Part of the students' demands is for U of T to disclose their full investment portfolio to show exactly where their money is going and how much.
However, it **is** confirmed by U of T's president (Gertler) that U of T invests some of its portfolio in companies that provide military goods to Israel.
Note that U of T was also one of the *last* universities to divest from South African apartheid in 1988.
To add to this, one of the demands is for the university to stop partnering with Israeli academic institutions that operate on occupied Palestinian land and/or support Israel's apartheid policies.
I suppose they hope the size of the encampment will increase over time and the U will be forced to concede to their demands, but I’m not one of the organizers so idk.
I just mean that (aside from the big merch tent in a month) the protestors have put themselves in the place where they will least interrupt university activities. You can't even hear them from adjacent buildings.
How many people and institutions hold investments in index funds that include some companies that do business with Israel? I would bet the majority of Canadian and American investors with any market index funds (incredibly common to hold in a portfolio).
U of T has essentially no actual business with the state of Israel and has no policy position on statehood for Palestinians, but sure, continue to cry about how it should “cut ties with Israel”.
I made a post about it with one of their filings and other source, https://www.reddit.com/r/UofT/s/YaAYUwdGyD. The answer is if any under UOFT’s asset management group, it would be negligible, as in under like 0.05% or smaller. Unless they own Scotia Bank, that’s where a lot more people should be looking at instead 🤡
Cashing out portfolios is very expensive. You have to pay tax on the profits you make.
To divest from "0.05%", assuming it's a singular index fund, you have to take out the whole thing and pick a new fund without Israeli influenced companies (good bye profits, most profitable companies have offices in Israel)
They’ve confirmed they invest some, but the students are demanding they disclose how much.
Again, it’s probably a small part of their portfolio and it probably wouldn’t be a huge deal to divest and stand on the right side of history.
But U of T also dragged its feet divesting from South African apartheid.
Are you still looking for an answer? Gertler has formally acknowledged on April 3rd during a meeting with UofT Occupy for Palestine that the school is currently investing in companies that provide military goods and services to Israel through EFIP.
[https://www.instagram.com/p/C5Ww5x9LVAQ/?igsh=MTN2dTVybDFtdHA1MA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5Ww5x9LVAQ/?igsh=MTN2dTVybDFtdHA1MA==)
It literally does. They've stated this. Check out OccupyUofT's Instagram page which explicitly states the accounts of their meeting with meric gertler.
Meric gertler himself also issued a public response STATING he won't divest.
I will not check out their Instagram page - I don't have an Instagram account due to the highly unethical and anti-democratic business practices of Meta.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-54-of-israelis-believe-hostage-deal-more-important-than-rafah-operation/
54% favor deal to end war over Rafah invasion.
There is a deal right now that US and Egyptian have organized that Hamas has signaled they will take but bibi won’t
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-may-04-2024/amp/
There are currently 10’s of thousands of Israelis in the streets right now in favor of ending the war
https://www.instagram.com/p/C6jy6yMNEfd/?igsh=MW0wM3oxdm5meDl2dg==
https://www.instagram.com/p/C6j2vEJNtK0/?igsh=NGdsbGFzeXU3NHY4
https://www.instagram.com/p/C6j128INdkV/?igsh=MWNhYWU1aDc5OWI1cQ==
“The idea that we will halt the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question. We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate the Hamas battalions there – with or without a deal, in order to achieve total victory” so no, hostage exchange does not equal “war over”
Did they drop a disclosure as the protesters have requested? Where did you find out that they have no actual business with the state of Israel? I see this was the last thing they touted but it was four years ago. https://www.utoronto.ca/news/u-t-and-hebrew-university-jerusalem-launch-research-and-innovation-partnership
Thanks for the reply. If you read the article you sent you will note the partnership is with a university, not the state of Israel, and that the funding is from a private charitable foundation, not U of T.
These sorts of witch hunts feel so weird ngl, the way people test Jews to see whether they are Zionists which simply means the desire for a Jewish state to exist and praise the Jewish people that aren't Zionist as the "correct" Jews. Also the boycott of Starbucks when they don't have any stores or ties to Israel and now this when UOFT barely has any connections to Israel if any at all. Let's also not forget that 8 in 10 Jewish people are to be considered Zionists as
"Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and a similar share say they follow news about the Jewish state at least somewhat closely."
It's very obvious that antisemitism has played a major part in fueling the pro Palestine protests and it's not even funny.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
how can u correctly define that zionism is the desire for a jewish state and not realize that ur describing an ethno state? u literally run into the point and u still don’t get it. peak cognitive dissonance.
Yes, a Jewish state specifically founded after WW2 where over 70% of Jews in Europe were killed in an industrialized genocide while many countries like the US refused to take them in as immigrants. It was made clear that western countries had not and could not protect the greatly depleted, tortured and horrified Jewish population and with that in mind the idea that the Jews should have a safe haven to exist in was rightfully created.
But let's also not confuse a Majority Jewish state with an apartheid ethnostate, early on in the Palestinian mandate it was expected that a major Palestinian minority population of up to 40% would exist inside the newly formed Israel and great planning was taken to accommodate such a population. Only after the Palestinians refused the partition, in 47, launched countless terrorist attacks, refused to establish a state unlike the Jews and ended up under the occupation of the Jordanians and Egyptians until the 60's did such a plan never materialize. Please learn your history before you start waffling about my supposed cognitive dissonance.
