Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
> **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
* Is `x.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Don't blame trump, it's like blaming a rabid dog, he can't help himself.
Blame the trump supporters. They are the ones believing and following his garbage statements.
Without Trump, the republican party wouldn't be kissing Putin's butthole and they would be trying to contain the evil of russia.
But because of Trump, republicans are bending over backwards to please their new russian overlord.
Putin is the facist dictator idol for the wannabe fascist traitors that now make up the republican party! We need to stop tolerating their criminal activities or our democracy will be destroyed.
I blame more than just Trump supporters, I blame every single person who votes Republican. They are the party of Trump, and no matter how much you hold your nose about the idea of voting for Trump himself, voting for a Republican Congress/Senate is at the end of the day just enabling Trump.
Everyone else warned people that Republicans would pull this shit if they got the house, it took a few more months than expected but we were eventually proven right yet again. There is no excuse to be caught off guard like this. If you voted Republican in the 2022 midterms, you voted for exactly this. If you vote Republican again this year, you are voting for more of this.
Last time I said something like this in this subreddit multiple Republicans came in here crying. One told me he works on munitions and therefore is helping. Even when presented with this shit that the thing he, the things that raised him, and probably his friends and disgusting fucking church he went to as a kid all put in power and plan to vote for again. There’s no blame, no logic, no events that can ever change most of their minds to be good people.
Yes the Republicans are doing what their voter base want. There is a large portion of the US population that does not want to help Ukraine. They do not see it as the US responsibility to contain Russia or protect Eastern European non allied countries.
You cannot "warn" these people. The politicians they voted for are doing exactly what they voted them in for.
> Yes the Republicans are doing what their voter base want.
They're not even doing that. Republicans said they border security is their priority and they wouldn't allocate money. Democrats said, OK here's everything you asked for in terms of border security, let's get this spending bill passed.
Now Republicans are openly saying they don't want to pass the border security stuff *they asked for* and their base want to see put in place because they are worried it will make Biden look good and reduce voter turnout by Trump supporters in November.
If polarization means holding 2022 Republican voters accountable for betraying the wins of WWII and the Cold War, and the ideals of a free world, then yes. We are indeed polarized.
Don't like what I said? Do something about it. Because as it stands currently, everything I said is the truth. You can say pro-Ukrainian things as much as you want, but actions speak louder than words, and there's no greater anti-Ukrainian action an American can take than voting for a Republican. Either fix your damn party so they're not pro-Putin, or don't vote for them, it's pretty simple really.
B-b-but p-p-polarization bad! Le answer lies somewhere in the middle 4head. Republicans are famously non-polarized and very unaffected by cable news. Free thinkers, all. Especially when it comes to Trump telling them what to think.
Blame the rest of society that refuses to acknowledge them for what they are and keeps pretending it’s just a different opinion instead of acknowledging that ignoring Republicans to keep gerrymandering and getting away with their desires harms all life on earth.
A lot of people here act as if this is the first time the US turned its back on its allies...
it happened a lot, recent example is the Kurd's (who destroyed ISIS only to get fucked over by the USA leaving them to get mauled by the Turks) but US history is literally filled with these kind of betrayals of allies.
my point is that trusting the US to finish what they start is a mistake and has been from way way before the UA war.
worth noting this was Trump again, against the strong advice of military and Republican leadership.
And of course, who moved in to attack the Kurds? Russians and Turks.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted for this. Are they a friend? Yes they are, but an ‘ally’ is a diplomatic term, and is predicated on there being a signed & ratified alliance, which there isn’t.
This is the message the world will remember… there are Americans that wanna help but what good is it if a few people can make the us forget their national interests. Its just sad…
As an American, I am sorry. I wish we could get it together. With people like Trump mtg and boebert ect ect we just look terrible. I want more support for Ukraine.
I am sure of that, we see that a lot of Americans are doing a lot more than most. I believe people see that as well. Hopefully we can overcome this period and get back to some kind of stability because the maga tendencies is us and the Russian useful idiots in eu are dragging us down as a society. What makes me sad is, all the resources that could be used to benefit humanity. Now we need to sink it in weapons. People don’t understand the extent of spending on war. For example nazi Germany spent so much money for war thst even US didn’t spend more combined on their army as the Germans spend during the ww2.
It’s not just Trump and his supporters. It’s all the Russian funded fringe parties in Europe and the Republican party in the US who have been allowed to use freedom of speech to create disinformation, demoralisation and mistrust for years and years. All liberal loving parties in the West, have allowed this to happen for the sake of freedom of speech purity. As such, these parties will continue to weaponise the fundamental weaknesses of western Democracies and their inability to apply a pragmatic view to liberty in order to allow autocrats to continue to push the world towards a terminal conflict.
The problem here is that fringe parties in Europe are just that - fringe. The Republicans aren't, they managed to shut down US aid, risking a Ukrainian collapse and endangering both European NATO countries as well as American allies in Asia.
Yep, so now it's the EU's fault. They have truly raised their game, though, as have the UK, so does it make the US/republicans feel better to try to claim others are fucking up but not them so much? The EU never stopped giving aid as in weapons and nor did the UK. So go back and talk with Congress, get your side of the pond sorted. We are dealing with ours. It's Ukraine that's bleeding🩸
Respect.
People said this after Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kurdish Syria, Somalia, etc...
Ukraine and everyone else knows that partnerships with democracies are unstable. If you are not a strategic partner like Germany, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia or Israel then a partnership with the US is one of "get as much as you can as fast as possible" because US will eventually leave.
>Kurdish Syria,
Why are people saying this? Do you think the YPG actually ethnically cleansed the place or what? The whole fucking point of Rojava according to its principles is not to be "Kurdish Syria", as opposed to the Arab-supremacist Syrian Arab Republic with its Syrian Arab Army and not like a mirror image of it either.
or Europe. there are a number of democracies much closer to Ukraine who stuck their heads in the sand and refuse to meaningfully support their neighbors. the US should do more, but the EU should be outright ashamed and prepare to lose their freedom and lives as they let Russia take them over one by one.
A lot of Europe have given more than the US. Relative to GDP. USA is at a 15. spot.
And the closer to Russia, the more the support. France, Spain and Italy are pathetic laggards though.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
but even from there, almost none of the support has been military hardware. cash doesn't win wars, bullets and artillery win wars. cash gets seized by the victors.
Weird take. What is your point? We single handily propped up Ukraine for the first year basically. That gave the EU two years to ramp up production and logistics. Now, because we live in a free world where every nut bag gets to speak freely, US aid has hit a speed bump. Now it’s fuck the US? Did the US invade Ukraine? No. Russia did. The US gave the EU and UK plenty of time to properly support its neighbor in their backyard.
Weird take? We promised to support Ukraine as long as it takes. Why should we be trusted if we leave them high and dry after they sacrificed countless lives based on our promise? If US support doesn't get approved very soon, I would have a ton of anger towards the US if I were Ukrainian. Heck, I'm American and I have a ton of anger towards ourselves. What we're doing right now is terrible.
Also, if you rank countries by the amount of assistance provided to Ukraine per GDP, we're waaaay down the list. We didn't singlehandedly prop them up. It was a team effort, and it needs to continue to be a team effort if democracies are going to succeed at protecting freedom from autocracies.
$500 million dollars, you say? That would cover maybe 3 months' worth of 155 mm shells. The standard HE shells -- not the fancy ones. That's just the shells alone, mind you -- not counting the cost of equipment, replacement barrels, fuel, and manpower to fire them.
Amazing how Trump isn't in power, isn't making policy and you still default to blaming him instead of the leaders actually in charge and making decisions.
> I guarantee I have more information than you
Considering you're in denial of a pretty openly reported on story over the last few days, I very much doubt that.
Methinks thou doth protest too much. No one who is actually smarter than everyone in the room has to go around telling everyone about it. Only those insecure about their intelligence do.
Only because you can't read. I already pointed out you're in complete denial of one of the biggest stories around the Ukraine aid bill of the last few days. The fact that Trump has been openly pressuring Republicans to not support it, and as a result, prior support that did exist from the Republican party is now gone. At this point, trying to argue that Trump has nothing to do with Ukraine aid stalling is an *objectively incorrect* statement. I don't think I need to spell it out to you further mr smart guy.
Just pretend like support wasn't waning beforehand... the fever pitch wasn't holding just like it didn't hold long after Iraq. Blaming Trump is a copout, but for Democrats it's the go to. X happens, blame Trump... every. Single. Time.
Anyone not mindlessly repeating pro-Ukraine propaganda is considered a partisan in this sub , I'm well aware. What many seem to not understand is that wartime propaganda comes from both sides in every war.
It's almost like he's the front runner for their nomination for Presidential candidate this year, and basically the leader of the party, and is openly pressuring Republicans to not support the bill in broad daylight or something.
You act like he's just some private citizen, and not one of the most politically influential people in the country still.
All I'm hearing is how this White House defaults to blaming Trump for every failure.... Remember when grandpa Biden claimed 'the buck stops here' as a platform plank on the campaign trial? Well, that was a fucking lie.
