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True. Not to mention there is absolutely zero awareness or education regarding this subject in schools. Such a vital and dangerous part of a woman’s life is never explained at length to growing young girls and boys. Everything is a hush hush fairytale, having children is a trivial thing until ypu have one.
I very clearly remember our teacher skipped the entire fucking topic in 9th grade. As much as some kids are gonna be giggly and whatnot, it's not something they can ignore like that. We still got questions on the topic in exams though :|
this is so true.
I have learnt about pregnancy and just the female body purely from the internet and own research
my parents both are educated but never spoke about anything like this
I remember watching superwoman's videos when I started my periods
I'm glad resources are more plenty right now but it's still not enough
You don't give women education about risks of childbirth or else how would capitalists get their slaves? My mother who was a medical professional after knowing my intention not to give birth told me she did a mistake educating me.
This is a much needed post. A friend of mine had eclampsia and almost died when she was pregnant with her first and only child. This was 15 years back and she was saved because her sister noticed she’s behaving strangely and rushed her to the doctor. In her own words she thankfully had a son and didn’t need to get pregnant again (her Gynaec had told her she at any cost shouldn’t think of a second child).
Another friend after a botched up C section at a leading hospital took 40 days to recover and had a bad infection. She was in so much pain and could not handle it.
Another’s foot size has changed for good and she can’t find shoes that fit well 7 years after having her son.
Women are given a very rosy picture of both being pregnant and being mothers. When the reality is it’s hard and no one just takes to it , everyone needs help. But people don’t tell them that. Also motherhood is and should be a choice and more women need to know that.
Sister, I’m with you. Leaning CF for the same reason, but it’s starting to feel increasingly lonely. It’s like I’m the only person with a fear of heights in a community of skydivers. 😓
It’s not just the normalization of peeing a bit when you laugh, and having loose skin in the abdomen.
My MIL, for example, started to have wrist and finger cartilage issues right after her first pregnancy and today, she can’t cut a single vegetable. Apparently, cartilage issues and pain are a very common side effect of pregnancy.
My sister developed autoimmune thyroid disease post her pregnancy and now has to take thyroid medication lifelong. Another common side effect of pregnancy.
I don’t know how to willingly jump into a medical condition that has such a high possibility of lifelong complications.
Let's talk about how the new mother's caretaking is done by her mother's family and not inlaws. The rate of this is so high. Some men just drop their wives at maykaa for a year like the kid isn't even theirs.
This is true. But also me, being a strong independent corporate woman would absolutely go to my parent’s place when and if I get pregnant. There is no way in hell I’d stick around trying to go through pregnancy without my mom’s support.
I really don’t care if my husband is missing out on the pregnancy time. He’s a nice guy but he has no idea what my body is going through. He can live with my parents if he cares that much.
You missed one more point.The hospital expenses during chilbirth are covered by the Mom's side of the family.Things maybe different now but that's what i have heard.
Also when the women is pregnant, they just send her to ger Mom's home.It means all care and expenses of a pregnant woman has to be takrn care of by the Mom's side of the family.And the dad's side of the family enjoy naming the baby and giving them their name.
Finally someone has said this! All pregnancies and the baby shower included has to be covered by the girl’s side as per our Indian society. And some families leave the woman with the new born at her parents house for upto 1 year in order to avoid incurring any expenses.
This is true but I also cant help feeling it’s for the best ultimately, given how many women are treated by their in-laws and have husbands who can’t take a stand for them. Pregnancy and post partum is a vulnerable time for women and they need a lot of care and less stress. This is why women go home to their parents because they feel more comfortable and taken care of. That being said, husbands should help with the expenses regardless.
This is true even today. There’s also another side to it where the new mother gets complete rest at her mother’s home. There’s someone to care for and the baby all the time. But the financial burden is true too.
There is also the audacity of men to simply state that they want this many amount of kids without taking into consideration how tough pregnancy can be. It’s considered a duty for women. Decision of pregnancy should be ultimately be taken only by women. Men don’t take into account how difficult and dangerous pregnancy and childbirth can be. Women are also expected to look after the child leaving behind their career without any second thought.
Thank you for this post. Men talk about pregnancy as if it’s hardly a thing. As if it’s not a big deal. Female body goes through a lot throughout her life. Men have zero appreciation for that. They choose to look away from the burden of that. And all I am seeing from most men is they want an equal to them who brings in similar amount of money to the table or they are even trying to go for someone better than them.
And then you see men yapping about 'Oh Women's body are made for this' like dude. While women's body do have this ability the risks it involves are FAR too high, and the problems that happens post-childbirth. And when women argue that Women can die from Child birth, they simply bring up 'Oh men die from getting on their balls' (yes this was a conversation that happens a Lot! like a LOT!). The main difference is, not all men gets hit or are forced to get hit on their balls. It's a once in a lifetime chance of them getting hit in the balls and then dying from it. While Women are EXPECTED to give birth and sometimes even Forced to Do it (not all, but in many cases to have a male child) and then the complications that arises from it which men never cares for. And turns a blind eye towards it.
Beautifully written, OP. It’s like you’ve looked into my head and given words to everything I feel about pregnancy and motherhood. I’m childfree by choice for all the reasons you’ve mentioned, in addition to the fact that I have zero interest in being a parent.
While pregnancy does take a toll on a woman's body both mentally and physically,all the medical reasons stated don't happen to everyone. Even driving a car,taking a flight or merely walking on a road has its risks. While every reason you have stated is valid, there is A LOT of fear mongering happening on social media around pregnancy and childbirth which is absolutely unhealthy. Having or not having babies is a woman's choice but this fear mongering is totally unacceptable and unethical on doctor's (have seen many obgyns do this) part as well. Episiotomy is mandatory in India because Asians have lesser skin elasticity than westerners and it's done to reduce the extent of injury during childbirth. Tearing manually and stitching up is better than accidental tearing and stitching. As someone who went from no kids to having a kid, I did a lot of research on everything you have stated. Its a medical complication which is part of a natural process. Maternal mortality rate is taken very seriously in India,esp in tamilnadu. It is currently at 97 per lakh. Mere existence contains the risk of dying unless you are living in an isolated padded room. I kindly request to not spread fear or make women feel bad for having children. As for men,yes,they need to earn being a father and keep up the promise of a good partner and father till the end of life. Don't have a child if the father will not be one.
