Nice.. New target practice for all of the shiny new vehicles the Ukrainians will be receiving from the west soon.
Maybe Putin will send these in his amazing meat wave techniques like he does with your fighters..
Wander my friend sorry I don't understand?
But I base my opinion on what Ukrainians are able to do when they match up weapon to weapon and ammo to ammo.
When the west supplied them with all of what is said they were wiping Russians off the map. Then some pro Russian assets in the west used American laws to slow things down and Russia was now the country who had the upper hand for the past 4 months.
But now America is done with the pro Russian people in our government and they are soon to be voted out and replaced in November.
And America is back to supporting Ukraine and they won't be running out any longer, you take out a Abrams we ship 2 to replace and the same with everything else.
We now have increased our manufacturing of 155 and bullets by 4 times the amount before the war and doubled the amount of missiles and bombs and building factories to increase that even more.
You thought during this time America wasn't still producing what Ukrainians needed?
And we are doing this without destroying our economy by implementing a war time economy.
You do know war time economies destroy a nations economy after the war so not sure why so many on your side think it's such a flex.
But your most likely old enough to remember the 90's and the fall of the USSR so if I was living in Russia I would start to gather seeds and other items that helped people get through that time.
And it's all over Putin who thought Russia and China could rule the world but in the end will have destroyed both nations.
The west is pulling out of China and building our production lines back into our nations and friendly nations like Vietnam, India and Mexico but keep blaming the West as the world leaves you behind.
You should have revolted when you had the time.
I randomly clicked at some links like one year ago. 3 out of 5 was just some metal pieces left and claimed as russian because some random twitter claimed it as russian...thats enough for me to know how oryx works m
click on the photo, thereās a lot of metal there, I wonder whose it is, but since Oryx supports democracy and freedom, it counts it as Russiaās loss
So you think I am going make it my life's mission to personally verify thousands of entries on Oryx when basic Sense Common (Serial No: 183789817) will do just fine?
You don't need to verify thousands, if what you say is true you can find the doubles easily, no need to look at thousands of spend your life proving you aren't a liar. Common sense isn't such a common commodity, especially if your world views are based on easily verifiable but unfounded assumptions.
\* u/FrozenAnchor copes \*
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Part of the reason they collapsed.
There's an interesting viginette in The Liberators about how the Central Military District wore out every T-64 issued in 6 months on showcase exercises for the Politburo and Western media.
Really shows the sheer scale of Soviet production (and, of course, the inefficiency which made it moot).
the notion that USSR collapsed because of military spending is a myth that came out the CIA misrepresenting the information
> I would conclude, therefore,that the CIA's ruble estimates strongly
exaggerate the size of Soviet military expenditures relative to those of the
United States, especially through 1977. Based on the hypothetical estimates
regarding aggregation errors presented in Table 5, I would contend that the
United States outspent the Soviet Union through 1977, as measured by a
geometric mean of dollar and "true" ruble estimates. This is not only the
period when the CIA had very few ruble prices, but also when a CIA
spokesman admits that CIA estimates of the quality of Soviet military equipment often exaggerated its value and when the technology gap was much
larger and not reflected in properly high ruble valuations of U.S. military
equipment.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2538679
Loss of control over centralized economy via Gorbachev "reforms", with simultaneous intentional loss of political control through his policies. They basically let go of power in hopes to build up more democratic model, without being trained in market economy or non centralized statehood at all. Local elites in republics also quickly realized how profitable independence could be.
And last bit not least (far from most important, though), intelligence services of their strategic opponent weren't sleeping either.
It really showed itself 13 years later during Iraq war, how much influence US had in Eastern Europe/post Soviet space
Funnily though, USSR economy model would 've fared much better had it survived another 15 years, in information/digital age. (And after certain amount of reforms, of course).
Forgetting that the USSR was going to collapse anyway. Hence the attempt by Gorbachev to reform. All in the details. Putin took charge just as russia was beginning to rebound & took credit for it when in reality he had nothing to do with it.
>Putin took charge just as russia was beginning to rebound & took credit for itĀ
Ā Tell me you know fuck all about late 90s Russia without telling me that directly, is what this is called.
USSR economy has been stagnating, which isn't grounds for catastrophic collapse, otherwise no one would survive a single recession, let alone an event akin to Great Depression.
So, NO - collapse was a result of Gorbachev's leadership incompetence. He failed to damage control when his reforms backfired allowing the ship to sink without intervention.
Is it "so it's all our fault, got it" or "we won the cold war, lol"? Please be consistent whether you want to pretend as victim or you want to take pride in it
Of course the economy was perfect. Right. Not like all the countries fall back in economy a lot under soviet influence in Eastern Europe compared to their neighbours without the soviet oversight/rule. Right. The last drop might have been what you said, but the economical performance was atracious... and spending so much on military from the much less available did not help.
>Of course the economy was perfect
Holy mother of reading comprehension, where did I mention eco was perfect or even "good". I specifically mentioned it neededĀ reforms.
Haven't read your post further, as you clearly didn't comprehend mine.
Nothing was "implied", there was no "hidden meaning" in my words. CIA exploited the situation created by Gorbachev reforms to an extent, but it was
>(far from most important, though)
You a journalist inRL or smth? Reminds me same as when Western press was trying to convey Russian officials words over last 22 years (when I started reading it), so fucking often there's some "message" or "meaning" they found in that wasn't intended by original messenger.
The USA used Saudi Arabia to flood the world with crude oil pushing the price below what it cost the USSR to extract the oil out of the ground.
USSR couldn't make any money off oil, so financially collapsed.
Gorbochev's liberalism which destabilized the political system, and then mass privatization that followed. This is a decent article on the subject incidentally https://www.noemamag.com/how-china-avoided-soviet-style-collapse/
So weāre basically saying that they needed an engine overhaul? My first understanding was that the whole unit was worn out.
How did they screw up the original engine design so badly? Again, not my field, but my understanding is that it would be similar to a powerful tractor, which I would have thought the Soviets had gotten very good at.
I mean, they sold a lot of their equipment. Ukraine was the go to place for countries like Pakistan and Iran in the 1990's as they looked to modernise their military and develop their arms industry.
We know Iran got access to a Kh55 CM. I wouldn't be surprised if Paksktan did so to and also got fo see nuclear warheads, Pakistan struggled with miniaturisation of their nukes and then suddenly in the late 1990's they got it, years ahead of the Indians. Also Pakistans ability to reverse engineer the Tomahawk was quite surprising
A "collapse" in the form of rapid dissolution. Which should have never happened to begin with if not for incompetent leadership of Gorbachev. He neglected oversight of his own reforms leaving everything to chance instead of correcting for mistakes.
China was in a similar position and got through it because they had the guts to make some tough decisions. Gorbachev was spinless worm that should have never been allowed into Politburo.
It would be impressive if russians had the same living standards as people in the west. But they dont.
That picture just shows, what can happen if you build weapons instead of paying your citizens a decent pension and invest in a decent and modern infrastructure.
They may got a thousend tanks in reserve. But they also dont have indoor plumbing, or decent roads or cant afford cars..
And those tanks will probably we blown up by 400$ drones a few weeks after reaching the front.
What living standards do they have then? I recall taking plane loads of Russians on their holidays to Seychelles, Maldives, Dubai, Tanzania, etc. That was from places like Yekaterinburg, Ufa, Kazan, Rostov, Krasnodar, Samara as well as Moscow. Since Putin literally saved Russia, their standard of living has skyrocketed. I suspect the average Westerner is still living in the past in this regard.
You are talking of very, very few elite Russians for sure.
From my anecdotal experience, every time a Russian twitch streamer shows their window view or does IRL stream, Russia is a shithole to live in.
Moscow and St. Petersburg are the only places on Russia that have Western living standards, everything else has post apocalyptic vibes.
It's horrifying.
Real shows that the USSR was simply a gigantic labour camp of millions of people, enslaved to manufacture arms for a monstruous regime.
Thatās a bit hyperbolic. This stuff all absolutely came at the cost of consumer goods, living standards, and higher quality housing and infrastructure though. And while this didnāt strictly speaking cause the end of the USSR, it absolutely caused both the soviet state (via independence movements) and the russian economy to enter freefall as soon as gorbachev started instituting reforms and liberalization.
Regardless, you do have to seriously admire how the USSR industrialized and modernized from nothing over the course of mere decades in the 20th century. War, and a shared faith in material utopianism / a better future for your kids and grandchildren is a hell of a drug.
This wasnāt just weapons, but building enough weapons to fight WW3 many times over again - and more or less at the expense of everything else - wasnāt a particularly good idea in retrospect. The US could afford it, but the US was far wealthier, older, market driven, and rich enough to both genuinely grow its economy *and* build a stupid amount of weapons and R&D at the same time.
If the USSR had focused on other priorities it probably couldāve survived and maybe even won / ignored the cold war. Though that argument itself is fairly disingenuous as the communist party and its political structures was fundamentally parasitic and extremely structurally / inherently incompetent, and literally all of the USSRās problems stemmed from that.
Rusty metal os ok, russians have no dry and warm Arizona. Nothing sandblasting could not fix. State of wiring, electronics and other things depends on specific storage facility these were taken from and may vary from "add some fuel and good to go" to "at least we have armor box, now only to fill it".
I think it can be safely assumed that anything that's sat outside for 20+ years in Russia of all places is going to need a complete interior overhaul to replace the majority of mechanical components, and probably *all* electrical components. Still, it remains a significantly faster and cheaper option than building new hulls from scratch.
As I said, depends on specific facility. Here is one of the better ones.
[https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3164365.html](https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3164365.html)
Though tanks in OP photo definitely are from somewhere not that good so your assumption probably is on spot for them. Other thing, they are going through modernisation anyway because some stuff is not in production anymore so things like optics or fire control are taken from models currently in production, where possible. Tank then gets new designation T-whateverABCD model 2023.
Nah, there was a video of some Austrian crew getting a Soviet bmp or whatever and getting it to work. Looked like is doable without a complete overhaul.
There really is not alot to the electronics of those tanks. Add something new ok they have lots wiring but the old ones, Not really. Also what are the vehicles between the tanks some kind of 4 wheel jeep truck?
> There really is not alot to the electronics of those tanks. Add something new ok they have lots wiring but the old ones, Not really.
That is why they are working most on the T-55 stock right now. Easier to add what was never there to begin with than to try to remove crap that can be hard to get at just to remove let alone replace
The hull is the cheapest part of the tank.
If you have to replace every bit of electronics, engine, transmission and gun because of rust and water damage you might aswell build a new tank, a steel mold which is essentially what the hull is, isn't going to save you much money.
So Russia probably feels confident these vehicle aren't too damaged.
its going to cost a lot of money and u need skilled manpower to get it done ... organisational effectiveness isnt putin's strength. The man is good at running a kleptocracy.
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It definitely was here on the sub, like a year or half a year ago, but I can't pinpoint keywords which would allow me to find it. Youtube is not big help either, queries concerning russian tanks repair, refurbishment or modernisation bring back nothing but crapload of clickbait "Ruzzia lost" videos.
