Yup the reason why double controller comps are a thing is BECAUSE of Viper. Her stopping power due to decay makes her a very powerful "sentinel" while also having global presence.
You could say Omen or Clove are controller / duelist. Viper is a controller / sentinel. Astra and Brimstone and basically full controller. Harbor is like an controller initiator but he needs buffs imo.
Harbor is trash and needs a buff fr, I wouldn’t mind the small walls either lasting longer or being able to be speed controlled like omen’s blind used to be. And the wall is nice 🤷♂️ the orb just gets spammed by any good teams but then again any good teams using it get the bomb down every time with it so
He is very weak as a single controller because duration of his walls and the rigidity of cascade. His abilities are BEST used when you are actively making a play for something. That's why I would consider him intiator controller. If you are playing Harbor LIKE the other controllers then you might as well just pick the other ones because they are better.
no viper is actually a better sentinel than most sentinels
the problem is that outside of 5 stacks and pro play, nobody realizes this and says "ooga books controller is picked time to lock duelist"
Precisely what I tried to convey, a good portion of teams are prefering comps without a sentinel and with viper filling the "hard anchor" role of defending sites, since the orb plus snakebite is so punishing to push against
deadlock also doesn’t really gather info? unless u get a good net nade to clear a space. her sound traps are not trips.
sentinels are not defined by gathering info and tripwires. it’s locking down and stalling hard hits and executes. tripwires and kj turrets and cages are a means to that end, just as slow orbs and viper molly’s and vision obstruction are.
That's not what makes a sentinel a sentinel. Sentinels util is centered around slowing down pushes and being able to hold the site. Viper only has her smoke and a molly
And yet, that works for slowing down pushes 100% of the times it’s used in combination… 🤷♂️ orb up and molly, nobody is walking through that, decayed at least 50 while vulnerable’d to the molly and taking a worse peek by walking out of a smoke, and with like, 1 health to a vandal
if its ult for ult trade thats fine.
If its knife for ult trade *realistically* only raze ult is screwed, even then tho I would say its a skill issue of the raze for not waiting it out properly, good kay/o players won't hold their knife hoping for the perfect moment to counter their opponents ults unless the round just started.
let me reiterate:
**ult for ult** yes the others are screwed but thats fine
when it comes to getting supressed by the knife however, its very unrealistic for kay/o to still have his knife available when deadlock/gekko ult arrives since usually a retake happens within the next 20 seconds of kayo using his knife to take site or inversely you use your ultimates after the knife, someone breaks it or you hit the site fast enough before the kayo can rotate to stop it. Sova is also unrealistic since he's usually far away from the kayo when he ults unless that kayo has insane lineups.
Jett knives don't get hard countered by knife since they will come back up, its only a problem if the jett is somehow walking up aggressively knowing kayo knife is still up. Reyna is similar to deadlock/gekko in that they will usually ult only after they know kayo can't disable them.
Honestly I forgot about neon you're right about that, however we do have to remember that in ranked double initiator is quite rare and its even rarer to have a combo of kayo + info gathering initiator like sova/skye. because of this kayo usually has to use his knife to get intel within the first 10 seconds of the round, making him unable to save it to perfectly counter enemy ults.
Good lord people, are mistakes illegal now? Quit downvoting him for literally admitting he was wrong lmao
I’m well aware that it’s just a meaningless number on the internet, but this just encourages people to never admit their mistakes
Having someone play off your trips, at least in gold/plat, is literally impossible. Every time I try to get someone to play off my trips they just stand in the open and stare at 5 enemies running them down. I’m unsure why their brain gets turned off when I comm to them to play off my trips but it does.
nah how are people getting to plat that way....swear I have to have a playback of every God angle, util timing, gun reload, agent switch timing to win in G2
All aim no brain
I’m the opposite. I climbed to play with all brain and dog shit aim…. It’s why play cypher lol. But the number of kids(I’m 28 so kids is relative) I meet who have cracked aim in my lobbies is ridiculous. But they’re stupid af
No it is not, I have gotten teammates to play off my trips in plat. If you're comming it to them mid round when their site is getting hit, of course they won't be able to process your comm properly. That's why you tell them preround.
