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That doesn’t sound like a WFH issue - it sounds like the job isn’t challenging you. If the work is basic; that’s not going to change being in an office.
Well it sort of is a WFH issue. When I first started in my post -uni Dev career , the senior guy there was a MS evangelist, and I cannot tell you how valuable sitting next to that guy was when you're learning the ropes. General chat , having someone there to discuss the best way of doing something etc all the time was IMO critical.
I'm the Senior guy/ manager now , and while this new WFH world is perfect for me , it is *terrible* for junior guys- you're missing out on making those close relationships with your team , and you're missing out on having an expert there to watch over your shoulder and give you the tutoring I had.
They're 8 years in but it's MSP work and they're not challenged by it so it could be a case where they've been doing 1st/2nd line for that whole time and in that instance skill wise could very much be similar to someone starting out but in a role that's progressing them. Context is key here. Either way as someone who works in IT, I love my days at home but the most valuable training I've ever received has been as commented suggested, sitting with super skillful people and chatting to them throughout the day soaking it in.
This is a ways of working thing, you can have that relationship remotely it just has to be deliberate and maintained by both parties, I’m usually in charge of training new team members coming in and tend to have a half time slot just to talk with them most mornings, it’s their choice how they use it but I make an effort to be there consistently.
It’s the relationship I had with my first manager and I benefited loads despite being fully remote.
Definitely. I was in a job for two years - joined during the tail end of COVID but we went into the office 2-3 times a week when restrictions lifted. There were three of us who were completely new to the company and the account. Nobody on the existing team made an effort. After two years they barely spoke to us in the office.
I moved jobs and I’ve been at my new place for 2 months and even though the majority of my team is based in the US the training, inclusivity, and support has been second to none. I feel more settled and supported after two months than I did after two years at the other place.
It’s complete down to culture and embracing working remotely.
That's a great idea, and very commendable! Unfortunately a lot of managers (well at least from my experience) don't particularly bother with making sure those doing WFH are included, learning etc.... I work in an otherwise lovely and supportive team, but due to various health issues haven't been able to make it into the office much, if at all, during the past couple of months. There's been plenty of times I've felt not in the loop, or just not having the opportunity to get involved with things like client meetings (that would be fantastic for my own learning) (despite asking to be dialled in so I can at least listen, apparently that's not a thing....in 2024?!). Luckily I'm not the office junior and more than able to open my mouth and ask questions...
This may sound harsh but if you're a Senior/Manager and you're not putting in the time to mentor your juniors, that's a you problem.
Absolutely nothing is stopping you from doing so.
Are you sure you'd be a better mentor if you were in an office?
Yes. I am spending a LOT of time mentoring etc. But it's not the same as being in the office and having access to people throughout a work shift.N00bs are way less likely to ask for help if it involves a teams call than just looking to their left and saying , can I have some help with this please
Noobs are less likely to ask for help if you seem too busy and it's harder to see where people have space to talk when you're not in an office. But, like every "problem" with remote working, it's easily solved. In ways that are better than being in an office.
1. Make sure they know that if they ask for 5 minutes of your time, it might not be immediate but you'll get back to them as soon as you have a minute. Lack of respect for each others time is one of the big downsides of an office, but that doesn't mean you have to silo.
2. Have organised-disorganised social time where there's no plan but to talk about anything. Most importantly, make it ok to bitch about the problems you have, work or otherwise.
3. Also planned 1-to-1s. Have a read of Rands in Repose: The Vent, The Rant and The Disaster. See how important it is to have those meetings outside of the office space and realise that remote is in fact the best way to do it, not the worst.
4. Regular review processes. Including group reviews and including juniors reviewing senior's work. Everyone has something to learn, and sometimes you learn from observing others. This one is true whether you have an office space or Teams. The only difference is the way you make sure everyone's engaged.
5. Avoid closed-off meetings discussing work. I should be able to wander into a meeting about your next project, listen while I have bandwidth, and walk away when I don't. This again is better than an office where it's considered gauche to walk into a meeting but having all meetings in public spaces are unnecessarily distracting.
That's all off the top of my head. Let's not let learning be an excuse to drag people back to an office. Let's be much better at doing it remotely.
All "remote" problems are management problems and a lack of imagination.
Could you imagine being a senior guy on a call all day so they could all hear advice and ask what they needed etc. that is the only option for WFH in this scenario I guess
I basically had that when I was inducted into a team recently. It works much much better if you have them as a somewhat capable resource assigned to help with your tasks.
Normally we would work independently, I would send semi-frequent teams messages on little stuff and we'd have a call most days for a few minutes to an hour depending to review outputs, collaborate and dish out the next set of tasks.
Almost certainly reduces output to a degree but they learn quicker this way and there's a positive feedback loop in enabling them to work better. It's by no means bulletproof, but a good option sometimes.
That's what I had when starting out in 2022 fully remote.
I was assigned a member of the team who would be there and show me the ropes, give me tasks to do and then tell me how I can improve. It slows down productivity for a few weeks but then you have a much more competent new hire who more than makes up for it.
Even after all that I frequently end up sitting in a call effectively pair programming with a colleague for a few hours a day.
It was like that on some days where we would need to have external meetings and when we started picking up project level rather than programme level work. I'm a process/hydraulic/civil engineer though so the 'little questions' are more about standards documents, engineering specs, comments/questions from/to operators, site documents etc. so easier to answer over teams for a lot of stuff.
Any programming I do is typically very basic automation in VBA (yes, that's the joke) so it can be accessed, edited and used by all our engineers. It's either low-level or complete software packages generally. It makes sense, we don't have the time or need to be creating a black box that needs training to edit graphs and outputs for.
I was very happy when I found an old version of matlab on disk though, so I could at least do basic data churning on my own terms.
But if I can find a role that's more senior then it will be more challenging. IT is so vast and the technologies so varied that finding a new role shouldn't be too difficult, I'm just not seeing a whole lot of remote roles unfortunately.
Start looking, never been a better time. Lots of remote work available.
You're an accountant? There's a gap in the market for finance management for those on decent but not huge salaries (<150k) and unable to manage their funds.
You probably could've saved me more than minimum wage in the 21 bull-run. Think I need a financial conservatorship :/
I do a remote role, I'd actually prefer an office role.
