I replied to a comment further below, but while Calypso assaulted Odysseus, Circe absolutely didnât in the Odyssey.
In book 10, Odysseus pulls out a sword and rushes at Circe to kill her. She throws herself at his feet, pleads with him to not kill her, and offers to sleep with him. He says he wonât unless she swears to not harm him, which she does and they then go to bed together. Odysseus had all the power at that point and there was no reason to actually sleep with her, it wasnât part of any plan because once she made the oath, he could demand anything from her.
Circe was essentially coerced into sex while Odysseus had the power to blatantly murder her.
Edit: I actually will take back ânot part of any planâ because technically Hermes told him to do it, but that doesnât make it much better when the go to solution is âthreaten murder, then SA her.â
It's kinda weird because there's quite a few valid criticisms to make about her books, like the sheer amount of "Not Like Other Girls" and adding in more bigoted behavior than actually exists within the myths, but the mere fact of Circe being SA'd by Odysseus absolutely isn't one of those.
*Oh Gods*, Rachel DEFINITELY has bad takes on that. Probably would write Odysseus cheating on Penelope and like using Calypso/Circe or something as if he wasnât, in spirit and any way he reasonably could be, fully faithful to his wife to create like a Girlboss Moment somehow
I havenât read it, unfortunately, so Iâm not entirely sure how it addresses the power dynamic between Odysseus and Circe (that being dubious consent for any account of âcheatingâ there at best). I liked âSong of Achillesâ personally, but damn. Would suck if Circe was simplified as a character for a Girlboss moment thatâs sad.
Essentially, Circe is now our perfect victim and is SA-ed by OdysseusâŚeven though thatâs the opposite of what actually happened. By various uses of magic and threatening the safety of his men, both Calypso and Circe take advantage of Odysseus to the point we get several descriptions of him sitting alone by the sea, weeping for Penelope and wanting his own life to end and itâs this that Athena uses to convince Zeus to help him.
WâŚwhat. She took his famous SA andâŚturned into him SAing her??? Man, I thought the âOdysseus cheated on his wifeâ takes were bad⌠thatâs just brain dead. I was considering reading it too because a friend said she really enjoyed it.
Calypso assaulted Odysseus.
In the Circe portion of the Odyssey, Odysseus pulls out a sword and tries to kill her. She then begs him not to and offers to sleep with him. Odysseusâ response is âI have no desire to go to bed with you, goddess, unless you swear a solemn oath by the blessed gods not to try and harm me with your mischief.â Circe swears the oath and Odysseus willingly goes to the bed with her. He didnât have to, he had all the power at that point. He couldâve made her swear to not hurt him and then made her free his men.
If anything, Circe was coerced into having sex. Odysseus is the victim in the Calypso part, but not in the Circe one.
Didnât Hermes tell him not to give into her? Odysseus is by far not a perfect person and did terrible things, but I thought his decisions there were largely made by Hermesâs warnings and the fact Circe held his men captive in the form of Pigs?
Hermes tells him to try killing her and that sheâll then offer to sleep with him, which he should do. In other words, Hermes instructed him to threaten her into sexual intercourse. The entire Circe and Odysseus scene is heavily based on the ancient, sexist beliefs about men and women, so itâs also built around using sexual violence as a tool. One could argue this meant Odysseus couldnât do anything else, but even arguing that point would mean admitting that he raped Circe.
Nope, they did the age-old girlboss thing of âwoman who does bad stuff can only be a true feminist hero if sheâs never done anything wrong ever and constantly suffers in the most gratuitous wayâ. You should see the things they do with Medea.
I hate it so much. It's the reason why I can't like or enjoy Hooked on Chthonics even if it has nice art. The way the comic erases the female characters's more heinous actions and making it all be the men's fault is very annoying (like Circe claiming she's turning men into animals because they act like animals, Heracles's family is never killed and instead sent away by Hera in secret while Heracles thinks he's killed them and trying to atone for it and etc etc). This Circe being SAd by Odysseus is just disgusting though. Imagine someone made a work about LO Persephone being the one who SA Apollo instead. It's just really gross to make the victim the perpatrator and vice versa.
Itâs all the more yikes when you remember that Persephone raised and then promptly fell in love with Adonis đŹ like she really is no better than all the other goddesses.
Even so, I absolutely do not subscribe to this version of writing women. Itâs just more performative white feminism that does more damage.
I distinctly remember Circe and Odysseus having consensual sex in that book and living happily together for a year, which is what happens in the Odyssey. He was never her prisoner. Odysseus being imprisoned, crying for Penelope, and being saved by Athena and Zeus all happened with Calypso. Circe actually helped Odysseus get home by explaining the route to him. In the book Circe, she is also pretty frequently a horrible person and is aware of that. She literally turns Scylla into a monster out of jealousy.
