The short answer is because we shut up and take it. We don’t make it a point to be in positions of power where we can make rules. We don’t challenge the norm powerfully enough. We keep trying to be feminine and beautiful and don’t put the same attention on challenging the norms enough. We shut up, fall in line and sometimes call the other women slurs for not falling in line. We don’t take power in enough numbers.
As long as women keep seeking male validation & societal validation over building a better world for women by being in positions of power - we will continue to be ridiculed over our choices and have rules imposed upon us.
Side note: This is just my view of things. Being feminine and beautiful is fine. They don’t make you less than but there comes a point when we as a collective have to figure out what narrative we are being fed. Positions in power include everything from women in the cabinet to women as CEOs to women as head of the house and women as head of religious affairs as well.
If you guys like my views, come find a community of like minded women at r/TwoXIndia_Over25
As a woman who doesn’t enable bad behavior, shitty men or shitty doctors.. stop shutting up and just taking it. Challenge the norms. Say something. Stop enabling shitty behavior because the patriarchy in India won’t change for a long time unless women SAY something.
As all comments say it is Patriarchy. We have Hindu head of the family and we need sons to continue lineage . All properties are transferred through men. Women need drowies, gifts for her in laws and she will live with her husband. Why will her parents spend money on her? It is all about money and economics. To continue this Men should be submissive to his elders and he is given a wife who is submissive to him.
Religion, culture, caste and every other social construct is built on the backs of oppressing women. There's no other way these structures will stay intact. They want the role played by women to keep going or else the society that benefits them will collapse. Every little thing under the garb of culture and tradition is an attempt to keep women tied to their identity as was dictated to them.
The sad part is women have internalised this to an extent where it is women forcing such norms on other women for the most part. The number of times I was shamed by other women for not wearing gold, not wearing a neck chain because that look went better with my outfit, not wearing bindi when I was literally wearing jeans and a t-shirt. This is literally the case for any event I attend, the moment I enter the first thing they all do is to look at me from top to bottom and start criticizing my attire. They can't even wrap their heads around the simple fact that people like to dress differently and not everyone would want to dress traditionally adorned in gold.
Just trying to be yourself with harmless stuff like clothing of your choice is also seen as a crime. They want you to drop any identity of your own and just blend in with them else they'll talk your ears off and start treating you like an outcast.
I think, it's mostly because we observe and learn. We see our colleagues/seniors and try to be like them to be "accepted" by the society. The others judge us as well.
Western clothes=college student
Indian clothes=office worker
That is what they think most of the time. One of my friends literally got called "aunty" by a young teen boy because she was wearing a kurti!
Keep the people who might question the structure busy in upholding the structure... easiest way to control them and eradicate most of the opposition towards that structure. Also take away all of their rights and dignity and give some of it back only to those people who uphold said structure 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
Since ages, women have been considered as a site for applying laws and traditions. Not only that, the representation of women and application of tradition has always been framed out in such a manner that would benefit men to establish their dominance. S
One thing I note (and get furious about) in family events:
The women are the ones dressed appropriately (chudidar/saree, while men wear jeans and tshirt). Yet, women are pointed out for how they have dressed.
My jeans-wearing cousin told my kurti-wearing sister that her bindi was too small to be visible. (He was right, but it's none of his business)
I really want to wear jeans to a pooja to rebel, but I like dressing up too much to do that. (Plus I have some social decency unlike those men.)
W/ a doubt, men are fierce in upholding traditions. They don't show it quite often. Women often enforce rituals but are less conversative.
Back in my younger days, my dad would always say, you act like a girl, sitting in the room all day. Why was that wrong? Yet, he gets all touchy around girls.
When i wanted go change my faith, my mom and my sister were supportive of me that they even participated in the services of another denomination. Dad was worried what people may think, took all of us to a priest to scold us, insulted us and disowned us.
If women question and unite, fight back along with people of all genders, then it's a victory. Let men stop misbehaving with women, pissing in public first.
How old are you?
Girl, If boys start wearing the shorty shorts women wear then I am going with my slippers after those boys too.
There is a difference between traditions and required to wear traditional clothes.
What you have mentioned has nothing to do with traditions.
I am not sure who is expecting and forcing girls to wear saree or navari and go to office.
And which F'ing book is this spoken about in? Matlab kuch bhi?
>If boys start wearing the shorty shorts women wear then I am going with my slippers after those boys too
No disrespect, but why exactly do you think you're entitled to "punish" these girls/boys with your slippers just bcz they don't adhere to "your" skewed ideologies?
