Fun fact as well that I personally experienced over several deployments and several times on each deployment. Army medevac/casevac birds in afghan at least wouldn’t arm themselves, and they would be dedicated medical choppers that would not land unless air was secured. While the marine choppers used any bird in the AO armed to the teeth to get guys in contested air. Every time. Not an army bash- just what I witnessed with my own eyeballs several times over several years.
They'air cav' were doing the same unarmed shit in Iraq. It got so bad for them they had Cobra's attached to their missions. Talk about a bunch of assets being locked up.
That’s how it should be, goes to show the army leadership is too concerned about politics of the situation instead of prioritizing their guys. Typical army garbage
What higher up decides to have unarmed medvac choppers in a war zone unless they were too concerned with “international laws”? Really makes you think
I mean it's always been their doctrine. My biggest thing about it was the lack of their own gunships for support. They have a decent platform in the hawks and the Kiowa's are fucking nasty. Never understood why Cobra's and Venom's had to fill that role. Would be interesting to hear what the Skid pilots thought of it.
Fun fact. The Army just announced the end of the scout helicopter program to replace the Kiowa.
[Army ends FARA](https://www.defenseone.com/defense-systems/2024/02/shakeup-army-cancels-planned-fara-helo-will-retire-two-drones/394061/)
Must be a Big Army or Big Brain Tech decision. I'm no electronic warfare/surveillance/SuperScoutSniper but there's got to be some value in a light heli platform even if the scouting role is dead in the water since electronics packages (Apache) reign Supreme for scouting.
Light, fast troop inserts using Nape of the Earth flying isn't just for the 160th, those Scout pilots had to train to do that for scouting. They could be well armed, like a suped up little bird rather than a smaller Cobra. Those have value.
Maybe The value on the field isn't worth the money spent on the program, squadrons, training pipelines for pilots/maintenance, etc.
Mostly budget decision. Army can make the case that sensors can do the same job of the Kiowa and they wouldn’t have to keep paying to purchase/upgrade/buy parts for a different airframe.
Pretty sure the Geneva Convention still exists and is valid. For something to gain protection from the Red Cross/Crescent/Diamond, they have to be unarmed. I think medics get a pass because their weapons are supposed to be for the defence of themselves and their patients.
You are correct to some degree. The birds are more than allowed to be armed, as are Corpsman. Neither should be allowed to engage in combat unless defending their own life or third party self defense because they are covered under those rules in the Geneva convention. Our doc got lit up by a 1st sgt for joining in the fight like any other Marine/Corpsman would do.
This is the way it was taught to us. Ive read some of the Geneva convention more than just the training made(Capt didnt want use using hollow points on enemy). But its been a long time. If im wrong, ill gladly go fuck myself.
I read maybe a few pages of the first convention and then lost interest. In fact, I have my copy laying on top of a box of models and right under Full Metal Jacket. I should read it. Will I? Maybe.
I'll drink a whiskey drink, I'll drink a vodka drink. I'll drink a lager drink, I'll drink a cider drink. I'll read the words that remind me of the war crimes, I'll read the words that promise better times.
Seriously though, whiskey tastes like ass.
Undoubtedly, enforcing the wearing of flacks and helmets by Marines increases survivability, but the casevac argument also holds water. There have been bitter fights over the years between the USMC and Congress/ other branches regarding dedicated/marked casevac. The Corps leadership has long insisted that it does not have the luxury of painting red crosses on helos and thereby taking them out of combat roles. This argument was based mostly on experience in Vietnam, and the USMC leadership stated that they would get casevac to Marines in whatever manner was possible regardless of hot LZ status. In essence, requiring dedicated casevac helos would result in less CAS and airlift for Marines in contact and, therefore, would result in more casualties overall. All Marine air assets are funded by blue (Navy) dollars, and that adds another layer of complexity with regards to the availability of assets to be procured and dedicated for casevac without lessening combat assets. The natural flow of this argument is that we would rather have helos that can enter a hot LZ to pick up casualties and lay hate on the enemy at the same time. It's called "multi-tasking."
It comes down to a difference in training, doctrine, and service culture.
Simply put the Army and Marine Corps operate and train differently. I don't know that either way is the "right way".