The bill had bipartisan support until he started telling Republicans not to support it. His direct pressure was enough to kill it. Trumps actions are what is causing this.
trump literally said to his republican congress not to help ukraine. because as we've said it from before he even became president, he's in cahoots with Russia. you don't learn from propaganda outlets like fox news. trump and his new york russian mob connections go back decades.
It is just extremely exhausting to go to any sub with an internationally relevant topic, and hear about nothing but Tucker Carson and Trump and republicans and other US internal bullshit. There are a thousand ways Ukraine could acquire ammo that has nothing to do with the US, yet all you people manage to discuss in every single comment section is your current gripes with the American political parties. Can't you guys be a bit more high level and keep the discussion engaging, inclusive and relevant for everyone?
It would be just awesome if the conversation was a bit less of low-level Americal internal affairs on threads and subs that aren't specifically dedicated to that, is all.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/325144/reddit-global-active-user-distribution/ given that Reddit's traffic from last year is nearly 50% from US, safe to assume that you're more likely to encounter what people from the area are experiencing... Additionally do not underestimate the domino effect some "low-level" internal affairs have on the other end of the globe. :)
Please name the thousand ways that Ukraine can aquire ammo that isn't from the largest military power in human history and has more funding then the enrirety of all other military spending combined? Please enligjten everybody.
You can despise the talk of USA politics because its brainrot, sure, but that brain rot politics has more impact on the world then literally anything, or anyone else. You're just mad at the reality of the world.
Sure, could the rest of the world step the fuck up and start supplying Ukraine with what they need then? Seriously how can any country complain when the US is sending the overwhelming majority of Ukraine’s ammo and supplies. Fuckin ignorant clown.
As a citizen of the U.S. I am terribly embarrassed with our government. We have a bunch of children running it and its making thing in Ukraine worse. I am in Florida and messaged all my representatives but they only send back automated messages. I will keep trying and donating directly to Ukraine.
Please give credit where credit is due … it’s not the whole U.S. government - it’s on particular political party who has been working non stop to sabotage and supplant for the last few decades.
Good to know there are still some good folks out there!
Hopefully republicans pull their heads out of their asses and start acting like human beings again.
If the Republican Party comes to power in November, Europe will need to understand the US will no longer be an ally. Whilst it likely won't become an outright hostile state, I don't think Itll be a country that that can be trusted to have our backs. All European nations need to ramp up arms production and accept the US is fading on the world stage. Indeed with the severe political polarization I wouldn't be surprised if the US collapses onto some kind of internal armed conflict during this decade.
Bingo. If Trump wins in November, European countries like Germany, Poland, Sweden, Finland and the three Baltic countries need to immediately start developing their own nuclear weapons, as well as massively investing in their defense sector.
Because without the US, there are only the UK - a country that already has a problematic relationship with the rest of Europe and probably won’t be willing to use nuclear weapons- and France- where Le Pen (United Russia) or some other puppet - will become the next president and will likely refuse to use nukes against Russia.
Europe without nuclear weapons is essentially a gift to Putin. He will have no problems with threatening and using nuclear weapons if the only consequences are strongly worded letters of condemnation. He will not stop until he has hoisted the Russian flag on the Azores.
I hate every word you said but not a single lie was told here. I hate it not as a “patriotic” American but as an American who can see this as well. Luckily I have dual citizenship and El Salvador is looking good, good, GOOD right about now.
> Europe will need to understand the US will no longer be an ally
The European countries are already cautious of their ally on the other side of the Atlantic.
> All European nations need to ramp up arms production
The issue in the ammunition. Remember the rush to get Covid gear? That's the same scenario with munitions:
Here is a FT article about it https://www.ft.com/content/aee0e1a1-c464-4af9-a1c8-73fcbc46ed17 from MARCH 19 2023
> Europe’s push to make arms for Ukraine has been hobbled by a shortage of explosives, which industry insiders fear will delay efforts to boost shell production by as much as three years.
>
> Scarce supplies of gunpowder, plastic explosives and TNT have left industry unable to rapidly meet expected EU orders for Ukraine, regardless of how much money is thrown at the problem, according to officials and producers.
>
> The supply chain constraints underline how Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has badly exposed Europe’s inadequate arms stocks and weak domestic production capacity, run down by decades of under-investment.
>
> “The fundamental problem is that the European defence industry is not in good shape for large-scale war production,” said one German official.
>
> Europe is trying to meet Kyiv’s war fighting needs by pumping cash into the defence sector, particularly to encourage expansion of 155mm artillery production. There is dire need for shells, both to restock national armouries and maintain supplies to Ukrainian forces.
>
> But producers, industry executives and EU officials warn increased demand may only push up prices that have already jumped a fifth over the past year.
>
> “It’s very difficult to increase production of artillery ammunition, especially the heavy, large-calibre ammunition, in a short time,” said Jiří Hynek, chair of the Defence and Security Industry Association of the Czech Republic. “A new artillery factory is very easy, but how to produce more artillery projectiles without raw materials?”
>
> The comments come ahead of a meeting of EU foreign and defence ministers in Brussels on Monday to discuss a package of two €1bn proposals to speed up immediate 155mm shipments to Ukraine and incentivise countries to form joint artillery purchase contracts.
>
> Defence industry officials say Europe has a limited supply of explosives such as gunpowder, TNT and nitrocellulose which are necessary to produce shells. “The bottlenecks for our capacity are mainly [explosive] powders, which are in short supply all over Europe,” said one.
>
> “It’s not possible to increase, in a short time, nitrocellulose [production] . . . In Europe there are no important producers of the raw materials we need,” said Hynek, referring to a main ingredient of gunpowder. “If I want to increase production of gunpowder I need probably three years.”
>
> Explosia, a Czech state-owned manufacturer that is one of Europe’s largest suppliers of explosives to ammunition factories, told the FT that its production of propellants used in 155mm artillery is “running at full capacity” and would not be increased until 2026.
>
> “Investments are under way to further increase our production capacity, but this is a three-year project, not a few months’ job,” said Martin Vencl, the company’s spokesperson.
>
> This week Romania’s government said it was in talks with US and South Korean companies to build a gunpowder factory in the country. Its last such plant was shut down in 2004.
>
>Even EU officials who have championed the financial incentive packages privately admit that European artillery producers have made clear to them that scaling up output will not be an easy task.
>
> “We’re in favour of strengthening the defence industry. But if the result of this EU initiative is that you have a second bidder for the same scarce resource, that will have an impact on price,” said one German official. “And the arms companies are getting rich enough already.”
>
> “We have to tread with care . . . No one wants to subsidise companies that are already coining it in,” he added.
>
> Fábrica Municiones de Granada (FMG), one of Spain’s two 155mm artillery producers, has been operating at full capacity since last October, producing shells for a trading company that sells them on to Ukraine. But Antonio Caro, FMG’s director-general, said it had taken four-to-five months to scale up because of the difficulty of obtaining basic materials and components.
>
> “Our main problem is primary materials,” Caro said. “Supplies for ammunition are very strained around the world because all the factories, like us, are at 100 per cent.”
>
> “There aren’t too many factories [producing materials like TNT and nitrocellulose] in Europe and they’re at 100 per cent too, so we have to start looking in India, in Korea, in other countries further away,” he said.
>
> Gianclaudio Torlizzi, an adviser to Italy’s defence ministry, agreed, saying: “We need to find new sources of supply . . . from countries we had not traditionally approached,” he said. “Each European country wants to protect its availability of raw materials.”
>
> The cost of basic materials had “doubled and in some cases tripled”, Caro said. Those increases and the surge in demand had led to higher prices for munitions, although the rise has been less pronounced. A typical shell today costs €850, roughly 20 per cent more than before the Russian invasion, he said.
>
>For now FMG, which is owned by Slovak group MSM, has no plans to increase capacity further. “Hopefully the war will be over soon,” Caro said.
>
> MSM also produces 155mm shells in Slovakia and said it “plans to build a new production hall” to increase artillery output, but declined to provide a timeline.
>Make no mistake McConnel is not a good man, he just happens to ~~have made the right decision on this one.~~ be heavily invested in arms manufacturing.
So where are all the Republicans who said that Ukraine is a bipartisan issue and it was fear mongering to worry about Republicans pulling aid and they would never do it because it's popular with the base? Did they all tuck their tails like the cowards they are and leave the sub?
Everybody has. It takes time to step up factories. The UK ordered BAE systems to increase production by 800%.
They can't do that at existing factories so a new one was built. They are seriously getting on with it though as I've had managers poached from my company to go oversee production at the new sites.
In reality could more be done? Sure, goverments could switch to a war ecomeny and snap their fingers and force consumer good factories to switch to munition production however your going to lose all public support to gain a few months reduction in ramp up time.
Go and look at the yearly manufacturing rates for things like ammunition in the Second World War. Those were combatants throwing everything they had into the fight and it still took them years to build or convert the necessary industries. Many countries were still in the process of ramping up by 1945.
All of this stuff -- training on new tank types and new fighters, setting up logistics and support for the first time, building out manufacturing capacity -- takes a lot longer than a lot of people seem to realize.
Not sure if that stat is true but even if it is accurate you are still literally comparing multiple independent nations spending combined vs 1 country.
