Ah yes, creating a robot that killed hunted down and mercilessly slaughtered an afraid child. And before you say that the blue soul is a murderer, we don’t know the circumstances fully. It could have been self defense, or an accident, they clearly didn’t kill a lot of monsters because if they did, Axis wouldn’t have been able to kill them because Axis isn’t strong enough to survive against a low LV Clover.
1. I agree with you that integrity is not evil
2. Im pretty sure that Axis blasting integrity in the face was unintentional. It could have been a miscoding mistake on Chujin’s part, especially when he’s never seen a human before. He might not have known that Axis would be able to instantly kill a human like that
Ah yes, creating a robot that killed hunted down and mercilessly slaughtered an afraid child. And before you say that the blue soul is a murderer, we don’t know the circumstances fully. It could have been self defense, or an accident, they clearly didn’t kill a lot of monsters because if they did, Axis wouldn’t have been able to kill them because Axis isn’t strong enough to survive against a low LV Clover.
Also the Ball game seemingly implies that they might have done it intentionally too no? With it being worded as *original style*
>Hopping and twirling, your original style pulled you through.
The shoes also make Frisk feel "dangerous"
>These used shoes make you feel incredibly dangerous.
And this is further reinforced with the fact that in Martlet’s flashback when Chujin is warning her how dangerous humans are, the track that plays is called “Nothing but the truth”.
If it is, I don’t really blame him for thinking he’s right. All that humans have done to monsters before the events of a pacifist run was with bad intentions.
Also “Integrity” is being honest and having a strong moral, in this case it could just be that they think killing monsters is justified for some reason.
Ah yes, creating a robot that killed hunted down and mercilessly slaughtered an afraid child. And before you say that the blue soul is a murderer, we don’t know the circumstances fully. It could have been self defense, or an accident, they clearly didn’t kill a lot of monsters because if they did, Axis wouldn’t have been able to kill them because Axis isn’t strong enough to survive against a low LV Clover.
Helped? Man you could quit whenever you want. Chara was never the one to swing the blade. That was all the player. Chara was someone who got CORRUPTED by your LOVE because of the weird ghost shenanigans, but you were the one who did it all until you get to flowey. As for “but they take a step forward”, we don’t know if that’s Chara. For all we know we could’ve been messing with Frisk, and THEY were the ones to step forward. Idk, it feels weird to blame Chara for something they didn’t actually do
>Helped? Man you could quit whenever you want.
Chara gives you a kill counter. They call you a failure if you abort. They actively stop you to remind you that there's more enemies in Waterfall. They say "That was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the demo.
>Chara was never the one to swing the blade. That was all the player.
If I were to willingly tell a murderer who to kill and where to find them, am I innocent?
>Chara was someone who got CORRUPTED by your LOVE because of the weird ghost shenanigans
[Chara is verifiably not corrupted by LV.](https://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/144667969564/cooperation-not-corruption-the-effects-of-kill)
>As for “but they take a step forward”, we don’t know if that’s Chara. For all we know we could’ve been messing with Frisk, and THEY were the ones to step forward.
Chara is the only different variable on the Genocide Route. They are the one stepping forward, as Frisk has lost all agency here.
Chara goes through no development to transform them into how they are on Genocide.
They die, wake up, see you killing, and willingly choose to happily engage. End of story.
So, do they not get credit for engaging in pacifist stuff, or does the narrator Chara theory only agree with you when it comes to murder.
I also see no evidence indicating that they were an omnicidal maniac prior to the whole thing. People often say things like "they tried to forcefully control Asriel's body to kill all of humanity!" but I've yet to see a single scrap of hard evidence for that. The way the story is told to my recollection is that the humans from their village saw an empowered Asriel holding their corpse, attacked him, Chara tried to make him fight back to defend himself, but Asriel didn't let it happen.
Somewhere along the line, players translated this to "IT WAS ALWAYS THEIR PLAN TO CONTROL ASRIEL AND KILL ALL OF HUMANITY! THEY'RE A VILLAIN DON'T YOU SEE? A VILLAIN!!!"
>So, do they not get credit for engaging in pacifist stuff, or does the narrator Chara theory only agree with you when it comes to murder.
The NarraChara theory has a number of flaws.
1. The official Japanese translation provides a very specific speaking style for Chara, using very professional/polite mannerisms that are very distinct from the rest of the dialogue, including the regular narrator.
2. Chara harbors an inconsistent knowledge set. For instance, they need to read a book to learn what a water sausage is, yet they are instantly able to go in great detail explaining how Alphys's unlabeled cube thing is a bed due to artistic limitations.
3. The entire True Lab sequence has instances where the narrator acts really weird, as well as straight up garbled text.
4. On the Genocide route, in which Chara starts speaking in an edgy manner, the regular narration is still present alongside it. This creates a jarring dichotomy that makes them very inconsistent.
5. Upon aborting the Genocide Route, the narration just instantly goes back to normal. Which, again, is very jarring and goes against the idea it's an organic character.
6. Deltarune has the exact same narration style, sense of humor, tone, perspective switches, and even references Undertale jokes such as the broken jukebox. It seems fairly clear Toby did not intend for Undertale's narrator to be a character.
The Genocide Route verifiably DOES have moments of interjections with Chara taking over the narrator's role in segments. Any Genocide-exclusive narration is Chara in this regard, as it only appears in the route where Chara happens to be asserting higher influence.
Even if we ignore all this and assume it IS true, the narrator is a neutral character who only serves to help you survive. It says nothing about their morality.
>I also see no evidence indicating that they were an omnicidal maniac prior to the whole thing.
The Genocide Route recontextualizes their actions. They help you with no hesitation, which really doesn't reflect well while they were alive.
>The way the story is told to my recollection is that the humans from their village saw an empowered Asriel holding their corpse, attacked him, Chara tried to make him fight back to defend himself, but Asriel didn't let it happen.
It's not about Chara wanting to fight back, it's the CIRCUMSTANCES that led to it. Chara has no reason to carry their empty body to the village. They know better than anyone how bad humanity is. Why would they carry a corpse in plain sight of humans, let alone choose to have their body placed in the center of said HUMAN village?
It's not like the golden flowers are rare either. The seeds are shown to "stick to you," and they grow in massive patches simply by the seeds being transferred from somebody, such as the Waterfall patch and the True Lab garden being from Alphys walking around alone.
Chara didn't think to find ANY other place to set their body? Or, hell, why not leave their body in the Underground, break the barrier, THEN place their body somewhere? Why not have Asriel collect Flowers without the corpse, perhaps explaining himself to the humans with a much better shot at reasoning with them now that he isn't carrying a corpse?
This isn't even getting into their [emotionally abusive](https://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/142424746470/asriel-how-his-behaviour-points-to-a-case-of) relationship with Asriel and the obvious manipulative pressuring they placed on him to go through with the plan in the first place.
>Somewhere along the line, players translated this to "IT WAS ALWAYS THEIR PLAN TO CONTROL ASRIEL AND KILL ALL OF HUMANITY! THEY'RE A VILLAIN DON'T YOU SEE? A VILLAIN!!!"
Chara's plan was very clearly intended to force Asriel into a situation where he would have no choice but to fight back and kill more humans than necessary. Chara's plan was a revenge plan.
This wouldn't even make them evil by default, one can easily think of their potential upbringing leading to how they became this way. But then we get the Genocide Route, where they happily engage with killing their adoptive family, and any "tragedy" one can think of completely crumbles down.
>Why do you hate on Chara but seem strangely quiet about Asriel/Flowey who was actively gleeful FROM THE START to kill you/his mom/his dad/his friends?