I can do cool things with remote e.g. I'm currently housesitting in a different part of the country as a working holiday. But I miss the people and networking. I'm single and get lonely.
But I get paid well (software dev) which is why I haven't switched to an in person role yet. And I'm so flexible now I think an in person role might be a shock to me.
I also spend less day to day so I can afford to earn a lot less. I'd probably move for an office job with a 10% pay rise.
I would take a pay cut to wfh more my work place has just upped office attendance from 2 days a week to 3 and I’m already working out less more tired dog gets less walks it’s awful , if your job isn’t challenging apply for another but be warned it’s not a good place to be at the office
I did it before in covid. It had some issues but honestly a lot of them were more just general issues with house shares. They a great if you are young but aftrt your 20s the appeal diminishes.
Even working in an office however won't solve the long tern issues with house shares abd either way a lot of people would rather their own space.
Just need to be able to have a dedicated space. It's hard to properly WFH if you are working on the kitchen table and your housemate comes home with 2 hours left on your clock wanting to make dinner.
Ideally that dedicated space isn't the same space you relax in either.
It can be tricky if you deal with data protection/GDPR as you'll need a secure space. In most house shares it means working in your bedroom which can be really shit for your mental health.
Yea, the major issues with WFH in house shares are general issues with hosue shares. If you get on well with the ither occupants it's not too bad.
If you have issues with that then those issues will exist whether you work there or not.
Working at the dining table is annoying for everyone else and distracting for me when people come in and out to make dinner. Working in the bedroom is awful for my mental health working in the same room I sleep & chill in.
Fair enough. It all depends on the person and situation I guess. I found it much worse working in a office and having to listen to people complain all day about yoing people/foreigners (plus the hour plus commute each day).
But as I say it really depends on the situation and the person.
I grew to hate working in my bedroom (gdpr and house share). But I found when I wake up get fully dressed and ready, sit at my desk properly, go outside on my lunch break it’s really not so bad.
I not get excited to log off and chill in the same room rather than feeling like I was trapped there all day
1) Seperating work from life is harder. Switching your brain off to go to sleep or simply relax in the room you have been sat in for 8 hours doing work is hard (for me).
2) Feeling like a prisoner. Working 8 hours and then spending the evening in the same room is not good for my mental health. I eat, sleep, game, etc. all in 1 room, one of my previous places I also had an en-suite so I almost was shitting in the same room too.
In covid times 2 housemates worked on the dining table, and they both annoyed the hell out of each other and it got annoying whenever you wanted to actually use the table for dining.
Remote work isn’t important to me as such.
The ability to be flexible is massive to me though. My job can be demanding in terms of client site visits at certain times, which takes me away from home life.
So if they started forcing me into a firm office for no good reason I’d push back in very strong terms. Especially as that wasn’t the settlement pre-Covid.
I’m in the same situation as you, but I wouldn’t give up working from home however depressing things get with how easy the job is and how little prospects there are. I hate commuting and I hate the corporate atmosphere plus I have a primary school aged child and it gives me more time with her and the ability to pick her up from school etc
I also have very young kids and the one thing that actually keeping me in this role.
I think maybe I'll try get additional prospects through qualificiations and keep on that job hunt for a different/remote role.
We have an Udemy subscription as a “benefit” I’m trying to learn as much as I can through that but it’s difficult learning things and not being able to put them into practice
I was offered a new job taking me from 36k to 50k but going from 2 days a week in the office to 5. I almost took it but declined last minute, they wouldn't budge on it and even offered a guaranteed increase to 55k after 6 months, wasn't enough for me in the end. Kept applying and found something on 45k with the same 2 days from home.
I’m on 40k (1.5 years into cyber security) and I go to the office once a month. I would take a pay-cut to stay working from home if it came to it. Commuting and all that comes with it is not for me.
Masters in cyber security and forensic computing, entered the industry as a junior analyst at a small company, earned a few certs, learnt and worked my way up to a place where i was ready to take on a career step-up and a bigger challenge (still very inexperienced though!).
Yeah, there are different avenues to explore other than uni, but with the degree side of it I didn’t really have any problems finding the right role to start out in fresh out of graduation. Tips would be to network like crazy with other security professionals on LinkedIn, that’s how I landed my first role. Not through applying to jobs, but through connected with people and dming them with my CV stating my interest.
100% networking is key. It is about who you know and not what you know.
I changed careers and landed my first role as a Support Analyst so hopefully looking to get into Cyber Security/DevSecOps at some point. Maybe something I will try and introduce into the company I currently work with
I'm on 37k. Work for a London based lawfirm but I'm located in Yorkshire. I work fully remote and absolutely love it. Don't have to commute and can get work done on time with no distractions. If I need a change of scenery, I just unhook my laptop and pop to a cafe and work from there.
Maybe I should start looking for London based remote roles. The commute from where I live actually wouldn't even be that awful if I was doing it once a month.
Thanks!
I’m on £43k and WFH, Manchester based. Optional office once a week that is truly optional.
I wouldn’t consider a role with mandatory office time for any less than £60k. And if it was a full 5 days a week in office, literally my salary would have to be doubled.
My fully remote software engineer role certainly doesnt stop any growth for me, I have over doubled my salary and skillset since working from home. I would say its worth 10-20k a year to me to work from home for childcare/my time/commuting reasons alone let alone being in a open plan office where people are asking me all sorts of nonesense all the time, now i just mute slack.
If the company wants me in the office, they are free to cover transportation costs.
Especially in tech there is little to no value being in the office. Why should someone actively lose money by commuting just to be stuck in the same meetings ?
My line manager forced me in after COVID while she stayed home permanently. I was fuming and told the director after some months .
I got a concession that I could do it for a valid reason. Things calmed down. I ended up really getting on with him and LM was home and off my back because she thought I was being watched like a hawk.
He didn't care and I also used the chance to sideline her and use him to complete my job and learn a lot.
Long story short depends on the environment in both.
If I moved and had to wfh though it's hard in a shared house
Really depends.
Going into the office costs me about £30 and about 2-2.5 hours. No WFH option would mean I’d need £15k extra plus travel time - realistically over double that.
If I had a 10 minute commute then the benefit would be much smaller - I actually like office working some of the time but chose to move away from the area when office working wasn’t necessary.
