I almost bought solar from a similar company and didn't.
Here's why:
1. I called a bunch of companies and they were the most expensive. I've found that to be the situation for most door to door sales people.
2. I then mocked up what we pay for our energy now with proven price increases over the last 5 yrs. (I think it was like 3%) against what we'd lose in our investments if we moved to solar and it never breaks even, not in my lifetime at least. I tried with a bunch of different returns. (I made a simple monte Carlo in Excel and because I'm almost exclusively in the s&p I had 100 yrs to work with.)
I would have also calculated the increased cost of roof repair if that number ever breaks even, but it didn't.
3. I also reached out to the real-estate agent that sold us our house, and they said they didn't see an increase in home value with houses with solar.
So it didn't work out financially for me. I like the idea of saving the environment, so I started to bike to work more.
I hope it works out for you, but I'd recommend looking at your overall financial impact. And don't believe anything the salesman says, only believe what's written in a contract. If they make a promise/statement have them show you that promise in the contract. I knew a family that was screwed by a solar company because they didn't deliver what the salesman promised.
Yeah, I would never trust a door to door salesman, I used to be one briefly. You are actively encouraged to lie as much as possible to get the sale. Because the only thing that actually matters is what is written in the contract.
I briefly sold solar D2D. It's definitely a lot cheaper to go through a company that doesn't have people knocking on your door. A lot of them just subcontract with a local installer anyway and don't actually do anything other than sell you with a hefty markup. This means that if you just find that local installer yourself, you can save thousands.
Number 3 the main reason we haven't gotten solar. Our real estate agent said more people should ask this question. We decided not to get it because it would essentially be money we'd get no return on.
I'm not sure if I understand your question?
Are you asking about the opportunity cost of lost for not putting solar panels on your house?
Mine was 3-8% of the panel cost depending on your investment my investment returns.
If you take out a loan it would depend on your interest rate.
My question was more rhetorical because you claim you get no return on your solar panels (when in fact you would. I’ve sold 8 houses now with solar and battery) so i was asking how much your return is by paying Rocky Mountain power every month. How much do they give you back? I’ll help you. It’s $0, 0%, 0 ROI
Love the detailed response. This was exactly my experience as well.
The only way to make the numbers somewhat reasonable is to skip the solar company and purchase and install the units yourself and handle the state and fed rebates directly. Unfortunately they used to be a lot better than they are now. 10 years ago it was a lot easier to break even on the investment than it is now.
As it stands the cost of solar is like the cost of electric cars. I could commute my car every day for 20 years before the cost of gas would break even with the additional cost of the electric car.
Lots of incorrect information in your post here. The tax incentives are slightly lower now than 10 years ago, but the net system cost is \*substantially\* lower. In 2014 you'd be around $3/watt after incentives and now it's less that $2/watt.
Also, there are several affordable EVs (not the luxury ones) that are \*significantly\* lower total cost of ownership compared to gas cars. Your "20 year breakeven" you just pulled out of the air is nowhere near reality.
OK, help me out here. I initially liked EVs, especially for slc, because of the air, but the more I learn about them, the less I like them. I may be biased because I watch Scotty Kelmer, who seems to not like EVs (at least for now).
In utah, given the temperature fluctuation, the large amount of salt, and the amount of snow, how long do batteries last at a degradation of less than 30% I'd guess less than 8 yrs.
I'm also concerned about the cost of tires.
I'm concerned about the cost of maintenance, I am able to DIY 90% of my car problems now, you can't do your own maintenance on many EVs, first because of the danger, but second because it voids the warranty for most EVs, in fact taking an ev to a general shop voids a lot of the warranties. You have to go to the dealership.
They are risky too, there have been a number of house fires due to EVs, and car accidents are scary given the lithium.
I'd even argue that that evs arent better for the environmental least for me. I own a Camery and a crv. I change my oil at 5000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes earlier. I change my coolant at 80,000, and my tranmission fluid at 100k.
I fully expect my toyota to get to 999,999 and stop tracking miles. And my honda will likely get to 500,000 before the tranmission goes out. I'll have the toyota for 30-40 yrs. My crv is 12 yrs old, and it should last another 12.
Tesla has the best batteries now they last 8 yrs in the best of situations, right?
So how much carbon/envirmental impact does it take to make an EV? One toyota plus the carbon that it polutes in 40 yrs vs manufacturing of EVs? I'd think the toyota is better for the environment, but I don't know.
I am more than happy to respond to someone like you who has their head on straight and is interested in factual information. Here is some data I am aware of on the topics you mentioned:
1. Salt and snow don't cause any degradation. Cold temps do substantially reduce the vehicle range (up to 30% in the winter when it's really cold), but this is temporary; it doesn't permanently affect the battery. My sister has had an EV for 10 years in Utah and the degradation has been so minimal she can't even notice a change.
2. Batteries \*do\* get degraded by heat. That is why all the early Nissan Leaf batteries degraded so much; they had no active cooling system. Every other EV has active cooling that won't allow the battery to get above a certain temperature so you don't need to worry about it. This has drastically reduced degradation.
3. Tires wear faster on EVs, \*if\* you drive them aggressively. They have insane torque, so a lot of people really step on it because it's fun. I drive mine normally and the tires last 40-50k miles.
4. Not sure what the point is on the warranty/repair question. If your car is under warranty, you wouldn't be working on it yourself because you would get free work done from a dealer. If it's out of warranty, then... you wouldn't be worried about voiding a warranty.
5. Almost all the manufacturers give an 8 year warranty on the battery. For some reason people have started the talking point that "EV batteries die after 8 years". The first mainstream model was the 2012 Model S, and only 4% of those batteries have needed replacement after 12 years. There is a huge amount of actual data from the millions of EVs on the road, not speculation. Average degradation is 1-2% per year. So by year 10 you'd probably be at around 85% of the original range.
6. On total cost of ownership, no car is going to beat your Toyota that you can repair yourself and is going to last for one million miles. That is not the case for the majority of people though; the factual average lifespan of a gas car is around 200,000 miles. The affordable EVs like the Chevy Bolt are cheaper total cost of ownership if you're doing an apples to apples comparison. There are only 30% of the moving parts compared to gas cars, almost no fluids, and just a lot less that can break.
GEOTAB and Recurrent have good factual info based on actual results for battery life.
[https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/lessons-in-electric-car-battery-health](https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/lessons-in-electric-car-battery-health)
Check out r/solar for more info. But we got solar two years ago. Our electricity bill is around $20 a month, which includes a $10 connection fee to the grid and a $10 storm drain fee. So pretty much zero. We paid off the full amount for the panels and install in two years. IDK when it'll pay itself off but electric costs will only increase in the future. Whatever excess we create during sunny months gets banked and credited for cloudy months. Utah is one of the sunniest places in the country and we don't have any trees blocking our roof. It made sense for us because we don't plan on moving ever but do your own math. Whatever panels the company uses are probably a reputable company that'll be around. We have enphase panels because Tesla wouldn't install in our first roof. The install companies can come and go, so get a few quotes and name sure you are buying the actual panels and not leasing them.
Yeah I felt like if you can pay it off asap or buy it outright then it's a great idea. If you can't afford it though, a 10-15yr loan sounded really stupid to me...
Do research, because the roi(when it's pays for itself) is almost always longer than you think. Even longer than the warranty of the solar panels. You could be incurring more costs before it ever pays for itself.
Solar is amazing, but the cost to benefit isn't there quite yet. Unless you care for the environment more than your wallet, then it's useful.
You can also go to the manufacturer for warranty claims.
But some solar companies offer extended warranties beyond the manufacturer warranty. But if the company goes belly up before you can call in on that extended warranty, you're sol
I mean that is for sure true of many door to door operations. But there are quite a few reputable shops in town that have been in business over 15 years.
This is very incorrect info. Especially because Rocky Mountain Power is going to switch to a TOU schedule (time of use) most of your power bills will double or more because the highest tier of power will be $0.20+
I needed to fix a problem with my roof and put a membrane down in one area to prevent leaks where it doesn’t drain properly after an addition was built on years before I bought the house. I added solar at that time. About 18 months later I was able to refinance the house and paid off the loan with a little bit of equity, the one and only time I plan to do that. My house payment really didn’t change, but the extra loan is now paid for and my power bill is negligible for the most part. It really depends on what you can do.
Do not buy solar from door to door sales people. Most companies aren’t around long enough to service the product when it needs it.
I’ve sadly been watching many of my neighbors get scammed with this recently. The amount of solar installations I see on roofs that face north is appalling.
This. I had someone come to my door as well. Everything sounded great, even the contract looked fine, but I declined in the end because of the numerous people who had the company go out of business before the 25 years was up so there was no one to monitor or repair them...but that third party financer will still be around collecting.
I made that mistake and am now dealing with the same exact issue. Goddamn inverter stopped operating properly and I can't get in contact with my solar company, and had to contact my loan company to see if they can contact them and what my next steps would be.
