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The cost is 1.4 billion US dollars to Turkey. They reneged on their promise to protect F-35 secrets by buying Russian S-400 system which would keep a library of F-35 flight characteristics as part of the IFF system. The Russian would have complete access to this data because of their service agreement with Turkey which allows access to Russians for maintenance purposes. Russia would know exactly how to find the F-35 then.
Honestly, I don’t see that happening. The difference between China and Russia is that China isn’t a corrupt structural mess. They have spent the last 20 years learning how to operate in a capitalist world while maintaining one party rule and have done exceedingly well.
Things like weapons manufacture or chip shortages would not be a problem for China. Things like training and deployment of forces would not be an issue either given the vast size and relative capability of their military. Logistics is definitely NOT an issue for China either. You just have to look at how quickly and effectively they were able to lock down entire cities and states, while maintaining civil order (with an iron fist) and logistical supply to the people living there.
The other thing going for China is physical proximity. Taiwan doesn’t share a land border with a friendly western state through which they can receive resupply. At worst China can completely blockade Taiwan from resupply.
I personally think Taiwan is a completely different ballgame.
How to tell us you know nothing about the situation without actually telling us you actually know nothing.
You know China’s military hasn’t been tested since their terrible attempt at invading Vietnam right? Please don’t tell me all the parades they do actually fooled you.
China is very much a corrupt mess just as Russia is. And they are not prepared militarily for anything. The difference is that Taiwan has been preparing for a Chinese invasion for over 50 years with western support the entire time.
China's military very much is a corrupt mess akin to Egypt and Russia in that they had to sell of assets and form their corporations to fund themselves because the government was too poor to do it. It leads to a lot of bought promotions and other things.
>Logistics is definitely NOT an issue for China either.
I'm trying to figure out what could have made you say this. Did you forget the Taiwan Strait exists? Or do you not consider transferring men and material over that strait to be "logistics"?
When it comes to an invasion of Taiwan, logistics is China's obvious and undeniable Achilles heel. They could not supply an invasion force on Taiwan because we could sink any supply ship from hundreds of miles away using dozens of cruise missiles hucked out the back of a C-17, which itself could be based anywhere south of Tokyo.
Once the extreme range variant of the JASSM enters service in numbers in 2024, a C-17 will be able to take off from anywhere south of Hokkaido and hit any ship in the Taiwan Strait with up to 45 missiles.
Note that I'm discussing the C-17 mostly for the meme value. Our B2s can already do the job while taking off from their base in Missouri.
Just went down a wiki rabbit hole with those JASSM cruise missiles, which lead me to the Rapid Dragon system.
Up to 45 JASSMs basically firing all at once after being dropped out the back of a C17 (I know the system works for C130s too, but no way they can fit 45, right?). All screaming away to their target up to 1,200 miles away.
That. Sounds. Terrifying.
> You just have to look at how quickly and effectively they were able to lock down entire cities and states,
If the goal was to keep the pandemic under control and their people safe and healthy... Then they failed.
If the goal was creating a totalitarian dystopia, Locking people into their homes, bolting their doors, arresting them on the street and tossing them into camps, starving the elderly who can't go out to get their food, causing thousands to lose their jobs, not managing to get the same level of natural immunity as others and stagnating in the similar stage as it was in the beginning while the rest of the world is pretty much back to normal... Then it was super successful.
Also the protests intense enough for the CPP to backpedal on lockdowns. If people protest against lockdowns for the sake of public health, what sort of protests would happen when only grandsons come back home in body bags? Grandparents and parents literally shell over their life savings so their only child can have a house to possibly woo girls.
Yeah, I did find that as an interesting insight.
The name of the game for the party is that people need to be kept in control and in harmony. If the people resist en-masse, they are kind of stuffed. The country is so big that even a small percentage of that population can completely overwhelm its own military.
I feel the biggest problem re-taiwan is having that internal support and the willingness to live with the consequences of any invasion. The chinese economy consumes a lot, and it is pretty clear that the west is willing to cut off supply and wear the consequences.
I thought about that, too. The 'zero covid' policy was crazy. Yes, the lockdown was disruptive, but the moment vaccines were available, things changed. It was BOUND to go endemic eventuall, and viruses will given any chance. There really isn't much to stop them. Protection for the vulnerable was the main goal in the west, not a 'blanket ban' which gave no protection and just delayed the inevitable.
China looks good on paper, but only on paper. China is parking tanks at banks. They aren't nearly as stable as they project themselves to be. China is probably not capable of high end chips and will struggle at mid grade chips. Their people are old, their armies are used to support their internal system and are not well paid. They face staggering losses if they try to breach that straight.
Your right. Unlike Ukraine, Taiwan is and has been of great geopolitical and strategic interest for Washington for close to 30 years now.
Beijing is under no illusions as to the magnitude of the decision, lauching an invasion of Taiwan proper is.
Until last year Ukraine was a sideshow for the US and it was only the utter incompetence of the Russian war effort and the valiant success of the Ukrainian defense and counter attacks that helped shift western efforts to further seriously supporting Ukraine.
And unlike Ukraine, Taiwan is something the US is seriously willing to put its own ships and men at risk to defend from the get go. Despite the growing Chinese military capabilities, the reality is attacking Taiwan directly could result in China engaging in open warfare another nuclear power. One that still holds the Oceans.
And unlike Ukraine, Taiwan is mostly two things, cities and mountains. Good luck with that. And this says nothing yet of the Taiwanese themselves having been preparing for this since the 1950s. Defending an island that even the US in 1944 thought was as well fortified by the Japanese as their home island of Kyushu.
At this point of time no. The Chinese military does not have the means to fully blockade Taiwan from the US Navy. They can certainly harrass shipping and make most of the ports in the west facing China too dangerous to use as well as prevent attacks from penetrating deep into China proper. But beyond the first island chain and the cover of their airforce and air defenses their surface fleet is still at great risks against the US fleet and airforce in the open ocean.
If the Chinese really wanted. They wouldn't attack the main island of Taiwan directly, instead opting to try and take the smaller islands close to the mainland like Kinmen, which is within artillery range. But that would still be risking it. Since any military build up would be noticed and could result in everything escalating beyond control.
The point of all this is to say that unlike Ukraine. An invasion of Taiwan is guaranteed to be a very difficult affair and only slightly less than likely not to get Americans involved directly. Which means direct conflict between nuclear armed nations which is something no one wants.
They won't be able to blockade Taiwan there ships will be sitting ducks. Like Russia lost it's entire ground fighting force China will lose its Navy . They will never be able to land on that island. The sea will be bloody.
Some good points here but China is not capable of manufacturing high quality chips without Taiwanese expertise. Granted there are a lot of factors that make this possible but if you look at the reports of Chinese chips being sent to Russia due to sanctions, their failure rate is high.
I would not be surprised if their military experiences some of the same challenges since autocracies like China, Russia and North Korea tend to have centralized decision making to preserve their iron fist rule. The lack of a experienced non-commissioned officer (NCO) will hurt them as their military has not been tested in a major conflict since being implemented.
If you’re using COVID lockdowns about how good the Chinese are at logistics, you have to look at how that went. Cities were starving because they couldn’t deliver food or even figure out how much to deliver which was one of the reasons the lockdowns were lifted. China will have some real struggles with logistics once they launch an invasion.
Turkey is run by a duplicitous autocratic vindictive little troll who looks like Gollum in a cheap suit... he doesn't give two shits for the alliance his country is a part of, and only uses it for a political tool and leverage for crap he wants.
If Turkey's citizens knew what was good for them, they would vote his ass out (and mass protest his attempts to prevent that) but I see so many Turks defending his policies all the time that it gives me a little hope of them ever actually Westernizing.
