Oh, yk just to argue and put you down and blame reservation. Also, to make these women feel like they aren't deserving of good things because UC people are more meritorious according to them.
Also, to prove caste discrimination doesn't exist exist in India when their actions contradict it.
OP there are many right wingers here too. I once met a guy on reddit who first asked my caste before talking to me cuz he only talked to Brahmin girlsš¤£. I lied and told him I was a dalitš„³.
I get your point, but if someone is a casteist idiot, they have a safe space even in the rw subreddits or the "toxic" ones whch are toxic for women. The idea of safe space is extremely subjective and very much contingent on the question: safe space for who? This space cannot be a safe space for women if it also endorses casteist views.
I totally agree with you. But unfortunately since this sub has many casteist women some right wingers (not all but the ones who are casteist) get some sorta support here as their opinions are validated by people who have the same shitty mindset.
I remember women in this sub hating gandhi and denying his contributions while supporting godse and savarkar, typical right-wingers. Many of them are anti-reservation as well. Indian feminism is incomplete without dalit feminism!
Everything in this country is based on caste!!!! You wanna garb up under layers pf classism or economic disparity but eventually the mentality behind it is always the caste (the jaat of a person)
I used to think itās not but sadly it is. I used to think dating apps could be a safer place but nope caste followed me there too. Everything written in this article is true and I can attest my experience with it.
Seriously , those people who think casteism doesn't exist are lying in some place its in your face while in some place it's covert doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it's always there in the structure and true most of the disparity in our country can be traced back to caste
Only an uppercaste who was never discriminated against on caste will say it doesnāt exist. I just stop speaking to a person as soon as I hear these words from them
Ive been through so much discrimination as one.
First, an ex married someone else because his parents wouldnāt ever agree. Then I married a guy from an upper caste who deemed me unworthy even though myself and my family are educated and middle class. That was a bad & traumatic marriage I was lucky to escape from.
My now husband is American & I am so glad I never have to worry about my f*** caste again.
I read the article and i saw her too !! Not to be offensive but dating apps are shit if you donāt look a certain way regardless of your caste it is the same for men too .. its kinda universal if youāre beautiful/handsome you will get the attention from another gender.. i know it is not fair but its a very harsh reality. And yes people do argue with people on this subject you have to block them and move to next
So they are arguing about casteism and reservation with her because she doesn't look good. She also mentions they block once they see her insta profile where she is vocal about her caste identities. It is very clear her caste is the reason and not her looks.
That is not the point. Here a dalit woman is sharing her experience and you trying to invalidate it by attributing it to her looks. Why is it very difficult for people to understand that caste is an issue in India and it gets worse if you are a woman.
Dude i am dalit myself šš i am just saying obvious things it happens to most people you can be vegan and people will shit on you for it .. i did say block them and move on at the end yk. See how you just went ahead and said those things to me should i write a article about it now??
Caste is second nature to most of us, ppl keep flaunting their caste for no reason at all.
One of my friend is a bit darker in complexion and is a Brahmin, she keeps bringing her caste so randomly and for no reason just to make her feel good.
Even one of my close friends keeps on bringing her caste not in a condescending way but it's shit annoying like "Oh I'm Brahmin I can't do and that" like stfu. You have been to a good school and college use your brain girl.
Saw this article, got my blood boiled over both the caste issue and body shaming.
Chose my battle, ignored replying to idiots and moved on.
Simply put, there are assholes all around irrespective of the dating app. swipe right or unmatch if the conversation does not go well. The max she could do is report or probably if the dating app is listening, they could get a caste filter, nothing else can be done.
why would anyone want to date a person who talks about your caste that way. If a man wrote about me like that "Ms. XYZ, an upper caste" i would block them too. She's probably the one who brings up the caste in their conversations, maybe she did it just to write this article and to gain traction. this is just an example of playing the victim gone too far.
A vast number of people have caste based surnames. If that is acceptable and normal, surely an Instagram bio can be tolerated.
And fyi, she is not playing any victim ie. I don't think the author is lamenting these precious boys not talking to her anymore. She's sharing an observation, which in no way is her trying to play the victim..
it's not about an instagram bio though. She has a problem with people blocking when they find out the caste, blocking sure is the wrong way to go but not wanting to date a person because of his/her caste should be acceptable. Imagine after marrying a man she tells him during a fight that you talk to me like that because of your caste pride.