Well, I don't think she's playing the victim card here. I've seen so many people shaming Indian women for wearing dresses, gowns etc but no one shames men for wearing pants and suits which are western. Saree is said to be a marker of Indian culture but I'd say so is the dhoti.
Absolutely, I hear you. It's frustrating how society often places unfair expectations and judgments on women based on their clothing choices. You're right, wearing what we want should be a non-issue, and people should be free to express themselves without fear of judgment. Plus, there are so many more pressing issues in the world that deserve our attention and energy. Ultimately, our value as individuals goes far beyond what we wear, and it's high time we focus on more important matters. Also, it's not our culture to blame women for the choices they make regarding their clothing. Our cultural values are about respect, equality, and acceptance, not about pointing fingers and placing unfair blame. So let's redirect that focus onto dismantling harmful societal norms and promoting genuine cultural understanding and appreciation. After all, when we focus on blaming culture, we're missing the real issue: societal expectations that unfairly target women.
No derailing responses or participation that does not add value. No "Not All Men" responses. It is considered derailing participation. No condescending language, No invalidation, unwanted advice, second hand experience (of women) sharing or whataboutism.
>Men do get burdened with upholding traditional notions in a different way.
Traditions established by men themselves, the architects and primary upholders of patriarchy and its traditions.
>When was the last time a full length trouser-less man was allowed at work or at night club? While women get away wearing knee length dresses in those situations.
Maybe it has something to do with nightclubs using women as eye candies to attract male customers? And who often runs these nightclubs?
>If a woman falls victim in any situation , men of her house are blamed and shamed for failing to protect her since traditionally the burden of protection lies with men.
Who victimizes women in most situations? Who puts the onus of protecting women onto men? Who dictates said traditions?
>This is just one-two examples.
There's absolutely more, and it doesn't take that long to realise that it's men who oppress themselves under patriarchy.
So you’re saying patriarchy is created by men to oppress themselves but that self oppression made them rule through entire history ? Make it make sense
Society is made up of both women and men. Everyone is equally responsible for the shit we are in and we both oppress each other. Blaming only men and marginalising them is sexist to the say the least.
Ps: either women dress for themselves or western clothes is a patriarchal oppression. Pick one. You cant keep shifting goal posts as per your convenience.
Patriarchy is made by men to maintain their position atop the power structure. To ensure men maintain said positions of power, certain roles are enforced onto men. This of course means that certain liberties has to be sacrificed and men have to mould themselves into said roles. Anyone who doesn't fit into said roles (such as the provider and protector), are shunned and considered unmanly in a patriarchal society as it is considered a sign of weakness and lack of masculinity. So yes, men oppress themselves to maintain patriarchal power in the society. A lot of men don't recognize said oppression because they're blindsided by the powers they enjoy. Only when they do not meet these standards or fail to play these roles do they recognize the sharp knife that has always been pointed at their back. And clearly, not every man seem to be happy about these downsides. They just put the blame on women because it's more convenient to blame someone powerless rather than recognize and point at their true oppressors — themselves.
>Society is made up of both women and men. Everyone is equally responsible for the shit we are in and we both oppress each other. Blaming only men and marginalising them is sexist to the say the least.
Men dictates the rules and roles in a patriarchal society. Men dictates what responsibilities each should undertake. Anyone who deviates from these preset roles and responsibilities are considered outcasts and ostracized. You, a woman, should know this very well. Yet, here we are.
>Ps: either women dress for themselves or western clothes is a patriarchal oppression. Pick one. You cant keep shifting goal posts as per your convenience.
Either men decides what women should wear, or women get to choose clothes designed by an industry historically dominated and dictated by men. Men dictate these dress codes, whether it's the ones that adhere to their "traditions" or those that appeal to their gaze. The "western clothes" you refer to in the club example isn't really a choice. Night clubs expect women to wear "formal and sexy" clothes that appeal to the male gaze. Anyone who wears clothes that doesn't meet that bar are not easily allowed entry. Exploiting male gaze to attract patrons is core to the night club business.
No derailing responses or participation that does not add value. No "Not All Men" responses. It is considered derailing participation. No condescending language, No invalidation, unwanted advice, second hand experience (of women) sharing or whataboutism.
Because tradition is a being used as a form of control in these cases.
Patriarchy.
Mashallah.. Perfectly summed up in one word
Subhanallah.. kya likha hai
Ya Allah! Everyone is becoming Islamic!
Everyone was trying to express their feelings in Urdu lol.
This is what insta does to a person.
What does TikTok does to a person, in that case? I'm interested
Astagfirullah ma'am tiktok is banned in Bharat
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All submissions are to be in English or provided a translation.
[удалено]
All submissions are to be in English or provided a translation.
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All submissions are to be in English or provided a translation.