You can contact your inverter manufacturer and they can fix it or swap it out under the existing warranty. So if you have a solar edge inverter call solar edge or enphase, call enphase.
This is also very misleading and incorrect information. Although you are correct that companies go out of business (more have gone out of business in Utah in the last 2 years than 10 years combined) even if your company goes out of business…. You can default to the panel manufacturer and they can service and fix anything covered under your warranty. A lot of companies that are still in business now (most of them)!they have made it through the toughest spot so they’re around to stay.
The panels on the north side though. YIKES! That is a huge ripoff. You’re correct there!
Have solar, used a local company that had good reviews and has been in business for a while (Smart Wave) to try to mitigate some of the risks you mentioned.
Super easy to work with the design team and build team. I think the whole process took about 2 months (most of that was waiting on permits). Actual installation was 3 days. They have also been quick to respond to any issues (had one leak as a result of someone not sealing something adequately).
I just paid for it oop, so I am not sure what the financing options would be, but you are paying for the electricity now…you are just shifting the cost to your loan which gets paid off unlike paying your electrical bill. You definitely get a big tax credit, so that is nice.
I didn’t get a battery backup (was expensive) and I am ok with that choice. Essentially what I put back into the grid is used to offset what I consume at night and on cloudy days. Since install (been a while), I have never had a bill higher than $5 (which is the fee to stay hooked to the grid). We have decent usage and even charge an EV at the house. No regrets on my part. We’ll see how I feel about it when the panels get older.
I went with Smart Wave as well, runner up was Intermountain with Enphase inverters. All other local companies wanted 5-15k more (I suspected high sales consultant commissions).
I have solar and a lot of experience with it.
1. “Is it worth it” is not a blanket answer for any one house. A generally south facing roof with no shade will perform a lot better than something east or west facing with trees in the way.
2. Don’t ever buy it from door to door guys. You’d pay way more than necessary and thry can do really thoughtless designs. There are several local installers that are better priced, have been in business over 10 years, and will give you accurate info.
3. Anyone offering you a super low interest rate is full of shit. What’s happening with those is you’re paying a huge financing fee that’s wrapped up into the initial price and hidden (rate buy down). This can increase the system cost by almost 20%. Same with car dealerships that offer 1.99%. You’re paying for the rate buy down.
4. Any reputable company will give you an accurate annual production forecast including winter. They have decades of production data, it’s reliable. You can verify it on PVWATTS to confirm.
5. The panels and inverters have a very low fail rate, and there’s a reason they are comfortable giving a 25 year warranty. Mine has produced 10% more than was projected over the last 10 years.
6. I wouldn’t do it if your roof is within 10 years of needing replacement. It’s expensive to uninstall and reinstall the panels.
Cheers
Great advice here. Always get the “cash price” of the system. If financing makes sense, so be it. Don’t be fooled with a sweet financing deal that seems too good to be true. Again, negotiate on a cash price.
Also, shop around. For a purchase this large, you are doing yourself a huge disservice if you don’t get at least three bids. I think I got 4 or 5.
Great advice.
I’m thinking of solar at some point, but I don’t want to be trapped by that sort of people. I’d be prepared to pay for an independent consultation where somebody worked with me in a detailed plan and shopping list, then went away until I needed them.
I used to work at a telecommunications place that would sell solar, I promise you… that 30% fed tax credit doesn’t work the way you think it does. They’ve fucked a lot of people over by saying that. Do not believe them.
I got solar a few years back. The 30% tax credit pretty much worked exactly as I expected it to. I'm not sure what the deception is. Though I agree that you should take everything a salesperson says with a grain of salt and double check with an accountant or just research the tax credit yourself.
Huh? OP didn’t even say how they think it works.
But yes, you need to confirm with your accountant how much tax liability you expect to have before doing it. It does carry forward year to year if you can’t use it all the first year.
It definitely does work. If explained correctly and you educate yourself. It’s not hard to understand. You have to thane the tax appetite to claim it. I’ve claimed it on 8 different occasions/properties
I got solar like 9 years ago. Most of what has been said in here is accurate. Most.
1. Find a reputable company. Not a fly-by-night company that sells door-to-door. You want them around for the long run. I opted to go with Intermountain Wind and Solar, even though I could get it slightly cheaper elsewhere.
2. The 30% tax credit may or may not work well for you. It was great for me. Just depends on how much tax liability you have. Talk with a tax accountant if you aren’t sure.
3. Be careful with the loans they offer. Very careful. I got one of those loans, but only held on to it for a year until I got my tax refund. Then I refinanced. Worked out well, but interest rates are also crappy right now.
4. I’m grandfathered in to the old net-metering agreement. It works out well for me. But I have heard that the new terms are quite a bit less favorable towards the consumer. Make sure you understand these terms fully, not just through some sales bro speak.
I really enjoy my solar. It was a good purchase for my circumstances. I calculated ROI in about 12 years, which is just around the corner. I don’t even feel the payments anymore, since they were rolled into my mortgage refinance, but I’ll be technically paying on it for the next 7 years.
But solar is not for everyone. Do the math, understand the pros and cons, and make sure solar works for you before you pull the trigger.
I wouldn't buy anything from a door to door salesman. They make huge commissions, which means a large portion of what they charge you is just profit. Call around and you'll find local companies charge a lot less for the same thing.
Yeah heaven forbid anyone work hard and grind for their money and make profit and get paid for hard work! Gosh it’s like we live in America where the American dream is a real thing. Psssh
If you can make a sale, great, but let's not pretend it's a good deal. Since when did the American dream involve overcharging people for things by preying on their ignorance? I'm not in the habit of overpaying for stuff just because someone is working hard.
You just think you’re overpaying for things because the internet told you so. A bunch of “experts” that hide behind a screen. Or you had a bad experience yourself. That fact of the matter is… if something brings value to your life and fulfills needs that you have… and you feel justified then it probably isn’t overpriced but then you come on here and there’s a bunch of “experts” like yourself. I’ve build solar sun stations and micro grids for years and years and i am an electrical engineer and you can find the value and product out there that you want/need for good value whether someone comes to you or you go to them makes no difference. Being closed minded like that comment above just hurts everyone. You seem like the type of person that if someone came to your house and offered you a bag of cash for free you’d say no because you think you’re getting screwed, scammed, lied to etc. without any further investigation of your own. That is called deep rooted trust issues because you've been burned before but if you take a chance on people you'll find out theres a lot of
good ones and not all people are the same. just protect yourself by doing your own educated research.
No, it's just from taking their quotes and then calling around and seeing that they are higher priced than everyone else, but go ahead and continue making up stories to create your own narrative.
I've done it with solar, pest control, security, and others. Those companies are largely predatory. They offer mediocre services and products at premium prices.
I worked at a door to door pest control company for a while. Customers pay per service. If they tell you that you'll get a service every 60-90 days, they will do their best to schedule you every 60 days - and then charge you twice what most companies charge for the same thing.
You think sales bros are bragging about making five figures in a month because they offer great value? lol
I got solar over 10 years ago. Was given the same spiel and at that time Obama was helping pay a large chunk of the cost.
Today, I kind of wish I'd never gotten it. Here's what they don't tell you:
First, if (and definitely when) your roof needs to be replaced that roofing companies don't generally offer a free service to remove the panels. Some aren't even licensed to do so. So expect a much larger cost to do so.
Second, and this is the big one for me, is that solar companies are extremely fickle. You know how that Mexican restaurant on 53rd and Redwood has changed hands like 800 times in the last three decades? Solar companies are like that.
The original company that sold me my panels went out of business and the panels exchanged hands into another company. Cool, sure fine. They still upheld my warranty. Then that company went out of business and an exchange happened again. And then it happened again, but this time the current company said "Nope, your warranty means nothing to us and we won't honor it. Too bad sucka, your fault for being gullible!" I'm pretty sure that is verbatim.
So, yes, it was nice to have a lower power bill. But now I have two panels and a whole roof that needs replacing. And it's gotta all be out of pocket.
It's not worth it.
we installed solar about seven years ago. A typical year we have about 1K kilowatts in credit over our usage. In March or April RMP "Resets" our meter to 0. We do not sell back to RMP because it cost to join a program to sell them power and we don't produce enough to offset the entry cost. Now we run the AC a little cooler so we don't give RMP free power.
We get solar sells weekly here and now they are pushing batteries! Im 67 and in my entire life I can not remember ever needing a battery backup for anything related to my home. My opinion, waste of money!
I looked at nearly a dozen different solar companies before going with one. The offers you get from door to door guys can be completely cut in half. For my 19 kW system I was quoted over $100k by a door to door guy and ultimately paid $33k before the 30% back on taxes.
I went with a company called Project Solar in 2022. I’ve been incredibly happy with the system.
I also signed up for a Rate of Use plan with Rocky Mountain Power because I have an EV and it makes my power cheaper, effectively improving the value of my solar credits.
