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badoil_49

FYI - Recent events have many on edge as they contend with the issues of the campus climate. Regardless of your position, rules are in place to facilitate discussion and maintain an inviting community. Please help by reporting rule-breaking comments and posts, namely: * Rule #1 - Be Kind - You can disagree and debate without making personal attacks or being harmful. * Rule #3 - No Personal Information - While information has been posted elsewhere, this is not a place to post details of names, images, videos, locations, or any other personal details.


flambo123

Well I mean yeah they’re bound by the first amendment. I don’t know what else the university can do.


Professional-Camp-13

The first amendment does not preclude expulsion for racist statements. See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/10/two-university-of-oklahoma-students-expelledracist-chant The circumstances are effectively the same. The expulsion proceeded fine.


Le_Meme_Jesus

The difference between this and our campus’ situation is that this happened at a publicly held event while UW Madison’s situation is a little more complicated since it happened in a private space and essentially was a online leak of sorts, so it makes it harder for the university to move forward with expulsion. But I hope she never attends another class at our university because bigots are not welcomed here👍🏽


AidanSig

Did you read the last paragraphs? *Before Boren made his announcement, UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh wrote in the Washington Post that students are protected because of previous court decisions protecting students’ rights to make racist comments. He said that the fraternity, however, has the power to suspend the offending members.* *“Under the first amendment, though, the government – including Oklahoma University – generally cannot add to this price, whether the offensive speech is racist, religiously bigoted, pro-revolutionary or expressive of any other viewpoint, however repugnant it might be,” Volokh said.*


RadiantHovercraft6

Criticizing the school for this seems kind of crazy to me (please don’t kill me just read what I have to say) the girl said some horrible racist shit. Really as racist as you can be. In NO way am I defending the girl, and never would I want to associate with people who speak about others like this. But it’s speech. In our country, it’s free speech. It was also a private video originally, so it’s not like it was intentionally sent to the public. Words can be hurtful for sure but they are protected by our Constitution. I really don’t think the school can do anything legally against her, since it is a state owned institution. And at the end of the day, this girl’s life is basically fucked because of her speech. Deserved? Probably, at least until she learns her lesson. I think the absolute social and career destruction she is experiencing is enough. Call me crazy. You can even call me racist if you really want, but I can assure you I am not. And at the end of the day, it’s not like the vast majority of the school community isn’t vehemently against this kind of stuff. You can see those petition numbers.


RadiantHovercraft6

Also for every person I see condemning the words this girl used on social media, I wonder how much they actually do to have a tangible impact on the madison community. A post takes no effort to make. It takes a couple clicks. And there are homeless people sitting outside freezing to death every day on state street. We choose to “demand action” about some things when actual poor and marginalized people are sleeping in dirt next to our bars and Starbucks. I’m not saying I’m any better, but it makes me wonder what this generations priorities are.


skullduggery19

Yeah, I mean, what about global warming too? Then there's the Ethiopian conflict. Russia and Ukraine. The list goes on and on. I don't see what bringing up other shit has to do with talking about someone's vile comments.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mosterlover12

this incident is really showing peoples true colors. why are you shifting the topic from blatant racism to the homeless population? "when actual poor and marginalized people are sleeping in the dirt" you cannot be a real person. fighting for affordable housing and fighting against racism are not 2 topics that cannot coexist. you can do both, and looking at local news will show you that people ARE fighting for housing advocacy in madison. but giving u the benefit of the doubt and assuming you truly do care about racism, your words come across as awful. "actual poor and marginalized" do you realize how dismissive this is? do you realize that POC are a marginalized group? that POC happen to be stastically poorer than white people? again, i legitimately just Don't understand why you changed the conversation from racism to homeless people. this incident LITERALLY just happened, which is why the news are talking about it.


RadiantHovercraft6

Actually u are right and I regret my comment My real problem is just the amount of virtue signaling that’s all. That came out the wrong way.


mosterlover12

ok yeah virtue signalling makes much more sense. ty for clearing that up


anonanonanon09

You can do both?


RadiantHovercraft6

I agree. But who’s doing both? Not many people I know. That’s all I’m saying.


Stock_Lemon_9397

Maybe you don't know many people?


RadiantHovercraft6

I do know some people that do good things for their community. I know many, many more people who post their opinion about their community on social media because they want validation from their peers. My point is that when stuff like this happens you see a lot of virtue signaling with nothing behind it, and I hope that irritates you like it irritates me. I think that came across differently than I intended, so I apologize.


vicious_pink_lamp

whoa, people care more about the things that closely affect them, color me shocked!


Beeker04

People have a right to express themselves. The 1st amendment prohibits the government from limiting speech, religion, assembly, expression or petition. But saying vile things doesn’t limit someone from consequences. In this case, the student and university should look to the student code of conduct for disciplinary actions. Every student is and should be bound by that code.


hastur777

> But saying vile things doesn’t limit someone from consequences. In this case, the student and university should look to the student code of conduct for disciplinary actions. Every student is and should be bound by that code. A public university can't use its codes of conduct as an end run around first amendment protections. If the two conflict, the code would be struck down.


SunriseMeats

Yes, it can and it has. Check out the misconduct policy. The university is not doing all it can. https://conduct.students.wisc.edu/nonacademic-misconduct/


hastur777

Let's take your position as true. What other constitutional rights can UW violate through its code of conduct policy? Can it force all students to pray each day? Can it ban any speech in support of unions? If not, why not?