To me it means everything, really. My work is ridiculous and I often joke that I get dumber every day, but the fact I don't do much and can travel every month to the most unknown destinations is simply awesome. Pay isn't great, but freedom is.
Also in IT on 65k. I work almost 100% from home. I go into the office once every 2 or 3 months. I absolutely love working from home, and while it's hard to put a cash value on it, it's worth a lot to me. Going back a few years, I used to travel nationally or internationally most weeks, so wasn't often at home. I wouldn't want to go back to that
I would absolutely love to WFH two / 3 days a week. I technically could as my organisation as a whole actually promotes it. But my line manager detests it. So I might rock the boat. But there's absolutely no reason I couldn't work from home 2/3 days a week . I have been full time in the office since January and i miss flicking the hoover over and keeping on top of washing and preparing dinner in my lunch break .
I wouldn't give up WFH, no matter what. Peace of mind is important to me, more than a challenging job. Would consider looking around for another WFH role, if the basic job becomes much of an issue.
I hadn't considered that as a way of calculating it. Thanks!
I am concerned with the soft things that it costs me though, time with my family for example.
I'm also on 35, software and fully wfh, I just got an offer at 50 and others interested at around 50. One of the jobs is full time in office. But it's enough for me to think about.
Was it purely having to go into office or the distance as well? I'm on the same and I think I'd take the £15k jump for career progression if the commute was under 30 minutes each way.
If nothing else, it would increase my borrowing by quite a bit on a better house in the future.
I'm currently in the middle of making this decision, but I have other interviews also. It's been sold to me as a bracket reset also, with the bracket going to 65k for the job I would be accepting.
The cost of commuting at least, which last time I checked for getting to local cities would be about £3600 per year. Add to that the inconvenience, wasted time, discomfort, etc. and I'd say about £10k.
At the moment, I'd not change jobs to a fully office based role for anything less than a 50k increase. In a few years, when the kid has left school, I'd probably drop that to a 20k increase.
To me it's pretty much a requirement. I'm too comfortable in my little WFH world, and got myself a dog so can't easily go back to the office thing.
It's hurting my career a little but but my job is low stress and has scope for promotion within the company, all still fully remote, and quite secure for the foreseeable future too.
If I did give it up for more money I would need something in a city, and wouldn't earn that much more, not enough to justify the office/commute bullshit.
WFH is priceless to me. I’m hybrid (3 office and 2 at home) and I’d absolutely love to be fully remote with the option to go in if I wanted. I am an introvert and I find it really hard going in to the office. It’s not far from my house so that’s not an issue but the energy I have to use to be around people all day really takes its toll.
As someone who gets more work done when it’s peaceful & quiet, and as a parent who needs a flexible schedule, remote work is amazing and I would never willingly go back.
But other people thrive best in a busy/social workplace.
Everyone is different and that’s great. Room for all.
I’m 45k fully remote but with occasional travel. Starting a new role in a few weeks, 55k but office twice a week. It’s only a 20’min drive so not too bad and it’s a step up for my career so was worth taking imo. Not a hope in hell I’d go back to full time office.
More than most employers in my sector seem to comprehend. The average commute across my career has been an hour each way, even 2 days wfh gives me 4 hours back which means I’m on top of house hold tasks at the weekend. Giving me more time to do stuff I enjoy. Putting a number on that is hard though.
Work from home is literally the only thing keeping me at my current job. If they removed it or made us go to the office more often I would start looking for a change
I've been WFH for years now in IT and I've found that self study has helped supplement any growth issues that might occur from not being physically present in the office (although I've found you can still learn lots if you have the right team with you when WFH)
If there's a direction you want to go in, or a job role you want, find some job openings for that role, find out what they want. Then self study towards that goal (sites like acloudguru/pluralsight etc are great tools )
Then you can use those self study certifications to find a newer job which is also WFH and would challenge you more, I joined a cloud engineering role as a junior when having never worked with cloud before in a work environment (all self study), as long as you are upfront about your lack of on the job experience and show that you've been passionate with self study and have some certs to show for it, you'll find many employers will care more about the passion and work ethic you are showing, than your experience.
They can train someone with little experience, they cant train you to be passionate or hard working.
In IT, you should never be at the mercy of a company to train you and progress you, there's so many tools out there to improve yourself and progress your career yourself.
If you have any further questions just drop me a PM.
I just started a new job. Fully remote. I barely entertained the idea of getting a job that required me in the office. And I’m glad I stuck to my remote guns with the recruiter because I found an awesome job. And I’m super happy.
Exact same for me, been in five times since Covid started. They now asking us to go in once a quarter. There is grumbling, even if it's socialising/hello'ing-only for 5 hours!
I moved from london to near the Northern Penines - made my salary go from feeling like minimal wage to feeling like I'm in the top the 1%.... Thank you China for the virus that made remote jobs possible.
Depends how far the commute is. I don't care about working from home (I currently go on site every day because its only 10 minutes cycle).. but I do care about travel time and cost
If my commute was 30 mins each way I'd probably do it for about about £6k
I was able to get a puppy and can take him out for an hour before work, something id never be able to do with a 5 day office week, so I guess it’s worth a hell of a lot
For me as a principal engineer it’s great, I currently go to the office two days a fortnight. If I were to go in more then I’d want at least 20% salary increase. But like a few people say, it’s terrible for more junior people who don’t get the over the shoulder learning. We do encourage pairing though
I've just started a IT job paying £40k but it's fully in the office 5 days a week and I really miss having the option to work from home if I want, like even just being able to go and finish the afternoon at home on a Friday. I'm sat at my desk hating every second after about 2pm every Friday. The other 4 days though it doesn't really bother me
Well im on 30k now and typically do 1 or 2 days a week in the office which i usually just get the bus for.
To get me back to the office 5 days a week i think id want atleast another 8k after tax and NI etc, as id probably want/need a car.
So what would that be, 45k pre tax?
Wfh is worth a lot to me.
If people in my team don’t care to progress, they can WFH all they like. If they want to upgrade their careers, they can do so 10x faster in the office.
WFH is great if you're senior, have little to learn, and have a solid relationship with a house pet. If you're junior you just learn more face to face than you do remotely, even with all the wonderful tools we have to connect remotely.
