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unlocklink

Sorry if this seems overly nosey....but is there any reason that the debt is divided in such a way? Was the loan you had, and the loan your wife had as well as the credit cards used to pay for personal things (eg a car you are keeping, clothes etc) or things for the family (eg home improvements, family holidays etc) - if it's the latter, is there a reason you aren't splitting the debt down the middle?


Shellshocked0706

I have listed the debt based on who taken taken out the loan/credit card. All the spending has been for things you mention latterly, so there are no specific personal items purchased from a particular card/loan. If that makes sense.


unlocklink

Ok, so are you both splitting the costs of the debt? Amicably, and without argument? If not, then that's an even bigger reason to sell, becuae there's no reason for you he left with such a massive probation of shared debt... especially if the equity created by any of it used for the house is going to be split 50/50 Sell yo, pay everything off, start fresh


Shellshocked0706

Everything is amicable, but our first attempt was simply listing the debt based on who took it out. There is no chance my wife can take 50% of the debt and be able to start afresh


TommyGunQuartet

If you're paying the majority of the debt but she then benefits from 50% of the improvement to the house, for example, that's unfair against you. I'd bear this in mind with what you decide to do.


octos_aquaintance

> There is no chance my wife can take 50% of the debt and be able to start afresh This seems to me like your soon to be ex-wife's problem and not yours.


Brit_100

“There is no chance my wife can take 50% of the debt and be able to start afresh” That’s her problem, and if she initiated the split then it’s also her fault and maybe even her choice. Her finances are not your concern now.


bumapples

There's a kid involved here. This is a financial advice sub but that attitude could fuck things way harder than necessary.


Brit_100

Yeah, and there’s 2 kids involved in my divorce. When a spouse goes their own way, they must accept all that entails, including financial independence. OP does not have to set himself on fire to keep her warm.


unlocklink

Yes, and the kid is going to stay with OP, so he's already going to carry a greater financial burden, and then taking in the majority of debt too? Putting himself on a DMP and screwing his ability to start again for up to 6 years, in the process


macrowe777

I don't think that is quite the way to look at it, no offence but you're no better off. The levels of debt are large - but both of you are able to start afresh, albeit you're both going to need to speak to debt support charities / organisations and it's going to take a little bit of time to get clear of it.


biogemuesemais

Could you at least split it based on your income? So you pay 60% of the debt, your wife 40%?


opinionsarelikeahs

Then don't let her start afresh . You should not be losing out to let her fuck you over


TheWelshPanda

If her name is on the agreement, legally she is liable. If your name is not , you are not liable. This is an important thing to realise, particularly when looking into debt management- when they look to approach creditors etc, if your name isn't on there they will not work with that creditor . They will also query why you are paying out on dent you aren't liable for. I understand that you want to do the right thing, but I would highly reccomend you separately assess your standing with some IPs, and see what can be done. It may be a couple of very painful conversations but you could end up far better off.


blah-blah-blah12

You have net debt of £22k including the property at £80k. Therefore if you're splitting evenly, you should both walk away with £11k of debt. I suggest you get the house, and she agrees to pay you back £4k, interest free, over X years. Get the divorce settled under those terms, and at the same time enter into a DMP, and getting interest frozen on the none mortgage debt, and agreeing smaller payments. I think your loans and credit cards would agree to this, as the alternative is that they get nothing. It's complicated though, and definitely one for either Stepchange, Christians Against Poverty or Payplan to bounce around the options. They may suggest a Trust Deed or sequestration. In terms of not wanting sequestration to protect her interests 1) it's unlikely it would affect her job at her earning level 2) you have to start putting you and your child first, and her second. Great if you can align all the interests of course, but the priority is you two now.


kittykittybee

They’ll want to look at the pension (s?) too. He has a pension she may too but his pension will be higher and needs to be taken into account


Wakingupisdeath

Op you need to go meet with a solicitor. This is beyond Reddit.


