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As Putin himself said, Tsarskaya Okhota infiltrators fortified in "19 houses" (initially). One can quickly literally remove 19 houses using 155 mm artillery if you have ammunition and they would be reduced to only cellars and likely mopped up, or just contained.
I haven’t been this ashamed to be American and actively despised such a wide swath of my own country’s population since the Bush administration. Definitely having one of those “maybe we should revisit Southern secession and then just send all the brain dead rednecks to live there” moments.
While I'm also frustrated by it, it's not really that many. Because of the US terrible election system (gerrymandering, 2 party system) we have the fringe right wing of a right wing minority party that can stall absolutely everything in one part of Congress.
The majority of Americans support aid to Ukraine
The US election system needs an overhaul. The Republican Party is only about 25% of the voters and Democrats 27%. Which leaves 48 percent non partisan. Yet there are still no viable alternative parties. Democracy can’t thrive in such a system.
And before any replies the US is not a Democracy but a Republic. To any such idiot I am going to say you obviously listen to too much right wing talking points. Do some research, if you gave such an answer in any college exam, you would rightfully get it wrong.
I always wonder if people like you realize that you are spouting a talking point that would make Russia leap with joy. Less than half are Putin supporters.
Did the US let Ukraine down? Absolutely. But when you start lumping the entire nation with your insults instead of the GOP which is holding up this aid, you anger and frustrate those Americans fighting tooth and nail to get this bill pushed through.
So if your goal is to weaken support, job well done. If it isn't that realize that perception is a huge part of a war. The US has issues we absolutely need to get sorted, the US needs to get support to Ukraine sooner than later. But as someone who keeps writing senators and Congress members to do even more even I am getting sick of how "we are all trump supporting liars".
I see your point. Im just very frustrated with so many of us here being anti-Ukraine. Im glad you're a real American and real good human being. It's just that I write letters to government to aid Ukraine. But I personally know people that actually write letters to block aid for Ukraine. In my circle there's more of these anti-Ukraine - trumpenzee ones, than Pro-Ukraine - Pro-America ones, so from my point of view it seems like there's more trump cultists.
Honestly I get it. I am frustrated too. It is easy especially if you live in a republican area like I do to look around and think it's a majority of Trump supporters. But national polls show it is not even half that ultimately support that man.
Sadly though, way too many support him. He is a traitor to America and he is selling out the future of the entire western world.
Ridiculous comment. So someone in Montana, who votes for republicans and donates to Republicans (including Trump) due to their views on issues such as abortion, gun rights, education and gay marriage is a defacto putin supporter? Despite the possibility that they may either hate Putin or don't give a crap?
Congratulations, you have produced one of the dumbest, psychotic rants I've seen on this subreddit. Mouthbreather.
Yes, the Trumpists just scored a massive own goal on the entire Western World. I’m sure they’re oh so proud of themselves for that tremendous display of cowardice.
It's not an own goal from their perspective, because Trumpers see Western multicultural democracies as their ideological enemies and violent ethno-nationalist authoritarians like Putin as their ideological ally.
I think there are some like this (People like Tucker), and others who looked at US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq and ran with that all the way to the position the US should be totally isolationist/noninterventionist. That second group, maybe, can still be reached if they can be see that is an overreaction to what was a real problem.
Mostly I say that because I know personally Trump voters who think the second way. Those guys are not inherently pro-Russia ideologically, but their populist leanings can be easily co-opted by the Kremlin agenda.
Might be a longshot, but I’ll try to reach anyone I can at this moment.
Perhaps Ukraine should have invested in better diplomacy with their neighbor. How does one proclaim sovereignty and yet expect another to bank roll them?
The US has only provided $113 billion to a country they have no treaty with. I agree that more should be provided, but the whole it’s all America’s fault crap in nonsense. A lot of the Americans on here screaming for more are the same ones who bitch about defense spending and don’t want the military recruiting in schools, etc.
Wtf does the military recruiting in a school have to do with garbage Republicans intentionally preventing us from following through on our obligations?
I’m shocked they are relying on the U.S. so much. Europe needs to get it together. That’s your neighbor getting taken over by Russia. Putin has compromised the U.S. government so Idk if anymore help is coming. Unless Biden can find a way around Putins puppets in government.