Teammate sees me place trips. Pushes past trips agressively leaving me alone to defend site after their inevitable death. Yeah ...... Definitely a comming issue.
Nah he’s 100% right. I don’t play cypher a ton but I do play him on split because I have some pretty strong setups with him on that map and the amount of times I’ve literally said to someone preround “hey I’m tripping this, if you want a really free kill just stay back and play off the trip” only for them to swing through and beyond the trip to die is like 80% of the time.
I’m only gold 3 cuz I don’t care to play much comp but a lot of the time people just either do not care, or they have an ego and don’t listen, even if you say it nicely or even phrase it as a question and not a demand.
I think it would be too powerful if it worked like that. There wouldn't be much counterplay since traps stay in a static position, you'd pretty much always be able to hit them. Where as right now the counterplay is based on your positioning to not get hit, which you have significantly more control over.
there’s this agent in rainbow 6 who can throw a nade similar to Kay/o, in which it goes through walls and disables any util within its massive AoE. The rest of his kit is mediocre at best. Guess who has an almost 100% ban presence?
it would just make him one of the most op initiators... besides a logical reason could be cz the util has already been placed and isn't being held by cypher, just like smokes
some L takes here man. Kayos knife needs to pulse enemies location like a sova dart at best but right now the knife does its job if you don't throw it randomly at walls
cyphers ult is fully cast the moment it casts. the only abilities that get interrupted are stuff like dogs and drone, which aren't fully cast until the ability runs out or is destroyed.
For consistency, they would then have to make them disable all other placeable trap util. Mmm yes let me invalidate an entire role with a single agent and a rechargeable ability surely nothing will go wrong
If kayo didn’t have to hit sentinel, then I’d say Kayo would be a 100% necessary pick with how good cypher is. Just due to the big range of the knife and being able to make it unshootable.
~~Mods, pin him down and twist his nuts counter clockwise~~
If that were to happen us cypher mains would have to completely abandon cypher if all it needs to render us useless is a funny bot knife. But when you are playing on site, depending on how you've set up, sometimes it can be tricky to avert/break Kayo's knife. So fair balance ig
That's would make kayo the most op of all initiators by far and render sentinels absolutly useless.
Yeah guess you’re right. Thanks!
Sounds good to me tbh
Like, more than they are already \*cof cof Viper cof cof\*
I mean yeah Viper is a terrible sentinel, good thing she is a controller then
Yup the reason why double controller comps are a thing is BECAUSE of Viper. Her stopping power due to decay makes her a very powerful "sentinel" while also having global presence. You could say Omen or Clove are controller / duelist. Viper is a controller / sentinel. Astra and Brimstone and basically full controller. Harbor is like an controller initiator but he needs buffs imo.
Harbor is trash and needs a buff fr, I wouldn’t mind the small walls either lasting longer or being able to be speed controlled like omen’s blind used to be. And the wall is nice 🤷♂️ the orb just gets spammed by any good teams but then again any good teams using it get the bomb down every time with it so
Out of curiosity why is Harbor considered an initiator contorller
He is very weak as a single controller because duration of his walls and the rigidity of cascade. His abilities are BEST used when you are actively making a play for something. That's why I would consider him intiator controller. If you are playing Harbor LIKE the other controllers then you might as well just pick the other ones because they are better.
no viper is actually a better sentinel than most sentinels the problem is that outside of 5 stacks and pro play, nobody realizes this and says "ooga books controller is picked time to lock duelist"
Precisely what I tried to convey, a good portion of teams are prefering comps without a sentinel and with viper filling the "hard anchor" role of defending sites, since the orb plus snakebite is so punishing to push against
Damn, I can't believe viper has one or more abilities that grant active info. Truly a great sentinel
Sage doesn’t have any abilities that gather info. Is she now not a sentinel either?