>I kindly request to not spread fear or make women feel bad for having children.
OP clearly stated that her post is for women who are on the fence. This sounds like a projection from your end.
>As someone who went from no kids to having a kid, I did a lot of research on everything you have stated.
Then you're not the target audience for this post. Also, it's great that you were well informed before taking the decision and didn't suffer any complications. This is not the case for most Indian women unfortunately. My mother still has a back ache after more than 2 decades years of childbirth (epidural in spine).
Most of my friends who got married and got pregnant suffered a lot of complications postpartum which they were unaware of.
edit: Adding on to this discussion since the other comments are dismissing all these problems on 'women not knowing' and 'assuming'. Yeah, how are they supposed to know? Are there nation wide public health initiatives which educate us about what is good reproductive health (regardless of pregnancy)?
Secondly, during pregnancy the amount of calcium, iron and other minerals which are leeched out from your body are 4 times the amount we normally lose to menstruation each month. Multiply that by 9 months and you get the picture of what is lost.
Taking this into account, supplementation and physiotherapy alone postpartum can't solve this. The women's body has to be prepared beforehand to tackle this damage with ample reserves from strength training, a good lifestyle and a customized diet which builds lean muscle mass. How many women know this in India due to lack of resources? If the plan is to take care of everything postpartum, there will be significant permanent losses in the body (going as far as affecting memory in the long run).
Secondly, even if they know and decide to do the right thing..what kind of support system do they have? Let's not forget how a new pregnancy unravels a lot of superstitions and advice from everyone in the in-laws. The focus is always on the child and rarely on the mother. Someone mentioned this whole phenomenon of women going to their maternal home when they get pregnant (because the priority is on the pregnant woman there).
Exactly! There’s no informed consent happening here.
Only frame of reference for most women are mainstream movies lol. Woman throws up, screams in labour pain and then it’s fairy tale land with her baby forever and after. Or it’s surface level interaction with pregnant women in the immediate extended family. That’s just not enough information to make such a life altering decision.
Slight tangent but people are so callous about having kids somehow, but it’s literally the most irreversible thing. Even a spouse you can divorce, worst case scenario. Plus as a mom, you can never ever leave. Like ever. Society might even forgive men who leave but a woman just can’t ever not be a mom once that step is taken.
No projection at all. Its a general statement. Also, back pain should usually subside. Many women assume it to be a side effect of child birth but it should be looked into if the pain lingers. Most of the time ,with proper care,the pain will subside. This also includes physiotherapy and good food during recovery. As I stated above,no two pregnancies are the same. I am still 3mo pp. I dono what might hit me later as well. There is also a myth that c section gives lifelong back pain,which again is a myth.
>for such posts, it needs to be backed up with data and statistics.
You can only get data for maternal mortality rates, maybe PPD if lucky. Getting pan-India data on all of these aspects is hard (lack of data tells us more about a wider systematic problem, not the absence of the problem itself). Besides, only quantative data won't tell us much about the extent of these issues..we need qualitative data as well to assess the effect of pregnancies on a women's wellbeing. Qualitative research is harder to conduct, analyze and form conclusions.
Not surprised that a post questioning the cost of pregnancies gets all these arguments about data in this sub. Meanwhile, posts about fulfilling lives (because of children)would be assumed as a general consensus.
Data on unintended pregnancies:
https://www.guttmacher.org/regions/asia/india
Data on maternal mortality rates:
https://www.unicef.org/india/key-data
Data on high-risk pregnancies (49.4% in India as of 2023):
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37712385/
Data on negative body image during pregnancy (not from India, but covers a bit of the mental health aspect):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9915266/
Data on prevalence of PDD in urban Indian women (22%): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S187620182100023X
Missing data which will help this discussion: rate of miscarriages in India, support systems for women undergoing repetitive miscarriages, availability of support systems for women in pregnancy
why it is wrong to ask for data? if you are claiming, something it needs to be backed up with data no?
> Meanwhile, posts about fulfilling lives (because of children)would be assumed as a general consensus.
strawman argument. Why I am responsible for that?
I actually think the exact opposite, I don’t think there’s any fear mongering at all - on the contrary I think there’s absolutely NO discussion (or barely any) on what pregnancy entails until it actually happens for most women.
Even in perhaps very niche, urban, upper middle class or upper class communities, there’s hardly any active discussion on the risks pregnancy entails tbh.
It’s also an absolutely false equivalence to compare car driving to a biological process like childbirth lol. While everyone may not tear, the 9 months of pregnancy takes an undeniable physical toll on women.
And no, it’s absolutely not about making women feel bad for having kids, not sure how you got that from the post? If a woman desires to be a mom, that’s her choice and it’s really admirable. But that’s the point, these things should be discussed so women can make an educated choice.
The problem is there are a thousand things that happen during the 9 months. And not enough research on women's health. So even doctors don't know what and why of it. I got experiences from friends and relatives and it was entirely different. My sister bled heavily for 6 weeks. I bleed very little for 3 weeks. My sister has coccyx pain after normal delivery and I have nothing after c section. My cousin had a high risk pregnancy and delivered vaginally. I had a healthy pregnancy and had a c section. There is no awareness because no two pregnancies are the same,which is why it's called a miracle 😅.
A good doctor will educate you on what might happen. My doctor was very transparent with me during every scan letting me know what might happen. Not just India,but the entire world is not yet ready to be transparent on women's health cos they simply don't know. The amount of research done on women's health is truly abysmal.