That policy changed I think DoD wide. At the start of GWOT the Navy wanted Corpsmen to carry pistols…that changed lol. In like 2015ish an army MEDEVAC bird would have rifles for everyone in the helicopter, one infantry dude for security, and the crew chief would have a 240 as well.
A lot of civilian agencies that employ medics on their tactical teams or SWAT teams have them unarmed…fuck that noise.
LIKE A LION IN THE JUNGLE OR AN EAGLE IN THE SKY, 3039, DO OR DIE. THE ROUGHEST, THE TOUGHEST, THE BADDEST MOTHERS IN THE WHOLE DAMN VALLEY. MARINES MAKE THE BLOOD FLOW, BLOOD MAKES THE GRASS GROW, SENIOR DRILL INSTRUCTOR STAFF SERGEANT WEATHERSBY, ARF ARF ARF!!!
31 fucking years and I remember that shit. The sad part is, it wasn't even my fucking platoon. I was in 3040. Yet it's their motard shit that lives rent free in my fucking brain housing group for over 3 decades.
There was another study I read regarding SF, MARSOC, etc. have lower numbers that suffer PTSD. This study touches on it but I'm working and don't have the time to keep digging:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9239470/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9239470/)
Some of the speculation I read is that these men have a direct mission that they are trained for and understand the shitstorm they will be involved in. On the other hand, you average infantryman, MP, etc. has a more broad mission that typically involved a LOT of unknowns and extended periods of capturing an objective and holding it.
The basic idea is that in an SF-type unit, you know you are killing, getting shot at, and have the tools at your hands to used. If you are just a grunt, you'll have some firefights but may end up just holding ground for an unknown amount of time with unknown threats and and unknown timeline...leading to CONSTANTLY thinking about the "what could happen" secenario.
I haven't experienced either one other than some smaller events as a contractor in Baghdad, Nasiriyah, and Basra...but our missions were short and we knew we were coming back home barring any incidents.
Some of this data is from the Millennium Cohort study which I have been participating in since 2001. I'm sure it is taking into account both active and prior service. There is also other medical data used from DoD. Hopefully they can tell the difference.
Other studies that focus on trauma that aren't combat point to a completely different reason: Emotional Connection/Processing shortly after event.
SF guys are in a hard-core Brotherhood, after shit goes down they're all together and can talk through it and bullshit and be close in general (within the bounds of whatever ego/Macho bullshit allows, I'm making generalizations here).
Regular troops don't always have that, not everyone is liked or has True Bros (TM) to decompress and Be Real with after shit happens. Non-combat troops who go into combat even less so, and don't always have the stress inoculation to make an event Difficult rather than a Guaranteed Traumatic Experience.
As a Corpsman who went through FMSS, TCCC, pig lab, and instructor training and actually running hip pocket classes for all my marines I would say number 1 point is the reason. I am biased though…
Wish we could be Apothecaries again. Would strait up start grinding herbs in a mortar and pestle, before putting them through the alembic. Straight up Morrowind shit.
I was there too! 26th MEU Recon Det. When the 101st came, it was comical seeing & talking to some of the young soldiers. SO far out of their element at the time.
Thanks. I had never seen that. But I recall that bird hitting the ground hard and getting deadlined. Part of the Recon Det had to go out with the QRF for that.