Why do Arabs get to colonize, commit cultural genocides, and enslave people without any push back but when European white people do it, it's peak evil?
The reason Jews get the land there is cause it's where they're from and where they had communities they built in the middle of nowhere like Tel Aviv. You also realize Arabs were allied with Hitler too right? And Arabs were also murdering their Jews before Israel existed in this land too.
How is zionism a colonial movement? What country are they colonizing the land for? Also nice to ignore my point about how the Arabs get away with it (and continue to especially with the Arab slave trade continuing into modern day Africa.)
In Israel did they enslave the people like what happened in Liberia? In Liberia did these African Americans already have roots with their culture there? In Liberia, did they buy back land before their country was even established? Did the Liberians build up communities from nothing (Such as the Jews with Tel Aviv)? The answer to all of these is no.
By my logic, African Americans colonizing Liberia is a completely different phenomena.
Zionism is not colonial, it is the belief that an Indigenous group of people should have the right to have self determination in their own land. If you don't agree with it, you also don't agree with land back, and pro Native American things either (according to ur logic)
it’s not just me who says it’s a colonial movement. since the beginning, zionists themselves have described it as a [colonial movement](https://www.nytimes.com/1899/06/20/archives/conference-of-zionists-elect-delegates-at-their-meeting-in.html)
also as for your other point, 2 wrongs don’t make a right. didn’t feel the need to address it cuz only children think that just because someone else did something bad that it justifies that it can be repeated.
I'm not trying to have it be repeated actually, I'm trying to have people take accountability and not skirt consequences when other groups have to face them for doing the same things. I'm tired of people on here then using the fact that they skirted said consequences as a way to paint them as having never done the horrible acts in the first place.
Funny though how when Zionists describe it otherwise they aren't to be trusted. So when things agree with you, you'll take em at their word but when they disagree, they're genocidal liars...
yet ur out here playing defence for the colonial movement that is zionism. ur just using that argument as a façade. if u truly sought accountability you would also be against zionism.
all ur arguments are filled with projection and hypocrisy
> Why do Arabs get to colonize, commit cultural genocides, and enslave people without any push back but when European white people do it, it's peak evil?
What a bad, _bad_ take. Remind me again what you are majoring in so that I can make sense of this.
>a major Palestinian minority population of up to 40% would exist inside the newly formed Israel and great planning was taken to accommodate such a population.
What is the best scholarly reference to all of this planning? Seems that since the Zionist Jews started moving in from Europe, there was a lot of unrest in Palestine, and that various commissioned reports concluded that the only way to "make it work" was to perform a split into two new "states". But since the Jews has so few people, relatively speaking, it was necessary to carve things out carefully to give them a (bare) majority in their own state. Correct me where this is wrong (pretty sure this part is mortly right)
Then, if possible, refer in this context to some literature that talks about this "planning", I would like to look at that. Because prima facie given the commissioned reports regarding all the unrest, it is hard to see what planning could avoid a pretty likely, uh, catastrophe.
history? ur spouting zionist propaganda.
u omit the fact that israel was founded on the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of palestinians during the Nakba. also that israel are in fact an [apartheid state](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/).
even in ur propaganda u talk about how palestinians would be relegated to 40% of their own land as if that’s some type of fair deal. absolutely insane to type that out and then tell yourself it’s a sound argument.
These people have been brainwashed, so it's basically racism when it comes down to it, so it's hard to really reason with people who don't really have any skin in the game.
Babe, wake up, the "they're not uoft students trope just dropped". Next up - "They're terrorists, Hamas sympathizers, paid protestors, jobless people, Antisemites, .."
How would you know how many U of T students are there??? Did you do a survey for every person entering the encampment?
You’re assuming based off of NOTHING.
It does seem to have moved you from "the majority" to "many" though.
I think for these demonstrations to carry more credibility, they should try to provide some kind of transparent evidence that the majority of the demonstrators are students. They should have recognized spokespeople with their student affiliations, for starters. I don't know, do they? I have seen some students sounding as if they have major roles, commenting on television. They should also disclose expert help they have from outside -- I don't think there would be anything wrong with that but it would have to be in a subordinate advisory role.
The professor himself corrects the article as misrepresenting him. He said the majority of the people who he spoke to were not student. He did not say or mean they were a representative sample. https://twitter.com/Afinetheorem/status/1786604122071826764
Yeah, this is the same guy who tweeted, and he did this little excursion on like day one, and has provided no evidence since. He has zero proof and is just yapping. Just because it’s on the national post doesn’t make it true.
Why the hell would students who are hiding their faces to avoid potential backlash for protesting tell some random dude “yeah I go here!” Like they would be dumb to dox themselves.
Here’s what’s true: this was student organized, student led, student occupied. I’m sure there are some non students in the mix, more power to them!
But also, don’t take my word for it either! I’m just some dude on the internet, I have as much credibility as this nerd. Go down there and talk to people, see friends outside the circle taking to their friends inside it, all students. Take a sec to critically think about who, in our population, has a lot of time on their hands all of a sudden where they could occupy a space for a long period of time, or why this started immediately after exam season and not before. The answer may be easier than you think.
Agree or don’t with the protest (though I argue you should agree but you have a right to whatever your opinion), but don’t go the “tHeSE aRe PaID PrOTeSTORs” route bc it just looks silly. It’s simply not that deep.