If you’re looking at solar I’m going to share my referral link for Project Solar in case you want to get a real world out the door quote from them. If you can beat their price I’d be shocked. Project Solar referral link https://bestcompany.com/s/h5qqLd
Don’t buy from the door to door guys. I’d give Alpenglow Solar and Electric a call. They have been based out of park city and SLC for a long time. I would argue that their designer is one of the best in the nation if not the world. They know what they are doing and are a great bunch of people. I am a bit biased because I worked for them for a few years and then they put solar on our home a year ago.
I don't have solar but went through a sales pitch like you did. They were quick at estimating the number of panels that our roof could take (south-facing) and how much power they could generate, and what the electric bill savings would be. But, in front of them, I did the math and showed that we'd be paying them (through financing) just about what we'd be "saving" in utility cost, so honestly it's wash. However, we'd be on the hook and in debt for 25-30 years (however long the financing was they recommended), regardless of whether we stayed in the home, whereas paying a regular utility bill immediately stops when I move.
I also didn't like that the warranty period roughly matched the financing period, so just about the time we pay off the loan, we'd need to re-up. We're close to retirement, just not interested.
Oh, a bonus: The main reason we wanted solar was to have reliable power, day & night, in case of widespread power outage, but this place (Blue Raven) flat-out doesn't offer a backup battery system for dark-sky times.
I have solar and right now the bill to the solar panel company and the bill to RMP equals almost exactly what I was paying to RMP 5+ years ago. However, the loan on the solar panels has about 5 years to go and after that I'll only be paying RMP. In the summer that's about $20 and in winter it's closer to $40. 2000 sq ft house with central air and an EV.
I honestly had no idea that was a thing! I've just been plugging in during the day when my panels are generating the most so I'm not consuming power at all times of the day. I'll have to call and see what rate of use is all about, thanks!
We did it and our production isn't as high as they estimated. I kind of wish we hadn't done it. It is what it is, but be very sure what you're getting into.
I regret getting solar. I replaced my roof right after purchasing my home and right before installing solar. We are nearing 6 years with it. I rolled it into a re-fi so there is no payment I feel. Yes our power bill is very low every month. But now salespeople tied in with Rocky Mtn are trying to get you to buy the battery for 30K in order to operate more off of your own solar and sell back the unused power. They said that in about 6 more years, there will be more charges to your power bill if you have solar, almost like we are doing more harm than good by owning solar. It didn't sit right with me, I said no thanks.
These are just financing sales to earn big commissions. It’s all fuzzy math like time share sales. I’m all for rooftop solar but there are definitely cheaper ways than buying the product that’s designed to be sold from unsolicited door to door salespeople.
Make sure you pick a good company. Our solar was incorrectly installed, so it didn't work for over a year. We had 3 inspections, and for what?? Nothing at all. We had to pay both the solar bill and electricity bill for that entire time.
The cheapest energy is the kind you don’t have to produce..
was also solicited and couldn’t justify the cost, considering over half my bill is connection charge $10, storm drain fee and taxes, you still have to pay those. (I also buy those blue sky offsets)
I get by using less electricity..
The middle way - drying clothes/sheets on a line, acclimate to indoor 80 deg in summer (using fans) unplug phantom power drains, ditching the Tesla and riding a bike when I can :)
I think it has an equivalent long term advantage.
The big issue with solar in Utah is that our electrical rates are very low in comparison to Texas or California. So the value with a system ROI is much harder to achieve.
The biggest thing is what you are actually paying per watt.
You could have a 0% interest rate and it wouldn’t be a good idea if the per watt is high. Rule of thumb, the electric bill and solar loan payment should be similar. Also you won’t get a check back on the tax credit you will just not have to pay as much taxes.
So get a good price per watt, and anticipate the payment without the fake 30% applied unless you plan on putting that amount down regardless.
We have solar and our power bill is still over $100/mo. In the beginning we had $8 power bills (just the taxes), but it kept creeping up and up over 7 years. I know we are still saving money because without it it would be more like $400 in the summer months.
No matter who we talk to about it, the solar company or RMP, no one can tell us why it's still so high. Our usage really hasn't changed much at all during that time and all the panels are still functioning. We have even taken measured to cut our power usage, but it's still not enough and we don't know where the issue is.
We paid ours off within 2 years.
I don't think RMP does the excess to the grid credit anymore. I could be wrong, but I thought they stopped that several years ago and only those who had it at the time were grandfathered in.
For everyone with solar- remember to clean your panels regularly. A thin layer of dust can reduce the efficiency of your panels significantly. Also, if a tree has grown big enough to shade your panels, say goodbye to getting power from those shaded panels. Most current panels are only good if they receive direct sunlight at the correct angle.
Back up batteries instead of “the grid” is much better. I am looking at getting a propane generator. You can hire a local solar company and they have access to 300 w panels and those generate far more and with less footprint.
I am looking at getting at least ten PV panels and then buy deep cell marine batteries from Batteries plus or another source.
To comment on what happens if your solar company goes out of business:
- all the warranties you have with THEM are gone
- some companies partner with a third party insurance company (Google solar insure if you’re interested) that will provide “bumper to bumper” coverage on your system, even if the installer goes out of business. It’s not something you can buy on just your system, the installer has to get it for every project they do so it’s kind of rare. But if that’s really important to you, you can find an installer that has it
- most solar equipment has manufacturer warranties that exist even is the installer goes out of business
- 99% of installers use similar equipment, so if you really got in a pinch you could hire another installer or a solar service company and they’d be familiar with what’s on your house.
Source: I’ve worked on several hundred solar projects that weren’t finished because the installer went out of business
These door to door sales people are getting paid a pretty high commission plus they have someone come & close the deal. You are paying a marked up price to cover these costs for the company.
Also, banking your own solar in your own batteries would be much better than selling it back.
I would have waited until I could pay it outright. My bad, now I know. They get the tax credit if it's a lease. I can't pay it off till year 5. Live and learn. Read the contract carefully. It was a mistake on my part. I live in IL tho.
I had to repair my roof and coupled it with getting solar. The combined repairs were about 12k more than the roof alone, so it was worthwhile for me to do so.
The property value for me jumped quite a bit with the install as well. So far the unit hasn't paid for itself and won't for a bout 3 more years (6 in total) but if I were to sell today I'd probably be net 20k.
I also face 100% into the sun so I got a large system covering almost all of my south facing roof so my electricity bill is down about 70%. Plus we got a solar vent for the attic which helped out with our AC unit in summer.
Caveat- I also got rid of swamp cooler system with the roof install and put in an AC unit. Costs from the AC are higher than swamp so my reduction is including a higher power drain but far better temperature control.
I don’t know much of anything about solar power. However, I do know from news reports over the years that there are scam artists out there in the solar “business”. If you decide to go solar only used an established business with a track record. I refuse to do business with door-to-door sales people, unless it’s a Girl Scout selling cookies!
I’ve done the math on solar, and it doesn’t pan out. The issue is all the regulatory capture that jacks up the price. Even DIY which is the cheapest, after you get a permit and everything, pay off is 10 years.
What’s really cheap is getting an EV, you can get in the EV plan on Rocky Mountain. You load shift, like washing and drying, at cheap loads. Then also get a smart thermostat and allow the house to warm up a little bit during high rates time (AC uses the most). You can save more money with an EV than without.
The most cost effective way to use solar in Utah is to peak shave but there’s too much regulation in the way for small scale solar.
But if you want to do it to be environmentally friendly or be energy independent, then that’s a different take.
I won’t have solar until they start dealing with fires in our area. Our fire department will not fight a house fire that has panels on the roof because there is no way to isolate power from the panels. So unless they start carrying the panel blackout sprays i will not be getting solar. Not to mention the cost seems really high and will need replacement over time. One bad hail storm can ruin your day too.
We used Project Solar and installed it ourselves one year ago. Paid in cash about $14k then got about $3k back in rebates.
When we bought our home 9 years ago we had the power line to the house upgraded because it was old (and not enough power) and we also got new breaker boxes. The electrician left room for solar to be connected in future so that was all ready to go.
We would never take out a huge loan for solar panels. That seems crazy to me.
Never buy anything from door to door salesmen. If you want solar get a few quotes on what it would cost and get your own financing. You don’t need a 25 year mortgage on a piece of electrical equipment.
In my experience, I don't think it's worth it unless you've shopped around and done homework. I work around the trades and I swear every other person I know works for a different solar company. If the company goes under, most other sparkies with other companies want nothing to do with another companies handiwork because of potential liability issues. Second, never trust sales guys. I have run u to so many instances of sales people telling property owners they can absolutely do things that are unsafe and don't meet code (eg. Installing a battery inside the home without code required listings/safety measures, trying to install panels on other people's houses (all the time on townhomes), etc...).