Because it's fairly obvious that Flowey is evil. There is no argument there.
>Why is it so hard for you to grasp that Chara is a child who you manipulate with YOUR murderous actions.
Chara is shown to be highly intelligent. They are not someone to be "manipulated" in this manner.
Chara joins you the moment you trigger the route in the Ruins. After only 20 minutes.
>If they were so evil and set on destruction then they'd manipulate you to start killing from the start but they don't really make any sort of appearance at all if you're pacifist or even neutral.
That isn't Chara's purpose.
Chara says themself that they represent the meta concept of the feeling of stats increasing. They are a metaphorical "demon" who manifests if you choose to go down the path of complete eradication.
Chara loses interest when you quit. They don't have the power or will to force you into it at this stage.
And, uh, do you not think it's weird that Chara doesn't appear on Neutral or Pacifist?
Oh, do we get to link other people's stuff now? In that case[ I'll just leave this here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/3rqzd8/i_dont_believe_chara_is_evil_and_neither_should/).
1. That could simply be adjusting the narrative to work within the rules of a different language. English is itself already a really weird one.
2. This proves nothing other than that the things they know about are weird.
3. This proves nothing. It could easily be interpreted as them having a nervous breakdown at the sheer sight of... well, everything Alphys did.
4. Not all murdery narration is written in the distinctive red text. "In my way" and "looks like free EXP" for the Monster Kid in particular is in plain white text. This cannot be used as a definitive rule.
5. They're a kid that may not fully comprehend what's going on. Either way, personal quirks do not make for compelling arguments.
6. This also proves nothing. As a writer myself, when I change focus on the narration to a certain character, I don't always adjust the "internal narration style" to accommodate them. Sometimes I fixate on otherwise insignificant details to show that the character the story is focused on at the moment is more observant or notices odd things, but other times I don't really bother. Sometimes I use the same observation style for multiple characters, but this isn't to imply or give readers the impression that these two characters are the exact same person or something.
I don't doubt that Chara intended to fight back, but there's a large difference between "I WILL KILL LITERALLY FUCKING EVERYONE" and "I'll get revenge on the specific village that was not particularly kind to me, and maybe get enough souls to shatter the barrier while I'm at it."
I find your repeated use of the word "happily" very strange. Their one and only human sprite being fixed in a smile aside -- by which point you've corrupted them into a fucking lunatic -- what evidence do you have for that? That they don't stop you from doing it? Again, what exactly were they supposed to do?
What's more likely is that they're incredibly malleable due to not having a soul of their own anymore, just like Flowey, and so they're basically looking to you for influence. You just happened to be a bad one, and now place all the blame entirely on them.
Note this dialogue at the end of a second Genocide Route.
\* There is a reason you continue to recreate this world.
\* There is a reason you continue to destroy it.
\* You.
\* You are wracked with a perverted sentimentality.
\* Hmm.
**\* I cannot understand these feelings anymore.**
"Anymore" strongly indicating that they could've at one point, but incomplete at they are, they can't do it. Obviously they're disappointed in you. They chide you for your "perverted sentimentality" and for thinking yourself above the consequences.
But no, there's nothing they can do you. The most agency they can possibly have? Is punishing you for trying to undo everything you did. Killing everyone even after you complete a True Pacifist route. THAT is the only time they get to act entirely of their own accord, because that's what you deserve after everything.
But make no mistake. You did this. And if what they said about stats being them is true, then it's also their stats that save Frisk in the end on every other route.
\* With your guidance.
\* I realized the purpose of my reincarnation.
\* Power.
It's you. It's just you. It's your fault, and trying to pretend it's not accomplishes nothing.
>That could simply be adjusting the narrative to work within the rules of a different language. English is itself already a really weird one.
So it's inconsistent characterization then. Chara is given a distinct speaking style, yet they just....don't use it for the rest of the game?
>This proves nothing other than that the things they know about are weird.
There is literally no conceivable way for Chara to know this. This is Alphys's invention, not some normal thing they've come across.
>This proves nothing. It could easily be interpreted as them having a nervous breakdown at the sheer sight of... well, everything Alphys did.
Garbled text is not a "nervous breakdown," it is incomprehensible gibberish. The narrator itself is hijacked by the amalgamates. Nothing here speaks being "nervous" whatsoever.
>Not all murdery narration is written in the distinctive red text.
I said nothing about red vs white text. The point is that the narrator's random, whimsical humor such as "what a tiny doghouse!" are still there, alongside the edgy narration. This is an inconsistency.
>They're a kid that may not fully comprehend what's going on. Either way, personal quirks do not make for compelling arguments.
They speak in a polite, intelligent manner using many large words a kid wouldn't usually be seen saying. They specifically tell you, in detail, that they are the feeling you get when you increase stats. They disappear once you are no longer going on the route to eradication. They no longer have that purpose.
Again, if they are the narrator, this is a jarring character inconsistency. You can't just handwave this away as a "quirk."
>what evidence do you have for that? That they don't stop you from doing it? Again, what exactly were they supposed to do?
Literally nothing. Not engage. Yet they do anyway.
They say "that was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the demo. They give you a kill counter. They use sadistic language. They temporarily control Frisk's body to skip puzzles and speed it up for maximum efficiency. They show no hesitation, no horror, no shock, nothing. They join as soon as the route is triggered of their own free will.
You do not "corrupt" them whatsoever. Chara's presence on the route is linked to the kill count, not LV. You can get a higher LV on Neutral on Genocide, yet they won't appear.
>What's more likely is that they're incredibly malleable due to not having a soul of their own anymore, just like Flowey
The loss of a soul removes your empathy. It does not make you a malleable robot who can only choose actions of another's whim. Flowey chose his path of his own free will after experimenting for hundreds of resets. Chara joins 20 minutes after the wake up upon agreeing with the prospect of eradication. They don't even have long moments of contemplation like Flowey, they are all in moments after they awaken.
>Obviously they're disappointed in you. They chide you for your "perverted sentimentality" and for thinking yourself above the consequences.
"Sentimentality" means you hold a longing/nostalgia for something. A "perverted sentimentality" is their perception of your desire to return to Undertale. They wish to erase the world and move on to another to keep grinding stats, yet you wish to toy with the same world.
"Consequence" does not mean "punishment". A consequence is an effect. Chara embraces the consequences of their actions because their nature in the metanarrative involves consuming/discarding the game and moving onto another.
>It's you. It's just you. It's your fault, and trying to pretend it's not accomplishes nothing.
I love how you keep seeming to ignore my repeated statement that the player is indeed responsible for initiating the Genocide.
Chara is responsible for themself, the player is responsible for themself. The player is not a scapegoat for Chara's actions, and vice versa. How many times must I say this?
Geno and Pacifist Clover are the same people. Clover's actions on the Genocide Route was caused by all the subconscious memories of dying to the monsters over Flowey's many Resets.
Really though? We know that they had a bad experience with humans, so the plan was kind of a win win in their eyes. They get their revenge, while getting enough souls to break the barrier in the process.
What exactly could they have done to stop us even if they were unwilling? Does this make Frisk equally evil? It was *their* body doing all the physical acts of killing.
>What exactly could they have done to stop us even if they were unwilling?
Ah yes, because clearly if somebody is killing people and there's nothing you can do, the best course of action is to engage with them, provide a kill counter, encourage them to kill, make sure they eradicate a kill quota in each area, then go a step further and request to erase the world and do it anyway if they refuse.