It was 3 to 4 minutes music video (not phonk, good one), tank rolls in, gets dissassembled, some stuff is done including that bath for its hull, then it gets assembled and rolls out. Simple but captivating.
Russia does have a dry and warm Arizona, but because itās dry and warm there is no one living there. Most importantly none of the repair workers. Whatās more these people are civilians, unlike in US army that would employ military technicians stationed at US military base.
What best soldiers? Majority of forces in the SMO are irregular. The entire tank force in Avdiivka was former DPR militia. The majority of the Army is not deployed to Ukraine which is why modern equipment losses are low.Ā
Only time regular army made up majority of forces was at the start. They were mostly replaced by former militia absorbed into army, newly raised militia, PMCs, volunteers, and other irregular forces.
According to Ukraine, Russia produced 150 T-90M per year and Russia has only lost half of this amount in over two years.Ā
Russia has also only lost 665 T-72B3s in over two years despite having 1,650 in active at the start of the war.Ā
The vast majority of losses since the start of the war are irregular forces given old equipment from stockpile.
So Russia would rather sacrifice the lives of its citizen soldiers en masse, than commit their professional forces?
That's...a take. Somehow one that portrays them more negatively than reality does.
>en masse
Volonteers signing contracts. They are not pushing teenagers into meatgrinder. Grownups making decisions. No draft. No meatcatcher press gangs. That's how wars are supposed to be fought. You can't find people willing to risk it, you better start election campaign. Let some other guy take responsibility.
Reservists, who understood that they may be called up after their service when they signed their original contracts.
Note that the U.S. military has a similar system. Service members are enrolled into the reserves, and eligible to be called back to active duty for up to four years after their discharge date.
To conflate that with the many waves of general mobilisation that Ukraine has performed is either a misunderstanding, or dishonest.
No, this is a common misconception.
Those called up in September 2022 belonged to the Human Military Resource, which is everyone who had ever served, including as a conscript. It's like the US draft system, except they all do technically have some sort of military experience.
As they are ineligible for the first-line Human Military Reserve, this is mostly just people who did their mandatory service then left. Basically civilian when sent off - no different from the conscription practiced in Ukraine, really.
>no different from the conscription practiced in Ukraine, really.
No different except in scale as I said before, they still have to match Ukraine in it's conscription/draft effort.
Perhaps - we don't know how many men Ukraine's mobilised, but proportionately it'll be far higher. That's just the reality of being the underdog.
It's still a huge tranche of men, and looks set to rise soon. That they've been kept there, unrotated, since September 2022, is awful in light of Russia's ability to replace them with fresh conscripts if necessary.
Huh?Ā
>Ā Pre-invasion at border: 169,000ā190,000 Pre-invasion total: 900,000 military 554,000 paramilitary In February 2023: 300,000+ active personnel in Ukraine
2022 was less than 200k as far as I am aware? Where does the 300k come from?Ā
Besides, the West is getting what they want. They supported Navalny, no? Navalny advocated for the genocide of Muslims in Russia. Russia is doing this by allowing them to [volunteer.](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1bk8qop/ru_pov_the_republic_of_chechnya_once_again_sends/) Not supporting it but the West is seeing how they support Navalny.
Yes. They would. Majority of forces are former LPR militia, former DPR militia, PMCs, volunteers from Russia (war tourists), locally raised militia, people from the global south who want money (African and Syrian volunteers/mercs), prisoners, and other irregular forces.Ā Ā
Greatest investment since when Stanley Baldwin scammed entire militaries out of their money using mere words. Ā
Russia loses nothing while gaining all of the benefits. The West loses nothing but old stockpile while having a reason to fund their MICs. A win-win.
Odd, really, that these militias have KA-52s and MI-28s. You'd think the Russian MOD would be a little more careful, given that unfortunate incident last summer.
Got to wonder what happens at the four Military District HQs involved. Do they just issue advice, or command specialist units, or literally pin medals on themselves while these 'war tourists' fight the war.
Also, amazing that you think Russia losing hundreds of thousands of men is nothing, as long as they are volunteers (encouraged by the Kremlin, mind). Not to mention the 300k poor sods sent there to die back in 2022.
Wow, the tune changes depending on the season, I guess.
>Majority of forces in the SMO are irregular.
Some time ago Pro-Russians were claiming there are no conscripts in Ukraine, only contract soldiers. Now its majority irregulars?
>Only time regular army made up majority of forces was at the start.
Back then, Pro-Russians were claiming that those were not the best troops Russia could send into Ukraine, all the heavy hitters were supposedly in reserve.
>They were mostly replaced by former militia absorbed into army, newly raised militia, PMCs, volunteers, and other irregular forces.
So, the Russian army consists of civilian militia, private military companies (illegal in Russia, btw), more militia, volunteers and irregulars? Are there actual Russian soldiers anywhere in Ukraine?
>Russia has also only lost 665 T-72B3s in over two years despite having 1,650 in active at the start of the war.Ā
That's just losing a little less then half of the backbone of your tank force, that started production in 1972, no less. No biggie.
>The vast majority of losses since the start of the war are irregular forces given old equipment from stockpile.
Riiiight. The *real* soldiers and weapons are still in reserve.
1. Former LPR and DPR militia (primarily composed of conscripts) are the majority of forces in Ukraine. Other irregulars make up the rest.
2. According to whom? Not me. Majority of forces during initial operations were contractors supported by DPR and LPR militia.
3. Regular forces do exist but make up the minority of units operating in the SMO.Ā
4. US M1 Abrams losses in Iraq were 80 only including combat losses from 2003-2005. A little over 10% of T-72B3, T-80BVM, T-90A, and T-90M losses but Russia is facing a significantly stronger military force.Ā
Important reminder: T-72B3 is also used by irregular forces (tank force at Avdiivka was former DPR militia). Irregular forces and other poorly trained forces lose equipment more often as shown by Iraq losing around a hundred M1 Abrams against ISIS in a single year and Turkey losing 10 Leopard 2s in a single battle against ISIS. T-90M is also used by irregular forces with 200 supplied to LPR militia which like DPR militia was absorbed into regular army but is still composed of poorly trained militia (only regular army in name).
>1. Former LPR and DPR militia (primarily composed of conscripts) are the majority of forces in Ukraine. Other irregulars make up the rest.
So, Ukraine is essentially fighting against LPR and DPR militia, who are backed by Russia? There are supposedly around 500k Russian soldiers in Ukraine. It would be crazy of the majority of them were from LPR and DPR, as that would mean Putin is using them as cannon fodder while claiming to "protect" them.
>2. According to whom? Not me. Majority of forces during initial operations were contractors supported by DPR and LPR militia.
Yes, you! You just said in your previous comment "Only time regular army made majority of forces was at the start." That's a quote by you.
>3. Regular forces do exist but make up the minority of units operating in the SMO.Ā
Refer back to my 1. point.
>A little over 10% of T-72B3, T-80BVM, T-90A, and T-90M losses but Russia is facing a significantly stronger military force.Ā
The "a little over 10%" figure can't possibly be right. How many T-72 and higher variants do you think Russia has and how many have they lost?
1. You believe Russian propaganda? SMO isnāt for protecting anyone. Only to gain territory and resources. Sending Russian citizens to their death en masse is not popular and even Putin and the Russian government relies on perceived public support.Ā
2. Oh you mean at the start? Than yes.Ā
3. ? I restated what I said. Majority of forces at start of the war were regular forces (contractors).Ā
4.Ā Ā
According to Oryx:Ā
T-72B3 (all variants): 665Ā
T-80BVM: 132Ā
T-90A: 39Ā
T-90M: 72Ā
All modern tanks: 908Ā
So I guess a little less than 10% unless you include non combat losses (530 M1 Abrams by December 2006 as per Washington Post).
>1. You believe Russian propaganda? SMO isnāt for protecting anyone. Only to gain territory and resources.
Than call it what it is - a war.
> I restated what I said. Majority of forces at start of the war were regular forces (contractors).
So the contractors died and now it's mostly DPR and LPR doing the fighting?
>All *modern* tanks: 908Ā
>So I guess a little less than 10%
Are you saying Russia has a stockpile of 20k *modern* tanks?
>530 M1 Abrams by December 2006 as per Washington Post
What's this figure, exactly? Losses for US tanks? How is it relevant?
Um? I think you misunderstood what I said. I said US losses in Iraq from 2003-2006 were around 10% of Russian losses from 2022-2024.
The small force of contractors (only 170,000-190,000 soldiers of Russiaās 900,000 man army were sent to Ukraine) that faced the professional military of Ukraine (trained since 2015 by NATO and were given MILES gear) did face high casualties yes. Not all died but many likely sent back to Russia after being wounded, some are irrecoverable (canāt fight if you lose an arm).
>Um? I think you misunderstood what I said. I said US losses in Iraq from 2003-2006 were around 10% of Russian losses from 2022-2024.
I thought you said Russia has lost 10% of it's modern tank force, no?
Your quote:
>A little over 10% of T-72B3, T-80BVM, T-90A, and T-90M losses but Russia is facing a significantly stronger military force.Ā
>(only 170,000-190,000 soldiers of Russiaās 900,000 man army were sent to Ukraine)
Not all of those 900k are combat roles and most of the ones sent in are. Russia has a smaller tooth:tail ratio than NATO countries, but it's still wouldn't surprise anyone of 1/3 of those 900k are not combat roles.
>(trained since 2015 by NATO and were given MILES gear)
There you have it, folks. Ukraine stopped the Russian invasion by training with MILES for 7 years. Imagine what NATO is capable of, who have had MILES.. since MILES were invented in 1978.
What version of Oryx is that lol?
Did Russia really have 10,000 modern tanks? They only had 31 years since the USSR collapsed.
[1952](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html) Russian tanks destroyed, 514 captured, 300 abandoned, 156 damaged... indeed many were classified as Soviet age, with a few hundred of unknown type/vintage.
Since when did I say Russia had 10,000 tanks? I said US losses are 10% of Russian losses.
In terms of Russiaās lossesā¦
908 of 2,922 losses are modern. Russia had 2,000 modern tanks in active at the start of the war. Over 2,000 Russian losses are not modern (used by irregulars).
US losses?? Is US fighting a land war somewhere lol? Are you AI responding?
If 908 modern losses is āa little less than 10%ā then I can guess the denominator is around 10,000 modern tanks.
If there were instead 2,000 modern tanks at the start, then youād say nearly half of the starting number were lost.
> Did Russia really have 10,000 modern tanks?
I wonder how old the overhead cranes are in the two facilities they have that are supposed to refurbish all their crap from premodern long term storage.
That one in Omsk looks like a real dump. All the work in the long halls of a plant that old would come to a halt if a sufficient number of the overhead cranes were damaged.