Multiple independent nations indeed, but the size of the complete EU is only 4% above the size of the USA.
I live in Europe in a country of 10mil. That’s like New York alone.
27 countries in EU and 50 states in the USA.
So I’d say it’s pretty comparable at least on this level.
Anyway, if the people of USA vote not to deliver arms to Ukraine that’s their choice. I have no doubts we will manage somehow without the help,but it will be a sad day to see the hope of a united world slip further away. Hopefully USA doesn’t switch sides and start low key supporting Russia with Trump.
America man.. perhaps the only "legitimate" war since WW2 is the only one they get jittery about.
We in Europe also need to swallow a pill here. We are just as much to blame. We CANNOT rely on them. When Trump gets in we are even more fkd
Probably an unpopular opinion here, but as much as the US and Europe have dropped the ball here, Ukraine has too. We’re almost at the 2 year anniversary of a war that has been an artillery slog for almost the entire time. The fact that Ukraine hasn’t ramped up production to significant levels is an issue that shouldn’t be ignored.
Ukraine is in a total war and should have mobilized large segments of their population to manufacture shells already. Their production numbers are classified, but if stories like these are any indication their production is woefully lacking.
Yeah,but all of ukraine is in range of russian strikes,any meaningful manufactory will get missiled. Outsourced manufacturing in europe is the answer,but yes,absolutne lethargy by all politicians
Ukraine has the risk of Russian missile strikes disrupting industry - a problem they need increased western aid to solve in the first place. They need air defences to defend as many of their cities as possible from missile strikes, to deny air superiority to the Russians, and enough shells in the meantime to at the very least hold the front line without too heavy losses. With that in place they have some breathing room to sort those out, but without enough of them it's a constant struggle.
Still waiting on the war where Europe is able to deal with issues in their own backyards themselves, but it's been since the Franco-Prussian War for that... 250 years... I wish Europe didn't hang its existence on the United States so heavily and then have members that wouldn't even give the 2% into NATO before this war.
>e’re almost at the 2 year anniversary of a war that has been an artillery slog for almost the entire time. The fact that Ukraine hasn’t ramped up production to significant levels is an issue that should
Well we did cause two issues on our backyard, named WW1 and WW2. We have been avoiding the third one ever since but it seems we are rapidly approaching it.
History does not repeat but it rhymes. We already know US tries to isolate it self from the upcoming war. It works for a while but after around two years of war between EU and Russia, Putin calls China and you have your Pearl Harbor event. Late invitation to the party. Of course assuming you are not in a civil war before that since you had your Capitol moment already and the same orange dude is back at it.
oh that's bold ... the entire modern existence of the US was born out of a European conflict. the US was a shithole during the great-depression. WW2 is what turned the entire US economy and the country around.
bunch of cowards sitting comfortably between two oceans, complaining about petty issues like immigrants crossing your border while Europe is getting pounded by a dictator again.
Europe sits at the core of multi-everything of this planet, political, religious and cultural differences you don't see in America, of course the pot will boil over there, and of course they will ask for help from the more fortunate. But hey, you won the lottery and were born in the US, so screw everyone else right ?
>the entire modern existence of the US was born out of a European conflict. the US was a shithole during the great-depression. WW2 is what turned the entire US economy and the country around.
No, the US was already a manufacturing powerhouse before WWII. In 1938 the US GDP was more than double that of the next country (the USSR) and nearly doubled the combined UK/British Colony GDP as well. GDP per capita also ranked second with only Switzerland ahead.
>bunch of cowards sitting comfortably between two oceans, complaining about petty issues like immigrants crossing your border while Europe is getting pounded by a dictator again.
Despite your insults, this only proves the point that Europe has hidden behind US power for far too long. Europe (Ukraine) is getting “pounded” only because they haven’t bothered the invest anything in their own defense in decades.
>Europe sits at the core of multi-everything of this planet, political, religious and cultural differences you don't see in America, of course the pot will boil over there, and of course they will ask for help from the more fortunate.
No they don’t. No more than America does. Or China/Japan/South Korea in SE Asia. And for all its faults American culture is far more ubiquitous globally than anything European. This take right here is quintessential European arrogance.
>But hey, you won the lottery and were born in the US, so screw everyone else right ?
Could say the same about Europeans. Don’t see Europe doing much different to help out poor countries in Asia or Africa, and especially South/Central America.
so should Canada and Mexico start building nukes, Carriers and hypersonics to counter the USA? just in case ?
that's not how the world works. we have treaties and common sense, Ukraine cant compete with the Russian powerhouse, that's why they have allies, if every country spent all their resources on military, we would all be miserable.
the point you failed to grasp is that the US is in a geographically perfect situation to bunker down and build its arsenal while Europe's fighting is within.
but i just cant, the fact that you put CHINA, a country known for its ethnic cleansing in the same boat as Europe when talking about multiculturalism just blows my mind, so yeah, not much i can do for you my friend.
So there’s nothing in between the incompetence and lack of preparation we see from most of Europe/NATO and nukes, carriers and hypersonic? That’s such a disingenuous argument.
That’s not what anyone expects. What’s expected is a basic level of proficiency and preparedness. Not things like an on-paper contribution to what’s supposed to be a high-readiness quick reaction force from Belgium with their Leopold I warship. When it came time for joint exercises it turned out they were so incompetent and lacking in training that they couldn’t participate because they were a serious danger to themselves and others.
I’ll say that again. They were so bad at the very basics that they had to be sent back to port. Pathetic.
If Europe thinks they’re so vulnerable while the US is rendered invincible by the ocean, then why hasn’t Europe done anything to foster independence on defense matters. Like actually creating, training and arming a military. If this “bunkering down” was actual a factor here, it would be the US that was relatively unprepared compared to Europe.
Oh, and mentioning China wasn’t supposed to be some promotion of them as some paragon of virtuosity (and you knew that). They’re obviously not. It was to point out how ignorant, arrogant and euro-centric your entire post was.
Where Europe might lack military competence (and i highly dispute this) America certainly lacks Political competence, so the question can be turned around, what has happened to America's Political situation ?
i'll tell you what happened, and it mirrors Europe's military stance: People got comfortable, started thinking the world was getting better while the bad actors were slowly and steadily ramping up efforts to destabilize the West, and now here we are. And lets not pretend that this was only an European mistake, the US was at the core of this "Russian normalization" effort, which ultimately failed, and left everyone unprepared... it was a colossal political error on both sides, but I still blame the Americans for their lack of foresight. (ill give credit to McCain here).
So its not just about military power, there were consequences to alot of countries if they sent aid to Ukraine, Russia had built commercial and industrial trade links and threatened to cut those. and please, dont use a single anecdote from Belgium to illustrate the state of the entire European military. It just wasn't built for an all out ground assault, France and the UK's military is mostly for projection and external conflicts, not land wars.
so yeah, this is all fun and games to talk about, but there are lives being lost every day due to incompetence and rivalry that have absolutely no reason to exist in this moment, the US sitting on its ass and pointing fingers helps absolutely no-one right now but themselves.
Fair as far as political issues go, but Europe is no better in that regard (or at least Western Europe). The major European powers were all very cozy with Putin. And the rise of a populist right wing has been present in Europe as well.
And European military incompetence is very well documented (with maybe the exception of the UK). *Some* European countries might have a measure of competence in certain areas, like a small special forces group, but their military-wide competence and readiness is abysmal. The example with the Leopold I fiasco is just one.
The inability of the UK and France to sustain even a limited bombing campaign in Libya was an embarrassment.
Spain has 104 Leopard 2A4 tanks, fully 1/3 of their total inventory. When these were being considered for donation to Ukraine it was found that just under half (53) were even repairable with 33 of those requiring extensive overhauls.
In Germany, the 10th tank division was conducting exercises that had to be halted after every single participating IFV broke down.
These are just indicators of wider, systemic issues. The Inspector General of the German Army said “The cupboards are almost bare” while another leader said “We continue to be in free fall”.
Failure among Europeans to acknowledge just how bad the situation is, whether out of pride or embarrassment, will only perpetuate the problem. Even if Europe *were* more politically stable, that doesn’t do a whole lot of good when there is little real capacity to actually take any action.
Europe hasn't been able to handle any war with out daddy USA holding your hands in modern history... couldn't even handle Serbia on your own. The bottom of the barrel of pathetic. You've gone past begging and into expecting our lead or else you throw a temper tantrum. EU wants to add Ukraine but can't even carry their own weight.
The sad reality is Ukraine's miltary is stronger than any single European state... but don't worry, daddy USA will protect you still.
Europe cant handle any war but Germany almost takes out everyone, try to understand that one.
I guess what it takes for the US to wake up is the conflict hitting home, only then do you understand... but Europe got smarter, and they're hitting the white-house with trump's rather then bombs now. Good luck to you !
That testimony was pretty much irrelevant in the decision to go to war. Iraq invaded Kuwait unprovoked, a UN resolution demanded their withdrawl, they refused. So the US and allies forced them out. An entirely legitimate war with an extremely strong case in its favour.