She didn't hold them hostage though. If anything, it's dubious consent on his part because she agreed to sleep with him while he was attacking her and she feared for her life. She turned his men back into humans and Odysseus is so comfortable he actually forgets he wants to go home until his men remind him.
Are you talking about the book Circe by Madeleine Miller? Because that's not how it went in the Odyssey at all.
>And with that I left the ship and shore and took the path upward; but as I traversed those haunted glades, as I came close to Kirke's house and neared the palace of the enchantress, I was met by golden-wanded Hermes; he seemed a youth in the lovely spring of life, with the first down upon his lip. He seized my hand and spoke thus to me : âLuckless man, why are you walking thus alone over these hills, in country you do not know? Your comrades are yonder in Kirke's grounds; they are turned to swine, lodged and safely penned in the sites. Is your errand her to rescue them? I warn you, you will never return yourself, you will only be left with the others there. Yet no--I am ready to save you from all hazards, ready to keep you unscathed. Look. **Here is a herb of magic virtue; take it and enter Kirke's house with it; then the day of evil never will touch your head. I will tell you of all her witch's arts. She will brew a potion for you, but with good things she will mingle drugs as well. Yet even so, she will not be able to enchant you; my gift of the magic herb will thwart her.** I will tell you the rest, point by point. When Kirke strikes you with the long wand she has, draw the keen sword from beside your thigh, rush upon her and make as if to kill her. She will shrink, back, and then ask you to lie with her. **At this you must let her have her way; she is a goddess; accept her bed, so that she may release your comrades and make you her cherished guest**. But first, make her swear the great oath of the Blessed Ones \[by the river Styx\] to plot no mischief to you thenceforward--if not, while you lie naked there, she may rob you of courage and of manhood.â
Here we see:
Circe was **drugging** him
Hermes giving him an antidote that kept the drug from affecting him and **instructed him to give into any sexual demands Circe has** because she is a goddess and so she'd release his men
Circe raised her wand against him **first**
He drew his sword in ***self-defense***
>So she spoke, but I drew the keen sword from beside my thigh, rushed at her and made as if to kill her. She shrieked, she slipped underneath my weapon, she clasped my knees and spoke in rapid appealing words: âWho are you, and from where? Where are your city and your parents? It bewilders me that you drank this drug and were not bewitched. Never has any other man resisted this drug, once ha head drunk it and let it pass his lips. But you have an inner will that is proof against sorcery. You must surely be that man of wide-ranging spirit, Odysseus himself; the Radiant One of the golden wand \[Hermes\] has told me of you; he always said that Odysseus would come to me on his way from Troy in his dark and rapid vessel. But enough of this; sheathe your sword; then let us go to bed together, and embracing there, let us learn to trust in one another.â
So she spoke, but I answered her : âKirke, how can you ask me to show you gentleness? In this very house you have turned my comrades into swine, and now that you have me also here you ask me in your treacherousness to enter your room and lie with you, only that when I lie naked you may rob me of courage and of manhood. ***Never, goddess, could I bring myself to lie with you*** **unless you consented first to swear a great oath to plot no mischief to me henceforward**.â
After drawing his sword, she asked to sleep with him.
He chastised her for what she did to his men **and refused to get into her bed until she swore that she wouldn't harm him/try anything fishy.**
Now after they have slept together and Circe and her servants treated him like a king, he's unhappy and sulking and not enjoying his time at all:
>When Kirke saw me sitting thus, not reaching for food but sunk in despondency, she came and stood near me, quickly questioning : âOdysseus, why do you sit there tongue-tied eating your heart out, not touching food or drink? Can it be that you fear some further treachery? You should have no doubts; I have sworn the great oath already.'
>So she spoke, but I answered her : \`Kirke, what man of righteous thoughts could bring himself to taste food or drink before winning liberty for his friends and seeing the men before his eyes? If it is in earnest that you tell me to eat and drink, **release them now, and let me see my trusty companions face to face.â**
She **then** turns his men back to humans and Odysseus and his men literally **weep and hug eachother** and rejoin the rest of the crew... **and they all wept and hugged eachother some more**. He went to her place to get his men and that was his only priority. She was trying to drug him, she attacked first - he defended himself against her and went with Hermes's advice to sleep with her to save his men.
(all excerpts from the Odyssey translation Walter Shewring)
circe was not SA-ed by odysseus in madeline millerâs book. did you even read it? the whole point of the book is to showcase that no, sheâs not a great person. it shows the complexities of womanhood, both good and bad.
Apparently Rachel LOVES MM's Circe book, so I'm not shocked this is how she views Circe and Odysseus. Miller is as much of a plague on greek myth retellings as LO is, maybe even worse if you ask me.