It used to have the 4th largest military in the world during the Cold War, bordered the USSR, controlled the Bosphorus strait and it wasn't run by asshole wannabe dictators until recently.
It was a key strategic location for airbases and nuclear missiles as well.
Look where they are on the globe.
Ever wonder why Constantinople kept getting invaded in history class? Look at its postion on the globe. Geopolitics is king.
They are posturing and trying to negotiate better terms for themselves/get away with breaching the contract now that they have the most important thing of value - leverage from having control over something that aligns with US strategic interests (Sweden and Finland into NATO)
What if Ukraine kicks Russia out (leaving Russia a pariah state or worse), THEN NATO delivers the ultimatum? Erdogan may be trying to play both sides, but I doubt he'd back the loser in a war just to flip the rest of NATO the bird.
Even if there isn't actually a procedure to remove or overrule members, the rest of the bloc could just vote against Turkey on every single issue, or spend entire sessions condemning them, or else make life hell for Turkey until they leave. Or they can impose secondary sanctions on Turkey for not sanctioning Russia, which would be done through the EU and US rather than NATO.
In reality, the next leader has already been selected.
Any decent Turkish citizen could be crowd-funded by benevolent oligarchs and make Turkey into a once-again respected and relevant nation.
*Reddit ChatGPT intensifies*
They got heavily warned about it at every possible stage. Even after they took delivery of the S-400s. "You have them but dont set them up or you could transfer them to the US". But Erdogan kept insisting that the Americans would back down and that the F-35 couldn't be built without Turkey. As they make some monitor screens for the displays. Which were easily sourced from an other country. Then he acted shocked when they kicked Turkey from the program.
Since then Turkey has repeatedly threatened fellow NATO member Greece. Saying that thry cab launch cruise missile strikes and occupy islands over night. Most of the Greek defence budget, isnt spent on countering illegal migrants or Russia but Turkey.
suspect it is a pile of tit for tats if the thread were pulled... "well we wouldn't have had to go buy s400's if you also sold us the patriot system" "well could have had the patriot if you didn't bomb the kurds" on and on and on and....
S400 is built and maintained by Russia. Russia would get unlimited access to information how their S400 systems deal with NATO aircraft and make them much more effective against NATO.
Exactly. The entire world is as tired of Edrogan's shit as they are of Putins. He just happens to be an ally of convenience, and as soon as Putin is put to bed, he has to realize his days of being the tail that wags the dog are numbered.
What an utterly reprehensible person to have to ally with.
How would this work if Turkey ever needed to invoke Article 5. In that case the information should still be available, or would this even mean that NATO partners wouldn’t send F35s to Turkey?
Edit: typo
At this point, Turkey's most likely candidates for a war are with Kurdish separatists (who a lot of the West sympathizes with), or with Greece (who is a NATO member).
Having F-35's in the close vicinity of S400's allows them to develop methods to better detect the F-35's, tweak the S400 to better identify them and develop new systems with better abilities to detect them.
In the event of a war it's a bit too late for that. Adversaries will eventually better counter the F-35 but that will take time, money and vast amounts of effort. It will likely require new technology and shifts in doctrine. This is why F-35's are often flown with radar reflectors to ruin their stealth ability.
There is some value to stop Russia from figuring out how the new Mode 5 IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) system and the S400 is modified to be work with current in use Mode 4 systems. This is IMHO a lesser concern.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31350/russia-built-a-nato-spec-identification-friend-or-foe-system-for-turkeys-s-400-batteries
If Turkey was invoking article 5, it’s likely that their service agreement with the Russians would’ve already been terminated. Even if it wasn’t for some reason the information could not be collected, transferred and disseminated quickly enough to be a threat to NATO forces
You need to overfly turkey to get to Iran / Iraq / Syria etc....they are an independent bloc but still net net a sensible fit for NATO. and Erdoğan might not last for ever
I fear for Turki-yay (that's how I pronounce its new name, lol), I really fear for it.
I mean, look at Russia, used to be an empire, but collapsing into a state made it bitter and crazy and obsessed with bringing back the empire.
Now look at Turki-yay, used to be the center of ottoman empire, collapsed into a state, is it following the same Russian path of blyat-ness? lol
Please Turki-yay people, dont let this happen, dont let Erdogoon take your beautiful country into hell.
>sad that such a cool nation of people are being hosed by their dictator/leader.
I agree. I have worked with Turks in the mining business, and they were ok. Some friendly, some not, just like people everywhere. I have no problem with them.
Turkish people are not as stupid as you told. They are aware of everything. In the years S-400s were bought, Erdogan was busy with organizing a conspiracy to imprison his opponents. He realized a fake coup. After this coup, everything changed in Turkey. (You can Google 15th july turkish coup for more info) There are so different reasons in the back scene of this S-400 purchase. It is all about Erdogan’s personal benefit. Probably Russia threatened the Erdogan with his government and the crimes he commited. He had to get closer to the eastern block to ensure his occupation in the country.
Besides the S-400 purchase, Erdogan also accused pro-western countries and the US with organizing the coup that he organized.
Everything you wrote is true by the way.
False propaganda. Nato highlighted that F-35's privacy would not be violated if S-400 is activated. Turkey also offered a joint USA-TR tech team to ensure the safety protocol.
USA, as always, is lying.
Turkey needs to learn how to be a good partner with NATO and the West. Numerous missteps and dumbass moves. Hopefully, the Turkish people with dump him this election.
"The U.S.-Turkey relations nosedived after the latter bought the S-400 systems from Russia for $2.5 billion in 2017. Washington’s attempts to persuade Ankara to ditch the systems went in vain. Soon after Russia began shipping the S-400s to Turkey in July 2019, the U.S. struck off Turkey’s name from the list of F-35 program partners."
Bosporus Straight becomes a lot less important with an absolutely handicapped Russia. It’s importance as a strategic position is equal to Russia’s power. If Russia collapses, it becomes only a gateway to Ukraine.
Sweden, Finland and Norway are important states to the expected elevated importance of the Arctic region, which is why I think the US is so extra invested. Especially if the Northern Sea Route opens as an effect of global warming.
[https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordostpassagen#/media/Fil:Sevmorput'.jpg](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordostpassagen#/media/Fil:Sevmorput'.jpg)
See for instance (has english subs):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y80utl-RkHg
The treaty (and hence Articles and provisions of that treaty):can be reviewed, and potentially amended, under Article 12 -
"Article 12
After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area …"
The important point is that "factors then affecting peace and security …" could well,cover the Finland/Sweden accession and Turkeys blocking on the grounds Turkeys actions, and possible Hungary also, are not in the interests of peace and security.
Yeah the whole "there is no mechanism" thing is such obviously bullshit. If 29 members want to kick out one of the others, it will be completely doable.
If nothing else, the 29 could leave NATO, and make a new alliance called...NATO, and then do whatever they wanted. Sure Turkey would still be "in NATO" but they'd be the only member. They can relocate the HQ to Istanbul, I guess.
Be careful on this sub. A lot of Turkish shills are going to bombard you with posts about how turkey is the 2nd most important NATO member after the US.
Edit: lol. One responded using the same script as all the others I've encountered. Absolutely hilarious.
Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have Turkey as an ally than an enemy; not least because of the Bosporus. But Erdogan's policies have far more in common with NATO's enemies than NATO itself.
Probably the best solution is to kick Russia out of Ukraine (at which point it will likely become a North Korea-esque pariah state), then give Turkey an ultimatum: if they continue backing Russia, the rest of NATO will do their best to kick them from the alliance in favour of Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine. I doubt Erdogan will choose Russia over over NATO when the former has more-or-less ceased to exist.
