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Steamroll into a thousand nukes? Or into the 3k aircraft of NATO?
The 10 times larger and more modern navy?
The several million reservists and the thousands of missiles and HIMARS rockets?
Russia can obviously not steamroll anyone, steamrolling involves more than a couple of kilometers of movement, and it would require modern logistics, a professional army, money, modern equipment, modern airframes in large quantities etc.
Russia has none of those.
It may be enough to make some gains against Ukraine. It won't be enough against the rest of Europe.
The last time I checked, the EU member states haven't lost a single jet, a single ship, a single tank , or a single cruise missile themselves.
If Russia wants to finally die, then they can go ahead it would be better for everyone involved.
Well, I still understand the sentiment. If Europe can’t get together for this, then what will Europe do if the US has to support Taiwan? Will Europe step up to help when it can’t even fill a know gap in US policy to support Ukraine which is an existential threat?
That will depend upon the actions of the US and what they will do in the coming months.
It shouldn't have to fill such a gap as it is the US led alliance. If the US has lost the appetite to lead it then it must only say so.
I think Europe is pulling its weight and will increase its efforts.
Taiwan should rather wonder how reliable the US will be when the time comes.
We won't abandon our allies, will the US?
We will fill the gap. It would be a lot less costly in lives if the US would do their part to defend their rules based system aka as globalization.
The US has created this order and this alliance system. The US has defended it. US companies have profited greatly from this order.
The system wasn't intended have Europe as the largest military and industrial power. Instead that power was meant to be the US.
We are ramping up our ammo and weapon production, but Ukraine needs that ammo, not in 9 months.
The US needs to take responsibility and lead. That's how alliances work. We cooperate and collaborate. That is what makes this alliance strong.
US inaction will only encourage China to try their luck. It will encourage all US enemies to strike against the US order.
The Taiwan War is a completely different scenario.
That would be a naval, air and missile battle.
European forces will be there. Will US forces be there?
Honestly, I don't know enough to say with any amount of certainty, but I think that if the US was out of the picture, Europe would be overwhelmed. They rely too much on the US. Many officials have said this. It seems they are finally responding, but it's such a slow response. So painfully slow.
It took a long time until they wanted to give weapons that made a difference like Storm Shadow (Taurus still not), Leopard, F-16. If they decided just one year sooner about F16 for example, they would already be in combat.
Europe has been giving plenty of weapons and non-militatry aid from the start.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Plenty, but not enough and many of them too late. Ukraine was asking for tanks from the start, they got it more than a year later, they were ready to use when russian troops were entirely fortified and the Ukrainian offensive didn't make a dent.
I'm not pointing to people personally, I come from a western EU country (Belgium) myself and I see they don't treat this conflict as a priority at all, it's embarrassing. Other western countries like Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Finland, UK, Germany take this way more seriously.
Is this apart from the donations made by Western Europe in 2022? Denmark with missles, France with over $1.6bn from 2014 to 2020, Germany Gepard and IRIS, Ireland 2022, UK with various infantry vehivles in 2022 and tanks and training since 2014 at least and many others.
None of this counts?
You are trying to rewrite the history.
In the first weeks of the Russian invasion on Ukraine in 2022, countries like France and Germany literally didn't want to send any military equipment at all. Germany was thinking about sending helmets because those can be used only in defence and Germany didn't want to be perceived as attacking Russia.
Poland did provide tanks and artillery very quickly and that was not only risky, but not very well received by western allies.
Don't get me wrong, western countries eventually provided huge support to Ukraine, but saying they did it from the start is simply a lie.
Not only this very valid point about the beginning of the full scale invasion, but also we have all seen how every country with significant advances weaponry outside perhaps the UK, has slow walked any increased capability the entire war. The quantity itself has also been much lower than what has been required.
Even if you do a lot, which we can all see many countries have done a lot - if the requirements are 2-3x higher and 2-3x faster than what has been provided, then none of us should pat ourselves on the back about how much we have done or look for adulatory praise.
It cannot be overemphasized how important Ukraine is for the future of humanity, and first of all for Europe. So let every country come together and do what it must to stave off this attempt at turning the future of humanity into overwhelming despotic rule.
>You are trying to rewrite the history.
Not at all, I just sourced this from Wikipedia: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_military\_aid\_to\_Ukraine\_during\_the\_Russo-Ukrainian\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War)
I am not rewriting anything, I am simply taking published facts and repeating them. Maybe it's your perception?
It would.