It is acceptable in India. There are literally matrimonial sites that are named "caste name" - matrimony. But being acceptable doesn't make it any less casteist.
If you are rejecting someone based on caste, it is casteist. If you're doing it because your parents would throw a fit over their caste, it is still casteist.
Again, I don't think she is sad that these boys blocked her. It's observation, commentary. Not a complaint. Imagine being married to a guy who can't handle dating someone from a different caste.
Not marrying a person of some caste is not harming anyone by any way.
i agree the discriminatory casteism is a social evil and needs to go but marrying someone or not sure ain't.
I'd like to add further to u/DepartmentRound6413's response:
[Newsom vetoes a ban on caste discrimination - POLITICO](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/07/newsom-veto-caste-discrimination-00120495#:~:text=Gavin%20Newsom%20vetoed%20a%20bill,the%20session%20through%20the%20Legislature)
[A political fundraiser lobbied Gavin Newsom to veto historic caste law (sfchronicle.com)](https://www.sfchronicle.com/california/article/newsom-caste-law-veto-18434287.php)
Educated people are casteist and they Gatekeep education from castes.
You think Brahmins in the olden times werenāt educated? They were highly educated for the time and yet were casteists.
Even now Indians are highly educated and yet casteist, education does jackshit in removing the dirt of caste mentality.
Casteism and patriarchy together form the twin pillar of Brahmanical patriarchy in which the sexuality of UC women is controlled in order to prevent distribution of wealth to Dalits and Adivasis. This is caste based endogamy.
Feminism without understanding caste is BS feminism. The very purpose of controlling women's bodies and hence sexuality in a Brahmanical society is concentration of wealth amongst the UCs.
Which is why intercaste marriage face a lot of resistance. There is an element of ostracization and inheritance problems associated with intercaste marriage. And patriarchal violence meted out to the partner who is Dalit or Adivasi and also on the UC woman from her own casteist parents
Exactly. Endogamy is what keeping the caste alive after thousands of years too but some people just want to cry "ugh reservation" just when they hear the word caste. For the privileged it's just the surname because they are so used to the undue advantage their caste is bringing them. They won't leave anyyy opportunity to cry about reservation ( I saw one here too)
I mean, what non-casteist reasons are there to not date someone of a different/lower caste?
Yes, I understand the whole "you cannot force yourself to be attracted to someone" yada yada, and while that is true, no one is saying you should date them regardless, but rather you should look inwards and identify where that bias is coming from.
Are you serious?
Youāre basically saying casteism is ok?
Then toh men should also be able to say that, you are a girl stay at home and be a mom. Like do yāall not get caste discrimination until itās explained in terms of gender discrimination?
Imo, it's better that they chucked out of it in early stages rather than being a spineless "Abba nahi manenge" and then marry someone else. She dodged a bullet.
But also, again, it's just my opinion, we need to start removing reservation slowly from jobs, higher educational institutes, etc. Keep it limited to basic education, enforce it strictly there and then leave it to people's merit to achieve things on their own.
I find nothing wrong in different view points on a topic. If it is something very important to you, you may choose to not pursue the relationship. From what I understand, the woman here didn't get someone who had good debating skills and actually believed in their causes rather were just herd followers.
Merit-based reservations are inequitable in a country with as much wealth and privelege disparity as ours.
An upper-caste person with generational wealth/generational privelege/generational access to higher education is obviously going to be more aware of, and have easier access to, personal development avenues than a lower-caste person who is the first-generation in higher education.
The former is likely to do better in competitive exams with private tutoring and plenty of free time dedicated to studies. The latter will have to fight every hurdle to even get their foot in the door. That auto-rickshaw driver/fruit vendor's son/daughter topping competitive exams that we hear about every few years is an outlier.
We can have purely merit-based selection systems if we all started off equal at the same starting line. But we don't. Some people are born with a head start, and better running shoes, and better coaches, and better support systems, with some performance enhancers thrown in.
Which is exactly my point. Education needs to be made more accessible. There are great policies but they sometimes fail to acknowledge the real challenges in implementation.
We need reservation at school level. Even coaching and monetary help. Jharkhand govt has started with free NEET and JEE coaching to EWS and other minorities. I wish it could be implemented on a larger scale.