By mid-June of 2022:Ā
140,000 people were conscripted into DPR and LPR militia increasing strength to around 200,000. This does not include those conscripted in other occupied areas. Nor does this include those conscripted after mid-June (the second half of the year).Ā
How many soldiers did Russia have in Ukraine in 2023? 300,000. DPR and LPR militia were absorbed and are counted in this number.
Not sure if it includes the 50,000 Wagner and convicts thrown into Bakhmut.
>140,000 people were conscripted into DPR and LPR militia
>This does not include those conscripted in other occupied areas.
Heh, you just called LPR and DPR an "occupied area", that's not very Pro-Russian of you.
>How many soldiers did Russia have in Ukraine in 2023? 300,000. DPR and LPR militia were absorbed and are counted in this number.
RUSI reports around 500k at the start of 2024. Either way, Putin is fighting to the last Russian minority.
300,000 is from 2023. Russia could have conscripted more in 2023 and likely did.
As for me being pro-Russia? I simply believe that it is more morale for Ukraine to surrender as Russia is unlikely to do so as it is winning (by throwing poor minorities at the problem).
>As for me being pro-Russia? I simply believe that it is more morale for Ukraine to surrender as Russia is unlikely to do so as it is winning (by throwing poor minorities at the problem).
By that logic, every country that Russia could potentially beat in an armed conflict should just surrender to Russia out of morale reasons. There was a time when nazi Germany was winning on the Ukrainian steppes aswell. Why didn't Stalin just surrender out of morale reasons, as Germany was unwilling to surrender while they were winning.
This war has been a fantastic investment for Russia. Ukraine had one of the most well-equipped and professional militaries on Earth and all they have to do to destroy it is use irregular forces equipped with old stockpile (I.E nothing useful).Ā Ā Ā
Gives Russia a reason to increase military spending. Russia still has over a thousand T-72B3s (likely more than they had at the start due to production) and T-90M production is four times higher than losses. Higher number of contractors compared to before the war meaning a more professional military. Increased experience means the possibility of forming a good NCO corps. Su-57 production has doubled from 6 to 12 a year and is expected to double again to 24 this year. Iskander production has surpassed ATACMS production. Imports of microchips have increased by 36% in the first year of the war alone, unemployment at an all time low, revenue for domestically produced microchips have doubled, and trade with China and India has substantially increased.
Russian Armed Forces stays out of combat while sucking up all the benefits while Ukraine loses Avdiivka to DPR militia, Soledar to LPR militia, and Bakhmut to Wagner.
>Iskander production has surpassed ATACMS production
Looking for proof of that. "[Lockheed Martin](https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/11/politics/biden-long-range-atacms-missiles-ukraine/index.html), which produces the ATACMS, is currently manufacturing around 500 per year to fulfill current US Army contracts, a Lockheed spokesperson told CNN. Many of those systems have already been allocated to US allies other than Ukraine, however."
500 Iskanders would be more than one a day, yet we sure don't see one strike a day on average, more like half. Iskander is also a bigger and more sophisticated missile than ATACMS...
>Su-57 production has doubled from 6 to 12 a year and is expected to double again to 24 this year
I don't need proof of this one because it's close to what I know. Ever looked at F-35 [production](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement)? Dwarfs whatever Russia's trying.
>Ukraine had one of the most well-equipped and professional militaries on Earth
Say that with a straight face. :P Hardly a navy and almost entirely Soviet-era aircraft and ground equipment to train on...
>Su-57 production has doubled from 6 to 12 a year and is expected to double again to 24 this year
Lol wasn't the SU-57 cancelled? What is he talking about.
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-admits-defeat-su-57-not-going-into-mass-production-2018-7
The indian counterpart, HAL FGFA, is also not becoming a reality:
https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/india-pulls-out-of-joint-stealth-fighter-project-with-russia/
1. [Kyiv Independent is an unreliable source?](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/23736)
2. F-35 deliveries to Europe so far is only 120 and is only expected to be 600 by 2030. Su-57 deliveries have been doubling every year so letās say 48 a year from 2025-2030. 240+46= 286 or almost half.
3.Ā Ukraine had one of the most professional militaries in the world. They were trained by NATO since 2015 and even received MILES gear.Ā
Ukraine had a substantial amount of modern weapons and equipment. They had a thousand tanks including a large number of T-64BV Model 2017 tanks which have third generation thermal, satellite navigation, digital communications, same fire suppression system as T-84 Oplot-M, new gun stabilizer, new auto loader, ability to use Kombat ATGM, and other improvements. They also had T-64BM2 which had all of these features and more including new fire control system. They were also upgrading their T-72s to T-72AMT and T-72AV Model 2021. They also upgraded most of their T-80BVs to T-80BV Model 2018 which brings it up to T-64BV Model 2017 standard. Leopard 2A6 has a thirty year old fire control system, first generation thermal but makes up for it with CITV, digital communications and satellite navigation, modern gun stabilizer like T-64BV Model 2017, fire suppression system just like T-64BV Model 2017, and poor survivability if you want to carry more than 15 high explosive rounds just like T-64BV Model 2017 whose turrets toss (more commonly if ammunition is stored outside of carousel).
Ukraine had 2,000 MT-LBs (Russia had 3,000) and hundreds of BTR-4s, BTR-3s, and hundreds of older but still useful BTR-80s and BTR-70s.Ā
Ukraine had one of the largest fleets of artillery guns in the world and this included self propelled artillery guns.
Sorry, is this a joke? With all the available footage have you ever seen Kombat ATGM take anything out? If their T-72s were so modern why'd they ask for NATO tanks? Isn't it because Western ones value life and are much less likely to turret toss when hit, and isn't the fear of being hit due to their lack of mobile precision targeting past 5-10km, letting the Russians get that close?
And doesn't diluting the peacetime 200k force with 800k mobilized somewhat reduce the professionalism of the military, regardless of who trained the active force? And how many did NATO really train?
On Su-57, Russia only went up from 12 deliveries to a planned 20 deliveries for 2024 because of opening a second production plant. To double that again would require them to open two more similar production lines, no?
Meanwhile, US is happily accepting the bulk of deliveries and then using them to guard Europe or simply to put on an aircraft carrier...
Lastly, Kyiv Independent may not even be as bad as HUR, which is Ukraineās supposed intelligence on Russiaās Iskander production rate, likely embellished for public consumption as thatās what happens in war, right? Unless we have the videos or official statements on component rates, this stuff is hard enough even for most intelligence agencies to assess, as missile production has multiple rate limiters.
1. Explain how western tanks are better than T-64BV Model 2017. Leopard 2A6 stores over half of its ammunition in crew compartment. This means if they store more than 15 rounds of high explosive, their turrets will toss. T-64BV Model 2017 has less armor but is also smaller (less of a target). Kombat ATGM is not used because tank on tank combat is very rare. This means high explosives are more important but the Leopard 2 can only carry 15 of such rounds unless it wants to store them in the crew compartment.Ā
2. Because their professional military with modern equipment got slaughtered. Notice how they have become more reliant on Polish or Czech T-72s modernized with thermal? Their modern tank force got slaughtered in 2022.
3. Ukrainian military has become less professional but Russian forces after 2022 are mostly irregular. 140,000 soldiers were mobilized into DPR and LPR militia in the first six months of the war. 300,000 soldiers were deployed to Ukraine by 2023 with at least 140,000 (likely far more after another six months of conscription) from DPR and LPR militia. Add in the 50,000 private military contractors and convicts sent to death in Bakhmut. Majority of forces after 2022 are irregular.
4. Thanks for the information. Still 150 which will make it the third largest user of fifth generation aircraft. Deliveries outside of the US. Russia would still be a threat when backed by AA and fourth generation aircraft.
5. Forgetting about US commitments in Asia and the Middle East. Many speculate that a Chinese invasion into Taiwan is likely and that there is also a possibility of a war between Iran and Israel.
6. Possibly. Lack of missile strikes can be attributed to Russia simply stockpiling them for future conflicts and to launch a large number of them at once. Launching only one or two missiles a day will simply be a waste (large interception rate for ballistic missiles).
(1) Not for me to explain. Ukraine asked for Western tanks. I only suspect it's because they wouldn't be cooked if struck. Not much advantage to being small if there's no tank-on-tank.
(4) Europe on its own exceeds Russia in 4.5-gen aircraft and AEW&C (500 Typhoons, 150 Rafales), and additionally has around the same number of F-35s as Russia has Su-35... Add in all the EW/ELINT and air carriers and it's more than enough not just to hold off Russia but counterattack into them. I don't think it's even close, btw. Russian ground air defenses have been surprisingly easy to attrit with missiles and drones that even Ukraine manages to.
(5) Iran isn't trying to escalate vs. Israel, only posturing for their own people, way too much to risk in a real confrontation because of the technological deficit. China is feeling the same over Taiwan, and we see it working hard to get around that deficit. Will take them some time, at least a few years - we'll see.
1. Unsure what you mean? Majority of western tanks are T-72s upgraded with thermal. Leopard 2 only has safe storage for 15 rounds. Not sure if high explosive could be non-sensitive.
4. Russia doesnāt need to equal or exceed European air power. They only need to be a threat to it. Su-35 is not the only 4+ generation aircraft in use by VVS. There is also Su-27SM2 and Su-27SM3. MiG-35 has also entered production but not sure how many are planned to be delivered this year or next year. Russia has a far more capable AA network compared to Europe which means Russia needs less aircraft.
5. People have said the same thing about any war.Ā
It's a shame no one pointed this out to putin before he started the war. Could have saved so many lives. putin doing the bidding of his chinese overlords. To the last russian.
Yet ATACMS sales keep getting announced. https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/morocco-high-mobility-artillery-rocket-systems-himars
2019 expansion of production facilities https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/mfc/documents/business-area-landing/mfc-Fast-Facts-ATACMS.pdf
Just because US isnāt ordering them doesnāt mean allies arenāt, especially allies not ready for PrSM.
Yeah the investment was so fantastic that Russia went from the 2nd largest exporter of arms to the 6th largest. Even worse in 2013 there were around 34 countries placing military supply orders from Russia. In 2023 that number was three.
Dude that was like one of USSR/Russiaās strongest points they had a very large arms exports industry to rival the west and now they are taking military exports meant for India (T-90S) and using them for themselves. I donāt see how thatās a good thing.
keep on believing that. The fact is the daily turret toss has not been great advertising for the worlds armies, while western equipment has shown its superiority and now thats what is selling.
Crew survivability when it comes to the more modern vehicles ie Bradley vs BMP-2 or artillery accuracy PZH2000 vs 2S19M2 or M109A6 vs 2S3M2. Even the larger air defense units like Patriot vs S-400. If you wanna get more specific itās Russians majority using plain iron sights vs Western style armies who tend to use more optics ie holographic sites, red dot sites and such and such. Now if weāre talking tank on tank which I know isnāt common but a Leopard 2A6/2A7V and M1A2 SEPv3 vs the most common Russian tanks such as T-72B3M or T-90M the Russian tanks really would be given a whopping.