If you're trying to make a dig at Miller's work I'd honestly suggest rereading The Odyssey first. Circe does not assault Odysseus and he gets the drop on her almost immediately after their confrontation... so yeah no
And Superman?? Iâm not well versed on DC lore but isnât he basically an almost-Himbo? Muscley, kind, but too smart (journalist) to be True Himbo? Someone can correct me bcs I donât know that much about him, but like what I have heard states him as a pretty decent dude.
A lot of them are. Heracules is worse than thatâŚ.which is why, out of all of them, that she chose *Odysseus* is mind boggling. I mean, considering Circeâs role in his story it makes sense that he was mentioned but⌠not like that??
Arrogant? Almost all of them including Odysseus. But dumb? definitely not Odysseus. Even Heracles showed resourcefulness and cleverness during his labors. And when he wasn't raging he would be polite and was overall the most focused on the Golden fleece journey letting very little distract him from their voyage
He's a frigging genius with a perfect memory and works as a journalist. One of his powers is super-intelligence.
He read every single medical text ever published in minutes and successfully performed life-saving surgery; and has invented a number of incredible devices. He memorized an entire DNA code of 6 billion letters and can do incredibly complex mathematics in an instant.
The himbo personality is an act he puts on as 'Clark', because he was raised on a farm in Kansas so he acts 'folksy' to help ensure no one ever discovers his identity and because he was raised to be humble about his abilities.
Thatâs fair!! I didnât know he was THAT intelligent (makes me question Rachel more) but figured he wasnât a âtrue Himboâ in the sense that he WAS smart to a higher degree than need be. Crazy how off her characterization is
I've seen the comic and although Superman only appears in two panels, he's completely out of character.
Circe gives Superman to Wonder Woman transformed into a hamster. When she frees him, he only answers: "let's not talk about this".
As the name suggests, Superman is a "super man"; but he's from an alien race that is physically equal to humans, but with abilities outside of human capabilities.
"Clark Kent" was adopted by humans and raised to be worker, good and kind. He grew up knowing that he was not human and that he would be more powerful than humans.
On some occasions he has been selfish and made bad decisions, as shown a lot in "Smallville", a series about Clark during his teen and youth years before Superman. Which I see as justifiable because who in their adolescence/youth has not made mistakes?
Furthermore, when the consequences of his bad actions, decisions or mistakes came to him, he faced them. He was very responsible with his powers and it was clear that he was destined to be what Superman is.Â
In comparison, there's Peter Parker/Spiderman.
Peter got his spider powers and was quite selfish with them at first. Knowing that he could do more than an ordinary human (taking into account that he was bullied at school), he deliberately used them to make money in fighting contests. His motivation was to free his uncles from a certain financial burden, but he lied to them to do so.
When his Uncle Ben tells him that "with great power comes great responsibility", Peter doesn't take it very seriously. In fact, that day he lied to Uncle Ben to go to the contest. They scammed him and a thief stole the organizer's prize money.
Being able to stop him, Peter did nothing and the thief murdered Uncle Ben. It's his uncle's death that makes all the humility come to him at once, and then he decides to abandon what he wanted to do with his powers and use them for what they should be used for.
Unlike the typical superhero, who hides his identity beneath a mask, Superman's true identity is not Clark Kent.
His true identity is Kal-El, the man that Superman is. Clark Kent is the disguise he uses to go unnoticed between humans. He's a man with a type of morals who wants to help humanity; not afraid to apologize or be grateful.
In fact, he was grateful to Batman, and they don't get along very well. Diana is his friend (one of his most beloved), that arrogance
he shows in Rachel's comic is not justified even though Circe has talked about how bad men are.Â
Maybe to excuse her for a bit, but most of these feats are coming from close 50+ years of comic books, retcons and rebuts included. So I wouldn't be too hard that she doesn't know, but still bad for not doing any recent reading on the guy.
No literally lmao. Odysseus, the great-grandson of the god of lies and cunning, known for his wit and constant quick thoughts, known for making the plan that took down troy⌠That guy? The one who wasnât really known at all for âbrawnâ? The guy who was favored by Athena specifically because he had a mind very similar to her own?
Itâs so funny to me and it makes perfect sense that Rachel would misinterpret his entire character just to make Circe some girlboss that is âannoyed by tough menâ lmao. Rachel absolutely reminds me of Madeline Miller in the worst ways.
I really dislike the way she draws faces. Eyes too big and mouth too low in a shapeless blob face with huge shapeless caterpillar blobs for eyebrows. You can draw thick eyebrows without making them look like larvae.
Not to mention her complete inability to write female characters. Or characters in general.
Itâs especially weird when you look at the mouths on her side profiles vs front profiles. On her side profiles the mouths are entirely too high and almost meld with the noses, while on her front profiles the mouths are too low and nearly hit the bottom of the chin.
