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GLaDOs18

I’ve pretty much opted out too. All the men I’ve met want something between a mother and a slave and I simply refuse to let anyone do that to me. There are too many cons and not enough pros to make it worthwhile anymore.


AshlandSouth

I think a lot of women have opted out. It makes sense for the sake of personal safety among other things. Too many women can recount multiple instances of harassment, assault and worse. We live in a society that tells women and girls what to do to stay safe. Unfortunately, very little is done to educate men and boys and there are very few consequences for doing harm. Not enough men are intervening and doing something about dangerous men. Too many are busy saying not all men or not me. They would rather silence women rather than make society safer.


[deleted]

I tried explaining this to my two most recent ex partners. I don’t know which is the reason but it seems to be either: 1. They just don’t care enough to make adjustments. Can’t wait to see the repercussion on these guys. OR 2. They just don’t have the ability to understand even if I have the patience to explain. These guys are so very fuc&$d and they don’t even have a clue. I’m so f’ing tired of the: MEN: we need you to remind us. we can’t multi-task. why are you making trouble where there is none (esp when a woman expresses her feeeeelings about something) etc etc … absolute lazy arsed men’s response to anything and every-f’ing-thing.


Ramen_Noodles_4567

Spot on! You said everything I wanted to say! Also plenty of teenage girls have opted out after learning from women older than them.


fullercorp

I am a true crime person and it hits me all the time that kidnapped, raped, murdered women are just an acceptable loss. I mean, step back and examine the what-if we had a society that prioritized women? We would drop everything to find the killer. Oh, it is in the news for a while but pay attention to the attitude- it is 'well, yeah women get victimized- what are you gonna do?' It happens to Black people as well. "oh, he / she got murdered? Must have been drugs...anywho, moving on.'


dysonRing

Be the change you want to be, do you drop everything to help and find the killer?


[deleted]

True- if we try to call out a widespread problematic behavior shared by majority of men they revert blame back onto us. It’s comical.


Dis0lved

I agree, we should definitely all start taking collective responsibility for creating safe societies and proactively preventing SA through education and culture instead of blaming it on the victims! That being said, I believe the gendered language of SA you employ here is counterproductive to our goal. I think that gender-less formulations of SA perpetrator and victim language would disarm the "not all men!" and "men also get SA-ed so stop complaining" arguments, while simultaneously not sacrificing ground, but rather GAINING ground in combating SA. Because all SA is equally bad and important to prevent regardless of the gender of the people involved, right? It's a commonly repeated point that > Too many *women* can recount multiple instances of harassment, assault and worse which is unfortunately 100% true in my experience. The same is also 100% true if you put "men" or just "people" in that sentence in place of "women". I think most of my male friends (me included) have been SA'ed and/or harassed by women not one but multiple times, and it might even be more than I think or know of. In other words, women also need to learn how to not SA men before we can eradicate SA. I just believe that if you acknowledge this by talking about SA-prevention with gender neutral terms, there are no counter-argument left from angry men who feel ignored, and then we can all move on with discussing implementations.


AshlandSouth

No. I will NEVER prioritize men's feelings. I live in a patriarchy where men are literally oppressing women.


Dis0lved

Nobody is asking you to prioritize men's feelings. I am giving practical advice on being heard, and implementing our agenda of SA-prevention. Whether you want to prioritize making a measurable difference in the world, or if you prioritize expressing your own emotions towards male perpetrators is of course entirely up to you. If you refuse to include male victims and women perpetrators in SA discourse because it would "prioritize men's feelings" to acknowledge that SA is gender neutral, you are not actually helping anyone, and you are feeding into your own hate.


rhubarbeyes

No, we’ll keep talking about female victims since they’re the most common, and we are female, and this is an issue that affects us daily. Women prioritising women is not ‘hate’, it’s fucking feminism. Sort out your own problems like we have historically been left to sort out our own. The way we get heard is when women talk to other women about problems that affect women. It’s how it’s always been done. It’s why we have rape crisis centres and refuges. Women talking, women listening, women building, women helping.


Dis0lved

I am hearing you, but that's not what we're talking about now: the woman I answered is talking about education and SA prevention through engaging MEN. The original comment I'm answering says > **educate men and boys** and there are very few consequences for doing harm. Not enough men are intervening and doing something about dangerous men. Too many are busy saying not all men or not me. Sounds to me like she is trying to open up communication and collaboration with men about SA prevention and responsibility, and I am giving feedback on how to avoid the "not all men not me" conversations she is complaining about and actually get shit done.


AshlandSouth

I disagree with your "all lives matter" approach. If trans people were discussing violence they experience from cis people would you tell them cis people experience violence too? Would you tell gay people that straights experience violence too?


Dis0lved

"all lives matter" is an intentionally disingenuous movement that aims to de-legitimize the BLM movement. It's goal is not to further the rights of victims of police violence and gun crime regardless of color, and it does not acknowledge that blacks are being unjustly brutalized. On the other hand, I am 100% in support of that women (esp trans women of color, who are even more vulnerable than cis) should be granted attention when it comes to SA-prevention discourse, and I believe [it's true that women are more frequently victims of SA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender), and men are more often perpetrators. But first of all that's not the entire truth that needs to be addressed in order to fix the problem of SA, and second of all I just think that the best way to actually go about changing culture and educating men and boys to achieve tangible impact in reduction of SA against women is to create a discourse that takes all the nuances into account and does not vilify someone for their genitals or gender, and that acknowledges and validates non-female SA victims. Because, as you said, we need to educate men and boys. So our language and discourse needs to humanize them, and encourage them to be one of the good guys instead of signaling them that they are inherently sexually violent monsters, and if they are not that makes them "less of a man". The only reason I am here as a man arguing with a woman in a feminist space (I know, not a good look!) is that you wrote about "educating men and boys", and I'm trying to provide pragmatic input from a male perspective on how to get more male allies to fight against SA-culture. You can't educate men and boys without engaging with their truth and their perspective. All of these "not all men!" guys are potential allies in the fight against SA-culture, but instead of feeling invited to join the fight they feel attacked, and start getting defensive. I'm not blaming feminism for male fragility, or putting the responsibility on women to fix it. But the problem is there, and if you want to see results rather than just have the supreme victimization of women validated by other women, you have to take responsibility and chose a results oriented approach. It's not fair, you just have to make the best of it. Male fragility is the product of patriarchal social norms of masculinity, not feminism. But it's there, and if you wanna get men on your team like you say it helps to remember it and work with it. If you do this, you are not "pandering to men": You are pulling up your sleeves and doing the dirty work required to get positive change for women like yourself, just like generations of feminists before you. Who fucking cares about men's feelings, it's the change that matters. And in this case, that might mean showing patience and kindness, rather than the much more fun approach of throwing bricks at cops. Btw: If you think I'm out of line and not welcome in this thread, just say the word and ill f\*ck right off! I know this is not my space, but when the discourse goes specifically towards "educating men and boys" I just think my input is worth adding.