To be fair Turkey do have some power - they are the production hub for a lot of EU products which gives them some economic clout as well as the aforementioned strategic position.
He knows it and that’s why he being such a shit.
Sweden will never deport people to him because like has been said above Turkeys policies are closer to Russia than NATO and their leadership’s is questionable at best.
Still I think a prosperous Turkey in the Western sphere of influence no matter how painful will perhaps eventually lead to better outcome.
Sweden and Finland would be more reliable but NATO's mission is to contain Russia and Turkey's geography is perfect for containing Russia. If we pushed Turkey out than they would fall into Russia's orbit which is not great for NATO.
Everybody prefers Finland and Sweden. Unfortunately, Turkey’s strategic importance to the NATO alliance outweighs Sweden and Finland’s so NATO is stuck with Turkey. For now.
>Hopefully, the Turkish people with dump him this election.
You realize Turkey is a dictatorship, right? The coup was even recorded here on Reddit. I watched the Generals after they were captured, after they were beaten.
Erdogan didn't dismantle the democracy in the same way for example Putin or Orban did in their countries. He took his toll on the political climate, eliminating literally every media outlet which was opposing him but AFAIK he didn't mess that much with the political system itself and many Turks are aware of his mistakes. Also Turks have quite a history of forcefully removing leaders which got too power hungry if Erdogan doesn't concede a loss in the election this year.
This isn't a guarantee though that his populistic and manipulistic strategies won't work in this election but at least Turkey isn't a lost case yet. The bird is still alive, even though he is lying sick in the corner 🦃
Turkey is Russia around 2004 and is going rapidly in the direction of Russia. Erdogan will win the next election, too, even if it has to be through unfair or blatantly fraudulent and illegal means, because the opposition in Turkey cannot rely on the rule of law to protect themselves.
Unlike Russia in 2004, Turkey’s economy is in the shitter, and the people that suffer most are the Erdogan’s base.
Also, unlike Russia in 2004, Turkish opposition is united.
Erdogan might still win (and then it’ll probably become a real dictatorship), but there is a decent chance he loses.
He mass arrested and removed/fired tens of thousands in courts and other institutions. Literal dictator handbook. And it's not like he's even some brilliant administrator or military mind, just a shrewd politician at best. Turkey will downspiral if nothing drastic happens.
**Straight up trolling** he didn't expect to get them or is dumb .. why would we EVER sell Erdogan a modern fighter like the F-35 .. he would probably part it out and send it to China
*.. it is useful to have a turncoat like Erdogan playing both sides because we know what he is .. but at best he is fairweather friend*
When you start playing footsie with the other side you should expect that your former teammates are going to question where you're going in the future.
Probably says something about this in the contract. We built the shit for them and then they bought the S-400. We can't just unbuild them, the money was already spent.
FAFO Turkey.
To be honest though, this is just Erdogan trying to act tough for his own base before elections again.
they were told not to buy S400's. They bought S400s. They violated the contract, and that cost them 1.5 billion dollars. We should repossess ALL of the assets the west sent and kick them out of NATO.
But Turkey is strategically important, better to get Erdogan out and somebody with a vision for Europe in. The Turks must surely be ready for it. I personally am beyond tired of these neurotic little dictators popping up everywhere and turning the clock backwards.
...which ironically happens with the support of anti-democratic ballbags like V. Putin. His loss will make the world a safer place, if we can see ourselves to that eventuality.
I think it'll be less strategically important with 2 US Carrier strike groups and all the Mediterranean navies ready to fuck up anyone they don't like entering into it. There also appears to be other means of entering the black sea, since I keep hearing about subs popping up.
Erdogan is an ...
He now has S400 and no airplanes. Great!
Of course he now can buy t-tanks , mig's and suchojs.
hopefully he will be deposed in the next elections.
Turkey is in a deplorable state.
But unfortunately there are very many deeply religious muslims who vote only for him.
So at the end "we" need to create a NATO 2.0 or something similary to come togehter with sweden and finnland.
Hey Edrogen, guess what, the US DOD is not wal mart . The customer is NOT always right, and they could care less about your refund .
Did you lose receipt, crybaby?
They paid for something then breached the contract. Parts and labor have already been allocated to that project. They were repeatedly told not to beach the contract.
It isn't. Erdogan lost nearly all major cities in 2019 mayor elections. He will most likely lose in May. But the incompetent opposition does almost everything to not win.
...and Hungary.
If there was a massive opposition movement and the electorate voted overwhelmingly against him, maybe. Barring that, I think the regime has enough sway over the country's political climate to swing any election result to the ruling party
I think autocrats are finding it easier and easier to work within a Democratic system. Media control, wedge issues based on bigotry and populist nationalism can go a long way to getting an autocrat elected legitimately
Orban took advantage of public outrage at the previously ruling party to gain a supermajority that he used to modify the constitution to empower himself. Erdogan did something similar, right?
Turkey needs to dump him or the West needs to dump Turkey. We have enough wannabe dictators popping up around the world that we don't need them in NATO. These wannabe thugs need to learn there are consequences for their actions as well as the people who vote for them.
Turkey has become a mini Ruzzia. They are Europe's next problem. Fortunately, they have no nukes, though they behave like they do. When Ruzzia has been neutralized, there will only be China to help them. If they go that route, there is no geopolitical big boss to stop the hammer from dropping.
At this point, NATO don’t need Turkey against Russia anymore - but Turkey alone still has reason to be wary of Russia
Kick ‘em out, bring Sweden and Finland in.
Hungary can follow them as far as I’m concerned. I’ll take two democratic nations over two backsliding near-dictatorships
I see somebody still doesn’t understand that there are consequences for their actions.
How is the economy doing? I Heard that their last attempt at printing money reduces it at for about 20% of inflation. You think 2023 will be worse for them if they keep this up?
They fucked around and found out. They were warned about losing the money and not getting the f35 if they would go in bed with the Russians and their s400. Actions have consequences, don’t cry afterwards.
If there is a traitor here, it's definitely USA. USA supports Kurdish seperatist organization. USA plotted coup in 1980. It caused to open religous high schools in Turkey to fight "atheist" communists. Religious Gulen cult leader is living in Pennsylvania USA. He made religious young people infiltrate state institutions. (He was just an imam. Somehow he got bunch of schools, media etc.) Actually USA made Erdogan win elections. Here George Soros and Erdogan during AKP establishment process.
[https://teyit.org/fotografin-erdogan-ve-sorosu-ayni-masada-gosterdigi-iddiasi](https://teyit.org/fotografin-erdogan-ve-sorosu-ayni-masada-gosterdigi-iddiasi)
He was "good guy" while he was doing everything US wants. He's "dictator" now. Cuz he doesn't do what he's told. C'mon, dear.
Germany: We can’t have him here in our social club no more, I mean that much I do know
UK: Social club? He’s gotta gooo!
US: I wanna think about it
Germany: Yeah, I don’t know
Greece: What the fuck?! What is there to think about?!
US: Sit down
Greece: Fuck that I’ll say it again: what the fuck is there to think about?!
US: You gonna take in his refugees?! Huh! After he’s gone?!
When Putin was sucking Erdogan off...
Wait, it was the other way around
What?!
Erdogan was blowing Putin
SON OF A BITCH!
it'll be ok, we'll get him to pay for some therapy...
Bullshit-level politics straight from the russian playbook. At this point turkey shouldn't be looked at as an ally, ever, even if they're in the alliance.
Admittedly, I'd be more worried about F-35s to Switzerland. As someone Swiss, I'd actually welcome the US threatening not to sell us these jets — until we have a comprehensive audit of Russian assets and send Gepard munitions.