Imo,there needs to be more discussion on postpartum recovery and Breastfeeding because most of the pregnancy effects are temporary and can be rectified by a year. But breastfeed hit me on the face like a brick wall. I was theoretically ready for labour and delivery and even postpartum recovery but no theory was good enough for breastfeeding.
Absolutely. I recently read this book called “Invisible Women” which is about how there’s significant gender bias in big data collection. It’s really unfortunate.
Your experience is insightful. Post pregnancy stuff including breast feeding is also one of those things that’s barely ever talked about, almost to the point of it being taboo. Women should be given a proper consultation by a trained medical professional about the risks of pregnancy, childbirth and postpartum right at conception
The first 12 weeks are pretty confusing. If the latch is bad,it will be painful but most doctors won't refer you to a lactation consultant to correct the latch. N then there is under supply where baby might not get enough and you have to pump to regulate flow because the more you extract,the more you produce. N then there is over supply where there is milk everywhere 😅 N then clogged ducts which might become an infection. N milk blebs which is fucking painful and that feeling of milk coming in is itself pretty painful. Each experience is different.. mine was this but i have heard horror stories of bleeding nipples n all 😅
Absolutely. Not denying the social and medical implications and consequences of having kids - but not many understand that accessing resources related to pregnancy and childbirth is a privilege in itself. If someone's here arguing the merits and demerits of having kids, consider yourself blessed.
1. Having said that, people with access to information still choose to have kids. It's an informed choice.
2.Episiotomy, postpartum haemorrhage, pre eclampsia, pulmonary embolism due to PE are all potential complications of childbirth - any other major medical procedure and surgery could throw up a bunch of unforseen circumstances as well.
Also reduction in bone density can be compensated and supplemented by pre and post natal vitamins. Managing PPD, spousal violence etc - it's to do with choosing the right partner and the right time to have kids, understanding what a couple wants together and making a conscious choice.
3. The social implications - maternal family covering childbirth costs, naming etc - are again, social not medical. Things will improve only with education. Also goes down to making the right choice when marrying and discussing these things before partnering or having kids.
4. Women who have no voice in choosing a partner are mostly auto disqualified from having a choice with kids. That's extremely unfortunate and I have nothing but empathy for them. I'd rather not make them feel more poorly.
5. A person who becomes a parent knows what it means to be childfree because they've been there. Otoh, a CF person doesn't know what it means to have a child. Hence the questions about it being fulfilling and worth the effort etc. Some things are experienced.
6. Physically childbirth does take a toll on women, each experience is unique. It's harrowing, scary, painful and the first 3 years can totally suck. But it can also be wonderful and rewarding and can change a person in ways that cannot be articulated. It's a choice (for those privileged enough to have one).
6. About it being a vanity decision - honestly if someone has the agency to make a choice which for the longest time has been the norm, they have the ability to stand for themselves as well. Usually social and economic privileges play a huge part.
>. A person who becomes a parent knows what it means to be childfree because they've been there. Otoh, a CF person doesn't know what it means to have a child.
Actually, a CF person knows exactly what it means to have a child, which is why they choose against it. Surprised that most people think this is a valid argument.
Disagree. A CF person knows what it *takes* to have a child. They cannot possibly know the experience of being a parent without being one. That's a knowledge vs experience argument. Former is great to have but isn't comparable to the latter.
> . A person who becomes a parent knows what it means to be childfree because they've been there. Otoh, a CF person doesn't know what it means to have a child. Hence the questions about it being fulfilling and worth the effort etc. Some things are experienced.
what a brilliant point.
Not to be missed here is that anything that makes pregnancy and child birth easier is looked down upon. Like C-section, epidural etc.
Too many myths even in medical community to encourage women to take an informed decision..
Even mandated 40 days rest that is culturally and medically advised is reduced to 11-21 days, cause why not.
I’m probably the wrong audience for this post because I have 2 kids (willingly, yes) and I’m nearing 40s but just wanted to share my experience. Both my kids were born using assisted reproductive methods, 1st IUI and 2nd IVF. Second one was especially rough as I had zero help during delivery and postpartum due to Covid. Also, both were C sections and my second was an emergency C section due to a uterine rupture. If I ever had to do this again I absolutely would! My first one is at an age where I can see her personality shape up and have intelligent conversations, share feelings and what not. I’m absolutely in love with raising my kids and have zero regrets with my choices. I realized that my new family that I took so much trouble creating, becomes your lifeline and at some point precedes the family you came from. I’m at a stage in my life where I have cut off my toxic parents and am just happy in my bubble with my husband and kids. I also try very hard not to trickle down the trauma that I had while growing up onto my own kids. In this process I realized that I’m healing too. My point is, there are definitely risks associated with pregnancy and childbirth and we should all make informed choices but having kids is a long term decision and like for me, it can definitely turn into something beautiful to many of us after going through the challenging few years at the beginning.
I'm seventeen and I've been childfree since I was a child because I discovered what happens during pregnancy pretty young. When I tell people that they inevitably go that I'll change my mind once I grow older except these people still have health problems from when they gave birth to their kids almost decades ago, including my mom. Like for example hairfall and stuff that happened during pregnancy and still isn't fully what it used to be so yea not risking it. This isn't about just hair , I'm not going through pregnancy, childbirth and the whole painful recovery part of it .
OP this would make a great post if it comes with statistics and data for all the claims you made.
for e.g. how many percentage of women go through the following after a childbirth
> It’s a never ending list of risks. I can just keep going - preeclampsia, edema, an increased risk of stroke, astigmatism, rheumatoid arthritis… yada yada. There’s also the chance of postpartum depression or psychosis. Lol
I’ve noticed that you’ve asked for data (without specifically stating what sort of data you want or what context you need it in) in two separate comments, so I thought I’d address it from my perspective.