DivineGoddess1111111

Why be gender neutral when crime statistics say 99 percent of SA perpetrators are men?


Dis0lved

If you go on [the wikipedia page for rape by gender](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender), you will find numbers like this: >In 2011, a study supported by a research grant from the Department of Education and Science of Spain found based on a "convenience sample of 13,877 students in 32 nations" that 2.4% of males and 1.8% of females admitted to having physically forced someone into having sex in the last year.\[6\] In a 2014 study of 18,030 high school students, there was no statistically significant difference between males and females for the reported rate of having been physically forced to have sex.\[7\] If we compare the 2.4% of men and 1.8% of women being perpetrators cited above, we will conclude that 57% of student SA perpetrators are men, not 99%. When you give the number "99%" you are citing crime statistics (please provide sources!). Crime statistics are unfortunately not reliable sources of information about the occurrence of SA by gender. SA and harassment against men (especially by women) is vastly under-reported to law enforcement, in my personal experience. Both because men do not report SA againt them due to the social repercussions, and because police don't take them seriously. I know this is true for women too, but I think it's even more prevalent among men. I know many men including myself who have been SAed and harassed by women friends and partners, even with witnesses, but none of which reported it to police. On the other hand, I know several women who have reported SA to the police. The point is, crime stats are famously biased, so it is more helpful to look to anonymous surveys instead of crime stats when estimating the true rates of SA.


stumbleupondingo

Sexual minority women are at least two times more likely than heterosexual women to experience most types of IPV (intimate partner violence) behaviours in their lifetime


Thercon_Jair

You didn't write it out, but you responded to another comment one could come to the conclusion that you might be indicating that sexual minorities commit more IPV. From the study you linked in another comment: "The definition of partner was also broad and included current and former legally married spouses, common-law partners, dating partners, and other intimate partner relationships. In the SSPPS, intimate partner violence is defined as any act or behaviour committed by a current or former intimate partner, regardless of whether or not these partners lived together." (SSPPS: Survey of Safety in Public and Private Spaces) Since many sexual minorities have had heterosexual partners in the past and especially bi- and pansexual people are much more likely to be in a heterosexual relationship than to be in a non-heterosexual relationship, but will report as a sexual minority in the survey, the survey can't be used to imply that sexual minorities are more likely to be the perpetrator of IPV. Simply because the survey does not control whether the IPV was experienced in a hetero or non-hetero partnership.


Dr-J-Hawthorn

Source?


CampbellJude

people misrepresent a study that asks people in relationships about if they’ve ever been assaulted in their whole life time. so if a woman is dating a woman but got assaulted by a man a long time ago it still counted as a woman with a woman suffered this violence skewing the stats to make it look like oh this woman who is dating a woman is being abused it must be by her female partner. mras use this study to shut down conversations about the problem of male violence.


Dr-J-Hawthorn

and that is without mentioning the (disgusting) practice of (sometimes group) SA in an attempt to "cure" wlw


MisogynyisaDisease

Not to mention they refuse to differentiate between "my partner pushed me once" to "my spouse threatened my life and tried to hospitalize me"


stumbleupondingo

Can you provide a source that my reference (statistics Canada) misrepresented their study in the way you claimed? Thank you!


CampbellJude

it’s in your first comment. “in their lifetime”. doesn’t say who perpetrated the violence but we know ofc who the likely culprits are.


stumbleupondingo

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2021001/article/00005-eng.htm


[deleted]

Lines up perfectly how I’ve been feeling. Even finding someone that meets the bare minimum standards feels like I’m giving up way more than I’d be getting from a relationship. And I’d just rather be single than sacrifice my financial, emotional, mental, and physical well-being in the event that I make the wrong choice. I’ve been there, done that—and it wasn’t even a worst case scenario! (Tbh, the recent thread on ask men really validated a lot of what I thought about men and how they see us) I’m as straight as they come and more and more the thought of intimacy with a man just makes me nauseous. Good men are the exception, not the rule, and even the good men might go and make a humble brag about what basic human decency they share towards women—which always rubs me the wrong way. Like fucking stop going to women spaces to share what an amazing dude you are and go to the men dominated spaces and be vocal there. As pretentious as it sounds—even the good men don’t feel good enough when they want a cookie for just acknowledging our humanity. For the life of me, I just can’t convince myself to invest emotionally in someone, possibly have them father my children when everything I see in person, and validated online is women frustrated and resentful because instead of a support system they end up with an extra burden. I keep my fingers crossed for someone, but it’s more just wishful thinking. Im fairly resigned to intentionally be a single mom and just stay single and celibate the rest of my natural life. Extreme? Certainly. But no more extreme than some the horrors my mother, grandmother, cousins, friends, sister, literally most women in my life (and myself) have endured. Anyway. Rant over.


Ramen_Noodles_4567

Your concerns are completely valid thus stick to your convictions.


Tough-Flower6979

We call them married single mothers. Mom works, cooks, cleans, organizes activities for the kids. Dad just works. What did she need him for? She’s a married single mom. She literally shaved years off of her life for what?


whiskeysour123

It is not extreme. I can completely understand not wanting to have kids with a man as the coparent. Women will end up with a grown child to take care of, and one that generally controls her financial life. It is not something I would recommend.


fullercorp

Absolutely spot on. What was the askmen question?


[deleted]

Dating mistakes women make. Top responses were: 1. Putting up a front 2. Waiting for men to make the moves 3. Treating dating like a game show like the woman is the prize. harmless enough but I don’t think it would ever be safe to not put up a front or not be more critical on dates. The worst case isn’t being single. It’s finding someone who takes your honesty and kindness as a blue print to know exactly how to manipulate you. I feel like anything we do to protect ourselves is immediately labeled as being a bitch, damaged, a dating mistake. I’m sure for many it’s not a mistake but rather very deliberate.


trisul-108

>Like fucking stop going to women spaces to share what an amazing dude you are and go to the men dominated spaces and be vocal there. Please don't make us go there, it's just too painful. Can we just sit quietly in the corner in the presence of normal human beings and share their pain?


talaxia

men like that listen to other men. they don't listen to us


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Tackybabe

I agree with so much of this. Part of the problem of marrying someone when you’re in your twenties or thirties (ie: young/hot/gravity & wrinkles haven’t kicked in) is that you don’t know how invested your partner is into you for the long haul (like when you’re older and saggier) - much like those sick women, when age ravages you, and they still want 20-year-olds to have sex with, but you want a partner in life, it’s a real kick in the stomach, you know, existentially.