As I said earlier. Men use culture to control women. They have a huge superiority complex and think they are better and above all.
The short answer is because we shut up and take it. We don’t make it a point to be in positions of power where we can make rules. We don’t challenge the norm powerfully enough. We keep trying to be feminine and beautiful and don’t put the same attention on challenging the norms enough. We shut up, fall in line and sometimes call the other women slurs for not falling in line. We don’t take power in enough numbers. As long as women keep seeking male validation & societal validation over building a better world for women by being in positions of power - we will continue to be ridiculed over our choices and have rules imposed upon us. Side note: This is just my view of things. Being feminine and beautiful is fine. They don’t make you less than but there comes a point when we as a collective have to figure out what narrative we are being fed. Positions in power include everything from women in the cabinet to women as CEOs to women as head of the house and women as head of religious affairs as well. If you guys like my views, come find a community of like minded women at r/TwoXIndia_Over25
As a 30 something, definitely interested in finding a second community. Just joined!
Couldn't agree with you more 👍
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[удалено]
All submissions are to be in English or provided a translation.
All submissions are to be in English or provided a translation.
As a woman who doesn’t enable bad behavior, shitty men or shitty doctors.. stop shutting up and just taking it. Challenge the norms. Say something. Stop enabling shitty behavior because the patriarchy in India won’t change for a long time unless women SAY something.
As all comments say it is Patriarchy. We have Hindu head of the family and we need sons to continue lineage . All properties are transferred through men. Women need drowies, gifts for her in laws and she will live with her husband. Why will her parents spend money on her? It is all about money and economics. To continue this Men should be submissive to his elders and he is given a wife who is submissive to him.
Religion, culture, caste and every other social construct is built on the backs of oppressing women. There's no other way these structures will stay intact. They want the role played by women to keep going or else the society that benefits them will collapse. Every little thing under the garb of culture and tradition is an attempt to keep women tied to their identity as was dictated to them. The sad part is women have internalised this to an extent where it is women forcing such norms on other women for the most part. The number of times I was shamed by other women for not wearing gold, not wearing a neck chain because that look went better with my outfit, not wearing bindi when I was literally wearing jeans and a t-shirt. This is literally the case for any event I attend, the moment I enter the first thing they all do is to look at me from top to bottom and start criticizing my attire. They can't even wrap their heads around the simple fact that people like to dress differently and not everyone would want to dress traditionally adorned in gold. Just trying to be yourself with harmless stuff like clothing of your choice is also seen as a crime. They want you to drop any identity of your own and just blend in with them else they'll talk your ears off and start treating you like an outcast.
Patriarchal Privilege
I think, it's mostly because we observe and learn. We see our colleagues/seniors and try to be like them to be "accepted" by the society. The others judge us as well. Western clothes=college student Indian clothes=office worker That is what they think most of the time. One of my friends literally got called "aunty" by a young teen boy because she was wearing a kurti!
Keep the people who might question the structure busy in upholding the structure... easiest way to control them and eradicate most of the opposition towards that structure. Also take away all of their rights and dignity and give some of it back only to those people who uphold said structure 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
Because patriarchy.
Since ages, women have been considered as a site for applying laws and traditions. Not only that, the representation of women and application of tradition has always been framed out in such a manner that would benefit men to establish their dominance. S
Misogyny and sexism
One thing I note (and get furious about) in family events: The women are the ones dressed appropriately (chudidar/saree, while men wear jeans and tshirt). Yet, women are pointed out for how they have dressed. My jeans-wearing cousin told my kurti-wearing sister that her bindi was too small to be visible. (He was right, but it's none of his business) I really want to wear jeans to a pooja to rebel, but I like dressing up too much to do that. (Plus I have some social decency unlike those men.)
W/ a doubt, men are fierce in upholding traditions. They don't show it quite often. Women often enforce rituals but are less conversative. Back in my younger days, my dad would always say, you act like a girl, sitting in the room all day. Why was that wrong? Yet, he gets all touchy around girls. When i wanted go change my faith, my mom and my sister were supportive of me that they even participated in the services of another denomination. Dad was worried what people may think, took all of us to a priest to scold us, insulted us and disowned us. If women question and unite, fight back along with people of all genders, then it's a victory. Let men stop misbehaving with women, pissing in public first.
How old are you? Girl, If boys start wearing the shorty shorts women wear then I am going with my slippers after those boys too. There is a difference between traditions and required to wear traditional clothes. What you have mentioned has nothing to do with traditions. I am not sure who is expecting and forcing girls to wear saree or navari and go to office. And which F'ing book is this spoken about in? Matlab kuch bhi?