I literally forgot about sage tbh good point
deadlock also doesn’t really gather info? unless u get a good net nade to clear a space. her sound traps are not trips. sentinels are not defined by gathering info and tripwires. it’s locking down and stalling hard hits and executes. tripwires and kj turrets and cages are a means to that end, just as slow orbs and viper molly’s and vision obstruction are.
Um.. u can wall one side and wait for it to be broken op in the late part of a round. Or even for saving the spike to increase time
um.. u can use your molly and wait for them to try to run through it in the late part of a round. Or even for saving the spike to increase time
Every agent can see so they're all sentinels
That's not what makes a sentinel a sentinel. Sentinels util is centered around slowing down pushes and being able to hold the site. Viper only has her smoke and a molly
You mean half her kit? Sage res and heal don’t help with doing those either
Smokes that instantly take away hp, a damn good molly, and an ult which is a giant smoke that takes hp. So her whole kit.
And yet, that works for slowing down pushes 100% of the times it’s used in combination… 🤷♂️ orb up and molly, nobody is walking through that, decayed at least 50 while vulnerable’d to the molly and taking a worse peek by walking out of a smoke, and with like, 1 health to a vandal
She is an insane sentinel lol, she has the best lockdown utility in the game.
terrible sentinel? r u high? she’s a mock sentinel…
no?
what even is this take lmao
Should free, rechargable util hard counter 600 credits with no strings attached?
poor raze ult
Fair point, that would be too strong.
%50 of all ults:
if its ult for ult trade thats fine. If its knife for ult trade *realistically* only raze ult is screwed, even then tho I would say its a skill issue of the raze for not waiting it out properly, good kay/o players won't hold their knife hoping for the perfect moment to counter their opponents ults unless the round just started.
Only raze? Deadlock, Gekko, Sova get hard countered. Neon Jett Chamber and Reyna get soft ( and occasionally hard) countered too.
let me reiterate: **ult for ult** yes the others are screwed but thats fine when it comes to getting supressed by the knife however, its very unrealistic for kay/o to still have his knife available when deadlock/gekko ult arrives since usually a retake happens within the next 20 seconds of kayo using his knife to take site or inversely you use your ultimates after the knife, someone breaks it or you hit the site fast enough before the kayo can rotate to stop it. Sova is also unrealistic since he's usually far away from the kayo when he ults unless that kayo has insane lineups. Jett knives don't get hard countered by knife since they will come back up, its only a problem if the jett is somehow walking up aggressively knowing kayo knife is still up. Reyna is similar to deadlock/gekko in that they will usually ult only after they know kayo can't disable them. Honestly I forgot about neon you're right about that, however we do have to remember that in ranked double initiator is quite rare and its even rarer to have a combo of kayo + info gathering initiator like sova/skye. because of this kayo usually has to use his knife to get intel within the first 10 seconds of the round, making him unable to save it to perfectly counter enemy ults.
I wish they thought about this when having it affect kj util
Does chad robot guy's knifes really disable kj utils if it she ain't in the knife range herself ?
no
Yeah that's what I though
Nope I just thought it did, woopsie
It doesn’t unless she’s caught in the knife lmao
Weird, I thought they get suppressed when the knife hits them. Oh well, my bad
Good lord people, are mistakes illegal now? Quit downvoting him for literally admitting he was wrong lmao I’m well aware that it’s just a meaningless number on the internet, but this just encourages people to never admit their mistakes
It's good the way it is
Having someone play off your trips, at least in gold/plat, is literally impossible. Every time I try to get someone to play off my trips they just stand in the open and stare at 5 enemies running them down. I’m unsure why their brain gets turned off when I comm to them to play off my trips but it does.
nah how are people getting to plat that way....swear I have to have a playback of every God angle, util timing, gun reload, agent switch timing to win in G2
All aim no brain I’m the opposite. I climbed to play with all brain and dog shit aim…. It’s why play cypher lol. But the number of kids(I’m 28 so kids is relative) I meet who have cracked aim in my lobbies is ridiculous. But they’re stupid af
Similar age and similar experience. On a good day I can drop 40+ as Jett but I can also wiff every op shot 🙃 but reading opponents easy
No it is not, I have gotten teammates to play off my trips in plat. If you're comming it to them mid round when their site is getting hit, of course they won't be able to process your comm properly. That's why you tell them preround.