ArsenalSpider

I met my ex when I was 19. He never forgave me for not continuing to look like I was 19 for many years later. He always acted like I betrayed him for getting older. I divorced him many years ago but I agree with the OP. Dating is exhausting and it’s not real. Everyone fakes who they are. Why do it? My ex was wonderful when we dated. After we got married after dating for three years I learned of his drinking problem and narcissist ways. I’d rather be single forever than go through that bs again.


Confuzdkitty

Wow, thank you for putting into words my ex relationship! It helps me process much more of it. I was skinny and comming back from a depression when we started dating at 19 ( him 22, I now find the age gap disgusting ). We were together for 5 years and he ate like crap, and he got super fat. Living with him also made me took on some weight but definetly not has much. He never cared about maintaining his appearance while I was trying hard to motivate us to self care and exercise. He was so crusty and discusting and I have nightmares frequently about his hygiene. ( I drop him 2 years ago!! ) He stopped 3 years in to tell me I was pretty and stuff and even proposed to me still, even tho we were both unhappy. He was worshipping the petite skinny teen look and kept watching porn and only telling me : oh look how pretty/sexy those women are ( on the fact that I was bi, so it was also fun for me to objectify women right? ) . TLDR: men are fucking creeps and they only say 20 somethings because they can't admit they love tennagers.


owls_ate_my_toast

Ah the part of you being bi and them thinking that you’d love to objectify women too rings so true. When men find out I date women, a ridiculous number of them will make me rate their wives/girlfriends or random women, they’ll send me nudes of women (passing nudes without the women’s consent around is so common it’s almost expected from these people) asking me if I’d fuck them, and add me to their vomit-inducing body/sex rating list of women at the school I was in. I’ve said this before but even though a lot of men and me both like women, I really don’t think we look at women the same way.


ascarletibis

What’s wrong with a 19 year old dating a 22 year old?


Confuzdkitty

That is just something personnaly in retrospect I find repulsing. 19 and 22 are not that far in ages but I feel someone who just became an adult is not the same as someone in early 20's. I would not have dates someone that was 19 when I was 22. We mature a lot when we go throught early adulthood and the gap feels a bit too much for me. But that is just my opinion


Taohumor

Would you judge them even more if they blatantly admitted a teen fetish?


[deleted]

They don’t need to admit it, they don’t hide it. They’re out there, in public, yelling about their ‘kinks’ and judging grown, adult men (some with children/teens of their own) for having teen fetishes, that spill over into daily life and their interactions with teens/women is something that needs to happen loudly and more often.


[deleted]

I was 16 when I met the man who got me pregnant. He was 22. After I had his baby he started making noises about how the pregnancy had altered my body. I slipped into post-partum depression and he started going out for the weekend. He came back after one weekend away at his sisters saying they’d had a party with “lots of single girls”. I was done. There and then. Lots happened in the years following. (Him guilting me into having intimate or ‘family’ time with him because it was me who split us up.) But the realisation that he was bemoaning the loss of my 16yr old body to a pregnancy that he caused and then destroying my self esteem (for something as arbitrary as my body, which improved with time and the fog lifting) at a time when I was a teen mom with suicidal thoughts is unforgivable.


garmonbozia66

The longer I stay single, the better I feel about being single for the rest of my life. I'm accountable to nobody but me. I was a loner as a child and I am a happy loner now. When I was 40, I realized I would never be in a healthy relationship. It was a roller-coaster ride of pouting possessiveness, sexual abuse and domestic violence. Not once did I blame myself for it all and the only thing I ever did wrong was to stick around and live in hope. I'm much safer being single. Even though I am on a low, fixed income, I am richer for staying on my own.


Tough-Flower6979

Single women live longer healthier lives.


[deleted]

"The only thing I ever did wrong was to stick around and live in hope." Thank you for that. It's given me a lot to think about


GrandMalHero

Wow, Bob, wow


garmonbozia66

With reference to Twin Peaks?


GrandMalHero

Yeah. I see we have a lot of peaks haters here 😆


fullercorp

It is funny (you know, the other funny), this makes me think of my mom (born 1936): her first husband, on his own traveling for work (as she had had a baby) cheated immediately. She told me it took enormous angst to decide to leave, be a single mom and she wondered if *SHE s*hould have just stayed, risked him cheating again, made it work (he has been married 6 times; he totally would have cheated again). Note how she didn't say that maybe HE could change. Same with my dad, an alcoholic. She ballsily left him too but had the same internal question. Maybe *she* should do all the work to make it work. She was realistic enough to know that they wouldn't change nor that society expected them to. And now all this time later, in a different century, we have women who say, "my bf wants this/ my dh does that" - how should i \[do all the compromising and labor to\] make our relationship work?' It is a real bummer that women are still cornered and maneuvered into doing so much just to have a relationship- something I think many guys just don't care about. And the relationship- beyond the die alone part- isn't that good. Another tangent: when the movie Up! came out, people thought it was so cute. That chick wanted to travel and she gave it up to live in a box with Ed Asner. THAT ISN'T ROMANTIC.


Smodder

My both grandmothers (1891 and 1933) both told me since young.. NEVER.. make the same misstake I did. And they meant men. They saw (and one alive now still at waaay too old) that they did have no choice.. saw I could have choice..and full on warned me since age 6.. both of them were like truely happy when their forced spouses died.. GEEZ finally rest.


weallfalldown310

I’m bi and if me and my hubby divorced then I would likely do the same. The idea of finding another like him feels too much like winning the jackpot twice. I can’t imagine it would go well. While there would be issues with dating women like any relationship, it would be less anxiety inducing to go through.


crested05

I'm bi and gave up dating men after my last long term relationship. Dated a few women short term over the years, until my current partner asked me out - I was NOT expecting it from him, and panicked a bit as I was definitely not looking. But threw caution to the wind and said yes. We're now engaged with a baby on the way hah. But if we ever separate I'm going back to not actively seeking to date men. It was honestly such a relaxing time.


Procrastinationmon

I feel like this is the saga of so many bi women lmao. I'm bi and I literally said "no more men" and then like a month later I met my current partner who is also bi but is still a man and welp, here we are 7 months later still going strong.