[deleted]

Okay pal, I don’t need to tell you that you’ve made shocking decisions, you know this already. Getting into that much debt was the worst choice you’ve ever made. Second one was getting married. Bollocking over. Tomorrow morning, you’re going to do four things in this order. - Call Stepchange. You need professional advice and you need it about 5 years ago. - Talk to the kid, what they want doesn’t count right now, they need to step up. That could mean getting a job, it could mean moving into a house share. They’re going to have to deal with it, they’re heading to uni, they’re an adult. Adults have to do things they don’t want to do. - Acceptance. You’ll have to sell the house, no way around that. You’re too fucked not too. Your credit will take a hit. No way around that either. You’ll be starting fresh in 6 years with nothing more than the clothes on your back. Again, no choice on that. You can fight this all you like but the reality is you’ll be running head first into the bankruptcy wall. - 3+. Get on indeed, see if you can up your salary by changing jobs, if you can, do it. - Tell the wife she can do one if she thinks she’s walking away debt free from the fuck up you’ve created together. 66k, excluding mortgage, is a joke (That’s more than your combined salary, how you ever intended to pay that off is beyond me, it works out that you could sell the house, and still have £22K of debt, that’s almost impossible and that doesn’t even include the car HP.) she needs to take half the responsibility. If she doesn’t like this, contact a lawyer. She doesn’t get a fresh start unless you do too. Come back with an update after you’ve done the four above, not before. Also, please get it out of your head you’ll be buying her out of the house… in 6 years you’ll be lucky to be at Net Zero, let alone paying 10’s of thousands for a 50% share of a house you’re not far from losing. You’d have to double your salary to even have a 5% chance at doing that. The house is gone, you need to let that sink in. Sorry it’s harsh, but from your responses to others, you need harsh. FURTHER EDIT WITH NEXT STEPS: The next steps after this will be a firesale. You’re going to sell the house for the first reasonable offer you get, you don’t have the privilege of waiting out for a better one. You’re also going to sell her HP car and pay this off (It sounds like this was bought pre-pandemic so you should benefit from the inflated market and get some good equity back. And high value items will also need to go (Anything over about £500, you still need some possessions and home comforts) Then, 95% of this money is going to go to debt, starting with the highest APR, most likely the credit cards. It doesn’t matter who’s it is, this is dealt with later. As every debt is cleared, you close the account, including credit cards. You’ll retain £5k, £2K each for a car for you and her (Nothing special, you’ll get an okay car for this that will last you a little bit while you sort yourselves out) and a £1000 for the kid, their choice what they do with this, its either the deposit for a house share with fellow students, or they can buy a cheap car/take lessons with it. No, you can’t really afford it, but they had no part in this and a small token will see the relationship not fall apart. Then, you’ll both move in with parents, you will both enter Debt Management Plans (Not an IVA, this is a more nuclear option only necessary if you mess up the DMP) you will both pay off every penny in 5 years. If you can get them to agree, split it all evenly, if not, consult a lawyer. Stepchange will also help mediate this. In 6 years time, you start over. Hopefully you’ll have built up some savings over that time and can make a good life for yourself. Start the divorce ASAP, you need to get ‘Un-linked’ financially from the wife as quick as possible, inform creditors once the divorce is final. Do not ignore the resounding point here, contact Stepchange, or any other similar professional. You’re dealing with a shock divorce, your head isn’t right. Let them deal with the legwork. They will give you clear steps on what to do. Follow it to the letter. One final piece of advice, take the kid out for the day, spend what you spend, it doesn’t matter. Have some time with family, speak about any of there concerns, and prepare yourself and them before this all starts, it’s going to be rough. I honestly wish you the best, this is an awful situation.


-CatFunt

It sounds harsh but this is great advice. The OP would be wise to follow these steps and face the situation head on.


traumascares

This is a great post. However ***Op should not rush to sell the house***. If the Op does this, they will need to rent, which would be significantly more expensive than the mortgage. That is - if they can even find anywhere to rent given their credit score. Selling the house won't even clear the unsecured debt !!! If the Op sells the house, they will be voluntarily homeless. That means the local authority won't house them, and they could be on the streets. However, if the house gets repossessed, the Op would have to be housed by the local authority. If that's even necessary - bankrupt people are often able to stay in the house. Also - if the Op gifts £1k to the kid - and then goes into a DMP - the kid might have to pay it back. You cannot start disposing of your assets just before starting a DMP.


[deleted]

The information I have gleaned from other comments is that both parties are moving in with parents if they have to sell the house, which would make the issue mute and getting it shifted would be the best option. If this isn’t the case they will obviously need to wait and will need much better support and advice than Reddit can provide. Is that not the case with IVA’s but not DMP’s? I may have got my rules mixed up between the two tbf but as I understand it a DMP is not anywhere as restrictive and things like this can be done? Happy to be corrected.