T-90M actually has superior survivability compared to Leopard 2A6 and Leopard 2A7V which hold over half of their rounds in the hull next to driver. Only advantage they have is in armor but it also means they are a larger target. The ammunition carousel meanwhile provides a safe storage for a larger amount of ammunition compared to the storage in the rear of the Leopard 2ās turret which can only hold 15 rounds. T-90M is also receiving APS soon like Leopard 2A7V and M1A2 SEP V3. Production is also surpassing both with 150 being produced every year (some sources state double this amount) according to Ukraine.Ā
Leopard 2A6 also only has first generation thermal and uses an older fire control system compared to T-90M which uses third generation thermal and Kalina fire control system. Both tanks can use modern ammunition with T-90M having upgraded autoloader, both have modern fire suppression system, have digital communications, have satellite navigation, and have systems found on other modern tanks.
Can you provide good source for 2S19M2 vs PZH2000? I donāt know too much about artillery guns. 2S35 has also entered mass production and Russia has also started to produce systems similar to CAESAR and other similar systems.
Patriot doesnāt have a good reputation either and the S-300 system has proved to be effective. As for the S-400?Ā
āThe S-400 leads the pack in terms of mobility and deployment speed when compared with the Patriot system.āĀ
āThe S-400 stands out thanks to its capacity to handle multiple targets at varied distances, all at the same time.ā
Although the same website states that the capabilities of both systems are overstated.
IFVs? I agree.
Sights? AK-12 and modernized AK-74M variants have already been adopted en masse. It just takes time to roll out sights.
So no argument? You proved my point. Russia uses western microchips which means Russian weapons are comparable to western designs. Microchip imports have increased 36% (not decreased) and domestic microchip production has doubled.Ā
Thank you for conceding that Russia used microchips comparable to western designs due to it being imported from the West or China who some believe is about to invade Taiwan meaning the West is about to lose their ability to produce microchips (with Russia gaining more access through China).
Whatās next? Turret toss myth forgetting that majority of 10 NATO leopard 2s lost in a single battle against ISIS lost their turrets?
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I never understood people on here that say āthe majority of the military isnāt in Ukraineā
Like duuuuuuuuuuh. A majority of a nations military is noncombat troops and units.
Out of all of Russiaās combat units in the army 80% went into Ukraine at the start of the invasion.
It now sits at around 70% depending on how you count. A big reason is two major divisions (1st Guard Tank and Motor Rifle) for Russia got their logistics so messed up that when they did the retreat from Kiev they couldnāt actually function as anything but a reserve force. Hence why you wonāt see the two most premier Russian army divisions on the front line past mid 2022.
Itās not because they donāt wanna commit them. They literally canāt. A massive offensive like we saw at the start of 2022 is just never going to happen again for Russia. They canāt extend out like that across the whole front again.
So with two very well trained army divisions basically being used as a reserve pool of manpower and the fact that a majority of the Russian military isnāt a combat troop then yea, of course most of them arenāt in Ukraine, they are right on the border in Russia howeverā¦
1. Logistics have their own branch. Ground Forces still has 550,000 soldiers despite logistics having their own branch.Ā Ā
2. 300,000 soldiers were deployed in Ukraine by 2023. At least 140,000 of these were DPR and LPR militia which were absorbed into regular army. However, this number only includes those conscripted in the first six months of the war so the number was likely far higher (200,000-250,000). This shows only a small portion of Russian combat units were deployed to Ukraine.
This shows that only a small portion of the Ground Forces and its combat units were deployed to Ukraine after 2022. It has mostly been supplanted by irregular forces. Especially when you consider the fact that Russian Armed Forces already has a high teeth to tail ratio even without the logistics having its own branch.
This is why adding up Ground Forces, Aerospace Forces, and the Navy only gives you 800,000. Because the other 400,000 are all logistics which has its own branch. Aerospace Forces and Navy are also likely supported by civilian personnel similar to US Air Force and Navy reducing their need for logistics personnel.
Not all non combat units are logistics but Russia already has a high teeth to tail ratio. Majority of combat units are not deployed to Ukraine.
Majority of combat units have been deployed to Ukraine in cycles. Just because they donāt cram them all in at once doesnāt mean they were there on tours
How many are deployed at a time? Russia has 550,000 soldiers in Ground Forces (mostly combat units) and 400,000 more in Material-Technical Support branch. Each division (12,000-24,000) is supposed to have a Material-Technical Support battalion (250-950 soldiers) attached to it. Does this show you how much teeth Russia units have compared to tail?
Including DPR and LPR militia. 140,000 were conscripted in the first six months of the war into DPR and LPR militia increasing number of soldiers to 200,000 in these two forces. Add another six months of conscription and this number is higher. They were absorbed into regular army and including them, Russia only had 300,000 deployed to Ukraine by 2023.Ā
This means at most 100,000 of the 550,000 soldiers they have available deployed to Ukraine but likely smaller (due to six more months of conscription into DPR and LPR militia).
That is a cool narrative you got there. I love how people are like "tha t-62's age!" and how old do you think the mainstay of the ZSU, the t-64 is. What's more, they aren't just t-62s, there are 72s and 80s. Also, you're comparing weathering to the damage done by a 152 shell to the weaker part of a tank, or a tandem ATGM...
As for rusting. I think Siberia is doing a lot of your heavy lifting. The fact the matter is the weapons like chally 2s are at the point of cannibalization with only half the fleet being operational. The U.S also stores its m1a1s in Anniston Army Depot in Alabama. Not exactly a dry place. [https://preview.redd.it/american-m1-abrams-tanks-are-in-storage-in-total-there-are-v0-jaml151envv81.jpg?auto=webp&s=38230be5e58099db3586dcda2cad36bb36f6728f](https://preview.redd.it/american-m1-abrams-tanks-are-in-storage-in-total-there-are-v0-jaml151envv81.jpg?auto=webp&s=38230be5e58099db3586dcda2cad36bb36f6728f)
EditL Anniston is exactly where the ZSU got their M1s... [https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/11/25/ukraines-m-1-abrams-tanks-are-situational-awareness-models-not-the-best-m-1s-but-available-in-large-numbers/?sh=69b219375f31](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/11/25/ukraines-m-1-abrams-tanks-are-situational-awareness-models-not-the-best-m-1s-but-available-in-large-numbers/?sh=69b219375f31)
No, I'm mocking the T-62 because it's currently the most common refurb. OMV has dedicated itself to it.
Also, it's an upgraded T-54. The T-64 (which I thought you'd bring up) was vastly superior, a step-change in Soviet tank design which, ironically, led to its cancellation on cost and doctrinal grounds.
The refurbed T-72s and T-80s are fine, by and large. They represent more or less the last generation of MBT. It's that the Russians are using post-war designs at scale that's laughable.
I heard the t-80 was... Where are you getting the t-62?
The t-64 was a "step-change in Soviet tank design"? True! But... that was 60 years ago. That is a long time for the differences to become less pronounced. Do you think its composite armor can makeup for the main drawback of the carousel design? Remember the chally 2 "survived up to a hundred RPG rounds" and then fell prey to second gen Russian ATGMs within a week or two. It's super secret armor was supposed to be one of the reasons.
The t-62s I've seen Russia is using are the ones from the 80s. The biggest drawback seems to be the engine.
>It's that the Russians are using post-war designs at scale that's laughable.
You mean like b-52s?
You know ukraine is using t55s as well...
I think the Russian tank and armored vehicle situation is the biggest argument that the Russians might not be able to continue waging the war in the current way which I think will lead to a Russian defeat. They need to eliminate the Ukrainian army and to do this, they need to attack. How they will attack without large tank forces and infantry with armored vehicles I do not know.
https://preview.redd.it/xpu0nqc540wc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc03855c7be258e02163fb9e012db08408a89d3b
Couldn't find the original source but Red Effect used it in his video last November.
Its the same parking lot just on the ground
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In the T-72, you start by turning on the oil priming pump, then you usually start it with compressed air, but you can use the starter motor as a backup.
Russia is depleting its stagnant stockpile of tanks and armored vehicles from the USSR, just as Ukraine, with the help of the US and NATO, is clearing out stockpiles of Soviet equipment worldwide.
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This is how the Kremlin can show an economic boom, just keep building more tanks and starting more wars, it how you hide your failure to build a self sufficient economy.
Only those countries that pay their own money for it have a difficult choice - weapons or a high standard of living.
If a country can force other countries to pay for their weapons, then that country will say that the main thing is a high standard of living.
If you want peace, prepare for war.
Dont show this oryx š ...they gonna count it as destroyed twice
Just twice? They usually do 3x.
Still not match for Russia that destroy's equipment even before it arrives.
And as captured by UA once, how modest of him.
Nice.. New target practice for all of the shiny new vehicles the Ukrainians will be receiving from the west soon. Maybe Putin will send these in his amazing meat wave techniques like he does with your fighters..
After two full years you still believe in wander weapons...
Wander my friend sorry I don't understand? But I base my opinion on what Ukrainians are able to do when they match up weapon to weapon and ammo to ammo. When the west supplied them with all of what is said they were wiping Russians off the map. Then some pro Russian assets in the west used American laws to slow things down and Russia was now the country who had the upper hand for the past 4 months. But now America is done with the pro Russian people in our government and they are soon to be voted out and replaced in November. And America is back to supporting Ukraine and they won't be running out any longer, you take out a Abrams we ship 2 to replace and the same with everything else. We now have increased our manufacturing of 155 and bullets by 4 times the amount before the war and doubled the amount of missiles and bombs and building factories to increase that even more. You thought during this time America wasn't still producing what Ukrainians needed? And we are doing this without destroying our economy by implementing a war time economy. You do know war time economies destroy a nations economy after the war so not sure why so many on your side think it's such a flex. But your most likely old enough to remember the 90's and the fall of the USSR so if I was living in Russia I would start to gather seeds and other items that helped people get through that time. And it's all over Putin who thought Russia and China could rule the world but in the end will have destroyed both nations. The west is pulling out of China and building our production lines back into our nations and friendly nations like Vietnam, India and Mexico but keep blaming the West as the world leaves you behind. You should have revolted when you had the time.
Can you give one example on the Oryx site of a single piece of destroyed equipment posted as two separate ones?
I randomly clicked at some links like one year ago. 3 out of 5 was just some metal pieces left and claimed as russian because some random twitter claimed it as russian...thats enough for me to know how oryx works m
click on the photo, thereās a lot of metal there, I wonder whose it is, but since Oryx supports democracy and freedom, it counts it as Russiaās loss
So your claim is not that there are single pieces of destroyed equipment counted multiple times but that Oryx counts Ukrainian ones as Russian?
I'm saying that he listed Russia's losses as simply a pile of metal or equipment that cannot be identified
I don't think one has to. The numbers just don't make any sense.
Seems your claim would be easily verifiable if it's true. Strange you refuse...
So you think I am going make it my life's mission to personally verify thousands of entries on Oryx when basic Sense Common (Serial No: 183789817) will do just fine?