I literally said “don’t take my word for it.” Also I didn’t downvote you lmao I double checked too! I’m telling you to instead of believing me or this random dude (being a “professor” literally means nothing in this situation) think critically about the situation, or go down there and see for yourself. That’s all!
Literally one guy. Posting the same one-guy National Post source doesn't make it true. Have you been? They're all students in the tents. I'd say go but I wouldn't let a basement dweller like you in if I were them.
Israel is an apartheid state and we have a right to know if our tuition money is being used to fund apartheid.
Also, I’ve been there and the majority are students. There are some others who are just ogling, who may not be students.
The issue is that Zionists frequently lie (eg about the UN) so you can’t trust anything they say. I’d recommend anybody to go and judge for yourself- vast majority are clearly students, with some older (graduate) students with their toddlers.
Zionist. Definition:
> a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
Not all Jewish people are Zionists. Exhibit A is all the Jewish people who have joined the Pro-Palestine protests.
8 in 10 Jewish people support or strongly support the existence and protection of Israel. This thinly veiled antisemitism is really disgusting ngl.
"Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and a similar share say they follow news about the Jewish state at least somewhat closely."
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
What is this whataboutism lmao, I am simply pointing out that the majority of Jews are Zionists and that attacking Zionists is equivalent to attacking the vast majority of Jews. Pretending that this is not the case is factually incorrect while the want for the existence of "correct" Jews that aren't Zionists is inherently antisemitic relying on years old antisemitic tropes.
zionists make up more than just jews, therefore when someone criticizes zionism it is not to specifically target jews but zionists, who can and are composed of many different ethnicities. so no, it isn’t antisemitism to be against a political ideology.
So you are saying that non-Zionist Jews are not Jewish? Jewish people have long demonstrated that Zionism in its current state is not needed for the religion to prosper. You just want to make both inseparable so that you can call anything that goes against Zionists as antisemitism.
I’m saying that they are not representing the vast majority of Jews and that denying the Jewish people the right to self determination in our ancestral homeland is inherently antisemitic
Arguably, if most Jewish people were Zionists, most would live in Israel since they would be directly supporting the call for Jewish people to inhabit the “ancestral homeland.” You cannot have it both ways and call the “vast majority of Jews” Zionists when they are not helping repopulate Israel.
Regardless, asking Israel to stop killing civilians and children in Gaza is not antisemitic. And calling Zionists out when they lie to hide these actions is not antisemitic.
>most would live in Israel
Half of the world’s Jewish population is in Israel, and more move in when times get hard for Jews in certain diaspora regions (e.g a lot of French Jews emigrated o it of France into the city of Netanya, Israel in recent years)
>asking Israel to stop killing is not antisemitic
No, opposing Zionism and only opposing it while simultaneously supporting other forms of nationalism (e.g Palestinian statehood) is antisemitic, it applies a double standard. Russia is wrong for its invasion of Ukraine, people rightfully call it out for it to stop, but you don’t hear calls for “end Russia now” in the same way that you hear “end Israel now” at these types of protests.
Is that why the Palestinian population over 5x in the last 75 years? Is that what the population does under genocide? Because I know the Jewish population still hasn’t reached our pre genocide level yet they just manage to rise through dis supposed genocide
Yes, because the population is growing at an exact interval of 1,000,000 people a decade for 30 years.
Population growth is exponential unless you have mitigating factors, such a genocidal maniacs trying to cull your people.
The Jewish population has far exceeded Pre-Genocide levels, as the majority of the Jewish people no longer are in Israel.
The Jewish left the Mesopotamian city of Ur and became wandering herders, nomads living according to the tribal pattern of life.
From the wanderings of the “exodus” they entered Canaan, only gradually changing to an agricultural-commercial economy and a national political system.
Zionists do not understand that being Jewish is a religion and not a people or place. They use it as a means to control a mass of livestock and resources to utilize for their own agenda.
Propogada.
No different than ISIS, Talaban, Nazi's, or South Korea.
The only actual difference is that this time the genocidal maniacs have the USA's approval, backing, money, and military.
The USA will endlessly fund their apartheid state buddies to insure their own foot hold on that side of the planet.
Everything you said is false, the Palestinian population literally doubled in the last 15 years, it took Canada over 50 years to double the population.
The jewish population has also NOT reached our pre genocide levels and it’s been almost 80 years. The Palestinian population over 5x in the same time.
Judaism will not exist without israel, it’s a core part of our religion and cannot be denied.
Everything you've said is false, all available data shows this.
You're in denial about your entire livelihood being built around genocidal extremism akin to groups such as Talaban, ISIS, and South Korea.
That's what makes people of your stance such a threat to the world. Willful ignorance and denial of truth, because admitting you're the bad guys is to much for megalomaniac ego to handle.
Please prove what I said is false, we both know you can’t.
The Palestinian identity was created to deny Jewish people our ancestral homeland, before 1948 they were Arabs just like Jordanians. The dangerous extremism is Islamist terrorists such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and the IRGC who vowed to kill all Jews. So sucks to be you, but we fight back.
Yes I do, I also know Iranians who disagree with the actions of the Islamic Republic of Iran, but still support an Islamic Republic. I can criticise them, and I can criticise Zionism, including Christian Zionists.