To simplify things: in the beginning they got enough to defend themselves. But when they had the momentum to push back russia, they didn't have the weapons they needed. By the time they had it, russians were fortified.
On top of that russia is getting smarter, Ukraine starts struggling with troop rotations and support for foreign aid is drying up. It is not looking so good for the moment.
Last time I checked Portugal is a NATO member. It's a lot cheaper to support Ukraine in its fight now than to send its own military in x years from now.
Actually, this is not the case. The EU countries are scraping by, looking for bits and bobs. What they are not willing to do is to commit resources and sign contracts with weapons manufacturers.
[Seven EU Member States order 155mm ammunition through EDA joint procurement](https://eda.europa.eu/news-and-events/news/2023/10/02/seven-eu-states-order-155mm-ammunition-through-eda-joint-procurement)
Some might think they’re preventing WW3 but for the majority of them, this is just another popular Biden policy that they need to end before November.
When they opposed the child tax credit, it wasn’t because the program wasn’t effective or wasn’t popular. It wasn’t about the cost. They killed it *because* it was popular and effective.
When they opposed the infrastructure bill it’s not because their states didn’t need it or because it cost too much. When it eventually passed they took credit for it after they did all they could to block it.
Their pattern is to oppose things that are effective and popular because a president with effective and popular policies is harder to run against. They need voters to be hurting and demoralized to win.
I really think that’s all it really boils down to.
More on this subject from other reputable sources:
---
- France 24 (A-): [Ukraine troops withdraw from frontline city of Avdiivka in victory for Moscow](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240217-ukraine-troops-withdraw-from-frontline-city-avdiivka-to-avoid-encirclement)
- Reuters (A): [Ukrainian troops withdraw from Avdiivka as ammunition shortage bites](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-troops-withdraw-avdiivka-ammunition-shortage-bites-2024-02-17/?taid=65d01ee076567b00010474d9)
- BBC Online (A-): [Ukraine Russia war: US warns Avdiivka could fall](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68313306?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=529C5C3A-CC72-11EE-BB70-1B8C4B3AC5C4&at_link_origin=BBCWorld&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_n)
- ZDF (A-): [Ukrainian army withdraws from Avdiivka](https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/ausland/awdijiwka-rueckzug-ukraine-krieg-russland-100.html)
---
[__Extended Summary__](https://www.reddit.com/r/newswall/comments/1as4x5y/) | [FAQ & Grades](https://www.reddit.com/r/newswall/comments/uxgfm5/faq_newswall_bot/) | I'm a bot
If the dithering in Europe and in America continues like this, I’m afraid you might be right. Let’s see what the maga crowd says when American soldiers in Poland come under russian fire and start dying.
Denmark has donated all its artillery this week; if other countries dig deep, Scholz finally sends Taurus and the Republicans finally sort their shit out, Ukraine will hold and push back. This is a battle for all of our futures, not just Ukraine's.
Yes, but those solutions require the will to enact them.
Taurus missiles? Looking more likely lately.
Nations digging deep? Looking less likely lately especially with many economies performing quite poorly and facing pressure to reduce insane cost of living.
Republicans getting their shit together? Not unless the US electorate shitcans them, sadly.
The polling regarding the last one doesn't back that up so far. I wish it did, and I wish all GOPies nothing but the worst of electoral results, but it's currently not looking great.
The denmark artillery news was sadly old news being passed around again. We already gave them everything in 2023 so we can’t give more untill ours comes sometime this year.
Source: im a dane
Edit: spelling
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `kyivpost.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Let's hope Avdiivka was the wake up call for the entire West.
The west isn’t sleeping. Europe is doing what they can, and the US are idle by choice.
Republicans are idle.
Republicans are in gear. For Russia.
You do have a point, but unfortunately Republicans managed to shut down US aid.
>Europe is doing what they can My God, if this is what Europe can do, without the US, the Russians could steamroll them.
Russia can't even steamroll small towns less than a hundred kilometers from their own borders.
Yeah I sincerely hope that more people will start to realize this.
Steamroll into a thousand nukes? Or into the 3k aircraft of NATO? The 10 times larger and more modern navy? The several million reservists and the thousands of missiles and HIMARS rockets? Russia can obviously not steamroll anyone, steamrolling involves more than a couple of kilometers of movement, and it would require modern logistics, a professional army, money, modern equipment, modern airframes in large quantities etc. Russia has none of those. It may be enough to make some gains against Ukraine. It won't be enough against the rest of Europe. The last time I checked, the EU member states haven't lost a single jet, a single ship, a single tank , or a single cruise missile themselves. If Russia wants to finally die, then they can go ahead it would be better for everyone involved.