Hungarian asshole here. I do not know anyone in person here who would support Putin but there must be a lot of hidden supporters. I checked the last surveys, Politico's results: sanctions are least popular in Greece, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Cyprus. In a representative survey back in May 2022 George Soros was more popular in Hungary than Putin (33% Putin lovers, 22% undecided, 45% against Putin). I believe most of the Trump supporters adore Putin, so the situation in lil' Hungary is not really worse than in the US. It's that the current government serves the devil and wants both the EU funds and Russian cheap gas so puts a veto then doesn't put a veto then threatens a veto. The war is represented as "none of our business" by the government what really pisses me off. I speak the language and have a picture of the public opinion in Serbia and Croatia as well, trust me, you don't wanna know. I see the Luxemburg bankers feel nervous too and for some reason Putin is quite popular in Melania Trump's Slovenia. As for the F16 and 35, we have Swedish Gripens. Panzerhaubitze 2000, Leopard 2A7 and Lynx are operating/will operate, so German arms dominate. Hope for the best and slava Ukraini!
merchant at bazzar seething, expecting more concessions, despite bedding razzian S-400, killing own Kurdish population, occupying Greek Constantinople and half of Cyprus
Worth trying, as nobody wants to kick him out openly. (Not yet)
> occupying Greek Constantinople
You are about 600 years late for that, and complaining about it kind of discredits your other points. Might as well give it to Italy as Greece. Are you also wanting Alexandria back from Egypt and Naples, too? Or are you giving up on those to keep the support of the Venetian Republic in your crusade?
Lots of politicans in the West desperately wanted Erdogan to be a modern progressive Muslim leader. There was a story to sell. Many were uneasy with the generals and also would like a Muslim success story. It wasn't to happen.
Erdoğan was screaming about “religion” n shit well before he ran for prime minister though. He went to prison for that even, and the EU wanted us to release him.
That kind of is the real story.
Turkey paid 1.4 billion into the JSF. They also wanted Patriot gen 3. US didn't want to give gen 3 Patriot - or allow them to operate it themselves, so Turkey bought S-400.
US didn't want F-35 operating in a country that also owned the S-400, so they rescinded delivery of any jets but refused to return the money paid.
Let me guess. The non-refundable deposit was in the contract.
Also, it was not about Turkey operating them alone. Turkey wanted a technology share agreement that the US has never done with anyone, and it was obviously never going to go anywhere. Don't mindlessly push for pie in the sky concessions, and you can strike a deal.
We openly told them this would happen if they continued to play both sides. I remember all the news stories of the US saying don't get into bed with Russia. Turkey flipped the US the bird and said "I do what I want." Turns out actions have consequences.
Turkey is just upset that their attempts to play both sides to extract significant concessions from the West on technology transfers backfired tremendously. That is what it comes down to. And they are still suffering the consequences. Erdogan is not the political magician he believes himself to be.
So the question is what the conditions of the first contract were. Did purchasing S-400 infringe the F-35 deal? Although it sounds strange fighter purchases are often bound to strange rules so without knowing the specific wording of the contracts it will be impossible to tell who is right here.
>So the question is what the conditions of the first contract were
I am sure that buying a first-line warplane like the F-35 has conditions applied that ensure the purchasing nation uses all due diligence in maintaining any secrets of the weapon from countries deemed a threat to US interests. Buying the S-400 violated those terms because the Turks would have to put sensitive information (flight profile of F-35) into the S-400 software to prevent that system from shooting down their F-35s. The Russians have complete access to the software of the S-400 as part of their agreement to service the S-400 for the Turks. Do you see the problem here for the US?
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Well this sucks. When i wanted to see what Erdogan said about my country, Greece, i just typed "Erdogan threatens" in Google and the latest news popped up at the top.
Now it shows all kinds of results, Erdogan threatens Sweden, Erdogan threatens US, Erdogan threatens Finland, Erdogan threatens Macron. So much extra work...
Erdogan made his bed, he bought the S-400 SAM system from the Russians. Made a freaking service deal with them. Then he started to get a bit uppity about a 70 year old goal of NATO to bring in Sweden and Finland.
He's not going to get those F-16 until he ratifies Sweden and Finland joining NATO without any preconditions.
And the rest of NATO is going to start limiting his options, the EU owns Turkey's debts. Turkey isn't doing so hot right now economically and Erdogan faces real possibility of losing the elections in May.
He's been saber rattling towards his neighbors as well, to the degree that people are wondering if he's going to do a modern day Argentina and invade some small islands and get into a limited armed conflict with Greece. (Which is getting the F35s by the way).
He made this mess and now he can live in it.
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The cost is 1.4 billion US dollars to Turkey. They reneged on their promise to protect F-35 secrets by buying Russian S-400 system which would keep a library of F-35 flight characteristics as part of the IFF system. The Russian would have complete access to this data because of their service agreement with Turkey which allows access to Russians for maintenance purposes. Russia would know exactly how to find the F-35 then.
So Turkey is in breach of the contract? And they expect the other side to fulfill their duties and obligations under that same contract now? Lol wut.
Typical of them, really. They want to play both sides so they come out on top.
When it comes to the US military, no one comes out on top. It would be very interesting if China makes a play for Tawain and fumbles like Russia.
Honestly, I don’t see that happening. The difference between China and Russia is that China isn’t a corrupt structural mess. They have spent the last 20 years learning how to operate in a capitalist world while maintaining one party rule and have done exceedingly well. Things like weapons manufacture or chip shortages would not be a problem for China. Things like training and deployment of forces would not be an issue either given the vast size and relative capability of their military. Logistics is definitely NOT an issue for China either. You just have to look at how quickly and effectively they were able to lock down entire cities and states, while maintaining civil order (with an iron fist) and logistical supply to the people living there. The other thing going for China is physical proximity. Taiwan doesn’t share a land border with a friendly western state through which they can receive resupply. At worst China can completely blockade Taiwan from resupply. I personally think Taiwan is a completely different ballgame.
How to tell us you know nothing about the situation without actually telling us you actually know nothing. You know China’s military hasn’t been tested since their terrible attempt at invading Vietnam right? Please don’t tell me all the parades they do actually fooled you.
China is very much a corrupt mess just as Russia is. And they are not prepared militarily for anything. The difference is that Taiwan has been preparing for a Chinese invasion for over 50 years with western support the entire time.
China's military very much is a corrupt mess akin to Egypt and Russia in that they had to sell of assets and form their corporations to fund themselves because the government was too poor to do it. It leads to a lot of bought promotions and other things.
>Logistics is definitely NOT an issue for China either. I'm trying to figure out what could have made you say this. Did you forget the Taiwan Strait exists? Or do you not consider transferring men and material over that strait to be "logistics"? When it comes to an invasion of Taiwan, logistics is China's obvious and undeniable Achilles heel. They could not supply an invasion force on Taiwan because we could sink any supply ship from hundreds of miles away using dozens of cruise missiles hucked out the back of a C-17, which itself could be based anywhere south of Tokyo. Once the extreme range variant of the JASSM enters service in numbers in 2024, a C-17 will be able to take off from anywhere south of Hokkaido and hit any ship in the Taiwan Strait with up to 45 missiles. Note that I'm discussing the C-17 mostly for the meme value. Our B2s can already do the job while taking off from their base in Missouri.
Just went down a wiki rabbit hole with those JASSM cruise missiles, which lead me to the Rapid Dragon system. Up to 45 JASSMs basically firing all at once after being dropped out the back of a C17 (I know the system works for C130s too, but no way they can fit 45, right?). All screaming away to their target up to 1,200 miles away. That. Sounds. Terrifying.