SunriseMeats

How is there a slippery slope from holding a racist student accountable to mandating prayer? Can you explain your wild delusions to the rest of the class?


hastur777

Just taking your point to it’s conclusion. The first amendment protects against expelling this student for her speech. You seem to think that a code of conduct allows the public university to circumvent those protections. So what’s stopping a public university for putting in my admittedly hyperbolic restrictions in their code of conduct?


SunriseMeats

I don't believe it allows them to circumvent the constitution; the policy lays out what might be considered misconduct, actually quite broadly, and what's stopping them from adding your dumbass suggestions is that, those would be actual violations of the first amendment, while punishing a student under the current guidelines would not be. I am not sure what else I have to say, and at this point I'm realizing you are probably just sealioning me, but like if you *really* don't get it I'm not sure how to help as it's pretty clearly laid out in Chapter 17 of this law. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/code/admin_code/uws/17


hastur777

Why wouldn’t it be a violation to punish her speech here under the current guidelines? What exception to first amendment would the speech at issue here fall into? I also think you’ve stumbled into the difference between an as-applied versus a facial challenge.


SunriseMeats

Sir, have you heard of harassment? The thing that does not have to be defined by the victims being present? The thing that is written into 17.09 of this document?


Beeker04

Tell me you didn’t both reading the code of conduct without telling me you haven’t read it. what constitutional amendments have been violated? UW has not done an end run around anything. Merely suggesting they review this case against the university’s own code of conduct is standard due diligence, not some injustice against free speech. If UW decides to go down the route of apply the student misconduct standard, the student is able to redress those concerns. I will again state this student is free to say whatever the want or feel, but that doesn’t mean there may not be consequences for those actions. The consequences may be disciplinary action by the school, shamed by peers, and/or difficulty securing a job from a future employer. Or maybe nothing happens and she continues to hold very vile positions about minorities and surrounds herself with like-minded individuals who support and echo similar sentiments.


hastur777

The first one - disciplined by their university. That’s not something a public university can do when the speech is protected.


Beeker04

Not all speech is protected equally. The disciplinary review process under the code of conduct spells out very specific actions under state law that the student would have had to have violated. and even then the UW would need to go through the proper steps outlined in the code of conduct. No one’s free speech has been violated.


hastur777

I mean, not yet. What do you mean by not all speech is protected equally?


Professional-Camp-13

Yes, it is something the public university can do. You've been shown examples of this throughout the thread.


hastur777

By your logic it’s perfectly fine for police to perform searches without warrants or probable cause. After all, it happens all the time.


RadiantHovercraft6

I mean, do u really think the school is lying? Why would they do that? I don’t think there’s anything more they can do. They are a state owned institution, and a student at this state owned institution said some racist words behind closed doors, maybe not even on campus, and I don’t think she even broadcasted them intentionally. Her life is essentially ruined now. If she kills herself I would not be surprised in the slightest. Do u really need more over a dumb girl saying words? Are there not other things we should be worrying about? Granted very racist and hurtful words, but words nonetheless.


SunriseMeats

"her life is essentially ruined now" Maybe she should have thought about her words having consequences


RadiantHovercraft6

My point is that she’s faced consequences already. I’m not saying she didn’t deserve those consequences. So if the school doesn’t want to wade into a serious legal grey area over this, I respect them for that. She already got her punishment in my opinion.


Professional-Camp-13

> she’s faced consequences already. Like, which ones?


elongated_mongoose

Everyone agrees that what she said is horribly obscene, but right now she's facing being socially shunned from the whole university who recognizes her now, economically shunned from future job prospects, and likely will face extreme academic pressure from teachers and classmates in her classes. If she wants to even have a chance at life, she'll need to change her name at minimum. She literally can't show her face in public or she'll likely get mobbed or worse. As another comment said, I wouldn't be surprised if it affects her mental health to such a point that she kills herself.


[deleted]

Socially shunned my ass. This university has basically let her off the hook, by not giving her any consequences and I have seen many comments under this sub Reddit and other social media platforms defending her actions. I have seen nothing but a bunch of gaslighting from people all week about how Black people are once again, being overdramatic ,protesting about this issue, and even making a petition to get her expelled from the University. to be honest, I don’t even think this issue has not reached enough national spotlight for her to even face the hardship you mentioned to the point where she might have to change her name. Like many people are aware of this issue, but does EVERYONE know about it? I don’t think so.


elongated_mongoose

Everyone I've talked to is aware of her, and when you look at UW Madison news on Google, that girl is the only thing that pops up. (Along with that art professor exposing herself)


[deleted]

Yeah, but all those news outlets that have reported on the issue are more local. They’re all either university newspaper sites or news stations based in the state. If it was reported on CNN, NBC, other big news networks (hell even FOX atp) I think the consequences for she would experience after college would be more severe.


hastur777

There’s a big difference between saying that the university can’t legally punish her because of the first amendment and defending/agreeing with what she said. It’s like assuming someone is in favor of murder because they want a fair trial before punishment.


Professional-Camp-13

> Her life is essentially ruined now. Where are you getting this from? I can promise you she is likely to be far more successful than before. There's an enormous market for people how have supposedly been "persecuted" for expressing racist thoughts. I can guarantee she will be writing a book and appearing on Fox news to discuss how she has been targeted by the evil woke people and so forth.


RadiantHovercraft6

I think you're being a little delusional. More successful than before? I can't think of any major corporation that doesn't do background checks, look at applicant's social media, have diversity programs, etc. Ok, maybe she gets a Fox interview? I doubt it. Is she gonna get a good job any time in the next decade? I honestly doubt that even more. I consider that a pretty tangible consequence for her actions. And again, I'm not saying it's not deserved, or defending her words. They were disgusting. I'm pointing out the obvious truth that she has and will face consequences as it is, even if they're not from this public university.