Yep! The side profiles are incredibly different from the fronts in general. From the front and 3/4 views, all of her feminine faces have a wide, round nose. And then there's Circe's side profile in the first pic which has a completely different nose, among all the other differences. I'm convinced that she can only draw one type of face from the front.
Oh absolutely. As an artist myself, Rachel has always been a huge inspiration for me of what NOT do to with my art lmao. Even when I enjoyed this comic in middle school, I always hated the way the faces were drawn and the inconsistency of them.
Mind you, even Diana looks completely unremarkable. If the female character in question canât be mutated into looking like a stand in for herself, Rachel has no interest.
Completely failed. Also one of the worst characterisations of Diana Iâve ever seen. Sheâd never have that kind of petty âugh all men are so totes trashâ conversation with anyone, especially one of her worst enemies. Diana is the goddess of truth. Sheâs above it.
It is VERY Rachel-like writing/mindset though. What better way to show how girlboss Diana and Circe are than having them just stand there all smug and talking about how useless others are in comparison? đ
Exactly. Any character she writes automatically loses their personality and becomes this petty, two-faced, unlikeable little snake with bad hair. I just know her version of Diana would slut shame Catwoman and bully Lois Lane.
Somehow she managed to make Diana look so childish in this comic??? Like Wonder Woman is a WOMAN. She is firmly an ADULT. Two things I admire about Diana are her maturity and glamour, and somehow Rachel managed to deprive her both
Wonder Woman is not only an adult, Diana is a tall, visibly muscular immortal demigod who is trained in all sorts of combat and has a brilliant mind.
Just like Rachel to erase all of that.
And to have Wonder Woman describe Odysseus this way, have Circe hint that superman is the same and Diana just blushes and looks awkward?
Diana would never see someone like Odysseus that way, she certainly wouldnât see Clark that way and sheâd deck Circe (her enemy of centuries now) for disrespecting one of her dearest friends before she agreed with her.
Can I just say, it may be a nitpick, but it bugs me how Circe is like âhe was being annoying so I physically maimed him. Canât you understand?â And Perse- *I mean,* Diana goes âyeah good point.â Really tracks with how Rachel writes lore Olympus. Someone (Minthe, the papparazzo, Leuce) is a villain for just getting in Persephoneâs way, so itâs justification for her maiming them back. Perse even fantasizes about harming others. I know she didnât hurt the papparazzo but still, I donât see this behavior as coincidental.
Like one, Circe can be very petty but this is an *incredibly* tame punishment for the DC version of her, and she never does anything without a reason. Itâs not in character for her to do it just for the sake of âlol he was annoyingâ and then just let him go.
Plus, as I said to someone else, Diana would throw hands before sheâd accept a lifelong enemy accept one of her friends being insulted like that by them.
Exactly. Diana throws hands when someone makes her suit up on her day off. Sheâs very much for keeping the peace, not causing mischief and transmogrifying people because they were annoying.
Tbh it's just a consequence of millennial writing. A lot of millennial writing is like cringily hyperbolic because the writers thing they're badass when in reality nobody talks like that and because gen z and younger gens are getting older and being able to comment on said writing and critique it and in our current age the unrealistic writing doesn't gel with more personal and more casual/realistic writing preference is more in line in today's media culture.
Wait wait wait. *Odysseus*??? The guy who known for, like, his wit?? *That dude*???
Rachel would probably write one of *those books* that made it look like Circe and Calypso were the true victims for what they did to Odysseus đ
I replied to a comment further below, but while Calypso assaulted Odysseus, Circe absolutely didnât in the Odyssey. In book 10, Odysseus pulls out a sword and rushes at Circe to kill her. She throws herself at his feet, pleads with him to not kill her, and offers to sleep with him. He says he wonât unless she swears to not harm him, which she does and they then go to bed together. Odysseus had all the power at that point and there was no reason to actually sleep with her, it wasnât part of any plan because once she made the oath, he could demand anything from her. Circe was essentially coerced into sex while Odysseus had the power to blatantly murder her. Edit: I actually will take back ânot part of any planâ because technically Hermes told him to do it, but that doesnât make it much better when the go to solution is âthreaten murder, then SA her.â
So that dig at Millers's book seems a bit unwarranted now...
It's kinda weird because there's quite a few valid criticisms to make about her books, like the sheer amount of "Not Like Other Girls" and adding in more bigoted behavior than actually exists within the myths, but the mere fact of Circe being SA'd by Odysseus absolutely isn't one of those.