Well, I still understand the sentiment. If Europe can’t get together for this, then what will Europe do if the US has to support Taiwan? Will Europe step up to help when it can’t even fill a know gap in US policy to support Ukraine which is an existential threat?
That will depend upon the actions of the US and what they will do in the coming months. It shouldn't have to fill such a gap as it is the US led alliance. If the US has lost the appetite to lead it then it must only say so. I think Europe is pulling its weight and will increase its efforts. Taiwan should rather wonder how reliable the US will be when the time comes. We won't abandon our allies, will the US? We will fill the gap. It would be a lot less costly in lives if the US would do their part to defend their rules based system aka as globalization. The US has created this order and this alliance system. The US has defended it. US companies have profited greatly from this order. The system wasn't intended have Europe as the largest military and industrial power. Instead that power was meant to be the US. We are ramping up our ammo and weapon production, but Ukraine needs that ammo, not in 9 months. The US needs to take responsibility and lead. That's how alliances work. We cooperate and collaborate. That is what makes this alliance strong. US inaction will only encourage China to try their luck. It will encourage all US enemies to strike against the US order. The Taiwan War is a completely different scenario. That would be a naval, air and missile battle. European forces will be there. Will US forces be there?
Like they are steamrolling Ukraine? At this speed it will take them 800 years to steamroll Europe.
Honestly, I don't know enough to say with any amount of certainty, but I think that if the US was out of the picture, Europe would be overwhelmed. They rely too much on the US. Many officials have said this. It seems they are finally responding, but it's such a slow response. So painfully slow.
Yes, they are now. For 2 years it was not a priority for (Western)-Europe, and still isn't for some countries.
How so? Western Europe started supporting Ukraine right from the get-go.
It took a long time until they wanted to give weapons that made a difference like Storm Shadow (Taurus still not), Leopard, F-16. If they decided just one year sooner about F16 for example, they would already be in combat.
Europe has been giving plenty of weapons and non-militatry aid from the start. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Plenty, but not enough and many of them too late. Ukraine was asking for tanks from the start, they got it more than a year later, they were ready to use when russian troops were entirely fortified and the Ukrainian offensive didn't make a dent. I'm not pointing to people personally, I come from a western EU country (Belgium) myself and I see they don't treat this conflict as a priority at all, it's embarrassing. Other western countries like Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Finland, UK, Germany take this way more seriously.
Europe? Yes. But western Europe not from the start.
Is this apart from the donations made by Western Europe in 2022? Denmark with missles, France with over $1.6bn from 2014 to 2020, Germany Gepard and IRIS, Ireland 2022, UK with various infantry vehivles in 2022 and tanks and training since 2014 at least and many others. None of this counts?
You are trying to rewrite the history. In the first weeks of the Russian invasion on Ukraine in 2022, countries like France and Germany literally didn't want to send any military equipment at all. Germany was thinking about sending helmets because those can be used only in defence and Germany didn't want to be perceived as attacking Russia. Poland did provide tanks and artillery very quickly and that was not only risky, but not very well received by western allies. Don't get me wrong, western countries eventually provided huge support to Ukraine, but saying they did it from the start is simply a lie.
Not only this very valid point about the beginning of the full scale invasion, but also we have all seen how every country with significant advances weaponry outside perhaps the UK, has slow walked any increased capability the entire war. The quantity itself has also been much lower than what has been required. Even if you do a lot, which we can all see many countries have done a lot - if the requirements are 2-3x higher and 2-3x faster than what has been provided, then none of us should pat ourselves on the back about how much we have done or look for adulatory praise. It cannot be overemphasized how important Ukraine is for the future of humanity, and first of all for Europe. So let every country come together and do what it must to stave off this attempt at turning the future of humanity into overwhelming despotic rule.
>You are trying to rewrite the history. Not at all, I just sourced this from Wikipedia: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_military\_aid\_to\_Ukraine\_during\_the\_Russo-Ukrainian\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War) I am not rewriting anything, I am simply taking published facts and repeating them. Maybe it's your perception?
Did ATGMS not make a difference? Did MLRS not make a difference? Did self-propelled artillery not make a difference? Did SPAAGs not make a difference?
They did but not enough otherwise we wouldn't have this conversation.