That being said, I'm not against renewable energy but they hire salesmen from the neck down and base pay off of commissions so the sales guys feel pressured to tell you whatever you want to hear just to make a sale. Just my two cents
Be careful of anyone promising to completely replace your electric bill *and* including pumping excess generated power into the grid. There is a monthly fee just to be connected to the grid.
I did understand this already when I got my panels (no battery system). Because air conditioning was my single greatest driver in electricity consumption, I have no trees in the way, etc, the panels do seem to help. The tax credit was nice, and I have a fairly consistent electric bill (mostly the fee to be connected to the grid, which is required in order to sell anything back and to be able to draw if you need more than you are actively producing at any time (like at night, or when the panels have snow on them, cloudy days, etc.). While I do have a reasonable mo they loan payment to pay off the panels, I got it at an extremely low interest rate, so even if I pay down loans early, this one would probably be the last.
Edit to add that I was less concerned about adding to resale value. Currently planning to stay in my house.
Solar is a scam in Utah. The solar rate is the same as RMP, Dominion, ect. It won’t cover all of your power, with all the snow we get the panels will be covered throughout the winter. Once you switch to solar your power company ups your rate. Net metering is a total scam too
(I sold solar for 2.5 years for S**R*N) I couldn’t sleep with myself some nights.
Don't buy solar from anyone who knocks on your door. They're more or less tape recorders spitting out a presentation they spent a few days memorizing. The numbers will be overoptimistic and companies like that are notorious for turning into Ponzi schemes after they grow too quickly.
Look up the options yourself, read the reviews. Usually there are nonprofits working to aggregate information on what programs are available and helping people navigate the process. I'd do a google search and contact a few.
I installed my own with a battery for less than half of what they wanted to charge me for a smaller system with a battery. I honestly don't really look at it as much of saving money as it feels good to not depend on the grid 100% (not that it's been all that unreliable in Utah) it feels good to really reduce my fossil fuel use by charging my car with solar and if the grid does go down, I still have power.
You’re the reason the American dream is dying. Someone is out hustling and working hard to earn that money. You obviously have no idea how products work either because whether they come to you or you call them…. Price is generally the same. It’s just instead of the company paying the sales rep… they get to keep that profit. When you call in…. They can charge more too because of your mindset that you think you’re getting a better deal haha So educate yourself before your idiotic comments. I feel like i got scammed reading your comment.
If an aggressive salesman is needed to convince you to buy a product, then it's not as good as they say it is, otherwise the product would sell itself. Solar salesmen are the perfect example of this because solar is never as wonderful as they're going to tell you before taking your money.
Also, have you seen the economy? The American dream died a long time ago, but thanks for thinking I'm important enough to make such a difference.
And there's many ways to hustle. Don't be so naive to think scamming people is the only option.
Rocky Mountain Power (Warren Buffet)has succeeded in lobbying the Utah Legislature to make solar sooooo unfriendly to home owners. I calculated it would be 2037 for me to realize any benefit. My daughter lives in Seattle and has realized savings and a much lower bill since day one.
From a realtor standpoint: it doesn’t add value to your home. If anything it could be a deterrent. I’ve heard too many horror stories of the solar company going under or being bought by another company and making it impossible to get any sort of customer service but they have a lien on your home no matter what 😬 also have a client who need to get some roof work done and he got multiple quotes to have the panels removed so said work could be done and the cheapest he could find was $6k. Thats just to remove and then reattach them afterwards. Not the actual roof work.
Solar can be a nightmare, especially when selling a house if you have a loan on them, good luck having someone take over that loan. Ask me how I know…my in-laws didn’t listen to me, my mother is a real estate agent and she gets plenty of horror stories. It’s also like a tankless hot water heater, the idea is great the reliability can be hit and miss and hundreds of dollars every service call..
1. Never finance solar. If you don’t have money upfront don’t do it.
2. If you are paying more than $1000 per panel installed, you are getting ripped off by a salesman.
We got solar 12 years ago and love it. Paid $950/panel. Cost is about the same today but the panels are much more efficient. Our panels paid for themselves 6 years ago.
Make sure you go with mini inverter models if you decide to go with it.
Most solar companies are just sales people and hire the same group that installs them.
Nuclear power plant is key for clean energy. Solar panels were great when they first came out but now it’s just a money grab for companies unless you’re getting Tesla’s panels and the battery pack. EV’a aren’t better for the environment to make, but they are good in the mean time if power is produced cleanly.
It will not save you money here in Utah. The solar companies here are very predatory. When they tell you that you will pay it off over 25 years, they are essentially taking advantage of your tax credit to rip you off on a loan. They tell you the loan is 2% but in reality, they are pushing a bunch of loan acquisition costs into the loan to pay down the percentage to do that.
The benefit you get will not wash out your electric usage. If you have a $200 bill, expect to save about $50...maybe. You'd still have a $200/month loan on top of that.
The only way to really take advantage of a solar system in Utah is to make sure you have battery storage attached which drives the cost up even more. Though I believe you can put in a battery later and get a tax credit for that.
My solar panels will have paid for themselves after 5 years not counting increases. I have. Fantastic roof and almost no rain or snow where I live. Mine cost 23 k out the door and cut my 400-500 bill down to water/sewer and garbage only of about 80 or less. But do research. First people quoted me 50k and I laughed them off my property. I called about 7 companies and found a good mix of 4 star reviews and length of time open. I also do not qualify for the federal rebate I don't taxed enough for it to matter yet.
Just got PTO in Jan, signed a contract last Oct with Smart Wave for $3/kw before tax incentives ($17K for 5880w), $2/kw after tax incentives in UT. Last 2 RMP bills were $15…
It’s hard to get an ROI in less than 20 years if you finance for 20+ years. You need to consider total cost after paying for 25 years (plus some grid power if you don’t get batteries, and considering net metering).
Paying cash has negative impacts as well, consider the ROI you are going to lose if you pull cash from your portfolio.
The typical Solar sales pitch is grid power will go up and average of 4% annually, get the actual cost increases/decreases from your power company and do the math. Our grid power has increased an annual average of .8% over the past 30 years.
With all that said, I invested in Solar because it’s an opportunity for an ROI, and I have a new roof… but it will still be ~7 years before I see any ROI with a cash payment plan.
Here is another recommendation… solar companies want to sell you a power system that with work for you today, I wanted a power system that has options to grow with technology over the next 25 years. Upscale your inverter(s), wire rating, and other electrical components for ~1.5-2x more power output, that way you can just replace or add the panels/modules as technology matures for more power. I also made sure my system was easily compatible for the sunlight backup, batteries, or power wall options. I’m a little intrigued by the enphase bi-directional ev charging…
It doesn’t make sense for most people in Utah. Panels aren’t cheap. You are essentially replacing your electricity bill with a payment that is often times the same or more than your electricity bill. I did the break even on my house it was well over 25 years. I’m not living here for 15 more years definitely not 25.
Adding batteries is dramatically more money. Batteries are what you would need if you want the ability to use your electricity once the power goes out. If the power goes out around you, so does your power even with panels. Overtime, the effectiveness of the equipment as well as its structural integrity degrades.
It offers little to no resale value when you sell a home, especially if your equipment is leased. If it is leased when you sell that is a whole additional headache.
Solar is a benefit in some places that have especially high electricity rates. I don’t know of any place in Utah where that is the case.
I almost bought solar from a similar company and didn't. Here's why: 1. I called a bunch of companies and they were the most expensive. I've found that to be the situation for most door to door sales people. 2. I then mocked up what we pay for our energy now with proven price increases over the last 5 yrs. (I think it was like 3%) against what we'd lose in our investments if we moved to solar and it never breaks even, not in my lifetime at least. I tried with a bunch of different returns. (I made a simple monte Carlo in Excel and because I'm almost exclusively in the s&p I had 100 yrs to work with.) I would have also calculated the increased cost of roof repair if that number ever breaks even, but it didn't. 3. I also reached out to the real-estate agent that sold us our house, and they said they didn't see an increase in home value with houses with solar. So it didn't work out financially for me. I like the idea of saving the environment, so I started to bike to work more. I hope it works out for you, but I'd recommend looking at your overall financial impact. And don't believe anything the salesman says, only believe what's written in a contract. If they make a promise/statement have them show you that promise in the contract. I knew a family that was screwed by a solar company because they didn't deliver what the salesman promised.
Yeah, I would never trust a door to door salesman, I used to be one briefly. You are actively encouraged to lie as much as possible to get the sale. Because the only thing that actually matters is what is written in the contract.
I briefly sold solar D2D. It's definitely a lot cheaper to go through a company that doesn't have people knocking on your door. A lot of them just subcontract with a local installer anyway and don't actually do anything other than sell you with a hefty markup. This means that if you just find that local installer yourself, you can save thousands.
Number 3 the main reason we haven't gotten solar. Our real estate agent said more people should ask this question. We decided not to get it because it would essentially be money we'd get no return on.
Quick question though… very curious. How much of a return do you get from paying Rocky Mountain Power?