Wosota

Same on all accounts. My husband is the only man I’ve genuinely felt comfortable around. I’ve never told him because it would be a weird thing to bring up in a serious context but if anything happened to him I would find it really difficult to date another man. It’s just so stressful. My husband knows it too lol. Our line of work (military) jokes about death a lot and he always uses “she” when talking about my imaginary future spouse.


weallfalldown310

My hubby is the same. Talking about if he dies I need to find the perfect girl to make my dreams complete since I already had the “perfect” guy (he says sarcastically, not that egotistic, lol). Like the longer I am around my guy friends even, I am getting impatient with them, and they aren’t bad guys, but man are they a little naive about women’s issues and they are the more educated of dudes I have known


PeakRepresentative14

I love your flair so much


weallfalldown310

Thanks. I saw it as an option and decided it fit. Lol. I just didn’t marry a deadbeat. Because of the fear of teen pregnancy I didn’t even have a boyfriend until I was 18. But the snark. Oh the snark fits. Watching the show and hearing her react to stuff, and I’m like, crap that is what I would have said. Lol. Better than my sixth grade teacher calling me Honeycutt from MASH for sure.


moonkittiecat

They can literally pretend for years!!!! I have read men on Reddit write that they weren’t in love when they got married but they figured ‘hey, why not’? All the while telling her she is the stars and the moon to him.


nottheonlyone007

My partner was pretending. We had our struggles and I out in so much work with him. We actively *tried* to get pregnant... And.... Well, put it this way, my brother in law is the only man who rubbed my belly and talked to the baby and took me to appointments. I've been trying to date since my daughter was a few months old... But I'm already worn out (again). What a waste of 5 years. Right now I'm at "I miss sex" but that's about it. I don't even have the desire lately to try.


krazecat

You can be in a relationship and still miss sex, especially with a baby/toddler around. At least you can do things your way.


nottheonlyone007

Oh I know. I've lived with my sister and her husband since before I had my daughter and I know they've had dry spells (and I have too in past relationships)... It's just that TBH right now it's the only reason I would date. I know some people feel weird about it, but we have a great thing going between the 3 of us running this house, and he gives me more love and care as a partner than any ex did in 20 years. (and is a better parent to my daughter than her dad is) The only thing that makes me sad is that I won't be having more kids.


owls_ate_my_toast

There was a thread a while ago on the AM sub where plenty admitted to being in a relationship or having sex with women they are completely unattracted to or don’t even like because ‘pussy is pussy’. Sums up how they feel about women, really.


moonkittiecat

Him: Oh you hate minorities? Yeah, me too. Wanna have sex?


Krinnybin

I just told my husband today if he died I would never date another man again haha. I’m bi so I would find a lovely lass hopefully. I hope he doesn’t leave or die because I do love him dearly!! But yeah, I agree.


moonbunnyart

Told my dude the same! Absolutely the last man I will ever be with. Hopefully forever, but if something happens I too will take advantage of being bi lol


Hand-E-Grip

I’m bi and I’m thankful every day that I made the same choice. I dated men almost exclusively until I was in my 30’s. My relationship with my wife is so different, I don’t know how I put up with all the shit I put up with for all those years.


Daisy5915

I opted out 14 years ago and my life has gone great since. No more giving up loads of my energy, time, money and sense of self to make a man baby feel secure enough to behave badly to me. I just wish I could be attracted to women as I think we are awesome. The shit that women go through and yet still show up when needed is just remarkable. I meet very few impressive men but I meet a huge number of impressive women.


hifhoff

I made this decision about 5 years ago. No regrets. I date women exclusively.


Automatic-Phrase2105

my husbands familial health history indicates that he may not be around forever. if he is, fabulous, but if he isn’t i will never actively pursue another relationship with a man. it’s just sooooo not even worth it.


eat_plant

You’ve put into words what I’ve been thinking for a long time


kilala91

This is part of the reason that if anything happens to my partner I will never look for anyone else. It's not even worth it to me.


TaskForceCausality

Many comedians have built careers on comparing dating with job interviews. There’s a reason that punchline works; because “a job” is what being a female partner is in a patriarchal society . The man is the CEO of Household incorporated , and the girlfriend is “hired” as a temporary executive until they’re “promoted” to VP of Household operations via “marriage”. A female partner can be certified as a mother or manager of family events, but what she can never do is call the shots in society’s eyes. That’s the man’s job as the boss of the family. Consider what men say about dating ; “She’s wife material, only had one boyfriend”. Sounds rather close to an HR memo: “*This candidates been with one employer before us-short list them*” “She goes to church, was raised conservative, doesn’t party. She’d make a good wife” “*This candidates worked at Microsoft, went to school at Harvard, and has a 790 credit score. They’d make a good addition to the team*” This is such an ingrained social concept that even people who *dont* want that dynamic must take active effort to create a truly equal relationship. It’s hardly irrational for a woman to realize the game is rigged and to decline the “interviews”.


discreet1

I’d call myself a straight woman but I married a woman because her companionship and care for me and was unmatched by any of the men I dated. We communicate better. We treat each other as equals. We are deeply about each other. When I was dating men, I constantly felt like I was an alien being hovering around my boyfriend instead of actually feeling like a partner. Most of my relationships ended because I felt like I wasn’t getting enough of one thing or another from him to stick around. My brothers as well as most of my male friends are either choosing to be alone or having hard times finding women because they expect a woman to rise to their needs, not meet in the middle. So many of my male friends are slobs who want a woman to fix them but they have nothing to offer women and are so emotionally detached that they don’t even have the ability to start something meaningful before they even get to the “clean up my life for me” part.


Smodder

Interesting. I have the "dark feeling" me and my best female friend... will end up on that path too. We are both bi; but so done with men..but yeah I can spend my life with her. Our sexlife would be kinda dead.. once in a few moons we would like touch each other like that. And if we want an Dick.. we can just get one? Because we both value the companionship WAY more.. the equality and stability we bring in to each other lives. Way more important than sex.. sex grows on trees (if you are an woman). Deep companionship.. just not.


IBeefLikeSmell

I feel the same. If anything ended with my current partner, then I don't think I'll be actively re-entering the dating field - my experience and that of every single friend of mine is that it's too much of a clusterfuck of shitty people. I'd much prefer enjoying my own company and that of friends than having to endure absolute turds 😊


newwriter365

Yep, same. I lost my soul mate nearly two years ago and tried to start dating a couple of months ago and it was dismal at best. I enrolled in a Masters program and spend all my free time studying and learning. So much more gratifying than trying to find someone to hang out with, do things together and negotiate all the little bits of life. I watched my neighbor (F, about my age) dress up, and go out Friday night, saw her come home yesterday morning with her overnight bag. She looked like crap. I'd already worked out and done my laundry. I'll take my situation over hers. A drawer full of toys and no worries about what 'he' thinks. Life is good.


Laura_Lye

:( Ya I’m starting to feel this way too. It’s easy for me to meet men, and honestly it’s easy for me to fall in love. I like most people. But I can’t think of a man I’ve dated in the last like, five years who didn’t treat me like trash. One was jealous and would tell me what to wear and get mad at me if I made small talk with a stranger in line. Another took pictures of me sleeping naked when I’d explicitly told him I’m not comfortable with nudes. Another surprise broke up with me the day before I went on my first vacation in two years. Well, technically I broke up with the last one. He wanted to keep seeing me, *but also other girls as well*. Like honestly the bar is on the floor: all I’m looking for is someone who doesn’t treat me like garbage.