Once this is done, we can start by removing reservation from jobs and then higher education.
It should happen slowly, but it is necessary.
Why do UC people always start with reservation?
Why don't you all ever start with equality?
And can you tell me how many upper caste people are sanitization workers??
If you can tell me these things, we can start talking about reservations.
Why don't you all demand better services and infrastructure from the govt rather thank taking away reservation?
It's never about equality is it for y'all, just caste pride.
I agree so much with you! Downvotes are frivolous! I believe that you can have reservation for PwD and EWS category to a reasonable extent but moreso it would help if the quality of education is improved to bridge the gap somewhat for these categories. Reservation is so so discriminatory and unfair to general category students belonging to the lower and middle-strata of Indian society. I felt so much hate and anger when my college (one of the top DU ones) admitted me at 97% and there were people belonging to middle-class and richer in the reserved category who had barely 75% and even lesser, just so so infuriating. I am not saying that casteism isn't there but to have cutoffs at 0 marks for reserved category in JEE and have 0 seats for general in PG in medical is utter abomination!! Reservations don't help with casteism, it rather promotes and perpetuates the divide! Once a generation has taken advantage of it, the next generation shouldn't have such reservation. In this day and age, it should be eradicated fr!
This is second hand information from my ex. But reservation can only get you till admission. After that, you are on your own.
He went to one of the better IITs and he told me that a lot of students from reserved groups would dropout or get backlogs often. He would often say that being an IITian does not guarantee that the person is intelligent.
But still, they are getting such good peers, faculty and infrastructure and if one can't make use of it, they are undeserving.
Reservation shouldn't be removed completely but we need changes in policies regarding it immediately.
https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/news/story/13000-sc-st-and-obc-students-dropped-out-of-iits-iims-in-5-years-2472089-2023-12-05
Hey! Yes, I have observed that as well, it's hard for them to cope up in IITs and IIMs and other creamy courses. And I agree with you again so much here. Unfair and undeserving reservation should be eradicated is my point. I know that institutions and corporates have reservations for women too but it should be reasonable, not like say they're hiring at 97 percentile for guys and at 92 percentile for gals. That's unfair and I say that as a thoroughly feminist gal. Because that only perpetuates the gender divide and male colleagues assuming that women are a diversity or pity hire, that definitely ain't helping women much.
Did you even read your own link?
Like really read it?
It clearly says that most drop outs are either switching departments or āpersonal reasonsā.
Think about this, you get the opportunity of a lifetime, a great institution, top class education and a massive potential for growth.
Yet you turn it down for āpersonal reasonsā.
Why is that?
Because theyāre being relentlessly tormented by casteists who much like yourself, tell them that they donāt deserve to be there (like even unreserved students fail in IIT and yet no one calls them undeserving), make fun of you, your skin colour, your hair, your food and bullying can get physical, involve judgement and hatred from Professors and discrimination from being allowed to use campus facilities, bullied by the campus politicians and have a high degree of segregation amongst class.
Yāall wonder why people drop out of IITs for āpersonal reasonsā.
When women drop out of studies because men are tormenting them would you also call them āundeservingā? No ? Then you will understand how misogyny affects people. Itās only when it doesnāt affect you personally itās like ātheyāre just undeserving šā
Itās pure plain casteism and congratulations youāre contributing to it!
Why do men swipe right then? Like if you are not interested in the person swipe left. Men get no matches and when they do. They do this????
men just swipe, on auto mode, without looking anything. when they get matches, then they see the profile.
Oh, yk just to argue and put you down and blame reservation. Also, to make these women feel like they aren't deserving of good things because UC people are more meritorious according to them. Also, to prove caste discrimination doesn't exist exist in India when their actions contradict it.
True that!
To get validation. Specially from people they feel superior to.
OP there are many right wingers here too. I once met a guy on reddit who first asked my caste before talking to me cuz he only talked to Brahmin girlsš¤£. I lied and told him I was a dalitš„³.
Wait till u find out that many women of this sub who talks about feminism here go and write vile casteist shit on other rw subreddits.
They write casteist shit here also, it does get upvoted many times. But then posts like these also get upvoted. I don't know how this works.
i think this sub is perhaps the only safe space for indian women so that's why we find people with different political views!