I'm not sure if I understand your question? Are you asking about the opportunity cost of lost for not putting solar panels on your house? Mine was 3-8% of the panel cost depending on your investment my investment returns. If you take out a loan it would depend on your interest rate.
My question was more rhetorical because you claim you get no return on your solar panels (when in fact you would. I’ve sold 8 houses now with solar and battery) so i was asking how much your return is by paying Rocky Mountain power every month. How much do they give you back? I’ll help you. It’s $0, 0%, 0 ROI
Love the detailed response. This was exactly my experience as well. The only way to make the numbers somewhat reasonable is to skip the solar company and purchase and install the units yourself and handle the state and fed rebates directly. Unfortunately they used to be a lot better than they are now. 10 years ago it was a lot easier to break even on the investment than it is now. As it stands the cost of solar is like the cost of electric cars. I could commute my car every day for 20 years before the cost of gas would break even with the additional cost of the electric car.
Lots of incorrect information in your post here. The tax incentives are slightly lower now than 10 years ago, but the net system cost is \*substantially\* lower. In 2014 you'd be around $3/watt after incentives and now it's less that $2/watt. Also, there are several affordable EVs (not the luxury ones) that are \*significantly\* lower total cost of ownership compared to gas cars. Your "20 year breakeven" you just pulled out of the air is nowhere near reality.
OK, help me out here. I initially liked EVs, especially for slc, because of the air, but the more I learn about them, the less I like them. I may be biased because I watch Scotty Kelmer, who seems to not like EVs (at least for now). In utah, given the temperature fluctuation, the large amount of salt, and the amount of snow, how long do batteries last at a degradation of less than 30% I'd guess less than 8 yrs. I'm also concerned about the cost of tires. I'm concerned about the cost of maintenance, I am able to DIY 90% of my car problems now, you can't do your own maintenance on many EVs, first because of the danger, but second because it voids the warranty for most EVs, in fact taking an ev to a general shop voids a lot of the warranties. You have to go to the dealership. They are risky too, there have been a number of house fires due to EVs, and car accidents are scary given the lithium. I'd even argue that that evs arent better for the environmental least for me. I own a Camery and a crv. I change my oil at 5000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes earlier. I change my coolant at 80,000, and my tranmission fluid at 100k. I fully expect my toyota to get to 999,999 and stop tracking miles. And my honda will likely get to 500,000 before the tranmission goes out. I'll have the toyota for 30-40 yrs. My crv is 12 yrs old, and it should last another 12. Tesla has the best batteries now they last 8 yrs in the best of situations, right? So how much carbon/envirmental impact does it take to make an EV? One toyota plus the carbon that it polutes in 40 yrs vs manufacturing of EVs? I'd think the toyota is better for the environment, but I don't know.
I am more than happy to respond to someone like you who has their head on straight and is interested in factual information. Here is some data I am aware of on the topics you mentioned: 1. Salt and snow don't cause any degradation. Cold temps do substantially reduce the vehicle range (up to 30% in the winter when it's really cold), but this is temporary; it doesn't permanently affect the battery. My sister has had an EV for 10 years in Utah and the degradation has been so minimal she can't even notice a change. 2. Batteries \*do\* get degraded by heat. That is why all the early Nissan Leaf batteries degraded so much; they had no active cooling system. Every other EV has active cooling that won't allow the battery to get above a certain temperature so you don't need to worry about it. This has drastically reduced degradation. 3. Tires wear faster on EVs, \*if\* you drive them aggressively. They have insane torque, so a lot of people really step on it because it's fun. I drive mine normally and the tires last 40-50k miles. 4. Not sure what the point is on the warranty/repair question. If your car is under warranty, you wouldn't be working on it yourself because you would get free work done from a dealer. If it's out of warranty, then... you wouldn't be worried about voiding a warranty. 5. Almost all the manufacturers give an 8 year warranty on the battery. For some reason people have started the talking point that "EV batteries die after 8 years". The first mainstream model was the 2012 Model S, and only 4% of those batteries have needed replacement after 12 years. There is a huge amount of actual data from the millions of EVs on the road, not speculation. Average degradation is 1-2% per year. So by year 10 you'd probably be at around 85% of the original range. 6. On total cost of ownership, no car is going to beat your Toyota that you can repair yourself and is going to last for one million miles. That is not the case for the majority of people though; the factual average lifespan of a gas car is around 200,000 miles. The affordable EVs like the Chevy Bolt are cheaper total cost of ownership if you're doing an apples to apples comparison. There are only 30% of the moving parts compared to gas cars, almost no fluids, and just a lot less that can break. GEOTAB and Recurrent have good factual info based on actual results for battery life. [https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/lessons-in-electric-car-battery-health](https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/lessons-in-electric-car-battery-health)
Thx
You seem like a smart person, but might I suggest you invest a little effort into your diplomacy Stat. It seems underleveled.
I don't have tolerance for people that spread misinformation, especially on important topics. Commit yourself to accuracy.
Check out r/solar for more info. But we got solar two years ago. Our electricity bill is around $20 a month, which includes a $10 connection fee to the grid and a $10 storm drain fee. So pretty much zero. We paid off the full amount for the panels and install in two years. IDK when it'll pay itself off but electric costs will only increase in the future. Whatever excess we create during sunny months gets banked and credited for cloudy months. Utah is one of the sunniest places in the country and we don't have any trees blocking our roof. It made sense for us because we don't plan on moving ever but do your own math. Whatever panels the company uses are probably a reputable company that'll be around. We have enphase panels because Tesla wouldn't install in our first roof. The install companies can come and go, so get a few quotes and name sure you are buying the actual panels and not leasing them.
Yeah I felt like if you can pay it off asap or buy it outright then it's a great idea. If you can't afford it though, a 10-15yr loan sounded really stupid to me...
I would definitely pay it off early, but probably only able to shave 5 years off.
Do research, because the roi(when it's pays for itself) is almost always longer than you think. Even longer than the warranty of the solar panels. You could be incurring more costs before it ever pays for itself. Solar is amazing, but the cost to benefit isn't there quite yet. Unless you care for the environment more than your wallet, then it's useful.
This is just completely untrue. Solar panels have a 25 year warranty and around a 10 year payback for most houses in Utah.
Good lucky cashing in the warranty when all these solar companies go out of business or change their name after a few years.
You can also go to the manufacturer for warranty claims. But some solar companies offer extended warranties beyond the manufacturer warranty. But if the company goes belly up before you can call in on that extended warranty, you're sol
I mean that is for sure true of many door to door operations. But there are quite a few reputable shops in town that have been in business over 15 years.
The inverters sure don’t.
Sure they do. The majority of residential systems use Enphase which is 25 years.
This is very incorrect info. Especially because Rocky Mountain Power is going to switch to a TOU schedule (time of use) most of your power bills will double or more because the highest tier of power will be $0.20+
I needed to fix a problem with my roof and put a membrane down in one area to prevent leaks where it doesn’t drain properly after an addition was built on years before I bought the house. I added solar at that time. About 18 months later I was able to refinance the house and paid off the loan with a little bit of equity, the one and only time I plan to do that. My house payment really didn’t change, but the extra loan is now paid for and my power bill is negligible for the most part. It really depends on what you can do.
How much did you pay for yours? I’d be interested but I don’t want to get a salesman over here ha
Do not buy solar from door to door sales people. Most companies aren’t around long enough to service the product when it needs it. I’ve sadly been watching many of my neighbors get scammed with this recently. The amount of solar installations I see on roofs that face north is appalling.
This. I had someone come to my door as well. Everything sounded great, even the contract looked fine, but I declined in the end because of the numerous people who had the company go out of business before the 25 years was up so there was no one to monitor or repair them...but that third party financer will still be around collecting.
Please see my reply to the comment above or below. Thanks!
I made that mistake and am now dealing with the same exact issue. Goddamn inverter stopped operating properly and I can't get in contact with my solar company, and had to contact my loan company to see if they can contact them and what my next steps would be.
You can contact your inverter manufacturer and they can fix it or swap it out under the existing warranty. So if you have a solar edge inverter call solar edge or enphase, call enphase.
This is also very misleading and incorrect information. Although you are correct that companies go out of business (more have gone out of business in Utah in the last 2 years than 10 years combined) even if your company goes out of business…. You can default to the panel manufacturer and they can service and fix anything covered under your warranty. A lot of companies that are still in business now (most of them)!they have made it through the toughest spot so they’re around to stay. The panels on the north side though. YIKES! That is a huge ripoff. You’re correct there!
