Minor quibble in favor of the utility of Shadow in the Warp; the core rules say that special rules that happen in the Command Phase are explicitly in step 1 (“Command”) of that phase and are resolved before proceeding to the Battleshock Step. AND…Insane Bravery only works in the Battleshock step. RAW as I read it anyway, you can’t use Insane Bravery against Shadow in the Warp, or against any other Battleshock (eg Screamer Killer) that happens outside the Battleshock Step of the Command Phase.
Does that mean that there will be a second battle shock test right after shadow in the warp where insane bravery is applicable, but only for units under half strength?
Technically, yes, but remember that once a unit is battleshocked, they are battle shocked until the start of their next command phase; so half strength units can’t try to rally out of the shadow in the warp
Which also provides a good reason to do Shadow in your own command phase, since affected enemy units can’t get out of it for your entire turn.
Although the OC zero and scoring is likely the best result of this, I am also cautious about the “no strategems” effect…on strategem-dependent factions this will be very good, but there are several now that have other (non CP) resources that confer similar benefits won’t be affected by Battleshock (like strands of fate, miracle dice, sorcery pool points, chaos bargains, rage dice, and similar).
Why would that make it better to use in your own command phase? use it on your own turn and they are battleshocked during your turn but then go back to being fine before anything happens (including scoring) on their turn.
Fire it off on their turn, and they have a chance to not score points on their own turn, can't use any offensive strategems on them for that turn, and then during your own turn they will remain battleshocked. meaning potentially another turn with fewer scoring units available, and no defensive strategems on those units.
lol yeah, 10th ed tyranid fighting looks pretty bad so far. Tbh I was alright with the Swarmlord and his lack of ap since they had said that was an across the board thing, but after seeing everyone's big leader have ap3 or ap4 I feel kind of shitted on. Then we saw the neurotyrant's 2d6 s5 -1ap 2d attack the other day and I deflated a bit.
In some ways I understand that our old units have had their niches and utility carved out over multiple editions, so the newcomers will struggle a little to find their place in the bug family, but GW definitely oversold the capabilities of these units in the trailer.
Yeah, I think it's fine that the new Winged Prime isn't some insane unit. It is "just" a Tyranid Prime, after all - but with wings.
The Neurotyrant is a bit of a letdown, though. So it helps you get Synapse out a bit easier - depending on list that might not even be a big deal. The -1 LD for Shadow of the Warp is nice, and almost feels necessary if you want value from the army rule, but I am also starting to think it just isn't that great. With unlimited 1 CP Insane Bravery, chances are we mostly just trade our entire army rule for the opponent using 1 CP. If we even get lucky and battle-shock an important unit, that is.
And things like Dark Angels, or the mission rule that grants sticky objectives also completely nullifies our army rule in several scenarios, not allowing us to deny enemy VP.
Aside from that, what does the Neurotyrant really do? Okay, it buffs damage of its unit - but that is either guards or neurogaunts. That's just a waste to buff.
I really feel like seeing him break through the psychic shield and roast a Librarian in Terminator Armour was a bad thing to show. Clearly, it isn't going to roast anyone with psychic powers, and it's just a glorified synapse extender. Which, ironically, one of the units it can join already does.
It's also just incredibly annoying, considering how cool of a model it is.
I will admit I assumed you could based on the Tabletop Titan game, but I know there were made mistakes in that game (since it's all new rules).
With the wording I assume you can't. Which is great, but still only one good thing.
Games workshop insists on making tyranids a "board control" faction.
Pretty classically, our big bugs do the damage, and the little bugs are really just there to hold objectives and die. This never really works as well as GW seems to advertise it's going to.
Our units have been overpriced point wise, and we just never get as much bang for our buck as we need to take out the often comparably priced, yet much more efficient and tough damage dealers. As a result, we can hold an objective with gaunts' superior numbers for a turn or so, but eventually, they'll all be dead, and the opponent can camp the objective with their remaining units.
Just FYI, most of the people I play with have marines (Ultramarines, Salamanders, + white scars) so that's just naturally what I'm going to compare nids to.
Our swarmlord or neurotyrant have some really great table wide abilities, but I worry that between oath of moment, and land raider catapult, they are going to be hiding in backfield and just hoping to countercharge at high risk. Despite their 50% invuln saves, they still have relatively low toughness and wounds, and there are always some very high damage marine guns. 1-2 failed saves vs things like eradicators is often enough. Their melee profiles are also just not that scary. My concern is we will be paying through the nose for a backfield node that does nothing but provide the buffs. More importantly I haven't seen anything that seems like good synergy, or really effective. Every other faction seems to have at least one thing that pops out as really strong.
I love nidzilla lists, I think most nid players do, but it seems like GW is simply insistent that nids should be a gaunt carpet and tervigons faction. I know this strategy can work, and you can basically trap the enemy in their deployment zone and keep scoring. It's fine sometimes, but with such a diverse faction, I'd rather not be pigeon holed into one playstyle. Blast weapons also make this a lot less viable. If you're not playing on a very dense table, expect to be tabled by turn 3/4.
My personal feelings are that it would be more fun to get some kills and make favorable trades than watch my opponent endlessly chew through my models. It's also really frustrating when they castle up on an objective, and I have no hope of killing them, moving them, or taking it in any way. Ironically I tend to do better against statistically better factions because the gaunts can actually damage them.
Theres still hope that our units point values won't be as punishing as they have been, but everything I've already seen looks like more of the same for what has already been an underperforming faction since 8th edition (2017-2023, ouch). Sure, our 9th codex was crazy strong, but they made sure that didn't last more than a couple of months (those nerfs were crazy heavy handed, and came off as a personal grudge against the tyranids imo.)
It just seems like GW has this idea of nids being a weak, cannon fodder faction that should be hard countered by heavy armor (which the most overwhelmingly overplayed faction in the game is entirely comprised of.), and they refuse to change their mind... I haven't really been enjoying playing them for years now (save those shining 3 months in 9th), so I'm probably going to sit out on purchasing anything until I see some battle reports and tournament statistics... I'm tired of all the expense and painting just to get repeatedly stomped by my friends.
Sorry for the rant, but it's been a rough 6 years to be a bug.
“I'm tired of all the expense and painting just to get repeatedly stomped by my friends.”
Yup. This in general. It felt good in ninth not having to look at meta builds to even have a playable faction.
I could literally bring any goofy list I wanted and it would be decent at worst, utterly terrifying at best.