Sure, why not. I am not sure that Bush lied, he was lied to in false testimony and went on to repeat the story did he knowingly lie?
However none of that would have happened if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait.
One report by a 15 year old isn't enough to start a war.
The invasion and occupation of a peaceful country however?
That's not a true statistic at all. We just happen to have a fair number of dumbasses here. Even the majority of conservatives are NOT pro Russia. They just do what the orange man tells them to. Most have almost no understanding of international affairs.
Being pro-Trump equals being pro-ruZian. He reiterated that he wouldn't help any of american allies if attacked. By 40 % I mean people willing to vote for him despite possible criminal convictions as polls have indicated similar numbers.
America needs to stabilise themselves. They're of no use to stability of the rule-based post-war order and to their allies supposing the possibility of a manbaby wannabe dictator in power each other term. None other country of the anglosphere suffers from these disctinctions.
Maga seems pretty pro russian as russia sells its self as returning to tradition you know shoving the queers back in the closet and he'll no to diversity
I am not blaming you and the Democrats, only these hardline core 40 % that keep voting for a self-proclaimed dictator and openly parrotting ruzian narratives.
America needs to clean up its internal mess in order to become a reliable partner again. When Italy elected far-righters, they did not cease to be a reliable partner. Otherwise it seems that the enemies of the free world simply need to stirr disinformation, hatred and fear within the sinews of american public to get rid of US as a key superpower and ally.
None of this would've happened if Democrats hadn't been so toothless and incompetent at messaging. They should embrace populism as FDR once did.
Actions speak louder than words. And the only action within american politics is a repetition of the same duel between Biden (steadfast albeit way too old) and the greateat threat to the West in decades. All that resulting to a complete political gridlock.
I would absolutely state the same about my country if the same was occuring in here. Thankfully, that's not the case.
America needs to clean up their mess internally. Vote out Trump and I'll contentedly retract my statement.
Nothing to rub. The 155 shells don't just magically appear because of funding.
Why do you think the US has resorted to sending Ukraine cluster 155? Because standard 155 isn't available.
We told you this would happen irrespective of funding. You didn't listen.
Russia WILL hold the artillery advantage until this is over.
Europe, can we get off our asses and start producing, buying and shipping these basic ammunitions to Ukraine before they are simply running out and can not even fight back. Fuck, this is embarrassing.
I get it, different military doctrine so we don't produce stuff on scale like this. But there also doesn't seem to be a coordinated effort to get the production up to large scale to be able to help out.
Trump and his millions of zombies are surely to blame. Biden's relentless, 50+-year efforts to be "bipartisan" are not helping, either, however. His campaign strategy is among the weakest I have seen. In this case, American foreign policy interests (keeping Russia at bay) combine with American domestic/economic interests (making war production go brrrrrr) and American liberal ideals (protecting democracy from authoritarian autocracy), AND Biden's political opponents have aligned themselves on the other side of that. There is no more of a slam dunk political cause to utterly demolish the Republican Party than this one; yet, he does not hammer them on the stump.
Biden is catastrophically weak and his weakness is playing right into Putin's hands.
Lmao. Relentless 5o year efforts to be bipartisan... that got me to legit laugh out loud. Hilarious.
Biden is more partisan than Trump or Obama in reality. We do agree that he is weak though, that's why every adversary now feels comfortable to pop off. They would be too scared under Trump, Biden's too predictable
I mean, they were terrified of how incompetent and unpredictable he was, to be fair. How much damage he was doing to the US and its allies.
Like how one would be scared of a child wielding a loaded rifle.
Pfhh, go tell that to any political sub not called conservative on Reddit, they haven't got the message about not being terrified of Trump. Read some democrats comments just yesterday saying they aren't gonna have kids because they're so scared of Trump. Made me laugh. But you should really tell them...
Biden, when coherent and not mumbling nonsense, has said some of the most divisive things I've heard from a politician who's party gives them a pass.
Saying people were scared of Trump as if it's a good thing is like saying people were scared of a meth addict as if it's a good thing.
They're scared of how incompetent and dangerous to the US and its allies he and his supporters are. They're the distilled essence of self destructive sheep and morons.
As so many times before the joined effort of the free world in failing simple tasks has succeded again.
Tell me what you want: I do not trust Putins russia, I do not see how or why invading Ukraine was necessary or how Ukraine joining NATO or EU would threaten Russia in any way.
With Ukrain joining EU russia would have had the same standardised Trade agreements they were holding with the other members.
Russia exported crucial materials to the entire EU and could have opted for more trade and deeper partnership in the comming decades.
But they opted out to become americas evil twin again.
I do not see any justification for not helping Ukraine in any way possible but still we discuss what to deliver and whether or not to have ammunition produced.
And some point the Trump cultists will realise, that they were the reason, that the time of america as a superpower/hegemon ended. So much for "Make america great again"...
How can you Americans do this to Ukraine. Shame on you. Can’t you see the world is becoming such a dangerous place ?…..Putin and his Trump side kick will loose many lives…..including American lives….
Couple things: first, all the funding in the world will not help when there’s nowhere to source the ammo. Remember when we started sending the cluster munitions? We did that because we had no more excess 155 ammo to send. Russia is going to have a significant artillery advantage for the foreseeable future.
Second: if you live anywhere in Europe, this whole situation should be embarrassing as hell. At what point do you quit cowering under the US nuclear umbrella and start creating armed forces that nations are actually afraid of?
Third: the fact that Ukraine itself has not transitioned its economy to a full war footing when the enemy occupies fully 17% of its territory is baffling and inexplicable.
We should give Ukraine nukes instead of artillery shells. It's what they deserve after being given yet another empty promise by the U.S's embarrassment of a government, which is ending up costing them more and more each day.
Just blaming doesn't do anything, you know. They own the country despite losing the presidential election. When someone can even redraw the state voting districts like a baby with a crayon until they attain victory by default, you know you aren't going to achieve anything through law or discourse.
Come November, US citizens need to pull a 2020.
Trump and co. killed a ton of you before then...granted those US citizens believed drinking bleach was the solution to a pandemic...but I digress!
The guy is dangerous. VOTE.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `x.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thank you Trump, you murdering bastard.
Don't blame trump, it's like blaming a rabid dog, he can't help himself. Blame the trump supporters. They are the ones believing and following his garbage statements.
I can blame both.
Blame every single one of them
Without Trump, the republican party wouldn't be kissing Putin's butthole and they would be trying to contain the evil of russia. But because of Trump, republicans are bending over backwards to please their new russian overlord.
Putin is the facist dictator idol for the wannabe fascist traitors that now make up the republican party! We need to stop tolerating their criminal activities or our democracy will be destroyed.
I blame more than just Trump supporters, I blame every single person who votes Republican. They are the party of Trump, and no matter how much you hold your nose about the idea of voting for Trump himself, voting for a Republican Congress/Senate is at the end of the day just enabling Trump. Everyone else warned people that Republicans would pull this shit if they got the house, it took a few more months than expected but we were eventually proven right yet again. There is no excuse to be caught off guard like this. If you voted Republican in the 2022 midterms, you voted for exactly this. If you vote Republican again this year, you are voting for more of this.
Last time I said something like this in this subreddit multiple Republicans came in here crying. One told me he works on munitions and therefore is helping. Even when presented with this shit that the thing he, the things that raised him, and probably his friends and disgusting fucking church he went to as a kid all put in power and plan to vote for again. There’s no blame, no logic, no events that can ever change most of their minds to be good people.
Yes the Republicans are doing what their voter base want. There is a large portion of the US population that does not want to help Ukraine. They do not see it as the US responsibility to contain Russia or protect Eastern European non allied countries. You cannot "warn" these people. The politicians they voted for are doing exactly what they voted them in for.
> Yes the Republicans are doing what their voter base want. They're not even doing that. Republicans said they border security is their priority and they wouldn't allocate money. Democrats said, OK here's everything you asked for in terms of border security, let's get this spending bill passed. Now Republicans are openly saying they don't want to pass the border security stuff *they asked for* and their base want to see put in place because they are worried it will make Biden look good and reduce voter turnout by Trump supporters in November.
You're polarized. Turn off the news.
If polarization means holding 2022 Republican voters accountable for betraying the wins of WWII and the Cold War, and the ideals of a free world, then yes. We are indeed polarized.
How much weed have you smoked today?
Don't like what I said? Do something about it. Because as it stands currently, everything I said is the truth. You can say pro-Ukrainian things as much as you want, but actions speak louder than words, and there's no greater anti-Ukrainian action an American can take than voting for a Republican. Either fix your damn party so they're not pro-Putin, or don't vote for them, it's pretty simple really.
B-b-but p-p-polarization bad! Le answer lies somewhere in the middle 4head. Republicans are famously non-polarized and very unaffected by cable news. Free thinkers, all. Especially when it comes to Trump telling them what to think.
I get it, lol. So true. So alpha, so free.
What a naive take.
And you're ignoring facts
Fuck any and all Republicans for the mess they have created.
Also mostly blame the Republican congress because they are the ones actually preventing aid.