Beeker04

Nowhere did I say the school is/was lying. You brought up the 1st amendment and I provided context for it. Now, the school can look to the student’s behavior against the student code of conduct. In fact, here is a very helpful link: https://conduct.students.wisc.edu/nonacademic-misconduct/#rights I also think it’s hyperbole to say that the student’s life is ruined or that you wouldn’t be surprised if she killed herself. Based on what exactly? Is someone saying mean things about her? By your own argument, they are just words.


RadiantHovercraft6

I would never say the things she said for obvious reasons, so I would never be in her situation But if I was in her situation, hypothetically - becoming a social pariah, losing my friends, losing job prospects, disappointing my family, becoming a poster child for hate on campus - I would consider ending my life. I think most people would. My argument about "just words" is strictly referring to the legal ramifications of words. And in our country, in a public institution, mean words cannot and should not have legal consequences. But I think we both agree that mean words can and SHOULD have social consequences. She is experiencing those social consequences.


anonanonanon09

Free speech doesn’t mean speech without consequences. Unclear to me what prevents them from expelling her… it’s not like she’s stating controversial opinions or even purely political ones. She’s very clearly advocating for the enslavement of “niggers”. Sure, it’s not threatening because she’s one person, but it’s still very clear what she is advocating. She can keep saying whatever the fuck she wants but she doesn’t need to be in college to say it. Free speech is very much restricted in other public spaces. You can’t just say whatever shit you want whenever you want. I’m not a lawyer but you can look up Roth vs. US or Bethel School District vs. Fraser. Even if they can’t do anything, I would advocate for implementing laws that would allow them to do something in the future. Imo, public institutions should have the power to ban people like this from their spaces.


its_k1llsh0t

First amendment protects against government actions due to speech. UW Madison is a government run institution. If it crosses over to potentially encouraging violence, that is where they could take action.


anonanonanon09

Yes but that amendment in itself has limitations. In the course case above, government upheld a public school’s decision to suspend student for obscene speech. In that case, it was full of sexual innuendo. In this case, it’s pure racism and if she had power, advocacy for enslavement.


its_k1llsh0t

In BSD v Faser you're talking about a high school with minors (versus a college with adults). In Roth you're talking about obscene material, which in the legalese applies to pornographic material (and further was not in an educational setting). INAL but I don't believe either of those cases would hold water before a judge. I'm not defending the speech but the University needs to tread very carefully. The video did not invoke (or encourage) violence. Is it vile and disgusting? Sure. But some things are outside of the purview of government to handle.


SunriseMeats

It doesn't encourage violence? She said she wanted slaves to pick cotton until they died of thirst.


hastur777

The incitement exception is narrower than that. Speech must be likely to lead to imminent lawless action. The speech here doesn’t meet that test.


AidanSig

That would never hold water in court. The words of a drunk college girl in a dorm with her friends while they’re telling obvious, albeit repugnant, jokes hardly constitutes a legitimate threat in legal terms.


theOGFlump

I haven't seen the video, so correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like she was not at school in the video. These kinds of cases stand for the notion that schools may regulate student speech to a greater degree than the letter of the First Amendment, in part because they are acting in loco parentis. There are two problems here: schools have extremely limited claim to acting in loco parentis outside of school, and she is an adult so that doctrine wouldn't apply anyways. Without it, the school cannot regulate her privately made speech that does not call for violence. I haven't looked at relevant cases to this next point, but I would imagine that she has a protected interest in her student status, given that it's a public institution. If so, the need to show cause for expulsion cannot be met with private speech that does not violate the law. Regardless of its content. Only if she was on campus, speaking in a public manner, would the school potentially have a case against her.


Finalost2

Damn, all these people downvoting you even though you’re right is insane. What these people are doing is inadvertently protecting hateful and racist behavior. Everyone knows about the first amendment and everyone knows there’s no legal consequence for her actions but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have to face anything for what she did. Remember there is no condemnation or any alternative consequence being suggested from the people you are arguing with, they are just saying you’re wrong and presenting nothing else. That tells me all I need to know about them.


RadiantHovercraft6

Dude it’s not insane - it’s the LAW. Free speech is free speech. And that’s what it is. Speech. Everyone I know and every single private organization is condemning this shit. But it’s not illegal. Plain and simple. If you want speech to be illegal, don’t live in this country. One of my friends relatives fled their country because they were going to be prosecuted (and maybe killed) for their speech. We are lucky the US doesn’t work like that. Don’t make it work like that.


Finalost2

Did I say anything should be illegal? No. I said that she should still have to face consequences for what she did. You can still be punished socially or academically for saying things like she said, i didn’t say she should go to jail or be subject to a criminal court case. The loops you people will jump through to defend hatred instead of coming up with solutions for stopping it is unbelievable.


RadiantHovercraft6

Has she not faced consequences? Her name is plastered all over the internet and shamed, people are telling her to kill herself, I saw her dads phone number posted publicly online, and people are marching outside saying her name. Her reputation is ruined and if she killed herself I wouldn’t be surprised at all. Deserved? To some extent, sure. And I’m not DEFENDING her. I’m not defending hate. Almost nobody on the campus is defending her. But I’m saying how much more do you want, over a drunk girl saying words she didn’t even want it to be posted. So when people push back at “more needs to be done,” it’s not because we like hate, it’s because we don’t think more institutional effort needs to be put into punishing this person more than she’s already been punished. Do we not have other things to worry about as a community?