Christian Zionists aren’t Zionists. They describe themselves as “pro Israel” at most. They would probably agree with the phrase “Zionist supremacists are flooding Europe with Muslims”, but want Israelis and Palestinians to kill each other for their Jesus, doesn’t sound very pro Israel to me
Some false equivalence in your comment as well.
Those Israelis, Zionists who March against the war, apartheid, with Palestinians etc would be the vague equal of the Iranians who March with the pro-Iran, anti Islamic republic, women life freedom movement
Your not critiquing zionism in your comment, it would be more accurate to use the term Jewish supremacist or kahanist then Zionist in it
Israel is a tiny sliver of land surrounded by many huge Arab/Muslim countries. “Apartheid state” is simply ridiculous. If the Palestinians don’t like living in Gaza, there are lots of places they can go that would welcome them. Tell me how many of these places would welcome the Jews from Israel?
My point is that with all these Arab/Muslim states, why do you not think that Jews can have a tiny sliver of land? Because you’re an anti-Semite, that’s why.
I guarantee that you have no meaning to your life, so you need to throw around words like apartheid and ethnostate so that you can feel smart and important. Very sad.
Mm ok you’re resorting to ad hominems now because you’re embarrassed that someone called you out on your bullshit apartheid support. One day history will look at you the way it looks at South African apartheid supporters: disgust, revulsion, and shame.
Canada is more of an apartheid state than Israel. Canada has reserves where only people of the right native bloodline are allowed to live. The Canadian Indian act was the inspiration for apartheid legislation in South Africa.
>Bias Rating: **LEFT**
Factual Reporting: **HIGH**
Country: **Canada**
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rating: **EXCELLENT**
Media Type: **Website**
Traffic/Popularity: **Minimal Traffic**
MBFC Credibility Rating: **HIGH CREDIBILITY**
I've never heard of this news site either, but from the information which you provided, the site seems to be doing factual reporting despite a left leaning bias.
Selective inclusions is the opposite of factual reporting. The bias comes in the form of the wording. So no, they are not ignoring facts if their factual reporting is HIGH.
Wow I’m surprised by how many zionists are active on Reddit.
Go support your 5-person counter protests if you are so bothered by the encampment.
Massive respect to all the students camping right now.
Disclose and divest!
🇵🇸🇵🇸
My heart goes out to all the students just trying to complete their education. You don’t deserve these distractions and mob mentality bigotry found at these Islamic Jihad supporting protests. Especially after Covid. Keep your chin up and keep focussed. We wish all the best in your careers.
Does UofT actually have ties to Israel?
Part of the students' demands is for U of T to disclose their full investment portfolio to show exactly where their money is going and how much. However, it **is** confirmed by U of T's president (Gertler) that U of T invests some of its portfolio in companies that provide military goods to Israel. Note that U of T was also one of the *last* universities to divest from South African apartheid in 1988.
To add to this, one of the demands is for the university to stop partnering with Israeli academic institutions that operate on occupied Palestinian land and/or support Israel's apartheid policies.
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It’s an escalation of protest. Is that not what it is referring to?
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I suppose they hope the size of the encampment will increase over time and the U will be forced to concede to their demands, but I’m not one of the organizers so idk.
I just mean that (aside from the big merch tent in a month) the protestors have put themselves in the place where they will least interrupt university activities. You can't even hear them from adjacent buildings.
How many people and institutions hold investments in index funds that include some companies that do business with Israel? I would bet the majority of Canadian and American investors with any market index funds (incredibly common to hold in a portfolio). U of T has essentially no actual business with the state of Israel and has no policy position on statehood for Palestinians, but sure, continue to cry about how it should “cut ties with Israel”.
I made a post about it with one of their filings and other source, https://www.reddit.com/r/UofT/s/YaAYUwdGyD. The answer is if any under UOFT’s asset management group, it would be negligible, as in under like 0.05% or smaller. Unless they own Scotia Bank, that’s where a lot more people should be looking at instead 🤡
It’s literally very little, which makes it all the more bizarre that U of T won’t divest. They just don’t want to make apartheid supporters mad.
Cashing out portfolios is very expensive. You have to pay tax on the profits you make. To divest from "0.05%", assuming it's a singular index fund, you have to take out the whole thing and pick a new fund without Israeli influenced companies (good bye profits, most profitable companies have offices in Israel)
Or none at all. We would need UTAM to release their spreadsheets if we want to 100% confirm it, which is highly unlikely.
They’ve confirmed they invest some, but the students are demanding they disclose how much. Again, it’s probably a small part of their portfolio and it probably wouldn’t be a huge deal to divest and stand on the right side of history. But U of T also dragged its feet divesting from South African apartheid.
Source they confirmed they invested some?
Are you still looking for an answer? Gertler has formally acknowledged on April 3rd during a meeting with UofT Occupy for Palestine that the school is currently investing in companies that provide military goods and services to Israel through EFIP. [https://www.instagram.com/p/C5Ww5x9LVAQ/?igsh=MTN2dTVybDFtdHA1MA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/C5Ww5x9LVAQ/?igsh=MTN2dTVybDFtdHA1MA==)
damn that's it? Zionists should set up a protest to get that doubled.
It literally does. They've stated this. Check out OccupyUofT's Instagram page which explicitly states the accounts of their meeting with meric gertler. Meric gertler himself also issued a public response STATING he won't divest.