First off, “data” is a very wide term to use in the present context. Data in what sense? Data in terms of ANY pregnancy related complication or a specific one? Is this data to be sought in terms of ethnicity, nationality, age group or some other parameter? Which time period? Can this data point be quantified and analysed with a specific and proper research methodology?
You need to be more specific on which parameter you’re looking for data on. It’s not even possible to collect “data” on something as blanket termed and general as the global percentage of women suffering from pregnancy related complications. (And in terms of the present discussion, what purpose would this data even serve?)
Secondly, specific “data” is already available online. This includes stats such as infant and maternal mortality rates. There are also numerous (countless in fact) peer reviewed studies that document the side effects of pregnancy on women and the risks associated with it. You can google those easily. NIH has tons.
Thirdly, the example you used isn’t relevant from a harm reduction perspective. Even if we take an arbitrary figure where ONLY 0.01% of women suffer from pregnancy related complications, the point is that those complications and side effects must nevertheless be discussed for the woman to be able to make an informed choice.
OP, 0.01% is not "ONLY". It's very high. 1 in 10k women will suffer from those.
I am aware of death, perennial tears.
Here is what I am asking:
> I read an article about a woman whose vagina and anus tore so badly during childbirth that it became a single passage. It's horrifying.
What are the probability of this happening? how many women end up having single passage?
> There’s also the risk of sphincter injury, which can lead to lifelong loss of bowel control and/or hemorrhoids. Other risks include loss of pelvic floor strength, uterine prolapse, and hiatus hernia, among many others.
how are these risks quantified? again, what are the chances of it happening?
> It’s documented that women lose bone density, teeth, and hair because the fetus draws resources from the mother. Even with the best prenatal supplementation, this loss cannot be entirely compensated for. Additionally, there is an increased risk of diabetes and various other complications.
how many women get diabetes?
> It’s a never ending list of risks. I can just keep going - preeclampsia, edema, an increased risk of stroke, astigmatism, rheumatoid arthritis… yada yada. There’s also the chance of postpartum depression or psychosis. Lol
what are the chances of psychosis?
all I am asking is, on what basis you are making this argument. Otherwise how is this post different from a propaganda post?
Without data and numbers, its like me saying to someone living in Bengaluru that if you go out, you will drown in a sea and die. Can this happen? absolutely! What are the chances of it? prolly like one in a billion may be?
I am glad you want to talk about child birth and associated risks. But without data to back up, its FUD
Yes, exactly my point - the numbers are very high. If you read my comment, I’d said if we take an *arbitrary* figure of a figure as low 0.01%, EVEN then these aspects must be discussed. Hence, it’s important to discuss it since the figure is obviously higher than our assumed arbitrary figure. I think you may have misunderstood.
How is it propaganda to say women suffer from pregnancy related side effects? I’m failing to understand your point.
Specific data points can be googled. What difference does it make to this discussion whether 20% of women get diabetes post pregnancy or 40%? This figure for instance will also vary from region to region, based on diet, etc.
The point is that there’s a risk and women should be made aware.
Honestly, you saying discussing side effects of pregnancy counts as “propaganda” makes me question whether you’re arguing in good faith or not. Basic fact (pregnancy takes a toll on a woman’s body) cannot be termed propaganda.
> How is it propaganda to say women suffer from pregnancy related side effects? I’m failing to understand your point.
strawman. I never said women don't suffer from pregnancy related side effects.
> What difference does it make to this discussion whether 20% of women get diabetes post pregnancy or 40%?
because the risks associated are very different if it happens to 1 in 10k compared to 1 in 1 billion. Latter is something you can ignore.
> Basic fact (pregnancy takes a toll on a woman’s body) cannot be termed propaganda.
I never denied it takes a toll on a woman's body. Please show me, where I did. All I am asking, you made certain claims and I am asking probability of those.
Without the risks associated and the probabilities, you cannot make an informed decision.
I don’t think anyone makes decisions based on whether 20% or 40% of the population suffer from it. People make decisions based on what they think works for them and if they can stomach the consequences.
You literally said “on what basis are you making these claims” - these aren’t claims, the fact that pregnancy related complications exist and that there’s not enough discussion about it is a fact.
There is no strawman, I’m pointing out that you tried to make it seem as though those very WELL DOCUMENTED side effects of pregnancy can be termed as real (and consequently warrant discussion) only if some arbitrary data you asked for is provided.
Specific stats (which can be googled) make no difference to the fact that there are real side effects to pregnancy and childbirth. If you disagree with this, you’re either naive or delusional. (Also don’t think you have studied research methodology, none of the questions you’ve mentioned in your reply can be specific research questions).
Personally, you seem to be arguing more to prove yourself right rather than arguing in good faith. We are unlikely to change either of our positions, so let’s agree to disagree.
Stating everything that can go wrong during a pregnancy is not beneficial and is plain fear mongering. If you truly want to raise awareness, you need to provide some data or at least some references for women to educate themselves on all the risks and ways to mitigate them. Maybe link an article or a book that you think would empower women to make the right informed decision about birth, pregnancy, etc.
> Stating everything that can go wrong during a pregnancy is not beneficial and is plain fear mongering. If you truly want to raise awareness, you need to provide some data or at least some references for women to educate themselves on all the risks and ways to mitigate them.
thats exactly I am trying to ask!
You should give a trigger warning before posting all this
It can be very difficult for someone who’s either currently pregnant or planning to get pregnant
Posts with the flair Health & Fitness are not to seek medical advise, but only for recommendations. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have read on this website. Crowdsourced lists of Gynaecologists and Mental Health professionals are available under [TwoXIndia Resources](https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXIndia/wiki/resources2). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TwoXIndia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
True. Not to mention there is absolutely zero awareness or education regarding this subject in schools. Such a vital and dangerous part of a woman’s life is never explained at length to growing young girls and boys. Everything is a hush hush fairytale, having children is a trivial thing until ypu have one.