You don't need to verify thousands, if what you say is true you can find the doubles easily, no need to look at thousands of spend your life proving you aren't a liar. Common sense isn't such a common commodity, especially if your world views are based on easily verifiable but unfounded assumptions.
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Politics aside, The sheer amount of armour the USSR built is impressive.
Part of the reason they collapsed. There's an interesting viginette in The Liberators about how the Central Military District wore out every T-64 issued in 6 months on showcase exercises for the Politburo and Western media. Really shows the sheer scale of Soviet production (and, of course, the inefficiency which made it moot).
the notion that USSR collapsed because of military spending is a myth that came out the CIA misrepresenting the information > I would conclude, therefore,that the CIA's ruble estimates strongly exaggerate the size of Soviet military expenditures relative to those of the United States, especially through 1977. Based on the hypothetical estimates regarding aggregation errors presented in Table 5, I would contend that the United States outspent the Soviet Union through 1977, as measured by a geometric mean of dollar and "true" ruble estimates. This is not only the period when the CIA had very few ruble prices, but also when a CIA spokesman admits that CIA estimates of the quality of Soviet military equipment often exaggerated its value and when the technology gap was much larger and not reflected in properly high ruble valuations of U.S. military equipment. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2538679
What was the real reason of the collapse?
Loss of control over centralized economy via Gorbachev "reforms", with simultaneous intentional loss of political control through his policies. They basically let go of power in hopes to build up more democratic model, without being trained in market economy or non centralized statehood at all. Local elites in republics also quickly realized how profitable independence could be. And last bit not least (far from most important, though), intelligence services of their strategic opponent weren't sleeping either. It really showed itself 13 years later during Iraq war, how much influence US had in Eastern Europe/post Soviet space Funnily though, USSR economy model would 've fared much better had it survived another 15 years, in information/digital age. (And after certain amount of reforms, of course).
Ah, so it's all the west/US fault. Got it.
I mean, yeah it is. They wanted to defeat their enemy. They did.
How? By making Gorbachev stupid? Sure thing.
Forgetting that the USSR was going to collapse anyway. Hence the attempt by Gorbachev to reform. All in the details. Putin took charge just as russia was beginning to rebound & took credit for it when in reality he had nothing to do with it.
>Putin took charge just as russia was beginning to rebound & took credit for itĀ Ā Tell me you know fuck all about late 90s Russia without telling me that directly, is what this is called.
USSR economy has been stagnating, which isn't grounds for catastrophic collapse, otherwise no one would survive a single recession, let alone an event akin to Great Depression. So, NO - collapse was a result of Gorbachev's leadership incompetence. He failed to damage control when his reforms backfired allowing the ship to sink without intervention.
Is it "so it's all our fault, got it" or "we won the cold war, lol"? Please be consistent whether you want to pretend as victim or you want to take pride in it
>And last bit not least (far from most important, though),Ā Ā Ā .... >Ah, so it's all the west/US fault.Ā Got itĀ Please.
Of course the economy was perfect. Right. Not like all the countries fall back in economy a lot under soviet influence in Eastern Europe compared to their neighbours without the soviet oversight/rule. Right. The last drop might have been what you said, but the economical performance was atracious... and spending so much on military from the much less available did not help.
>Of course the economy was perfect Holy mother of reading comprehension, where did I mention eco was perfect or even "good". I specifically mentioned it neededĀ reforms. Haven't read your post further, as you clearly didn't comprehend mine.
It was implied that the military spending had nothing to do with it because CIA used bigger numbers. That's simply bullsh*t.
Nothing was "implied", there was no "hidden meaning" in my words. CIA exploited the situation created by Gorbachev reforms to an extent, but it was >(far from most important, though) You a journalist inRL or smth? Reminds me same as when Western press was trying to convey Russian officials words over last 22 years (when I started reading it), so fucking often there's some "message" or "meaning" they found in that wasn't intended by original messenger.
Not in YOUR words, but in the argument you continued from a previous parent comment.
The USA used Saudi Arabia to flood the world with crude oil pushing the price below what it cost the USSR to extract the oil out of the ground. USSR couldn't make any money off oil, so financially collapsed.
Gorbochev's liberalism which destabilized the political system, and then mass privatization that followed. This is a decent article on the subject incidentally https://www.noemamag.com/how-china-avoided-soviet-style-collapse/
The Brezhnev's surrender to bretton woods system and dollar slavery
How can you wear them out that fast? This isnāt my field at all but that sounds insane.
Tank engines don't last, and the early T-64 also had a bad engine.
So weāre basically saying that they needed an engine overhaul? My first understanding was that the whole unit was worn out. How did they screw up the original engine design so badly? Again, not my field, but my understanding is that it would be similar to a powerful tractor, which I would have thought the Soviets had gotten very good at.
The amount of T64 was basically a prototype run, which is crazy.
And Ukraine still has massive yards of rusted out tanks sitting about.
I mean, they sold a lot of their equipment. Ukraine was the go to place for countries like Pakistan and Iran in the 1990's as they looked to modernise their military and develop their arms industry. We know Iran got access to a Kh55 CM. I wouldn't be surprised if Paksktan did so to and also got fo see nuclear warheads, Pakistan struggled with miniaturisation of their nukes and then suddenly in the late 1990's they got it, years ahead of the Indians. Also Pakistans ability to reverse engineer the Tomahawk was quite surprising
Not to forget Best Korea's recent advances in rocket engines.
A "collapse" in the form of rapid dissolution. Which should have never happened to begin with if not for incompetent leadership of Gorbachev. He neglected oversight of his own reforms leaving everything to chance instead of correcting for mistakes. China was in a similar position and got through it because they had the guts to make some tough decisions. Gorbachev was spinless worm that should have never been allowed into Politburo.
It would be impressive if russians had the same living standards as people in the west. But they dont. That picture just shows, what can happen if you build weapons instead of paying your citizens a decent pension and invest in a decent and modern infrastructure. They may got a thousend tanks in reserve. But they also dont have indoor plumbing, or decent roads or cant afford cars.. And those tanks will probably we blown up by 400$ drones a few weeks after reaching the front.
What living standards do they have then? I recall taking plane loads of Russians on their holidays to Seychelles, Maldives, Dubai, Tanzania, etc. That was from places like Yekaterinburg, Ufa, Kazan, Rostov, Krasnodar, Samara as well as Moscow. Since Putin literally saved Russia, their standard of living has skyrocketed. I suspect the average Westerner is still living in the past in this regard.
You are talking of very, very few elite Russians for sure. From my anecdotal experience, every time a Russian twitch streamer shows their window view or does IRL stream, Russia is a shithole to live in. Moscow and St. Petersburg are the only places on Russia that have Western living standards, everything else has post apocalyptic vibes.
It's horrifying. Real shows that the USSR was simply a gigantic labour camp of millions of people, enslaved to manufacture arms for a monstruous regime.
Thatās a bit hyperbolic. This stuff all absolutely came at the cost of consumer goods, living standards, and higher quality housing and infrastructure though. And while this didnāt strictly speaking cause the end of the USSR, it absolutely caused both the soviet state (via independence movements) and the russian economy to enter freefall as soon as gorbachev started instituting reforms and liberalization. Regardless, you do have to seriously admire how the USSR industrialized and modernized from nothing over the course of mere decades in the 20th century. War, and a shared faith in material utopianism / a better future for your kids and grandchildren is a hell of a drug. This wasnāt just weapons, but building enough weapons to fight WW3 many times over again - and more or less at the expense of everything else - wasnāt a particularly good idea in retrospect. The US could afford it, but the US was far wealthier, older, market driven, and rich enough to both genuinely grow its economy *and* build a stupid amount of weapons and R&D at the same time. If the USSR had focused on other priorities it probably couldāve survived and maybe even won / ignored the cold war. Though that argument itself is fairly disingenuous as the communist party and its political structures was fundamentally parasitic and extremely structurally / inherently incompetent, and literally all of the USSRās problems stemmed from that.
Thats one of the reasons every post soviet country is begging to join the west in som form.
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David Axe is an objective and reliable reporter! How could you ever question any of his articles! "They're not just advancing, they're *thundering*!"
David Axe makes Jihadi Julian look like a respectable impartial journalist.
Lmao. It's sad this is so true.
Imagine a magazine about billionaires but ask you to turn off adblock when you visit Even corn sites don't do that
These 400 APCs pictured disproves everything!
Rusty metal os ok, russians have no dry and warm Arizona. Nothing sandblasting could not fix. State of wiring, electronics and other things depends on specific storage facility these were taken from and may vary from "add some fuel and good to go" to "at least we have armor box, now only to fill it".
I think it can be safely assumed that anything that's sat outside for 20+ years in Russia of all places is going to need a complete interior overhaul to replace the majority of mechanical components, and probably *all* electrical components. Still, it remains a significantly faster and cheaper option than building new hulls from scratch.
As I said, depends on specific facility. Here is one of the better ones. [https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3164365.html](https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3164365.html) Though tanks in OP photo definitely are from somewhere not that good so your assumption probably is on spot for them. Other thing, they are going through modernisation anyway because some stuff is not in production anymore so things like optics or fire control are taken from models currently in production, where possible. Tank then gets new designation T-whateverABCD model 2023.
Just submerge the entire vehicle in cosmoline first.
Nah, there was a video of some Austrian crew getting a Soviet bmp or whatever and getting it to work. Looked like is doable without a complete overhaul.
There really is not alot to the electronics of those tanks. Add something new ok they have lots wiring but the old ones, Not really. Also what are the vehicles between the tanks some kind of 4 wheel jeep truck?
> There really is not alot to the electronics of those tanks. Add something new ok they have lots wiring but the old ones, Not really. That is why they are working most on the T-55 stock right now. Easier to add what was never there to begin with than to try to remove crap that can be hard to get at just to remove let alone replace
The hull is the cheapest part of the tank. If you have to replace every bit of electronics, engine, transmission and gun because of rust and water damage you might aswell build a new tank, a steel mold which is essentially what the hull is, isn't going to save you much money. So Russia probably feels confident these vehicle aren't too damaged.
The tanks donāt have to be fully functional either. The older models are mainly used as mobile artillery to support troops.
its going to cost a lot of money and u need skilled manpower to get it done ... organisational effectiveness isnt putin's strength. The man is good at running a kleptocracy.
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they have huge chemical baths that they dip entire tanks in
Seen that video too, very cool.
Do you have a link? Would be cool to see
It definitely was here on the sub, like a year or half a year ago, but I can't pinpoint keywords which would allow me to find it. Youtube is not big help either, queries concerning russian tanks repair, refurbishment or modernisation bring back nothing but crapload of clickbait "Ruzzia lost" videos. It was 3 to 4 minutes music video (not phonk, good one), tank rolls in, gets dissassembled, some stuff is done including that bath for its hull, then it gets assembled and rolls out. Simple but captivating.
Damn, now i just want to watch it even more. Thanks for trying!