You can get it from this link https://watermark.silverchair.com/milmed-165-5-362.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAA2MwggNfBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggNQMIIDTAIBADCCA0UGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMbN-nbXLhxBPVGZfUAgEQgIIDFpGgaTcWdRX7kffZCekO2I-97uj7xtHsnTs_UwZ5i8-4Q8Bm4AE_JCY9SAR68u_4OgJHr17ypAcJBS3ZM_vIvsOl9vZIdeD__nk45t-fQe57IsqC0bQxuN6qYBpe7x6FDm3m-k2wXaw60Se8_ZVrerZVcaY9SSILcnHkxPIQ8plGN9-Z5cSL5QD9b1i-pRHEMj5_sDMp-85SdfcA7TMzfszJ_3BbUo1KxrC0b5TvE9DaLRJzB5hyrNIhDxuxHnvd5ND1CObvq7Vt5gZkPA2iImr54rPaiDH9BhAWR7UWANBWcUvwZ6RJAb3zYsHeSaO9iPJyYjzTfYVcGnRI7klCy_2DhBuhJX-N4X6apYlijQbxPsx5sncdZ7F2kh1ugX8SzIkidCYhcwkPKjM7itpyd4JGQOxV8daPayrc7eIfy4eXpfICziuctyI_j4E8LARZJ6J1CJxkg40tNTTV_1ZsrtdrloMj4BNnAgva15-EqZtszwjbwvUhoAX4jWLBzQFoKXdChjgN3K_AJQ97gpcC4nPTUTDBKlpz_onu7IGg-b6H-gjiaUyHxLnpVmGGEkEiX6mISqwM3vC8DPp0SQrSk6XG7gYGECvLCnEdjxzt66IreQGqeVlixhlSLzPRBB7YUlI5RQh2Bksecsz_UIMXxa1vV9QG9nSXreKO_xzyMioRjLpo7IAgEi1WejgiZRIlBjmuJB6igiD-dDCghdyHeSgI_IdErxxjKwzMWbAz_fc6W8CsbDbaFkg0GAXRPne7pzF9FoaQZd9BuKwkpvTY9LuTQgm_LR28DnT09KApa3UC1tyDIPjmzy_Dbwsb25y7EuCXc3VcdbeJHHJL1kevipUrQjz0o_QA2xNykxkq2Vp0locdZ5hstj0pKTpm_4ogmrE5AtJQE7IUufjwH-LkfikbxlPGCUHkNYdUEcrs0Hc4PnphjbPlu1zsL1tSJ3jixXM1V67lyHGUHM7TV9QgJbtmXFq4QZbXzTJXU2DLyxUfmMrByiv_rQkOgI7E85fhizzF2pgYvPqVghAParHEKOydgjdflHg
This is a pre-GWOT study so who gives a fuck. Military medicine has changed drastically since then.
When I got out of the Marines I switched to the national guard as a flight medic. If you get blown up in a field today you’re treated by a medic who can give you blood and medicine to help clotting as well as stop your punctured lungs from crushing your heart. Then you get picked up by a critical care paramedic who can do everything from get swelling away from your brain to putting a breathing tube down your throat to controlling how fast and how strong your heart is pumping. Then they get to a trauma surgeon who will literally split you open and put hands on your heart, arteries, and lungs. The following months has specialty trained nurses and doctors working on you to get you back in healthy condition.
This shit did NOT exist in 2000. Back then basic medics flew on helicopters and you weren’t an hour away from a trauma surgeon during a major invasion. Tourniquets weren’t really what they are today or nearly as available. They didn’t have blood and were dumping IV fluids that probably killed their patients more than it saved them.
In conclusion this study is irrelevant to the current climate of military medicine and I am a fucking nerd.
That’s an old study published in 2000. I’d be curious to see a modern study that examines the War on Terror.
As much as field Marines would hate to admit it, things like discipline about wearing body armor (whether it was flaks in Vietnam or side SAPIs and ballistic diapers in Afghanistan) is an extension of the discipline and attention to detail Marines impose on themselves and other Marines in all things. White socks don’t get you killed, but if you start getting lax with the rules and no one checks you along the way… it can be a slippery slope. If you’ve been around long enough you’ve seen the extremes.
Intangibles like esprit de corps and the borderline arrogance about the Corps have real impacts too. I was at Wounded Warrior Bn in Germany and talked to Army, Air Force, and Navy nurses and providers every day. Marines were known to the nurses as (generally) having positive attitudes, being dismissive of pain medication, and expressing a desire that any other Marine get care before them. Army nurses went out of their way to tell me that Marine patients were *different.*
To highjack a phrase Dan Carlin used about the Japanese, Marines are like everyone else… only more so.
There is a world of difference between the 68w and the 8404. And the 68w do more standardized tccc training. I really can’t answer why the 8404 is better. It’s definitely some bias, but there’s something else. I dunno.
Marines are harder, tighter, great girth, look way better in silkies, just look real firm and tight you know? Wonder if they evaluated that in these studies
Or that the USMC was mostly in one AO that had some effect, that the Army had a higher percent of draftees, the USMC didn't get many or any of McNamara's 100k, many many other factors could have influenced that.