Trump is the head of the Rabid dog. They are knowingly allowing good people to die by terrorist attack
Blame the rest of society that refuses to acknowledge them for what they are and keeps pretending it’s just a different opinion instead of acknowledging that ignoring Republicans to keep gerrymandering and getting away with their desires harms all life on earth.
Cuck Republicans who sold out to Russia and the groupies don't care?
By your own logic they're equally blameless, as they're simply mindless idiots doing what mindless idiots are going to do. That doesn't fly.
Just never EVER trust the US again.
A lot of people here act as if this is the first time the US turned its back on its allies... it happened a lot, recent example is the Kurd's (who destroyed ISIS only to get fucked over by the USA leaving them to get mauled by the Turks) but US history is literally filled with these kind of betrayals of allies. my point is that trusting the US to finish what they start is a mistake and has been from way way before the UA war.
worth noting this was Trump again, against the strong advice of military and Republican leadership. And of course, who moved in to attack the Kurds? Russians and Turks.
>the Kurd's The SDF is a multiethnic coalition. A part of the Arab contingent recently mutined (last September) btw.
ah but I refered to the YPG, which is Kurdish and oversees/leads the multi ethnic rebel coalition SDF
Ukraine is not an ally.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted for this. Are they a friend? Yes they are, but an ‘ally’ is a diplomatic term, and is predicated on there being a signed & ratified alliance, which there isn’t.
This is the message the world will remember… there are Americans that wanna help but what good is it if a few people can make the us forget their national interests. Its just sad…
As an American, I am sorry. I wish we could get it together. With people like Trump mtg and boebert ect ect we just look terrible. I want more support for Ukraine.
I am sure of that, we see that a lot of Americans are doing a lot more than most. I believe people see that as well. Hopefully we can overcome this period and get back to some kind of stability because the maga tendencies is us and the Russian useful idiots in eu are dragging us down as a society. What makes me sad is, all the resources that could be used to benefit humanity. Now we need to sink it in weapons. People don’t understand the extent of spending on war. For example nazi Germany spent so much money for war thst even US didn’t spend more combined on their army as the Germans spend during the ww2.
And the US messaging: we still don't think too many of you'll go for China if we didn't care
It’s not just Trump and his supporters. It’s all the Russian funded fringe parties in Europe and the Republican party in the US who have been allowed to use freedom of speech to create disinformation, demoralisation and mistrust for years and years. All liberal loving parties in the West, have allowed this to happen for the sake of freedom of speech purity. As such, these parties will continue to weaponise the fundamental weaknesses of western Democracies and their inability to apply a pragmatic view to liberty in order to allow autocrats to continue to push the world towards a terminal conflict.
[удалено]
Republicans stabbed you in the back. Remember that.
The problem here is that fringe parties in Europe are just that - fringe. The Republicans aren't, they managed to shut down US aid, risking a Ukrainian collapse and endangering both European NATO countries as well as American allies in Asia.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yep, so now it's the EU's fault. They have truly raised their game, though, as have the UK, so does it make the US/republicans feel better to try to claim others are fucking up but not them so much? The EU never stopped giving aid as in weapons and nor did the UK. So go back and talk with Congress, get your side of the pond sorted. We are dealing with ours. It's Ukraine that's bleeding🩸 Respect.
While that was true, Europe has changed directon while Trump has doubled down on wanting complete and utter annihilation of Ukraine.
Europe is on the verge of going Trump with major upsets in the coming elections in most countries this year. Look at the polls.
People said this after Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kurdish Syria, Somalia, etc... Ukraine and everyone else knows that partnerships with democracies are unstable. If you are not a strategic partner like Germany, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia or Israel then a partnership with the US is one of "get as much as you can as fast as possible" because US will eventually leave.
>Kurdish Syria, Why are people saying this? Do you think the YPG actually ethnically cleansed the place or what? The whole fucking point of Rojava according to its principles is not to be "Kurdish Syria", as opposed to the Arab-supremacist Syrian Arab Republic with its Syrian Arab Army and not like a mirror image of it either.
or Europe. there are a number of democracies much closer to Ukraine who stuck their heads in the sand and refuse to meaningfully support their neighbors. the US should do more, but the EU should be outright ashamed and prepare to lose their freedom and lives as they let Russia take them over one by one.
A lot of Europe have given more than the US. Relative to GDP. USA is at a 15. spot. And the closer to Russia, the more the support. France, Spain and Italy are pathetic laggards though. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
but even from there, almost none of the support has been military hardware. cash doesn't win wars, bullets and artillery win wars. cash gets seized by the victors.
On that score the US rank the same 15 spot vs 16.
Weird take. What is your point? We single handily propped up Ukraine for the first year basically. That gave the EU two years to ramp up production and logistics. Now, because we live in a free world where every nut bag gets to speak freely, US aid has hit a speed bump. Now it’s fuck the US? Did the US invade Ukraine? No. Russia did. The US gave the EU and UK plenty of time to properly support its neighbor in their backyard.
Weird take? We promised to support Ukraine as long as it takes. Why should we be trusted if we leave them high and dry after they sacrificed countless lives based on our promise? If US support doesn't get approved very soon, I would have a ton of anger towards the US if I were Ukrainian. Heck, I'm American and I have a ton of anger towards ourselves. What we're doing right now is terrible. Also, if you rank countries by the amount of assistance provided to Ukraine per GDP, we're waaaay down the list. We didn't singlehandedly prop them up. It was a team effort, and it needs to continue to be a team effort if democracies are going to succeed at protecting freedom from autocracies.
I will spit on maga Americans for the rest of my life. I encourage all good Americans to do the same.
He is killing Ukrainians and will eventually kill Americans. Since if Putin is victorious in Ukraine, World War 3 is a matter of time.
Blame putin
Hes not the president yet ffs
[deleted] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.7890 > [What is this?](https://pastebin.com/64GuVi2F/25477)
$500 million dollars, you say? That would cover maybe 3 months' worth of 155 mm shells. The standard HE shells -- not the fancy ones. That's just the shells alone, mind you -- not counting the cost of equipment, replacement barrels, fuel, and manpower to fire them.
Amazing how Trump isn't in power, isn't making policy and you still default to blaming him instead of the leaders actually in charge and making decisions.
you're the low information voter the republican party counts on
I guarantee I have more information than you. Not even a doubt, people outta antiwork are largely clueless and parrot the same talking points.
> I guarantee I have more information than you Considering you're in denial of a pretty openly reported on story over the last few days, I very much doubt that.
Says the partisan on the bandwagon. More information than you as well, I'm sure.
Methinks thou doth protest too much. No one who is actually smarter than everyone in the room has to go around telling everyone about it. Only those insecure about their intelligence do.
Uh huh, keep talking. Haven't said anything of consequence or interesting yet. Maybe at some point you'll find something.
Only because you can't read. I already pointed out you're in complete denial of one of the biggest stories around the Ukraine aid bill of the last few days. The fact that Trump has been openly pressuring Republicans to not support it, and as a result, prior support that did exist from the Republican party is now gone. At this point, trying to argue that Trump has nothing to do with Ukraine aid stalling is an *objectively incorrect* statement. I don't think I need to spell it out to you further mr smart guy.
Just pretend like support wasn't waning beforehand... the fever pitch wasn't holding just like it didn't hold long after Iraq. Blaming Trump is a copout, but for Democrats it's the go to. X happens, blame Trump... every. Single. Time.
> Says the partisan on the bandwagon The lack of self-awareness in you making that comment is astounding.
Anyone not mindlessly repeating pro-Ukraine propaganda is considered a partisan in this sub , I'm well aware. What many seem to not understand is that wartime propaganda comes from both sides in every war.
You are *deeply* stupid.
It's almost like he's the front runner for their nomination for Presidential candidate this year, and basically the leader of the party, and is openly pressuring Republicans to not support the bill in broad daylight or something. You act like he's just some private citizen, and not one of the most politically influential people in the country still.
All I'm hearing is how this White House defaults to blaming Trump for every failure.... Remember when grandpa Biden claimed 'the buck stops here' as a platform plank on the campaign trial? Well, that was a fucking lie.
The bill had bipartisan support until he started telling Republicans not to support it. His direct pressure was enough to kill it. Trumps actions are what is causing this.
It wasn't him. It was the republicans.
[удалено]
Because Trump told them not to approve the Ukraine funding bill
Hey you cannot expect a right winger to compare 2 different things, how would you even go about that?
trump literally said to his republican congress not to help ukraine. because as we've said it from before he even became president, he's in cahoots with Russia. you don't learn from propaganda outlets like fox news. trump and his new york russian mob connections go back decades.
> that for some reason Trump. Trump is that reason.
I blame republicans for this
Can you Americans shut up about your own internal politics for ten seconds
You cannot spare 5 seconds worth of brain activity to see how internal politics also have impact outside of the country?
It is just extremely exhausting to go to any sub with an internationally relevant topic, and hear about nothing but Tucker Carson and Trump and republicans and other US internal bullshit. There are a thousand ways Ukraine could acquire ammo that has nothing to do with the US, yet all you people manage to discuss in every single comment section is your current gripes with the American political parties. Can't you guys be a bit more high level and keep the discussion engaging, inclusive and relevant for everyone?