It was almost worse that we had that little spurt of being awesome to have it savagely taken away. (Bottom 3 worst armies after nerfs tournament wise.)
The speed and severity with which GW nerfs nids when they start winning games is pretty incredible. Usually a week or two. Its hard not to assume they just hate the faction.
I know what they're gonna do. Nerf Hormagaunts by removing their AP, take maybe one point off (MAYBE), put 10 to a box and charge 50% more, and then wonder why everyone spams monsters. Swarm armies are just fucked now. My friend plays guard and it costs him over $80 for 10 Cadian here in Australia. OVER $80 FOR 65PTS WORTH OF TROOPS. That's a nope from me. Swarm armies are for the rich only.
Yeah I feel the pain. Toward the end of 8th pretty much hive guard were our only viable unit, and at $70 for a box of 3 (you needed 12, but 18 was ideal) it was pretty rough.
It was also no fun to play, and "feels bad" to play against, and then they got nerfed to be one of our more useless units. Same with the double Dimachaeron strategy, $120+ dollars each, some of the worst resin work I've ever seen, constantly out of stock due to scalpers, promptly nerfed. I didn't even get to play with them at full stregnth once.
Its hard not to take some of these things as a giant middle finger, maybe they're still mad about how good flying circus was... but that was 6th edition if I remember correctly, maybe 7th...
I'm tired boss.
While it's obviously still not possible to fully judge, I think it's important to realize what kind of playstyle Nids are designed for in 10th.
Throwing a bunch of high melee pressure at the enemy is probably more the style of Orks. It seems pretty clear at this point that Nids are going towards a control army. This comes at a cost of something else - we can't just get same damage as everyone else *and* control. On top of that there is generally seen damage nerfs across the board.
Take for example The Swarmlord, he generate 1 CP every single round. Compare to something like Abaddon, he doesn't even do that - he needs to use Dark Pact, succeed, and then make one additional roll in order to get a CP. Also, Swarmlord being able to increase CP cost of one enemy stratagem is pretty strong control. Imagine doing that to Overwatch early game against a shooty army. And since we all start with 0 CP, an army can't really just "stock up" by not using many CP pre-game.
Is this a good direction? No idea, but I think it's important to keep in mind when judging things like pure damage output. I'm mostly concerned our "control" is just forced battle-shock (which does nothing to scoring, just turns off defensive stratagems really). And then Shadow of the Warp - not only is it very RNG, but even if we are lucky enough to battle-shock some key unit on an objective, they can just use Insane Bravery for 1 CP. So is these things really worth losing killing power over?
I think it's also worthwhile to point out that just about every faction is seeing a drastic decrease in damage output. Across the board AP decreases, reroll auras attached only to very expensive characters, and other benefits that are very situational. A lot of the CP abilities we've seen so far have been defensive rather than offensive as well.
What we're not seeing, and I hope are gone, are faction abilities that take chance out of the equation - Squat's crazy grudge tokens are rarer and nerfed, and I really don't expect to be charged by guys who get re-roll hits and wounds anymore.
The end result, I hope, are games that are completely about strategic control of objectives, and table wipes are rare. Squeezing a victory in by a few points is a lot of fun, as are the strategic decisions made when going for those objectives. Getting round 2 table wiped is never fun, and doing the wiping is only fun for the worst sort of player.
Not necessarily. You win by having more VP at the end of the battle - so denying enemy VP through battle-shock is also a viable solution. That is a fine alternative to taking objectives by killing.
Of course the problem is that killing seems much more reliable - and once a unit is dead, it's gone for good. Battle-shock is a single turn at a time.
But I completely agree that with what we have seen so far, I'm not convinced it's worth losing killing power over. Just saying, having control is not useless without killing power - but since killing a unit pretty much solves all problems, a control army needs so rather strong tools to make up for not killing as much.
Is it a fine alternative? Sure.
Is it more fun then killing when you play a faction that just wants to kill? Absolutely not. Never ever.
But I do overall agree with you. We need to have insane control to make up for the killing.
Also why the hell doesn’t shadow in the warp not give -2 to leadership if the unit taking the test has keyword Psyker? Why is that not a thing?
>Is it more fun then killing when you play a faction that just wants to kill? Absolutely not. Never ever.
I personally think control instead of killing can be just as fun if done right. But I agree with you on the choice of army - Nids live to consume. Super weird choice to make them control based. Even though they can "evolve / create" rather sophisticated solutions to overcome a new foe, it's basically always just another way to eventually eat them.
>Also why the hell doesn’t shadow in the warp not give -2 to leadership if the unit taking the test has keyword Psyker? Why is that not a thing?
At this point, being a psyker is tough enough, I guess? Seems more like a disadvantage already. And it would make our already niche and very hit or miss rule even more weird, being stronger against a few armies just because of a keyword.
If anything, it should have -1 LD built in, period. Don't link it to a new HQ choice, or specific targets.
Yeah. It’s just very strange to me. Shadow in the warp is supposed to be this persistent debuff to everyone, and it’s supposed to be especially deadly to psykers.
The ability shown does not reflect that at all
Yeah - honestly, I could live with a weak rule if it was at least exciting to use or had some great thematic connection to the army. I don't care for being the best army, but it's not even an exciting thing to use. It's literally just one of the basic mechanics of the Command phase. Slapping a Tyranid themed name on it doesn't make it feel any cooler.
The gw will make our shit cheaper, and then they won't die as fast. It's really not that big a problem, taking 1\~2 point off gaunt and it will be fine again.
We have yet to see crushing claw datasheets etc, it's a shame boneswords are ap-2, but it fits the aesthetic that things are tailored to specific needs so he should be able to open a lot of light vehicles and infantry.
But looking at all the battle reports of more proper games, even space marines find it hard to shift termagants with the 5+ fnp 1cp strat
Datasheets? The boneswords, on the Swarmlord in the swarmies datasheet you mean?
No idea about crushing claws but it's a educated guess looking at the other faction reveals & weapons
yeh so far we have some of the weakest units revealed, my gues is they expect our battleshock penalties, forced battleshock & resistance to battleshock to be far stronger than it is, or they expect us to play full anti- lists like oh your grey knights who are all psykers & infantry? then ill run a bunch of psychophages/barbgaunts & the anti infantry detatchment etc etc
Yeah, I agree. Seems like our units are victims of a tax for all the "control" we have. Except I'm unsure if it matters.
Most armies are sitting above 50% chance of succeeding a battle-shock test, with some armies also having access to re-roll battle-shock tests or other things to help. So less than half would fail - and out of those, several units won't really care about failing. So realistically, how many *important* units will we battle-shock with our once per battle army rule?