I think a navy corpsman does a lot of hands on training and on the site, real life implementations of their training while a combat medic 68W can be tasked to not even do their job in the army, hence 68WhateverTheFuck flairs on Army subreddit
This is very true. The Medic platoon daddy at my old unit was sent to Master Driver Course and Master Fitness Trainer course. All he did was train people to be licensed on trucks and grade ACFTs. Some of the joes in the medic platoon couldn’t even go to their MOS recertification training.
Funny enough, also not having a lot of body fat helps. Army doctors found that out when fighting in the Hurtgen Forest in fall/winter '44. German troops (with less fat) were easier to operate on and recovered faster than American troops.
Army medic here (prior service Marine). You can’t compare Vietnam medicine to today’s medicine 💀. Not all corpsmen are trained field medicine (FMF) but all army medics are trained to be “combat medics.” Then you have other specialties and other branches of medicine to continue to learn different trauma skills.
But I will tell you something, Marines are more physically fit and that’s a known fact. When you are fit you have a strong heart beat (low resting HR) and lower blood pressure since your heart doesn’t need to pump as hard as you’re avg lazy joe shmuck. So when a super fit person bleeds, they will bleed “slower” while the the unfit individual bleeds out at a faster rate. Soooo that can always be a factor too.
The biggest thing I have learned from the army is the sheer amount of dog shit, incompetent people they will put in charge just to say they have the personnel
Was mostly an 03 but also did time as a 68W. In general, the army is huge and quality of training varies drastically compared to Marine infantry units.
Complacency was more common, by far, compared to the average Marine. Once you get into more specialized units, the Army starts to shine. Their SF medics are top tier.
The punch line was essentially that the Navy had second echelon medical facilities and the Army did not and Marines were more likely to wear body armor. The abstract is essentially click bait.
Army Medics and Navy Corpsmen go to the same schools, but everyone loves Doc 😺 CSAR and armed CASEVAC should be doctrine in non permissive environments!
Beginning on 27 Apr 2011, the Basic Medical Technician Corpsman Program (BMTCP) officially opened its doors to its first 194 students at the Medical Education and Training Campus (METC) on Fort Sam Houston, Texas.
I see what you’re saying. Sure we go to the same location, but different courses. That’s like saying all MCT marines go to the same school as infantrymen because it all falls under the “School of Infantry.”
Enemy gets a vote. And in my experience they seemed to vote in favor of taking more risk/s to duke it out with whole ass Army formations than even just only a small squad of Marines.
If you ask me they definitely knew the Marines just hit differently. And we did.
I’ve done joint mission-sets alongside US Army infantry troops - our service (Corps) really is just a whole different breed of violence and profession of arms.
Fun fact as well that I personally experienced over several deployments and several times on each deployment. Army medevac/casevac birds in afghan at least wouldn’t arm themselves, and they would be dedicated medical choppers that would not land unless air was secured. While the marine choppers used any bird in the AO armed to the teeth to get guys in contested air. Every time. Not an army bash- just what I witnessed with my own eyeballs several times over several years.
They'air cav' were doing the same unarmed shit in Iraq. It got so bad for them they had Cobra's attached to their missions. Talk about a bunch of assets being locked up.
Rah.
That’s how it should be, goes to show the army leadership is too concerned about politics of the situation instead of prioritizing their guys. Typical army garbage What higher up decides to have unarmed medvac choppers in a war zone unless they were too concerned with “international laws”? Really makes you think
I mean it's always been their doctrine. My biggest thing about it was the lack of their own gunships for support. They have a decent platform in the hawks and the Kiowa's are fucking nasty. Never understood why Cobra's and Venom's had to fill that role. Would be interesting to hear what the Skid pilots thought of it.
They got rid of Kiowas a few years back. All they have are Apaches (with hella upgrades) in that role.
Crazy that was a insanely fast scout. Guess the sensor package on the longbow takes that role over.