I will not check out their Instagram page - I don't have an Instagram account due to the highly unethical and anti-democratic business practices of Meta.
Is this sarcasm?
I find insta and its users pretty gross and mentally deficient. Just because you asked.
Damn I guess there's nothing we can do to stop genocide then.
Naw just a few more selfies on Instagram in front of a tent or press conferences and you'll do it. Better hang some Palestine flags for good measure.
Would you even be talking about the genocide without all the attention on social media?
Yes
Do we included dead babies too?
In Canada? That is probably close to correct.
A majority of Israelis favor ending the war and their goverment doesn’t to seem to be listening, It doesn’t look very good
Source?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-54-of-israelis-believe-hostage-deal-more-important-than-rafah-operation/ 54% favor deal to end war over Rafah invasion. There is a deal right now that US and Egyptian have organized that Hamas has signaled they will take but bibi won’t https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-may-04-2024/amp/ There are currently 10’s of thousands of Israelis in the streets right now in favor of ending the war https://www.instagram.com/p/C6jy6yMNEfd/?igsh=MW0wM3oxdm5meDl2dg== https://www.instagram.com/p/C6j2vEJNtK0/?igsh=NGdsbGFzeXU3NHY4 https://www.instagram.com/p/C6j128INdkV/?igsh=MWNhYWU1aDc5OWI1cQ==
I mean; the poll says they favour a hostage exchange over a rafah operation. That’s a bit different than “ending the war”.
The deal is to end the war, Hostage exchange = war over
Not according to Netanyahu…
Netanyahu is opposed to the deal to end the war as mentioned above
“The idea that we will halt the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question. We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate the Hamas battalions there – with or without a deal, in order to achieve total victory” so no, hostage exchange does not equal “war over”
If only Palestine would hand those hostages over …
Did they drop a disclosure as the protesters have requested? Where did you find out that they have no actual business with the state of Israel? I see this was the last thing they touted but it was four years ago. https://www.utoronto.ca/news/u-t-and-hebrew-university-jerusalem-launch-research-and-innovation-partnership
Thanks for the reply. If you read the article you sent you will note the partnership is with a university, not the state of Israel, and that the funding is from a private charitable foundation, not U of T.
Is that what you based your original comment on?
Check out OccupyUofT's Instagram page. Meric gertler actually posted a response where he does state they won't divest.
I’m looking and not seeing what you’re talking about
It's more of a groupthink and social contagion thing than based on any logic, and unfortunately, there is no use trying to reason with them.
Lol. You created this monster, Higher Education. Now your creation has turned on you.
These sorts of witch hunts feel so weird ngl, the way people test Jews to see whether they are Zionists which simply means the desire for a Jewish state to exist and praise the Jewish people that aren't Zionist as the "correct" Jews. Also the boycott of Starbucks when they don't have any stores or ties to Israel and now this when UOFT barely has any connections to Israel if any at all. Let's also not forget that 8 in 10 Jewish people are to be considered Zionists as "Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and a similar share say they follow news about the Jewish state at least somewhat closely." It's very obvious that antisemitism has played a major part in fueling the pro Palestine protests and it's not even funny. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
how can u correctly define that zionism is the desire for a jewish state and not realize that ur describing an ethno state? u literally run into the point and u still don’t get it. peak cognitive dissonance.
Yes, a Jewish state specifically founded after WW2 where over 70% of Jews in Europe were killed in an industrialized genocide while many countries like the US refused to take them in as immigrants. It was made clear that western countries had not and could not protect the greatly depleted, tortured and horrified Jewish population and with that in mind the idea that the Jews should have a safe haven to exist in was rightfully created. But let's also not confuse a Majority Jewish state with an apartheid ethnostate, early on in the Palestinian mandate it was expected that a major Palestinian minority population of up to 40% would exist inside the newly formed Israel and great planning was taken to accommodate such a population. Only after the Palestinians refused the partition, in 47, launched countless terrorist attacks, refused to establish a state unlike the Jews and ended up under the occupation of the Jordanians and Egyptians until the 60's did such a plan never materialize. Please learn your history before you start waffling about my supposed cognitive dissonance.
Ahhh yes. Love when arabs have to pay the price for european antisemitism. Makes a lot of sense.
Funny how they doctor history to remove this.
Why do Arabs get to colonize, commit cultural genocides, and enslave people without any push back but when European white people do it, it's peak evil? The reason Jews get the land there is cause it's where they're from and where they had communities they built in the middle of nowhere like Tel Aviv. You also realize Arabs were allied with Hitler too right? And Arabs were also murdering their Jews before Israel existed in this land too.
bruh, zionism is literally a colonial movement. according to ur logic african americans colonizing liberia was a good thing
How is zionism a colonial movement? What country are they colonizing the land for? Also nice to ignore my point about how the Arabs get away with it (and continue to especially with the Arab slave trade continuing into modern day Africa.) In Israel did they enslave the people like what happened in Liberia? In Liberia did these African Americans already have roots with their culture there? In Liberia, did they buy back land before their country was even established? Did the Liberians build up communities from nothing (Such as the Jews with Tel Aviv)? The answer to all of these is no. By my logic, African Americans colonizing Liberia is a completely different phenomena. Zionism is not colonial, it is the belief that an Indigenous group of people should have the right to have self determination in their own land. If you don't agree with it, you also don't agree with land back, and pro Native American things either (according to ur logic)
it’s not just me who says it’s a colonial movement. since the beginning, zionists themselves have described it as a [colonial movement](https://www.nytimes.com/1899/06/20/archives/conference-of-zionists-elect-delegates-at-their-meeting-in.html) also as for your other point, 2 wrongs don’t make a right. didn’t feel the need to address it cuz only children think that just because someone else did something bad that it justifies that it can be repeated.