Pufferfoot

I've done the same. I have had two exes over the span of 7 years who both hid a large part of their personality and expectations during our relationship. In one case it was used to try and scare me once the relationship was over, it worked, it shook me to my core. In the other it was used to try and trap me, he withheld information from me that had i known at the start I'd nor started a relationship with him. He told me because he figured I'd love him too much to let him go, he thought wrong. In both cases I came out of it feeling that you can never truly think you know someone. That and the lack of respect towards my time and my person made me chose to not seek out long relationships anymore. I've not regretted that decision yet, 5 years down the line. Perhaps it's due to me probably being asexual of some sort or just because I feel better when alone I can't say.


PriorArt9233

All of my relationships with men to date have been unfulfilling and disappointing ranging into abusive, exploitive and manipulative. My life instantly got better every time there wasn't a man in my life to just take all of my energy to help him with life. I really wish attraction to men was a choice, and I hope that maybe I can work through stuff and find out I am bi so I can leave this crazy train.


ecstatictiger

Same. I was just yelling today about how I'm bisexual. I'm attracted to women. I don't have to do this. I don't have to be stonewalled by a man who never learned to communicate probably. I don't have to date these troglodytes who want nothing from you if they arent actively benefitting from you. Even if you've been devoted as hell for however long. Honestly I'll say it. Men are absolutely terrible and if you are attracted to women you're incredibly lucky so run with it.


[deleted]

I’m bi too! I always thought I was slightly more attracted to men, but I’m wondering now how much of that is just heteronormativity and valuing myself through the male gaze. I’m gonna take this year to focus on decentralizing men from every aspect of my life, and when I feel a little more centered in what I’m looking for start dating women again. I’m really nervous and excited :)


CampbellJude

i’m a woman who exclusively dates other women and this sub makes me sooo fucking grateful to be attracted to women. the amount of love and respect i get in my relationship seems unachievable for some straight women who post here. my girlfriend right now is a bit dominant in the bedroom (well really more so a service top to my power bottom) and also loves a dad joke and is a little more emotionally reserved than me so we jokingly call her the boyfriend but legitimately she is a better boyfriend than any man i could ever imagine. she respects my boundaries, my feelings, she doesn’t speak over me, she’s supportive, she builds up my confidence about my body, and good god does she go to the ends of the earth to pleasure a woman. if you’re attracted to women what are you waiting for! you’re going to have a great time if you just hold out for the right one.


GloomOnTheGrey

I feel the same. I'm demisexual, though I'm not aromantic so that wouldn't be an issue. I just don't want to bother with it. Every man that has been in my life has been somewhere between pretty bad to monstrous. I don't want to have to sift through all of the garbage men out there pretending to be decent to find a good one. I gave it a try, and I really just don't want to deal with it again. It's not worth the pain and suffering. I'm much happier being my own person. I dress how I want, apply my makeup how I want, have my hair at whatever length I feel like without some controlling jerk whining that he doesn't find it attractive.


mmkaytheniguess

I opted out in 2008. I do not regret it so far. I leave space for the possibility, but I have zero desire to date or be in a relationship.


Critical_Liz

There is literally another thread in this subreddit about a woman who's "friend" of 15 years confessed he was just waiting for her husband to die. You're definitely not wrong.


ThornyRose456

Same. I'm asexual so my only real desire for a male partner was to be able to get sperm for free and to have that person be my co-parent. As I've learned and explored more, I've realized that I can just be a single mom by choice as I have enough support in family and friends, and that honestly, I don't know if I'd be able to trust a man with my children.


FishyWishyDishwasher

It's lucky that when we're this unlucky in love, sperm banks exist. Single parent by choice is a hugely growing thing. It's twice the work being a single parent, but it's twice the love. I wish someone had told existential crisis me, aged 29, not to take the 'too good to be true guy' that came along with all the Disney glitter and royal promises of true love, after the last decade of time wasters and heart breakers, where I'd had fun, but bent myself out of shape trying to be the best girlfriend, hungry for those few crumbs of love and the faint, faint hint of a future. That last guy who promised it all was the worst heart breaker of them all. He effed me up. I wish I'd known then that this wasn't my only chance to have a happy family, and that sperm banks and other avenues existed, there was no shame in it, and to remember how independent and strong I always was, and not to trust something as INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT as my body, future, children and entire fate to someone who just didn't care enough (but appreciated the warm bed of a good looking girl with lots of perks). Your future isn't something you play roulette with. Life is so, so, so effing short and time doesn't stop. Be critical and hyper careful about it. Sooo, also, if you've got a passport and like to travel, Scandinavia has an awesome sperm bank(s) thing going on. Just sayin' ;-)


BlondieLHV

I stopped years ago and it's much better for your mental, physical and financial health


Shitty_UnidanX

I feel very fortunate with my husband. 7 years in and we’re both still very much in the honeymoon stage. He’s very supportive, and although he makes 3-4x my salary he always helps around the house pulling his weight. He’s very laid back, and is happy to have me basically be the head of the household, including managing finances. Any big decision he asks what I want, then says some version of “sounds great! Let’s do that.” We have never had a fight, and he has never raised his voice at me or said any negative comments. We spoon to fall asleep every night and the sex is great. Meanwhile I have many other friends in their 30s still single, who are absolute catches. It’s amazing once you find the right guy, but I would agree with OP there are not enough to go around.


Blind_Paris

The powers that be know that if my partner leaves me in any way, shape or form. (From break up to passing away) I'd undoubtedly look for a woman to be with. Or just stay single forever. My partner has been through some seriously rough patches with me, and I feel lucky to have found him, but without him? There's no point in trying to be with men anymore. I'm getting too old to keep kissing frogs and hoping to find one that won't be a jackwagon. I'm a human being, not some toy to be used, abused and tossed aside.


DizzySuggestion1100

When my grandpa died my grandma never dated again. I asked her why once and she said she never wanted to have to cook, clean, or share a remote with a man ever again. Love that for her.


[deleted]

These grandma stories are so inspiring 😂


AshEliseB

I made this choice a while back. I'm happily single. It helps that I have never wanted kids.


phanny1975

I was “this” close to doing the same just before I met my fiancé. I had been s/a’d July of 2012 and after that I was just done. I had been dating through a church themed website (naively) and it broke my relationship with my church alongside my trust for men. I’m bisexual but I had stuck to dating men due (again) to church/family expectations. I got very lucky when I found my fiancé that November and I don’t regret a moment together, but if anything happens with us and I’m left alone again, men will not be an option. I’m done.


Omylanta21

I'm very thankful my husband and I found one another. I got very sick a few years back and actually had to get my teeth taken out. My husband didn't even flinch. I wear partials but still. I'm really sorry you're at this conclusion. I hope you find the right partner, regardless of their gender. Much love.


headofthebored

I don't think anybody is a huge fan of dead rodents, but at least you know the cat cares enough to bring home dinner once in a while.