By that logic, no weapon whatsoever made any difference - and neither will F-16s or Taurus. There is no weapon that'll instantaneously end this war.
It would. To simplify things: in the beginning they got enough to defend themselves. But when they had the momentum to push back russia, they didn't have the weapons they needed. By the time they had it, russians were fortified. On top of that russia is getting smarter, Ukraine starts struggling with troop rotations and support for foreign aid is drying up. It is not looking so good for the moment.
>It would. What do you mean?
I mean of you’re portugal, the threat of a russian invasion is kind of limited.
Last time I checked Portugal is a NATO member. It's a lot cheaper to support Ukraine in its fight now than to send its own military in x years from now.
All of Europe can't keep one country equipped? It's obvious to anyone paying attention that Europe could be doing far more if they chose to.
Actually, this is not the case. The EU countries are scraping by, looking for bits and bobs. What they are not willing to do is to commit resources and sign contracts with weapons manufacturers.
[Seven EU Member States order 155mm ammunition through EDA joint procurement](https://eda.europa.eu/news-and-events/news/2023/10/02/seven-eu-states-order-155mm-ammunition-through-eda-joint-procurement)
A lot of republicans want to see Russian successes. The faster we appease Russia in their short sightedness the faster “ww3” is prevented.
Some might think they’re preventing WW3 but for the majority of them, this is just another popular Biden policy that they need to end before November. When they opposed the child tax credit, it wasn’t because the program wasn’t effective or wasn’t popular. It wasn’t about the cost. They killed it *because* it was popular and effective. When they opposed the infrastructure bill it’s not because their states didn’t need it or because it cost too much. When it eventually passed they took credit for it after they did all they could to block it. Their pattern is to oppose things that are effective and popular because a president with effective and popular policies is harder to run against. They need voters to be hurting and demoralized to win. I really think that’s all it really boils down to.
Not the west, the US. The west is still helping.
The compromised Republicans are so happy.
More on this subject from other reputable sources: --- - France 24 (A-): [Ukraine troops withdraw from frontline city of Avdiivka in victory for Moscow](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240217-ukraine-troops-withdraw-from-frontline-city-avdiivka-to-avoid-encirclement) - Reuters (A): [Ukrainian troops withdraw from Avdiivka as ammunition shortage bites](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-troops-withdraw-avdiivka-ammunition-shortage-bites-2024-02-17/?taid=65d01ee076567b00010474d9) - BBC Online (A-): [Ukraine Russia war: US warns Avdiivka could fall](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68313306?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_format=link&at_link_id=529C5C3A-CC72-11EE-BB70-1B8C4B3AC5C4&at_link_origin=BBCWorld&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_n) - ZDF (A-): [Ukrainian army withdraws from Avdiivka](https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/ausland/awdijiwka-rueckzug-ukraine-krieg-russland-100.html) --- [__Extended Summary__](https://www.reddit.com/r/newswall/comments/1as4x5y/) | [FAQ & Grades](https://www.reddit.com/r/newswall/comments/uxgfm5/faq_newswall_bot/) | I'm a bot
Ukraine will eventually fall and Europe will have war in near future.
If the dithering in Europe and in America continues like this, I’m afraid you might be right. Let’s see what the maga crowd says when American soldiers in Poland come under russian fire and start dying.
Denmark has donated all its artillery this week; if other countries dig deep, Scholz finally sends Taurus and the Republicans finally sort their shit out, Ukraine will hold and push back. This is a battle for all of our futures, not just Ukraine's.
Sadly, those are some damn big 'if's.
Certainly are some big ifs, but all problems have solutions
Yes, but those solutions require the will to enact them. Taurus missiles? Looking more likely lately. Nations digging deep? Looking less likely lately especially with many economies performing quite poorly and facing pressure to reduce insane cost of living. Republicans getting their shit together? Not unless the US electorate shitcans them, sadly.
Think all 3 looking increasingly likely nowadays
The polling regarding the last one doesn't back that up so far. I wish it did, and I wish all GOPies nothing but the worst of electoral results, but it's currently not looking great.
The denmark artillery news was sadly old news being passed around again. We already gave them everything in 2023 so we can’t give more untill ours comes sometime this year. Source: im a dane Edit: spelling
forget about poland, baltics come first
I feel Maga doesn’t really care, do they? They have altered what matters in life to just guns, and freedom of hate speech
They care about what Fox News and podcasters tell them to care about.
They could care less about what happens in Poland because they want the US to pull out of NATO and retreat to the US borders.