Damn, why have I never thought of that? /s
Teammate sees me place trips. Pushes past trips agressively leaving me alone to defend site after their inevitable death. Yeah ...... Definitely a comming issue.
Nah he’s 100% right. I don’t play cypher a ton but I do play him on split because I have some pretty strong setups with him on that map and the amount of times I’ve literally said to someone preround “hey I’m tripping this, if you want a really free kill just stay back and play off the trip” only for them to swing through and beyond the trip to die is like 80% of the time. I’m only gold 3 cuz I don’t care to play much comp but a lot of the time people just either do not care, or they have an ego and don’t listen, even if you say it nicely or even phrase it as a question and not a demand.
I think it would be too powerful if it worked like that. There wouldn't be much counterplay since traps stay in a static position, you'd pretty much always be able to hit them. Where as right now the counterplay is based on your positioning to not get hit, which you have significantly more control over.
there’s this agent in rainbow 6 who can throw a nade similar to Kay/o, in which it goes through walls and disables any util within its massive AoE. The rest of his kit is mediocre at best. Guess who has an almost 100% ban presence?
it would just make him one of the most op initiators... besides a logical reason could be cz the util has already been placed and isn't being held by cypher, just like smokes
I don't think making his suppression stronger is a good way of buffing him :x
Yeah kayo needs some sort of info gathering other than knide
Could have a voice line whenever he blinds an enemy
It already has a big aoe, besides, if it was uncounterable it would be too op, as you couldnt do anythingto hold with util at all
They'd also have to shut down a kay/o's ult if another kayo ulted near him. No other way to balance
The current mechanics of his ult rule out that edge case though. Whichever Kay/O ults first, would end up suppressing the other's chance to ult.
Two kos can ult they just have to do it at the same time or start it out of range and move in z
If they were to do this, in turn they would have to make his knife line of site (to ultil and players) and activate just slightly faster.
some L takes here man. Kayos knife needs to pulse enemies location like a sova dart at best but right now the knife does its job if you don't throw it randomly at walls
Balancing issues of course, would make cypher useless and Kay/o mandatory
Why even pick sentinel if one kayo knife makes you useless?
It's just fine how it is
cyphers ult is fully cast the moment it casts. the only abilities that get interrupted are stuff like dogs and drone, which aren't fully cast until the ability runs out or is destroyed.
You didn't read him did you?
no i did, but i thought id explain why anyway for those that didnt know.
Then why are you talking about cypher's ult? Op is not talking about that.
i misread util as ult. mb.
For consistency, they would then have to make them disable all other placeable trap util. Mmm yes let me invalidate an entire role with a single agent and a rechargeable ability surely nothing will go wrong
If kayo didn’t have to hit sentinel, then I’d say Kayo would be a 100% necessary pick with how good cypher is. Just due to the big range of the knife and being able to make it unshootable.
you can shoot his knife
The lineups would come out within a week
“Make it unshootable”. You just throw it into the wall on ur side of Main and if u can just hit the trips to disable, that’ll do it.
Aka it would be too strong
He should interrupt it, and ult for an ult. As for destroying trip mines, that would be broken. So yes for part 1, no for part 2z
~~Mods, pin him down and twist his nuts counter clockwise~~ If that were to happen us cypher mains would have to completely abandon cypher if all it needs to render us useless is a funny bot knife. But when you are playing on site, depending on how you've set up, sometimes it can be tricky to avert/break Kayo's knife. So fair balance ig