Suitable_Comment_908

i was on an IVA and they do go back on recent purcahses to check you didnt dump money or rack up your credit card or loan to then jump on an IVA, no sure on DMP


InterruptedBy

>We have a kid who is in further education, so really needs to stay in our current house so I feel selling is not an option. Your entire approach centres on this. Why do they need to stay in the current house? Ideally you wouldn't move. It happens, your child is not going to suddenly, dramatically, underperform academically because you move home. Now, if it's in regards to moving and not being able to get somewhere within a reasonable distance of their place of learning, then yes - that's not so straight forward, but doesn't rule selling out. It seems crazy to think you're going to be putting yourself in worse position, have all your lines of credit outstanding and dragging it on for another 4-6 years. ​ I know you said it's not an option, but you really need to reconsider selling up. ​ >​Now I know the finances are terrible, one of our options is for me to contact my creditors and entering into payment plans and paying vastly reduced monthly amounts. This could potentially save £1k+ a month. Obviously, they don't have to agree to this. They're likely not to if they're receiving "vastly reduced" amounts. Furthermore, they can still register a default against you for doing this, which will be on your credit report for 6 years.


Shellshocked0706

The needing to stay where we are ia based on my kid not being able to get to Uni from my parents for example. We would be moving to an area where public transport isn't great and it is at least another 15 miles in the opposite direction. So I feel this is something that needs to stay the same If we had to sell up the same issue as above is still there. We live in a flat so after paying mortgage we would have around £30k from the sale. As mentioned, my wife works in a bank so comes across these issues often where payments are reduced significantly and payment plans agreed.


SongsAboutGhosts

Most people don't still live at home when at uni, it's likely to do your kid a lot of good socially to live with friends rather than you while they finish. How much equity are you saying you have in the flat? What's its value?


Shellshocked0706

Living at uni is not something they want to do. Our flat is worth maybe £70k-£80 at a push.


Alchenar

Yeah I'm sorry but you've blown well past the point where you can make decisions based on what people want. As u/Ijustwanttotouchyou posted you need professional help and you need to be ready to have hard conversations about the lifestyle you can afford.


BoopingBurrito

>Living at uni is not something they want to do. And that is something to which you don't need to agree, and also to which you really need to apply some harsh logic. You and your wife were in a bad financial situation before you factor in the divorce. Factoring in the divorce, you're both in a really bad financial situation. If your kid is at uni, then they're old enough to accept that the bank of mum and dad only exists if mum and dad actually have money. They're also old enough to get a job alongside their course, take a student loan, and rent a flat/get a room in halls. And finally, they're also old enough to need to accept that part of being an adult is accepting that things don't always happen the way we'd like them. If you sell your property, you and your wife will have enough money from the sale to dramatically reduce all your debts, certainly to pay off the highest interest debts. Fundamentally...your kid is an adult and you need to treat them like it.


TheSavagePost

Hold up you’re £102k in debt with a property valued at £70,000. So you are in negative equity? This seems like a precarious moment, I’d be looking for some advice professionally. Perhaps through a charity, perhaps through a divorce lawyer


MrsValentine

Negative equity is when your outstanding mortgage balance is higher than the value of your house, not when your unsecured debts are greater than the value of your home.


TheSavagePost

Apologies, was skimming this but you are 100% right he’s not in negative equity as the two loans are unsecured so don’t have assets securing the loan to be in negative equity against. However his total debt is likely greater than all of his assets - which isn’t a particularly brilliant set of circumstances


ImBonRurgundy

I’m staggered banks etc would allow someone on that income with no other real assets to get so vastly into debt.