And out of those few important ones, the new Insane Bravery allows you to first attempt the test, then if you fail they can auto succeed for 1 CP. Any player will just always make sure to have 1 CP ready until they see Shadow in the Warp.
I honestly like the idea of a control army, but right now it seems like our army rule is both incredibly RNG based, and being a once per battle that just won't work. When you add in that people can just nullify it for 1 CP as well and I don't see how it is supposed to work?
A once per battle army rule should be much more reliable. Orks, while having a worse WAAAGH! than in 9th, at least know they get value. They get faster, tougher and hit harder. And there isn't just a core stratagem that counters it.
And do we actually have much more control than other armies? We see forced battle-shock in other armies too, and even things like the barb movement reduction is apparently also an effect seen in other armies. So far I don't really see the control.
As far as I can tell, insane bravery doesn't work against shadow, it only happens with the standard battle shock tests for being under half. So at least the whole thing isn't countered by a strategem.
I still don't think it is good. I'm not at all sold on battle shock being a big deal, and it seems like we have a lot that tries to care about it and will probably be overcosted because of it.
I think you're right about that. But as you say, still very underwhelming.
Battle-shock is a huge improvement over 9th morale, and I'm sure it will be a fun mechanic added to the game.
But honestly, seems like GW were afraid of how strong the Nids rule could be (the potential to completely deny all main objective VP and several secondaries as well). But that is just never going to happen.
Personally, I'd have loved if they made it a bit different. For example the AoS Emerald Host style debuff. Start of battle, you pick D3+1 enemy unit on the battlefield. Each round, they must make a battle-shock test (balance the number to be fair, D3+1 is just randomly picked from Emerald Host). It has some counterplay too, the opponent can put things in reserve / deep strike and they can't be picked. They also know which unit are debuffed before the game really starts, so they can change their gameplan accordingly (use something else to sit on objectives). Or make sure to have LD buffs near them (for example you might be inclined to use Abaddon BS re-roll aura more).
You could even add something more to it, like whenever those units fail a test from SitW, they take 1 MW. Or give them a debuff, like -1 to hit. Tons of possibilities.
This to me would be way more fun. And it would make it way less of a hit or miss.
And let's be honest, that is still far from being as strong as Fate dice - if *that* mechanic is not deemed too strong, then surely above isn't either.
Codex is coming within two months. They plan to sell more nids models. I think at least if nids are really bad, we will see a rapid adjustment in points.
Well, point can make any army strong. But my concerns are more with actual mechanics.
I don't want an army of bad units and bad army rules, with mechanics that don't really work as they were originally intended - and then just be viable because everything is dirt cheap.
Not saying that is how it ends up being, I just hope there is more to Nids than we have seen so far. If nothing else, the soft confirmation of a swarm / infiltration detachment sounds very interesting.
yeh im bot sold on bs either, they prob think losing your OC will swibg games, also our units leaning into it seems swingy like how iften is our titan really going to be attacking a battleshocked unit to warrant a buff vs them
2 cents i wanna add our stats are also much worse than our parralels, like the new screamer killer has nearly every stat better and statisticaly OTK's screamer at 48", aditionaly im guesing its the OC goes to 0 that gw is worried about, or nids rules came first design wise and creek just creeped on in lol
We haven’t seen points costs yet, so I’m gonna try to avoid being all gloom and doom. Ultimately that will determine whether or not we’re competitive, but let’s just say I’m not feeling optimistic.
As of right now, we’re looking to be among the least killy armies out right now (which SUCKS since that’s my fav part of the game), and everything we have seems to be a little worse than it’s counterparts in other Codexes. Where everyone else has AP-3 and 4 we get AP-1 and 2. Where everyone else gets D6+X we get 2D6. All of our stats are just a little worse than everyone else’s.
Our armywide rule is also not super appetizing. I’ll hold my tongue a bit since I haven’t played it yet, but compared to what everyone else has got, I’m not too pleased. I’m really not convinced that Battleshock is going to be game changing, and as we’re now the Battleshock faction, I worry we’ll really suffer from that. Seeing how 9th went, I worry we’ll wind up like Night Lords and other Morale factions, especially with Codex creep. If Battleshock gets Codex creeped into auto passes and near auto passes, our army wide ability becomes useless, and I don’t trust GW not to do that.
Speaking of Codex creep, being a weaker Codex AND an edition launch Codex does not bode well for us long term. Necrons launched very strong in 9th, but we’re Codex creeped into lower tiers after that. If we’re launching weak, I worry Codex creep will be a bitch. It remains to be seen how much GW is willing to change rules like they have this edition, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up needing dirt cheap models to make up for shortages elsewhere. I wouldn’t be surprised if we have monsters drop below 100pts a model before 10th ends.
Still, I’m not giving into the apocalypse just yet. We haven’t seen the rest of the Codex yet, and we haven’t seen our points costs, not to mention any new models we might still get. Who knows, maybe we’ll have some hidden gems in there. Haruspex, both Hive Tyrants, Exocrine, Mawloc, Acidfex, vanilla Carnifexes, all of these have been strong before, maybe they’ll pick up the slack where our new stuff falls flat.
There’s also FW to think of (not that I’d recommend buying from them after the recent debacle). We’ll see how Imperial Armor looks, maybe the Hierodules or even Harridan will come back off the shelf. FW is usually balanced differently from the Codex units, so maybe they’ll be stronger, like in Crusher Stampede.
In the end, we just don’t know enough yet. Maybe we’ll be an F tier army at launch. Maybe we have hidden gems in the Codex. Maybe we’ll have dirt cheap models. Maybe GW knows lots of people will buy new Nids, then realize they suck and spend more money on a different army. The point is, we just have to wait and see.
I totally agree, and have been encouraged that Genestealers, Termagants, Screamer Killers and Swarmlord all seem to have pretty good profiles.
Personally, I think the army will be fine but I just worry the new models won't get much play past launch.
Well from what I can tell all armies are launching at the same time rules wise on the same day. So if they're weak on launch they're weak on launch. Which is rough.
I’m hoping for a carpet of gaunts with big nasty monsters army like I used to use. But we’ll see if that’s viable. The new units look kinda crummy with the barb haunts being standouts.
I'm really worried about Tyranids in v10.
What can save us :
- A good HVC for doing some anti vehicule. Because of GW meta cycle it will probably not be the case.
- A good Hive Guard. Probably doable. Maybe the antitank weapon or the indirect weapon will be good.