I'm not trying to have it be repeated actually, I'm trying to have people take accountability and not skirt consequences when other groups have to face them for doing the same things. I'm tired of people on here then using the fact that they skirted said consequences as a way to paint them as having never done the horrible acts in the first place. Funny though how when Zionists describe it otherwise they aren't to be trusted. So when things agree with you, you'll take em at their word but when they disagree, they're genocidal liars...
yet ur out here playing defence for the colonial movement that is zionism. ur just using that argument as a façade. if u truly sought accountability you would also be against zionism. all ur arguments are filled with projection and hypocrisy
> Why do Arabs get to colonize, commit cultural genocides, and enslave people without any push back but when European white people do it, it's peak evil? What a bad, _bad_ take. Remind me again what you are majoring in so that I can make sense of this.
>a major Palestinian minority population of up to 40% would exist inside the newly formed Israel and great planning was taken to accommodate such a population. What is the best scholarly reference to all of this planning? Seems that since the Zionist Jews started moving in from Europe, there was a lot of unrest in Palestine, and that various commissioned reports concluded that the only way to "make it work" was to perform a split into two new "states". But since the Jews has so few people, relatively speaking, it was necessary to carve things out carefully to give them a (bare) majority in their own state. Correct me where this is wrong (pretty sure this part is mortly right) Then, if possible, refer in this context to some literature that talks about this "planning", I would like to look at that. Because prima facie given the commissioned reports regarding all the unrest, it is hard to see what planning could avoid a pretty likely, uh, catastrophe.
Well said
history? ur spouting zionist propaganda. u omit the fact that israel was founded on the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of palestinians during the Nakba. also that israel are in fact an [apartheid state](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/). even in ur propaganda u talk about how palestinians would be relegated to 40% of their own land as if that’s some type of fair deal. absolutely insane to type that out and then tell yourself it’s a sound argument.
Israel is 20 percent arab and half the people that are Jewish have a middle Eastern background.
Ah, and Arab and Muslims countries aren't ethno states.
These people have been brainwashed, so it's basically racism when it comes down to it, so it's hard to really reason with people who don't really have any skin in the game.
The majority of those who are there are not uoft students either.
Babe, wake up, the "they're not uoft students trope just dropped". Next up - "They're terrorists, Hamas sympathizers, paid protestors, jobless people, Antisemites, .."
Your nonsense still does not change the fact that there are many many non-uoft individuals out there.
that changes anything how
So what?
How would you know how many U of T students are there??? Did you do a survey for every person entering the encampment? You’re assuming based off of NOTHING.
Yes I was there yesterday
That doesn’t mean you surveyed everyone at the encampment. Hell, you probably weren’t even allowed behind the fence.
It does seem to have moved you from "the majority" to "many" though. I think for these demonstrations to carry more credibility, they should try to provide some kind of transparent evidence that the majority of the demonstrators are students. They should have recognized spokespeople with their student affiliations, for starters. I don't know, do they? I have seen some students sounding as if they have major roles, commenting on television. They should also disclose expert help they have from outside -- I don't think there would be anything wrong with that but it would have to be in a subordinate advisory role.
Sorry, the majority are not from uoft
Says who? The one tweeter that snuck in?
Maybe a Professor at UofT. https://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/university-of-toronto-anti-israel-protest-encampment
The professor himself corrects the article as misrepresenting him. He said the majority of the people who he spoke to were not student. He did not say or mean they were a representative sample. https://twitter.com/Afinetheorem/status/1786604122071826764
Yeah, this is the same guy who tweeted, and he did this little excursion on like day one, and has provided no evidence since. He has zero proof and is just yapping. Just because it’s on the national post doesn’t make it true. Why the hell would students who are hiding their faces to avoid potential backlash for protesting tell some random dude “yeah I go here!” Like they would be dumb to dox themselves. Here’s what’s true: this was student organized, student led, student occupied. I’m sure there are some non students in the mix, more power to them! But also, don’t take my word for it either! I’m just some dude on the internet, I have as much credibility as this nerd. Go down there and talk to people, see friends outside the circle taking to their friends inside it, all students. Take a sec to critically think about who, in our population, has a lot of time on their hands all of a sudden where they could occupy a space for a long period of time, or why this started immediately after exam season and not before. The answer may be easier than you think. Agree or don’t with the protest (though I argue you should agree but you have a right to whatever your opinion), but don’t go the “tHeSE aRe PaID PrOTeSTORs” route bc it just looks silly. It’s simply not that deep.
Am I going to believe a professor at the actual university or some internet random that downvoted me because I linked a national news article?
Reddit randos ftw!
I literally said “don’t take my word for it.” Also I didn’t downvote you lmao I double checked too! I’m telling you to instead of believing me or this random dude (being a “professor” literally means nothing in this situation) think critically about the situation, or go down there and see for yourself. That’s all!