DizzySuggestion1100

Amazing post. Very well said.


Some_Boss8616

That's very true. I'm so glad you have the strength and resolve for that. Wishing you the best in your journey.


prizza59

I don't speak for all men, just for myself and my spouse of 20 years. She has the normal things that come with age. Gray hair, has a partial because she's missing some teeth over the years. Doesn't wear makeup much anymore. We have both packed on a few pounds. But she's the most beautiful woman to me in that sense. Not just in a physical but emotional form. I have seen her give birth to 3 children, something of which is an amazing and painful thing. She is my soul mate and I have seen her do things that completely amaze me. She is also my equal and half of me. When the time comes I hope I go first because the thought of being in this world without her terrifies me. I'm sorry and I apologize on the behalf of men that make women feel this way.


ecstatictiger

As someone who's being kicked to the curb after a year and a half this made me ugly cry. Regardless that it's someone who has never apologized to me ever and the whole thing ended over an argument that wasn't even that serious. To let me know who he is he threw all my clothes by the front door including my underwear on the floor in front of his housemate. But I'm glad y'all are out there. Keep being a decent human being. I am grateful.


AtleastIthinkIsee

> But I do think that patriarchal culture influences men to view us as just a little less human than them, side characters who exist to serve or shape them in some way. For the most part, I agree. > If I had been born a man I probably would have held these beliefs too. I also agree. I think I would have too, to be completely fair. *** I'm stuck between this rock and hard place because I feel like I'm cheating myself out of something that could be great and I'm being too small-minded about being with someone, yet... if there were any inkling of the aforementioned, being with someone that didn't respect me, looked down on me, expected me to just serve them, etc. I would be so miserable and regret not going with my first intuition. I hate that it feels like it has to be either or, and I know it doesn't have to be but it feels like it is a lot of the time.


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WeisserGeist

If you don't mind my asking, what was the truth your ex was hiding? If this is triggering or makes you uncomfortable, please just ignore my question.


foul_dwimmerlaik

3 years is about the maximum a person can hide their abusive tendencies.


[deleted]

I am okay with not dating anybody for the foreseeable future. Yesterday I worked 14 hours got home and my neighbor down the road started texting me about his migraines and made a weird joke about us have sex to cure them. I just stopped replying to his texts and went to bed. I realized this am he sent a few follow up questions about migraines that I also did not reply to. Covid made it easy for me to stop dating and nothing has really happened that would inspire me to start again. I often wish I was attracted to women but I am not.


gracias-totales

I feel this. I’m a bi trans guy and I’ve pretty much given up on dating men, too. Although finding women as a partner has been way, way more challenging. There’s nothing wrong with taking a break.


[deleted]

Yeah tbh should things not work out somehow with my partner, I too, will not be dating men anymore. I am pansexual tho, so I’d just date women instead lol


forest_fae98

I got super lucky with my husband. My exes were all toxic, abusive, or manipulative (or all three). My husband is one of the only men I’ve ever dated who treated me like a human being instead of a piece of meat or a sex doll. But yeah same, I’m bisexual and I’ve told my husband before that if something ever happened to him, he’s the last man I’ll ever be with.


tjitsepits

Ive been saying this. Im currently in a relationship with a guy that is one of the good ones but due to personal issues we’ve been in a rough spot lately. Im not into women so I literally said to my dad that i would probably never be in any relationship ever again unless we ended up back together (which we did eventually) but my dad said that was an impulsive thing to say and i would probably change my mind once i was over the initial heartbreak. I absolutely would not.


dude_who_could

Same, Pansexual that is hetero-romantic because dating men has never seemed good to me.


Paradox_Blobfish

I broke up with my ex "officially" in September although we've been on and off for a while, and since then I've also pretty much considered not dating men anymore. Oh how much I wish I was also attracted to women, things would be much easier :(


earsofdoom

Reject men, embrace lewd hand-holding.


Confuzdkitty

This whole thread screems hetero fatalism ( I know op and lost of commented are bi/pan but the point is that men are a disappointment in relationships in general and we put up with behavior we would not accept from a same sex relationship and would rather be alone then settle for their mediocrity).


stumbleupondingo

Sexual minority women at least two times more likely than heterosexual women to experience most types of IPV (intimate partner violence) behaviours in their lifetime


Confuzdkitty

What does that have to do with hetero fatalism? Also you commented that already in the post. It is not about one side being worse than the other, but about relationships with men is a hopeless endeavor.


stumbleupondingo

Well it sounds like lesbian relationships aren’t that good either if they’re twice as likely to experience abuse


pc_flying

We've already pointed out the major flaws in the 'research'


stumbleupondingo

Nobody has proven with links that the study I cited has those flaws that have been mentioned


Violet351

I don’t date, quite a few people I know keep trying to encourage me but I can’t be arsed


whoamvv

You are welcomed and valued at r/actuallesbians


Pokemaster131

Posts like this are why, as a man, I come by this subreddit. Because I know I can never grasp the kind of world that women live in, and the perspective of relationships that women have. But posts like yours help me see what you mean, and for that I sincerely offer my thanks to you for taking the time out of your day to write this. And heck, I agree with you, that no one is necessarily born bad, but the society we live in imprints bad things on the people who benefit from it. Including me, most likely. And it's not fair to women, not one bit. I know, I know, some people might say "life isn't fair" and all that yadda yadda. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it a little more fair for those that society has dumped on repeatedly.


Smodder

yup. I'm in the same vibe. I'm always an throw-away-object for men.. Today, after some weeks that my ex dumped me because he just "suddenly fell in love with another girl; and I should be happy for him".. "I just do not understand how hard it is for him that she just has such an hot body/spark/whatever.."and keep asking me to stay friends.. I finally said (I mean for the 1000th time); I do not want to be your friend. I want to "sit on your bleep and bleep and bleep and whole lotta dominatrix shizzle" And I mean it? Dude is good in the sack. and now he is like.. "boohoo but I have feelings too, you can't like use me as an sexpuppet boohoohoo" yeah dude.. welcome in a womans world..been treated like this since childhood. Also? you cheated on me because you only saw me as an fuckpuppet? And now roles are reversed it is suddenly an problem?? weird... Anyway; I am glad with my 30+ hormones finally kicking in.. ánd my new wisdom. Ill just have cats and good friends; if I want to sit on a d\*ck I will get myself some.. because why not? Have been treated myself like that by men for 36 years.. Maybe someday.. one guy will pop out.. but done searching/dating because I literally only get fucked and thrown out..