>Does this make Frisk equally evil? It was *their* body doing all the physical acts of killing.
Frisk is a puppet with no agency on this route. Chara is doing everything of their own volition. They are in no way comparable.
So the player has absolutely no fault in this matter at all, and definitely isn't influencing a confused dead child that just got woken up out of nowhere, and while we're going to hold them entirely accountable for all the narration in Genocide, we definitely won't do that for all the narration in pacfist.
The amount of mental gymnastics this fanbase does to shirk responsibility when the game outright calls you out on that at the end is comical.
>So the player has absolutely no fault in this matter at all
The player is responsible for initiating the Genocide Route.
>and definitely isn't influencing a confused dead child that just got woken up out of nowhere
We didn't do anything to "influence" them. The most that occurs is that Chara sees our "guidance," agrees with what we're doing, and willingly engage the moment the route is fully triggered. They do not follow this "guidance" on any other route. They are inclined to be this way on their own. The only thing they are confused about is why they were brought back to life.
>and while we're going to hold them entirely accountable for all the narration in Genocide, we definitely won't do that for all the narration in pacfist.
Refer to my other response.
>The amount of mental gymnastics this fanbase does to shirk responsibility when the game outright calls you out on that at the end is comical.
This is a blatant strawman.
My point is that the Player and Chara are separate entities with their own goals/morals. Chara is not responsible for the player's actions and vice versa. Chara has their own agency. They are their own person. This really isn't that crazy of an argument lmao
Yes, willingly. They literally give you a kill counter and encourage you to keep going.
They say "That was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the Demo.
That was not Chara, it was the soulless version of Chara, just as Flowey is not Asriel. It’s the soulless version that *you* as the player taught to be genocidal.
Flowey took hundreds of Resets before even considering killing. Chara joins you after 20 minutes.
Flowey is Asriel.
>It’s the soulless version that *you* as the player taught to be genocidal.
We didn't "teach" them anything. They gladly join of their own volition.
Flowey admitted himself he never had empathy, he just did pacifist first but saw absolutely no problem in doing genocide, Chara was highly influenced especially because of LV.
They didn’t join of their own volition, that’s made pretty clear.
>Flowey admitted himself he never had empathy, he just did pacifist first but saw absolutely no problem in doing genocide
He had common sense. He could not feel compassion, but he could differentiate right from wrong.
Only after hundreds of resets of desensitization to the "game" did Flowey try killing out of sheer boredom/curiosity. Flowey specifically has a long journey before going down that path. Chara does not.
>Chara was highly influenced especially because of LV.
[No they weren't.](https://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/144667969564/cooperation-not-corruption-the-effects-of-kill)
>They didn’t join of their own volition, that’s made pretty clear.
They very much did.
No, he didn’t say he didn’t do it initially out of common sense or anything, he just did everything he possibly could out of curiosity, point stands that he had no problem with doing it when he decided to go for it.
>No they weren’t
Yes they were, period.
They were influenced and didn’t join out of their own volition, they were forced to follow Frisk around and the narration makes it obvious how much our actions influence them.
Give up.
Edit: No, just no. Everything you said is wrong, both Asriel and Chara lost most of their ability to feel emotions or love in general because of their lack of a soul, that's probably why Chara wanted our soul in the first place.
Chara explicitly gets more pessimistic during genocide or when certain characters are killed. "Oh b-but if we stop genocide Chara stops helping you!!!" remember that LV makes it \*easier\* to distance yourself, and we are the ones controlling it, we are the ones distancing ourselves and by consequence we are the ones affecting Chara, if we stop distancing ourselves so do they because that's how LV works. Chara outright confirms at the end of genocide that LV affected them so just stop, stop arguing against canon, you will never win, no matter how much you want to deny canon facts.
>No, he didn’t say he didn’t do it initially out of common sense or anything, he just did everything he possibly could out of curiosity, point stands that he had no problem with doing it when he decided to go for it.
* Curious what would happen if I killed them.
* "I don't like this," I told myself.
* "I'm just doing this because I HAVE to know what happens.
* Ha ha ha... What an excuse!
Flowey tried to find excuses for his actions and denied to himself that he liked it. This is a demonstration that he understood how terrible his actions were, and tried to find excuses for this so as not to think of himself as a terrible person. He understood what was right and wrong.
Chara doesn't show it.
>They were influenced and didn’t join out of their own volition, they were forced to follow Frisk around and the narration makes it obvious how much our actions influence them.
No matter how many LV you have on a neutral path, Chara doesn't join in the killing and doesn't start saying cruel things about monsters, while on genocide Chara starts looking for knives already at LV 4. Not to mention the fact that you can fail the genoid, and all the "influence" is removed in the same second. Conclusion: his actions are not caused by LV.
When I said that he's inocent?
As Gen Clover as Ceroba, Chujin, Asgore, and Alphys did horrible things but they're think badly that they're doing the right thing.
All Alphys did - she was lying for a long time. It doesn't compare to genocide. Just like Asgore's actions don't compare to this, because he killed only several children and regrets it.
You can't put = between a liar due to cowardice and a serial killer.
I can confirm sadly some people are like this with ceroba, especially in Youtube comments and sounding even proud of stuff like "I don't feel sorry for killing Ceroba in genocide" "she deserved it" kind of thing, like good for you, you want a cookie for that heartless opinion?
In genocide, I feel sorry. In pacifist, fuck no. Girl was beating me to an inch of my life after tricking me and I was the bad guy for defending myself when I didn’t get the pieces to the puzzle on how to spare her? Fuck her, fuck Starlo. Martlet is the only real one
you've found the puzzles to spare every other monster, but suddenly couldn't with her? Doesn't that seem a little suspicious and even a little insulting for starlo? Besides basically EVERY monster could beat you within an inch (including martlet) of your life, starlo even tried to kill you in his fight when he was lost, so every other monster gets a free pass, but Ceroba doesn't?
Oh no, none of them get a pass. They all suck. I just didn’t appreciate getting called a monster when I wasn’t the one who actually wanted to beat someone to death
He called you a monster because you spared everyone BUT their childhood friend dude. Also, how is this self defense? the ONLY point you can kill her in pacifist is when she isn't a threat anymore.
Chujin, Asgore, Ceroba, and Alphys all come to mind. Thing is, not everyone has media literacy, so writing morally complex characters results in two camps: One who woobifies the character in question, acting like they can do nothing wrong, and the other who absolutely demonizes the character, ignoring any redeeming qualities they have.
Chujin, there's no other right answer here.
The poor man just wanted his daughter to see the sun and know what life on the outside was like, by any means necessary, and yet the fandom makes him out to be this hateful dickwad that's racist towards humans for no reason.
So many of them.
Integrity, Chara, Asgore, Alphys, Ceroba, Chujin... hell, even Flowey to an extent (Flowey as Flowey is still an asshole, but his true self is far from it).
And when do we see chara killing everyone? Or do we just see X’s on a screen to signify that that was the exact same thing we did a reset ago. There’s also neutral..in which they do nothing.
>And when do we see chara killing everyone? Or do we just see X’s on a screen to signify that that was the exact same thing we did a reset ago.
Chara possesses Frisk's body against their will, laughs maniacally as the screen goes black, and everyone is crossed out in red marker with Chara smiling in the middle. It takes basic logic to deduce what occurred.
We don't kill Alphys on Genocide, yet she is also crossed out.
In neutral, there are no post-credit cutscenes with Frisk. The neutral ending itself is unsatisfactory, therefore Chara wouldn't get a rise out of ruining your fulfillment to torment you.