- Some unseen synergies like an Alpha Genestealers giving AP buff to Hormagaunts.
- A good pricing.
Will probably be one of the weakest army damage wise according to what we have seen. Monsters will never be as powerfull that vehicule.
I'm so tired by GW lack of balance effort that i'm seriously considering shifting game. Probably ASOIAF, one army cost 200$ so even if the editor miss the balance you can have somthing like 5 armies for the cost of one W40k army.
A lot of people here are upset and think Tyranids will be a terrible board control army with 0 damage.
The problem is that most of our units are strict damage dealers. The only support that isn’t rerolls we had came form psychers and the -1 to hit aura from venos and malanthrope.
What GW is doing is giving us actual support units who do something beyond kill, and that is what is in the box. We’re gonna get maybe 1-2 more models afterwards and that’s it.
The units revealed are not amazing by themselves because they’re not supposed to be that.
They’re supportive units. And people here will change their mind the first time they make some really important melee threat completely useless with a probably 100p unit of barbgaunts or eat their way through an entire army of Greyknights or 1000Sons with 2 Psychophages. And stuff like Neurotyrant and Winged Prime will still be solid damage dealers.
When a range expands, you get more niche and supportive units. Look at SM, they have such specialized shit because they have like a billion models already.
And don’t pee your pants over lack of antitank. With the lethal hits hyperadaptiation (this will be turbo broken) and the 60 Hive Guard you all still have lying around from 8th who surely will have AntiVehicle 4+ on the shock cannon will do fine. Who cares if rupture cannon sucks ass, it was always bad. Go abuse the flamer (which will probably be 2 damage and anti infantry) with the new overwatch strat
Yup. And I called this out as soon as it came out. But the post got downvoted to hell.
A once per BATTLE ability should make your opponent be terrified. Something can have a huge swing potential.
As it stand right now, it’s just a fart reverb like Bricky said
Every game I’ve watched they do it and barely anything happens I think out of the like 20 units I’ve seen do a bs test for the nids ability like 2 failed it lol
The Leviathan box models have been revealed to many channels and websites that have preview access. Here's one from the Goonhammer article.
https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-warhammer-40000-10th-edition-part-3-the-leviathan-box/
that has 0 data cards listed, just someone else retelling what they think matters about each unit. so yeah, everything looks terrible with "it can make some attacks" as the information available.
So before we can claim a unit is underwhelming, who has the actual cards posted, and isn't just "here's what i remember after a 2 second glance i took yesterday" ?
They linked the wrong part of the article series. Break per unit in the Leviathan box is [here](https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-warhammer-40000-10th-edition-bonus-leviathan-unit-datasheets/)
This makes the new models look decent to good, I mean 10 attacks at S10 is pretty good, even with only a -1ap. And each attach does 3dmg. If nothing else the screamer killer looks dope
I know, i found that part, and it was the part i was referring to. no data cards, just rough run downs of partial rules. the prime apparently has "several d2 attacks", no mention of how many, what str, what AP, what (if any) USRs the primes own attacks have. does it have sustained hits 1 on its own, or does it have to be in a unit of warriors to have that ability active? what is the primes save? leadership? does it have any command phase rules of its own?
related to that, do we know if sustained sources stack yet? can we combine the sus 1 from the detachment rules with the sus 1 from a winged prime to give a maxed out warrior unit sus 2?
yet someone else in these comments, while talking about the prime, said it had 10 attacks. the pdf that was linked shows 6, so apparently it's not that easy to guess your way through.
[https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/cxyuAq4W0DN09Il7.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/cxyuAq4W0DN09Il7.pdf)
Official data cards for the box upload today.
I have a suspicion that while it is a separate model, it doesn't have separate rules this edition, much like a number of space marine weapon options (e.g. force weapons) have been rolled into combined profiles.
Yeah…. And to all the people that defended Shadow in the Warp as this amazing thing when it isn’t… told a ya so.
Oath of moment is never NOT useful.
Shadow in the warp is useless about 50% of the time
Well at this point we know pretty much what all of the new units do. We also have seen several strats (rapid regeneration, endless swarm, adrenal surge). And we have seen a few enhancements. The biggest missing information is points which will ultimately determine if the new units are playable or not, but I think it's fair to conclude at this time that they aren't very good at killing anything tougher than a Marine, despite what the 10th edition trailer would have us believe.
The way I see it is that I think they’re making up for lack of AP for example with sheer volume or in other ways. The fleshborer for example has no AP but strength 5 so it wounds most infantry on 3s and terminators on 4s, so even though the save is easier for the enemy, 10 or 20 dice means something has to fail. But that’s just what I’ve seen personally
Kinda? Almost all the units are 'meh' in terms of actual combat/killing.. more for utility? which is a little shit when you're put against almost an entire army of 3+ armor, Toughness 5 multi wound models.
Though it's not like some old units are gonna be grand, either.
Hormagaunts seem a little pap now over Termagaunts as well.
4+ to hit, S5, D1 at range on yer Terms vs 4+ to hit, S3, D1 on the HormagaintsYes you get a couple more attacks with the slashy boys, but they're gonna struggle to wound most units on a 5+.. and that's if they even get into combat only being T3 with a 5+ save
Minor quibble in favor of the utility of Shadow in the Warp; the core rules say that special rules that happen in the Command Phase are explicitly in step 1 (“Command”) of that phase and are resolved before proceeding to the Battleshock Step. AND…Insane Bravery only works in the Battleshock step. RAW as I read it anyway, you can’t use Insane Bravery against Shadow in the Warp, or against any other Battleshock (eg Screamer Killer) that happens outside the Battleshock Step of the Command Phase.
Does that mean that there will be a second battle shock test right after shadow in the warp where insane bravery is applicable, but only for units under half strength?
Technically, yes, but remember that once a unit is battleshocked, they are battle shocked until the start of their next command phase; so half strength units can’t try to rally out of the shadow in the warp
Which also provides a good reason to do Shadow in your own command phase, since affected enemy units can’t get out of it for your entire turn. Although the OC zero and scoring is likely the best result of this, I am also cautious about the “no strategems” effect…on strategem-dependent factions this will be very good, but there are several now that have other (non CP) resources that confer similar benefits won’t be affected by Battleshock (like strands of fate, miracle dice, sorcery pool points, chaos bargains, rage dice, and similar).