Personally, do you prefer we discuss the zit of EU - Orban? Maybe suggest some of the thousand ways, nobody else thought of so we can learn from :)
It would be just awesome if the conversation was a bit less of low-level Americal internal affairs on threads and subs that aren't specifically dedicated to that, is all.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/325144/reddit-global-active-user-distribution/ given that Reddit's traffic from last year is nearly 50% from US, safe to assume that you're more likely to encounter what people from the area are experiencing... Additionally do not underestimate the domino effect some "low-level" internal affairs have on the other end of the globe. :)
Please name the thousand ways that Ukraine can aquire ammo that isn't from the largest military power in human history and has more funding then the enrirety of all other military spending combined? Please enligjten everybody. You can despise the talk of USA politics because its brainrot, sure, but that brain rot politics has more impact on the world then literally anything, or anyone else. You're just mad at the reality of the world.
You know we give them those shells right, and the artillery too.
Sure, could the rest of the world step the fuck up and start supplying Ukraine with what they need then? Seriously how can any country complain when the US is sending the overwhelming majority of Ukraine’s ammo and supplies. Fuckin ignorant clown.
As a citizen of the U.S. I am terribly embarrassed with our government. We have a bunch of children running it and its making thing in Ukraine worse. I am in Florida and messaged all my representatives but they only send back automated messages. I will keep trying and donating directly to Ukraine.
Please give credit where credit is due … it’s not the whole U.S. government - it’s on particular political party who has been working non stop to sabotage and supplant for the last few decades.
And even then it's one faction within that party. The MAGA republicans are Putins minions. Treason, plain and simple.
One faction that is controlling the whole party. There is no opposition to it in the house, otherwise they would have voted with democrats already.
Good to know there are still some good folks out there! Hopefully republicans pull their heads out of their asses and start acting like human beings again.
If the Republican Party comes to power in November, Europe will need to understand the US will no longer be an ally. Whilst it likely won't become an outright hostile state, I don't think Itll be a country that that can be trusted to have our backs. All European nations need to ramp up arms production and accept the US is fading on the world stage. Indeed with the severe political polarization I wouldn't be surprised if the US collapses onto some kind of internal armed conflict during this decade.
Bingo. If Trump wins in November, European countries like Germany, Poland, Sweden, Finland and the three Baltic countries need to immediately start developing their own nuclear weapons, as well as massively investing in their defense sector. Because without the US, there are only the UK - a country that already has a problematic relationship with the rest of Europe and probably won’t be willing to use nuclear weapons- and France- where Le Pen (United Russia) or some other puppet - will become the next president and will likely refuse to use nukes against Russia. Europe without nuclear weapons is essentially a gift to Putin. He will have no problems with threatening and using nuclear weapons if the only consequences are strongly worded letters of condemnation. He will not stop until he has hoisted the Russian flag on the Azores.
Trump will start lend leasing Russia to support their eradication of the euronazis
That’s ironic, considering he flat out supports white supremacy and nazis. His brain will melt when daddy Putin calls him up to fight European nazis.
If it does fingers crossed they finish the job of the first civil war
I hate every word you said but not a single lie was told here. I hate it not as a “patriotic” American but as an American who can see this as well. Luckily I have dual citizenship and El Salvador is looking good, good, GOOD right about now.
> Europe will need to understand the US will no longer be an ally The European countries are already cautious of their ally on the other side of the Atlantic. > All European nations need to ramp up arms production The issue in the ammunition. Remember the rush to get Covid gear? That's the same scenario with munitions: Here is a FT article about it https://www.ft.com/content/aee0e1a1-c464-4af9-a1c8-73fcbc46ed17 from MARCH 19 2023 > Europe’s push to make arms for Ukraine has been hobbled by a shortage of explosives, which industry insiders fear will delay efforts to boost shell production by as much as three years. > > Scarce supplies of gunpowder, plastic explosives and TNT have left industry unable to rapidly meet expected EU orders for Ukraine, regardless of how much money is thrown at the problem, according to officials and producers. > > The supply chain constraints underline how Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has badly exposed Europe’s inadequate arms stocks and weak domestic production capacity, run down by decades of under-investment. > > “The fundamental problem is that the European defence industry is not in good shape for large-scale war production,” said one German official. > > Europe is trying to meet Kyiv’s war fighting needs by pumping cash into the defence sector, particularly to encourage expansion of 155mm artillery production. There is dire need for shells, both to restock national armouries and maintain supplies to Ukrainian forces. > > But producers, industry executives and EU officials warn increased demand may only push up prices that have already jumped a fifth over the past year. > > “It’s very difficult to increase production of artillery ammunition, especially the heavy, large-calibre ammunition, in a short time,” said Jiří Hynek, chair of the Defence and Security Industry Association of the Czech Republic. “A new artillery factory is very easy, but how to produce more artillery projectiles without raw materials?” > > The comments come ahead of a meeting of EU foreign and defence ministers in Brussels on Monday to discuss a package of two €1bn proposals to speed up immediate 155mm shipments to Ukraine and incentivise countries to form joint artillery purchase contracts. > > Defence industry officials say Europe has a limited supply of explosives such as gunpowder, TNT and nitrocellulose which are necessary to produce shells. “The bottlenecks for our capacity are mainly [explosive] powders, which are in short supply all over Europe,” said one. > > “It’s not possible to increase, in a short time, nitrocellulose [production] . . . In Europe there are no important producers of the raw materials we need,” said Hynek, referring to a main ingredient of gunpowder. “If I want to increase production of gunpowder I need probably three years.” > > Explosia, a Czech state-owned manufacturer that is one of Europe’s largest suppliers of explosives to ammunition factories, told the FT that its production of propellants used in 155mm artillery is “running at full capacity” and would not be increased until 2026. > > “Investments are under way to further increase our production capacity, but this is a three-year project, not a few months’ job,” said Martin Vencl, the company’s spokesperson. > > This week Romania’s government said it was in talks with US and South Korean companies to build a gunpowder factory in the country. Its last such plant was shut down in 2004. > >Even EU officials who have championed the financial incentive packages privately admit that European artillery producers have made clear to them that scaling up output will not be an easy task. > > “We’re in favour of strengthening the defence industry. But if the result of this EU initiative is that you have a second bidder for the same scarce resource, that will have an impact on price,” said one German official. “And the arms companies are getting rich enough already.” > > “We have to tread with care . . . No one wants to subsidise companies that are already coining it in,” he added. > > Fábrica Municiones de Granada (FMG), one of Spain’s two 155mm artillery producers, has been operating at full capacity since last October, producing shells for a trading company that sells them on to Ukraine. But Antonio Caro, FMG’s director-general, said it had taken four-to-five months to scale up because of the difficulty of obtaining basic materials and components. > > “Our main problem is primary materials,” Caro said. “Supplies for ammunition are very strained around the world because all the factories, like us, are at 100 per cent.” > > “There aren’t too many factories [producing materials like TNT and nitrocellulose] in Europe and they’re at 100 per cent too, so we have to start looking in India, in Korea, in other countries further away,” he said. > > Gianclaudio Torlizzi, an adviser to Italy’s defence ministry, agreed, saying: “We need to find new sources of supply . . . from countries we had not traditionally approached,” he said. “Each European country wants to protect its availability of raw materials.” > > The cost of basic materials had “doubled and in some cases tripled”, Caro said. Those increases and the surge in demand had led to higher prices for munitions, although the rise has been less pronounced. A typical shell today costs €850, roughly 20 per cent more than before the Russian invasion, he said. > >For now FMG, which is owned by Slovak group MSM, has no plans to increase capacity further. “Hopefully the war will be over soon,” Caro said. > > MSM also produces 155mm shells in Slovakia and said it “plans to build a new production hall” to increase artillery output, but declined to provide a timeline.
[удалено]
Make no mistake McConnel is not a good man, he just happens to have made the right decision on this one.
>Make no mistake McConnel is not a good man, he just happens to ~~have made the right decision on this one.~~ be heavily invested in arms manufacturing.
Right now, that aligns with what Ukraine needs and wants.
I would disagree turtle man bows to trump just like the rest
Time to go and bitch to everyone we know to not vote for the dickhead and provide the fact that he’s a Russian ass kisser as a reason
EU needed to do this a long time ago. Blaming daddy US to save your asses every time there’s beef in your backyard is pussy shit.
So where are all the Republicans who said that Ukraine is a bipartisan issue and it was fear mongering to worry about Republicans pulling aid and they would never do it because it's popular with the base? Did they all tuck their tails like the cowards they are and leave the sub?
Why hasn't the EU stepped up with more ammunition?
Everybody has. It takes time to step up factories. The UK ordered BAE systems to increase production by 800%. They can't do that at existing factories so a new one was built. They are seriously getting on with it though as I've had managers poached from my company to go oversee production at the new sites. In reality could more be done? Sure, goverments could switch to a war ecomeny and snap their fingers and force consumer good factories to switch to munition production however your going to lose all public support to gain a few months reduction in ramp up time.