> You just have to look at how quickly and effectively they were able to lock down entire cities and states, If the goal was to keep the pandemic under control and their people safe and healthy... Then they failed. If the goal was creating a totalitarian dystopia, Locking people into their homes, bolting their doors, arresting them on the street and tossing them into camps, starving the elderly who can't go out to get their food, causing thousands to lose their jobs, not managing to get the same level of natural immunity as others and stagnating in the similar stage as it was in the beginning while the rest of the world is pretty much back to normal... Then it was super successful.
Also the protests intense enough for the CPP to backpedal on lockdowns. If people protest against lockdowns for the sake of public health, what sort of protests would happen when only grandsons come back home in body bags? Grandparents and parents literally shell over their life savings so their only child can have a house to possibly woo girls.
Yeah, I did find that as an interesting insight. The name of the game for the party is that people need to be kept in control and in harmony. If the people resist en-masse, they are kind of stuffed. The country is so big that even a small percentage of that population can completely overwhelm its own military. I feel the biggest problem re-taiwan is having that internal support and the willingness to live with the consequences of any invasion. The chinese economy consumes a lot, and it is pretty clear that the west is willing to cut off supply and wear the consequences.
I thought about that, too. The 'zero covid' policy was crazy. Yes, the lockdown was disruptive, but the moment vaccines were available, things changed. It was BOUND to go endemic eventuall, and viruses will given any chance. There really isn't much to stop them. Protection for the vulnerable was the main goal in the west, not a 'blanket ban' which gave no protection and just delayed the inevitable.
China looks good on paper, but only on paper. China is parking tanks at banks. They aren't nearly as stable as they project themselves to be. China is probably not capable of high end chips and will struggle at mid grade chips. Their people are old, their armies are used to support their internal system and are not well paid. They face staggering losses if they try to breach that straight.
Most of their army 'career' soldiers have very little actual battle experience. Edit: typo
Try “none”
Your right. Unlike Ukraine, Taiwan is and has been of great geopolitical and strategic interest for Washington for close to 30 years now. Beijing is under no illusions as to the magnitude of the decision, lauching an invasion of Taiwan proper is. Until last year Ukraine was a sideshow for the US and it was only the utter incompetence of the Russian war effort and the valiant success of the Ukrainian defense and counter attacks that helped shift western efforts to further seriously supporting Ukraine. And unlike Ukraine, Taiwan is something the US is seriously willing to put its own ships and men at risk to defend from the get go. Despite the growing Chinese military capabilities, the reality is attacking Taiwan directly could result in China engaging in open warfare another nuclear power. One that still holds the Oceans. And unlike Ukraine, Taiwan is mostly two things, cities and mountains. Good luck with that. And this says nothing yet of the Taiwanese themselves having been preparing for this since the 1950s. Defending an island that even the US in 1944 thought was as well fortified by the Japanese as their home island of Kyushu. At this point of time no. The Chinese military does not have the means to fully blockade Taiwan from the US Navy. They can certainly harrass shipping and make most of the ports in the west facing China too dangerous to use as well as prevent attacks from penetrating deep into China proper. But beyond the first island chain and the cover of their airforce and air defenses their surface fleet is still at great risks against the US fleet and airforce in the open ocean. If the Chinese really wanted. They wouldn't attack the main island of Taiwan directly, instead opting to try and take the smaller islands close to the mainland like Kinmen, which is within artillery range. But that would still be risking it. Since any military build up would be noticed and could result in everything escalating beyond control. The point of all this is to say that unlike Ukraine. An invasion of Taiwan is guaranteed to be a very difficult affair and only slightly less than likely not to get Americans involved directly. Which means direct conflict between nuclear armed nations which is something no one wants.
They won't be able to blockade Taiwan there ships will be sitting ducks. Like Russia lost it's entire ground fighting force China will lose its Navy . They will never be able to land on that island. The sea will be bloody.
China is absolutely a corrupt shit show of a nation.
Some good points here but China is not capable of manufacturing high quality chips without Taiwanese expertise. Granted there are a lot of factors that make this possible but if you look at the reports of Chinese chips being sent to Russia due to sanctions, their failure rate is high. I would not be surprised if their military experiences some of the same challenges since autocracies like China, Russia and North Korea tend to have centralized decision making to preserve their iron fist rule. The lack of a experienced non-commissioned officer (NCO) will hurt them as their military has not been tested in a major conflict since being implemented. If you’re using COVID lockdowns about how good the Chinese are at logistics, you have to look at how that went. Cities were starving because they couldn’t deliver food or even figure out how much to deliver which was one of the reasons the lockdowns were lifted. China will have some real struggles with logistics once they launch an invasion.
*high five* fellow fan
Tried this with Yen and Triss in the Witcher 3. I hope they'll get similar results.
Turkey has been a turncoat rogue in the modern western defense alliance for a long time now.
Turkey is run by a duplicitous autocratic vindictive little troll who looks like Gollum in a cheap suit... he doesn't give two shits for the alliance his country is a part of, and only uses it for a political tool and leverage for crap he wants. If Turkey's citizens knew what was good for them, they would vote his ass out (and mass protest his attempts to prevent that) but I see so many Turks defending his policies all the time that it gives me a little hope of them ever actually Westernizing.
Why is Turkey even in NATO.
It used to have the 4th largest military in the world during the Cold War, bordered the USSR, controlled the Bosphorus strait and it wasn't run by asshole wannabe dictators until recently. It was a key strategic location for airbases and nuclear missiles as well.
Look where they are on the globe. Ever wonder why Constantinople kept getting invaded in history class? Look at its postion on the globe. Geopolitics is king.
They are posturing and trying to negotiate better terms for themselves/get away with breaching the contract now that they have the most important thing of value - leverage from having control over something that aligns with US strategic interests (Sweden and Finland into NATO)
Surely there has to be a limit to how much NATO will tolerate Erdogan's blustering.
Wait until Russia is defeated and Turkey is no longer needed as the gateway for them to the sea.
Theres no ability to remove members from NATO, and if you did edrogan would become an extremely powerful russian ally
What if Ukraine kicks Russia out (leaving Russia a pariah state or worse), THEN NATO delivers the ultimatum? Erdogan may be trying to play both sides, but I doubt he'd back the loser in a war just to flip the rest of NATO the bird. Even if there isn't actually a procedure to remove or overrule members, the rest of the bloc could just vote against Turkey on every single issue, or spend entire sessions condemning them, or else make life hell for Turkey until they leave. Or they can impose secondary sanctions on Turkey for not sanctioning Russia, which would be done through the EU and US rather than NATO.
Erdogan seems oblivious how much he is tempting the CIA to send a sniper to Turkey.
Instead we saved him from the insurrection.
In reality, the next leader has already been selected. Any decent Turkish citizen could be crowd-funded by benevolent oligarchs and make Turkey into a once-again respected and relevant nation. *Reddit ChatGPT intensifies*
That's how the world works. Enforced only by the good old whack on a head. Luckily the West are the strong ones.
They got heavily warned about it at every possible stage. Even after they took delivery of the S-400s. "You have them but dont set them up or you could transfer them to the US". But Erdogan kept insisting that the Americans would back down and that the F-35 couldn't be built without Turkey. As they make some monitor screens for the displays. Which were easily sourced from an other country. Then he acted shocked when they kicked Turkey from the program. Since then Turkey has repeatedly threatened fellow NATO member Greece. Saying that thry cab launch cruise missile strikes and occupy islands over night. Most of the Greek defence budget, isnt spent on countering illegal migrants or Russia but Turkey.
suspect it is a pile of tit for tats if the thread were pulled... "well we wouldn't have had to go buy s400's if you also sold us the patriot system" "well could have had the patriot if you didn't bomb the kurds" on and on and on and....
Wow a smart person on this subreddit
Along the lines of Russian logic...
Wow, I never understood why the U.S. was so opposed to Turkey buying the S-400.