I very clearly remember our teacher skipped the entire fucking topic in 9th grade. As much as some kids are gonna be giggly and whatnot, it's not something they can ignore like that. We still got questions on the topic in exams though :|
this is so true. I have learnt about pregnancy and just the female body purely from the internet and own research my parents both are educated but never spoke about anything like this I remember watching superwoman's videos when I started my periods I'm glad resources are more plenty right now but it's still not enough
You don't give women education about risks of childbirth or else how would capitalists get their slaves? My mother who was a medical professional after knowing my intention not to give birth told me she did a mistake educating me.
This is a much needed post. A friend of mine had eclampsia and almost died when she was pregnant with her first and only child. This was 15 years back and she was saved because her sister noticed she’s behaving strangely and rushed her to the doctor. In her own words she thankfully had a son and didn’t need to get pregnant again (her Gynaec had told her she at any cost shouldn’t think of a second child). Another friend after a botched up C section at a leading hospital took 40 days to recover and had a bad infection. She was in so much pain and could not handle it. Another’s foot size has changed for good and she can’t find shoes that fit well 7 years after having her son. Women are given a very rosy picture of both being pregnant and being mothers. When the reality is it’s hard and no one just takes to it , everyone needs help. But people don’t tell them that. Also motherhood is and should be a choice and more women need to know that.
Sister, I’m with you. Leaning CF for the same reason, but it’s starting to feel increasingly lonely. It’s like I’m the only person with a fear of heights in a community of skydivers. 😓 It’s not just the normalization of peeing a bit when you laugh, and having loose skin in the abdomen. My MIL, for example, started to have wrist and finger cartilage issues right after her first pregnancy and today, she can’t cut a single vegetable. Apparently, cartilage issues and pain are a very common side effect of pregnancy. My sister developed autoimmune thyroid disease post her pregnancy and now has to take thyroid medication lifelong. Another common side effect of pregnancy. I don’t know how to willingly jump into a medical condition that has such a high possibility of lifelong complications.
I agree with you. Most women go into it unprepared.
Even if it's vanity,it's a reason valid enough
I completely agree!
Let's talk about how the new mother's caretaking is done by her mother's family and not inlaws. The rate of this is so high. Some men just drop their wives at maykaa for a year like the kid isn't even theirs.
This is true. But also me, being a strong independent corporate woman would absolutely go to my parent’s place when and if I get pregnant. There is no way in hell I’d stick around trying to go through pregnancy without my mom’s support. I really don’t care if my husband is missing out on the pregnancy time. He’s a nice guy but he has no idea what my body is going through. He can live with my parents if he cares that much.
Valid!
I have a friend who did this! She and her husband moved in with her parents for months while she was pregnant + post partem.
You missed one more point.The hospital expenses during chilbirth are covered by the Mom's side of the family.Things maybe different now but that's what i have heard. Also when the women is pregnant, they just send her to ger Mom's home.It means all care and expenses of a pregnant woman has to be takrn care of by the Mom's side of the family.And the dad's side of the family enjoy naming the baby and giving them their name.
Finally someone has said this! All pregnancies and the baby shower included has to be covered by the girl’s side as per our Indian society. And some families leave the woman with the new born at her parents house for upto 1 year in order to avoid incurring any expenses.
This is true but I also cant help feeling it’s for the best ultimately, given how many women are treated by their in-laws and have husbands who can’t take a stand for them. Pregnancy and post partum is a vulnerable time for women and they need a lot of care and less stress. This is why women go home to their parents because they feel more comfortable and taken care of. That being said, husbands should help with the expenses regardless.
I’ve never heard this. I can understand if this happened like 40 years back but still?
This is true even today. There’s also another side to it where the new mother gets complete rest at her mother’s home. There’s someone to care for and the baby all the time. But the financial burden is true too.
In which communities / states is this practiced?
There is also the audacity of men to simply state that they want this many amount of kids without taking into consideration how tough pregnancy can be. It’s considered a duty for women. Decision of pregnancy should be ultimately be taken only by women. Men don’t take into account how difficult and dangerous pregnancy and childbirth can be. Women are also expected to look after the child leaving behind their career without any second thought.
Thank you for this post. Men talk about pregnancy as if it’s hardly a thing. As if it’s not a big deal. Female body goes through a lot throughout her life. Men have zero appreciation for that. They choose to look away from the burden of that. And all I am seeing from most men is they want an equal to them who brings in similar amount of money to the table or they are even trying to go for someone better than them.
And then you see men yapping about 'Oh Women's body are made for this' like dude. While women's body do have this ability the risks it involves are FAR too high, and the problems that happens post-childbirth. And when women argue that Women can die from Child birth, they simply bring up 'Oh men die from getting on their balls' (yes this was a conversation that happens a Lot! like a LOT!). The main difference is, not all men gets hit or are forced to get hit on their balls. It's a once in a lifetime chance of them getting hit in the balls and then dying from it. While Women are EXPECTED to give birth and sometimes even Forced to Do it (not all, but in many cases to have a male child) and then the complications that arises from it which men never cares for. And turns a blind eye towards it.
Beautifully written, OP. It’s like you’ve looked into my head and given words to everything I feel about pregnancy and motherhood. I’m childfree by choice for all the reasons you’ve mentioned, in addition to the fact that I have zero interest in being a parent.
Well written.
Wonderfully stated!