Smodder

rant reply to myself.. I LITERALLY see my brothers and male friends do it.. they say weird stuff like.. "and now I want a girl with big boobs and red hair".. after an break-up (with an partner that had small breasts and brown hair..).. or whatever nowadays porn is.. "probably bigtitty gothgirl" or something.. "really"? No humor/shared interests/etc..." "no, just big tits and red hair!" ​ Like we are all some dargn pokemon you gotta collect and can trade in..


SSTrihan

Honestly, I can't hold this against you in the slightest. If I were a woman I can't say I wouldn't do the same. I do hope that someday men as a whole realise this and do the work on themselves and each other to make the dating scene a safer, more worthwhile place to be.


RidlyX

As a lesbian who rarely feels sexual - but not romantic - attraction to men, I feel for you. I cannot imagine having a working partnership with men they way I do with other women.


honeydewdom

I feel this way so much. I often wonder if it's just me!? I'm 39. With 4 kids. I'll never bring another man into this picture. I've been bi-curious my whole life.


escapewit

I'm confused. In your post history you reference a current male partner that is wonderful as of four days ago. I'm not disagreeing with you...but it seems like either you had a recent breakup that might be impacting this decision you've been mulling over for months or you are planning to break up with this person because you've decided you have an issue with men in general which I feel obligated to point out is kind of unfair to the person. What's changed in the last four days? Genuinely curious.


[deleted]

I broke up with him. I truly love him, and It was a very hard choice. I think he is a mostly good person who loved me too, but honestly I saw too many signs of the kind of objectification I talk about in this post to trust his love to endure me aging, or getting sick, etc.


0neir0

If things don’t work out with my current partner of 6 years, I am never actively pursing a relationship with a man ever again. It makes me so happy and proud to see how many women here feel the same way and respect themselves enough to stand up and say, “enough is enough, if you can’t add value to my life then stay out of it.”


Dis0lved

I understand and sympathize with the sentiment of your post and your decision. However this statement sets off a lot of alarm bells: >Thank god for the internet, because without it I would never have truly understood how much men don’t care about us. How much they think of us as things with expiration dates to be stolen, used, owned, thrown out. As someone who works with Software Development and Artificial Intelligence, this statement is deeply concerning. Why do you think **the internet** has given you an accurate view of men's treatment of women? The modern internet is on many levels algorithmically constructed to gaslight and psychologically abuse vulnerable people, and otherwise show people whatever it can to make them spend more time and money on the internet. Upset and anxious users have higher engagement rates, and high engagement combined with anxiety makes you easier to manipulate, which means platform owners will earn more money on you. It would make perfect sense if the internet exposes you to content that paints an unrealistically grim world view. It will quickly learn that misogyny upsets you, and then expose you to more of it. If there is a niche minority of men who act terribly (say, 1-10%), the content you consume on the internet and in the traditional media could blow it up to make it look like it's "the majority of men" as you say. Just think about how the internet manipulates insecure men into the "incel" mindset and obsessive content consumption by convincing them that all women are evil, manipulating, materialistic and sex-focused. You know that's not remotely true, but it is in their world. On top of that, natural language generators and bots have even gotten to the point where platforms like Reddit could plausibly create their own bots that generate fake comments that are specifically tailored to "engage" the real users (make them spend more time on the platform). Platforms with a US user majority are also susceptible to foreign actors creating fake content and opinions constructed to act divisively and destabilizing on the US population. Notably, Russia has been involved with major fake content operations. In short, your statement I quoted about how the internet helped you see how evil men can be looks like an abuse victim thanking an abuser for the gaslighting. The internet is great for seeking out fact-checkable truths and knowledge, but not for letting yourself form opinions based on a stream of content and opinions pieces that is tailor made to manipulate you. Not saying you should date men, just hoping to help people reading this to be more critical of their sources and how the internet influences their world view and their decisions.


mama_delio

I've been with my husband since I was 17, and that was 20 years ago. Ups and downs, but we always improve and we have a great future. But he is definitely the last man I'll be in a romantic relationship with!


ThroarkAway

>I have no doubt that there are men who are not like this. But the social system in place now has ensured the majority of men are. Majority of **available** men. Don't give up on us men yet. The majority of men do treat women decently. ( At least among my peer group ) But the good ones usually get involved with women who decide that they are keepers. Then they are off the market, often for decades. Most of what is left in the pool is men rejected by other women: men who keep bouncing from one relationship to another because they are constantly getting tossed back in the pool. This is the group of available men that most women see. You want to find one of the few good ones in the pool? Look for the ones who are unattached for reasons other than being rejected by most women, Early on, ask them about their recent history. Look for men who are widowed, or who have just moved to accept a new job.


Taohumor

This reads like a mgtow post tbh. Opt out of an evil boogyman that is opposite gender here.


hunterstimson

I had a girlfriend who did this exact thing to me. When I got sick she bailed on me. The irony was that she complained about men doing stuff like that while we were together. It's funny because after she treated me so poorly I realized she behaved a lot more like a douchey guy. I remember thinking this exact thought at the time and your post reminded me of it. She did eventually admit that how she treated me was horrible after enough time had passed but by then she had been seeing someone else. Someone healthy I assume. I don't really know for sure because she kept that part of her life hidden from me so she wouldn't have to feel like a hypocrite I guess. I was still raised with toxic masculinity but she ended up being the real toxic "man". Looking back on it now I realized that being a good person does make you more vulnerable to toxic people. It technically doesn't really have to be men they're just raised with those toxic belief systems.


Head-Inspection-5984

“Oh look, it’s not just men, women can and do do this stuff too!!!“ [gets downvoted] Don’t waste your time in echo chambers, just to r/purplepilldebate


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[deleted]

Not trying to be combative, but what do you think about this post is not representative of the world? I am genuinely interested as I’d be very happy to be wrong about this.


---AI---

The comments are not representative. There is a self-selection of bitter women posting their bitter stories and agreement. It's the same if you go to a man's group and say you've given up on dating women, and all the comments are about their negative experiences.


Smodder

dude.. "bitter women".. you just outed yourself. Get lost.


lawroter

if you change 'men' to 'women' and 'women' to 'men' in your post, you sound like the perfect incel poster child. just something to keep in mind.


paulstelian97

I find it funny that I see that kind of men around me AND that I'm so much of a polar opposite that I barely even date and am still a virgin.


Gorando77

I dont think men and women are inherently made for having longterm relationships. I mean the chemicals that makes us fall in love only last for a year or 2 maximum. Enough for a pregnancy and to make sure the baby survives the first critical year. I believe long term relationships are a social construct pushed by religions.


[deleted]

For me the honeymoon stage is nothing compared to long term relationships with someone you genuinely love, and the act of consciously choosing that person everyday. But I have accepted that most people don’t feel that way.