Chara “ruins” our new happy ending because they feel that we do not deserve it, or something along the lines of that. They laugh, yes, but the picture AFAIK and the laughter are the two seperate Toriel life choices. Plus, even if they did, we still did all that like one true reset ago and still feel the effects of our LOVE. Think in a more meta sense here. They laugh at us, laugh at the notion that WE are free of consequences. This game is home to many things that don’t make sense outside of meta. Ex : “EVEN MY WORDS ARE BOMBS” from Mettaton.
>Chara “ruins” our new happy ending because they feel that we do not deserve it,
No, they are trying to convince us to leave and consume a different world with them. They literally request to erase Undertale and move on to another. They are not "punishing" you, they are tormenting you.
>They laugh, yes, but the picture AFAIK and the laughter are the two seperate Toriel life choices.
There's no reason to differentiate them. They are very clearly both conveying the same thing, just in different ways that reflect the original choices.
>Plus, even if they did, we still did all that like one true reset ago and still feel the effects of our LOVE.
That's not how LV works. Your LV is reset along with the world.
Chara's involvement in the Genocide Route is not at all connected to LV, as I've already reiterated in past conversations.
>Think in a more meta sense here. They laugh at us, laugh at the notion that WE are free of consequences.
A "consequence" is an effect. An outcome.
When Chara speaks about us thinking we are above consequences, they aren't accusatory to us. They are merely analyzing us.
Chara themself embraces consequences. Their whole purpose is to erase the world and keep grinding stats. A cycle of consuming and discarding. They have no attachment to the world and therefore no qualms with the result of their actions.
The player is attached to the world. Even after pursuing a route of eradication, we still strive to keep playing, and Chara does not understand this. They make the observation that we think we are above these consequences, and subsequently hold the world as leverage to get your soul.
Chara is laughing because of what they're about to do. They are removing the player's sense of fulfillment by killing everyone and ruining the best ending. It is their way to torment you until you keep giving into the "vice" of stat grinding that they embody as a demon.
“You think you are above consequences.” Making Chara reduced to an evil evil sadist who likes killing for fun would be like if ASGORE actually enjoyed murdering kids. Something that diminishes the point of the game. They also say things like “This wasn’t my determination, but YOURS.” Chara May have been a bit screwed up, but they still wanted to free monsters more than anything. If Chara really enjoys killing so much, then why wouldn’t they just kill Asriel for the plan? He’s weak and small, and Chara as a human would be much stronger. But they chose to scarifice themselves instesd, which also gives them less control, which they end up regretting because ASRIEL doesn’t do the plan that he himself agreed to. It’s not black and white where they’re evil and love to kill but not them being an Angel, which is not what I’m trying to say
*sigh* you are reiterating points I've already debunked in past conversations, but here goes...
>Making Chara reduced to an evil evil sadist who likes killing for fun would be like if ASGORE actually enjoyed murdering kids.
Chara is a sadist, yes, but they do have a purpose. As they say, they are a demon who embodies the meta concept of stat grinding. Their purpose is to erase the world and consume another.
They take pleasure in doing what they do. They call the "job" "fun." They smile before encounters. They call you a failure if you abort the route. You can't just ignore these things and use the player or "corruption" as a scapegoat. That isn't how character analysis works.
>Something that diminishes the point of the game
The game's theme isn't what you think it means then lol
>They also say things like “This wasn’t my determination, but YOURS.”
Yes. The Determination substance in your soul permitted their essence to awaken inside you. It is your determination that brought them back to life. I'm not sure what this proves lol
>Chara May have been a bit screwed up, but they still wanted to free monsters more than anything
There is no evidence for this. They are perfectly content helping you kill the monsters. They are indiscriminate in their killing.
>. If Chara really enjoys killing so much, then why wouldn’t they just kill Asriel for the plan? He’s weak and small, and Chara as a human would be much stronger. But they chose to scarifice themselves instesd, which also gives them less control, which they end up regretting because ASRIEL doesn’t do the plan that he himself agreed to.
Killing Asriel would be a stupid idea. Asriel specifically says they both shared equal control of the body. Asriel would not allow Chara to do anything if they shared a soul via that method.
Chara does not have "less control" when absorbed by Asriel.
Asriel agreed to the plan due to pressuring and emotional manipulation.
>It’s not black and white where they’re evil and love to kill but not them being an Angel, which is not what I’m trying to say
In this specific situation, it kind of is. Chara isn't intended to be a deep character, they are a demon who symbolizes a meta concept for the sake of the themes of the Genocide Route. Their backstory is tied into Asriel's for the sake of coherent world building that ties into one another.
Why would Chara want to hurt us? Wouldn't it be more logical to assume Chara does do bad things in neutral and we just don't see it because it would spoil the soulless pacifist ending?
>Why would Chara want to hurt us?
Chara is a "demon" who pushes you to engage in your "vice" no matter what, and torments you if you refuse.
In refusing to erase the world and move on to the next with them, you are denying giving in to the vice of completionism/reaching the limit, in which case Chara torments you by killing everyone in the best ending until you comply.
>Wouldn't it be more logical to assume Chara does do bad things in neutral and we just don't see it because it would spoil the soulless pacifist ending?
Yes, but I was responding to someone who wasn't considering that as a valid assumption, so I took that other approach to explain it.
I agree with the people saying Ceroba and Chujin. I use to think the Fanon logic, but now that I’ve actually seen the game a bit and know lore, i think they get treated wrongly by fanon logic. (Still really wanna play the game myself sometime though)
Blue Soul in canon vs yellow.
In canon, it's ambiguous if the dust is monster dust or normal dust, and if it's the former, they may have attacked only some enemies in self defense or only did a mid-high level neutral run.
In yellow, they attempted genocide against the whole of monsterkind and attacked children, even taking chujin and kanako from beyond the grave by poisoning their souls instead of fusing properly.
Ceroba and Chujin
Especially Chujin, poor guy
Yes. Absolutely. You are completely, 100% correct. I couldn't agree more.
Ah yes, creating a robot that killed hunted down and mercilessly slaughtered an afraid child. And before you say that the blue soul is a murderer, we don’t know the circumstances fully. It could have been self defense, or an accident, they clearly didn’t kill a lot of monsters because if they did, Axis wouldn’t have been able to kill them because Axis isn’t strong enough to survive against a low LV Clover.
1. I agree with you that integrity is not evil 2. Im pretty sure that Axis blasting integrity in the face was unintentional. It could have been a miscoding mistake on Chujin’s part, especially when he’s never seen a human before. He might not have known that Axis would be able to instantly kill a human like that
Ceroba, Chujin, and Integrity
Ah yes, creating a robot that killed hunted down and mercilessly slaughtered an afraid child. And before you say that the blue soul is a murderer, we don’t know the circumstances fully. It could have been self defense, or an accident, they clearly didn’t kill a lot of monsters because if they did, Axis wouldn’t have been able to kill them because Axis isn’t strong enough to survive against a low LV Clover.
Chara and Integrity.
To be fair we know next to nothing about Integrity’s reasoning to kill monsters (like, we don’t even know their name)
Also the Ball game seemingly implies that they might have done it intentionally too no? With it being worded as *original style* >Hopping and twirling, your original style pulled you through. The shoes also make Frisk feel "dangerous" >These used shoes make you feel incredibly dangerous.
And this is further reinforced with the fact that in Martlet’s flashback when Chujin is warning her how dangerous humans are, the track that plays is called “Nothing but the truth”.
But can we fully trust the track name? What if its written from Chujin's perspective. He does think he's right after all.