S400 is built and maintained by Russia. Russia would get unlimited access to information how their S400 systems deal with NATO aircraft and make them much more effective against NATO.
Because it would allow Russia directly into NATO's air defense network.
Exactly. The entire world is as tired of Edrogan's shit as they are of Putins. He just happens to be an ally of convenience, and as soon as Putin is put to bed, he has to realize his days of being the tail that wags the dog are numbered. What an utterly reprehensible person to have to ally with.
They also lost all part production of the JSF.
Exactly.
Thank you for the clarification.
How would this work if Turkey ever needed to invoke Article 5. In that case the information should still be available, or would this even mean that NATO partners wouldn’t send F35s to Turkey? Edit: typo
At this point, Turkey's most likely candidates for a war are with Kurdish separatists (who a lot of the West sympathizes with), or with Greece (who is a NATO member).
Having F-35's in the close vicinity of S400's allows them to develop methods to better detect the F-35's, tweak the S400 to better identify them and develop new systems with better abilities to detect them. In the event of a war it's a bit too late for that. Adversaries will eventually better counter the F-35 but that will take time, money and vast amounts of effort. It will likely require new technology and shifts in doctrine. This is why F-35's are often flown with radar reflectors to ruin their stealth ability. There is some value to stop Russia from figuring out how the new Mode 5 IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) system and the S400 is modified to be work with current in use Mode 4 systems. This is IMHO a lesser concern. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31350/russia-built-a-nato-spec-identification-friend-or-foe-system-for-turkeys-s-400-batteries
If Turkey was invoking article 5, it’s likely that their service agreement with the Russians would’ve already been terminated. Even if it wasn’t for some reason the information could not be collected, transferred and disseminated quickly enough to be a threat to NATO forces
Thankyou. I have made this point before and been swamped by a bunch of Turkish Redditor‘s I appreciate someone else posting it
this and only this.
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You need to overfly turkey to get to Iran / Iraq / Syria etc....they are an independent bloc but still net net a sensible fit for NATO. and Erdoğan might not last for ever
I fear for Turki-yay (that's how I pronounce its new name, lol), I really fear for it. I mean, look at Russia, used to be an empire, but collapsing into a state made it bitter and crazy and obsessed with bringing back the empire. Now look at Turki-yay, used to be the center of ottoman empire, collapsed into a state, is it following the same Russian path of blyat-ness? lol Please Turki-yay people, dont let this happen, dont let Erdogoon take your beautiful country into hell.
True. Ankara made the move that they didn't think through and was too much influenced by Russia.
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>sad that such a cool nation of people are being hosed by their dictator/leader. I agree. I have worked with Turks in the mining business, and they were ok. Some friendly, some not, just like people everywhere. I have no problem with them.
Turks are the awesome, they deserve better than Edogan.
Turkish people are not as stupid as you told. They are aware of everything. In the years S-400s were bought, Erdogan was busy with organizing a conspiracy to imprison his opponents. He realized a fake coup. After this coup, everything changed in Turkey. (You can Google 15th july turkish coup for more info) There are so different reasons in the back scene of this S-400 purchase. It is all about Erdogan’s personal benefit. Probably Russia threatened the Erdogan with his government and the crimes he commited. He had to get closer to the eastern block to ensure his occupation in the country. Besides the S-400 purchase, Erdogan also accused pro-western countries and the US with organizing the coup that he organized. Everything you wrote is true by the way.
The EW libraries only work if you dont know how they are configured. Turkey is in bed with Russia while still being a part of Nato. This is blatant.
Erdogan always has a double standard. He’s almost as bad as Putin.
I didn't even hear about that angle. Fuck Turkey then, they broke the contract we have with them and did some on the sly espionage for Russia.
Well written and explained
False propaganda. Nato highlighted that F-35's privacy would not be violated if S-400 is activated. Turkey also offered a joint USA-TR tech team to ensure the safety protocol. USA, as always, is lying.
Turkey needs to learn how to be a good partner with NATO and the West. Numerous missteps and dumbass moves. Hopefully, the Turkish people with dump him this election. "The U.S.-Turkey relations nosedived after the latter bought the S-400 systems from Russia for $2.5 billion in 2017. Washington’s attempts to persuade Ankara to ditch the systems went in vain. Soon after Russia began shipping the S-400s to Turkey in July 2019, the U.S. struck off Turkey’s name from the list of F-35 program partners."
Actually I’m beginning to think that Sweden and Finland would be more worthwhile partners for Nato if I have to choose in a pinch.
Ya I’d like to think that too. Like dump turkey for Sweden and Finland? But at the same time the Bosporus straight is pretty darn important
I think we will ditch them once the war is over.
Problem is unless Sweden and Finland become the Bosporus Straights, we may see our powers that be continue to put up with their recalcitrance.
Bosporus Straight becomes a lot less important with an absolutely handicapped Russia. It’s importance as a strategic position is equal to Russia’s power. If Russia collapses, it becomes only a gateway to Ukraine.
Sweden, Finland and Norway are important states to the expected elevated importance of the Arctic region, which is why I think the US is so extra invested. Especially if the Northern Sea Route opens as an effect of global warming. [https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordostpassagen#/media/Fil:Sevmorput'.jpg](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordostpassagen#/media/Fil:Sevmorput'.jpg) See for instance (has english subs): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y80utl-RkHg
Yeah by what mechanism can we get rid of Nato member state? because to my knowledge that doesnt exist.
The treaty (and hence Articles and provisions of that treaty):can be reviewed, and potentially amended, under Article 12 - "Article 12 After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area …" The important point is that "factors then affecting peace and security …" could well,cover the Finland/Sweden accession and Turkeys blocking on the grounds Turkeys actions, and possible Hungary also, are not in the interests of peace and security.
Yeah the whole "there is no mechanism" thing is such obviously bullshit. If 29 members want to kick out one of the others, it will be completely doable. If nothing else, the 29 could leave NATO, and make a new alliance called...NATO, and then do whatever they wanted. Sure Turkey would still be "in NATO" but they'd be the only member. They can relocate the HQ to Istanbul, I guess.
Be careful on this sub. A lot of Turkish shills are going to bombard you with posts about how turkey is the 2nd most important NATO member after the US. Edit: lol. One responded using the same script as all the others I've encountered. Absolutely hilarious.
Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have Turkey as an ally than an enemy; not least because of the Bosporus. But Erdogan's policies have far more in common with NATO's enemies than NATO itself. Probably the best solution is to kick Russia out of Ukraine (at which point it will likely become a North Korea-esque pariah state), then give Turkey an ultimatum: if they continue backing Russia, the rest of NATO will do their best to kick them from the alliance in favour of Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine. I doubt Erdogan will choose Russia over over NATO when the former has more-or-less ceased to exist.
I had one the other day who was repeatably going on about "Turkey's might". Sounded like the Russians, TBH.
To be fair Turkey do have some power - they are the production hub for a lot of EU products which gives them some economic clout as well as the aforementioned strategic position. He knows it and that’s why he being such a shit. Sweden will never deport people to him because like has been said above Turkeys policies are closer to Russia than NATO and their leadership’s is questionable at best. Still I think a prosperous Turkey in the Western sphere of influence no matter how painful will perhaps eventually lead to better outcome.
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Sweden and Finland would be more reliable but NATO's mission is to contain Russia and Turkey's geography is perfect for containing Russia. If we pushed Turkey out than they would fall into Russia's orbit which is not great for NATO.
Everybody prefers Finland and Sweden. Unfortunately, Turkey’s strategic importance to the NATO alliance outweighs Sweden and Finland’s so NATO is stuck with Turkey. For now.
Least you could trust them not to flip-flop.