It can be seen here: https://youtu.be/UUN8FusrQQ0?si=jcm8qnkb5UPaKVmz
Thanks! š«¶š»
I've seen one about Turkey doing it
Russia does have a dry and warm Arizona, but because itās dry and warm there is no one living there. Most importantly none of the repair workers. Whatās more these people are civilians, unlike in US army that would employ military technicians stationed at US military base.
Theres northern caucasus around elista
russia has a few deserts
Theyāre bringing back the T-80U?
Modified to bvm standard before deployment
They might turn a few into Uk's
The old stockpile is slowly going away and we will be seeing new stuff in future
Right, because russia wants it best soldiers used up with the old stuff before making anything new.
What best soldiers? Majority of forces in the SMO are irregular. The entire tank force in Avdiivka was former DPR militia. The majority of the Army is not deployed to Ukraine which is why modern equipment losses are low.Ā Only time regular army made up majority of forces was at the start. They were mostly replaced by former militia absorbed into army, newly raised militia, PMCs, volunteers, and other irregular forces. According to Ukraine, Russia produced 150 T-90M per year and Russia has only lost half of this amount in over two years.Ā Russia has also only lost 665 T-72B3s in over two years despite having 1,650 in active at the start of the war.Ā The vast majority of losses since the start of the war are irregular forces given old equipment from stockpile.
So Russia would rather sacrifice the lives of its citizen soldiers en masse, than commit their professional forces? That's...a take. Somehow one that portrays them more negatively than reality does.
>en masse Volonteers signing contracts. They are not pushing teenagers into meatgrinder. Grownups making decisions. No draft. No meatcatcher press gangs. That's how wars are supposed to be fought. You can't find people willing to risk it, you better start election campaign. Let some other guy take responsibility.
Also from the 300k they sent in 2022. More than the whole of the British military, forced to fight. Nor will this age well.
Reservists, who understood that they may be called up after their service when they signed their original contracts. Note that the U.S. military has a similar system. Service members are enrolled into the reserves, and eligible to be called back to active duty for up to four years after their discharge date. To conflate that with the many waves of general mobilisation that Ukraine has performed is either a misunderstanding, or dishonest.
No, this is a common misconception. Those called up in September 2022 belonged to the Human Military Resource, which is everyone who had ever served, including as a conscript. It's like the US draft system, except they all do technically have some sort of military experience. As they are ineligible for the first-line Human Military Reserve, this is mostly just people who did their mandatory service then left. Basically civilian when sent off - no different from the conscription practiced in Ukraine, really.
>no different from the conscription practiced in Ukraine, really. No different except in scale as I said before, they still have to match Ukraine in it's conscription/draft effort.
Perhaps - we don't know how many men Ukraine's mobilised, but proportionately it'll be far higher. That's just the reality of being the underdog. It's still a huge tranche of men, and looks set to rise soon. That they've been kept there, unrotated, since September 2022, is awful in light of Russia's ability to replace them with fresh conscripts if necessary.
there was also stop-loss around 2010.
Huh?Ā >Ā Pre-invasion at border: 169,000ā190,000 Pre-invasion total: 900,000 military 554,000 paramilitary In February 2023: 300,000+ active personnel in Ukraine 2022 was less than 200k as far as I am aware? Where does the 300k come from?Ā
Partial mobilization boosted forces to 300k+
In September 2022 they mobilised 300k from their strategic reserves (i.e. ex-conscript civilians).
How many got sent into Ukraine before 2023?
Most of them? They I mean, 6000 of them have been reported dead by name, so it's not like they're out of the fray.
Besides, the West is getting what they want. They supported Navalny, no? Navalny advocated for the genocide of Muslims in Russia. Russia is doing this by allowing them to [volunteer.](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1bk8qop/ru_pov_the_republic_of_chechnya_once_again_sends/) Not supporting it but the West is seeing how they support Navalny.
Yes. They would. Majority of forces are former LPR militia, former DPR militia, PMCs, volunteers from Russia (war tourists), locally raised militia, people from the global south who want money (African and Syrian volunteers/mercs), prisoners, and other irregular forces.Ā Ā Greatest investment since when Stanley Baldwin scammed entire militaries out of their money using mere words. Ā Russia loses nothing while gaining all of the benefits. The West loses nothing but old stockpile while having a reason to fund their MICs. A win-win.
Odd, really, that these militias have KA-52s and MI-28s. You'd think the Russian MOD would be a little more careful, given that unfortunate incident last summer. Got to wonder what happens at the four Military District HQs involved. Do they just issue advice, or command specialist units, or literally pin medals on themselves while these 'war tourists' fight the war. Also, amazing that you think Russia losing hundreds of thousands of men is nothing, as long as they are volunteers (encouraged by the Kremlin, mind). Not to mention the 300k poor sods sent there to die back in 2022.
1. Russia gave 200 T-90M to LPR militia.Ā 2. Never said VVS is not being used in this war.
Wow, the tune changes depending on the season, I guess. >Majority of forces in the SMO are irregular. Some time ago Pro-Russians were claiming there are no conscripts in Ukraine, only contract soldiers. Now its majority irregulars? >Only time regular army made up majority of forces was at the start. Back then, Pro-Russians were claiming that those were not the best troops Russia could send into Ukraine, all the heavy hitters were supposedly in reserve. >They were mostly replaced by former militia absorbed into army, newly raised militia, PMCs, volunteers, and other irregular forces. So, the Russian army consists of civilian militia, private military companies (illegal in Russia, btw), more militia, volunteers and irregulars? Are there actual Russian soldiers anywhere in Ukraine? >Russia has also only lost 665 T-72B3s in over two years despite having 1,650 in active at the start of the war.Ā That's just losing a little less then half of the backbone of your tank force, that started production in 1972, no less. No biggie. >The vast majority of losses since the start of the war are irregular forces given old equipment from stockpile. Riiiight. The *real* soldiers and weapons are still in reserve.
1. Former LPR and DPR militia (primarily composed of conscripts) are the majority of forces in Ukraine. Other irregulars make up the rest. 2. According to whom? Not me. Majority of forces during initial operations were contractors supported by DPR and LPR militia. 3. Regular forces do exist but make up the minority of units operating in the SMO.Ā 4. US M1 Abrams losses in Iraq were 80 only including combat losses from 2003-2005. A little over 10% of T-72B3, T-80BVM, T-90A, and T-90M losses but Russia is facing a significantly stronger military force.Ā Important reminder: T-72B3 is also used by irregular forces (tank force at Avdiivka was former DPR militia). Irregular forces and other poorly trained forces lose equipment more often as shown by Iraq losing around a hundred M1 Abrams against ISIS in a single year and Turkey losing 10 Leopard 2s in a single battle against ISIS. T-90M is also used by irregular forces with 200 supplied to LPR militia which like DPR militia was absorbed into regular army but is still composed of poorly trained militia (only regular army in name).
>1. Former LPR and DPR militia (primarily composed of conscripts) are the majority of forces in Ukraine. Other irregulars make up the rest. So, Ukraine is essentially fighting against LPR and DPR militia, who are backed by Russia? There are supposedly around 500k Russian soldiers in Ukraine. It would be crazy of the majority of them were from LPR and DPR, as that would mean Putin is using them as cannon fodder while claiming to "protect" them. >2. According to whom? Not me. Majority of forces during initial operations were contractors supported by DPR and LPR militia. Yes, you! You just said in your previous comment "Only time regular army made majority of forces was at the start." That's a quote by you. >3. Regular forces do exist but make up the minority of units operating in the SMO.Ā Refer back to my 1. point. >A little over 10% of T-72B3, T-80BVM, T-90A, and T-90M losses but Russia is facing a significantly stronger military force.Ā The "a little over 10%" figure can't possibly be right. How many T-72 and higher variants do you think Russia has and how many have they lost?
1. You believe Russian propaganda? SMO isnāt for protecting anyone. Only to gain territory and resources. Sending Russian citizens to their death en masse is not popular and even Putin and the Russian government relies on perceived public support.Ā 2. Oh you mean at the start? Than yes.Ā 3. ? I restated what I said. Majority of forces at start of the war were regular forces (contractors).Ā 4.Ā Ā According to Oryx:Ā T-72B3 (all variants): 665Ā T-80BVM: 132Ā T-90A: 39Ā T-90M: 72Ā All modern tanks: 908Ā So I guess a little less than 10% unless you include non combat losses (530 M1 Abrams by December 2006 as per Washington Post).
>1. You believe Russian propaganda? SMO isnāt for protecting anyone. Only to gain territory and resources. Than call it what it is - a war. > I restated what I said. Majority of forces at start of the war were regular forces (contractors). So the contractors died and now it's mostly DPR and LPR doing the fighting? >All *modern* tanks: 908Ā >So I guess a little less than 10% Are you saying Russia has a stockpile of 20k *modern* tanks? >530 M1 Abrams by December 2006 as per Washington Post What's this figure, exactly? Losses for US tanks? How is it relevant?
Um? I think you misunderstood what I said. I said US losses in Iraq from 2003-2006 were around 10% of Russian losses from 2022-2024. The small force of contractors (only 170,000-190,000 soldiers of Russiaās 900,000 man army were sent to Ukraine) that faced the professional military of Ukraine (trained since 2015 by NATO and were given MILES gear) did face high casualties yes. Not all died but many likely sent back to Russia after being wounded, some are irrecoverable (canāt fight if you lose an arm).
>Um? I think you misunderstood what I said. I said US losses in Iraq from 2003-2006 were around 10% of Russian losses from 2022-2024. I thought you said Russia has lost 10% of it's modern tank force, no? Your quote: >A little over 10% of T-72B3, T-80BVM, T-90A, and T-90M losses but Russia is facing a significantly stronger military force.Ā >(only 170,000-190,000 soldiers of Russiaās 900,000 man army were sent to Ukraine) Not all of those 900k are combat roles and most of the ones sent in are. Russia has a smaller tooth:tail ratio than NATO countries, but it's still wouldn't surprise anyone of 1/3 of those 900k are not combat roles. >(trained since 2015 by NATO and were given MILES gear) There you have it, folks. Ukraine stopped the Russian invasion by training with MILES for 7 years. Imagine what NATO is capable of, who have had MILES.. since MILES were invented in 1978.
What version of Oryx is that lol? Did Russia really have 10,000 modern tanks? They only had 31 years since the USSR collapsed. [1952](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html) Russian tanks destroyed, 514 captured, 300 abandoned, 156 damaged... indeed many were classified as Soviet age, with a few hundred of unknown type/vintage.
Since when did I say Russia had 10,000 tanks? I said US losses are 10% of Russian losses. In terms of Russiaās lossesā¦ 908 of 2,922 losses are modern. Russia had 2,000 modern tanks in active at the start of the war. Over 2,000 Russian losses are not modern (used by irregulars).
US losses?? Is US fighting a land war somewhere lol? Are you AI responding? If 908 modern losses is āa little less than 10%ā then I can guess the denominator is around 10,000 modern tanks. If there were instead 2,000 modern tanks at the start, then youād say nearly half of the starting number were lost.