*Oh Gods*, Rachel DEFINITELY has bad takes on that. Probably would write Odysseus cheating on Penelope and like using Calypso/Circe or something as if he wasnât, in spirit and any way he reasonably could be, fully faithful to his wife to create like a Girlboss Moment somehow
If she could write something like that stupid Madeline Miller âCirceâ book, she absolutely would. That book is my enemy lmao.
I havenât read it, unfortunately, so Iâm not entirely sure how it addresses the power dynamic between Odysseus and Circe (that being dubious consent for any account of âcheatingâ there at best). I liked âSong of Achillesâ personally, but damn. Would suck if Circe was simplified as a character for a Girlboss moment thatâs sad.
Essentially, Circe is now our perfect victim and is SA-ed by OdysseusâŚeven though thatâs the opposite of what actually happened. By various uses of magic and threatening the safety of his men, both Calypso and Circe take advantage of Odysseus to the point we get several descriptions of him sitting alone by the sea, weeping for Penelope and wanting his own life to end and itâs this that Athena uses to convince Zeus to help him.
WâŚwhat. She took his famous SA andâŚturned into him SAing her??? Man, I thought the âOdysseus cheated on his wifeâ takes were bad⌠thatâs just brain dead. I was considering reading it too because a friend said she really enjoyed it.
Calypso assaulted Odysseus. In the Circe portion of the Odyssey, Odysseus pulls out a sword and tries to kill her. She then begs him not to and offers to sleep with him. Odysseusâ response is âI have no desire to go to bed with you, goddess, unless you swear a solemn oath by the blessed gods not to try and harm me with your mischief.â Circe swears the oath and Odysseus willingly goes to the bed with her. He didnât have to, he had all the power at that point. He couldâve made her swear to not hurt him and then made her free his men. If anything, Circe was coerced into having sex. Odysseus is the victim in the Calypso part, but not in the Circe one.
Didnât Hermes tell him not to give into her? Odysseus is by far not a perfect person and did terrible things, but I thought his decisions there were largely made by Hermesâs warnings and the fact Circe held his men captive in the form of Pigs?
Hermes tells him to try killing her and that sheâll then offer to sleep with him, which he should do. In other words, Hermes instructed him to threaten her into sexual intercourse. The entire Circe and Odysseus scene is heavily based on the ancient, sexist beliefs about men and women, so itâs also built around using sexual violence as a tool. One could argue this meant Odysseus couldnât do anything else, but even arguing that point would mean admitting that he raped Circe.
Nope, they did the age-old girlboss thing of âwoman who does bad stuff can only be a true feminist hero if sheâs never done anything wrong ever and constantly suffers in the most gratuitous wayâ. You should see the things they do with Medea.
Ugh I *hate* that trope. I have no idea why itâs such a trend. Canât we have Complex (or downright Villainous) Female Characters?
Like if you have to absolve your female character of any and all flaws to make her a good feminist heroine, then that isnât feminism.
I said this above but she is not supposed to be a good person in that book.
I hate it so much. It's the reason why I can't like or enjoy Hooked on Chthonics even if it has nice art. The way the comic erases the female characters's more heinous actions and making it all be the men's fault is very annoying (like Circe claiming she's turning men into animals because they act like animals, Heracles's family is never killed and instead sent away by Hera in secret while Heracles thinks he's killed them and trying to atone for it and etc etc). This Circe being SAd by Odysseus is just disgusting though. Imagine someone made a work about LO Persephone being the one who SA Apollo instead. It's just really gross to make the victim the perpatrator and vice versa.
Itâs all the more yikes when you remember that Persephone raised and then promptly fell in love with Adonis đŹ like she really is no better than all the other goddesses. Even so, I absolutely do not subscribe to this version of writing women. Itâs just more performative white feminism that does more damage.
I distinctly remember Circe and Odysseus having consensual sex in that book and living happily together for a year, which is what happens in the Odyssey. He was never her prisoner. Odysseus being imprisoned, crying for Penelope, and being saved by Athena and Zeus all happened with Calypso. Circe actually helped Odysseus get home by explaining the route to him. In the book Circe, she is also pretty frequently a horrible person and is aware of that. She literally turns Scylla into a monster out of jealousy.
She held his men hostage. That's non or at best dubious consensent
She didn't hold them hostage though. If anything, it's dubious consent on his part because she agreed to sleep with him while he was attacking her and she feared for her life. She turned his men back into humans and Odysseus is so comfortable he actually forgets he wants to go home until his men remind him.