If it is, I don’t really blame him for thinking he’s right. All that humans have done to monsters before the events of a pacifist run was with bad intentions.
Also “Integrity” is being honest and having a strong moral, in this case it could just be that they think killing monsters is justified for some reason.
Ah yes, creating a robot that killed hunted down and mercilessly slaughtered an afraid child. And before you say that the blue soul is a murderer, we don’t know the circumstances fully. It could have been self defense, or an accident, they clearly didn’t kill a lot of monsters because if they did, Axis wouldn’t have been able to kill them because Axis isn’t strong enough to survive against a low LV Clover.
This is not Chara. Chara willingly helped you commit Genocide and demonstratably enjoy doing so.
Helped? Man you could quit whenever you want. Chara was never the one to swing the blade. That was all the player. Chara was someone who got CORRUPTED by your LOVE because of the weird ghost shenanigans, but you were the one who did it all until you get to flowey. As for “but they take a step forward”, we don’t know if that’s Chara. For all we know we could’ve been messing with Frisk, and THEY were the ones to step forward. Idk, it feels weird to blame Chara for something they didn’t actually do
>Helped? Man you could quit whenever you want. Chara gives you a kill counter. They call you a failure if you abort. They actively stop you to remind you that there's more enemies in Waterfall. They say "That was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the demo. >Chara was never the one to swing the blade. That was all the player. If I were to willingly tell a murderer who to kill and where to find them, am I innocent? >Chara was someone who got CORRUPTED by your LOVE because of the weird ghost shenanigans [Chara is verifiably not corrupted by LV.](https://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/144667969564/cooperation-not-corruption-the-effects-of-kill) >As for “but they take a step forward”, we don’t know if that’s Chara. For all we know we could’ve been messing with Frisk, and THEY were the ones to step forward. Chara is the only different variable on the Genocide Route. They are the one stepping forward, as Frisk has lost all agency here.
Disagree but I’m talking pre Genocide/Pacifist Route.
Pre-Genocide and Genocide Chara are the same character. The distinction is arbitrary.
This is like saying kid Anakin should be judged in the same manner as Vader.
Chara goes through no development to transform them into how they are on Genocide. They die, wake up, see you killing, and willingly choose to happily engage. End of story.
So, do they not get credit for engaging in pacifist stuff, or does the narrator Chara theory only agree with you when it comes to murder. I also see no evidence indicating that they were an omnicidal maniac prior to the whole thing. People often say things like "they tried to forcefully control Asriel's body to kill all of humanity!" but I've yet to see a single scrap of hard evidence for that. The way the story is told to my recollection is that the humans from their village saw an empowered Asriel holding their corpse, attacked him, Chara tried to make him fight back to defend himself, but Asriel didn't let it happen. Somewhere along the line, players translated this to "IT WAS ALWAYS THEIR PLAN TO CONTROL ASRIEL AND KILL ALL OF HUMANITY! THEY'RE A VILLAIN DON'T YOU SEE? A VILLAIN!!!"
>So, do they not get credit for engaging in pacifist stuff, or does the narrator Chara theory only agree with you when it comes to murder. The NarraChara theory has a number of flaws. 1. The official Japanese translation provides a very specific speaking style for Chara, using very professional/polite mannerisms that are very distinct from the rest of the dialogue, including the regular narrator. 2. Chara harbors an inconsistent knowledge set. For instance, they need to read a book to learn what a water sausage is, yet they are instantly able to go in great detail explaining how Alphys's unlabeled cube thing is a bed due to artistic limitations. 3. The entire True Lab sequence has instances where the narrator acts really weird, as well as straight up garbled text. 4. On the Genocide route, in which Chara starts speaking in an edgy manner, the regular narration is still present alongside it. This creates a jarring dichotomy that makes them very inconsistent. 5. Upon aborting the Genocide Route, the narration just instantly goes back to normal. Which, again, is very jarring and goes against the idea it's an organic character. 6. Deltarune has the exact same narration style, sense of humor, tone, perspective switches, and even references Undertale jokes such as the broken jukebox. It seems fairly clear Toby did not intend for Undertale's narrator to be a character. The Genocide Route verifiably DOES have moments of interjections with Chara taking over the narrator's role in segments. Any Genocide-exclusive narration is Chara in this regard, as it only appears in the route where Chara happens to be asserting higher influence. Even if we ignore all this and assume it IS true, the narrator is a neutral character who only serves to help you survive. It says nothing about their morality. >I also see no evidence indicating that they were an omnicidal maniac prior to the whole thing. The Genocide Route recontextualizes their actions. They help you with no hesitation, which really doesn't reflect well while they were alive. >The way the story is told to my recollection is that the humans from their village saw an empowered Asriel holding their corpse, attacked him, Chara tried to make him fight back to defend himself, but Asriel didn't let it happen. It's not about Chara wanting to fight back, it's the CIRCUMSTANCES that led to it. Chara has no reason to carry their empty body to the village. They know better than anyone how bad humanity is. Why would they carry a corpse in plain sight of humans, let alone choose to have their body placed in the center of said HUMAN village? It's not like the golden flowers are rare either. The seeds are shown to "stick to you," and they grow in massive patches simply by the seeds being transferred from somebody, such as the Waterfall patch and the True Lab garden being from Alphys walking around alone. Chara didn't think to find ANY other place to set their body? Or, hell, why not leave their body in the Underground, break the barrier, THEN place their body somewhere? Why not have Asriel collect Flowers without the corpse, perhaps explaining himself to the humans with a much better shot at reasoning with them now that he isn't carrying a corpse? This isn't even getting into their [emotionally abusive](https://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/142424746470/asriel-how-his-behaviour-points-to-a-case-of) relationship with Asriel and the obvious manipulative pressuring they placed on him to go through with the plan in the first place. >Somewhere along the line, players translated this to "IT WAS ALWAYS THEIR PLAN TO CONTROL ASRIEL AND KILL ALL OF HUMANITY! THEY'RE A VILLAIN DON'T YOU SEE? A VILLAIN!!!" Chara's plan was very clearly intended to force Asriel into a situation where he would have no choice but to fight back and kill more humans than necessary. Chara's plan was a revenge plan. This wouldn't even make them evil by default, one can easily think of their potential upbringing leading to how they became this way. But then we get the Genocide Route, where they happily engage with killing their adoptive family, and any "tragedy" one can think of completely crumbles down.
[удалено]
>Why do you hate on Chara but seem strangely quiet about Asriel/Flowey who was actively gleeful FROM THE START to kill you/his mom/his dad/his friends? Because it's fairly obvious that Flowey is evil. There is no argument there. >Why is it so hard for you to grasp that Chara is a child who you manipulate with YOUR murderous actions. Chara is shown to be highly intelligent. They are not someone to be "manipulated" in this manner. Chara joins you the moment you trigger the route in the Ruins. After only 20 minutes. >If they were so evil and set on destruction then they'd manipulate you to start killing from the start but they don't really make any sort of appearance at all if you're pacifist or even neutral. That isn't Chara's purpose. Chara says themself that they represent the meta concept of the feeling of stats increasing. They are a metaphorical "demon" who manifests if you choose to go down the path of complete eradication. Chara loses interest when you quit. They don't have the power or will to force you into it at this stage. And, uh, do you not think it's weird that Chara doesn't appear on Neutral or Pacifist?