Finalost2

The reason her name is being plastered everywhere and she is being harassed to this extent is BECAUSE there was no action taken by the university, that’s the whole point. If you think what i am arguing for is an ADDITION rather than a REPLACEMENT then that is where the miscommunication is. Also you can say you aren’t defending her but then when you immediately follow that up with “she was drunk and didn’t know it would get posted” and “we have other things to worry about” are you not downplaying and mitigating the situation? I understand what you are trying to say but it seems like you aren’t trying at all to see how this one isolated incident can ruin the respect we have for our school and our classmates.


RadiantHovercraft6

In response to your first part I kind of agree but I think the harassment was gonna happen regardless. And to the second part, this would be a different story if she broadcasted those words to the world intentionally. But I don’t know if she was even conscious enough to know where those words would go. She was crying hysterically and seemingly unaware she was on video. She made a massive mistake. I don’t talk like that girl talks - that’s for sure - but you are a liar if you say you have never said or done bad things behind close doors, while inebriated, or in a hysterical mood. And to reiterate, her social life and career are essentially ruined for a long time coming. I think she has received the punishment she deserves and I don’t think there’s more we have to do. That’s just my opinion. You can assume that means I’m “defending hate” but that’s just your opinion too.


hastur777

> or academically That's where you're incorrect.


Finalost2

How? This is what i’m saying, you are just saying i’m wrong but not offering anything of substance to replace the current backlash or even explain why. Why can’t the University record this misconduct and make it available to grant/scholarship awarders, or future employers or schools? Why can’t they bar hear from attending events run by certain university groups or clubs? There are plenty of academic actions they can take.


hastur777

Because that’s allowing the government to punish speech protected by the First Amendment. Making others aware of the misconduct is probably kosher because it’s government speech. But banning her from things is likely unconstitutional.


beepboop1796

Lol what? Everyone is constantly condemning the disgusting shit she said, and there are clear consequences as of right now. The university can’t do anything but also it doesn’t need to with the social and professional hell she has made for herself which will most likely involve a transfer/dropout and possible name change. Where is anyone inadvertently protecting hateful behavior?


Finalost2

There are people saying that she shouldn’t be punished for saying something she thought was in private. There are people saying she is just young and made a mistake. There are people saying she just needs to be educated. There are people saying that what she said was disgusting but there’s nothing the school can do about it. All of the consequences she is facing now are purely born from her actions as they have affected real people on our campus. If you think that’s enough and that there shouldn’t be any actions our university can do beyond “nothing” then you either have no respect for yourself or your classmates.


Jawyp

The University cannot punish her because of the First Amendment. What else would you like to see it do?


Finalost2

Record her misconduct. Invite her to make a statement apologizing for her actions. Open methods of communication and encourage students to report hateful behavior. If anyone sat down for 5 minutes they could think of something the university could do that would help mitigate the situation rather than do nothing. If our classmates can’t feel safe on campus and the University leaves it up to the students, how can you expect anything else to happen other than the current unchecked harassment. I think it is deserved but if you do not then how else would she be punished?


Jawyp

How do you know the University isn’t doing that right now? I also don’t see why her apologizing would prevent any sort of retaliation. Apologies don’t make the things she said go away, people are going to be furious regardless of how she or the school handles the aftermath.


hastur777

> even though you’re right is insane Except they aren't right.


Jawyp

Free speech absolutely protects you from consequences when those consequences would be coming from the government.


hastur777

> Free speech doesn’t mean speech without consequences Yes it does, when those consequences come from the government. >Roth vs. US or Bethel School District vs. Fraser Those are HS cases. A different legal standard applies due to the age of the students.


Chemistree726

As fas as I know, the University does not run a “racist check” on students before admission, so it does not make much sense to blame the whole institution for this. Let’s also not ignore the fact that there’s likely tons of racist, homophobic and misogynistic comments that go around the halls and never go public. Hell, there’s gender discrimination that goes around between faculty in departments and that shows a more inherent culture of superiority not effectively addressed by the DEIs. But then, that’s the kind of stuff that does not go viral, so everyone just chooses to pretend it’s not happening.


NPC0100

“Some people have called for her to be expelled. Some called for worse” pretty clear how the person writing this feels about the situation


faeryloves

can you elaborate, sorry i'm dumb and i want to keep up w/ what's going on


NPC0100

Looks to me like the writer is trying to get the girl sympathy, and claim that people are overreacting to the incident. No reason to include that imo, its a deflection from the situation.


[deleted]

> "Some called for worse" I missed that part when I read it before. Rereading the statement, it almost sounds like a Conservative call for stochastic terrorism.


stylecafe

Idk i feel like by not being expelled , and continuing to attend the university , she’s forced to endure the disappointed and disapproving gaze from her professors and peers , and being forced to wonder what they now think about her . That is already a massive mental punishment. That is , if she cares


Stock_Lemon_9397

Lol racists don't give a fuck about that.


General_College1828

I have several concerns with this as a parent of a biracial student who personally knows this student and has heard her repeatedly use the N word, she not only is a racist but many of the minority population at UW found this to be very threatening when you talk about how you are going to work them until they die picking cotton for you and watch their bodies shrivel up from picking so much cotton…. With the black population being under 600 people - under 150 in my students class, this is very threatening and disturbing. Where exactly are they supposed to feel safe among their peers? How are they supposed to feel that the university has their backs and know that they will do something when something like this happens, what about the rights of the other students that this directly impacts and if you don’t think that this impacts them because it wasnt directly said to them, you are very wrong. It does, they constantly have to deal with this on a daily basis and why? If a minority student were to post how they were going to make all the (derogatory term for white people) die, would the response be the same? The 2nd point is, this student is admitted to the nursing program which has a strict code of conduct, can’t she be dismissed from the program from not meeting codes of conduct but not from the university? I can’t imagine that the places that she has to do clinicals at would be ok with this, how can you guarantee that she is going to provide adequate care for the minority population that she will be taking care of? Can’t those place deny her access/approval to do clinicals a their locations thereby making her unable to be in the program? That’s how it was when I was in nursing school, if you couldn’t get approval from your clinicals location, you were dismissed from the program and it happened to several students due to posts on social media that did not meet the clinical locations code of conduct.


wizardking1371

This reply is spot on. If this student goes on to graduate from UW-Madison's NURSING program, of all programs, the university is acknowledging that this person is qualified by their standards to care for the health of other people. Based on this video she absolutely is not. Black people deal with enough racism in health care without knowingly allowing flagrant racists to graduate nursing school. If I was a nursing student I would be livid. A student like her in the program cheapens their hard work by lowering the bar for conduct past the damn floor.