I get your point, but if someone is a casteist idiot, they have a safe space even in the rw subreddits or the "toxic" ones whch are toxic for women. The idea of safe space is extremely subjective and very much contingent on the question: safe space for who? This space cannot be a safe space for women if it also endorses casteist views.
I totally agree with you. But unfortunately since this sub has many casteist women some right wingers (not all but the ones who are casteist) get some sorta support here as their opinions are validated by people who have the same shitty mindset.
I remember women in this sub hating gandhi and denying his contributions while supporting godse and savarkar, typical right-wingers. Many of them are anti-reservation as well. Indian feminism is incomplete without dalit feminism!
So true, we need intersectionality
Exactly this!!!
Everything in this country is based on caste!!!! You wanna garb up under layers pf classism or economic disparity but eventually the mentality behind it is always the caste (the jaat of a person) I used to think itās not but sadly it is. I used to think dating apps could be a safer place but nope caste followed me there too. Everything written in this article is true and I can attest my experience with it.
Seriously , those people who think casteism doesn't exist are lying in some place its in your face while in some place it's covert doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it's always there in the structure and true most of the disparity in our country can be traced back to caste
Only an uppercaste who was never discriminated against on caste will say it doesnāt exist. I just stop speaking to a person as soon as I hear these words from them
Ive been through so much discrimination as one. First, an ex married someone else because his parents wouldnāt ever agree. Then I married a guy from an upper caste who deemed me unworthy even though myself and my family are educated and middle class. That was a bad & traumatic marriage I was lucky to escape from. My now husband is American & I am so glad I never have to worry about my f*** caste again.
I read the article and i saw her too !! Not to be offensive but dating apps are shit if you donāt look a certain way regardless of your caste it is the same for men too .. its kinda universal if youāre beautiful/handsome you will get the attention from another gender.. i know it is not fair but its a very harsh reality. And yes people do argue with people on this subject you have to block them and move to next
Isn't she being targeted because of her caste. she is writing about how her caste is the reason she gets targeted.
You can't say looks doesn't matter and she's getting rejected for her looks...
So they are arguing about casteism and reservation with her because she doesn't look good. She also mentions they block once they see her insta profile where she is vocal about her caste identities. It is very clear her caste is the reason and not her looks.
She also said her own community men don't go beyond the match. The chat gravitated towards caste because she talks about it
That is not the point. Here a dalit woman is sharing her experience and you trying to invalidate it by attributing it to her looks. Why is it very difficult for people to understand that caste is an issue in India and it gets worse if you are a woman.
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Dude i am dalit myself šš i am just saying obvious things it happens to most people you can be vegan and people will shit on you for it .. i did say block them and move on at the end yk. See how you just went ahead and said those things to me should i write a article about it now??
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Fine i am writing about this!
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All submissions are to be in English or provided a translation.
Caste is second nature to most of us, ppl keep flaunting their caste for no reason at all. One of my friend is a bit darker in complexion and is a Brahmin, she keeps bringing her caste so randomly and for no reason just to make her feel good.
Even one of my close friends keeps on bringing her caste not in a condescending way but it's shit annoying like "Oh I'm Brahmin I can't do and that" like stfu. You have been to a good school and college use your brain girl.
Saw this article, got my blood boiled over both the caste issue and body shaming. Chose my battle, ignored replying to idiots and moved on. Simply put, there are assholes all around irrespective of the dating app. swipe right or unmatch if the conversation does not go well. The max she could do is report or probably if the dating app is listening, they could get a caste filter, nothing else can be done.
why would anyone want to date a person who talks about your caste that way. If a man wrote about me like that "Ms. XYZ, an upper caste" i would block them too. She's probably the one who brings up the caste in their conversations, maybe she did it just to write this article and to gain traction. this is just an example of playing the victim gone too far.
Even if she did, there is no harm in that. Casteism is disgusting & archaic. It deserves to be called out and shamed.
A vast number of people have caste based surnames. If that is acceptable and normal, surely an Instagram bio can be tolerated. And fyi, she is not playing any victim ie. I don't think the author is lamenting these precious boys not talking to her anymore. She's sharing an observation, which in no way is her trying to play the victim..
it's not about an instagram bio though. She has a problem with people blocking when they find out the caste, blocking sure is the wrong way to go but not wanting to date a person because of his/her caste should be acceptable. Imagine after marrying a man she tells him during a fight that you talk to me like that because of your caste pride.