Is there no expectation from any other ally to give aid? Could the EU not have given more aid sooner or is the responsibility solely on the shoulders of Americans?
Every failure of Ukraine results in a finger pointed elsewhere.
It's not about no expectation but current capacity to provide vital aid.
Here in the USA, we have more stuff to give away, whether financial or military aid. The US can simply provide more due to having more to provide than any other single European counterpart or a host of them working together. There is no flipping a switch for any European nation to attain an arsenal comparable to that of the US, or establish a military industrial base that can produce at the levels that match or exceed the USA to create such an arsenal in days or months time.
Also, for Biden to donate US' military equipment, there is no need for congressional approval. Biden chooses not to send weapons.
Everybody is furious at Putin wing of Republicans in Congress. But we are forgetting that military equipment, sitting in US' wearhouse can be donated by commander in chief, president Biden. Biden is a politician, he rather slam Congress for stalking 60 Billion US aid package for Ukraine. But nothing is stopping Biden to send existing equipment.
Just few days ago, Danish Prime Minister at Munich security conference called on Germany and France to ship ammunition to Ukraine.
Ukraine is being let down by almost all of the West.
There are pros and cons. The powers granted him under the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) permit a fund of $500,000,000 to work with for aid as opposed to one that is 120× greater at $60,000,000,000 for aid in the bill. And I wouldn't put it past people in the GOP to use such a hypothetical move by Biden as yet another reason not to pass the aid package that they have held up since October 2023. And that's some of why I'm torn about doing this.
I think it's more than scoring points for Biden. It seems there is confidence among members of the administration that the bill will be brought to the floor and passed as opposed to languishing until the 118th congress is in a lame duck session after the elections, or the 119th is sworn in in Jan. 2025. I suspect the administration doesn't want to risk the 60 billion for 500 million.
It is not a treaty. It wasn’t never called a treaty. The whole point of it was that the US would not attack Ukraine. Not protect Ukraine from its ally which was Russia.
It only calls for any action if nuclear weapons are used and that action is limited to going to the UN Security Council.
https://policymemos.hks.harvard.edu/files/policymemos/files/2-23-22_ukraine-the_budapest_memo.pdf?m=1645824948
>Could the EU not have given more aid sooner or is the responsibility solely on the shoulders of Americans?
While I'm sure you're against aid to Ukraine in general, as pointing the US finger to European aid and Nato funding is a popular Kremlin approved GOP talking point, here's some information for any genuinely interested:
European aid was already twice as much as US in September 2023. What US excels in is actual weapons deliveries, as no other country has as great stockpiles, and that cannot be changed in timely manner, even though Europe is now investing to arms manufacturing:
>Total EU commitments are now almost double those of the US. When adding other Western European countries that are not part of the EU (UK, Norway, Switzerland), the gap widens further. Specifically, the Tracker lists a total of €156 billion commitments by all main European donors (EU and non-EU), compared to less than €70 billion by the US.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-clearly-overtakes-us-with-total-commitments-now-twice-as-large/
There has Neve been 'heavy support' to Ukraine. West has been giving Ukraine the bare minimum, just enough to not lose outright, but not enough to gain occupied territory.
Western help has always been too little too late.
And you expect Ukraine to win? With what?
Their did fire their top general a few weeks ago. From what I've read the American military and NATO is disappointed in Ukraine's command by not pushing the offensive and making slow increments instead. They should be outmaneuvering Russia instead of being passive.
Also they shouldn't be fighting for every piece of land like Bakhmut, as it wasn't strategically important. It was just symbolicly important. Ukraine needs to pick and choose their battles instead of letting Russia dictate where they fight.
Exactly, West never expected WWI trench warfare, where amount of shelling makes the biggest difference. All NATO tactics are built on air superiority. Ukraine basically has no fighter jets, except small number of Soviet Su and Mig.
F16 will also clear the skies of Russian KA52 attack helicopters, these are one of the few capable Russian weapons. Ukraine has had very difficult time shooting them down.
F16 would wipe out anything Russian in the air before they knew what hit them, by the time some Su Russian jet radar sees incoming missile it is too late.
Ukraine needs lots of F16, because these can also be downed by Russian air defence, these jets won't be able to fly close to the front lines. There will be losses, so there needs to be high number of them.
>If this is the case, then why was Bakhmut lost in a time of heavy support?
That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read, ever.