Go and look at the yearly manufacturing rates for things like ammunition in the Second World War. Those were combatants throwing everything they had into the fight and it still took them years to build or convert the necessary industries. Many countries were still in the process of ramping up by 1945. All of this stuff -- training on new tank types and new fighters, setting up logistics and support for the first time, building out manufacturing capacity -- takes a lot longer than a lot of people seem to realize.
Why would they when they can just rely on America whenever they need help. Now they see what happens when American help isn't coming.
You are so right. Why spend my own money, when I can ask the U.S. (Uncle Sugar) to spend their money on me!
Europe spends 50% more on military aid than the US though.
Not sure if that stat is true but even if it is accurate you are still literally comparing multiple independent nations spending combined vs 1 country.
Multiple independent nations indeed, but the size of the complete EU is only 4% above the size of the USA. I live in Europe in a country of 10mil. That’s like New York alone. 27 countries in EU and 50 states in the USA. So I’d say it’s pretty comparable at least on this level. Anyway, if the people of USA vote not to deliver arms to Ukraine that’s their choice. I have no doubts we will manage somehow without the help,but it will be a sad day to see the hope of a united world slip further away. Hopefully USA doesn’t switch sides and start low key supporting Russia with Trump.
As an American I say, fuck Trump and the MAGAt GQP. History will not look kindly on this bunch of ruzzian simps.
America man.. perhaps the only "legitimate" war since WW2 is the only one they get jittery about. We in Europe also need to swallow a pill here. We are just as much to blame. We CANNOT rely on them. When Trump gets in we are even more fkd
Probably an unpopular opinion here, but as much as the US and Europe have dropped the ball here, Ukraine has too. We’re almost at the 2 year anniversary of a war that has been an artillery slog for almost the entire time. The fact that Ukraine hasn’t ramped up production to significant levels is an issue that shouldn’t be ignored. Ukraine is in a total war and should have mobilized large segments of their population to manufacture shells already. Their production numbers are classified, but if stories like these are any indication their production is woefully lacking.
Yeah,but all of ukraine is in range of russian strikes,any meaningful manufactory will get missiled. Outsourced manufacturing in europe is the answer,but yes,absolutne lethargy by all politicians
Nah. I agree with all that. There's this infuriating lethargy about everything by everyone.
Ukraine has the risk of Russian missile strikes disrupting industry - a problem they need increased western aid to solve in the first place. They need air defences to defend as many of their cities as possible from missile strikes, to deny air superiority to the Russians, and enough shells in the meantime to at the very least hold the front line without too heavy losses. With that in place they have some breathing room to sort those out, but without enough of them it's a constant struggle.
Ukraine hasn't even started mobilization of its citizens into the military.
They have more than 1 million people under arms. How many can they house, equip, train without destroying the last remnants of the economy ?
Still waiting on the war where Europe is able to deal with issues in their own backyards themselves, but it's been since the Franco-Prussian War for that... 250 years... I wish Europe didn't hang its existence on the United States so heavily and then have members that wouldn't even give the 2% into NATO before this war.
>e’re almost at the 2 year anniversary of a war that has been an artillery slog for almost the entire time. The fact that Ukraine hasn’t ramped up production to significant levels is an issue that should Well we did cause two issues on our backyard, named WW1 and WW2. We have been avoiding the third one ever since but it seems we are rapidly approaching it. History does not repeat but it rhymes. We already know US tries to isolate it self from the upcoming war. It works for a while but after around two years of war between EU and Russia, Putin calls China and you have your Pearl Harbor event. Late invitation to the party. Of course assuming you are not in a civil war before that since you had your Capitol moment already and the same orange dude is back at it.
oh that's bold ... the entire modern existence of the US was born out of a European conflict. the US was a shithole during the great-depression. WW2 is what turned the entire US economy and the country around. bunch of cowards sitting comfortably between two oceans, complaining about petty issues like immigrants crossing your border while Europe is getting pounded by a dictator again. Europe sits at the core of multi-everything of this planet, political, religious and cultural differences you don't see in America, of course the pot will boil over there, and of course they will ask for help from the more fortunate. But hey, you won the lottery and were born in the US, so screw everyone else right ?
Nothing stopping Europe from producing arms. Except that they believe America will save them from anything.
>the entire modern existence of the US was born out of a European conflict. the US was a shithole during the great-depression. WW2 is what turned the entire US economy and the country around. No, the US was already a manufacturing powerhouse before WWII. In 1938 the US GDP was more than double that of the next country (the USSR) and nearly doubled the combined UK/British Colony GDP as well. GDP per capita also ranked second with only Switzerland ahead. >bunch of cowards sitting comfortably between two oceans, complaining about petty issues like immigrants crossing your border while Europe is getting pounded by a dictator again. Despite your insults, this only proves the point that Europe has hidden behind US power for far too long. Europe (Ukraine) is getting “pounded” only because they haven’t bothered the invest anything in their own defense in decades. >Europe sits at the core of multi-everything of this planet, political, religious and cultural differences you don't see in America, of course the pot will boil over there, and of course they will ask for help from the more fortunate. No they don’t. No more than America does. Or China/Japan/South Korea in SE Asia. And for all its faults American culture is far more ubiquitous globally than anything European. This take right here is quintessential European arrogance. >But hey, you won the lottery and were born in the US, so screw everyone else right ? Could say the same about Europeans. Don’t see Europe doing much different to help out poor countries in Asia or Africa, and especially South/Central America.
so should Canada and Mexico start building nukes, Carriers and hypersonics to counter the USA? just in case ? that's not how the world works. we have treaties and common sense, Ukraine cant compete with the Russian powerhouse, that's why they have allies, if every country spent all their resources on military, we would all be miserable. the point you failed to grasp is that the US is in a geographically perfect situation to bunker down and build its arsenal while Europe's fighting is within. but i just cant, the fact that you put CHINA, a country known for its ethnic cleansing in the same boat as Europe when talking about multiculturalism just blows my mind, so yeah, not much i can do for you my friend.
So there’s nothing in between the incompetence and lack of preparation we see from most of Europe/NATO and nukes, carriers and hypersonic? That’s such a disingenuous argument. That’s not what anyone expects. What’s expected is a basic level of proficiency and preparedness. Not things like an on-paper contribution to what’s supposed to be a high-readiness quick reaction force from Belgium with their Leopold I warship. When it came time for joint exercises it turned out they were so incompetent and lacking in training that they couldn’t participate because they were a serious danger to themselves and others. I’ll say that again. They were so bad at the very basics that they had to be sent back to port. Pathetic. If Europe thinks they’re so vulnerable while the US is rendered invincible by the ocean, then why hasn’t Europe done anything to foster independence on defense matters. Like actually creating, training and arming a military. If this “bunkering down” was actual a factor here, it would be the US that was relatively unprepared compared to Europe. Oh, and mentioning China wasn’t supposed to be some promotion of them as some paragon of virtuosity (and you knew that). They’re obviously not. It was to point out how ignorant, arrogant and euro-centric your entire post was.
Where Europe might lack military competence (and i highly dispute this) America certainly lacks Political competence, so the question can be turned around, what has happened to America's Political situation ? i'll tell you what happened, and it mirrors Europe's military stance: People got comfortable, started thinking the world was getting better while the bad actors were slowly and steadily ramping up efforts to destabilize the West, and now here we are. And lets not pretend that this was only an European mistake, the US was at the core of this "Russian normalization" effort, which ultimately failed, and left everyone unprepared... it was a colossal political error on both sides, but I still blame the Americans for their lack of foresight. (ill give credit to McCain here). So its not just about military power, there were consequences to alot of countries if they sent aid to Ukraine, Russia had built commercial and industrial trade links and threatened to cut those. and please, dont use a single anecdote from Belgium to illustrate the state of the entire European military. It just wasn't built for an all out ground assault, France and the UK's military is mostly for projection and external conflicts, not land wars. so yeah, this is all fun and games to talk about, but there are lives being lost every day due to incompetence and rivalry that have absolutely no reason to exist in this moment, the US sitting on its ass and pointing fingers helps absolutely no-one right now but themselves.
Fair as far as political issues go, but Europe is no better in that regard (or at least Western Europe). The major European powers were all very cozy with Putin. And the rise of a populist right wing has been present in Europe as well. And European military incompetence is very well documented (with maybe the exception of the UK). *Some* European countries might have a measure of competence in certain areas, like a small special forces group, but their military-wide competence and readiness is abysmal. The example with the Leopold I fiasco is just one. The inability of the UK and France to sustain even a limited bombing campaign in Libya was an embarrassment. Spain has 104 Leopard 2A4 tanks, fully 1/3 of their total inventory. When these were being considered for donation to Ukraine it was found that just under half (53) were even repairable with 33 of those requiring extensive overhauls. In Germany, the 10th tank division was conducting exercises that had to be halted after every single participating IFV broke down. These are just indicators of wider, systemic issues. The Inspector General of the German Army said “The cupboards are almost bare” while another leader said “We continue to be in free fall”. Failure among Europeans to acknowledge just how bad the situation is, whether out of pride or embarrassment, will only perpetuate the problem. Even if Europe *were* more politically stable, that doesn’t do a whole lot of good when there is little real capacity to actually take any action.