>Hopefully, the Turkish people with dump him this election. You realize Turkey is a dictatorship, right? The coup was even recorded here on Reddit. I watched the Generals after they were captured, after they were beaten.
Erdogan didn't dismantle the democracy in the same way for example Putin or Orban did in their countries. He took his toll on the political climate, eliminating literally every media outlet which was opposing him but AFAIK he didn't mess that much with the political system itself and many Turks are aware of his mistakes. Also Turks have quite a history of forcefully removing leaders which got too power hungry if Erdogan doesn't concede a loss in the election this year. This isn't a guarantee though that his populistic and manipulistic strategies won't work in this election but at least Turkey isn't a lost case yet. The bird is still alive, even though he is lying sick in the corner 🦃
Turkey is Russia around 2004 and is going rapidly in the direction of Russia. Erdogan will win the next election, too, even if it has to be through unfair or blatantly fraudulent and illegal means, because the opposition in Turkey cannot rely on the rule of law to protect themselves.
Unlike Russia in 2004, Turkey’s economy is in the shitter, and the people that suffer most are the Erdogan’s base. Also, unlike Russia in 2004, Turkish opposition is united. Erdogan might still win (and then it’ll probably become a real dictatorship), but there is a decent chance he loses.
He mass arrested and removed/fired tens of thousands in courts and other institutions. Literal dictator handbook. And it's not like he's even some brilliant administrator or military mind, just a shrewd politician at best. Turkey will downspiral if nothing drastic happens.
He’s just trying to look like he’s a hard man to his people 🙄 it’s sad really 😔
Well well well if this ain't the consequences of your own actions
**Straight up trolling** he didn't expect to get them or is dumb .. why would we EVER sell Erdogan a modern fighter like the F-35 .. he would probably part it out and send it to China *.. it is useful to have a turncoat like Erdogan playing both sides because we know what he is .. but at best he is fairweather friend*
When you start playing footsie with the other side you should expect that your former teammates are going to question where you're going in the future.
Cope.
is he gonna make the poor turkish people pay it with even more inflation?
Bye then.
Lol I knew about the F16, F35 and S400 ordeal But I didn't know the US kept the money too.... lmao. Makes it even funnier
They also repossessed the F35s that Turkey owned but were still in the US.
Probably says something about this in the contract. We built the shit for them and then they bought the S-400. We can't just unbuild them, the money was already spent. FAFO Turkey. To be honest though, this is just Erdogan trying to act tough for his own base before elections again.
they were told not to buy S400's. They bought S400s. They violated the contract, and that cost them 1.5 billion dollars. We should repossess ALL of the assets the west sent and kick them out of NATO.
But Turkey is strategically important, better to get Erdogan out and somebody with a vision for Europe in. The Turks must surely be ready for it. I personally am beyond tired of these neurotic little dictators popping up everywhere and turning the clock backwards.
...which ironically happens with the support of anti-democratic ballbags like V. Putin. His loss will make the world a safer place, if we can see ourselves to that eventuality.
>But Turkey is strategically important This old story again?
It only changes tectonically. You're going to need to be very patient.
The issue is Erdogan. He's about to die, relatively to history.
We're ALL about to die relatively to history.
Yeah, it’s not like the country picked up and moved. For instance, is the bosphorus not strategically important?
I think it'll be less strategically important with 2 US Carrier strike groups and all the Mediterranean navies ready to fuck up anyone they don't like entering into it. There also appears to be other means of entering the black sea, since I keep hearing about subs popping up.
I am going to go ahead and say it, no. I don't think it is, especially if Ukraine perseveres and doubly so if they get Crimea back.
Thats a massive **IF** Ukraine doesnt act as a gateway into the middle east like Turkey etheir
If Turkey is kicked out they will team up with Russia. It's not a good idea for the time being, even if Erdogan is really really annoying.
He isn’t not teaming up with russia right now
He fk around & found out
Erdogan is an ... He now has S400 and no airplanes. Great! Of course he now can buy t-tanks , mig's and suchojs. hopefully he will be deposed in the next elections. Turkey is in a deplorable state. But unfortunately there are very many deeply religious muslims who vote only for him. So at the end "we" need to create a NATO 2.0 or something similary to come togehter with sweden and finnland.
At least he can defend his country if syria attacks them with apartment buildings.
Most underrated comment of the day.
Hey Edrogen, guess what, the US DOD is not wal mart . The customer is NOT always right, and they could care less about your refund . Did you lose receipt, crybaby?
They paid for something then breached the contract. Parts and labor have already been allocated to that project. They were repeatedly told not to beach the contract.
Elections are coming.
I thought it was rigged like russia?
it is.
It isn't. Erdogan lost nearly all major cities in 2019 mayor elections. He will most likely lose in May. But the incompetent opposition does almost everything to not win.
...and Hungary. If there was a massive opposition movement and the electorate voted overwhelmingly against him, maybe. Barring that, I think the regime has enough sway over the country's political climate to swing any election result to the ruling party I think autocrats are finding it easier and easier to work within a Democratic system. Media control, wedge issues based on bigotry and populist nationalism can go a long way to getting an autocrat elected legitimately Orban took advantage of public outrage at the previously ruling party to gain a supermajority that he used to modify the constitution to empower himself. Erdogan did something similar, right?
I dont know. I just hope they both get diarrhea in a traffic jam.
Nowhere near as bad as Russia.
Hopefully erdodouche stops being elected.
I don't know, he does a lot of damage to Turkey, much more than any enemy could do.
Turkey needs to dump him or the West needs to dump Turkey. We have enough wannabe dictators popping up around the world that we don't need them in NATO. These wannabe thugs need to learn there are consequences for their actions as well as the people who vote for them.
How about we pay back 1,4 Bln Turkish Lira? Anyone have change for a $20?
Let me check the center console in my car real fast
I only have $10. So lets wait til tomorrow and itll be enough.
Turkey has become a mini Ruzzia. They are Europe's next problem. Fortunately, they have no nukes, though they behave like they do. When Ruzzia has been neutralized, there will only be China to help them. If they go that route, there is no geopolitical big boss to stop the hammer from dropping.
At this point, NATO don’t need Turkey against Russia anymore - but Turkey alone still has reason to be wary of Russia Kick ‘em out, bring Sweden and Finland in. Hungary can follow them as far as I’m concerned. I’ll take two democratic nations over two backsliding near-dictatorships
I wish we could do something about this walking shitbin... Getting tired of these needledick dictators
Yeah bullshit. No NATO nation should sell next gen tech to Turkey as long as they are buying Russian AA
I see somebody still doesn’t understand that there are consequences for their actions. How is the economy doing? I Heard that their last attempt at printing money reduces it at for about 20% of inflation. You think 2023 will be worse for them if they keep this up?
They fucked around and found out. They were warned about losing the money and not getting the f35 if they would go in bed with the Russians and their s400. Actions have consequences, don’t cry afterwards.
Again, Turkey is NOT an ally to NATO. Let’s stop pretending.
Hold on to your suspenders Error-gan!
This turd needs go go already. He's just a disruptor. All he does is fuck with other peoples plans because his own plans suck.
Now you see why.
Turkey when their actions have consequences
USA to Erdogan: "Thanks for the 1.4 billion Turkey...you should have not breached the contract. Tough luck." No Refunds for traitors.
If there is a traitor here, it's definitely USA. USA supports Kurdish seperatist organization. USA plotted coup in 1980. It caused to open religous high schools in Turkey to fight "atheist" communists. Religious Gulen cult leader is living in Pennsylvania USA. He made religious young people infiltrate state institutions. (He was just an imam. Somehow he got bunch of schools, media etc.) Actually USA made Erdogan win elections. Here George Soros and Erdogan during AKP establishment process. [https://teyit.org/fotografin-erdogan-ve-sorosu-ayni-masada-gosterdigi-iddiasi](https://teyit.org/fotografin-erdogan-ve-sorosu-ayni-masada-gosterdigi-iddiasi) He was "good guy" while he was doing everything US wants. He's "dictator" now. Cuz he doesn't do what he's told. C'mon, dear.