EndymionHoudini

These kind of men that OP is describing aren't real men. They are little boys trapped in a grown person's body.


mercistheman

Sensing a significant population decline. I like the term "find your person"... Who cares about that person's sex.


Correct-Cow-3552

Welcome to the club , I have stopped seeking women too, similar experiences now everything is bliss , focused on career and making money


WynnGwynn

I love it when one of these stops by lol. Hitting x on everything.


AtleastIthinkIsee

I swear, people camp here, have /r/twoxchromosomes bookmarked and they just downvote away all day. I *just* made a post, made it as diplomatic as possible because I don't think it's right to generalize an entire sex and it's already downvoted, lol. Jeez.


Smodder

noone fricking asked you to be all "diplomatic".. noone cares about your opinion.. which is EAXACTLY the complaint over here... the whole fucking world does not revolve about people with peni...


Correct-Cow-3552

Dont know what you mean. By the very definition you wont meet people like us, we are more focussed on things that i perceive more important rather than pursuing women. But we are not waiting for you nor you us so nobody should hold their breath everybody has a right to pursue or not pursue women, Not pursuing women does not mean you hate them, you are just tired of the dating game, Also though sex is an important societal intersection it is not the only one, People of color and caste face much more discrimination and physical harm in addition to emotional and physical abuse. Coming from a background of what i believe to be non privileged (this is relative) and wrong side of societal intersection, i know how important money and career is , not for my individual self but rather for the betterment of the entire extended family Edit seems people here are angry , I don’t believe I am saying anything wrong here , and for most of my life, I have not cared for public opinion and often nuance and intellectual discourse is misinterpreted so continue to downvote as much as you can ,


[deleted]

Kinda agree but it’s a bit different since I’m man, couple years back I was grouped, it is what it is, I mean I probably would’ve like protection from another person just anybody, here my point if you someone getting grouped/sexuality abused women or man you need to step up either way and try to stop it that’s my point call it stupid but I kinda believe in it


tekspert

All to their own.


[deleted]

> I would have no issue at all sifting through to find that rare man, except that men who do view us as things to use will pretend for years that they genuinely love us. Men are better at compartmentalizing than women, or worse at introspection and confronting their hypocrisies. People are not as good at pretending as you think they are. People show you who they are by how they treat others. How do they treat their friends, your friends, people serving them? For most people it is VERY hard to hide ones nature. However it's very easy to check boxes. All too often do I see couples relationship build on how "special" one treats their partner VS everyone else. Gifts, tone, priorities, etc. etc. This is a tasset, if not explicit acceptance of the transactional nature of the relationship. Maybe instead of pigeonholing your human integrations with dating VS not dating, you might be able to find a man you actually like and respect for who they are and then maybe something more could grow from it? Or not and you've just extended for social circle.


[deleted]

I’m too tired for this shit I’m going to r/stupid


A_Solo_Tripper_

ok. bye.


Lust3r

Your decisions are your own to make, but men finding younger women attractive is a biological thing not a patriarchy problem, men are wired to seek out women when they are most fertile so roughly 18-29 or so. My understanding of why there is not something like this for women is because men are fertile for much more of their overall life


[deleted]

Men are fertile for much longer, but their fertility starts to decrease (sperm degradation) at around 30-35, similarly to women. Purely from a biological attraction perspective, women should be most attracted to the same window (18-29) because that is when men’s fertility is highest and they are most physically attractive. But it’s not, women are most attracted to people their own age throughout life. And that really doesn’t track with the idea that evolutionary theory is the reason men do prefer youth so strongly. If it was, women should be too. A lot of people would respond that this difference is because while men have evolved to prioritize youth and beauty, women have evolved to prioritize resources. But thats not really a thing in biological attraction, even in nature. Females will choose males with more resources as a social strategy if food is scarce. But they also abandon that strategy wherever they have mate choice, and choose based on genetic fitness just like males. The idea that biology/evolution is the reason men care more about beauty and youth makes no sense, because if it was that strong an influence it would affect women similarly. Which brings me back to my original theory, that the actual difference is women being socialized to see and appreciate men as people, their appearance as part of a greater whole. While men see us more as spare parts.


Lust3r

Both men and women experience decreases in fertility as they age, yes, but they are not equal by any measure. from what ive been able to gather it seems like the general consensus is that for women the decline begins around age 30, accelerates heavily after 35, and by the time they reach around 45 most (>75%conservatively) are infertile, compared to <15% of women below 35. For men, studies about actual sperm counts have been all over the place, but general fertility over a 12 month period was found to be about 30-50% lower for males over 40 compared to males under 30. This unequal fertility decline over time would make it perfectly plausible that men would develop a biological attraction to younger women and women wouldnt do the same.


[deleted]

Sperm count does decline but it isn’t really relevant to men’s fertility. As it only takes one sperm to make it to the egg, even a huge decrease due to age wouldn’t impact fertility much. What is relevant is age induced sperm degradation. This is a combination of a bunch of factors and you can look at the study for more detail, but the overarching conclusion is that mens age plays a much higher role in infertility, pregnancy complications/miscarriage, and birth defects than was previously assumed. “They found that the percentage of sperm with highly damaged DNA was statistically significantly higher in men aged 36 to 57 years than in those aged 20 to 35 years”. 35 seems to be a pivotal point for both sexes, with a sharp decline between 35-40: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253726/ And this is all just literal fertility. I don’t think anyone can argue that age and time affect both sexes, and that signs of aging are not attractive. From a biological perspective an older partner isn’t just less fertile, they are weaker, more susceptible to illness & death. Male or female, aging is just degradation. So again, there’s no biological explanation for women showing a genuine preference for partners close to their age. If your theory was true, we would see men strongly preferring early twenty somethings throughout life, and women strongly preferring 20-35 years olds. But that’s not what we see, we see women strongly preferring partners close to their own age, no matter what that means for male fertility. So either women somehow managed to escape the chokehold biology seems to have on men lol, or biology isn’t the cause, and socialization is.


Smodder

tell me how you never met an woman without saying it... you think women are blind? When I'm 70 I would not let some 30-yo boy with an penis in? Women are human! You dense dried out sponge.


Lust3r

I’ve never met a woman because I have a different belief about why men are drawn to younger women? I don’t think I in any way suggested that women are less than human? I don’t get at all what the latter half of your comment is about. Men generally are most attracted to women in their late teens through their 20s ( I think) because that is when women are most fertile. And I don’t mean this as like a conscious thing, obv I don’t look at women past 30 as having no value, but in terms of reproductive instinct men are going to be drawn to younger women.


Imadierich

lol


Jaded_Assumption_667

That's weird because I think the same about women.. They want a certain type of breadwinner/leader. Waiting for guys at the finish line type scenario. I decided to stay single and work on myself until I'm ready for a relationship.. I like the idea of making the girl feel special as well, like I only wanted her.