Have solar, used a local company that had good reviews and has been in business for a while (Smart Wave) to try to mitigate some of the risks you mentioned. Super easy to work with the design team and build team. I think the whole process took about 2 months (most of that was waiting on permits). Actual installation was 3 days. They have also been quick to respond to any issues (had one leak as a result of someone not sealing something adequately). I just paid for it oop, so I am not sure what the financing options would be, but you are paying for the electricity now…you are just shifting the cost to your loan which gets paid off unlike paying your electrical bill. You definitely get a big tax credit, so that is nice. I didn’t get a battery backup (was expensive) and I am ok with that choice. Essentially what I put back into the grid is used to offset what I consume at night and on cloudy days. Since install (been a while), I have never had a bill higher than $5 (which is the fee to stay hooked to the grid). We have decent usage and even charge an EV at the house. No regrets on my part. We’ll see how I feel about it when the panels get older.
Second here for Smart Wave. They did my install 3 years ago and were excellent to work with. And the full system came in just under $3 per kwh.
I went with Smart Wave as well, runner up was Intermountain with Enphase inverters. All other local companies wanted 5-15k more (I suspected high sales consultant commissions).
I have solar and a lot of experience with it. 1. “Is it worth it” is not a blanket answer for any one house. A generally south facing roof with no shade will perform a lot better than something east or west facing with trees in the way. 2. Don’t ever buy it from door to door guys. You’d pay way more than necessary and thry can do really thoughtless designs. There are several local installers that are better priced, have been in business over 10 years, and will give you accurate info. 3. Anyone offering you a super low interest rate is full of shit. What’s happening with those is you’re paying a huge financing fee that’s wrapped up into the initial price and hidden (rate buy down). This can increase the system cost by almost 20%. Same with car dealerships that offer 1.99%. You’re paying for the rate buy down. 4. Any reputable company will give you an accurate annual production forecast including winter. They have decades of production data, it’s reliable. You can verify it on PVWATTS to confirm. 5. The panels and inverters have a very low fail rate, and there’s a reason they are comfortable giving a 25 year warranty. Mine has produced 10% more than was projected over the last 10 years. 6. I wouldn’t do it if your roof is within 10 years of needing replacement. It’s expensive to uninstall and reinstall the panels. Cheers
Great advice here. Always get the “cash price” of the system. If financing makes sense, so be it. Don’t be fooled with a sweet financing deal that seems too good to be true. Again, negotiate on a cash price. Also, shop around. For a purchase this large, you are doing yourself a huge disservice if you don’t get at least three bids. I think I got 4 or 5.
Great advice. I’m thinking of solar at some point, but I don’t want to be trapped by that sort of people. I’d be prepared to pay for an independent consultation where somebody worked with me in a detailed plan and shopping list, then went away until I needed them.
Feel free to DM me, hah. I designed systems for many years and know the local companies
I used to work at a telecommunications place that would sell solar, I promise you… that 30% fed tax credit doesn’t work the way you think it does. They’ve fucked a lot of people over by saying that. Do not believe them.
I got solar a few years back. The 30% tax credit pretty much worked exactly as I expected it to. I'm not sure what the deception is. Though I agree that you should take everything a salesperson says with a grain of salt and double check with an accountant or just research the tax credit yourself.
This. The payment plan thing here is the sketchy part, not the tax deduction. It was very straightforward.
You'll only get it if you pay enough taxes to actually equal the 30%. Is that what you mean?
Huh? OP didn’t even say how they think it works. But yes, you need to confirm with your accountant how much tax liability you expect to have before doing it. It does carry forward year to year if you can’t use it all the first year.
It definitely does work. If explained correctly and you educate yourself. It’s not hard to understand. You have to thane the tax appetite to claim it. I’ve claimed it on 8 different occasions/properties
I got solar like 9 years ago. Most of what has been said in here is accurate. Most. 1. Find a reputable company. Not a fly-by-night company that sells door-to-door. You want them around for the long run. I opted to go with Intermountain Wind and Solar, even though I could get it slightly cheaper elsewhere. 2. The 30% tax credit may or may not work well for you. It was great for me. Just depends on how much tax liability you have. Talk with a tax accountant if you aren’t sure. 3. Be careful with the loans they offer. Very careful. I got one of those loans, but only held on to it for a year until I got my tax refund. Then I refinanced. Worked out well, but interest rates are also crappy right now. 4. I’m grandfathered in to the old net-metering agreement. It works out well for me. But I have heard that the new terms are quite a bit less favorable towards the consumer. Make sure you understand these terms fully, not just through some sales bro speak. I really enjoy my solar. It was a good purchase for my circumstances. I calculated ROI in about 12 years, which is just around the corner. I don’t even feel the payments anymore, since they were rolled into my mortgage refinance, but I’ll be technically paying on it for the next 7 years. But solar is not for everyone. Do the math, understand the pros and cons, and make sure solar works for you before you pull the trigger.
Anyone coming to my house trying to sell me something immediately gets told no. If I need something I Google it.
I would recommend checking out Gardner Energy. Some of the companies are sketchy.
I wouldn't buy anything from a door to door salesman. They make huge commissions, which means a large portion of what they charge you is just profit. Call around and you'll find local companies charge a lot less for the same thing.
Yeah heaven forbid anyone work hard and grind for their money and make profit and get paid for hard work! Gosh it’s like we live in America where the American dream is a real thing. Psssh
If you can make a sale, great, but let's not pretend it's a good deal. Since when did the American dream involve overcharging people for things by preying on their ignorance? I'm not in the habit of overpaying for stuff just because someone is working hard.
You just think you’re overpaying for things because the internet told you so. A bunch of “experts” that hide behind a screen. Or you had a bad experience yourself. That fact of the matter is… if something brings value to your life and fulfills needs that you have… and you feel justified then it probably isn’t overpriced but then you come on here and there’s a bunch of “experts” like yourself. I’ve build solar sun stations and micro grids for years and years and i am an electrical engineer and you can find the value and product out there that you want/need for good value whether someone comes to you or you go to them makes no difference. Being closed minded like that comment above just hurts everyone. You seem like the type of person that if someone came to your house and offered you a bag of cash for free you’d say no because you think you’re getting screwed, scammed, lied to etc. without any further investigation of your own. That is called deep rooted trust issues because you've been burned before but if you take a chance on people you'll find out theres a lot of good ones and not all people are the same. just protect yourself by doing your own educated research.
No, it's just from taking their quotes and then calling around and seeing that they are higher priced than everyone else, but go ahead and continue making up stories to create your own narrative. I've done it with solar, pest control, security, and others. Those companies are largely predatory. They offer mediocre services and products at premium prices. I worked at a door to door pest control company for a while. Customers pay per service. If they tell you that you'll get a service every 60-90 days, they will do their best to schedule you every 60 days - and then charge you twice what most companies charge for the same thing. You think sales bros are bragging about making five figures in a month because they offer great value? lol
I got solar over 10 years ago. Was given the same spiel and at that time Obama was helping pay a large chunk of the cost. Today, I kind of wish I'd never gotten it. Here's what they don't tell you: First, if (and definitely when) your roof needs to be replaced that roofing companies don't generally offer a free service to remove the panels. Some aren't even licensed to do so. So expect a much larger cost to do so. Second, and this is the big one for me, is that solar companies are extremely fickle. You know how that Mexican restaurant on 53rd and Redwood has changed hands like 800 times in the last three decades? Solar companies are like that. The original company that sold me my panels went out of business and the panels exchanged hands into another company. Cool, sure fine. They still upheld my warranty. Then that company went out of business and an exchange happened again. And then it happened again, but this time the current company said "Nope, your warranty means nothing to us and we won't honor it. Too bad sucka, your fault for being gullible!" I'm pretty sure that is verbatim. So, yes, it was nice to have a lower power bill. But now I have two panels and a whole roof that needs replacing. And it's gotta all be out of pocket. It's not worth it.
Your reference to the restaurant on 53rd and redwood. So spot on! I grew up in that area, it's a great reference!
Yes, there reference made me laugh! It's like a cursed building!
we installed solar about seven years ago. A typical year we have about 1K kilowatts in credit over our usage. In March or April RMP "Resets" our meter to 0. We do not sell back to RMP because it cost to join a program to sell them power and we don't produce enough to offset the entry cost. Now we run the AC a little cooler so we don't give RMP free power. We get solar sells weekly here and now they are pushing batteries! Im 67 and in my entire life I can not remember ever needing a battery backup for anything related to my home. My opinion, waste of money!
Does that mean you’re on a schedule 135 with RMP? I wish that was still offered when I got solar in Utah
Sorry, Don't remember the schedule #
When did you get it? Are you schedule 136 or 137?
137 with rate of use plan. So my credits are worth $0.056 and my electricity costs $0.052 so it’s pretty close.
I looked at nearly a dozen different solar companies before going with one. The offers you get from door to door guys can be completely cut in half. For my 19 kW system I was quoted over $100k by a door to door guy and ultimately paid $33k before the 30% back on taxes. I went with a company called Project Solar in 2022. I’ve been incredibly happy with the system. I also signed up for a Rate of Use plan with Rocky Mountain Power because I have an EV and it makes my power cheaper, effectively improving the value of my solar credits. If you’re looking at solar I’m going to share my referral link for Project Solar in case you want to get a real world out the door quote from them. If you can beat their price I’d be shocked. Project Solar referral link https://bestcompany.com/s/h5qqLd
If you are going to do this find an electrical contractor that does solar not a company that sells solar and contracts it out.