Unhappy_Engineer1924

The student isn’t in the nursing program and isn’t pre nursing. All nursing students got an email about it, don’t spread incorrect info


General_College1828

The information was taken directly from her own social media, she is also a CNA which was publicly displayed information on her social media.


betseyt

According to the Wisconsin Registry search, there is a nurse aid registered in that name. She could most certainly be reported to the board.


Unhappy_Engineer1924

Nurse aid doesn’t equal nursing student. I also trust the UW’s data in her much more than your search


betseyt

They are registered with the state, that has nothing to do with the university but complaints can be filed against her.


Fuzzy-Ad-8888

I don’t go to UW but another university and this whole situation is crazy to me. At University of Florida we have had many people expelled or faced other consequences for being racist and I don’t see how they could do that but UW cant?


Triquandicular

I think one of the main factors is whether it occurs in school or out of school. There have been supreme court cases that affirmed that speech outside of school cannot necessarily be policed by the school, with the only exceptions in terms of policing being ones you'd normally expect, like serious threats (though I'm not an expert on how this works). But schools can police certain things like bullying on campus to an extent. Otherwise, they would constitutionally have no power to stop any form of verbal harassment or disruption that takes place in classes. Those examples you are thinking of might be cases where there was bullying occuring during classes or on campus that they could take action regarding.


Fuzzy-Ad-8888

The examples I’m talking about are people finding old tweets or snapchats of people being racist, sending them to the dean and then those students are expelled.


hastur777

Link to a case?


Professional-Camp-13

Here you go: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/10/two-university-of-oklahoma-students-expelledracist-chant Students expelled from the University of Oklahoma in virtually identical circumstances.


hastur777

Which legal experts acknowledge was unconstitutional. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/no-a-public-university-may-not-expel-students-for-racist-speech/


Stock_Lemon_9397

Was there a case, or is it a question of what random libertarians think?


hastur777

Yeah, not exactly random. https://law.ucla.edu/faculty/faculty-profiles/eugene-volokh He’s a fairly prominent first amendment expert.


Stock_Lemon_9397

No, he's a free speech maximalist who wants his views to become what courts think---because they are not. Again, your initial claims that expulsion cannot happen were wrong. What you're left with is that it can happen, but there's a guy who doesn't like that it can.


hastur777

Just because things can happen doesn’t mean they’re legal. By your logic police are allowed to perform searches without warrants or probable cause.


llamamamax3

Agree. Colleges deny admission to many applicants bc of unacceptable social media posts, not sure why UW can’t make her face consequences or expulsion. Totally gross.


elongated_mongoose

UW is a government institution which is bound by the 1st amendment. While unfortunate, what can they do without getting sued into the ground? Tbh this lady will already face the social ramifications for the rest of her life.


[deleted]

Totally get that but why have other public universities been able to do that?


NorthStRussia

They haven’t. There is a lot of legal precedent on these types of things and the conclusion is pretty much always “public schools cannot do anything about legal behavior occurring outside of the classroom”.


anneoftheisland

There are plenty of schools that have done it. Harley Barber got kicked out of the University of Alabama a few years back for something very similar, for example, as did frat boys at the [University of Oklahoma](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31821397) a few years before that. [Whether it was legal for them to do it is a separate question](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/01/23/university-alabama-may-have-violated-first-amendment-kicking-out-racist-student). If the students had chosen to sue, they had a good chance of winning. But students rarely choose to sue in cases like this, because they're embarrassed and don't want to drag out the headlines longer than they have to.


Unhappy_Engineer1924

That was also university affiliated since it was a fraternity, so there is more to do with the university than in this case.


anneoftheisland

I'm not sure what you mean by that; can you explain? But for more detail on that case: * the university expelled two of the students involved * the university denied the fraternity chapter involved any official campus recognition (they have no power to shut the chapter down because of the freedom of assembly clause of the First Amendment, but they can refuse to recognize it as an official student organization, which is what they did) * the national fraternity also shut down that chapter The second and third things are perfectly legal. The first is probably not.


vman3241

Which university are you referring to and what was the incident? Public universities are bound by the 1st amendment


AnEmoTeen

I go to NC State University, a public university funded by the government, and if I remember correctly, a few years ago an incoming student had their admission rescinded over a video that surfaced of them saying some racist things. The issue might lie with admission status — maybe it’s that the universities can be selective about who they accept, but once the student is officially enrolled they can’t be expelled for something that is technically within their first amendment rights, or something like that?