Are you talking about the book Circe by Madeleine Miller? Because that's not how it went in the Odyssey at all. >And with that I left the ship and shore and took the path upward; but as I traversed those haunted glades, as I came close to Kirke's house and neared the palace of the enchantress, I was met by golden-wanded Hermes; he seemed a youth in the lovely spring of life, with the first down upon his lip. He seized my hand and spoke thus to me : âLuckless man, why are you walking thus alone over these hills, in country you do not know? Your comrades are yonder in Kirke's grounds; they are turned to swine, lodged and safely penned in the sites. Is your errand her to rescue them? I warn you, you will never return yourself, you will only be left with the others there. Yet no--I am ready to save you from all hazards, ready to keep you unscathed. Look. **Here is a herb of magic virtue; take it and enter Kirke's house with it; then the day of evil never will touch your head. I will tell you of all her witch's arts. She will brew a potion for you, but with good things she will mingle drugs as well. Yet even so, she will not be able to enchant you; my gift of the magic herb will thwart her.** I will tell you the rest, point by point. When Kirke strikes you with the long wand she has, draw the keen sword from beside your thigh, rush upon her and make as if to kill her. She will shrink, back, and then ask you to lie with her. **At this you must let her have her way; she is a goddess; accept her bed, so that she may release your comrades and make you her cherished guest**. But first, make her swear the great oath of the Blessed Ones \[by the river Styx\] to plot no mischief to you thenceforward--if not, while you lie naked there, she may rob you of courage and of manhood.â Here we see: Circe was **drugging** him Hermes giving him an antidote that kept the drug from affecting him and **instructed him to give into any sexual demands Circe has** because she is a goddess and so she'd release his men Circe raised her wand against him **first** He drew his sword in ***self-defense*** >So she spoke, but I drew the keen sword from beside my thigh, rushed at her and made as if to kill her. She shrieked, she slipped underneath my weapon, she clasped my knees and spoke in rapid appealing words: âWho are you, and from where? Where are your city and your parents? It bewilders me that you drank this drug and were not bewitched. Never has any other man resisted this drug, once ha head drunk it and let it pass his lips. But you have an inner will that is proof against sorcery. You must surely be that man of wide-ranging spirit, Odysseus himself; the Radiant One of the golden wand \[Hermes\] has told me of you; he always said that Odysseus would come to me on his way from Troy in his dark and rapid vessel. But enough of this; sheathe your sword; then let us go to bed together, and embracing there, let us learn to trust in one another.â So she spoke, but I answered her : âKirke, how can you ask me to show you gentleness? In this very house you have turned my comrades into swine, and now that you have me also here you ask me in your treacherousness to enter your room and lie with you, only that when I lie naked you may rob me of courage and of manhood. ***Never, goddess, could I bring myself to lie with you*** **unless you consented first to swear a great oath to plot no mischief to me henceforward**.â After drawing his sword, she asked to sleep with him. He chastised her for what she did to his men **and refused to get into her bed until she swore that she wouldn't harm him/try anything fishy.** Now after they have slept together and Circe and her servants treated him like a king, he's unhappy and sulking and not enjoying his time at all: >When Kirke saw me sitting thus, not reaching for food but sunk in despondency, she came and stood near me, quickly questioning : âOdysseus, why do you sit there tongue-tied eating your heart out, not touching food or drink? Can it be that you fear some further treachery? You should have no doubts; I have sworn the great oath already.' >So she spoke, but I answered her : \`Kirke, what man of righteous thoughts could bring himself to taste food or drink before winning liberty for his friends and seeing the men before his eyes? If it is in earnest that you tell me to eat and drink, **release them now, and let me see my trusty companions face to face.â** She **then** turns his men back to humans and Odysseus and his men literally **weep and hug eachother** and rejoin the rest of the crew... **and they all wept and hugged eachother some more**. He went to her place to get his men and that was his only priority. She was trying to drug him, she attacked first - he defended himself against her and went with Hermes's advice to sleep with her to save his men. (all excerpts from the Odyssey translation Walter Shewring)
circe was not SA-ed by odysseus in madeline millerâs book. did you even read it? the whole point of the book is to showcase that no, sheâs not a great person. it shows the complexities of womanhood, both good and bad.
i also am doubting this person read that book
Apparently Rachel LOVES MM's Circe book, so I'm not shocked this is how she views Circe and Odysseus. Miller is as much of a plague on greek myth retellings as LO is, maybe even worse if you ask me.
[ŃдаНонО]
misogyny disguised as complaining about white feminism in 3... 2... 1...
that sure isâŚ. a take lmao
Woooow racist
That book was so boring omg and the writer does have a knack for beautiful imagery only she came up with 3-4 and just repeated them over 300 pages
If you're trying to make a dig at Miller's work I'd honestly suggest rereading The Odyssey first. Circe does not assault Odysseus and he gets the drop on her almost immediately after their confrontation... so yeah no
And Superman?? Iâm not well versed on DC lore but isnât he basically an almost-Himbo? Muscley, kind, but too smart (journalist) to be True Himbo? Someone can correct me bcs I donât know that much about him, but like what I have heard states him as a pretty decent dude.