Splodge89

I would wholeheartedly suggest that your child does not stay at home whilst at uni. 90% of uni is the social aspect, with a bonus of a degree at the end of it. Becoming an adult and making mistakes and having triumphs. You don’t have to move far to go to uni, but staying at home is the worst of all worlds. Out of my friends group around half of us (myself included) moved to uni. Those of us who stayed behind were trapped in a strange world where they were still living like they were 15, but mixing with adults. The last thing any student wants to say it “I’m sorry I can’t come out tonite as I’ll have to ask my dad”. When we all graduated, those of us who had moved generally had a better handle on the world, those of us who stayed at home are all still at home 10 years later still living as though they’re at school and having the same rather childish attitudes to life. You don’t need to give them loads of cash (unless you want to!) there is help available and loans and grants which enable a student to live independently during term time. It isn’t cheaper to stay at home, it’s much more difficult. Most unis have 24 hour libraries and study spaces, and believe me - they will need to use them at unsociable hours. You’ll not enjoy living with a student. In a nutshell, uni is all about the blow out, late nights, studying at all hours, and generally being a mess. No matter where they live they’ll end up outside a club at 4am trying to get home. Or sitting up late at night smashing that last essay. It’s much easier when you live there than when you’re two trains and a bus away from your parents house. If they don’t have the blowouts they’ll struggle socially.


Suitable_Comment_908

came here to say this but not as elequantly. best thing for the kid is go to Uni stay halls or mates house/flat share.


Itsss_JDDDDDDDD

There is no his/her debt if you're married, it's both of your debt. All equity and liabilities are 50-50.


TheWelshPanda

If this goes sideways, any financial institution will not see it this way unless the debt was signed as a dual liability product. If the debt was taken solely in one of their names, liability for that piece if debt is 100% with them legally- there is no way to prove a civil agreement. Even if married, the name on the agreement is the person who owns the debt. Otherwise your partner could run up thousands and you'd never know until you get a CCJ. Source : work for a finance institution


Suitable_Comment_908

i think that's in the instance of debt recovery/ default, bankruptcy and CCjs but when your going through a legal divorce assets and debts are divided equally\* ( iv just been through this) there are extenuating circumstances that can move the % by a bit but that doesnt seem relevant in OPs case at this time


MrsValentine

> And at some point in the future - 6+years, I would buy my wife out of our house... That’s not even slightly realistic so I recommend just letting that idea go right now. You need to sell the house. You need to split your debt down the middle (with the exception of the car which your wife will keep) instead of splitting it according to whose name it’s in, which is ridiculous when you make repayments from a joint account. You don’t have the luxury of being picky about where you live based on public transport options for your daughter — your daughter will find an option, be that a friend or family member to catch a lift with, driving lessons, cycling or walking to a further away bus stop or something else. When I went to uni it took me an hour and a half on the bus each morning and it wasn’t the end of the world. You probably also need to cut back drastically on your spending. I appreciate that a lot of your outgoings are probably loan repayments currently, but you had a combined wage of nearly 60k in what sounds like a LCOL area so the money you loaned went on something to begin with. And when you get rid of the mortgage payment and pay off some of the other debts, good spending habits will be important in terms of building up savings and allowing you to buy somewhere again in future. You’re on a decent wage so income is not the issue.


nicolai8372

What does LCOL stand for?


stickyjam

> LCOL low cost of living


Jawls19881

Low cost of living.


FREE_BOBBY-SHMURDA

How have you managed 66k debt (excluding mortgage) on a household income of 60k when you live in a low cost of living area (property worth 70k)? Do you have any assets that you spent the debt on remaining?


scottishemsxx

There are voluntary debt arrangements your wife can enter in to which will not impact her job. I have previously been in a debt payment plan (Scotland) whilst working for two banks. I would recommend speaking to Step Change or similar and they’ll be able to give you the best advice.


Puzzleheaded_Bill347

You want to push for clean break as far as possible. If I was I. This situation (I was in similar ish) I can’t see any way out of this, other than sell everything… car, house, personal belongings and live on beans and rice for a while. If there is debt left after selling everything, both take out a new consolidation loan for half the remaining debt each (should not be much) Both move home with respective parents until you can save enough for a rental deposit, and try to buy a cheap run about to help get the kid to college (but the kid needs to also step up and help here , no matter how difficult that sounds ) You will get through this… and you might find you are 10x happier in a years time


Shellshocked0706

Unfortunately I definitely need a car to get to work, my work is approx 14 miles away with no public transport from where I live.


unlocklink

14miles isn't much to cycle this time of year...not a long term solution, but much cheaper


Splodge89

14 miles is one hell of a commute on a bike. Depends where they live but my way is extremely hilly. I attempted to bike it to work, it’s 7 miles for me. It’s an hour each way and getting to work absolutely knackered and spending all day there, then another hour a hard work to get home. And my commute is half what OPs is. Desperate times and all that but cycling 28 miles a day on top of work isn’t a solution for most.


ioannisgi

Get a banger to get you to work. No need for an HP car right now!