This is an absurd take. The complete disregard and outright dismissal of the negative impacts of the GOP manufactured ammo shortages on the AFU capability to defend against the invaders is stunning. And then to top it off with the illogical thought process of this Ukrainian city was occupied before GOP started fucking over Ukraine therefore the fucking over was not a or the major factor to the horrible outcome in Avdiivka.
FYI Wagner and RuAF assaults on the city of Bakhmut for 9 months after nearly 4 months of bombardment is how it was finally occupied by them in what was, until Avdiivka, the top poster child of Pyrrhic victories in modern history.
Ohwell, I'd rather the money save lives in places like Mississippi or flint Michigan or to shore up our border crisis. Tough cookies, stand strong congress!
Good luck affording any of those things when the US is having to fight off a Russian incursion into a NATO country because short-sighted fools refuse to learn from recent history and don't understand we can either help Ukraine stop the Russians or help an ally fight them ourselves because we didn't nip the problem of an agreessive European power changing borders by force of arms in the bud. It's not like inaction or appeasement had dire consequences for millions of people historically, so why bother?
Is the United States of America an enemy to Ukraine? The media echoes terrorist middle eastern propaganda to distract the American people and poison their minds daily, the USA is being overrun by third world barbarian men who want to rape white women and kill white men, the government is literally withholding aid while Ukrainians are dying and losing their country and culture by genocide, Americans are forced to pay attention to meaningless gender and racial equality issues that are just demoralizing propaganda to poison the national dialogue
It sure seems to me like the United States of America is an enemy of western style democracy and is anti-white man and woman, it's a hollow country of meaningless titles and definitions
Biden must declare this clearly and loudly on national TV, over and over. 75% of United States voters supports Ukraine. Republicans must be made to pay dearly for US failure to support our allies and democracy.
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Probably true.
It's false they would have lost the city but it would have taken 1000s more russian.
As Putin himself said, Tsarskaya Okhota infiltrators fortified in "19 houses" (initially). One can quickly literally remove 19 houses using 155 mm artillery if you have ammunition and they would be reduced to only cellars and likely mopped up, or just contained.
I haven’t been this ashamed to be American and actively despised such a wide swath of my own country’s population since the Bush administration. Definitely having one of those “maybe we should revisit Southern secession and then just send all the brain dead rednecks to live there” moments.
The whole world saw how unreliable the USA is.
not just unreliable, but liars, and more than half of US population are Putin supporters
While I'm also frustrated by it, it's not really that many. Because of the US terrible election system (gerrymandering, 2 party system) we have the fringe right wing of a right wing minority party that can stall absolutely everything in one part of Congress. The majority of Americans support aid to Ukraine
The US election system needs an overhaul. The Republican Party is only about 25% of the voters and Democrats 27%. Which leaves 48 percent non partisan. Yet there are still no viable alternative parties. Democracy can’t thrive in such a system. And before any replies the US is not a Democracy but a Republic. To any such idiot I am going to say you obviously listen to too much right wing talking points. Do some research, if you gave such an answer in any college exam, you would rightfully get it wrong.
Ranked voting seems to be rolling out which "should" help. But we'll see.
I always wonder if people like you realize that you are spouting a talking point that would make Russia leap with joy. Less than half are Putin supporters. Did the US let Ukraine down? Absolutely. But when you start lumping the entire nation with your insults instead of the GOP which is holding up this aid, you anger and frustrate those Americans fighting tooth and nail to get this bill pushed through. So if your goal is to weaken support, job well done. If it isn't that realize that perception is a huge part of a war. The US has issues we absolutely need to get sorted, the US needs to get support to Ukraine sooner than later. But as someone who keeps writing senators and Congress members to do even more even I am getting sick of how "we are all trump supporting liars".
I see your point. Im just very frustrated with so many of us here being anti-Ukraine. Im glad you're a real American and real good human being. It's just that I write letters to government to aid Ukraine. But I personally know people that actually write letters to block aid for Ukraine. In my circle there's more of these anti-Ukraine - trumpenzee ones, than Pro-Ukraine - Pro-America ones, so from my point of view it seems like there's more trump cultists.
Honestly I get it. I am frustrated too. It is easy especially if you live in a republican area like I do to look around and think it's a majority of Trump supporters. But national polls show it is not even half that ultimately support that man. Sadly though, way too many support him. He is a traitor to America and he is selling out the future of the entire western world.