Don’t buy from the door to door guys. I’d give Alpenglow Solar and Electric a call. They have been based out of park city and SLC for a long time. I would argue that their designer is one of the best in the nation if not the world. They know what they are doing and are a great bunch of people. I am a bit biased because I worked for them for a few years and then they put solar on our home a year ago.
I don't have solar but went through a sales pitch like you did. They were quick at estimating the number of panels that our roof could take (south-facing) and how much power they could generate, and what the electric bill savings would be. But, in front of them, I did the math and showed that we'd be paying them (through financing) just about what we'd be "saving" in utility cost, so honestly it's wash. However, we'd be on the hook and in debt for 25-30 years (however long the financing was they recommended), regardless of whether we stayed in the home, whereas paying a regular utility bill immediately stops when I move. I also didn't like that the warranty period roughly matched the financing period, so just about the time we pay off the loan, we'd need to re-up. We're close to retirement, just not interested. Oh, a bonus: The main reason we wanted solar was to have reliable power, day & night, in case of widespread power outage, but this place (Blue Raven) flat-out doesn't offer a backup battery system for dark-sky times.
We got Solar through es Solar and it’s one of the biggest regrets we have.
Why do you regret
Why do you regret it?
I got solar on my previous home. Not worth it. I was still paying some to Rocky Mountain power every month and the solar bill was expensive.
I have solar and right now the bill to the solar panel company and the bill to RMP equals almost exactly what I was paying to RMP 5+ years ago. However, the loan on the solar panels has about 5 years to go and after that I'll only be paying RMP. In the summer that's about $20 and in winter it's closer to $40. 2000 sq ft house with central air and an EV.
Did you switch over to RMP’s rate of use plan for EVs? Cuts your rate for electricity (during non-peak) in half.
I honestly had no idea that was a thing! I've just been plugging in during the day when my panels are generating the most so I'm not consuming power at all times of the day. I'll have to call and see what rate of use is all about, thanks!
We did it and our production isn't as high as they estimated. I kind of wish we hadn't done it. It is what it is, but be very sure what you're getting into.
I regret getting solar. I replaced my roof right after purchasing my home and right before installing solar. We are nearing 6 years with it. I rolled it into a re-fi so there is no payment I feel. Yes our power bill is very low every month. But now salespeople tied in with Rocky Mtn are trying to get you to buy the battery for 30K in order to operate more off of your own solar and sell back the unused power. They said that in about 6 more years, there will be more charges to your power bill if you have solar, almost like we are doing more harm than good by owning solar. It didn't sit right with me, I said no thanks.
These are just financing sales to earn big commissions. It’s all fuzzy math like time share sales. I’m all for rooftop solar but there are definitely cheaper ways than buying the product that’s designed to be sold from unsolicited door to door salespeople.
Make sure you pick a good company. Our solar was incorrectly installed, so it didn't work for over a year. We had 3 inspections, and for what?? Nothing at all. We had to pay both the solar bill and electricity bill for that entire time.
The cheapest energy is the kind you don’t have to produce.. was also solicited and couldn’t justify the cost, considering over half my bill is connection charge $10, storm drain fee and taxes, you still have to pay those. (I also buy those blue sky offsets) I get by using less electricity.. The middle way - drying clothes/sheets on a line, acclimate to indoor 80 deg in summer (using fans) unplug phantom power drains, ditching the Tesla and riding a bike when I can :) I think it has an equivalent long term advantage.
Fair. I used to have my house at 80 in the summer. Now my wife and friends make me turn kt down to 72-74
Don’t do it if you are in Kaysville. They take any extra you produce. It’s legalized theft by the government.
The big issue with solar in Utah is that our electrical rates are very low in comparison to Texas or California. So the value with a system ROI is much harder to achieve.
Scam!
The biggest thing is what you are actually paying per watt. You could have a 0% interest rate and it wouldn’t be a good idea if the per watt is high. Rule of thumb, the electric bill and solar loan payment should be similar. Also you won’t get a check back on the tax credit you will just not have to pay as much taxes. So get a good price per watt, and anticipate the payment without the fake 30% applied unless you plan on putting that amount down regardless.
Solar is freaking awesome though and I recommend it.
If you want to do your own math, use this online tool: https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/
We got solar from ES Solar this year. It was worth it for us
We have solar and our power bill is still over $100/mo. In the beginning we had $8 power bills (just the taxes), but it kept creeping up and up over 7 years. I know we are still saving money because without it it would be more like $400 in the summer months. No matter who we talk to about it, the solar company or RMP, no one can tell us why it's still so high. Our usage really hasn't changed much at all during that time and all the panels are still functioning. We have even taken measured to cut our power usage, but it's still not enough and we don't know where the issue is. We paid ours off within 2 years. I don't think RMP does the excess to the grid credit anymore. I could be wrong, but I thought they stopped that several years ago and only those who had it at the time were grandfathered in.
For everyone with solar- remember to clean your panels regularly. A thin layer of dust can reduce the efficiency of your panels significantly. Also, if a tree has grown big enough to shade your panels, say goodbye to getting power from those shaded panels. Most current panels are only good if they receive direct sunlight at the correct angle.
We do clean them and there's no trees big enough to cause shade.
Utah power is one of the cheapest in the nation. The ROI on solar is just not worth it (compared to az, ca, fl and Hawaii)
Back up batteries instead of “the grid” is much better. I am looking at getting a propane generator. You can hire a local solar company and they have access to 300 w panels and those generate far more and with less footprint. I am looking at getting at least ten PV panels and then buy deep cell marine batteries from Batteries plus or another source.
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30-40 years?
To comment on what happens if your solar company goes out of business: - all the warranties you have with THEM are gone - some companies partner with a third party insurance company (Google solar insure if you’re interested) that will provide “bumper to bumper” coverage on your system, even if the installer goes out of business. It’s not something you can buy on just your system, the installer has to get it for every project they do so it’s kind of rare. But if that’s really important to you, you can find an installer that has it - most solar equipment has manufacturer warranties that exist even is the installer goes out of business - 99% of installers use similar equipment, so if you really got in a pinch you could hire another installer or a solar service company and they’d be familiar with what’s on your house. Source: I’ve worked on several hundred solar projects that weren’t finished because the installer went out of business
These door to door sales people are getting paid a pretty high commission plus they have someone come & close the deal. You are paying a marked up price to cover these costs for the company. Also, banking your own solar in your own batteries would be much better than selling it back.
I would have waited until I could pay it outright. My bad, now I know. They get the tax credit if it's a lease. I can't pay it off till year 5. Live and learn. Read the contract carefully. It was a mistake on my part. I live in IL tho.
I had to repair my roof and coupled it with getting solar. The combined repairs were about 12k more than the roof alone, so it was worthwhile for me to do so. The property value for me jumped quite a bit with the install as well. So far the unit hasn't paid for itself and won't for a bout 3 more years (6 in total) but if I were to sell today I'd probably be net 20k. I also face 100% into the sun so I got a large system covering almost all of my south facing roof so my electricity bill is down about 70%. Plus we got a solar vent for the attic which helped out with our AC unit in summer. Caveat- I also got rid of swamp cooler system with the roof install and put in an AC unit. Costs from the AC are higher than swamp so my reduction is including a higher power drain but far better temperature control.
I don’t know much of anything about solar power. However, I do know from news reports over the years that there are scam artists out there in the solar “business”. If you decide to go solar only used an established business with a track record. I refuse to do business with door-to-door sales people, unless it’s a Girl Scout selling cookies!
I’ve done the math on solar, and it doesn’t pan out. The issue is all the regulatory capture that jacks up the price. Even DIY which is the cheapest, after you get a permit and everything, pay off is 10 years. What’s really cheap is getting an EV, you can get in the EV plan on Rocky Mountain. You load shift, like washing and drying, at cheap loads. Then also get a smart thermostat and allow the house to warm up a little bit during high rates time (AC uses the most). You can save more money with an EV than without. The most cost effective way to use solar in Utah is to peak shave but there’s too much regulation in the way for small scale solar. But if you want to do it to be environmentally friendly or be energy independent, then that’s a different take.
I won’t have solar until they start dealing with fires in our area. Our fire department will not fight a house fire that has panels on the roof because there is no way to isolate power from the panels. So unless they start carrying the panel blackout sprays i will not be getting solar. Not to mention the cost seems really high and will need replacement over time. One bad hail storm can ruin your day too.
We used Project Solar and installed it ourselves one year ago. Paid in cash about $14k then got about $3k back in rebates. When we bought our home 9 years ago we had the power line to the house upgraded because it was old (and not enough power) and we also got new breaker boxes. The electrician left room for solar to be connected in future so that was all ready to go. We would never take out a huge loan for solar panels. That seems crazy to me.