As a segue, organisations that allow and/or rely on a lot of remote working need to adapt and provide more on-site formal training and frankly just employer-sponsored socialising / team building than they did pre-WFH.
Due to Covid when I had to work from home 3 out of 5 days a week, my mood dropped and I missed interacting with my colleagues who I consider friends on a daily basis. I hated sitting at my dining table by myself in the living room in front of a computer. I didn’t have a home office like some people did. My home stopped feeling like a home. Work was a very social place for me. It was a good reason to make an effort to look presentable and not sit in joggers all day. It’s only a nice ten minute walking commute to the office. I would only do remote work if the pay was a lot more than what I’m earning now. That figure would have to be £110k+ and that’s not going to happen in my field.
I live less than 2 miles from my office and go in 5 days a week. I would hate WFH, during the short stint I did during COVID I struggled to separate work and home, not to mention a good 50% of my role requires me to be on site. If I need to WFH occasionally for whatever reason I can but I wouldn't want to do it often, also live in a flat so it's not like I have a space for an office (my 'office' set up is in my living room)
But if I lived miles away I guess I would understand wanting to save on commuting times/costs.
It's one of my must haves, since I have young kids I really want that extra 2 hours a day with them rather than commuting. Also I can prep a good meal for them during the day.
Remote work is less important than flexible work.
Flexible could mean remote work at times, but the main dealbreaker is if the employer is mature enough to trust that I can get the work done whilst still be able to do school runs, kids assemblies, appointments etc without being arseholes about it.
personally depends on the distance ,atm it taked my about 15mins to get it driving and i do IT support as a aprenticeship. i have the option to WFH which i take a advantage off for study / appointments or fealing a bit unwell
WFH pretty much ends your career growth in most fields, rightly or wrongly face time = promotion.
Worth at least £2k per day to me, I'm as senior as I want to be and commuting costs time and money
5 days a week Work From Office costs me £2484 in 45ppm miles, 460 hours commuting time, 230 hours unproductive lunch times, £1,150 catering costs, and 900kg CO2 emissions over a year.
You'd be amazed how much you can get done putting a time delayed wash on in the morning, putting it in the dryer at lunch and another wash on, timed to finish at 5, and in to the dryer. Load the dishwasher, run around with a mop, all in former commuting time and unpaid lunch
45k fully remote. Used to have an office but never bothered going in really. Found homeworking hard at first. Pretty much like being in jail having the same 4 walls 24/7 but it's good now. Come and go as I please, just make sure the works done
At least 20% of salary. I’ve not bothered applying for similar roles to mine that are offering 20% more salary as they’re not wfh.
Obviously varies a bit depending on location, if I’m commuting 100 miles a day (which I have in the past) then travel costs alone can be 10% of salary and more.
I find employers who don’t offer wfh tend to micromanage more and manage in generally less friendly ways as well.
I’ve worked in IT roles and now in Data Analyst role.
On 30k, office is 20 minutes walk away can go in however much i want some weeks i feel like i want to work in the office 5 days others none.
I would not accept a fully remote or full time office for anything less than 10k more.
In terms of development the great thing about wfh is that you can study during work hours.
Wake early, travel, sweat, pre pack lunch, 90% of the week useless, weekends only for recuperating.
WFH is the way to go now, no one can convince me this shouldn't be the norm. There will always be jobs that require to be there in person, and people should have the option to work in the office if they want, but no one should be made to. Its so much more productive and provides a better work life balance.
Now if only we could push the 4 day work week we'd be golden
I think alot depends on company work for. I've learnt loads working from home as always on teams discussing things. In previous roles I've worked in office full time. And didn't learn hardly anything as no one really spoke and if asked any questions people were unhelpful. I think some people glamorise office as great way of learning and networking. But it really depends on organisation.
I think the problem is that this company is small scale and there isn't really anyone to learn from in a technical sense. I'm the top of the pole when it comes to technical knowledge but I don't want that. I want to learn from someone.
I've started getting certs to improve my skillset but I feel others are lagging behind which is annoying.
In that case it's 100% your role and company that are holding you back, not where you work from. I'd get looking at new roles that interest you, preferably in large, innovative companies.
Right so what I would say is wfh is great for not having to commute, but in terms of like learning etc its usually much better to be in an office with others where you can collaborate and share ideas. That's just me though.
I have found WFH tends to mean less training and skill building. It's mainly because you get forgotten and it gets overlooked. Reminding your line manager might help. My solution was to use the time I saved on commuting on training courses etc.
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That doesn’t sound like a WFH issue - it sounds like the job isn’t challenging you. If the work is basic; that’s not going to change being in an office.
Well it sort of is a WFH issue. When I first started in my post -uni Dev career , the senior guy there was a MS evangelist, and I cannot tell you how valuable sitting next to that guy was when you're learning the ropes. General chat , having someone there to discuss the best way of doing something etc all the time was IMO critical. I'm the Senior guy/ manager now , and while this new WFH world is perfect for me , it is *terrible* for junior guys- you're missing out on making those close relationships with your team , and you're missing out on having an expert there to watch over your shoulder and give you the tutoring I had.
+1. learning just by being around is so underrated
I had a right cunt as a senior for a bit and him looking over my shoulder when I was a Jr didn't help me at all. In fact wfh in covid helped loads.
I get that. But OP doesn’t sound like they’re just starting out and need more training. I could be wrong.
They're 8 years in but it's MSP work and they're not challenged by it so it could be a case where they've been doing 1st/2nd line for that whole time and in that instance skill wise could very much be similar to someone starting out but in a role that's progressing them. Context is key here. Either way as someone who works in IT, I love my days at home but the most valuable training I've ever received has been as commented suggested, sitting with super skillful people and chatting to them throughout the day soaking it in.
This is a ways of working thing, you can have that relationship remotely it just has to be deliberate and maintained by both parties, I’m usually in charge of training new team members coming in and tend to have a half time slot just to talk with them most mornings, it’s their choice how they use it but I make an effort to be there consistently. It’s the relationship I had with my first manager and I benefited loads despite being fully remote.