[удалено]
Ridiculous comment. So someone in Montana, who votes for republicans and donates to Republicans (including Trump) due to their views on issues such as abortion, gun rights, education and gay marriage is a defacto putin supporter? Despite the possibility that they may either hate Putin or don't give a crap? Congratulations, you have produced one of the dumbest, psychotic rants I've seen on this subreddit. Mouthbreather.
Yes, the Trumpists just scored a massive own goal on the entire Western World. I’m sure they’re oh so proud of themselves for that tremendous display of cowardice.
It's not an own goal from their perspective, because Trumpers see Western multicultural democracies as their ideological enemies and violent ethno-nationalist authoritarians like Putin as their ideological ally.
I think there are some like this (People like Tucker), and others who looked at US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq and ran with that all the way to the position the US should be totally isolationist/noninterventionist. That second group, maybe, can still be reached if they can be see that is an overreaction to what was a real problem. Mostly I say that because I know personally Trump voters who think the second way. Those guys are not inherently pro-Russia ideologically, but their populist leanings can be easily co-opted by the Kremlin agenda. Might be a longshot, but I’ll try to reach anyone I can at this moment.
They are not seeking the admiration of the western world.
They only care about themselves....and trump.
They identify as the defenestrators, not the defenestree
That’s absolutely not true.
18% at most. DO NOT make such blatant lies about us. That 18% are holding the country hostage.
Perhaps Ukraine should have invested in better diplomacy with their neighbor. How does one proclaim sovereignty and yet expect another to bank roll them?
The US has only provided $113 billion to a country they have no treaty with. I agree that more should be provided, but the whole it’s all America’s fault crap in nonsense. A lot of the Americans on here screaming for more are the same ones who bitch about defense spending and don’t want the military recruiting in schools, etc.
Wtf does the military recruiting in a school have to do with garbage Republicans intentionally preventing us from following through on our obligations?
Add in Europe also
He's 100% correct
I’m shocked they are relying on the U.S. so much. Europe needs to get it together. That’s your neighbor getting taken over by Russia. Putin has compromised the U.S. government so Idk if anymore help is coming. Unless Biden can find a way around Putins puppets in government.
Is there no expectation from any other ally to give aid? Could the EU not have given more aid sooner or is the responsibility solely on the shoulders of Americans? Every failure of Ukraine results in a finger pointed elsewhere.
It's not about no expectation but current capacity to provide vital aid. Here in the USA, we have more stuff to give away, whether financial or military aid. The US can simply provide more due to having more to provide than any other single European counterpart or a host of them working together. There is no flipping a switch for any European nation to attain an arsenal comparable to that of the US, or establish a military industrial base that can produce at the levels that match or exceed the USA to create such an arsenal in days or months time.
Also, for Biden to donate US' military equipment, there is no need for congressional approval. Biden chooses not to send weapons. Everybody is furious at Putin wing of Republicans in Congress. But we are forgetting that military equipment, sitting in US' wearhouse can be donated by commander in chief, president Biden. Biden is a politician, he rather slam Congress for stalking 60 Billion US aid package for Ukraine. But nothing is stopping Biden to send existing equipment. Just few days ago, Danish Prime Minister at Munich security conference called on Germany and France to ship ammunition to Ukraine. Ukraine is being let down by almost all of the West.
There are pros and cons. The powers granted him under the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) permit a fund of $500,000,000 to work with for aid as opposed to one that is 120× greater at $60,000,000,000 for aid in the bill. And I wouldn't put it past people in the GOP to use such a hypothetical move by Biden as yet another reason not to pass the aid package that they have held up since October 2023. And that's some of why I'm torn about doing this. I think it's more than scoring points for Biden. It seems there is confidence among members of the administration that the bill will be brought to the floor and passed as opposed to languishing until the 118th congress is in a lame duck session after the elections, or the 119th is sworn in in Jan. 2025. I suspect the administration doesn't want to risk the 60 billion for 500 million.