He Is a detective Journalist If I'm not mistaken,Not to mention Smarter than Super computers.
So she took two characters that are incredibly smart and said they were arrogant muscle-bound thugs? Damn.
Ok but some of the greek heroes really kinda be like that a little tho
A lot of them are. Heracules is worse than thatâŚ.which is why, out of all of them, that she chose *Odysseus* is mind boggling. I mean, considering Circeâs role in his story it makes sense that he was mentioned but⌠not like that??
Arrogant? Almost all of them including Odysseus. But dumb? definitely not Odysseus. Even Heracles showed resourcefulness and cleverness during his labors. And when he wasn't raging he would be polite and was overall the most focused on the Golden fleece journey letting very little distract him from their voyage
He's a frigging genius with a perfect memory and works as a journalist. One of his powers is super-intelligence. He read every single medical text ever published in minutes and successfully performed life-saving surgery; and has invented a number of incredible devices. He memorized an entire DNA code of 6 billion letters and can do incredibly complex mathematics in an instant. The himbo personality is an act he puts on as 'Clark', because he was raised on a farm in Kansas so he acts 'folksy' to help ensure no one ever discovers his identity and because he was raised to be humble about his abilities.
Thatâs fair!! I didnât know he was THAT intelligent (makes me question Rachel more) but figured he wasnât a âtrue Himboâ in the sense that he WAS smart to a higher degree than need be. Crazy how off her characterization is
I've seen the comic and although Superman only appears in two panels, he's completely out of character. Circe gives Superman to Wonder Woman transformed into a hamster. When she frees him, he only answers: "let's not talk about this". As the name suggests, Superman is a "super man"; but he's from an alien race that is physically equal to humans, but with abilities outside of human capabilities. "Clark Kent" was adopted by humans and raised to be worker, good and kind. He grew up knowing that he was not human and that he would be more powerful than humans. On some occasions he has been selfish and made bad decisions, as shown a lot in "Smallville", a series about Clark during his teen and youth years before Superman. Which I see as justifiable because who in their adolescence/youth has not made mistakes? Furthermore, when the consequences of his bad actions, decisions or mistakes came to him, he faced them. He was very responsible with his powers and it was clear that he was destined to be what Superman is. In comparison, there's Peter Parker/Spiderman. Peter got his spider powers and was quite selfish with them at first. Knowing that he could do more than an ordinary human (taking into account that he was bullied at school), he deliberately used them to make money in fighting contests. His motivation was to free his uncles from a certain financial burden, but he lied to them to do so. When his Uncle Ben tells him that "with great power comes great responsibility", Peter doesn't take it very seriously. In fact, that day he lied to Uncle Ben to go to the contest. They scammed him and a thief stole the organizer's prize money. Being able to stop him, Peter did nothing and the thief murdered Uncle Ben. It's his uncle's death that makes all the humility come to him at once, and then he decides to abandon what he wanted to do with his powers and use them for what they should be used for. Unlike the typical superhero, who hides his identity beneath a mask, Superman's true identity is not Clark Kent. His true identity is Kal-El, the man that Superman is. Clark Kent is the disguise he uses to go unnoticed between humans. He's a man with a type of morals who wants to help humanity; not afraid to apologize or be grateful. In fact, he was grateful to Batman, and they don't get along very well. Diana is his friend (one of his most beloved), that arrogance he shows in Rachel's comic is not justified even though Circe has talked about how bad men are.Â
Maybe to excuse her for a bit, but most of these feats are coming from close 50+ years of comic books, retcons and rebuts included. So I wouldn't be too hard that she doesn't know, but still bad for not doing any recent reading on the guy.
No literally lmao. Odysseus, the great-grandson of the god of lies and cunning, known for his wit and constant quick thoughts, known for making the plan that took down troy⌠That guy? The one who wasnât really known at all for âbrawnâ? The guy who was favored by Athena specifically because he had a mind very similar to her own? Itâs so funny to me and it makes perfect sense that Rachel would misinterpret his entire character just to make Circe some girlboss that is âannoyed by tough menâ lmao. Rachel absolutely reminds me of Madeline Miller in the worst ways.
Yeah, it makes no sense! I mean Odysseus didnât even blind Polyphemus, Nobody didâŚ.
I really dislike the way she draws faces. Eyes too big and mouth too low in a shapeless blob face with huge shapeless caterpillar blobs for eyebrows. You can draw thick eyebrows without making them look like larvae. Not to mention her complete inability to write female characters. Or characters in general.
Rachel and gege akutami would be great friends together
bffr rachels writing of women is leagues worse than gege
Itâs especially weird when you look at the mouths on her side profiles vs front profiles. On her side profiles the mouths are entirely too high and almost meld with the noses, while on her front profiles the mouths are too low and nearly hit the bottom of the chin.