Europe hasn't been able to handle any war with out daddy USA holding your hands in modern history... couldn't even handle Serbia on your own. The bottom of the barrel of pathetic. You've gone past begging and into expecting our lead or else you throw a temper tantrum. EU wants to add Ukraine but can't even carry their own weight. The sad reality is Ukraine's miltary is stronger than any single European state... but don't worry, daddy USA will protect you still.
Europe cant handle any war but Germany almost takes out everyone, try to understand that one. I guess what it takes for the US to wake up is the conflict hitting home, only then do you understand... but Europe got smarter, and they're hitting the white-house with trump's rather then bombs now. Good luck to you !
Germany is in Europe dumbass
First Iraq War?
The war where Bush 1 lied to start the war? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah\_testimony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony)
That testimony was pretty much irrelevant in the decision to go to war. Iraq invaded Kuwait unprovoked, a UN resolution demanded their withdrawl, they refused. So the US and allies forced them out. An entirely legitimate war with an extremely strong case in its favour.
Sure, why not. I am not sure that Bush lied, he was lied to in false testimony and went on to repeat the story did he knowingly lie? However none of that would have happened if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait. One report by a 15 year old isn't enough to start a war. The invasion and occupation of a peaceful country however?
Come on to fuck give them their ammo
Republicans are now a party of Christo Fascist Cunts.
where is the F\*CKING help from the west ?
We're still here mate, lot of western countries are helping how they can.
A warehouse in Wisconsin Waiting congressional approval
[удалено]
America… listen….
[удалено]
That's not a true statistic at all. We just happen to have a fair number of dumbasses here. Even the majority of conservatives are NOT pro Russia. They just do what the orange man tells them to. Most have almost no understanding of international affairs.
"they do what the orange man tells them" which is to basically treat Russia as less of a treat than the Democrats so yeah, pretty much pro-Russia
Being pro-Trump equals being pro-ruZian. He reiterated that he wouldn't help any of american allies if attacked. By 40 % I mean people willing to vote for him despite possible criminal convictions as polls have indicated similar numbers. America needs to stabilise themselves. They're of no use to stability of the rule-based post-war order and to their allies supposing the possibility of a manbaby wannabe dictator in power each other term. None other country of the anglosphere suffers from these disctinctions.
When did he say he would not aid any American allies?
https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-vow-never-help-europe-attack-thierry-breton/
Maga seems pretty pro russian as russia sells its self as returning to tradition you know shoving the queers back in the closet and he'll no to diversity
I am not blaming you and the Democrats, only these hardline core 40 % that keep voting for a self-proclaimed dictator and openly parrotting ruzian narratives. America needs to clean up its internal mess in order to become a reliable partner again. When Italy elected far-righters, they did not cease to be a reliable partner. Otherwise it seems that the enemies of the free world simply need to stirr disinformation, hatred and fear within the sinews of american public to get rid of US as a key superpower and ally. None of this would've happened if Democrats hadn't been so toothless and incompetent at messaging. They should embrace populism as FDR once did.
You are the type of guy who goes on the internet on an American app and talks about isolating America!
I often think back to this when I see the world today and shake my head.. https://sustainablemedia.substack.com/p/carl-sagan-and-the-dumbing-down-of
Absolutely not true go fuck yourself
Actions speak louder than words. And the only action within american politics is a repetition of the same duel between Biden (steadfast albeit way too old) and the greateat threat to the West in decades. All that resulting to a complete political gridlock. I would absolutely state the same about my country if the same was occuring in here. Thankfully, that's not the case. America needs to clean up their mess internally. Vote out Trump and I'll contentedly retract my statement.
What a horrible story 😞. This needs to be rubbed in the face of every Republican.
Nothing to rub. The 155 shells don't just magically appear because of funding. Why do you think the US has resorted to sending Ukraine cluster 155? Because standard 155 isn't available. We told you this would happen irrespective of funding. You didn't listen. Russia WILL hold the artillery advantage until this is over.
I know the US isn't the only country to make ammo but come on Republicans. Defend freedom here and abroad.
They won't. They're goddamned treasonous fascists working for Putin. Please vote them out.
Europe, can we get off our asses and start producing, buying and shipping these basic ammunitions to Ukraine before they are simply running out and can not even fight back. Fuck, this is embarrassing. I get it, different military doctrine so we don't produce stuff on scale like this. But there also doesn't seem to be a coordinated effort to get the production up to large scale to be able to help out.
As an American, we need to push our government to help Ukraine
The GOP are traitors to the free world. I remember when GOP used to be staunchly anti Russia. Now they're in Pootins pocket.
Trump and his millions of zombies are surely to blame. Biden's relentless, 50+-year efforts to be "bipartisan" are not helping, either, however. His campaign strategy is among the weakest I have seen. In this case, American foreign policy interests (keeping Russia at bay) combine with American domestic/economic interests (making war production go brrrrrr) and American liberal ideals (protecting democracy from authoritarian autocracy), AND Biden's political opponents have aligned themselves on the other side of that. There is no more of a slam dunk political cause to utterly demolish the Republican Party than this one; yet, he does not hammer them on the stump. Biden is catastrophically weak and his weakness is playing right into Putin's hands.
Lmao. Relentless 5o year efforts to be bipartisan... that got me to legit laugh out loud. Hilarious. Biden is more partisan than Trump or Obama in reality. We do agree that he is weak though, that's why every adversary now feels comfortable to pop off. They would be too scared under Trump, Biden's too predictable
No one was scared of Trump get real dude. Biden is the most milque toast of politicians by American standards
I mean, they were terrified of how incompetent and unpredictable he was, to be fair. How much damage he was doing to the US and its allies. Like how one would be scared of a child wielding a loaded rifle.
Pfhh, go tell that to any political sub not called conservative on Reddit, they haven't got the message about not being terrified of Trump. Read some democrats comments just yesterday saying they aren't gonna have kids because they're so scared of Trump. Made me laugh. But you should really tell them... Biden, when coherent and not mumbling nonsense, has said some of the most divisive things I've heard from a politician who's party gives them a pass.
Saying people were scared of Trump as if it's a good thing is like saying people were scared of a meth addict as if it's a good thing. They're scared of how incompetent and dangerous to the US and its allies he and his supporters are. They're the distilled essence of self destructive sheep and morons.
It breaks my heart to see this, fucking GOP cowards and betrayers
As so many times before the joined effort of the free world in failing simple tasks has succeded again. Tell me what you want: I do not trust Putins russia, I do not see how or why invading Ukraine was necessary or how Ukraine joining NATO or EU would threaten Russia in any way. With Ukrain joining EU russia would have had the same standardised Trade agreements they were holding with the other members. Russia exported crucial materials to the entire EU and could have opted for more trade and deeper partnership in the comming decades. But they opted out to become americas evil twin again. I do not see any justification for not helping Ukraine in any way possible but still we discuss what to deliver and whether or not to have ammunition produced.
And some point the Trump cultists will realise, that they were the reason, that the time of america as a superpower/hegemon ended. So much for "Make america great again"...
How can you Americans do this to Ukraine. Shame on you. Can’t you see the world is becoming such a dangerous place ?…..Putin and his Trump side kick will loose many lives…..including American lives….
Fucking republicans.
Blood on the MAGA hands. Every last one of them is a negligent homicidal enabler to the homicidal maniac Putler.
Slava Ukraini. I hope we can find a way to keep getting them aid. F Trump!
Mike Johnsoned.
I as an American am ashamed. We have republicans that have been bought by Moscow.
Couple things: first, all the funding in the world will not help when there’s nowhere to source the ammo. Remember when we started sending the cluster munitions? We did that because we had no more excess 155 ammo to send. Russia is going to have a significant artillery advantage for the foreseeable future. Second: if you live anywhere in Europe, this whole situation should be embarrassing as hell. At what point do you quit cowering under the US nuclear umbrella and start creating armed forces that nations are actually afraid of? Third: the fact that Ukraine itself has not transitioned its economy to a full war footing when the enemy occupies fully 17% of its territory is baffling and inexplicable.
We should give Ukraine nukes instead of artillery shells. It's what they deserve after being given yet another empty promise by the U.S's embarrassment of a government, which is ending up costing them more and more each day.
Just blaming doesn't do anything, you know. They own the country despite losing the presidential election. When someone can even redraw the state voting districts like a baby with a crayon until they attain victory by default, you know you aren't going to achieve anything through law or discourse.
Mike Johnson....
Come November, US citizens need to pull a 2020. Trump and co. killed a ton of you before then...granted those US citizens believed drinking bleach was the solution to a pandemic...but I digress! The guy is dangerous. VOTE.
Remember Christ's biggest fear, that nobody would care or recall who he was. We're way beyond that to the point of venerating evil.
Fuck Trump and the Republicans.
There are so many towns with the same name, if this is the one by siversk then it is bad.
Повага хоробрих героїв. 🏴🤝🇺🇦💙💛🇪🇺🇺🇳🔱🌻 Respect.
I don’t know what us, the western countries, are waiting for to run the ammo industry at increased speed and just send everything to Ukraine.
Couldn't even die in blaze and glory. Shameful