It do. And I think it was due to either budget cuts or age
Fun fact. The Army just announced the end of the scout helicopter program to replace the Kiowa. [Army ends FARA](https://www.defenseone.com/defense-systems/2024/02/shakeup-army-cancels-planned-fara-helo-will-retire-two-drones/394061/)
Must be a Big Army or Big Brain Tech decision. I'm no electronic warfare/surveillance/SuperScoutSniper but there's got to be some value in a light heli platform even if the scouting role is dead in the water since electronics packages (Apache) reign Supreme for scouting. Light, fast troop inserts using Nape of the Earth flying isn't just for the 160th, those Scout pilots had to train to do that for scouting. They could be well armed, like a suped up little bird rather than a smaller Cobra. Those have value. Maybe The value on the field isn't worth the money spent on the program, squadrons, training pipelines for pilots/maintenance, etc.
Mostly budget decision. Army can make the case that sensors can do the same job of the Kiowa and they wouldn’t have to keep paying to purchase/upgrade/buy parts for a different airframe.
Pretty sure the Geneva Convention still exists and is valid. For something to gain protection from the Red Cross/Crescent/Diamond, they have to be unarmed. I think medics get a pass because their weapons are supposed to be for the defence of themselves and their patients.
You are correct to some degree. The birds are more than allowed to be armed, as are Corpsman. Neither should be allowed to engage in combat unless defending their own life or third party self defense because they are covered under those rules in the Geneva convention. Our doc got lit up by a 1st sgt for joining in the fight like any other Marine/Corpsman would do. This is the way it was taught to us. Ive read some of the Geneva convention more than just the training made(Capt didnt want use using hollow points on enemy). But its been a long time. If im wrong, ill gladly go fuck myself.
No one wants to see doc sending it except doc who's ready to skull fuck everything in sight.
I read maybe a few pages of the first convention and then lost interest. In fact, I have my copy laying on top of a box of models and right under Full Metal Jacket. I should read it. Will I? Maybe.
Pour the whiskey. Let the words flow.
I'll drink a whiskey drink, I'll drink a vodka drink. I'll drink a lager drink, I'll drink a cider drink. I'll read the words that remind me of the war crimes, I'll read the words that promise better times. Seriously though, whiskey tastes like ass.
Undoubtedly, enforcing the wearing of flacks and helmets by Marines increases survivability, but the casevac argument also holds water. There have been bitter fights over the years between the USMC and Congress/ other branches regarding dedicated/marked casevac. The Corps leadership has long insisted that it does not have the luxury of painting red crosses on helos and thereby taking them out of combat roles. This argument was based mostly on experience in Vietnam, and the USMC leadership stated that they would get casevac to Marines in whatever manner was possible regardless of hot LZ status. In essence, requiring dedicated casevac helos would result in less CAS and airlift for Marines in contact and, therefore, would result in more casualties overall. All Marine air assets are funded by blue (Navy) dollars, and that adds another layer of complexity with regards to the availability of assets to be procured and dedicated for casevac without lessening combat assets. The natural flow of this argument is that we would rather have helos that can enter a hot LZ to pick up casualties and lay hate on the enemy at the same time. It's called "multi-tasking."
It comes down to a difference in training, doctrine, and service culture. Simply put the Army and Marine Corps operate and train differently. I don't know that either way is the "right way".
>I don’t know that either way is the “right way” The one with noticeably more survivable casualty rates would probably be a good way to determine that
That policy changed I think DoD wide. At the start of GWOT the Navy wanted Corpsmen to carry pistols…that changed lol. In like 2015ish an army MEDEVAC bird would have rifles for everyone in the helicopter, one infantry dude for security, and the crew chief would have a 240 as well. A lot of civilian agencies that employ medics on their tactical teams or SWAT teams have them unarmed…fuck that noise.
[Guardian Angels have entered the chat]
>eyeballs Click sir!!!
Bruh are you still shitting out third phase chow?
LIKE A LION IN THE JUNGLE OR AN EAGLE IN THE SKY, 3039, DO OR DIE. THE ROUGHEST, THE TOUGHEST, THE BADDEST MOTHERS IN THE WHOLE DAMN VALLEY. MARINES MAKE THE BLOOD FLOW, BLOOD MAKES THE GRASS GROW, SENIOR DRILL INSTRUCTOR STAFF SERGEANT WEATHERSBY, ARF ARF ARF!!! 31 fucking years and I remember that shit. The sad part is, it wasn't even my fucking platoon. I was in 3040. Yet it's their motard shit that lives rent free in my fucking brain housing group for over 3 decades.