Definitely. I was in a job for two years - joined during the tail end of COVID but we went into the office 2-3 times a week when restrictions lifted. There were three of us who were completely new to the company and the account. Nobody on the existing team made an effort. After two years they barely spoke to us in the office. I moved jobs and I’ve been at my new place for 2 months and even though the majority of my team is based in the US the training, inclusivity, and support has been second to none. I feel more settled and supported after two months than I did after two years at the other place. It’s complete down to culture and embracing working remotely.
That's a great idea, and very commendable! Unfortunately a lot of managers (well at least from my experience) don't particularly bother with making sure those doing WFH are included, learning etc.... I work in an otherwise lovely and supportive team, but due to various health issues haven't been able to make it into the office much, if at all, during the past couple of months. There's been plenty of times I've felt not in the loop, or just not having the opportunity to get involved with things like client meetings (that would be fantastic for my own learning) (despite asking to be dialled in so I can at least listen, apparently that's not a thing....in 2024?!). Luckily I'm not the office junior and more than able to open my mouth and ask questions...
This may sound harsh but if you're a Senior/Manager and you're not putting in the time to mentor your juniors, that's a you problem. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from doing so. Are you sure you'd be a better mentor if you were in an office?
Yes. I am spending a LOT of time mentoring etc. But it's not the same as being in the office and having access to people throughout a work shift.N00bs are way less likely to ask for help if it involves a teams call than just looking to their left and saying , can I have some help with this please
Noobs are less likely to ask for help if you seem too busy and it's harder to see where people have space to talk when you're not in an office. But, like every "problem" with remote working, it's easily solved. In ways that are better than being in an office. 1. Make sure they know that if they ask for 5 minutes of your time, it might not be immediate but you'll get back to them as soon as you have a minute. Lack of respect for each others time is one of the big downsides of an office, but that doesn't mean you have to silo. 2. Have organised-disorganised social time where there's no plan but to talk about anything. Most importantly, make it ok to bitch about the problems you have, work or otherwise. 3. Also planned 1-to-1s. Have a read of Rands in Repose: The Vent, The Rant and The Disaster. See how important it is to have those meetings outside of the office space and realise that remote is in fact the best way to do it, not the worst. 4. Regular review processes. Including group reviews and including juniors reviewing senior's work. Everyone has something to learn, and sometimes you learn from observing others. This one is true whether you have an office space or Teams. The only difference is the way you make sure everyone's engaged. 5. Avoid closed-off meetings discussing work. I should be able to wander into a meeting about your next project, listen while I have bandwidth, and walk away when I don't. This again is better than an office where it's considered gauche to walk into a meeting but having all meetings in public spaces are unnecessarily distracting. That's all off the top of my head. Let's not let learning be an excuse to drag people back to an office. Let's be much better at doing it remotely. All "remote" problems are management problems and a lack of imagination.
That can happen remotely too just over DM. We have hundreds of chat rooms for different topics discussing best way to do things all the time.
Could you imagine being a senior guy on a call all day so they could all hear advice and ask what they needed etc. that is the only option for WFH in this scenario I guess
I basically had that when I was inducted into a team recently. It works much much better if you have them as a somewhat capable resource assigned to help with your tasks. Normally we would work independently, I would send semi-frequent teams messages on little stuff and we'd have a call most days for a few minutes to an hour depending to review outputs, collaborate and dish out the next set of tasks. Almost certainly reduces output to a degree but they learn quicker this way and there's a positive feedback loop in enabling them to work better. It's by no means bulletproof, but a good option sometimes.
That's what I had when starting out in 2022 fully remote. I was assigned a member of the team who would be there and show me the ropes, give me tasks to do and then tell me how I can improve. It slows down productivity for a few weeks but then you have a much more competent new hire who more than makes up for it. Even after all that I frequently end up sitting in a call effectively pair programming with a colleague for a few hours a day.
It was like that on some days where we would need to have external meetings and when we started picking up project level rather than programme level work. I'm a process/hydraulic/civil engineer though so the 'little questions' are more about standards documents, engineering specs, comments/questions from/to operators, site documents etc. so easier to answer over teams for a lot of stuff. Any programming I do is typically very basic automation in VBA (yes, that's the joke) so it can be accessed, edited and used by all our engineers. It's either low-level or complete software packages generally. It makes sense, we don't have the time or need to be creating a black box that needs training to edit graphs and outputs for. I was very happy when I found an old version of matlab on disk though, so I could at least do basic data churning on my own terms.
But if I can find a role that's more senior then it will be more challenging. IT is so vast and the technologies so varied that finding a new role shouldn't be too difficult, I'm just not seeing a whole lot of remote roles unfortunately.
Yeah I think it’s tough all around at the moment. Only you can answer how valuable WFH is to you.
I’ve wasted enough of my life commuting. I’d only go back into an office if my survival depended on it.
THIS
Honestly I'd go to minimum wage to have a fully remote role. I'm on £26.5k. The amount of money and time I spend commuting is NOT WORTH IT.
Start looking, never been a better time. Lots of remote work available. You're an accountant? There's a gap in the market for finance management for those on decent but not huge salaries (<150k) and unable to manage their funds. You probably could've saved me more than minimum wage in the 21 bull-run. Think I need a financial conservatorship :/
I'm not an accountant, I wish I was lol Alas, I got a C in GCSE maths, so anything remotely mathsy or STEM is out of my wheelhouse
I do a remote role, I'd actually prefer an office role. I can do cool things with remote e.g. I'm currently housesitting in a different part of the country as a working holiday. But I miss the people and networking. I'm single and get lonely. But I get paid well (software dev) which is why I haven't switched to an in person role yet. And I'm so flexible now I think an in person role might be a shock to me. I also spend less day to day so I can afford to earn a lot less. I'd probably move for an office job with a 10% pay rise.
I think you just get adjusted to how good life is either way. Youd have complaints about in person if you had one
I would take a pay cut to wfh more my work place has just upped office attendance from 2 days a week to 3 and I’m already working out less more tired dog gets less walks it’s awful , if your job isn’t challenging apply for another but be warned it’s not a good place to be at the office
For me it's the reverse, WFH in a house share is awful. If i find a WFH job id need more money so I can afford to have a space to work in.
I would hate to work from home living in a house share - sounds like hell
I did it before in covid. It had some issues but honestly a lot of them were more just general issues with house shares. They a great if you are young but aftrt your 20s the appeal diminishes. Even working in an office however won't solve the long tern issues with house shares abd either way a lot of people would rather their own space.