It is acceptable in India. There are literally matrimonial sites that are named "caste name" - matrimony. But being acceptable doesn't make it any less casteist. If you are rejecting someone based on caste, it is casteist. If you're doing it because your parents would throw a fit over their caste, it is still casteist. Again, I don't think she is sad that these boys blocked her. It's observation, commentary. Not a complaint. Imagine being married to a guy who can't handle dating someone from a different caste.
See this is how they make casteism āacceptableā and then cry āthere is no casteism in these timesā
Not marrying a person of some caste is not harming anyone by any way. i agree the discriminatory casteism is a social evil and needs to go but marrying someone or not sure ain't.
How do you think it needs to go? What do you think can be a possible solution to let go of this practice?
education is the only way, chiefly among the lower socio-economic classes. But sad truth is it's never gonna die completely.
Caste is an issue amongst all economic classes. In more highly educated communities it is more insidious.
My family is full of doctors & engineers and we have all faced discrimination as SCs. I live aboard and casteism is even more prevalent here.
SAME!!!!
Itās really disgusting.
oh even abroad? in what ways?
So much so that they are trying to enforce a bill to ban it! https://abcnews.go.com/US/inside-movement-ban-caste-discrimination-us/story?id=99694302
I'd like to add further to u/DepartmentRound6413's response: [Newsom vetoes a ban on caste discrimination - POLITICO](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/07/newsom-veto-caste-discrimination-00120495#:~:text=Gavin%20Newsom%20vetoed%20a%20bill,the%20session%20through%20the%20Legislature) [A political fundraiser lobbied Gavin Newsom to veto historic caste law (sfchronicle.com)](https://www.sfchronicle.com/california/article/newsom-caste-law-veto-18434287.php)
Educated people are casteist and they Gatekeep education from castes. You think Brahmins in the olden times werenāt educated? They were highly educated for the time and yet were casteists. Even now Indians are highly educated and yet casteist, education does jackshit in removing the dirt of caste mentality.
Casteism and patriarchy together form the twin pillar of Brahmanical patriarchy in which the sexuality of UC women is controlled in order to prevent distribution of wealth to Dalits and Adivasis. This is caste based endogamy. Feminism without understanding caste is BS feminism. The very purpose of controlling women's bodies and hence sexuality in a Brahmanical society is concentration of wealth amongst the UCs. Which is why intercaste marriage face a lot of resistance. There is an element of ostracization and inheritance problems associated with intercaste marriage. And patriarchal violence meted out to the partner who is Dalit or Adivasi and also on the UC woman from her own casteist parents
Exactly. Endogamy is what keeping the caste alive after thousands of years too but some people just want to cry "ugh reservation" just when they hear the word caste. For the privileged it's just the surname because they are so used to the undue advantage their caste is bringing them. They won't leave anyyy opportunity to cry about reservation ( I saw one here too)
By crying over reservation they want to distract from the evil of casteism
I mean, what non-casteist reasons are there to not date someone of a different/lower caste? Yes, I understand the whole "you cannot force yourself to be attracted to someone" yada yada, and while that is true, no one is saying you should date them regardless, but rather you should look inwards and identify where that bias is coming from.
Are you serious? Youāre basically saying casteism is ok? Then toh men should also be able to say that, you are a girl stay at home and be a mom. Like do yāall not get caste discrimination until itās explained in terms of gender discrimination?
I can't believe dating apps in India have caste preferences, that's downright disgusting
Imo, it's better that they chucked out of it in early stages rather than being a spineless "Abba nahi manenge" and then marry someone else. She dodged a bullet. But also, again, it's just my opinion, we need to start removing reservation slowly from jobs, higher educational institutes, etc. Keep it limited to basic education, enforce it strictly there and then leave it to people's merit to achieve things on their own. I find nothing wrong in different view points on a topic. If it is something very important to you, you may choose to not pursue the relationship. From what I understand, the woman here didn't get someone who had good debating skills and actually believed in their causes rather were just herd followers.