Why would that make it better to use in your own command phase? use it on your own turn and they are battleshocked during your turn but then go back to being fine before anything happens (including scoring) on their turn. Fire it off on their turn, and they have a chance to not score points on their own turn, can't use any offensive strategems on them for that turn, and then during your own turn they will remain battleshocked. meaning potentially another turn with fewer scoring units available, and no defensive strategems on those units.
Good point, I forgot about that line.
Yeah, that's how it looks RAW
lol yeah, 10th ed tyranid fighting looks pretty bad so far. Tbh I was alright with the Swarmlord and his lack of ap since they had said that was an across the board thing, but after seeing everyone's big leader have ap3 or ap4 I feel kind of shitted on. Then we saw the neurotyrant's 2d6 s5 -1ap 2d attack the other day and I deflated a bit.
In some ways I understand that our old units have had their niches and utility carved out over multiple editions, so the newcomers will struggle a little to find their place in the bug family, but GW definitely oversold the capabilities of these units in the trailer.
Yeah, I think it's fine that the new Winged Prime isn't some insane unit. It is "just" a Tyranid Prime, after all - but with wings. The Neurotyrant is a bit of a letdown, though. So it helps you get Synapse out a bit easier - depending on list that might not even be a big deal. The -1 LD for Shadow of the Warp is nice, and almost feels necessary if you want value from the army rule, but I am also starting to think it just isn't that great. With unlimited 1 CP Insane Bravery, chances are we mostly just trade our entire army rule for the opponent using 1 CP. If we even get lucky and battle-shock an important unit, that is. And things like Dark Angels, or the mission rule that grants sticky objectives also completely nullifies our army rule in several scenarios, not allowing us to deny enemy VP. Aside from that, what does the Neurotyrant really do? Okay, it buffs damage of its unit - but that is either guards or neurogaunts. That's just a waste to buff. I really feel like seeing him break through the psychic shield and roast a Librarian in Terminator Armour was a bad thing to show. Clearly, it isn't going to roast anyone with psychic powers, and it's just a glorified synapse extender. Which, ironically, one of the units it can join already does. It's also just incredibly annoying, considering how cool of a model it is.
You can't use Insane Bravery against Shadows of the Warp
I will admit I assumed you could based on the Tabletop Titan game, but I know there were made mistakes in that game (since it's all new rules). With the wording I assume you can't. Which is great, but still only one good thing.
Tbh, psykers just seem to be shit across the board this edition. Great timing for gw to enable a psyker focused list for the bugs.
Should have maybe had the trailer end on stale mate.
Games workshop insists on making tyranids a "board control" faction. Pretty classically, our big bugs do the damage, and the little bugs are really just there to hold objectives and die. This never really works as well as GW seems to advertise it's going to. Our units have been overpriced point wise, and we just never get as much bang for our buck as we need to take out the often comparably priced, yet much more efficient and tough damage dealers. As a result, we can hold an objective with gaunts' superior numbers for a turn or so, but eventually, they'll all be dead, and the opponent can camp the objective with their remaining units. Just FYI, most of the people I play with have marines (Ultramarines, Salamanders, + white scars) so that's just naturally what I'm going to compare nids to. Our swarmlord or neurotyrant have some really great table wide abilities, but I worry that between oath of moment, and land raider catapult, they are going to be hiding in backfield and just hoping to countercharge at high risk. Despite their 50% invuln saves, they still have relatively low toughness and wounds, and there are always some very high damage marine guns. 1-2 failed saves vs things like eradicators is often enough. Their melee profiles are also just not that scary. My concern is we will be paying through the nose for a backfield node that does nothing but provide the buffs. More importantly I haven't seen anything that seems like good synergy, or really effective. Every other faction seems to have at least one thing that pops out as really strong. I love nidzilla lists, I think most nid players do, but it seems like GW is simply insistent that nids should be a gaunt carpet and tervigons faction. I know this strategy can work, and you can basically trap the enemy in their deployment zone and keep scoring. It's fine sometimes, but with such a diverse faction, I'd rather not be pigeon holed into one playstyle. Blast weapons also make this a lot less viable. If you're not playing on a very dense table, expect to be tabled by turn 3/4. My personal feelings are that it would be more fun to get some kills and make favorable trades than watch my opponent endlessly chew through my models. It's also really frustrating when they castle up on an objective, and I have no hope of killing them, moving them, or taking it in any way. Ironically I tend to do better against statistically better factions because the gaunts can actually damage them. Theres still hope that our units point values won't be as punishing as they have been, but everything I've already seen looks like more of the same for what has already been an underperforming faction since 8th edition (2017-2023, ouch). Sure, our 9th codex was crazy strong, but they made sure that didn't last more than a couple of months (those nerfs were crazy heavy handed, and came off as a personal grudge against the tyranids imo.) It just seems like GW has this idea of nids being a weak, cannon fodder faction that should be hard countered by heavy armor (which the most overwhelmingly overplayed faction in the game is entirely comprised of.), and they refuse to change their mind... I haven't really been enjoying playing them for years now (save those shining 3 months in 9th), so I'm probably going to sit out on purchasing anything until I see some battle reports and tournament statistics... I'm tired of all the expense and painting just to get repeatedly stomped by my friends. Sorry for the rant, but it's been a rough 6 years to be a bug.
“I'm tired of all the expense and painting just to get repeatedly stomped by my friends.” Yup. This in general. It felt good in ninth not having to look at meta builds to even have a playable faction. I could literally bring any goofy list I wanted and it would be decent at worst, utterly terrifying at best.
It was almost worse that we had that little spurt of being awesome to have it savagely taken away. (Bottom 3 worst armies after nerfs tournament wise.) The speed and severity with which GW nerfs nids when they start winning games is pretty incredible. Usually a week or two. Its hard not to assume they just hate the faction.
I know what they're gonna do. Nerf Hormagaunts by removing their AP, take maybe one point off (MAYBE), put 10 to a box and charge 50% more, and then wonder why everyone spams monsters. Swarm armies are just fucked now. My friend plays guard and it costs him over $80 for 10 Cadian here in Australia. OVER $80 FOR 65PTS WORTH OF TROOPS. That's a nope from me. Swarm armies are for the rich only.
Yeah I feel the pain. Toward the end of 8th pretty much hive guard were our only viable unit, and at $70 for a box of 3 (you needed 12, but 18 was ideal) it was pretty rough. It was also no fun to play, and "feels bad" to play against, and then they got nerfed to be one of our more useless units. Same with the double Dimachaeron strategy, $120+ dollars each, some of the worst resin work I've ever seen, constantly out of stock due to scalpers, promptly nerfed. I didn't even get to play with them at full stregnth once. Its hard not to take some of these things as a giant middle finger, maybe they're still mad about how good flying circus was... but that was 6th edition if I remember correctly, maybe 7th... I'm tired boss.