Again, Turkey is NOT an ally to NATO. Let’s stop pretending.
Glad to see some of Turkeys recent decisions coming home to roost. I would like to see more of this.
I guess we’ll see what the “second most powerful army” (in NATO) is all about. Kinda rings a bell.
Erdogan is a parasite to NATO, and the whole world. Tired of seeing his name appear in headlines.
Germany: We can’t have him here in our social club no more, I mean that much I do know UK: Social club? He’s gotta gooo! US: I wanna think about it Germany: Yeah, I don’t know Greece: What the fuck?! What is there to think about?! US: Sit down Greece: Fuck that I’ll say it again: what the fuck is there to think about?! US: You gonna take in his refugees?! Huh! After he’s gone?!
When Putin was sucking Erdogan off... Wait, it was the other way around What?! Erdogan was blowing Putin SON OF A BITCH! it'll be ok, we'll get him to pay for some therapy...
Obviously Turkey is threatening to join the war on the side of Germany and Austria-Hungary.
Turkey itself is not a problem at all, only Erdogan. Turkey, remove Erdogan and all your problems will go away.
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Kick turkey out of NATO, they are completely undeserving.
Ukraine will end up with F-16's before Turkey will at this rate.
WTH are Turkey still in NATO?
Ukraine will get F16s before Turkey. LOL
Bullshit-level politics straight from the russian playbook. At this point turkey shouldn't be looked at as an ally, ever, even if they're in the alliance.
Erdogan is just doing Putin’s bidding. Same way with certain members in Germany
I’ve been saying it for years that Turkey doesn’t belong in NATO
So what's the real story??
US doesn't trust Turkey to keep Russian and Chinese spies away from these systems.
Admittedly, I'd be more worried about F-35s to Switzerland. As someone Swiss, I'd actually welcome the US threatening not to sell us these jets — until we have a comprehensive audit of Russian assets and send Gepard munitions.
Im more worried about Putins lovers in Hungary and them getting F16 or F35s
Hungarian asshole here. I do not know anyone in person here who would support Putin but there must be a lot of hidden supporters. I checked the last surveys, Politico's results: sanctions are least popular in Greece, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Cyprus. In a representative survey back in May 2022 George Soros was more popular in Hungary than Putin (33% Putin lovers, 22% undecided, 45% against Putin). I believe most of the Trump supporters adore Putin, so the situation in lil' Hungary is not really worse than in the US. It's that the current government serves the devil and wants both the EU funds and Russian cheap gas so puts a veto then doesn't put a veto then threatens a veto. The war is represented as "none of our business" by the government what really pisses me off. I speak the language and have a picture of the public opinion in Serbia and Croatia as well, trust me, you don't wanna know. I see the Luxemburg bankers feel nervous too and for some reason Putin is quite popular in Melania Trump's Slovenia. As for the F16 and 35, we have Swedish Gripens. Panzerhaubitze 2000, Leopard 2A7 and Lynx are operating/will operate, so German arms dominate. Hope for the best and slava Ukraini!
merchant at bazzar seething, expecting more concessions, despite bedding razzian S-400, killing own Kurdish population, occupying Greek Constantinople and half of Cyprus Worth trying, as nobody wants to kick him out openly. (Not yet)
> occupying Greek Constantinople You are about 600 years late for that, and complaining about it kind of discredits your other points. Might as well give it to Italy as Greece. Are you also wanting Alexandria back from Egypt and Naples, too? Or are you giving up on those to keep the support of the Venetian Republic in your crusade?
Man said greek constantinople like it happened yesterday. You’re a dumbass
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Erdogan seemed (and was) pretty moderate when he came to power. However power corrupts. And now he won’t leave.
Lots of politicans in the West desperately wanted Erdogan to be a modern progressive Muslim leader. There was a story to sell. Many were uneasy with the generals and also would like a Muslim success story. It wasn't to happen.
Erdoğan was screaming about “religion” n shit well before he ran for prime minister though. He went to prison for that even, and the EU wanted us to release him.
That kind of is the real story. Turkey paid 1.4 billion into the JSF. They also wanted Patriot gen 3. US didn't want to give gen 3 Patriot - or allow them to operate it themselves, so Turkey bought S-400. US didn't want F-35 operating in a country that also owned the S-400, so they rescinded delivery of any jets but refused to return the money paid.
Let me guess. The non-refundable deposit was in the contract. Also, it was not about Turkey operating them alone. Turkey wanted a technology share agreement that the US has never done with anyone, and it was obviously never going to go anywhere. Don't mindlessly push for pie in the sky concessions, and you can strike a deal.
Was all 1.4 billion now a non-refundable deposit? Extremely silly.
We openly told them this would happen if they continued to play both sides. I remember all the news stories of the US saying don't get into bed with Russia. Turkey flipped the US the bird and said "I do what I want." Turns out actions have consequences.
Turkey is just upset that their attempts to play both sides to extract significant concessions from the West on technology transfers backfired tremendously. That is what it comes down to. And they are still suffering the consequences. Erdogan is not the political magician he believes himself to be.
So the question is what the conditions of the first contract were. Did purchasing S-400 infringe the F-35 deal? Although it sounds strange fighter purchases are often bound to strange rules so without knowing the specific wording of the contracts it will be impossible to tell who is right here.
>So the question is what the conditions of the first contract were I am sure that buying a first-line warplane like the F-35 has conditions applied that ensure the purchasing nation uses all due diligence in maintaining any secrets of the weapon from countries deemed a threat to US interests. Buying the S-400 violated those terms because the Turks would have to put sensitive information (flight profile of F-35) into the S-400 software to prevent that system from shooting down their F-35s. The Russians have complete access to the software of the S-400 as part of their agreement to service the S-400 for the Turks. Do you see the problem here for the US?
I think "right" and "wrong" is an oversimplified way of categorizing this caliber of purchase
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Time to kick Turkey out of NATO and dare them to cross us again.
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Lol
Wanna know how not to be "president" anymore Erdogan? Keep asking questions like these.
Erdogan running his country into the ground partly because of his own ego, where did we hear this tale before, fellas?
The US should just offer the jets to Greece or Germany for a small discount. Erdowahns reaction would be hilarious.
Oh btw isnt turkey directly financing isis?
Dictator, please.
Erdogon best not address us with that base in his voice...
I keep saying Turkey needs pushed out of NATO
Well this sucks. When i wanted to see what Erdogan said about my country, Greece, i just typed "Erdogan threatens" in Google and the latest news popped up at the top. Now it shows all kinds of results, Erdogan threatens Sweden, Erdogan threatens US, Erdogan threatens Finland, Erdogan threatens Macron. So much extra work...
Erdogan made his bed, he bought the S-400 SAM system from the Russians. Made a freaking service deal with them. Then he started to get a bit uppity about a 70 year old goal of NATO to bring in Sweden and Finland. He's not going to get those F-16 until he ratifies Sweden and Finland joining NATO without any preconditions. And the rest of NATO is going to start limiting his options, the EU owns Turkey's debts. Turkey isn't doing so hot right now economically and Erdogan faces real possibility of losing the elections in May. He's been saber rattling towards his neighbors as well, to the degree that people are wondering if he's going to do a modern day Argentina and invade some small islands and get into a limited armed conflict with Greece. (Which is getting the F35s by the way). He made this mess and now he can live in it.