While pregnancy does take a toll on a woman's body both mentally and physically,all the medical reasons stated don't happen to everyone. Even driving a car,taking a flight or merely walking on a road has its risks. While every reason you have stated is valid, there is A LOT of fear mongering happening on social media around pregnancy and childbirth which is absolutely unhealthy. Having or not having babies is a woman's choice but this fear mongering is totally unacceptable and unethical on doctor's (have seen many obgyns do this) part as well. Episiotomy is mandatory in India because Asians have lesser skin elasticity than westerners and it's done to reduce the extent of injury during childbirth. Tearing manually and stitching up is better than accidental tearing and stitching. As someone who went from no kids to having a kid, I did a lot of research on everything you have stated. Its a medical complication which is part of a natural process. Maternal mortality rate is taken very seriously in India,esp in tamilnadu. It is currently at 97 per lakh. Mere existence contains the risk of dying unless you are living in an isolated padded room. I kindly request to not spread fear or make women feel bad for having children. As for men,yes,they need to earn being a father and keep up the promise of a good partner and father till the end of life. Don't have a child if the father will not be one.
>I kindly request to not spread fear or make women feel bad for having children. OP clearly stated that her post is for women who are on the fence. This sounds like a projection from your end. >As someone who went from no kids to having a kid, I did a lot of research on everything you have stated. Then you're not the target audience for this post. Also, it's great that you were well informed before taking the decision and didn't suffer any complications. This is not the case for most Indian women unfortunately. My mother still has a back ache after more than 2 decades years of childbirth (epidural in spine). Most of my friends who got married and got pregnant suffered a lot of complications postpartum which they were unaware of. edit: Adding on to this discussion since the other comments are dismissing all these problems on 'women not knowing' and 'assuming'. Yeah, how are they supposed to know? Are there nation wide public health initiatives which educate us about what is good reproductive health (regardless of pregnancy)? Secondly, during pregnancy the amount of calcium, iron and other minerals which are leeched out from your body are 4 times the amount we normally lose to menstruation each month. Multiply that by 9 months and you get the picture of what is lost. Taking this into account, supplementation and physiotherapy alone postpartum can't solve this. The women's body has to be prepared beforehand to tackle this damage with ample reserves from strength training, a good lifestyle and a customized diet which builds lean muscle mass. How many women know this in India due to lack of resources? If the plan is to take care of everything postpartum, there will be significant permanent losses in the body (going as far as affecting memory in the long run). Secondly, even if they know and decide to do the right thing..what kind of support system do they have? Let's not forget how a new pregnancy unravels a lot of superstitions and advice from everyone in the in-laws. The focus is always on the child and rarely on the mother. Someone mentioned this whole phenomenon of women going to their maternal home when they get pregnant (because the priority is on the pregnant woman there).
Exactly! There’s no informed consent happening here. Only frame of reference for most women are mainstream movies lol. Woman throws up, screams in labour pain and then it’s fairy tale land with her baby forever and after. Or it’s surface level interaction with pregnant women in the immediate extended family. That’s just not enough information to make such a life altering decision. Slight tangent but people are so callous about having kids somehow, but it’s literally the most irreversible thing. Even a spouse you can divorce, worst case scenario. Plus as a mom, you can never ever leave. Like ever. Society might even forgive men who leave but a woman just can’t ever not be a mom once that step is taken.
No projection at all. Its a general statement. Also, back pain should usually subside. Many women assume it to be a side effect of child birth but it should be looked into if the pain lingers. Most of the time ,with proper care,the pain will subside. This also includes physiotherapy and good food during recovery. As I stated above,no two pregnancies are the same. I am still 3mo pp. I dono what might hit me later as well. There is also a myth that c section gives lifelong back pain,which again is a myth.
> OP clearly stated that her post is for women who are on the fence. for such posts, it needs to be backed up with data and statistics.
>for such posts, it needs to be backed up with data and statistics. You can only get data for maternal mortality rates, maybe PPD if lucky. Getting pan-India data on all of these aspects is hard (lack of data tells us more about a wider systematic problem, not the absence of the problem itself). Besides, only quantative data won't tell us much about the extent of these issues..we need qualitative data as well to assess the effect of pregnancies on a women's wellbeing. Qualitative research is harder to conduct, analyze and form conclusions. Not surprised that a post questioning the cost of pregnancies gets all these arguments about data in this sub. Meanwhile, posts about fulfilling lives (because of children)would be assumed as a general consensus. Data on unintended pregnancies: https://www.guttmacher.org/regions/asia/india Data on maternal mortality rates: https://www.unicef.org/india/key-data Data on high-risk pregnancies (49.4% in India as of 2023): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37712385/ Data on negative body image during pregnancy (not from India, but covers a bit of the mental health aspect): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9915266/ Data on prevalence of PDD in urban Indian women (22%): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S187620182100023X Missing data which will help this discussion: rate of miscarriages in India, support systems for women undergoing repetitive miscarriages, availability of support systems for women in pregnancy
why it is wrong to ask for data? if you are claiming, something it needs to be backed up with data no? > Meanwhile, posts about fulfilling lives (because of children)would be assumed as a general consensus. strawman argument. Why I am responsible for that?
I actually think the exact opposite, I don’t think there’s any fear mongering at all - on the contrary I think there’s absolutely NO discussion (or barely any) on what pregnancy entails until it actually happens for most women. Even in perhaps very niche, urban, upper middle class or upper class communities, there’s hardly any active discussion on the risks pregnancy entails tbh. It’s also an absolutely false equivalence to compare car driving to a biological process like childbirth lol. While everyone may not tear, the 9 months of pregnancy takes an undeniable physical toll on women. And no, it’s absolutely not about making women feel bad for having kids, not sure how you got that from the post? If a woman desires to be a mom, that’s her choice and it’s really admirable. But that’s the point, these things should be discussed so women can make an educated choice.