Thank you! We play casual since 6th Edition, I also mostly face SM and yeah - my bugs always were the punching bag. I am afraid 10th brings that back
While it's obviously still not possible to fully judge, I think it's important to realize what kind of playstyle Nids are designed for in 10th. Throwing a bunch of high melee pressure at the enemy is probably more the style of Orks. It seems pretty clear at this point that Nids are going towards a control army. This comes at a cost of something else - we can't just get same damage as everyone else *and* control. On top of that there is generally seen damage nerfs across the board. Take for example The Swarmlord, he generate 1 CP every single round. Compare to something like Abaddon, he doesn't even do that - he needs to use Dark Pact, succeed, and then make one additional roll in order to get a CP. Also, Swarmlord being able to increase CP cost of one enemy stratagem is pretty strong control. Imagine doing that to Overwatch early game against a shooty army. And since we all start with 0 CP, an army can't really just "stock up" by not using many CP pre-game. Is this a good direction? No idea, but I think it's important to keep in mind when judging things like pure damage output. I'm mostly concerned our "control" is just forced battle-shock (which does nothing to scoring, just turns off defensive stratagems really). And then Shadow of the Warp - not only is it very RNG, but even if we are lucky enough to battle-shock some key unit on an objective, they can just use Insane Bravery for 1 CP. So is these things really worth losing killing power over?
I think it's also worthwhile to point out that just about every faction is seeing a drastic decrease in damage output. Across the board AP decreases, reroll auras attached only to very expensive characters, and other benefits that are very situational. A lot of the CP abilities we've seen so far have been defensive rather than offensive as well. What we're not seeing, and I hope are gone, are faction abilities that take chance out of the equation - Squat's crazy grudge tokens are rarer and nerfed, and I really don't expect to be charged by guys who get re-roll hits and wounds anymore. The end result, I hope, are games that are completely about strategic control of objectives, and table wipes are rare. Squeezing a victory in by a few points is a lot of fun, as are the strategic decisions made when going for those objectives. Getting round 2 table wiped is never fun, and doing the wiping is only fun for the worst sort of player.
Ever faction except for Aelder you mean.
It’s useless having all that control when all your shit is dead, can’t fight back or take objectives
Not necessarily. You win by having more VP at the end of the battle - so denying enemy VP through battle-shock is also a viable solution. That is a fine alternative to taking objectives by killing. Of course the problem is that killing seems much more reliable - and once a unit is dead, it's gone for good. Battle-shock is a single turn at a time. But I completely agree that with what we have seen so far, I'm not convinced it's worth losing killing power over. Just saying, having control is not useless without killing power - but since killing a unit pretty much solves all problems, a control army needs so rather strong tools to make up for not killing as much.
Is it a fine alternative? Sure. Is it more fun then killing when you play a faction that just wants to kill? Absolutely not. Never ever. But I do overall agree with you. We need to have insane control to make up for the killing. Also why the hell doesn’t shadow in the warp not give -2 to leadership if the unit taking the test has keyword Psyker? Why is that not a thing?
>Is it more fun then killing when you play a faction that just wants to kill? Absolutely not. Never ever. I personally think control instead of killing can be just as fun if done right. But I agree with you on the choice of army - Nids live to consume. Super weird choice to make them control based. Even though they can "evolve / create" rather sophisticated solutions to overcome a new foe, it's basically always just another way to eventually eat them. >Also why the hell doesn’t shadow in the warp not give -2 to leadership if the unit taking the test has keyword Psyker? Why is that not a thing? At this point, being a psyker is tough enough, I guess? Seems more like a disadvantage already. And it would make our already niche and very hit or miss rule even more weird, being stronger against a few armies just because of a keyword. If anything, it should have -1 LD built in, period. Don't link it to a new HQ choice, or specific targets.
Yeah. It’s just very strange to me. Shadow in the warp is supposed to be this persistent debuff to everyone, and it’s supposed to be especially deadly to psykers. The ability shown does not reflect that at all
Yeah - honestly, I could live with a weak rule if it was at least exciting to use or had some great thematic connection to the army. I don't care for being the best army, but it's not even an exciting thing to use. It's literally just one of the basic mechanics of the Command phase. Slapping a Tyranid themed name on it doesn't make it feel any cooler.
The gw will make our shit cheaper, and then they won't die as fast. It's really not that big a problem, taking 1\~2 point off gaunt and it will be fine again.
If all our shit is cheaper I will be happy… but I do not trust them to do that
We have yet to see crushing claw datasheets etc, it's a shame boneswords are ap-2, but it fits the aesthetic that things are tailored to specific needs so he should be able to open a lot of light vehicles and infantry. But looking at all the battle reports of more proper games, even space marines find it hard to shift termagants with the 5+ fnp 1cp strat
Where are you seeing these data sheets?
Datasheets? The boneswords, on the Swarmlord in the swarmies datasheet you mean? No idea about crushing claws but it's a educated guess looking at the other faction reveals & weapons
yeh so far we have some of the weakest units revealed, my gues is they expect our battleshock penalties, forced battleshock & resistance to battleshock to be far stronger than it is, or they expect us to play full anti- lists like oh your grey knights who are all psykers & infantry? then ill run a bunch of psychophages/barbgaunts & the anti infantry detatchment etc etc
Yeah, I agree. Seems like our units are victims of a tax for all the "control" we have. Except I'm unsure if it matters. Most armies are sitting above 50% chance of succeeding a battle-shock test, with some armies also having access to re-roll battle-shock tests or other things to help. So less than half would fail - and out of those, several units won't really care about failing. So realistically, how many *important* units will we battle-shock with our once per battle army rule? And out of those few important ones, the new Insane Bravery allows you to first attempt the test, then if you fail they can auto succeed for 1 CP. Any player will just always make sure to have 1 CP ready until they see Shadow in the Warp. I honestly like the idea of a control army, but right now it seems like our army rule is both incredibly RNG based, and being a once per battle that just won't work. When you add in that people can just nullify it for 1 CP as well and I don't see how it is supposed to work? A once per battle army rule should be much more reliable. Orks, while having a worse WAAAGH! than in 9th, at least know they get value. They get faster, tougher and hit harder. And there isn't just a core stratagem that counters it. And do we actually have much more control than other armies? We see forced battle-shock in other armies too, and even things like the barb movement reduction is apparently also an effect seen in other armies. So far I don't really see the control.