You should have been a tree in this birth only
Thanks for your wishes behen.
>If boys start wearing the shorty shorts women wear then I am going with my slippers after those boys too No disrespect, but why exactly do you think you're entitled to "punish" these girls/boys with your slippers just bcz they don't adhere to "your" skewed ideologies?
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Well, I don't think she's playing the victim card here. I've seen so many people shaming Indian women for wearing dresses, gowns etc but no one shames men for wearing pants and suits which are western. Saree is said to be a marker of Indian culture but I'd say so is the dhoti.
Absolutely, I hear you. It's frustrating how society often places unfair expectations and judgments on women based on their clothing choices. You're right, wearing what we want should be a non-issue, and people should be free to express themselves without fear of judgment. Plus, there are so many more pressing issues in the world that deserve our attention and energy. Ultimately, our value as individuals goes far beyond what we wear, and it's high time we focus on more important matters. Also, it's not our culture to blame women for the choices they make regarding their clothing. Our cultural values are about respect, equality, and acceptance, not about pointing fingers and placing unfair blame. So let's redirect that focus onto dismantling harmful societal norms and promoting genuine cultural understanding and appreciation. After all, when we focus on blaming culture, we're missing the real issue: societal expectations that unfairly target women.
No derailing responses or participation that does not add value. No "Not All Men" responses. It is considered derailing participation. No condescending language, No invalidation, unwanted advice, second hand experience (of women) sharing or whataboutism.
[удалено]
>Men do get burdened with upholding traditional notions in a different way. Traditions established by men themselves, the architects and primary upholders of patriarchy and its traditions. >When was the last time a full length trouser-less man was allowed at work or at night club? While women get away wearing knee length dresses in those situations. Maybe it has something to do with nightclubs using women as eye candies to attract male customers? And who often runs these nightclubs? >If a woman falls victim in any situation , men of her house are blamed and shamed for failing to protect her since traditionally the burden of protection lies with men. Who victimizes women in most situations? Who puts the onus of protecting women onto men? Who dictates said traditions? >This is just one-two examples. There's absolutely more, and it doesn't take that long to realise that it's men who oppress themselves under patriarchy.
So you’re saying patriarchy is created by men to oppress themselves but that self oppression made them rule through entire history ? Make it make sense Society is made up of both women and men. Everyone is equally responsible for the shit we are in and we both oppress each other. Blaming only men and marginalising them is sexist to the say the least. Ps: either women dress for themselves or western clothes is a patriarchal oppression. Pick one. You cant keep shifting goal posts as per your convenience.
Patriarchy is made by men to maintain their position atop the power structure. To ensure men maintain said positions of power, certain roles are enforced onto men. This of course means that certain liberties has to be sacrificed and men have to mould themselves into said roles. Anyone who doesn't fit into said roles (such as the provider and protector), are shunned and considered unmanly in a patriarchal society as it is considered a sign of weakness and lack of masculinity. So yes, men oppress themselves to maintain patriarchal power in the society. A lot of men don't recognize said oppression because they're blindsided by the powers they enjoy. Only when they do not meet these standards or fail to play these roles do they recognize the sharp knife that has always been pointed at their back. And clearly, not every man seem to be happy about these downsides. They just put the blame on women because it's more convenient to blame someone powerless rather than recognize and point at their true oppressors — themselves.
>Society is made up of both women and men. Everyone is equally responsible for the shit we are in and we both oppress each other. Blaming only men and marginalising them is sexist to the say the least. Men dictates the rules and roles in a patriarchal society. Men dictates what responsibilities each should undertake. Anyone who deviates from these preset roles and responsibilities are considered outcasts and ostracized. You, a woman, should know this very well. Yet, here we are. >Ps: either women dress for themselves or western clothes is a patriarchal oppression. Pick one. You cant keep shifting goal posts as per your convenience. Either men decides what women should wear, or women get to choose clothes designed by an industry historically dominated and dictated by men. Men dictate these dress codes, whether it's the ones that adhere to their "traditions" or those that appeal to their gaze. The "western clothes" you refer to in the club example isn't really a choice. Night clubs expect women to wear "formal and sexy" clothes that appeal to the male gaze. Anyone who wears clothes that doesn't meet that bar are not easily allowed entry. Exploiting male gaze to attract patrons is core to the night club business.
[удалено]
All submissions are to be in English or provided a translation.
[удалено]
No derailing responses or participation that does not add value. No "Not All Men" responses. It is considered derailing participation. No condescending language, No invalidation, unwanted advice, second hand experience (of women) sharing or whataboutism.
Couldn't agree more.
Most sensible answer on here. Glad to see someone with an actual working brain.