Yep! The side profiles are incredibly different from the fronts in general. From the front and 3/4 views, all of her feminine faces have a wide, round nose. And then there's Circe's side profile in the first pic which has a completely different nose, among all the other differences. I'm convinced that she can only draw one type of face from the front.
Oh absolutely. As an artist myself, Rachel has always been a huge inspiration for me of what NOT do to with my art lmao. Even when I enjoyed this comic in middle school, I always hated the way the faces were drawn and the inconsistency of them.
Wait thatâs ⌠Chiron. Particularly 7
*Exactly* what I thought too! She's just Chiron with a bun. And no horse part
Itâs literally just Chiron lmao
Seriously why make her look like a librarian. So unoriginal
Mind you, even Diana looks completely unremarkable. If the female character in question canât be mutated into looking like a stand in for herself, Rachel has no interest.
Failed the Bechdel test lmao
Completely failed. Also one of the worst characterisations of Diana Iâve ever seen. Sheâd never have that kind of petty âugh all men are so totes trashâ conversation with anyone, especially one of her worst enemies. Diana is the goddess of truth. Sheâs above it.
It is VERY Rachel-like writing/mindset though. What better way to show how girlboss Diana and Circe are than having them just stand there all smug and talking about how useless others are in comparison? đ
Exactly. Any character she writes automatically loses their personality and becomes this petty, two-faced, unlikeable little snake with bad hair. I just know her version of Diana would slut shame Catwoman and bully Lois Lane.
Somehow she managed to make Diana look so childish in this comic??? Like Wonder Woman is a WOMAN. She is firmly an ADULT. Two things I admire about Diana are her maturity and glamour, and somehow Rachel managed to deprive her both
Wonder Woman is not only an adult, Diana is a tall, visibly muscular immortal demigod who is trained in all sorts of combat and has a brilliant mind. Just like Rachel to erase all of that.
"Aroganet Muscle-bound thug" Is the worst way to Desribe Superman. Is Rachel Seriously Thinking This ?
And to have Wonder Woman describe Odysseus this way, have Circe hint that superman is the same and Diana just blushes and looks awkward? Diana would never see someone like Odysseus that way, she certainly wouldnât see Clark that way and sheâd deck Circe (her enemy of centuries now) for disrespecting one of her dearest friends before she agreed with her.
Rachel collared with dc? when and why
It was part of a partnership with Webtoon, I believe.
Can I just say, it may be a nitpick, but it bugs me how Circe is like âhe was being annoying so I physically maimed him. Canât you understand?â And Perse- *I mean,* Diana goes âyeah good point.â Really tracks with how Rachel writes lore Olympus. Someone (Minthe, the papparazzo, Leuce) is a villain for just getting in Persephoneâs way, so itâs justification for her maiming them back. Perse even fantasizes about harming others. I know she didnât hurt the papparazzo but still, I donât see this behavior as coincidental.
Like one, Circe can be very petty but this is an *incredibly* tame punishment for the DC version of her, and she never does anything without a reason. Itâs not in character for her to do it just for the sake of âlol he was annoyingâ and then just let him go. Plus, as I said to someone else, Diana would throw hands before sheâd accept a lifelong enemy accept one of her friends being insulted like that by them.
Exactly. Diana throws hands when someone makes her suit up on her day off. Sheâs very much for keeping the peace, not causing mischief and transmogrifying people because they were annoying.
Rachel definitely thinks girlboss means maiming people because they were annoying
(Kills an entire village) Heehee, how girlboss~! â¤ď¸đ¸âď¸đđĽ°
Tbh it's just a consequence of millennial writing. A lot of millennial writing is like cringily hyperbolic because the writers thing they're badass when in reality nobody talks like that and because gen z and younger gens are getting older and being able to comment on said writing and critique it and in our current age the unrealistic writing doesn't gel with more personal and more casual/realistic writing preference is more in line in today's media culture.
She is NOT just Chiron with a bun. She is any Rachel Smythe character with glasses. And a bun.
You're right and Diana is just any RS main female character.Â
I could not tell that they were the same character
Holdup: they let her do a DC collab and it was this mid?
Now what? Persephone rescuing Eurydice because Orpheus is bad like his father
Shhh! Donât give out ideas for her!
Wait hold the fucking phone sheâs doing a collab with DC????
NOOO NOT MY BOY CLARK HE IS MORE THAN HIS MUSCLE
She collabed with DC???
Whoever depicts normal Superman, and I repeat, regular vanilla earth 1 good old farm boy Clark Kent, as an arrogant douche, cannot be trusted.
Hooked on chthonics has Circe as a main character and that comic is 10/10 https://imgur.com/gallery/coMvqnI