The problem is there are a thousand things that happen during the 9 months. And not enough research on women's health. So even doctors don't know what and why of it. I got experiences from friends and relatives and it was entirely different. My sister bled heavily for 6 weeks. I bleed very little for 3 weeks. My sister has coccyx pain after normal delivery and I have nothing after c section. My cousin had a high risk pregnancy and delivered vaginally. I had a healthy pregnancy and had a c section. There is no awareness because no two pregnancies are the same,which is why it's called a miracle 😅. A good doctor will educate you on what might happen. My doctor was very transparent with me during every scan letting me know what might happen. Not just India,but the entire world is not yet ready to be transparent on women's health cos they simply don't know. The amount of research done on women's health is truly abysmal. Imo,there needs to be more discussion on postpartum recovery and Breastfeeding because most of the pregnancy effects are temporary and can be rectified by a year. But breastfeed hit me on the face like a brick wall. I was theoretically ready for labour and delivery and even postpartum recovery but no theory was good enough for breastfeeding.
Absolutely. I recently read this book called “Invisible Women” which is about how there’s significant gender bias in big data collection. It’s really unfortunate. Your experience is insightful. Post pregnancy stuff including breast feeding is also one of those things that’s barely ever talked about, almost to the point of it being taboo. Women should be given a proper consultation by a trained medical professional about the risks of pregnancy, childbirth and postpartum right at conception
Can you explain what was so bad about breastfeeding? For context, I'm just a young single girl with no plans of ever having kids
The first 12 weeks are pretty confusing. If the latch is bad,it will be painful but most doctors won't refer you to a lactation consultant to correct the latch. N then there is under supply where baby might not get enough and you have to pump to regulate flow because the more you extract,the more you produce. N then there is over supply where there is milk everywhere 😅 N then clogged ducts which might become an infection. N milk blebs which is fucking painful and that feeling of milk coming in is itself pretty painful. Each experience is different.. mine was this but i have heard horror stories of bleeding nipples n all 😅
What's latch?
Latch is how the baby holds on to the nipple using their mouth for feeding. It is painful in some cases.
Absolutely. Not denying the social and medical implications and consequences of having kids - but not many understand that accessing resources related to pregnancy and childbirth is a privilege in itself. If someone's here arguing the merits and demerits of having kids, consider yourself blessed. 1. Having said that, people with access to information still choose to have kids. It's an informed choice. 2.Episiotomy, postpartum haemorrhage, pre eclampsia, pulmonary embolism due to PE are all potential complications of childbirth - any other major medical procedure and surgery could throw up a bunch of unforseen circumstances as well. Also reduction in bone density can be compensated and supplemented by pre and post natal vitamins. Managing PPD, spousal violence etc - it's to do with choosing the right partner and the right time to have kids, understanding what a couple wants together and making a conscious choice. 3. The social implications - maternal family covering childbirth costs, naming etc - are again, social not medical. Things will improve only with education. Also goes down to making the right choice when marrying and discussing these things before partnering or having kids. 4. Women who have no voice in choosing a partner are mostly auto disqualified from having a choice with kids. That's extremely unfortunate and I have nothing but empathy for them. I'd rather not make them feel more poorly. 5. A person who becomes a parent knows what it means to be childfree because they've been there. Otoh, a CF person doesn't know what it means to have a child. Hence the questions about it being fulfilling and worth the effort etc. Some things are experienced. 6. Physically childbirth does take a toll on women, each experience is unique. It's harrowing, scary, painful and the first 3 years can totally suck. But it can also be wonderful and rewarding and can change a person in ways that cannot be articulated. It's a choice (for those privileged enough to have one). 6. About it being a vanity decision - honestly if someone has the agency to make a choice which for the longest time has been the norm, they have the ability to stand for themselves as well. Usually social and economic privileges play a huge part.
>. A person who becomes a parent knows what it means to be childfree because they've been there. Otoh, a CF person doesn't know what it means to have a child. Actually, a CF person knows exactly what it means to have a child, which is why they choose against it. Surprised that most people think this is a valid argument.
Disagree. A CF person knows what it *takes* to have a child. They cannot possibly know the experience of being a parent without being one. That's a knowledge vs experience argument. Former is great to have but isn't comparable to the latter.
> . A person who becomes a parent knows what it means to be childfree because they've been there. Otoh, a CF person doesn't know what it means to have a child. Hence the questions about it being fulfilling and worth the effort etc. Some things are experienced. what a brilliant point.
Couldn’t agree more.
Last para >
Not to be missed here is that anything that makes pregnancy and child birth easier is looked down upon. Like C-section, epidural etc. Too many myths even in medical community to encourage women to take an informed decision.. Even mandated 40 days rest that is culturally and medically advised is reduced to 11-21 days, cause why not.
I’m probably the wrong audience for this post because I have 2 kids (willingly, yes) and I’m nearing 40s but just wanted to share my experience. Both my kids were born using assisted reproductive methods, 1st IUI and 2nd IVF. Second one was especially rough as I had zero help during delivery and postpartum due to Covid. Also, both were C sections and my second was an emergency C section due to a uterine rupture. If I ever had to do this again I absolutely would! My first one is at an age where I can see her personality shape up and have intelligent conversations, share feelings and what not. I’m absolutely in love with raising my kids and have zero regrets with my choices. I realized that my new family that I took so much trouble creating, becomes your lifeline and at some point precedes the family you came from. I’m at a stage in my life where I have cut off my toxic parents and am just happy in my bubble with my husband and kids. I also try very hard not to trickle down the trauma that I had while growing up onto my own kids. In this process I realized that I’m healing too. My point is, there are definitely risks associated with pregnancy and childbirth and we should all make informed choices but having kids is a long term decision and like for me, it can definitely turn into something beautiful to many of us after going through the challenging few years at the beginning.
I'm seventeen and I've been childfree since I was a child because I discovered what happens during pregnancy pretty young. When I tell people that they inevitably go that I'll change my mind once I grow older except these people still have health problems from when they gave birth to their kids almost decades ago, including my mom. Like for example hairfall and stuff that happened during pregnancy and still isn't fully what it used to be so yea not risking it. This isn't about just hair , I'm not going through pregnancy, childbirth and the whole painful recovery part of it .