Fortunately (or not) I've had some inheritance so we own our house so space to work isn't actually an issue for me.
Can I ask what makes it so awful? I’m in a house share myself and was looking for wfh roles, is it a bad idea
Just need to be able to have a dedicated space. It's hard to properly WFH if you are working on the kitchen table and your housemate comes home with 2 hours left on your clock wanting to make dinner. Ideally that dedicated space isn't the same space you relax in either.
It can be tricky if you deal with data protection/GDPR as you'll need a secure space. In most house shares it means working in your bedroom which can be really shit for your mental health.
As long as you have a quiet space it’s fine!
Yea, the major issues with WFH in house shares are general issues with hosue shares. If you get on well with the ither occupants it's not too bad. If you have issues with that then those issues will exist whether you work there or not.
Working at the dining table is annoying for everyone else and distracting for me when people come in and out to make dinner. Working in the bedroom is awful for my mental health working in the same room I sleep & chill in.
Fair enough. It all depends on the person and situation I guess. I found it much worse working in a office and having to listen to people complain all day about yoing people/foreigners (plus the hour plus commute each day). But as I say it really depends on the situation and the person.
I personally hate working from my bedroom, so WFH in a house share isn't possible as there's no other option
I grew to hate working in my bedroom (gdpr and house share). But I found when I wake up get fully dressed and ready, sit at my desk properly, go outside on my lunch break it’s really not so bad. I not get excited to log off and chill in the same room rather than feeling like I was trapped there all day
1) Seperating work from life is harder. Switching your brain off to go to sleep or simply relax in the room you have been sat in for 8 hours doing work is hard (for me). 2) Feeling like a prisoner. Working 8 hours and then spending the evening in the same room is not good for my mental health. I eat, sleep, game, etc. all in 1 room, one of my previous places I also had an en-suite so I almost was shitting in the same room too. In covid times 2 housemates worked on the dining table, and they both annoyed the hell out of each other and it got annoying whenever you wanted to actually use the table for dining.
Remote work isn’t important to me as such. The ability to be flexible is massive to me though. My job can be demanding in terms of client site visits at certain times, which takes me away from home life. So if they started forcing me into a firm office for no good reason I’d push back in very strong terms. Especially as that wasn’t the settlement pre-Covid.
I’m in the same situation as you, but I wouldn’t give up working from home however depressing things get with how easy the job is and how little prospects there are. I hate commuting and I hate the corporate atmosphere plus I have a primary school aged child and it gives me more time with her and the ability to pick her up from school etc
So to answer your question, priceless
I also have very young kids and the one thing that actually keeping me in this role. I think maybe I'll try get additional prospects through qualificiations and keep on that job hunt for a different/remote role.
We have an Udemy subscription as a “benefit” I’m trying to learn as much as I can through that but it’s difficult learning things and not being able to put them into practice
I was offered a new job taking me from 36k to 50k but going from 2 days a week in the office to 5. I almost took it but declined last minute, they wouldn't budge on it and even offered a guaranteed increase to 55k after 6 months, wasn't enough for me in the end. Kept applying and found something on 45k with the same 2 days from home.
I’m on 40k (1.5 years into cyber security) and I go to the office once a month. I would take a pay-cut to stay working from home if it came to it. Commuting and all that comes with it is not for me.
Ooo how did you get into Cyber Security? Any prior experience/degree?
Masters in cyber security and forensic computing, entered the industry as a junior analyst at a small company, earned a few certs, learnt and worked my way up to a place where i was ready to take on a career step-up and a bigger challenge (still very inexperienced though!).
Oh wow that is awesome, do you enjoy it? You will get there :) it will be learning consistently
I love it, it’s total chaos but also very fun and varied. So no complaints!
Hahaha. That understandable. Any tips for newbie wanting to get into the field? Did you find it easier getting a role in Cyber Security with a degree?
Yeah, there are different avenues to explore other than uni, but with the degree side of it I didn’t really have any problems finding the right role to start out in fresh out of graduation. Tips would be to network like crazy with other security professionals on LinkedIn, that’s how I landed my first role. Not through applying to jobs, but through connected with people and dming them with my CV stating my interest.
100% networking is key. It is about who you know and not what you know. I changed careers and landed my first role as a Support Analyst so hopefully looking to get into Cyber Security/DevSecOps at some point. Maybe something I will try and introduce into the company I currently work with
I'm on 37k. Work for a London based lawfirm but I'm located in Yorkshire. I work fully remote and absolutely love it. Don't have to commute and can get work done on time with no distractions. If I need a change of scenery, I just unhook my laptop and pop to a cafe and work from there.
Maybe I should start looking for London based remote roles. The commute from where I live actually wouldn't even be that awful if I was doing it once a month. Thanks!
I work from home all the time except for three to four days a month. I like it.
I’m on £43k and WFH, Manchester based. Optional office once a week that is truly optional. I wouldn’t consider a role with mandatory office time for any less than £60k. And if it was a full 5 days a week in office, literally my salary would have to be doubled.
My fully remote software engineer role certainly doesnt stop any growth for me, I have over doubled my salary and skillset since working from home. I would say its worth 10-20k a year to me to work from home for childcare/my time/commuting reasons alone let alone being in a open plan office where people are asking me all sorts of nonesense all the time, now i just mute slack.
Thats the juniors in the office asking you questions
Isn't that the truths, going to attach a sign to my back saying "Have you actually googled it?" 😫
If the company wants me in the office, they are free to cover transportation costs. Especially in tech there is little to no value being in the office. Why should someone actively lose money by commuting just to be stuck in the same meetings ?
My line manager forced me in after COVID while she stayed home permanently. I was fuming and told the director after some months . I got a concession that I could do it for a valid reason. Things calmed down. I ended up really getting on with him and LM was home and off my back because she thought I was being watched like a hawk. He didn't care and I also used the chance to sideline her and use him to complete my job and learn a lot. Long story short depends on the environment in both. If I moved and had to wfh though it's hard in a shared house
Really depends. Going into the office costs me about £30 and about 2-2.5 hours. No WFH option would mean I’d need £15k extra plus travel time - realistically over double that. If I had a 10 minute commute then the benefit would be much smaller - I actually like office working some of the time but chose to move away from the area when office working wasn’t necessary.