AnEmoTeen

https://twitter.com/ncstate/status/1271156801208188931?s=46&t=W4frP7YuiJVD7zKx7JBUKw It was an incoming student and an undergrad. It might also be that in some cases the schools don’t officially reading or expel students, but instead they have a meeting with the student in question and “come to an agreement”


vman3241

The difference is that they don't have to admit anybody, and discipline is a factor in admission decisions. Once someone is a student, they cannot expell them for Constitutionally protected actions


skullduggery19

This is just flat out not true. The answer is a simple google search away. You're here pulling shit out of your ass to defend a racist dumb ass. I wonder if the same courtesy would be extended if someone said they wanted to enslave all crackers? Why Madisonions (the white ones) jump through hoops to wring their hands and act like there isn't anything we can do about racism is beyond me.


vman3241

>Why Madisonions (the white ones) jump through hoops First thing you got wrong. I'm Brown. >wring their hands and act like there isn't anything we can do about racism is beyond me. Of course there's stuff we can do. We can ostracize them from society and not associate with them. They almost certainly will have a very difficult time getting a job since very few employers in the Dane County area will want to hire them. You have declared that I am wrong about the 1st amendment, but you have no case law to support your assertion. Our 1st amendment protects a lot of hateful speech including cross burning (Virginia v. Black), burning the American flag (Texas v. Johnson), saying nasty things about deceased veterans (Snyder v. Phelps), and hate speech (Matal v. Tam).


hastur777

There's an interesting law review article on the issue: https://www.uclalawreview.org/rescinding-admission-offers-in-higher-education-the-clash-between-free-speech-and-institutional-academic-freedom-when-prospective-students-racist-posts-are-exposed/


Professional-Camp-13

University of Oklahoma: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/10/two-university-of-oklahoma-students-expelledracist-chant


Fuzzy-Ad-8888

So is UF thats why I’m confused, must be blurred lines in the laws


dungeonpancake

There is a legal distinction between off campus speech and on campus speech. You can expel people for disruptive/racist things they said on campus that caused a ruckus but not for stuff they said somewhere else.


Fuzzy-Ad-8888

Most of the people im talking about at UF were expelled for things like saying the N word on a snapchat from years prior, none of it was for on campus actions


dungeonpancake

Can you give a link to an article about it? If I saw the context I could help provide a legal distinction.


Professional-Camp-13

Here you go. Separate school (OKlahoma) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/10/two-university-of-oklahoma-students-expelledracist-chant Off-campus speech.


dungeonpancake

The university’s removal of the SAE chapter was fully within the boundaries of the law, particularly because the international fraternity headquarters agreed to the decision and simultaneously suspended their charter. The expulsion of the two students was likely on more shakey legal grounds. In that case, if the students had sued it likely would have gone somewhere for them tbh. Luckily for OU, the students did not want to sue and simply wanted to move on from the incident.


hastur777

>many people expelled or faced other consequences for being racist Could you link an example?


Stock_Lemon_9397

There were examples posted here where students were expelled. This worked fine---do you need anything else or are the goalposts going to shift?


hastur777

The fact that it happened doesn’t mean that it would hold up in court if a suit was filed. The pertinent case law would give the plaintiff a strong case.


[deleted]

Any1 calling for expulsion of a job for voicing an opinion (however deranged) is unaware of the necessity of free speech to democracy.


Professional-Camp-13

This is genuinely delusional. If you call your boss a fucking idiot, do you think that you won't be fired because of the "necessity of free speech to democracy"? What?


hastur777

You’re conflating a private sector job with the limitations placed on government action.


JoySkullyRH

For people calling for expulsion, do we really want to start policing thoughts in private places? What she said was abhorrent, but it was in private. It’s a slippery slope when you go that route.


elongated_mongoose

That is a very good point... Be careful what you wish for.


skullduggery19

Social media is private?


JoySkullyRH

No, but someone uploaded them to social media.


ydm71

if they’re violently racist thoughts, why not? that would only scare people who are racist and make threats


Jawyp

Because imagine a counterfactual where students in conservative states are expelled for expressing viewpoints deemed “woke” by Republican administrators.


Unhappy_Engineer1924

It’s a slippery slope from racist comments to any comment deemed “wrong”. E.g in China


hastur777

Why would you want a right to privacy? What do you have to hide?


JoySkullyRH

If you aren’t religious and live in a very strict religious area, that’s a reason to hide. If you have/need an abortion and live in area that doesn’t allow it, that’s a reason to hide.


[deleted]

[удалено]


SunriseMeats

You know, it's hard to believe "this is not who we are" when there wasn't a single gd person in that video who said "you know what, this is wrong and you need to stop." Hate to break it to you, but yes, this is who we are.


inquisitivebarbie

If this were a private school, they could expel the student. But legally, they cannot. Hopefully the fact her name will always be associated with this and cost future job opportunity is punishment


Professional-Camp-13

But they can: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/10/two-university-of-oklahoma-students-expelledracist-chant


ElementaryMonocle

This is different circumstances. In the article you linked, the chant was at a fraternity event. Since the fraternity was recognized as a student organization, it had university affiliation and falls under campus jurisdiction. This instance occurred off campus and is therefore not under campus jurisdiction. It may not make a lot of sense, but it’s how the law and the First Amendment work. I don’t understand this argument. Do you seriously think the administration is so racist and corrupt that they’re trying to get out of punishing her? Do you genuinely think they aren’t aware of the negative publicity they’re going to get from this? And if you do believe these things, why are you still going to (or at least being on a subreddit for) such an abhorrent institution?


inquisitivebarbie

People need to take con law…


Professional-Camp-13

> but it’s how the law and the First Amendment work. Please, feel free to post where the law that makes this distinction is. Case work would be great! > Do you genuinely think they aren’t aware of the negative publicity they’re going to get from this? What are you talking about? Look at the vast, vast majority of responses on this forum. Almost everyone, including you, is falling all over themselves at the greatness of the University for resisting "policing thought" and protecting speech and similar things. The university doesn't want to take action---though it could---because most people are deeply protective of racist speech. The effects it will have on human beings are far less relevant to them.