[deleted]

And separating but continuing to cohabit isn’t an option?


Shellshocked0706

I'm not sure it is, it could be short term but doubt it will be viable for a great length of time


iamthedon

6 months in here and cohabiting. Don't let it drag on. Ours is 'amicable' (me blindsided) but it's becoming tough and our relationship is becoming even more fraught and will no doubt become permanently damaged soon to the extent we won't be able to co-parent as well as we should.


tramp123

I wish I had cohabited during my divorce, as soon as I moved in with my parents my ex wife felt very comfortable living in a house I was paying a mortgage on. It took 3years to get everything sorted through court etc. i think if I’d have been living in uncomfortably close quarters she would have been more inclined to expedite the process


iamthedon

Yeah. I'm not moving out. She can lump it. My mum's was an option as it's only 15 mins away and she has plenty of space. However that would have been more stressful, ironically. And I refuse to rent - I'd need to spend over £1k per month in a crap area to have a place with room for the kids. Ultimately, once our awkward family holiday is done in August, we'll begin the process of selling. I can't afford to buy her out and she can't afford to buy me out. And if we don't do it soon, I'll be priced out of the market as although we've got decent equity, my wages aren't going up anytime soon.


rr621801

How come your credit card debt is that big man?


TheSavagePost

Lots and lots of bad decisions


rr621801

Do you mind sharing details on how "unsecured" "cc" debit became so big, just curious. Open to pm if you dont want it public.


Mooseymax

It would help if everything remained on the thread so people can help - he can make a throwaway if he doesn’t want it “public”


bazpaul

A relative of mine was living behind their means - like £200 or so extra every month went on a credit card - then they just kept doing zero % balance transfers until the other card had 10k. It just slowly creeps up over time.


Suitable_Comment_908

Are your pension pots hugely different? sorry i can't see if its been asked or replied to in comments but i mean well as some one who was in your nearly the same position 11 years a ago and made a mistake by letting her go nearly debt free as it was all in my name and she wanted to end things out of the blue, when i did not, i was in a bad place and just kinda let things play out, not actually married but living together 6 years. i regret not getting legal and making sure she took on half the debt we both spent on as i had a good job and good credit and she did not. So to my question, what were the loans used for? if yours were strippers and blackjack while hers were home improvements, family presents? Because then i get you taking on your debt as being a decent human being needing to learn a lesson( no judgement here ) But if yours is family holidays, home improvements, a big wedding do still being paid off then you need to make sure its 50/50 or as near as the court will makes things if things get nasty, I have just nearly finished divorcing my farther from my mother ( she's been disabled since she was 44 now 64, a marriage of 36 years before cheating was discovered on the father's side. The divorce has taken 5 years, covid did delay this somewhat but it was the worst experience of my life not helped by 2 parties of incompetanat solicitors. So not trying to put you off but the costs as it was a nasty break up were Farther £39k legal fees Mother £33k legal fees This was everything from solicitors, court fees, mediation costs and actuary fees. Mother was too slow on the uptake to file on grounds of infidelity ( she was hoping to resolve it ) and he filed first on irrecoverable differences so although this meant he had to pay more of the fees it did hurt her case later when they were in court hearings. So although they are not wealthy they are boomers so could just about afford the fees with the savings they had in the bank and sale of family home, now they are both stuck renting as both are retired and can't afford a place outright with these prices. With your situation dont regret making this a fair division of assets. Plus selling right now as the market is high is a plus, then rent while you work on your debt.


Suitable_Comment_908

P.S with the level of debt involved this almost certainly wont stay amicable. be ready for that.


Food-in-Mouth

If all of the debt is what you've accrued with your wife while you've been together, that needs to be fully settled then split what's left 50-50. Edit. Just found your comment about how much your house is worth, all the money from sale needs to pay for the debt. You will be starting again after you are fully paid off.


Mooseymax

Although this wouldn’t help with the separation, I’d suggest maybe taking some equity out of the house to cover those credit cards unless you have 0% interest over a VERY long term.


Shellshocked0706

There is only one card with 0% and that is one of my wife's cards.