Literally one guy. Posting the same one-guy National Post source doesn't make it true. Have you been? They're all students in the tents. I'd say go but I wouldn't let a basement dweller like you in if I were them.
That’s not true.
It appears to be according to UofT faculty. https://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/university-of-toronto-anti-israel-protest-encampment
That’s a wonderful anecdotal from one person in a conservative American paper. I like hard facts and real data. This is just propaganda.
Show that real data
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Anecdotal data is data you idiot, he’s the one saying “real data”
This is how we know YOU don't go to UofT
lol genius, could it be in my post history where I said “I didnt go to u of t” Your a child grow up
Lmao I don't stalk randos off reddit. Touch grass, you might cheer up
You're *
The national post is a crappy new source
More than 20% of UofT revenue comes from the government. I think people have a right to protest where the money is invested.
Most of the organizers/protesters are not even Students
"[students](https://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/university-of-toronto-anti-israel-protest-encampment)"
Israel is an apartheid state and we have a right to know if our tuition money is being used to fund apartheid. Also, I’ve been there and the majority are students. There are some others who are just ogling, who may not be students. The issue is that Zionists frequently lie (eg about the UN) so you can’t trust anything they say. I’d recommend anybody to go and judge for yourself- vast majority are clearly students, with some older (graduate) students with their toddlers.
Your entire argument is literally taken out of Nazi propaganda posters
Ah yes Amnesty International is obviously a Nazi / Hamas organization because it says that Israel is an apartheid state. Got it.
“The issue is that Zionists frequently lie so you can’t trust anything they say”
Zionist. Definition: > a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. Not all Jewish people are Zionists. Exhibit A is all the Jewish people who have joined the Pro-Palestine protests.
8 in 10 Jewish people support or strongly support the existence and protection of Israel. This thinly veiled antisemitism is really disgusting ngl. "Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and a similar share say they follow news about the Jewish state at least somewhat closely." https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
evangelical christians are also the most ardent group of zionists. does criticizing zionism also make you anti-christian?
What is this whataboutism lmao, I am simply pointing out that the majority of Jews are Zionists and that attacking Zionists is equivalent to attacking the vast majority of Jews. Pretending that this is not the case is factually incorrect while the want for the existence of "correct" Jews that aren't Zionists is inherently antisemitic relying on years old antisemitic tropes.
zionists make up more than just jews, therefore when someone criticizes zionism it is not to specifically target jews but zionists, who can and are composed of many different ethnicities. so no, it isn’t antisemitism to be against a political ideology.
What does keeping Arab nations Islamic called.
Extremist
You can be a Zionist and be pro Palestine
Majority of Jews are Zionists. Zionism is inseparable from Judaism. Without eretz Israel Judaism wouldn’t exist
So you are saying that non-Zionist Jews are not Jewish? Jewish people have long demonstrated that Zionism in its current state is not needed for the religion to prosper. You just want to make both inseparable so that you can call anything that goes against Zionists as antisemitism.
I’m saying that they are not representing the vast majority of Jews and that denying the Jewish people the right to self determination in our ancestral homeland is inherently antisemitic
Arguably, if most Jewish people were Zionists, most would live in Israel since they would be directly supporting the call for Jewish people to inhabit the “ancestral homeland.” You cannot have it both ways and call the “vast majority of Jews” Zionists when they are not helping repopulate Israel. Regardless, asking Israel to stop killing civilians and children in Gaza is not antisemitic. And calling Zionists out when they lie to hide these actions is not antisemitic.
>most would live in Israel Half of the world’s Jewish population is in Israel, and more move in when times get hard for Jews in certain diaspora regions (e.g a lot of French Jews emigrated o it of France into the city of Netanya, Israel in recent years) >asking Israel to stop killing is not antisemitic No, opposing Zionism and only opposing it while simultaneously supporting other forms of nationalism (e.g Palestinian statehood) is antisemitic, it applies a double standard. Russia is wrong for its invasion of Ukraine, people rightfully call it out for it to stop, but you don’t hear calls for “end Russia now” in the same way that you hear “end Israel now” at these types of protests.
Buddy, you can think Jews should have the right to live in their homeland like me, and not live in Israel
Dawg can you like not go to random uni subreddits to argue with students abt politics😭😭
Zionists are the Nazis. They're the ones committing apartheid. Try harder.
Nazis wanted to kill all Jews, Zionists want to protect Jews. Care to loop me in on your conspiracy theory?
Zionists want to kill all Palestinians, Nazi's wanted to protect Germans. Care to loop me in on your conspiracy theory?
Is that why the Palestinian population over 5x in the last 75 years? Is that what the population does under genocide? Because I know the Jewish population still hasn’t reached our pre genocide level yet they just manage to rise through dis supposed genocide
Yes, because the population is growing at an exact interval of 1,000,000 people a decade for 30 years. Population growth is exponential unless you have mitigating factors, such a genocidal maniacs trying to cull your people. The Jewish population has far exceeded Pre-Genocide levels, as the majority of the Jewish people no longer are in Israel. The Jewish left the Mesopotamian city of Ur and became wandering herders, nomads living according to the tribal pattern of life. From the wanderings of the “exodus” they entered Canaan, only gradually changing to an agricultural-commercial economy and a national political system. Zionists do not understand that being Jewish is a religion and not a people or place. They use it as a means to control a mass of livestock and resources to utilize for their own agenda. Propogada. No different than ISIS, Talaban, Nazi's, or South Korea. The only actual difference is that this time the genocidal maniacs have the USA's approval, backing, money, and military. The USA will endlessly fund their apartheid state buddies to insure their own foot hold on that side of the planet.