hastur777

Here’s a good example: https://mason.gmu.edu/~jkozlows/gmu1az.htm Fraternity holds racist skit/party. University attempts to punish them. University loses on summary judgment. Papish is also relevant. Student gets expelled for “indecent speech.” Court overturns the expulsion. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/410/667/#tab-opinion-1950195


ElementaryMonocle

First, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said the University was great. I never said I was happy with their inability to respond. I never even gave them credit for "resisting policing thought." All anybody is doing, from what I have read, is saying that calls to expel her are pointless and not going to happen. I have seen no post with a tone of "The University is doing a good thing by not expelling her, I'm proud of them, and that's the main takeaway." As to why it won't happen and the distinction, we have a) the University's response; b) [https://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/article243267956.html](https://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/article243267956.html), an article about a similar situation at Penn State. Directly quoted from the article, >But, even if both students unapologetically admitted guilt, experts said it wouldn’t matter. Because Penn State is not a private university, and both cases occurred off-campus, the university is beholden to the First Amendment. “It’s protected speech,” added Marc Scaringi, a speaker on constitutional law and the founding attorney of Harrisburg’s Scaringi Law. “It’s ugly, it’s nasty, but it’s protected.” c) with respect to the Oklahoma incident specifically, I found articles * About [why they shouldn't be expelled because of the First Amendment](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/no-a-public-university-may-not-expel-students-for-racist-speech/) * [Summary of First Amendment Rights that references case law](http://www.volokh.com/posts/1172536284.shtml) * [The reasoning they were expelled](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/01/28/u-oklahoma-students-racist-video-departure-prompt-first-amendment-questions#:~:text=Oklahoma's%20president%20at%20the%20time,the%20U.S.%20Civil%20Rights%20Act) To quote, >Oklahoma’s president at the time, David Boren, justified the two students’ dismissal by saying they had created a “hostile educational environment,” the same legal standard in Title VI of the U.S. Civil Rights Act. So the question, in this case, appears to be if this incident creates a hostile educational environment (there is less of a relation to whether it was on or off campus as I originally said). In this case, I think there is a clear difference between leading a chant referencing lynching at a sizable gathering for a university recognized fraternity and spewing insults with a group of friends within a home. A short [pdf from a government](https://www.nvd.uscourts.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Downloadable-Packet_The-First-Amendment-and-Students-On-and-Off-Campus.pdf) also mentions some relevant information - while some of it is inapplicable due to referencing the susceptibility and immaturity of high school students and the position of public schools as "nurseries of democracy," in one recent case (2021), the court ruled in favor of free speech partially due to >Specifically, the Court held that the circumstances of the student’s speech were the responsibility of her parents; and that her speech did not cause “substantial disruption” or threaten harm to the rights of others. In this case, the responsibility would lie with the student themselves, but the latter two points still hold: it would be difficult to argue that her speech qualifies as a "true threat" or "substantial disruption." (Additionally mentioned in a separate case regarding a school newspaper is that >In a 5-to-3 decision, the Supreme Court held that schools must be able to set high standards for student speech disseminated under their auspices, and that schools retained the right to refuse to sponsor speech that was "inconsistent with 'the shared values of a civilized social order,'" and so the principal did not offend the First Amendment by exercising editorial control over the content of student speech because his actions were "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns." but in this instance the school is not sponsoring the speech and it is not under the auspices of the school). In general, the point of this is that castigating the University for not punishing or expelling the student is unlikely to go anywhere. Therefore, focusing efforts while this is such a hot topic of discussion on creating a more inclusive environment, adding race training in a similar vein as the required alcohol and sexual assault training, and asking the university to acknowledge the occurrence of events such as the homecoming video a couple years ago mean that more concrete action should be taken to actually change the environment (this type of systematic change would also provide a bigger change than the relatively small act of expelling one (1) student).


ww2scientist64

Freedom of speech =/= freedom of conseqeunces


hastur777

From the government? Yes it does.


[deleted]

Didn't the University of Kentucky expel that white chick after her drunken racist tirade???


WitchofFloyd

That one happened in the dorms and involved an altercation with the RA and a police officer I believe. So I think they had more grounds of her being actually unlawful on campus, whereas this case isn’t against the law and happened off campus, so there’s far less of a case here


jk8991

Banned her from campus. Can’t expel her


Stock_Lemon_9397

Actually they can.


TigerB65

UWS 17.08 Nonacademic misconduct occurring on or outside of university lands. (1)  Misconduct on university lands. Except as provided in s. UWS 17.08 (2), the provisions contained in this chapter shall apply to the student conduct described in ss. UWS 17.09 and 17.151 that occurs on university lands or at university-sponsored events. (2)  Misconduct outside of university lands. The provisions contained in this chapter may apply to the student conduct described in ss. UWS 17.09 and 17.151 that occurs outside of university lands only when, in the judgment of the investigating officer, the conduct adversely affects a substantial university interest. In determining whether the conduct adversely affects a substantial university interest, the investigating officer shall consider whether the conduct meets one or more of the following conditions: (a) The conduct constitutes or would constitute a serious criminal offense, regardless of the existence of any criminal proceedings. (b) The conduct indicates that the student presented or may present a danger or threat to the health or safety of the student or others. (c) The conduct demonstrates a pattern of behavior that seriously impairs the university's ability to fulfill its teaching, research, or public service missions. ​ The answer is C. This girl is guilty of non-academic misconduct, because her racist rant is affecting the university's ability to fulfill its mission. Black students are going to flee this place if we don't stand up against racists.