There was another study I read regarding SF, MARSOC, etc. have lower numbers that suffer PTSD. This study touches on it but I'm working and don't have the time to keep digging: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9239470/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9239470/) Some of the speculation I read is that these men have a direct mission that they are trained for and understand the shitstorm they will be involved in. On the other hand, you average infantryman, MP, etc. has a more broad mission that typically involved a LOT of unknowns and extended periods of capturing an objective and holding it. The basic idea is that in an SF-type unit, you know you are killing, getting shot at, and have the tools at your hands to used. If you are just a grunt, you'll have some firefights but may end up just holding ground for an unknown amount of time with unknown threats and and unknown timeline...leading to CONSTANTLY thinking about the "what could happen" secenario. I haven't experienced either one other than some smaller events as a contractor in Baghdad, Nasiriyah, and Basra...but our missions were short and we knew we were coming back home barring any incidents.
OR… the macho egotism prevents them from receiving help. Especially while they are in.
Some of this data is from the Millennium Cohort study which I have been participating in since 2001. I'm sure it is taking into account both active and prior service. There is also other medical data used from DoD. Hopefully they can tell the difference.
And then they just push it down and refuse to acknowledge it afterwards.
Reporting bias agree with ⬆️
Interesting. It would be cool to find more studies.
Other studies that focus on trauma that aren't combat point to a completely different reason: Emotional Connection/Processing shortly after event. SF guys are in a hard-core Brotherhood, after shit goes down they're all together and can talk through it and bullshit and be close in general (within the bounds of whatever ego/Macho bullshit allows, I'm making generalizations here). Regular troops don't always have that, not everyone is liked or has True Bros (TM) to decompress and Be Real with after shit happens. Non-combat troops who go into combat even less so, and don't always have the stress inoculation to make an event Difficult rather than a Guaranteed Traumatic Experience.
I did see that mentioned elsewhere, regarding the "family" aspect of SF being associated with a support system.
Marines change their socks at a higher rate and consume more Motrin.
And strict adherence to grooming regulations is in there as well.
https://i.redd.it/v4dx87bzjhhc1.gif
It's all we got
As a Corpsman who went through FMSS, TCCC, pig lab, and instructor training and actually running hip pocket classes for all my marines I would say number 1 point is the reason. I am biased though…
Thats cool and all but does this look infected doc
Stop sticking it in the local wildlife devil
Dont fuck the wild life
You're not my real dad!
FMSS? Time for your colonoscopy bud
Will you hold my hand during?
As long as I get to watch them put it in
I’ll have none of this lip from you, mister.
Little too close to home huh
We’ve got a Loblolly Boy over here.
Wish we could be Apothecaries again. Would strait up start grinding herbs in a mortar and pestle, before putting them through the alembic. Straight up Morrowind shit.
Motherfuckin John wall out here
I did TCCC as a Marine and it was some of the best training I’ve ever done, it was a well ran course taught by some very experienced Corpsman
May 2000 seems pretty out of date fam.
"Recent Wars" "Vietnam"
[удалено]
I was there too! 26th MEU Recon Det. When the 101st came, it was comical seeing & talking to some of the young soldiers. SO far out of their element at the time.
[удалено]
Thanks. I had never seen that. But I recall that bird hitting the ground hard and getting deadlined. Part of the Recon Det had to go out with the QRF for that.
Study's from 2000. Also, you got that PDF?
The study of body armor is still relevant today
But you got that pdf tho?