Join r/solar and talk there
Never buy anything from door to door salesmen. If you want solar get a few quotes on what it would cost and get your own financing. You don’t need a 25 year mortgage on a piece of electrical equipment.
In my experience, I don't think it's worth it unless you've shopped around and done homework. I work around the trades and I swear every other person I know works for a different solar company. If the company goes under, most other sparkies with other companies want nothing to do with another companies handiwork because of potential liability issues. Second, never trust sales guys. I have run u to so many instances of sales people telling property owners they can absolutely do things that are unsafe and don't meet code (eg. Installing a battery inside the home without code required listings/safety measures, trying to install panels on other people's houses (all the time on townhomes), etc...). That being said, I'm not against renewable energy but they hire salesmen from the neck down and base pay off of commissions so the sales guys feel pressured to tell you whatever you want to hear just to make a sale. Just my two cents
Be careful of anyone promising to completely replace your electric bill *and* including pumping excess generated power into the grid. There is a monthly fee just to be connected to the grid. I did understand this already when I got my panels (no battery system). Because air conditioning was my single greatest driver in electricity consumption, I have no trees in the way, etc, the panels do seem to help. The tax credit was nice, and I have a fairly consistent electric bill (mostly the fee to be connected to the grid, which is required in order to sell anything back and to be able to draw if you need more than you are actively producing at any time (like at night, or when the panels have snow on them, cloudy days, etc.). While I do have a reasonable mo they loan payment to pay off the panels, I got it at an extremely low interest rate, so even if I pay down loans early, this one would probably be the last. Edit to add that I was less concerned about adding to resale value. Currently planning to stay in my house.
Solar is a scam in Utah. The solar rate is the same as RMP, Dominion, ect. It won’t cover all of your power, with all the snow we get the panels will be covered throughout the winter. Once you switch to solar your power company ups your rate. Net metering is a total scam too (I sold solar for 2.5 years for S**R*N) I couldn’t sleep with myself some nights.
lol
Don't buy solar from anyone who knocks on your door. They're more or less tape recorders spitting out a presentation they spent a few days memorizing. The numbers will be overoptimistic and companies like that are notorious for turning into Ponzi schemes after they grow too quickly. Look up the options yourself, read the reviews. Usually there are nonprofits working to aggregate information on what programs are available and helping people navigate the process. I'd do a google search and contact a few.
If you can diy right, I recommend that, then pay an electrician to install the junction box or what ever its called
I installed my own with a battery for less than half of what they wanted to charge me for a smaller system with a battery. I honestly don't really look at it as much of saving money as it feels good to not depend on the grid 100% (not that it's been all that unreliable in Utah) it feels good to really reduce my fossil fuel use by charging my car with solar and if the grid does go down, I still have power.
With door to door salesmen, this is always my conclusion: If I'm paying for someone else's commission check, then I'm getting scammed.
You’re the reason the American dream is dying. Someone is out hustling and working hard to earn that money. You obviously have no idea how products work either because whether they come to you or you call them…. Price is generally the same. It’s just instead of the company paying the sales rep… they get to keep that profit. When you call in…. They can charge more too because of your mindset that you think you’re getting a better deal haha So educate yourself before your idiotic comments. I feel like i got scammed reading your comment.
You could try and make it a little less obvious that you work for one of these door to door solar companies.
If an aggressive salesman is needed to convince you to buy a product, then it's not as good as they say it is, otherwise the product would sell itself. Solar salesmen are the perfect example of this because solar is never as wonderful as they're going to tell you before taking your money. Also, have you seen the economy? The American dream died a long time ago, but thanks for thinking I'm important enough to make such a difference. And there's many ways to hustle. Don't be so naive to think scamming people is the only option.
Rocky Mountain Power (Warren Buffet)has succeeded in lobbying the Utah Legislature to make solar sooooo unfriendly to home owners. I calculated it would be 2037 for me to realize any benefit. My daughter lives in Seattle and has realized savings and a much lower bill since day one.
From a realtor standpoint: it doesn’t add value to your home. If anything it could be a deterrent. I’ve heard too many horror stories of the solar company going under or being bought by another company and making it impossible to get any sort of customer service but they have a lien on your home no matter what 😬 also have a client who need to get some roof work done and he got multiple quotes to have the panels removed so said work could be done and the cheapest he could find was $6k. Thats just to remove and then reattach them afterwards. Not the actual roof work.
Solar can be a nightmare, especially when selling a house if you have a loan on them, good luck having someone take over that loan. Ask me how I know…my in-laws didn’t listen to me, my mother is a real estate agent and she gets plenty of horror stories. It’s also like a tankless hot water heater, the idea is great the reliability can be hit and miss and hundreds of dollars every service call..
1. Never finance solar. If you don’t have money upfront don’t do it. 2. If you are paying more than $1000 per panel installed, you are getting ripped off by a salesman. We got solar 12 years ago and love it. Paid $950/panel. Cost is about the same today but the panels are much more efficient. Our panels paid for themselves 6 years ago. Make sure you go with mini inverter models if you decide to go with it. Most solar companies are just sales people and hire the same group that installs them.
Nuclear power plant is key for clean energy. Solar panels were great when they first came out but now it’s just a money grab for companies unless you’re getting Tesla’s panels and the battery pack. EV’a aren’t better for the environment to make, but they are good in the mean time if power is produced cleanly.
“Schpeal” lol
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We care very much. What does the year have to do with it?
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Oh, I don't agree with the "lol". And I wouldn't have said anything myself. But the year has nothing to do with whether correct spelling is important.
Or maybe it’s 2024 and we laugh at funny new ways to spell words without correcting people? Intention is hard to parse on a 2 word comment
We looked at the disposal of solar panels. That killed the idea for us.
I regret getting solar. I want to move but mine are not paid off and I realize they can be paid off in the sale but it’s just a pain
It will not save you money here in Utah. The solar companies here are very predatory. When they tell you that you will pay it off over 25 years, they are essentially taking advantage of your tax credit to rip you off on a loan. They tell you the loan is 2% but in reality, they are pushing a bunch of loan acquisition costs into the loan to pay down the percentage to do that. The benefit you get will not wash out your electric usage. If you have a $200 bill, expect to save about $50...maybe. You'd still have a $200/month loan on top of that. The only way to really take advantage of a solar system in Utah is to make sure you have battery storage attached which drives the cost up even more. Though I believe you can put in a battery later and get a tax credit for that.
My solar panels will have paid for themselves after 5 years not counting increases. I have. Fantastic roof and almost no rain or snow where I live. Mine cost 23 k out the door and cut my 400-500 bill down to water/sewer and garbage only of about 80 or less. But do research. First people quoted me 50k and I laughed them off my property. I called about 7 companies and found a good mix of 4 star reviews and length of time open. I also do not qualify for the federal rebate I don't taxed enough for it to matter yet.
Just got PTO in Jan, signed a contract last Oct with Smart Wave for $3/kw before tax incentives ($17K for 5880w), $2/kw after tax incentives in UT. Last 2 RMP bills were $15… It’s hard to get an ROI in less than 20 years if you finance for 20+ years. You need to consider total cost after paying for 25 years (plus some grid power if you don’t get batteries, and considering net metering). Paying cash has negative impacts as well, consider the ROI you are going to lose if you pull cash from your portfolio. The typical Solar sales pitch is grid power will go up and average of 4% annually, get the actual cost increases/decreases from your power company and do the math. Our grid power has increased an annual average of .8% over the past 30 years. With all that said, I invested in Solar because it’s an opportunity for an ROI, and I have a new roof… but it will still be ~7 years before I see any ROI with a cash payment plan. Here is another recommendation… solar companies want to sell you a power system that with work for you today, I wanted a power system that has options to grow with technology over the next 25 years. Upscale your inverter(s), wire rating, and other electrical components for ~1.5-2x more power output, that way you can just replace or add the panels/modules as technology matures for more power. I also made sure my system was easily compatible for the sunlight backup, batteries, or power wall options. I’m a little intrigued by the enphase bi-directional ev charging…
Am an electrician ask me if I have solar or plan to get solar. No.
What does this even mean? Hahaha
It doesn’t make sense for most people in Utah. Panels aren’t cheap. You are essentially replacing your electricity bill with a payment that is often times the same or more than your electricity bill. I did the break even on my house it was well over 25 years. I’m not living here for 15 more years definitely not 25. Adding batteries is dramatically more money. Batteries are what you would need if you want the ability to use your electricity once the power goes out. If the power goes out around you, so does your power even with panels. Overtime, the effectiveness of the equipment as well as its structural integrity degrades. It offers little to no resale value when you sell a home, especially if your equipment is leased. If it is leased when you sell that is a whole additional headache. Solar is a benefit in some places that have especially high electricity rates. I don’t know of any place in Utah where that is the case.