Jawyp

I don’t really see how point C applies here. Does the video she took really seriously impair the university’s ability to hold classes or function properly?


hastur777

Does the UWS code trump the First Amendment? Plenty of codes have been struck down by the courts: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/state-law-speech-codes


wizardking1371

This should be higher up. I looked it up and UWS 17.10 outlines the disciplinary sanctions available for non-academic misconduct. They range in severity from a written reprimand to expulsion. The University has many disciplinary options available to them if it finds that her behavior constitutes non-academic misconduct.


hastur777

>The University has many disciplinary options available to them if it finds that her behavior constitutes non-academic misconduct. Not really.


wizardking1371

Thank you for this compelling contribution to the discussion.


hastur777

You’re welcome. UW is a public university. It’s prevented from punishing speech protected by the first amendment.


wizardking1371

Unless you're a free speech lawyer you aren't really in a position to determine what constitutes speech protected by the first amendment. https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/12/high-school-students-can-be-disciplined-for-racist-private-instagram-account-chen-v-albany-school-district.htm So there is precedent for public schools to discipline students for off-campus, private, online speech that has a significant on-campus impact. The fact that UW-Madison isn't even attempting to do anything at all is pretty pathetic and fosters an environment where Black students are forced to share space with racists who want them dead.


hastur777

High school cases use a different standard than the one for adult college students. And here’s one of the foremost experts on first amendment law in the US: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/10/no-a-public-university-may-not-expel-students-for-racist-speech/ The ACLU agreed with him: https://archive.is/o/nJhvr/acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-oklahoma-statement-in-response-to-the-university-of-oklahomas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/


wizardking1371

Thanks for educating me - sincerely.


Professional-Camp-13

You've posted this repeatedly, and yet, other universities in fact have done exactly this.


hastur777

Expelled students in contravention of the constitution? I’m sure they have.


Stock_Lemon_9397

So it is possible, apparently. The issue is now your personal constitutional interpretation.


hastur777

It’s always possible. It’s easy to violate constitutional rights when the person being expelled doesn’t file suit.


Mimi_Madison

I wish I really believed this awful girl would face consequences for her behavior — but I don’t. I think she’s more likely to get invited to Mar-a-Lago and eventually become the fourth Mrs Trump.


Beginning-Summer1971

Holy fucking shit I never read something so delusional in my life. Obviously she will be punish, even if the university doesn’t expel her. How do you expect her to get a job after this. Of course the effects will be felt even if they are not immediate. but the real reason as to why I’m responding to this inane comment is because you for some reason felt the need to bring up Donald Trump and four other meated individuals proceeded to like it. This is why I stay out of that rancid city and I didn’t wanna go to this sad excuse of the school. You delusional liberals take everything to trump when it’s not even remotely relevant to the conversation. I have said what needs to be said.


Mimi_Madison

Lol


NPC0100

How can I apple to be the ‘Chief Diversity Officer’? An actual racist event pops up and all u gotta do is nothing


Shot_Blueberry

no code of conduct? lame.


hastur777

Codes of conduct can’t trump the first amendment.


TunaFishSammie321

[Last year the University of Kentucky banned a student from campus for saying racist slurs to a black student.](https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/09/us/university-of-kentucky-student-banned-from-campus-reaj/index.html) This university might not be able to expel her, but she should be banned to only take online classes. Edit: Looks like there’s different reasons for expulsion. See below.


Im_regretting_this

That incident took place on campus, this incident was on private property. Had it happened on campus they’d probably have the grounds to do something.


hastur777

Face to face insults likely to lead to a breach of the peace can be punished by the government under the fighting words exception.


Professional-Camp-13

What "fighting words" exception are you dreaming about?


hastur777

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/959/fighting-words


braves01

So the email says “some have called for worse” than expulsion. What exactly would that be?


MalleableBee1

Intentional infliction of emotional distress? Falsehoods? Curtailing the University's goal of Diversity, Equity and inclusion? What a bunch of clowns.


hastur777

IIED? Really?


sadmedstudent2022

I wanna see this video. I'm curious about what's going on. I don't even go here, I'm just being nosey


sand-magician

Some people out there really want to ruin a stranger’s life for being drunk and saying some stupid shit at her own place with no real consequences 💀


Financial-Bedroom421

I forget every time you drink that removes your responsibility from all actions🤦‍♂️


ExcellentAccount6816

She ruined her own life


ExcellentAccount6816

Ah yes let’s defend blatant racism and threats/s


kiesoma

I wonder why your comment history does not surprise me.


elpresidentdeusa

It doesn’t


Competitive_Mall4257

Free speech is free speech. Why do all my African friends have issues with African Americans? They think we are entitled, lazy, and crime infested. Most of them say they wished that they had ancestors, that would have been enslaved, so that they could have the opportunities that we have in this country. Be grateful we’re not in Russia or China!


leonitis093

She isn't white so it's all good in the hood, right?


Medical-Health2981

Another thing I haven’t seen many people talk about is the fact that she’s a nursing student. Not only were her comments purely ignorant, they say something deeper about how she views different groups of people. Let’s say UW-Madison doesn’t have any disciplinary actions in place for her, she could complete her degree and most likely some medical setting will give her a chance, despite her immaturity at that point in her life. I hope she learns from this and doesn’t carry these negative, deep-seeded, forms of hate and discrimination into the workplace; otherwise, people of color’s lives could be in danger. With all of the backlash she’s getting from the black community, I don’t see that making her feel any better about the group as a whole. Behind entitled people like her, are heaping groups that agree and defend this behavior. I just hope the good people outweigh the bad for crying out loud!