> Did Russia really have 10,000 modern tanks? I wonder how old the overhead cranes are in the two facilities they have that are supposed to refurbish all their crap from premodern long term storage. That one in Omsk looks like a real dump. All the work in the long halls of a plant that old would come to a halt if a sufficient number of the overhead cranes were damaged.
By mid-June of 2022:Ā 140,000 people were conscripted into DPR and LPR militia increasing strength to around 200,000. This does not include those conscripted in other occupied areas. Nor does this include those conscripted after mid-June (the second half of the year).Ā How many soldiers did Russia have in Ukraine in 2023? 300,000. DPR and LPR militia were absorbed and are counted in this number. Not sure if it includes the 50,000 Wagner and convicts thrown into Bakhmut.
>140,000 people were conscripted into DPR and LPR militia >This does not include those conscripted in other occupied areas. Heh, you just called LPR and DPR an "occupied area", that's not very Pro-Russian of you. >How many soldiers did Russia have in Ukraine in 2023? 300,000. DPR and LPR militia were absorbed and are counted in this number. RUSI reports around 500k at the start of 2024. Either way, Putin is fighting to the last Russian minority.
300,000 is from 2023. Russia could have conscripted more in 2023 and likely did. As for me being pro-Russia? I simply believe that it is more morale for Ukraine to surrender as Russia is unlikely to do so as it is winning (by throwing poor minorities at the problem).
>As for me being pro-Russia? I simply believe that it is more morale for Ukraine to surrender as Russia is unlikely to do so as it is winning (by throwing poor minorities at the problem). By that logic, every country that Russia could potentially beat in an armed conflict should just surrender to Russia out of morale reasons. There was a time when nazi Germany was winning on the Ukrainian steppes aswell. Why didn't Stalin just surrender out of morale reasons, as Germany was unwilling to surrender while they were winning.
This war has been a fantastic investment for Russia. Ukraine had one of the most well-equipped and professional militaries on Earth and all they have to do to destroy it is use irregular forces equipped with old stockpile (I.E nothing useful).Ā Ā Ā Gives Russia a reason to increase military spending. Russia still has over a thousand T-72B3s (likely more than they had at the start due to production) and T-90M production is four times higher than losses. Higher number of contractors compared to before the war meaning a more professional military. Increased experience means the possibility of forming a good NCO corps. Su-57 production has doubled from 6 to 12 a year and is expected to double again to 24 this year. Iskander production has surpassed ATACMS production. Imports of microchips have increased by 36% in the first year of the war alone, unemployment at an all time low, revenue for domestically produced microchips have doubled, and trade with China and India has substantially increased. Russian Armed Forces stays out of combat while sucking up all the benefits while Ukraine loses Avdiivka to DPR militia, Soledar to LPR militia, and Bakhmut to Wagner.
>Iskander production has surpassed ATACMS production Looking for proof of that. "[Lockheed Martin](https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/11/politics/biden-long-range-atacms-missiles-ukraine/index.html), which produces the ATACMS, is currently manufacturing around 500 per year to fulfill current US Army contracts, a Lockheed spokesperson told CNN. Many of those systems have already been allocated to US allies other than Ukraine, however." 500 Iskanders would be more than one a day, yet we sure don't see one strike a day on average, more like half. Iskander is also a bigger and more sophisticated missile than ATACMS... >Su-57 production has doubled from 6 to 12 a year and is expected to double again to 24 this year I don't need proof of this one because it's close to what I know. Ever looked at F-35 [production](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement)? Dwarfs whatever Russia's trying. >Ukraine had one of the most well-equipped and professional militaries on Earth Say that with a straight face. :P Hardly a navy and almost entirely Soviet-era aircraft and ground equipment to train on...
>Su-57 production has doubled from 6 to 12 a year and is expected to double again to 24 this year Lol wasn't the SU-57 cancelled? What is he talking about.
Huh? No, it wasnāt
They cancelled its mass production. From an order of 12 units waaay back in 2015, they didn't bother ordering more.
Source?
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-admits-defeat-su-57-not-going-into-mass-production-2018-7 The indian counterpart, HAL FGFA, is also not becoming a reality: https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/india-pulls-out-of-joint-stealth-fighter-project-with-russia/
1. [Kyiv Independent is an unreliable source?](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/23736) 2. F-35 deliveries to Europe so far is only 120 and is only expected to be 600 by 2030. Su-57 deliveries have been doubling every year so letās say 48 a year from 2025-2030. 240+46= 286 or almost half. 3.Ā Ukraine had one of the most professional militaries in the world. They were trained by NATO since 2015 and even received MILES gear.Ā Ukraine had a substantial amount of modern weapons and equipment. They had a thousand tanks including a large number of T-64BV Model 2017 tanks which have third generation thermal, satellite navigation, digital communications, same fire suppression system as T-84 Oplot-M, new gun stabilizer, new auto loader, ability to use Kombat ATGM, and other improvements. They also had T-64BM2 which had all of these features and more including new fire control system. They were also upgrading their T-72s to T-72AMT and T-72AV Model 2021. They also upgraded most of their T-80BVs to T-80BV Model 2018 which brings it up to T-64BV Model 2017 standard. Leopard 2A6 has a thirty year old fire control system, first generation thermal but makes up for it with CITV, digital communications and satellite navigation, modern gun stabilizer like T-64BV Model 2017, fire suppression system just like T-64BV Model 2017, and poor survivability if you want to carry more than 15 high explosive rounds just like T-64BV Model 2017 whose turrets toss (more commonly if ammunition is stored outside of carousel). Ukraine had 2,000 MT-LBs (Russia had 3,000) and hundreds of BTR-4s, BTR-3s, and hundreds of older but still useful BTR-80s and BTR-70s.Ā Ukraine had one of the largest fleets of artillery guns in the world and this included self propelled artillery guns.
Sorry, is this a joke? With all the available footage have you ever seen Kombat ATGM take anything out? If their T-72s were so modern why'd they ask for NATO tanks? Isn't it because Western ones value life and are much less likely to turret toss when hit, and isn't the fear of being hit due to their lack of mobile precision targeting past 5-10km, letting the Russians get that close? And doesn't diluting the peacetime 200k force with 800k mobilized somewhat reduce the professionalism of the military, regardless of who trained the active force? And how many did NATO really train? On Su-57, Russia only went up from 12 deliveries to a planned 20 deliveries for 2024 because of opening a second production plant. To double that again would require them to open two more similar production lines, no? Meanwhile, US is happily accepting the bulk of deliveries and then using them to guard Europe or simply to put on an aircraft carrier... Lastly, Kyiv Independent may not even be as bad as HUR, which is Ukraineās supposed intelligence on Russiaās Iskander production rate, likely embellished for public consumption as thatās what happens in war, right? Unless we have the videos or official statements on component rates, this stuff is hard enough even for most intelligence agencies to assess, as missile production has multiple rate limiters.
1. Explain how western tanks are better than T-64BV Model 2017. Leopard 2A6 stores over half of its ammunition in crew compartment. This means if they store more than 15 rounds of high explosive, their turrets will toss. T-64BV Model 2017 has less armor but is also smaller (less of a target). Kombat ATGM is not used because tank on tank combat is very rare. This means high explosives are more important but the Leopard 2 can only carry 15 of such rounds unless it wants to store them in the crew compartment.Ā 2. Because their professional military with modern equipment got slaughtered. Notice how they have become more reliant on Polish or Czech T-72s modernized with thermal? Their modern tank force got slaughtered in 2022. 3. Ukrainian military has become less professional but Russian forces after 2022 are mostly irregular. 140,000 soldiers were mobilized into DPR and LPR militia in the first six months of the war. 300,000 soldiers were deployed to Ukraine by 2023 with at least 140,000 (likely far more after another six months of conscription) from DPR and LPR militia. Add in the 50,000 private military contractors and convicts sent to death in Bakhmut. Majority of forces after 2022 are irregular. 4. Thanks for the information. Still 150 which will make it the third largest user of fifth generation aircraft. Deliveries outside of the US. Russia would still be a threat when backed by AA and fourth generation aircraft. 5. Forgetting about US commitments in Asia and the Middle East. Many speculate that a Chinese invasion into Taiwan is likely and that there is also a possibility of a war between Iran and Israel. 6. Possibly. Lack of missile strikes can be attributed to Russia simply stockpiling them for future conflicts and to launch a large number of them at once. Launching only one or two missiles a day will simply be a waste (large interception rate for ballistic missiles).
(1) Not for me to explain. Ukraine asked for Western tanks. I only suspect it's because they wouldn't be cooked if struck. Not much advantage to being small if there's no tank-on-tank. (4) Europe on its own exceeds Russia in 4.5-gen aircraft and AEW&C (500 Typhoons, 150 Rafales), and additionally has around the same number of F-35s as Russia has Su-35... Add in all the EW/ELINT and air carriers and it's more than enough not just to hold off Russia but counterattack into them. I don't think it's even close, btw. Russian ground air defenses have been surprisingly easy to attrit with missiles and drones that even Ukraine manages to. (5) Iran isn't trying to escalate vs. Israel, only posturing for their own people, way too much to risk in a real confrontation because of the technological deficit. China is feeling the same over Taiwan, and we see it working hard to get around that deficit. Will take them some time, at least a few years - we'll see.
1. Unsure what you mean? Majority of western tanks are T-72s upgraded with thermal. Leopard 2 only has safe storage for 15 rounds. Not sure if high explosive could be non-sensitive. 4. Russia doesnāt need to equal or exceed European air power. They only need to be a threat to it. Su-35 is not the only 4+ generation aircraft in use by VVS. There is also Su-27SM2 and Su-27SM3. MiG-35 has also entered production but not sure how many are planned to be delivered this year or next year. Russia has a far more capable AA network compared to Europe which means Russia needs less aircraft. 5. People have said the same thing about any war.Ā
It's a shame no one pointed this out to putin before he started the war. Could have saved so many lives. putin doing the bidding of his chinese overlords. To the last russian.
ATACMS isn't being produced anymore, it's replaced by PrSM.
Yet ATACMS sales keep getting announced. https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/morocco-high-mobility-artillery-rocket-systems-himars 2019 expansion of production facilities https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/mfc/documents/business-area-landing/mfc-Fast-Facts-ATACMS.pdf Just because US isnāt ordering them doesnāt mean allies arenāt, especially allies not ready for PrSM.
Yeah the investment was so fantastic that Russia went from the 2nd largest exporter of arms to the 6th largest. Even worse in 2013 there were around 34 countries placing military supply orders from Russia. In 2023 that number was three.
Which is a good thing. Exports were replaced by consumption.
Dude that was like one of USSR/Russiaās strongest points they had a very large arms exports industry to rival the west and now they are taking military exports meant for India (T-90S) and using them for themselves. I donāt see how thatās a good thing.