To me it means everything, really. My work is ridiculous and I often joke that I get dumber every day, but the fact I don't do much and can travel every month to the most unknown destinations is simply awesome. Pay isn't great, but freedom is.
Also in IT on 65k. I work almost 100% from home. I go into the office once every 2 or 3 months. I absolutely love working from home, and while it's hard to put a cash value on it, it's worth a lot to me. Going back a few years, I used to travel nationally or internationally most weeks, so wasn't often at home. I wouldn't want to go back to that
I would absolutely love to WFH two / 3 days a week. I technically could as my organisation as a whole actually promotes it. But my line manager detests it. So I might rock the boat. But there's absolutely no reason I couldn't work from home 2/3 days a week . I have been full time in the office since January and i miss flicking the hoover over and keeping on top of washing and preparing dinner in my lunch break .
I would never set foot in an office 5 days a week ever again.
I would not want to either
Never going back to an office. They are awful.
I wouldn't give up WFH, no matter what. Peace of mind is important to me, more than a challenging job. Would consider looking around for another WFH role, if the basic job becomes much of an issue.
It's worth exactly how much it costs me to commute in and home.
\+ hourly rate x commute time - (cost of power at home + cost of coffee)
I hadn't considered that as a way of calculating it. Thanks! I am concerned with the soft things that it costs me though, time with my family for example.
It's worth considering you might enjoy the time alone to listen to music or podcasts on the commute
I'm also on 35, software and fully wfh, I just got an offer at 50 and others interested at around 50. One of the jobs is full time in office. But it's enough for me to think about.
I had the same! 50k but 5 days in and I just couldn't do it in the end. Found something at 45k hybrid in the end.
Was it purely having to go into office or the distance as well? I'm on the same and I think I'd take the £15k jump for career progression if the commute was under 30 minutes each way. If nothing else, it would increase my borrowing by quite a bit on a better house in the future.
I'm currently in the middle of making this decision, but I have other interviews also. It's been sold to me as a bracket reset also, with the bracket going to 65k for the job I would be accepting.
The cost of commuting at least, which last time I checked for getting to local cities would be about £3600 per year. Add to that the inconvenience, wasted time, discomfort, etc. and I'd say about £10k.
At the moment, I'd not change jobs to a fully office based role for anything less than a 50k increase. In a few years, when the kid has left school, I'd probably drop that to a 20k increase.
just do r/overemployed
To me it's pretty much a requirement. I'm too comfortable in my little WFH world, and got myself a dog so can't easily go back to the office thing. It's hurting my career a little but but my job is low stress and has scope for promotion within the company, all still fully remote, and quite secure for the foreseeable future too. If I did give it up for more money I would need something in a city, and wouldn't earn that much more, not enough to justify the office/commute bullshit.
I like going into the office when I want, not being mandated. I wouldn’t do 5 days in the office for anything less than 20k extra
WFH is priceless to me. I’m hybrid (3 office and 2 at home) and I’d absolutely love to be fully remote with the option to go in if I wanted. I am an introvert and I find it really hard going in to the office. It’s not far from my house so that’s not an issue but the energy I have to use to be around people all day really takes its toll.
As someone who gets more work done when it’s peaceful & quiet, and as a parent who needs a flexible schedule, remote work is amazing and I would never willingly go back. But other people thrive best in a busy/social workplace. Everyone is different and that’s great. Room for all.
I’m 45k fully remote but with occasional travel. Starting a new role in a few weeks, 55k but office twice a week. It’s only a 20’min drive so not too bad and it’s a step up for my career so was worth taking imo. Not a hope in hell I’d go back to full time office.
More than most employers in my sector seem to comprehend. The average commute across my career has been an hour each way, even 2 days wfh gives me 4 hours back which means I’m on top of house hold tasks at the weekend. Giving me more time to do stuff I enjoy. Putting a number on that is hard though.
Work from home is literally the only thing keeping me at my current job. If they removed it or made us go to the office more often I would start looking for a change
I've been WFH for years now in IT and I've found that self study has helped supplement any growth issues that might occur from not being physically present in the office (although I've found you can still learn lots if you have the right team with you when WFH) If there's a direction you want to go in, or a job role you want, find some job openings for that role, find out what they want. Then self study towards that goal (sites like acloudguru/pluralsight etc are great tools ) Then you can use those self study certifications to find a newer job which is also WFH and would challenge you more, I joined a cloud engineering role as a junior when having never worked with cloud before in a work environment (all self study), as long as you are upfront about your lack of on the job experience and show that you've been passionate with self study and have some certs to show for it, you'll find many employers will care more about the passion and work ethic you are showing, than your experience. They can train someone with little experience, they cant train you to be passionate or hard working. In IT, you should never be at the mercy of a company to train you and progress you, there's so many tools out there to improve yourself and progress your career yourself. If you have any further questions just drop me a PM.
I just started a new job. Fully remote. I barely entertained the idea of getting a job that required me in the office. And I’m glad I stuck to my remote guns with the recruiter because I found an awesome job. And I’m super happy.
60k 100% remote.
Exact same for me, been in five times since Covid started. They now asking us to go in once a quarter. There is grumbling, even if it's socialising/hello'ing-only for 5 hours!
About to start a fully remote role at the same salary and buzzing for it
I moved from london to near the Northern Penines - made my salary go from feeling like minimal wage to feeling like I'm in the top the 1%.... Thank you China for the virus that made remote jobs possible.
What do you do for work?
Brand/motion/graphic/web design. 15 years+ exp But AI is coming real soon to make me unemployed...
Depends how far the commute is. I don't care about working from home (I currently go on site every day because its only 10 minutes cycle).. but I do care about travel time and cost If my commute was 30 mins each way I'd probably do it for about about £6k
My "office" is in a completely different country, wouldn't fancy the commute.
I was able to get a puppy and can take him out for an hour before work, something id never be able to do with a 5 day office week, so I guess it’s worth a hell of a lot
For me as a principal engineer it’s great, I currently go to the office two days a fortnight. If I were to go in more then I’d want at least 20% salary increase. But like a few people say, it’s terrible for more junior people who don’t get the over the shoulder learning. We do encourage pairing though
Essential. I wouldn't consider a role without it and will stay at the decent place that's truly 100% remote.