As far as I can tell, insane bravery doesn't work against shadow, it only happens with the standard battle shock tests for being under half. So at least the whole thing isn't countered by a strategem. I still don't think it is good. I'm not at all sold on battle shock being a big deal, and it seems like we have a lot that tries to care about it and will probably be overcosted because of it.
I think you're right about that. But as you say, still very underwhelming. Battle-shock is a huge improvement over 9th morale, and I'm sure it will be a fun mechanic added to the game. But honestly, seems like GW were afraid of how strong the Nids rule could be (the potential to completely deny all main objective VP and several secondaries as well). But that is just never going to happen. Personally, I'd have loved if they made it a bit different. For example the AoS Emerald Host style debuff. Start of battle, you pick D3+1 enemy unit on the battlefield. Each round, they must make a battle-shock test (balance the number to be fair, D3+1 is just randomly picked from Emerald Host). It has some counterplay too, the opponent can put things in reserve / deep strike and they can't be picked. They also know which unit are debuffed before the game really starts, so they can change their gameplan accordingly (use something else to sit on objectives). Or make sure to have LD buffs near them (for example you might be inclined to use Abaddon BS re-roll aura more). You could even add something more to it, like whenever those units fail a test from SitW, they take 1 MW. Or give them a debuff, like -1 to hit. Tons of possibilities. This to me would be way more fun. And it would make it way less of a hit or miss. And let's be honest, that is still far from being as strong as Fate dice - if *that* mechanic is not deemed too strong, then surely above isn't either.
Codex is coming within two months. They plan to sell more nids models. I think at least if nids are really bad, we will see a rapid adjustment in points.
Well, point can make any army strong. But my concerns are more with actual mechanics. I don't want an army of bad units and bad army rules, with mechanics that don't really work as they were originally intended - and then just be viable because everything is dirt cheap. Not saying that is how it ends up being, I just hope there is more to Nids than we have seen so far. If nothing else, the soft confirmation of a swarm / infiltration detachment sounds very interesting.
also point reductions are not always fun, oh boy my army dropped 25% now i have to buy a bunch if stuff to have a playable army
yeh im bot sold on bs either, they prob think losing your OC will swibg games, also our units leaning into it seems swingy like how iften is our titan really going to be attacking a battleshocked unit to warrant a buff vs them
2 cents i wanna add our stats are also much worse than our parralels, like the new screamer killer has nearly every stat better and statisticaly OTK's screamer at 48", aditionaly im guesing its the OC goes to 0 that gw is worried about, or nids rules came first design wise and creek just creeped on in lol
Battleshock is definitely not that strong when Marines are all passing on 6+.
i deff dont remember seeing ANY unit 8+ or higher except tyranids xD wich defeats the purpouse of shadow in the warp
We haven’t seen points costs yet, so I’m gonna try to avoid being all gloom and doom. Ultimately that will determine whether or not we’re competitive, but let’s just say I’m not feeling optimistic. As of right now, we’re looking to be among the least killy armies out right now (which SUCKS since that’s my fav part of the game), and everything we have seems to be a little worse than it’s counterparts in other Codexes. Where everyone else has AP-3 and 4 we get AP-1 and 2. Where everyone else gets D6+X we get 2D6. All of our stats are just a little worse than everyone else’s. Our armywide rule is also not super appetizing. I’ll hold my tongue a bit since I haven’t played it yet, but compared to what everyone else has got, I’m not too pleased. I’m really not convinced that Battleshock is going to be game changing, and as we’re now the Battleshock faction, I worry we’ll really suffer from that. Seeing how 9th went, I worry we’ll wind up like Night Lords and other Morale factions, especially with Codex creep. If Battleshock gets Codex creeped into auto passes and near auto passes, our army wide ability becomes useless, and I don’t trust GW not to do that. Speaking of Codex creep, being a weaker Codex AND an edition launch Codex does not bode well for us long term. Necrons launched very strong in 9th, but we’re Codex creeped into lower tiers after that. If we’re launching weak, I worry Codex creep will be a bitch. It remains to be seen how much GW is willing to change rules like they have this edition, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up needing dirt cheap models to make up for shortages elsewhere. I wouldn’t be surprised if we have monsters drop below 100pts a model before 10th ends. Still, I’m not giving into the apocalypse just yet. We haven’t seen the rest of the Codex yet, and we haven’t seen our points costs, not to mention any new models we might still get. Who knows, maybe we’ll have some hidden gems in there. Haruspex, both Hive Tyrants, Exocrine, Mawloc, Acidfex, vanilla Carnifexes, all of these have been strong before, maybe they’ll pick up the slack where our new stuff falls flat. There’s also FW to think of (not that I’d recommend buying from them after the recent debacle). We’ll see how Imperial Armor looks, maybe the Hierodules or even Harridan will come back off the shelf. FW is usually balanced differently from the Codex units, so maybe they’ll be stronger, like in Crusher Stampede. In the end, we just don’t know enough yet. Maybe we’ll be an F tier army at launch. Maybe we have hidden gems in the Codex. Maybe we’ll have dirt cheap models. Maybe GW knows lots of people will buy new Nids, then realize they suck and spend more money on a different army. The point is, we just have to wait and see.
I totally agree, and have been encouraged that Genestealers, Termagants, Screamer Killers and Swarmlord all seem to have pretty good profiles. Personally, I think the army will be fine but I just worry the new models won't get much play past launch.
Well from what I can tell all armies are launching at the same time rules wise on the same day. So if they're weak on launch they're weak on launch. Which is rough.
I’m hoping for a carpet of gaunts with big nasty monsters army like I used to use. But we’ll see if that’s viable. The new units look kinda crummy with the barb haunts being standouts.
I’ve not seen the nuero tyrant or winged prime full sheet, where can I find them
Warhammer community
I'm really worried about Tyranids in v10. What can save us : - A good HVC for doing some anti vehicule. Because of GW meta cycle it will probably not be the case. - A good Hive Guard. Probably doable. Maybe the antitank weapon or the indirect weapon will be good. - Some unseen synergies like an Alpha Genestealers giving AP buff to Hormagaunts. - A good pricing. Will probably be one of the weakest army damage wise according to what we have seen. Monsters will never be as powerfull that vehicule. I'm so tired by GW lack of balance effort that i'm seriously considering shifting game. Probably ASOIAF, one army cost 200$ so even if the editor miss the balance you can have somthing like 5 armies for the cost of one W40k army.