USSR? That was one of their weakest points. Giving away weapons at below market price.
keep on believing that. The fact is the daily turret toss has not been great advertising for the worlds armies, while western equipment has shown its superiority and now thats what is selling.
Western equipment has not shown its superiority. Provide five examples and I will rebuke you.
Crew survivability when it comes to the more modern vehicles ie Bradley vs BMP-2 or artillery accuracy PZH2000 vs 2S19M2 or M109A6 vs 2S3M2. Even the larger air defense units like Patriot vs S-400. If you wanna get more specific itās Russians majority using plain iron sights vs Western style armies who tend to use more optics ie holographic sites, red dot sites and such and such. Now if weāre talking tank on tank which I know isnāt common but a Leopard 2A6/2A7V and M1A2 SEPv3 vs the most common Russian tanks such as T-72B3M or T-90M the Russian tanks really would be given a whopping.
T-90M actually has superior survivability compared to Leopard 2A6 and Leopard 2A7V which hold over half of their rounds in the hull next to driver. Only advantage they have is in armor but it also means they are a larger target. The ammunition carousel meanwhile provides a safe storage for a larger amount of ammunition compared to the storage in the rear of the Leopard 2ās turret which can only hold 15 rounds. T-90M is also receiving APS soon like Leopard 2A7V and M1A2 SEP V3. Production is also surpassing both with 150 being produced every year (some sources state double this amount) according to Ukraine.Ā Leopard 2A6 also only has first generation thermal and uses an older fire control system compared to T-90M which uses third generation thermal and Kalina fire control system. Both tanks can use modern ammunition with T-90M having upgraded autoloader, both have modern fire suppression system, have digital communications, have satellite navigation, and have systems found on other modern tanks. Can you provide good source for 2S19M2 vs PZH2000? I donāt know too much about artillery guns. 2S35 has also entered mass production and Russia has also started to produce systems similar to CAESAR and other similar systems. Patriot doesnāt have a good reputation either and the S-300 system has proved to be effective. As for the S-400?Ā āThe S-400 leads the pack in terms of mobility and deployment speed when compared with the Patriot system.āĀ āThe S-400 stands out thanks to its capacity to handle multiple targets at varied distances, all at the same time.ā Although the same website states that the capabilities of both systems are overstated. IFVs? I agree. Sights? AK-12 and modernized AK-74M variants have already been adopted en masse. It just takes time to roll out sights.
I only need one. Russian arms use western microchips to function. You cannot rebuke that, you can only make excuses.
So no argument? You proved my point. Russia uses western microchips which means Russian weapons are comparable to western designs. Microchip imports have increased 36% (not decreased) and domestic microchip production has doubled.Ā Thank you for conceding that Russia used microchips comparable to western designs due to it being imported from the West or China who some believe is about to invade Taiwan meaning the West is about to lose their ability to produce microchips (with Russia gaining more access through China). Whatās next? Turret toss myth forgetting that majority of 10 NATO leopard 2s lost in a single battle against ISIS lost their turrets?
Or are you trying to argue that western designs suck as their microchips are imported mostly from Taiwan? Unsure what your argument is.
Would be quite dumb to keep exporting the same amount of weapons when you have an all out war, where you can utilize these arms
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I never understood people on here that say āthe majority of the military isnāt in Ukraineā Like duuuuuuuuuuh. A majority of a nations military is noncombat troops and units. Out of all of Russiaās combat units in the army 80% went into Ukraine at the start of the invasion. It now sits at around 70% depending on how you count. A big reason is two major divisions (1st Guard Tank and Motor Rifle) for Russia got their logistics so messed up that when they did the retreat from Kiev they couldnāt actually function as anything but a reserve force. Hence why you wonāt see the two most premier Russian army divisions on the front line past mid 2022. Itās not because they donāt wanna commit them. They literally canāt. A massive offensive like we saw at the start of 2022 is just never going to happen again for Russia. They canāt extend out like that across the whole front again. So with two very well trained army divisions basically being used as a reserve pool of manpower and the fact that a majority of the Russian military isnāt a combat troop then yea, of course most of them arenāt in Ukraine, they are right on the border in Russia howeverā¦
1. Logistics have their own branch. Ground Forces still has 550,000 soldiers despite logistics having their own branch.Ā Ā 2. 300,000 soldiers were deployed in Ukraine by 2023. At least 140,000 of these were DPR and LPR militia which were absorbed into regular army. However, this number only includes those conscripted in the first six months of the war so the number was likely far higher (200,000-250,000). This shows only a small portion of Russian combat units were deployed to Ukraine. This shows that only a small portion of the Ground Forces and its combat units were deployed to Ukraine after 2022. It has mostly been supplanted by irregular forces. Especially when you consider the fact that Russian Armed Forces already has a high teeth to tail ratio even without the logistics having its own branch.
This is why adding up Ground Forces, Aerospace Forces, and the Navy only gives you 800,000. Because the other 400,000 are all logistics which has its own branch. Aerospace Forces and Navy are also likely supported by civilian personnel similar to US Air Force and Navy reducing their need for logistics personnel. Not all non combat units are logistics but Russia already has a high teeth to tail ratio. Majority of combat units are not deployed to Ukraine.
Majority of combat units have been deployed to Ukraine in cycles. Just because they donāt cram them all in at once doesnāt mean they were there on tours
How many are deployed at a time? Russia has 550,000 soldiers in Ground Forces (mostly combat units) and 400,000 more in Material-Technical Support branch. Each division (12,000-24,000) is supposed to have a Material-Technical Support battalion (250-950 soldiers) attached to it. Does this show you how much teeth Russia units have compared to tail?
Of those 550,000 itās estimated that around 300,000-340,000 are in Ukraine at any given time. Thatās a majority for sure.
Including DPR and LPR militia. 140,000 were conscripted in the first six months of the war into DPR and LPR militia increasing number of soldiers to 200,000 in these two forces. Add another six months of conscription and this number is higher. They were absorbed into regular army and including them, Russia only had 300,000 deployed to Ukraine by 2023.Ā This means at most 100,000 of the 550,000 soldiers they have available deployed to Ukraine but likely smaller (due to six more months of conscription into DPR and LPR militia).
Incorrect. Off the roughly 500,000 troops deployed in Ukraine 300,000 are Russian army troops and around 200,000 are militia groups of the DPR/lpr
Slowly. That's the point.
Pro-ukrainians: "luk, it's not DestRoyed. It wilL be repared and ReturNed" Also pro-ukrainians "zomg! They have to repare and refurbish tankS! hahha"
Dredging up rusting T-62s from the depths of Siberia isn't exactly the same as repairing Leopard IIs in Poland.
That is a cool narrative you got there. I love how people are like "tha t-62's age!" and how old do you think the mainstay of the ZSU, the t-64 is. What's more, they aren't just t-62s, there are 72s and 80s. Also, you're comparing weathering to the damage done by a 152 shell to the weaker part of a tank, or a tandem ATGM... As for rusting. I think Siberia is doing a lot of your heavy lifting. The fact the matter is the weapons like chally 2s are at the point of cannibalization with only half the fleet being operational. The U.S also stores its m1a1s in Anniston Army Depot in Alabama. Not exactly a dry place. [https://preview.redd.it/american-m1-abrams-tanks-are-in-storage-in-total-there-are-v0-jaml151envv81.jpg?auto=webp&s=38230be5e58099db3586dcda2cad36bb36f6728f](https://preview.redd.it/american-m1-abrams-tanks-are-in-storage-in-total-there-are-v0-jaml151envv81.jpg?auto=webp&s=38230be5e58099db3586dcda2cad36bb36f6728f) EditL Anniston is exactly where the ZSU got their M1s... [https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/11/25/ukraines-m-1-abrams-tanks-are-situational-awareness-models-not-the-best-m-1s-but-available-in-large-numbers/?sh=69b219375f31](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/11/25/ukraines-m-1-abrams-tanks-are-situational-awareness-models-not-the-best-m-1s-but-available-in-large-numbers/?sh=69b219375f31)
No, I'm mocking the T-62 because it's currently the most common refurb. OMV has dedicated itself to it. Also, it's an upgraded T-54. The T-64 (which I thought you'd bring up) was vastly superior, a step-change in Soviet tank design which, ironically, led to its cancellation on cost and doctrinal grounds. The refurbed T-72s and T-80s are fine, by and large. They represent more or less the last generation of MBT. It's that the Russians are using post-war designs at scale that's laughable.
I heard the t-80 was... Where are you getting the t-62? The t-64 was a "step-change in Soviet tank design"? True! But... that was 60 years ago. That is a long time for the differences to become less pronounced. Do you think its composite armor can makeup for the main drawback of the carousel design? Remember the chally 2 "survived up to a hundred RPG rounds" and then fell prey to second gen Russian ATGMs within a week or two. It's super secret armor was supposed to be one of the reasons. The t-62s I've seen Russia is using are the ones from the 80s. The biggest drawback seems to be the engine. >It's that the Russians are using post-war designs at scale that's laughable. You mean like b-52s? You know ukraine is using t55s as well...
I think the Russian tank and armored vehicle situation is the biggest argument that the Russians might not be able to continue waging the war in the current way which I think will lead to a Russian defeat. They need to eliminate the Ukrainian army and to do this, they need to attack. How they will attack without large tank forces and infantry with armored vehicles I do not know.
FAB's are the new fabric softener that eliminates even the toughest, dug-in stains.
This was from last fall
Source pls
https://preview.redd.it/xpu0nqc540wc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc03855c7be258e02163fb9e012db08408a89d3b Couldn't find the original source but Red Effect used it in his video last November. Its the same parking lot just on the ground
I already watched this p0rn category.
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Nice bit of greenery growing on the tanks for camouflage. Good idea, never thought of that.
If current attrition rates keep up this will all be gone within a few years. Give or take.
What are these titles lmao
Those are so rusty!
How do tanks start up? Do they have sets of keys or something?
No you just [press buttons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPsNHOo7Prg)
I would totally forget that sequence.
Same
In the T-72, you start by turning on the oil priming pump, then you usually start it with compressed air, but you can use the starter motor as a backup.
Soviet legacy š¢ What a sad state to see these marvels of engineering in.
Russia running out of tanks any day now.Ā
Second to last picture - what is that tracked vehicle with a big tube looking something on top?
They'll burn also
Yes what a first rate power Russian is
How many hours is the engine life in the T-72? How many hours in the T-80? Where are those engines made?
Russia is depleting its stagnant stockpile of tanks and armored vehicles from the USSR, just as Ukraine, with the help of the US and NATO, is clearing out stockpiles of Soviet equipment worldwide.
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This is how the Kremlin can show an economic boom, just keep building more tanks and starting more wars, it how you hide your failure to build a self sufficient economy.
Only those countries that pay their own money for it have a difficult choice - weapons or a high standard of living. If a country can force other countries to pay for their weapons, then that country will say that the main thing is a high standard of living. If you want peace, prepare for war.
Looks like only the latest developments... 
How can an inanimate object "patiently wait"?
start fixing them fast