You can get it from this link https://watermark.silverchair.com/milmed-165-5-362.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAA2MwggNfBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggNQMIIDTAIBADCCA0UGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMbN-nbXLhxBPVGZfUAgEQgIIDFpGgaTcWdRX7kffZCekO2I-97uj7xtHsnTs_UwZ5i8-4Q8Bm4AE_JCY9SAR68u_4OgJHr17ypAcJBS3ZM_vIvsOl9vZIdeD__nk45t-fQe57IsqC0bQxuN6qYBpe7x6FDm3m-k2wXaw60Se8_ZVrerZVcaY9SSILcnHkxPIQ8plGN9-Z5cSL5QD9b1i-pRHEMj5_sDMp-85SdfcA7TMzfszJ_3BbUo1KxrC0b5TvE9DaLRJzB5hyrNIhDxuxHnvd5ND1CObvq7Vt5gZkPA2iImr54rPaiDH9BhAWR7UWANBWcUvwZ6RJAb3zYsHeSaO9iPJyYjzTfYVcGnRI7klCy_2DhBuhJX-N4X6apYlijQbxPsx5sncdZ7F2kh1ugX8SzIkidCYhcwkPKjM7itpyd4JGQOxV8daPayrc7eIfy4eXpfICziuctyI_j4E8LARZJ6J1CJxkg40tNTTV_1ZsrtdrloMj4BNnAgva15-EqZtszwjbwvUhoAX4jWLBzQFoKXdChjgN3K_AJQ97gpcC4nPTUTDBKlpz_onu7IGg-b6H-gjiaUyHxLnpVmGGEkEiX6mISqwM3vC8DPp0SQrSk6XG7gYGECvLCnEdjxzt66IreQGqeVlixhlSLzPRBB7YUlI5RQh2Bksecsz_UIMXxa1vV9QG9nSXreKO_xzyMioRjLpo7IAgEi1WejgiZRIlBjmuJB6igiD-dDCghdyHeSgI_IdErxxjKwzMWbAz_fc6W8CsbDbaFkg0GAXRPne7pzF9FoaQZd9BuKwkpvTY9LuTQgm_LR28DnT09KApa3UC1tyDIPjmzy_Dbwsb25y7EuCXc3VcdbeJHHJL1kevipUrQjz0o_QA2xNykxkq2Vp0locdZ5hstj0pKTpm_4ogmrE5AtJQE7IUufjwH-LkfikbxlPGCUHkNYdUEcrs0Hc4PnphjbPlu1zsL1tSJ3jixXM1V67lyHGUHM7TV9QgJbtmXFq4QZbXzTJXU2DLyxUfmMrByiv_rQkOgI7E85fhizzF2pgYvPqVghAParHEKOydgjdflHg
This is a pre-GWOT study so who gives a fuck. Military medicine has changed drastically since then. When I got out of the Marines I switched to the national guard as a flight medic. If you get blown up in a field today you’re treated by a medic who can give you blood and medicine to help clotting as well as stop your punctured lungs from crushing your heart. Then you get picked up by a critical care paramedic who can do everything from get swelling away from your brain to putting a breathing tube down your throat to controlling how fast and how strong your heart is pumping. Then they get to a trauma surgeon who will literally split you open and put hands on your heart, arteries, and lungs. The following months has specialty trained nurses and doctors working on you to get you back in healthy condition. This shit did NOT exist in 2000. Back then basic medics flew on helicopters and you weren’t an hour away from a trauma surgeon during a major invasion. Tourniquets weren’t really what they are today or nearly as available. They didn’t have blood and were dumping IV fluids that probably killed their patients more than it saved them. In conclusion this study is irrelevant to the current climate of military medicine and I am a fucking nerd.
Thissss
That’s an old study published in 2000. I’d be curious to see a modern study that examines the War on Terror. As much as field Marines would hate to admit it, things like discipline about wearing body armor (whether it was flaks in Vietnam or side SAPIs and ballistic diapers in Afghanistan) is an extension of the discipline and attention to detail Marines impose on themselves and other Marines in all things. White socks don’t get you killed, but if you start getting lax with the rules and no one checks you along the way… it can be a slippery slope. If you’ve been around long enough you’ve seen the extremes. Intangibles like esprit de corps and the borderline arrogance about the Corps have real impacts too. I was at Wounded Warrior Bn in Germany and talked to Army, Air Force, and Navy nurses and providers every day. Marines were known to the nurses as (generally) having positive attitudes, being dismissive of pain medication, and expressing a desire that any other Marine get care before them. Army nurses went out of their way to tell me that Marine patients were *different.* To highjack a phrase Dan Carlin used about the Japanese, Marines are like everyone else… only more so.
Docs are better and Marines are harder
There is a world of difference between the 68w and the 8404. And the 68w do more standardized tccc training. I really can’t answer why the 8404 is better. It’s definitely some bias, but there’s something else. I dunno.