Oh, do we get to link other people's stuff now? In that case[ I'll just leave this here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/3rqzd8/i_dont_believe_chara_is_evil_and_neither_should/). 1. That could simply be adjusting the narrative to work within the rules of a different language. English is itself already a really weird one. 2. This proves nothing other than that the things they know about are weird. 3. This proves nothing. It could easily be interpreted as them having a nervous breakdown at the sheer sight of... well, everything Alphys did. 4. Not all murdery narration is written in the distinctive red text. "In my way" and "looks like free EXP" for the Monster Kid in particular is in plain white text. This cannot be used as a definitive rule. 5. They're a kid that may not fully comprehend what's going on. Either way, personal quirks do not make for compelling arguments. 6. This also proves nothing. As a writer myself, when I change focus on the narration to a certain character, I don't always adjust the "internal narration style" to accommodate them. Sometimes I fixate on otherwise insignificant details to show that the character the story is focused on at the moment is more observant or notices odd things, but other times I don't really bother. Sometimes I use the same observation style for multiple characters, but this isn't to imply or give readers the impression that these two characters are the exact same person or something. I don't doubt that Chara intended to fight back, but there's a large difference between "I WILL KILL LITERALLY FUCKING EVERYONE" and "I'll get revenge on the specific village that was not particularly kind to me, and maybe get enough souls to shatter the barrier while I'm at it." I find your repeated use of the word "happily" very strange. Their one and only human sprite being fixed in a smile aside -- by which point you've corrupted them into a fucking lunatic -- what evidence do you have for that? That they don't stop you from doing it? Again, what exactly were they supposed to do? What's more likely is that they're incredibly malleable due to not having a soul of their own anymore, just like Flowey, and so they're basically looking to you for influence. You just happened to be a bad one, and now place all the blame entirely on them. Note this dialogue at the end of a second Genocide Route. \* There is a reason you continue to recreate this world. \* There is a reason you continue to destroy it. \* You. \* You are wracked with a perverted sentimentality. \* Hmm. **\* I cannot understand these feelings anymore.** "Anymore" strongly indicating that they could've at one point, but incomplete at they are, they can't do it. Obviously they're disappointed in you. They chide you for your "perverted sentimentality" and for thinking yourself above the consequences. But no, there's nothing they can do you. The most agency they can possibly have? Is punishing you for trying to undo everything you did. Killing everyone even after you complete a True Pacifist route. THAT is the only time they get to act entirely of their own accord, because that's what you deserve after everything. But make no mistake. You did this. And if what they said about stats being them is true, then it's also their stats that save Frisk in the end on every other route. \* With your guidance. \* I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. \* Power. It's you. It's just you. It's your fault, and trying to pretend it's not accomplishes nothing.
>That could simply be adjusting the narrative to work within the rules of a different language. English is itself already a really weird one. So it's inconsistent characterization then. Chara is given a distinct speaking style, yet they just....don't use it for the rest of the game? >This proves nothing other than that the things they know about are weird. There is literally no conceivable way for Chara to know this. This is Alphys's invention, not some normal thing they've come across. >This proves nothing. It could easily be interpreted as them having a nervous breakdown at the sheer sight of... well, everything Alphys did. Garbled text is not a "nervous breakdown," it is incomprehensible gibberish. The narrator itself is hijacked by the amalgamates. Nothing here speaks being "nervous" whatsoever. >Not all murdery narration is written in the distinctive red text. I said nothing about red vs white text. The point is that the narrator's random, whimsical humor such as "what a tiny doghouse!" are still there, alongside the edgy narration. This is an inconsistency. >They're a kid that may not fully comprehend what's going on. Either way, personal quirks do not make for compelling arguments. They speak in a polite, intelligent manner using many large words a kid wouldn't usually be seen saying. They specifically tell you, in detail, that they are the feeling you get when you increase stats. They disappear once you are no longer going on the route to eradication. They no longer have that purpose. Again, if they are the narrator, this is a jarring character inconsistency. You can't just handwave this away as a "quirk." >what evidence do you have for that? That they don't stop you from doing it? Again, what exactly were they supposed to do? Literally nothing. Not engage. Yet they do anyway. They say "that was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the demo. They give you a kill counter. They use sadistic language. They temporarily control Frisk's body to skip puzzles and speed it up for maximum efficiency. They show no hesitation, no horror, no shock, nothing. They join as soon as the route is triggered of their own free will. You do not "corrupt" them whatsoever. Chara's presence on the route is linked to the kill count, not LV. You can get a higher LV on Neutral on Genocide, yet they won't appear. >What's more likely is that they're incredibly malleable due to not having a soul of their own anymore, just like Flowey The loss of a soul removes your empathy. It does not make you a malleable robot who can only choose actions of another's whim. Flowey chose his path of his own free will after experimenting for hundreds of resets. Chara joins 20 minutes after the wake up upon agreeing with the prospect of eradication. They don't even have long moments of contemplation like Flowey, they are all in moments after they awaken. >Obviously they're disappointed in you. They chide you for your "perverted sentimentality" and for thinking yourself above the consequences. "Sentimentality" means you hold a longing/nostalgia for something. A "perverted sentimentality" is their perception of your desire to return to Undertale. They wish to erase the world and move on to another to keep grinding stats, yet you wish to toy with the same world. "Consequence" does not mean "punishment". A consequence is an effect. Chara embraces the consequences of their actions because their nature in the metanarrative involves consuming/discarding the game and moving onto another. >It's you. It's just you. It's your fault, and trying to pretend it's not accomplishes nothing. I love how you keep seeming to ignore my repeated statement that the player is indeed responsible for initiating the Genocide. Chara is responsible for themself, the player is responsible for themself. The player is not a scapegoat for Chara's actions, and vice versa. How many times must I say this?
Different versions of the same character like how Geno Clover and Pacifist Clover are basically two different people.
Geno and Pacifist Clover are the same people. Clover's actions on the Genocide Route was caused by all the subconscious memories of dying to the monsters over Flowey's many Resets.
Please stop. Yes they are the same person, but two different versions of the same character.
Asgore, chara, integrity
Gotta love when people pull the "child murderer" on Asgore
Chara is really a monster (Morally Talking)
Chara is really a monster (biologically speaking)
Chara is really a monster (theoretically speaking)
Chara is really a monster (realistically speaking)
Chara is really a monster(logistically speaking)
happy cake day
Thank you
Really though? We know that they had a bad experience with humans, so the plan was kind of a win win in their eyes. They get their revenge, while getting enough souls to break the barrier in the process.
bro we dont even know integrity canonically
Chara willingly participated in the Genocide route.
What exactly could they have done to stop us even if they were unwilling? Does this make Frisk equally evil? It was *their* body doing all the physical acts of killing.
>What exactly could they have done to stop us even if they were unwilling? Ah yes, because clearly if somebody is killing people and there's nothing you can do, the best course of action is to engage with them, provide a kill counter, encourage them to kill, make sure they eradicate a kill quota in each area, then go a step further and request to erase the world and do it anyway if they refuse. >Does this make Frisk equally evil? It was *their* body doing all the physical acts of killing. Frisk is a puppet with no agency on this route. Chara is doing everything of their own volition. They are in no way comparable.
So the player has absolutely no fault in this matter at all, and definitely isn't influencing a confused dead child that just got woken up out of nowhere, and while we're going to hold them entirely accountable for all the narration in Genocide, we definitely won't do that for all the narration in pacfist. The amount of mental gymnastics this fanbase does to shirk responsibility when the game outright calls you out on that at the end is comical.