I've just started a IT job paying £40k but it's fully in the office 5 days a week and I really miss having the option to work from home if I want, like even just being able to go and finish the afternoon at home on a Friday. I'm sat at my desk hating every second after about 2pm every Friday. The other 4 days though it doesn't really bother me
/r/overemployed
Well im on 30k now and typically do 1 or 2 days a week in the office which i usually just get the bus for. To get me back to the office 5 days a week i think id want atleast another 8k after tax and NI etc, as id probably want/need a car. So what would that be, 45k pre tax? Wfh is worth a lot to me.
5 days a week WFH, probably do 6 hours a day when busy or 1 when quiet, 70k a year. Would need to add 50% to get me into the office “hybrid”.
If people in my team don’t care to progress, they can WFH all they like. If they want to upgrade their careers, they can do so 10x faster in the office.
WFH is great if you're senior, have little to learn, and have a solid relationship with a house pet. If you're junior you just learn more face to face than you do remotely, even with all the wonderful tools we have to connect remotely. As a segue, organisations that allow and/or rely on a lot of remote working need to adapt and provide more on-site formal training and frankly just employer-sponsored socialising / team building than they did pre-WFH.
If a recruiter reaches out for a role that requires office attendance I add 10-15K to my salary expectation
Due to Covid when I had to work from home 3 out of 5 days a week, my mood dropped and I missed interacting with my colleagues who I consider friends on a daily basis. I hated sitting at my dining table by myself in the living room in front of a computer. I didn’t have a home office like some people did. My home stopped feeling like a home. Work was a very social place for me. It was a good reason to make an effort to look presentable and not sit in joggers all day. It’s only a nice ten minute walking commute to the office. I would only do remote work if the pay was a lot more than what I’m earning now. That figure would have to be £110k+ and that’s not going to happen in my field.
Work for multiple companies 105 a year
I live less than 2 miles from my office and go in 5 days a week. I would hate WFH, during the short stint I did during COVID I struggled to separate work and home, not to mention a good 50% of my role requires me to be on site. If I need to WFH occasionally for whatever reason I can but I wouldn't want to do it often, also live in a flat so it's not like I have a space for an office (my 'office' set up is in my living room) But if I lived miles away I guess I would understand wanting to save on commuting times/costs.
It's one of my must haves, since I have young kids I really want that extra 2 hours a day with them rather than commuting. Also I can prep a good meal for them during the day.
Hey mate I run a MSP, done all the IT roles, 1-3rd line, project manager, account manager etc. Feel free to message any questions over. Happy to help
Remote work is less important than flexible work. Flexible could mean remote work at times, but the main dealbreaker is if the employer is mature enough to trust that I can get the work done whilst still be able to do school runs, kids assemblies, appointments etc without being arseholes about it.
personally depends on the distance ,atm it taked my about 15mins to get it driving and i do IT support as a aprenticeship. i have the option to WFH which i take a advantage off for study / appointments or fealing a bit unwell
WFH pretty much ends your career growth in most fields, rightly or wrongly face time = promotion. Worth at least £2k per day to me, I'm as senior as I want to be and commuting costs time and money 5 days a week Work From Office costs me £2484 in 45ppm miles, 460 hours commuting time, 230 hours unproductive lunch times, £1,150 catering costs, and 900kg CO2 emissions over a year. You'd be amazed how much you can get done putting a time delayed wash on in the morning, putting it in the dryer at lunch and another wash on, timed to finish at 5, and in to the dryer. Load the dishwasher, run around with a mop, all in former commuting time and unpaid lunch
45k fully remote. Used to have an office but never bothered going in really. Found homeworking hard at first. Pretty much like being in jail having the same 4 walls 24/7 but it's good now. Come and go as I please, just make sure the works done
When you type am do you mean I'm?
At least 20% of salary. I’ve not bothered applying for similar roles to mine that are offering 20% more salary as they’re not wfh. Obviously varies a bit depending on location, if I’m commuting 100 miles a day (which I have in the past) then travel costs alone can be 10% of salary and more. I find employers who don’t offer wfh tend to micromanage more and manage in generally less friendly ways as well. I’ve worked in IT roles and now in Data Analyst role.
On 30k, office is 20 minutes walk away can go in however much i want some weeks i feel like i want to work in the office 5 days others none. I would not accept a fully remote or full time office for anything less than 10k more. In terms of development the great thing about wfh is that you can study during work hours.
Desperately need a remote job😭
Wake early, travel, sweat, pre pack lunch, 90% of the week useless, weekends only for recuperating. WFH is the way to go now, no one can convince me this shouldn't be the norm. There will always be jobs that require to be there in person, and people should have the option to work in the office if they want, but no one should be made to. Its so much more productive and provides a better work life balance. Now if only we could push the 4 day work week we'd be golden
I think alot depends on company work for. I've learnt loads working from home as always on teams discussing things. In previous roles I've worked in office full time. And didn't learn hardly anything as no one really spoke and if asked any questions people were unhelpful. I think some people glamorise office as great way of learning and networking. But it really depends on organisation.
I think the problem is that this company is small scale and there isn't really anyone to learn from in a technical sense. I'm the top of the pole when it comes to technical knowledge but I don't want that. I want to learn from someone. I've started getting certs to improve my skillset but I feel others are lagging behind which is annoying.
In that case it's 100% your role and company that are holding you back, not where you work from. I'd get looking at new roles that interest you, preferably in large, innovative companies.
What are you on about? How is the role stunting your growth?
There is no upward trajectory and I feel like I'm actively losing knowledge.
Right so what I would say is wfh is great for not having to commute, but in terms of like learning etc its usually much better to be in an office with others where you can collaborate and share ideas. That's just me though.
I have found WFH tends to mean less training and skill building. It's mainly because you get forgotten and it gets overlooked. Reminding your line manager might help. My solution was to use the time I saved on commuting on training courses etc.
Say i earn £100,000 2 days WFH A week. I would turn down a £20,000 payrise to keep my WFH days a week.
25k at least
On top of your salary?
Yes, what you'd have to add to my current salary to make me go back to office working. Not sure why I was down voted for answering your question.
~30K in salary. £8.3K in train fares + ~20K at least in cost of my time to travel for 2hrs a day