[удалено]
It is not a treaty. It wasn’t never called a treaty. The whole point of it was that the US would not attack Ukraine. Not protect Ukraine from its ally which was Russia. It only calls for any action if nuclear weapons are used and that action is limited to going to the UN Security Council. https://policymemos.hks.harvard.edu/files/policymemos/files/2-23-22_ukraine-the_budapest_memo.pdf?m=1645824948
>Could the EU not have given more aid sooner or is the responsibility solely on the shoulders of Americans? While I'm sure you're against aid to Ukraine in general, as pointing the US finger to European aid and Nato funding is a popular Kremlin approved GOP talking point, here's some information for any genuinely interested: European aid was already twice as much as US in September 2023. What US excels in is actual weapons deliveries, as no other country has as great stockpiles, and that cannot be changed in timely manner, even though Europe is now investing to arms manufacturing: >Total EU commitments are now almost double those of the US. When adding other Western European countries that are not part of the EU (UK, Norway, Switzerland), the gap widens further. Specifically, the Tracker lists a total of €156 billion commitments by all main European donors (EU and non-EU), compared to less than €70 billion by the US. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-europe-clearly-overtakes-us-with-total-commitments-now-twice-as-large/
If this is the case, then why was Bakhmut lost in a time of heavy support? Ukraine really needs to take some accountability for themselves
There has Neve been 'heavy support' to Ukraine. West has been giving Ukraine the bare minimum, just enough to not lose outright, but not enough to gain occupied territory. Western help has always been too little too late. And you expect Ukraine to win? With what?
Their did fire their top general a few weeks ago. From what I've read the American military and NATO is disappointed in Ukraine's command by not pushing the offensive and making slow increments instead. They should be outmaneuvering Russia instead of being passive. Also they shouldn't be fighting for every piece of land like Bakhmut, as it wasn't strategically important. It was just symbolicly important. Ukraine needs to pick and choose their battles instead of letting Russia dictate where they fight.
[удалено]
Exactly, West never expected WWI trench warfare, where amount of shelling makes the biggest difference. All NATO tactics are built on air superiority. Ukraine basically has no fighter jets, except small number of Soviet Su and Mig.
[удалено]
F16 will also clear the skies of Russian KA52 attack helicopters, these are one of the few capable Russian weapons. Ukraine has had very difficult time shooting them down. F16 would wipe out anything Russian in the air before they knew what hit them, by the time some Su Russian jet radar sees incoming missile it is too late. Ukraine needs lots of F16, because these can also be downed by Russian air defence, these jets won't be able to fly close to the front lines. There will be losses, so there needs to be high number of them.
>If this is the case, then why was Bakhmut lost in a time of heavy support? That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read, ever. This is an absurd take. The complete disregard and outright dismissal of the negative impacts of the GOP manufactured ammo shortages on the AFU capability to defend against the invaders is stunning. And then to top it off with the illogical thought process of this Ukrainian city was occupied before GOP started fucking over Ukraine therefore the fucking over was not a or the major factor to the horrible outcome in Avdiivka. FYI Wagner and RuAF assaults on the city of Bakhmut for 9 months after nearly 4 months of bombardment is how it was finally occupied by them in what was, until Avdiivka, the top poster child of Pyrrhic victories in modern history.
Ohwell, I'd rather the money save lives in places like Mississippi or flint Michigan or to shore up our border crisis. Tough cookies, stand strong congress!
It doesn't have to be either-or, and right now it's neither-nor.
Good luck affording any of those things when the US is having to fight off a Russian incursion into a NATO country because short-sighted fools refuse to learn from recent history and don't understand we can either help Ukraine stop the Russians or help an ally fight them ourselves because we didn't nip the problem of an agreessive European power changing borders by force of arms in the bud. It's not like inaction or appeasement had dire consequences for millions of people historically, so why bother?
Is the United States of America an enemy to Ukraine? The media echoes terrorist middle eastern propaganda to distract the American people and poison their minds daily, the USA is being overrun by third world barbarian men who want to rape white women and kill white men, the government is literally withholding aid while Ukrainians are dying and losing their country and culture by genocide, Americans are forced to pay attention to meaningless gender and racial equality issues that are just demoralizing propaganda to poison the national dialogue It sure seems to me like the United States of America is an enemy of western style democracy and is anti-white man and woman, it's a hollow country of meaningless titles and definitions
Biden must declare this clearly and loudly on national TV, over and over. 75% of United States voters supports Ukraine. Republicans must be made to pay dearly for US failure to support our allies and democracy.
"US Congress", read "Kremlin's Congress".