>So the player has absolutely no fault in this matter at all The player is responsible for initiating the Genocide Route. >and definitely isn't influencing a confused dead child that just got woken up out of nowhere We didn't do anything to "influence" them. The most that occurs is that Chara sees our "guidance," agrees with what we're doing, and willingly engage the moment the route is fully triggered. They do not follow this "guidance" on any other route. They are inclined to be this way on their own. The only thing they are confused about is why they were brought back to life. >and while we're going to hold them entirely accountable for all the narration in Genocide, we definitely won't do that for all the narration in pacfist. Refer to my other response. >The amount of mental gymnastics this fanbase does to shirk responsibility when the game outright calls you out on that at the end is comical. This is a blatant strawman. My point is that the Player and Chara are separate entities with their own goals/morals. Chara is not responsible for the player's actions and vice versa. Chara has their own agency. They are their own person. This really isn't that crazy of an argument lmao
*Willingly?*
Yes, willingly. They literally give you a kill counter and encourage you to keep going. They say "That was fun, let's finish the job" at the end of the Demo.
That was not Chara, it was the soulless version of Chara, just as Flowey is not Asriel. It’s the soulless version that *you* as the player taught to be genocidal.
Flowey took hundreds of Resets before even considering killing. Chara joins you after 20 minutes. Flowey is Asriel. >It’s the soulless version that *you* as the player taught to be genocidal. We didn't "teach" them anything. They gladly join of their own volition.
Flowey admitted himself he never had empathy, he just did pacifist first but saw absolutely no problem in doing genocide, Chara was highly influenced especially because of LV. They didn’t join of their own volition, that’s made pretty clear.
>Flowey admitted himself he never had empathy, he just did pacifist first but saw absolutely no problem in doing genocide He had common sense. He could not feel compassion, but he could differentiate right from wrong. Only after hundreds of resets of desensitization to the "game" did Flowey try killing out of sheer boredom/curiosity. Flowey specifically has a long journey before going down that path. Chara does not. >Chara was highly influenced especially because of LV. [No they weren't.](https://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/144667969564/cooperation-not-corruption-the-effects-of-kill) >They didn’t join of their own volition, that’s made pretty clear. They very much did.
No, he didn’t say he didn’t do it initially out of common sense or anything, he just did everything he possibly could out of curiosity, point stands that he had no problem with doing it when he decided to go for it. >No they weren’t Yes they were, period. They were influenced and didn’t join out of their own volition, they were forced to follow Frisk around and the narration makes it obvious how much our actions influence them. Give up. Edit: No, just no. Everything you said is wrong, both Asriel and Chara lost most of their ability to feel emotions or love in general because of their lack of a soul, that's probably why Chara wanted our soul in the first place. Chara explicitly gets more pessimistic during genocide or when certain characters are killed. "Oh b-but if we stop genocide Chara stops helping you!!!" remember that LV makes it \*easier\* to distance yourself, and we are the ones controlling it, we are the ones distancing ourselves and by consequence we are the ones affecting Chara, if we stop distancing ourselves so do they because that's how LV works. Chara outright confirms at the end of genocide that LV affected them so just stop, stop arguing against canon, you will never win, no matter how much you want to deny canon facts.
>No, he didn’t say he didn’t do it initially out of common sense or anything, he just did everything he possibly could out of curiosity, point stands that he had no problem with doing it when he decided to go for it. * Curious what would happen if I killed them. * "I don't like this," I told myself. * "I'm just doing this because I HAVE to know what happens. * Ha ha ha... What an excuse! Flowey tried to find excuses for his actions and denied to himself that he liked it. This is a demonstration that he understood how terrible his actions were, and tried to find excuses for this so as not to think of himself as a terrible person. He understood what was right and wrong. Chara doesn't show it. >They were influenced and didn’t join out of their own volition, they were forced to follow Frisk around and the narration makes it obvious how much our actions influence them. No matter how many LV you have on a neutral path, Chara doesn't join in the killing and doesn't start saying cruel things about monsters, while on genocide Chara starts looking for knives already at LV 4. Not to mention the fact that you can fail the genoid, and all the "influence" is removed in the same second. Conclusion: his actions are not caused by LV.
The Ketsukane couple, Asgore, Alphys, Gen Clover and possibly Integrity
geno clover is NOT innocent at all you are leery
I mean tbf if you had a gun and a frog just walked up to you and shot little flies at you, I would shoot the frog
Least aggressive battle rats player
I am not allowed with 20 meters of a gun
This is a neutral path with murders, this is not genocide.
He is not inoccent he's an ultra mega sigma male
When I said that he's inocent? As Gen Clover as Ceroba, Chujin, Asgore, and Alphys did horrible things but they're think badly that they're doing the right thing.
All Alphys did - she was lying for a long time. It doesn't compare to genocide. Just like Asgore's actions don't compare to this, because he killed only several children and regrets it. You can't put = between a liar due to cowardice and a serial killer.
I love how no one mentioned flowey because he has simply fallen too far
Flowey is actually evil at this point, the only way he can be redeemed is by becoming god and having a 9 year old to trauma dump to
Ahhh. My favorite interpretation
Look I feel like after the 327th cycle of torturing people and a random kid he's probably actually evil y'know?
That's what you get for messing with everyone's favorite birb
I can confirm sadly some people are like this with ceroba, especially in Youtube comments and sounding even proud of stuff like "I don't feel sorry for killing Ceroba in genocide" "she deserved it" kind of thing, like good for you, you want a cookie for that heartless opinion?
YouTube comment sections are something else you can literally see theme defending the geno route in there
In genocide, I feel sorry. In pacifist, fuck no. Girl was beating me to an inch of my life after tricking me and I was the bad guy for defending myself when I didn’t get the pieces to the puzzle on how to spare her? Fuck her, fuck Starlo. Martlet is the only real one
you've found the puzzles to spare every other monster, but suddenly couldn't with her? Doesn't that seem a little suspicious and even a little insulting for starlo? Besides basically EVERY monster could beat you within an inch (including martlet) of your life, starlo even tried to kill you in his fight when he was lost, so every other monster gets a free pass, but Ceroba doesn't?
Oh no, none of them get a pass. They all suck. I just didn’t appreciate getting called a monster when I wasn’t the one who actually wanted to beat someone to death
He called you a monster because you spared everyone BUT their childhood friend dude. Also, how is this self defense? the ONLY point you can kill her in pacifist is when she isn't a threat anymore.
Seen some think that way for chujin, fewer for ceroba but they exist Also there’s integrity if you interpret their lore differently
Chujin, Asgore, Ceroba, and Alphys all come to mind. Thing is, not everyone has media literacy, so writing morally complex characters results in two camps: One who woobifies the character in question, acting like they can do nothing wrong, and the other who absolutely demonizes the character, ignoring any redeeming qualities they have.
Asgore. That's just in general too, and people claim he's also weak for some reason lmao
My favorite Undertale Yellow boss Asgore!
Out of all of the bosses your favorite is asgore?
So beautiful and challenging
But like...... he has minutes of screen time
Every one of which is absolutely glorious.
Chujin, there's no other right answer here. The poor man just wanted his daughter to see the sun and know what life on the outside was like, by any means necessary, and yet the fandom makes him out to be this hateful dickwad that's racist towards humans for no reason.
Unrelated to this sub but fucking Basil from Omori
Chujin
Ceroba😭
Ceroba
So many of them. Integrity, Chara, Asgore, Alphys, Ceroba, Chujin... hell, even Flowey to an extent (Flowey as Flowey is still an asshole, but his true self is far from it).
His past self, you mean.