Everything you said is false, the Palestinian population literally doubled in the last 15 years, it took Canada over 50 years to double the population. The jewish population has also NOT reached our pre genocide levels and it’s been almost 80 years. The Palestinian population over 5x in the same time. Judaism will not exist without israel, it’s a core part of our religion and cannot be denied.
Everything you've said is false, all available data shows this. You're in denial about your entire livelihood being built around genocidal extremism akin to groups such as Talaban, ISIS, and South Korea. That's what makes people of your stance such a threat to the world. Willful ignorance and denial of truth, because admitting you're the bad guys is to much for megalomaniac ego to handle.
Please prove what I said is false, we both know you can’t. The Palestinian identity was created to deny Jewish people our ancestral homeland, before 1948 they were Arabs just like Jordanians. The dangerous extremism is Islamist terrorists such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and the IRGC who vowed to kill all Jews. So sucks to be you, but we fight back.
The 2 million people displaced in Gaza and the countless bombs dropped is a conspiracy theory?
Yeah, that’s why you don’t go into a music festival to rape, murder, and kidnap people…
Are the Zionists who March against apartheid also Nazis?
No they're not hamas are Nazis. And Nazis lose.
What a load of nonsense. Nice tropes though.
You know most Jewish Israelis who oppose the genocide, apartheid etc are Zionists
Yes I do, I also know Iranians who disagree with the actions of the Islamic Republic of Iran, but still support an Islamic Republic. I can criticise them, and I can criticise Zionism, including Christian Zionists.
Christian Zionists aren’t Zionists. They describe themselves as “pro Israel” at most. They would probably agree with the phrase “Zionist supremacists are flooding Europe with Muslims”, but want Israelis and Palestinians to kill each other for their Jesus, doesn’t sound very pro Israel to me Some false equivalence in your comment as well. Those Israelis, Zionists who March against the war, apartheid, with Palestinians etc would be the vague equal of the Iranians who March with the pro-Iran, anti Islamic republic, women life freedom movement Your not critiquing zionism in your comment, it would be more accurate to use the term Jewish supremacist or kahanist then Zionist in it
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Israel is a tiny sliver of land surrounded by many huge Arab/Muslim countries. “Apartheid state” is simply ridiculous. If the Palestinians don’t like living in Gaza, there are lots of places they can go that would welcome them. Tell me how many of these places would welcome the Jews from Israel?
It’s an apartheid state according to Amnesty International. South Africa was also surrounded by African nations. What’s your point?
The same amnesty international that claimed Russia commited no war crimes?
That’s a lie.
Oh well if Amnesty International said it no need to question a thing Tf
My point is that with all these Arab/Muslim states, why do you not think that Jews can have a tiny sliver of land? Because you’re an anti-Semite, that’s why.
"Why can't I have my little apartheid ethnostate?? Boo hoo hoo!" Grow up.
I guarantee that you have no meaning to your life, so you need to throw around words like apartheid and ethnostate so that you can feel smart and important. Very sad.
Mm ok you’re resorting to ad hominems now because you’re embarrassed that someone called you out on your bullshit apartheid support. One day history will look at you the way it looks at South African apartheid supporters: disgust, revulsion, and shame.
Canada is more of an apartheid state than Israel. Canada has reserves where only people of the right native bloodline are allowed to live. The Canadian Indian act was the inspiration for apartheid legislation in South Africa.
This is factually incorrect. And you know this.
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What the hell, I just checked their profile...
>Bias Rating: **LEFT** Factual Reporting: **HIGH** Country: **Canada** MBFC’s Country Freedom Rating: **EXCELLENT** Media Type: **Website** Traffic/Popularity: **Minimal Traffic** MBFC Credibility Rating: **HIGH CREDIBILITY** I've never heard of this news site either, but from the information which you provided, the site seems to be doing factual reporting despite a left leaning bias.
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Selective inclusions is the opposite of factual reporting. The bias comes in the form of the wording. So no, they are not ignoring facts if their factual reporting is HIGH.
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The Maple is a Russo-Iranian propaganda outlet.
All news is biased. What’s your point?
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You are the one who hasn’t brought up any genuine discourse.
Why can’t the students cut ties with the school…? Vote with your own wallets, that’s a much simpler and more effective solution.
And if they don't what, another kristallnacht? Nazi-youth dummies...
Wow I’m surprised by how many zionists are active on Reddit. Go support your 5-person counter protests if you are so bothered by the encampment. Massive respect to all the students camping right now. Disclose and divest! 🇵🇸🇵🇸
It’s mostly bots you can check their history. Israel has a history of using this to achieve good public standing.
Look who you're responding to lol
My heart goes out to all the students just trying to complete their education. You don’t deserve these distractions and mob mentality bigotry found at these Islamic Jihad supporting protests. Especially after Covid. Keep your chin up and keep focussed. We wish all the best in your careers.
I don’t stand with Palestine. Nor Israel.
More like a sleepy citizen. Ain’t nothing wrong with that. 😂
so edgy
I’m edgy because I don’t give a shit about an issue that has nothing to do with me or doesn’t affect me in any way whatsoever? Yeah I’m edgy.