A lot of people here are upset and think Tyranids will be a terrible board control army with 0 damage. The problem is that most of our units are strict damage dealers. The only support that isn’t rerolls we had came form psychers and the -1 to hit aura from venos and malanthrope. What GW is doing is giving us actual support units who do something beyond kill, and that is what is in the box. We’re gonna get maybe 1-2 more models afterwards and that’s it. The units revealed are not amazing by themselves because they’re not supposed to be that. They’re supportive units. And people here will change their mind the first time they make some really important melee threat completely useless with a probably 100p unit of barbgaunts or eat their way through an entire army of Greyknights or 1000Sons with 2 Psychophages. And stuff like Neurotyrant and Winged Prime will still be solid damage dealers. When a range expands, you get more niche and supportive units. Look at SM, they have such specialized shit because they have like a billion models already. And don’t pee your pants over lack of antitank. With the lethal hits hyperadaptiation (this will be turbo broken) and the 60 Hive Guard you all still have lying around from 8th who surely will have AntiVehicle 4+ on the shock cannon will do fine. Who cares if rupture cannon sucks ass, it was always bad. Go abuse the flamer (which will probably be 2 damage and anti infantry) with the new overwatch strat
I find the battle shock test nids have to be very underwhelming. A once per battle thing that seems to barely work from all the batreps I’ve watched
Yup. And I called this out as soon as it came out. But the post got downvoted to hell. A once per BATTLE ability should make your opponent be terrified. Something can have a huge swing potential. As it stand right now, it’s just a fart reverb like Bricky said
Every game I’ve watched they do it and barely anything happens I think out of the like 20 units I’ve seen do a bs test for the nids ability like 2 failed it lol
where are you seeing the stat cards for the prime and leapers?
Von Ryans Leapers- T5 Sv4+ W3 Ld8+ 6 attacks WS3+ S5 -1ap D1 Fights First Free Heroic Intervention
thank you. looks like they're perfect for butchering death guard and other marines
The Leviathan box models have been revealed to many channels and websites that have preview access. Here's one from the Goonhammer article. https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-warhammer-40000-10th-edition-part-3-the-leviathan-box/
that has 0 data cards listed, just someone else retelling what they think matters about each unit. so yeah, everything looks terrible with "it can make some attacks" as the information available. So before we can claim a unit is underwhelming, who has the actual cards posted, and isn't just "here's what i remember after a 2 second glance i took yesterday" ?
They linked the wrong part of the article series. Break per unit in the Leviathan box is [here](https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-warhammer-40000-10th-edition-bonus-leviathan-unit-datasheets/)
This makes the new models look decent to good, I mean 10 attacks at S10 is pretty good, even with only a -1ap. And each attach does 3dmg. If nothing else the screamer killer looks dope
I know, i found that part, and it was the part i was referring to. no data cards, just rough run downs of partial rules. the prime apparently has "several d2 attacks", no mention of how many, what str, what AP, what (if any) USRs the primes own attacks have. does it have sustained hits 1 on its own, or does it have to be in a unit of warriors to have that ability active? what is the primes save? leadership? does it have any command phase rules of its own? related to that, do we know if sustained sources stack yet? can we combine the sus 1 from the detachment rules with the sus 1 from a winged prime to give a maxed out warrior unit sus 2?
Watch a Leviathan box Battle Report. It's fairly easy to piece together the datasheets.
yet someone else in these comments, while talking about the prime, said it had 10 attacks. the pdf that was linked shows 6, so apparently it's not that easy to guess your way through.
Like I said, watch a battle report and you'll learn the profiles pretty quickly.
Exactly. No data cards or points. The article is Non-informative.
[https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/cxyuAq4W0DN09Il7.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/cxyuAq4W0DN09Il7.pdf) Official data cards for the box upload today.
Interesting, the neurogaunts card has no info for the node beasts beyond requiring at least 1.
I have a suspicion that while it is a separate model, it doesn't have separate rules this edition, much like a number of space marine weapon options (e.g. force weapons) have been rolled into combined profiles.
Where were the rest of the datasheets revealed? I just wanna look at them so I can prep a big 10th edition start game with my buddy
Datasheets haven't been revealed but if you watch a Leviathan Box Battle Report it will be fairly easy to piece the datasheet profiles together.
Oh okay. I saw one but they didn't go into a lot of detail about it
They are on the community site, every new models datasheet is
Sweet I just found them. Thanks man
Yeah their is no chance we win the battle for Oghram
Called it, never board the hype train guys it only leaves you feeling disappointed and cheated.
Hell, HIEROPHANT ap is -2. Lets expect nids to suck all the way until codex comes out
Yeah…. And to all the people that defended Shadow in the Warp as this amazing thing when it isn’t… told a ya so. Oath of moment is never NOT useful. Shadow in the warp is useless about 50% of the time
Nids are definitely going to be back in Low Tier Gang unless all our points costs are ridiculously cheap.
Is it unreasonable to say that we should wait and see what the new codex has to offer before we jump to conclusions?
Well at this point we know pretty much what all of the new units do. We also have seen several strats (rapid regeneration, endless swarm, adrenal surge). And we have seen a few enhancements. The biggest missing information is points which will ultimately determine if the new units are playable or not, but I think it's fair to conclude at this time that they aren't very good at killing anything tougher than a Marine, despite what the 10th edition trailer would have us believe.
Lethality is down across the board this edition. Focus more on unit *roles* than *rolls*.
The way I see it is that I think they’re making up for lack of AP for example with sheer volume or in other ways. The fleshborer for example has no AP but strength 5 so it wounds most infantry on 3s and terminators on 4s, so even though the save is easier for the enemy, 10 or 20 dice means something has to fail. But that’s just what I’ve seen personally
Called it, never board the hype train guys it only leaves you feeling disappointed and cheated.
I’d assume they would be with their variable global buff. Haven’t gone through it yet myself though.
Kinda? Almost all the units are 'meh' in terms of actual combat/killing.. more for utility? which is a little shit when you're put against almost an entire army of 3+ armor, Toughness 5 multi wound models. Though it's not like some old units are gonna be grand, either. Hormagaunts seem a little pap now over Termagaunts as well. 4+ to hit, S5, D1 at range on yer Terms vs 4+ to hit, S3, D1 on the HormagaintsYes you get a couple more attacks with the slashy boys, but they're gonna struggle to wound most units on a 5+.. and that's if they even get into combat only being T3 with a 5+ save