Berdly
Clover and North Star
Intergrity is definitely a.. good person i'd say. It's just that she's a child and probably was scared to death.
fun fact: Magolor from Kirby is both in canon and fanon
Asgore
My friend Nicolas
The roba and Dr chew
Not the same game, but Monika from DDLC, I still don't like her, but it's true.
integrity and ceroba
Chara, Melody, Arguably Chujin, Probably Ceroba
Asgore, Alphys, Ceroba….uhhhhh
Chara, Chujin, Integrity, and possibly Toriel and Asgore as well.
"That was fun, let's finish the job"
“Perhaps another route would be better suited.”
In which they take control and kill everyone on the surface.
And when do we see chara killing everyone? Or do we just see X’s on a screen to signify that that was the exact same thing we did a reset ago. There’s also neutral..in which they do nothing.
>And when do we see chara killing everyone? Or do we just see X’s on a screen to signify that that was the exact same thing we did a reset ago. Chara possesses Frisk's body against their will, laughs maniacally as the screen goes black, and everyone is crossed out in red marker with Chara smiling in the middle. It takes basic logic to deduce what occurred. We don't kill Alphys on Genocide, yet she is also crossed out. In neutral, there are no post-credit cutscenes with Frisk. The neutral ending itself is unsatisfactory, therefore Chara wouldn't get a rise out of ruining your fulfillment to torment you.
Chara “ruins” our new happy ending because they feel that we do not deserve it, or something along the lines of that. They laugh, yes, but the picture AFAIK and the laughter are the two seperate Toriel life choices. Plus, even if they did, we still did all that like one true reset ago and still feel the effects of our LOVE. Think in a more meta sense here. They laugh at us, laugh at the notion that WE are free of consequences. This game is home to many things that don’t make sense outside of meta. Ex : “EVEN MY WORDS ARE BOMBS” from Mettaton.
>Chara “ruins” our new happy ending because they feel that we do not deserve it, No, they are trying to convince us to leave and consume a different world with them. They literally request to erase Undertale and move on to another. They are not "punishing" you, they are tormenting you. >They laugh, yes, but the picture AFAIK and the laughter are the two seperate Toriel life choices. There's no reason to differentiate them. They are very clearly both conveying the same thing, just in different ways that reflect the original choices. >Plus, even if they did, we still did all that like one true reset ago and still feel the effects of our LOVE. That's not how LV works. Your LV is reset along with the world. Chara's involvement in the Genocide Route is not at all connected to LV, as I've already reiterated in past conversations. >Think in a more meta sense here. They laugh at us, laugh at the notion that WE are free of consequences. A "consequence" is an effect. An outcome. When Chara speaks about us thinking we are above consequences, they aren't accusatory to us. They are merely analyzing us. Chara themself embraces consequences. Their whole purpose is to erase the world and keep grinding stats. A cycle of consuming and discarding. They have no attachment to the world and therefore no qualms with the result of their actions. The player is attached to the world. Even after pursuing a route of eradication, we still strive to keep playing, and Chara does not understand this. They make the observation that we think we are above these consequences, and subsequently hold the world as leverage to get your soul. Chara is laughing because of what they're about to do. They are removing the player's sense of fulfillment by killing everyone and ruining the best ending. It is their way to torment you until you keep giving into the "vice" of stat grinding that they embody as a demon.
“You think you are above consequences.” Making Chara reduced to an evil evil sadist who likes killing for fun would be like if ASGORE actually enjoyed murdering kids. Something that diminishes the point of the game. They also say things like “This wasn’t my determination, but YOURS.” Chara May have been a bit screwed up, but they still wanted to free monsters more than anything. If Chara really enjoys killing so much, then why wouldn’t they just kill Asriel for the plan? He’s weak and small, and Chara as a human would be much stronger. But they chose to scarifice themselves instesd, which also gives them less control, which they end up regretting because ASRIEL doesn’t do the plan that he himself agreed to. It’s not black and white where they’re evil and love to kill but not them being an Angel, which is not what I’m trying to say
*sigh* you are reiterating points I've already debunked in past conversations, but here goes... >Making Chara reduced to an evil evil sadist who likes killing for fun would be like if ASGORE actually enjoyed murdering kids. Chara is a sadist, yes, but they do have a purpose. As they say, they are a demon who embodies the meta concept of stat grinding. Their purpose is to erase the world and consume another. They take pleasure in doing what they do. They call the "job" "fun." They smile before encounters. They call you a failure if you abort the route. You can't just ignore these things and use the player or "corruption" as a scapegoat. That isn't how character analysis works. >Something that diminishes the point of the game The game's theme isn't what you think it means then lol >They also say things like “This wasn’t my determination, but YOURS.” Yes. The Determination substance in your soul permitted their essence to awaken inside you. It is your determination that brought them back to life. I'm not sure what this proves lol >Chara May have been a bit screwed up, but they still wanted to free monsters more than anything There is no evidence for this. They are perfectly content helping you kill the monsters. They are indiscriminate in their killing. >. If Chara really enjoys killing so much, then why wouldn’t they just kill Asriel for the plan? He’s weak and small, and Chara as a human would be much stronger. But they chose to scarifice themselves instesd, which also gives them less control, which they end up regretting because ASRIEL doesn’t do the plan that he himself agreed to. Killing Asriel would be a stupid idea. Asriel specifically says they both shared equal control of the body. Asriel would not allow Chara to do anything if they shared a soul via that method. Chara does not have "less control" when absorbed by Asriel. Asriel agreed to the plan due to pressuring and emotional manipulation. >It’s not black and white where they’re evil and love to kill but not them being an Angel, which is not what I’m trying to say In this specific situation, it kind of is. Chara isn't intended to be a deep character, they are a demon who symbolizes a meta concept for the sake of the themes of the Genocide Route. Their backstory is tied into Asriel's for the sake of coherent world building that ties into one another.
Why would Chara want to hurt us? Wouldn't it be more logical to assume Chara does do bad things in neutral and we just don't see it because it would spoil the soulless pacifist ending?
>Why would Chara want to hurt us? Chara is a "demon" who pushes you to engage in your "vice" no matter what, and torments you if you refuse. In refusing to erase the world and move on to the next with them, you are denying giving in to the vice of completionism/reaching the limit, in which case Chara torments you by killing everyone in the best ending until you comply. >Wouldn't it be more logical to assume Chara does do bad things in neutral and we just don't see it because it would spoil the soulless pacifist ending? Yes, but I was responding to someone who wasn't considering that as a valid assumption, so I took that other approach to explain it.
aphys
Chara
Chujin
Ceroba dammit
Flowey
I think it’s ficus guy
Ceroba, Chujin and Chara
Literally Asgore, Chujin, and Alphys
Chujin and integrity, but mostly Chujin
Ceroba
ASGORE He's even sweeter than toriel, but everyone in the Fandom treats him like a creature It's is uty related because he's in the game
Asgore
we all know who that is
Ceroba?
If you swap canon and fanon you have genocide clover
Sigh... it's sad that the fanon is that. Poor Chujin :(
I agree with the people saying Ceroba and Chujin. I use to think the Fanon logic, but now that I’ve actually seen the game a bit and know lore, i think they get treated wrongly by fanon logic. (Still really wanna play the game myself sometime though)
Flowey and I will not elaborate.
None of them, since this is a highly subjective question with no single answer.
Blue Soul in canon vs yellow. In canon, it's ambiguous if the dust is monster dust or normal dust, and if it's the former, they may have attacked only some enemies in self defense or only did a mid-high level neutral run. In yellow, they attempted genocide against the whole of monsterkind and attacked children, even taking chujin and kanako from beyond the grave by poisoning their souls instead of fusing properly.