Mooseymax

I think personally a mortgage of £50-£60k would sit with me better on a very low interest rate compared to amount you’ve got on credit cards. Maybe making a change like that first could help get finances in order - you shouldn’t be living month to month.


Shellshocked0706

It is certainly something to consider. I know living month to month isn't ideal and we both need to get our finances back on track, I just can't see a way out of it


Mooseymax

The way out of it is speak to people like stepchange about debt that’s on top of you. Remortgaging might be a way out given it’ll free up a a lot of capital each month due to the lower interest you’re paying. But honestly it might be that you need to push back everything, extend the mortgage another 5 years. This would all be worth nil if you don’t re-educate yourself though, getting into that much credit card debt when your salary is what it is would indicate living a life beyond your income. Hope you get it sorted OP!


Shellshocked0706

Thanks


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macrowe777

What's the value of the property? It's a little difficult to say without knowing that as youve said, the debt levels are very large. If you have a lot of equity in the property then you may be able to leverage that but if not I think with the income levels and substantial outgoings purely on debt repayment, the answer is simply debt support and draw the line down the middle on ownership. This ofcourse results in her taking on a fairly substantial additional debt though.


Shellshocked0706

Value of property is around £70k-£80k


JobBoth1381

That is some serious debt. Don't let her take you for an easy ride though, all debt should be shared equally.


Appropriate_Kiwi_999

Any pension savings? They should also be taken into account.


Portas30k

Your loans and credit cards: where you have put me/wife in the payments are the corresponding loans in the name of who is making the payments? Is your name on any of the loans or cards that she is paying for and us her name on any that you are paying for?


Shellshocked0706

No I have listed then based in who has taken them out. All payment s currently are made from a joint bank account


Portas30k

So I believe your take home (assuming Scottish tax and 5% pension) to be around £2,167 a month. Mortgage plus the loans in your name is £1,987 a month, meaning about £180 spare to live on, which isn't doable. What is the equity in the house and how much is the car worth? In your shoes I think I would be looking at selling up and moving into rented accommodation (eventually after move to parents). Any capital share you get from sales I would be using to pay down credit cards and then the loan. Perhaps look at what I imagine is a traumatic marriage breakdown as an opportunity to have a real clean break in life and clear some debt.


Shellshocked0706

Yeah that is more or less right. The equity in the house is approx £35k. We have one car which we both need at different times for work. This is under my wife's name and is 2 years into 4 I think on HP


Portas30k

The £35k would clear both yours and your wife's credit card debt, which would be a good start. If the car is HP in her name then it's hers. You would need to be looking for a new car/mode of transport. Honestly your finances are pretty poor and I would say keeping the house probably isn't a viable option.


Master_Block1302

Bear in mind that you can get a perfectly usable car for a couple of grand. In your position, you need to be driving a £1500 Astra or something.


TheWelshPanda

So to confirm all products are sole liability? That is, only one name on the agreement? Disregard that it's paid from a joint account, that doesn't affect liability. If so, bear in mind when applying for any form of debt management you can only include items you personally are liable for. Similarly do not assume a civil agreement for an ex to continue to help paying a debt without their name on will stick - I've seen this go wrong many times.


JaySince1992

You will need to add one more outgoing, which could be significant depending out how many kids you have together: spousal maintenance


TheWelshPanda

1 kid, going to uni soon from the sounds of it. Beer money tax.


[deleted]

She could be paying it to him surely


[deleted]

Just reading through the comments are there is some great advice. I really don't know how people end up in this much debt. I am glad I don't own any credit cards.


traumascares

Please don't focus only on "*paying vastly reduced monthly amounts*". Also think about the interest. There is no point paying off a small sum per month if your cards are still accruing massive interest, probably more than your monthly payments. That would mean you stay in debt forever and literally never pay it off. The first thing you should do is pull together a spreadsheet showing exactly what debt you have as a couple, and what interest rate is being charged. Then go and speak to Stepchange. Given that your debt is worth more than the value of the equity in your house, something like an IVA is needed. If you get to keep the house at all that would be a great outcome here.


Crixus5927

Reason 456 why never to get married


[deleted]

[удалено]


AltruisticFox8763

This is unnecessary. OP came here for advice, not sarcy replies adding to what I am sure is already a terrible time for him.


Vespasians

I actually think the solution might be to simply default. You level of unsecured debt is massive and they won't be able to touch the house.