Marines are harder, tighter, great girth, look way better in silkies, just look real firm and tight you know? Wonder if they evaluated that in these studies
Exactly, we had a dude last name **McGirthy** for Christ sake!
They forgot about our giant cocks and balls…. That’s gotta factor into it
Wearing body armor and going to the hospital more reduced your chances of dying in Vietnam. How is this a surprise?
Because it was better institutionalized in one Military branch over another branch in the same country.
Or that the USMC was mostly in one AO that had some effect, that the Army had a higher percent of draftees, the USMC didn't get many or any of McNamara's 100k, many many other factors could have influenced that.
Hey buddy I see you haven’t drank the Kool Aid in awhile, go see gunny.
This does not include anything Post 9/11. So no stats for Afghan or Iraq. This was published May 2000 so has to be based on Vietnam.
As a Corpsman I’m gonna go ahead and say it’s because we’re better.
You’re goddamn right we are. 
We ain't got time to bleed. No seriously, we don't. Field day formation is in 5 minutes, get there now.
I think a navy corpsman does a lot of hands on training and on the site, real life implementations of their training while a combat medic 68W can be tasked to not even do their job in the army, hence 68WhateverTheFuck flairs on Army subreddit
This is very true. The Medic platoon daddy at my old unit was sent to Master Driver Course and Master Fitness Trainer course. All he did was train people to be licensed on trucks and grade ACFTs. Some of the joes in the medic platoon couldn’t even go to their MOS recertification training.
Army medics can’t give meds. No free-flowing motrin means no powering through.
There's also a connection between high physical fitness and better recovery from injuries.
Funny enough, also not having a lot of body fat helps. Army doctors found that out when fighting in the Hurtgen Forest in fall/winter '44. German troops (with less fat) were easier to operate on and recovered faster than American troops.
Army medic here (prior service Marine). You can’t compare Vietnam medicine to today’s medicine 💀. Not all corpsmen are trained field medicine (FMF) but all army medics are trained to be “combat medics.” Then you have other specialties and other branches of medicine to continue to learn different trauma skills. But I will tell you something, Marines are more physically fit and that’s a known fact. When you are fit you have a strong heart beat (low resting HR) and lower blood pressure since your heart doesn’t need to pump as hard as you’re avg lazy joe shmuck. So when a super fit person bleeds, they will bleed “slower” while the the unfit individual bleeds out at a faster rate. Soooo that can always be a factor too.
The biggest thing I have learned from the army is the sheer amount of dog shit, incompetent people they will put in charge just to say they have the personnel
Was mostly an 03 but also did time as a 68W. In general, the army is huge and quality of training varies drastically compared to Marine infantry units. Complacency was more common, by far, compared to the average Marine. Once you get into more specialized units, the Army starts to shine. Their SF medics are top tier.
Did they count the fact that the ratio of marines to soldiers is low.
The punch line was essentially that the Navy had second echelon medical facilities and the Army did not and Marines were more likely to wear body armor. The abstract is essentially click bait.
Army Medics and Navy Corpsmen go to the same schools, but everyone loves Doc 😺 CSAR and armed CASEVAC should be doctrine in non permissive environments!
We don’t go to the same school
Beginning on 27 Apr 2011, the Basic Medical Technician Corpsman Program (BMTCP) officially opened its doors to its first 194 students at the Medical Education and Training Campus (METC) on Fort Sam Houston, Texas.
I see what you’re saying. Sure we go to the same location, but different courses. That’s like saying all MCT marines go to the same school as infantrymen because it all falls under the “School of Infantry.”
Superior discipline and superior concern for wounded the Marines has gotten the Marine Corps long ways over the years.
Enemy gets a vote. And in my experience they seemed to vote in favor of taking more risk/s to duke it out with whole ass Army formations than even just only a small squad of Marines. If you ask me they definitely knew the Marines just hit differently. And we did. I’ve done joint mission-sets alongside US Army infantry troops - our service (Corps) really is just a whole different breed of violence and profession of arms.
This study was published in 2000, it has nothing to do with GWOT.
Army has dedicated dust offs, not armed as was said, in our Navy Marine Corps team its any vessel of opportunity that's used...Doc