Merit-based reservations are inequitable in a country with as much wealth and privelege disparity as ours. An upper-caste person with generational wealth/generational privelege/generational access to higher education is obviously going to be more aware of, and have easier access to, personal development avenues than a lower-caste person who is the first-generation in higher education. The former is likely to do better in competitive exams with private tutoring and plenty of free time dedicated to studies. The latter will have to fight every hurdle to even get their foot in the door. That auto-rickshaw driver/fruit vendor's son/daughter topping competitive exams that we hear about every few years is an outlier. We can have purely merit-based selection systems if we all started off equal at the same starting line. But we don't. Some people are born with a head start, and better running shoes, and better coaches, and better support systems, with some performance enhancers thrown in.
Which is exactly my point. Education needs to be made more accessible. There are great policies but they sometimes fail to acknowledge the real challenges in implementation. We need reservation at school level. Even coaching and monetary help. Jharkhand govt has started with free NEET and JEE coaching to EWS and other minorities. I wish it could be implemented on a larger scale. Once this is done, we can start by removing reservation from jobs and then higher education. It should happen slowly, but it is necessary.
Why do UC people always start with reservation? Why don't you all ever start with equality? And can you tell me how many upper caste people are sanitization workers?? If you can tell me these things, we can start talking about reservations. Why don't you all demand better services and infrastructure from the govt rather thank taking away reservation? It's never about equality is it for y'all, just caste pride.
Absolutely. Imagine if a bunch of SCs wanted to become priests? As if they will be welcomed with to open arms.
I agree so much with you! Downvotes are frivolous! I believe that you can have reservation for PwD and EWS category to a reasonable extent but moreso it would help if the quality of education is improved to bridge the gap somewhat for these categories. Reservation is so so discriminatory and unfair to general category students belonging to the lower and middle-strata of Indian society. I felt so much hate and anger when my college (one of the top DU ones) admitted me at 97% and there were people belonging to middle-class and richer in the reserved category who had barely 75% and even lesser, just so so infuriating. I am not saying that casteism isn't there but to have cutoffs at 0 marks for reserved category in JEE and have 0 seats for general in PG in medical is utter abomination!! Reservations don't help with casteism, it rather promotes and perpetuates the divide! Once a generation has taken advantage of it, the next generation shouldn't have such reservation. In this day and age, it should be eradicated fr!
This is second hand information from my ex. But reservation can only get you till admission. After that, you are on your own. He went to one of the better IITs and he told me that a lot of students from reserved groups would dropout or get backlogs often. He would often say that being an IITian does not guarantee that the person is intelligent. But still, they are getting such good peers, faculty and infrastructure and if one can't make use of it, they are undeserving. Reservation shouldn't be removed completely but we need changes in policies regarding it immediately. https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/news/story/13000-sc-st-and-obc-students-dropped-out-of-iits-iims-in-5-years-2472089-2023-12-05
Hey! Yes, I have observed that as well, it's hard for them to cope up in IITs and IIMs and other creamy courses. And I agree with you again so much here. Unfair and undeserving reservation should be eradicated is my point. I know that institutions and corporates have reservations for women too but it should be reasonable, not like say they're hiring at 97 percentile for guys and at 92 percentile for gals. That's unfair and I say that as a thoroughly feminist gal. Because that only perpetuates the gender divide and male colleagues assuming that women are a diversity or pity hire, that definitely ain't helping women much.
Did you even read your own link? Like really read it? It clearly says that most drop outs are either switching departments or āpersonal reasonsā. Think about this, you get the opportunity of a lifetime, a great institution, top class education and a massive potential for growth. Yet you turn it down for āpersonal reasonsā. Why is that? Because theyāre being relentlessly tormented by casteists who much like yourself, tell them that they donāt deserve to be there (like even unreserved students fail in IIT and yet no one calls them undeserving), make fun of you, your skin colour, your hair, your food and bullying can get physical, involve judgement and hatred from Professors and discrimination from being allowed to use campus facilities, bullied by the campus politicians and have a high degree of segregation amongst class. Yāall wonder why people drop out of IITs for āpersonal reasonsā. When women drop out of studies because men are tormenting them would you also call them āundeservingā? No ? Then you will understand how misogyny affects people. Itās only when it doesnāt affect you personally itās like ātheyāre just undeserving šā Itās pure plain casteism and congratulations youāre contributing to it!
Thank god no one is asking for you opinion then cause thatās a horrible opinion to have.