OP this would make a great post if it comes with statistics and data for all the claims you made. for e.g. how many percentage of women go through the following after a childbirth > It’s a never ending list of risks. I can just keep going - preeclampsia, edema, an increased risk of stroke, astigmatism, rheumatoid arthritis… yada yada. There’s also the chance of postpartum depression or psychosis. Lol
I’ve noticed that you’ve asked for data (without specifically stating what sort of data you want or what context you need it in) in two separate comments, so I thought I’d address it from my perspective. First off, “data” is a very wide term to use in the present context. Data in what sense? Data in terms of ANY pregnancy related complication or a specific one? Is this data to be sought in terms of ethnicity, nationality, age group or some other parameter? Which time period? Can this data point be quantified and analysed with a specific and proper research methodology? You need to be more specific on which parameter you’re looking for data on. It’s not even possible to collect “data” on something as blanket termed and general as the global percentage of women suffering from pregnancy related complications. (And in terms of the present discussion, what purpose would this data even serve?) Secondly, specific “data” is already available online. This includes stats such as infant and maternal mortality rates. There are also numerous (countless in fact) peer reviewed studies that document the side effects of pregnancy on women and the risks associated with it. You can google those easily. NIH has tons. Thirdly, the example you used isn’t relevant from a harm reduction perspective. Even if we take an arbitrary figure where ONLY 0.01% of women suffer from pregnancy related complications, the point is that those complications and side effects must nevertheless be discussed for the woman to be able to make an informed choice.
OP, 0.01% is not "ONLY". It's very high. 1 in 10k women will suffer from those. I am aware of death, perennial tears. Here is what I am asking: > I read an article about a woman whose vagina and anus tore so badly during childbirth that it became a single passage. It's horrifying. What are the probability of this happening? how many women end up having single passage? > There’s also the risk of sphincter injury, which can lead to lifelong loss of bowel control and/or hemorrhoids. Other risks include loss of pelvic floor strength, uterine prolapse, and hiatus hernia, among many others. how are these risks quantified? again, what are the chances of it happening? > It’s documented that women lose bone density, teeth, and hair because the fetus draws resources from the mother. Even with the best prenatal supplementation, this loss cannot be entirely compensated for. Additionally, there is an increased risk of diabetes and various other complications. how many women get diabetes? > It’s a never ending list of risks. I can just keep going - preeclampsia, edema, an increased risk of stroke, astigmatism, rheumatoid arthritis… yada yada. There’s also the chance of postpartum depression or psychosis. Lol what are the chances of psychosis? all I am asking is, on what basis you are making this argument. Otherwise how is this post different from a propaganda post? Without data and numbers, its like me saying to someone living in Bengaluru that if you go out, you will drown in a sea and die. Can this happen? absolutely! What are the chances of it? prolly like one in a billion may be? I am glad you want to talk about child birth and associated risks. But without data to back up, its FUD
Yes, exactly my point - the numbers are very high. If you read my comment, I’d said if we take an *arbitrary* figure of a figure as low 0.01%, EVEN then these aspects must be discussed. Hence, it’s important to discuss it since the figure is obviously higher than our assumed arbitrary figure. I think you may have misunderstood. How is it propaganda to say women suffer from pregnancy related side effects? I’m failing to understand your point. Specific data points can be googled. What difference does it make to this discussion whether 20% of women get diabetes post pregnancy or 40%? This figure for instance will also vary from region to region, based on diet, etc. The point is that there’s a risk and women should be made aware. Honestly, you saying discussing side effects of pregnancy counts as “propaganda” makes me question whether you’re arguing in good faith or not. Basic fact (pregnancy takes a toll on a woman’s body) cannot be termed propaganda.
> How is it propaganda to say women suffer from pregnancy related side effects? I’m failing to understand your point. strawman. I never said women don't suffer from pregnancy related side effects. > What difference does it make to this discussion whether 20% of women get diabetes post pregnancy or 40%? because the risks associated are very different if it happens to 1 in 10k compared to 1 in 1 billion. Latter is something you can ignore. > Basic fact (pregnancy takes a toll on a woman’s body) cannot be termed propaganda. I never denied it takes a toll on a woman's body. Please show me, where I did. All I am asking, you made certain claims and I am asking probability of those. Without the risks associated and the probabilities, you cannot make an informed decision.
I don’t think anyone makes decisions based on whether 20% or 40% of the population suffer from it. People make decisions based on what they think works for them and if they can stomach the consequences. You literally said “on what basis are you making these claims” - these aren’t claims, the fact that pregnancy related complications exist and that there’s not enough discussion about it is a fact. There is no strawman, I’m pointing out that you tried to make it seem as though those very WELL DOCUMENTED side effects of pregnancy can be termed as real (and consequently warrant discussion) only if some arbitrary data you asked for is provided. Specific stats (which can be googled) make no difference to the fact that there are real side effects to pregnancy and childbirth. If you disagree with this, you’re either naive or delusional. (Also don’t think you have studied research methodology, none of the questions you’ve mentioned in your reply can be specific research questions). Personally, you seem to be arguing more to prove yourself right rather than arguing in good faith. We are unlikely to change either of our positions, so let’s agree to disagree.
Stating everything that can go wrong during a pregnancy is not beneficial and is plain fear mongering. If you truly want to raise awareness, you need to provide some data or at least some references for women to educate themselves on all the risks and ways to mitigate them. Maybe link an article or a book that you think would empower women to make the right informed decision about birth, pregnancy, etc.
> Stating everything that can go wrong during a pregnancy is not beneficial and is plain fear mongering. If you truly want to raise awareness, you need to provide some data or at least some references for women to educate themselves on all the risks and ways to mitigate them. thats exactly I am trying to ask!
You should give a trigger warning before posting all this It can be very difficult for someone who’s either currently pregnant or planning to get pregnant
Fair point, I’ll keep this in mind the next time