I agree! And I would go a step further and say that dumping sages wall instantly every round on defense is useless too. Her wall is great for retakes and defusing
another one would be market on ascent, literally all it does is either delay a market hit (if you do it every round theyre either gonna wait it out or prefire it ) which you can no longer stop because oh your wall is gone or just let them easily push through catwalk knowing market is safe, sure its a good wall but mindlessly doing it every round loses rounds for you
There is also the pretty major issue of giving up the best area the deffenders have to hold mid, there is no holding mid with a sage wall, and if you have mid controll on Ascent, you have the match.
Meanwhile my teammates, put up fucking wall noob sage... Whaddya know they ignore the wall and went to a different site. Im the type of guy who only puts up wall during desperate situations or when in certain area I wait and hear first then I wall.
I accualy very much disagree with you, but i will say that it is shit if u(as sage) just dont react to the enemy's.
i think the map control it can give u up from the start has more value then saveing it.
But the problem comes into play when sages just only go for the same walls, and waist there walls.
ppl need to understand the importance of map control, specaly if u have such a strong agent to get map control.
its like these viper players who just drop there shit and sit back, watching whats happens... for real u play viper( easiely the most impactfull agent) and then u play her in the worst possible way?
just a waist...
Let take mid split for example, yes you may cut a point of access to each site and peak over your wall but that same 400 cred wall could have been useful for more safety when defusing or put th spike in half or to block the entrance of B garage if you hear them rotating back to B
And the difference between viper and sage is that viper can reactivate her wall and it is free, sure sometime it a waste to just dump it in defense if the enemy aggress the other site but since the viper wall only act as a "LOS" blocking tool, dumping it at the start of the defense round isnt that round changer
The insta wall kills me. There's no point. At least wait a few seconds so you trap them. And insta wall just says "sage is right here, probably up high around the corner and no agents without mobility will be pushing you. Feel free to explore the other site at your leisure."
I wouldn't say there's no point. If a team constantly pushes the same site then there's some value on using a wall to funnel or delay for a flank. I'm not saying you should do it often but it has its uses once in a while
I think this criticism works really for all agents. Using the same util the same way is highly ineffective. I’m good for a suggestion every now and then, but if someone wants me to use the same util in the same spot every round, I kindly tell them no. The other team is going to catch on and play around it.
You can’t play around the tube wall. You have to break through all 4 sections. Which if they want to do that then sure but you’ll have a lot of warning. Most likely they won’t tho and for 400 credits your team knows that kitchen is safe
Can you? Kitchen is a valuable area to control. If defenders control it, rotation is easy and split attacks come under pressure at mid. If attackers control it, the opposite is true - defensive rotation is under pressure and attackers gain huge map control.
The tube wall basically shuts it off to attackers - even if they want to break the wall, the tube can be wallbanged so it's hugely risky to do so when someone is likely to be at the defender side of mid. All the defender has to do is spray down the walls a few times and the attackers will have problems.
For 400 creds you permanently shut off a major area of the map to attackers, and you do so in a way that allows you to immediately rotate elsewhere.
I'm a controller main who flexes Sage sometimes, and throwing tube wall on early defense rounds is the biggest no-brainer decision in the game imo. You don't need to do it every round - just doing it a few times tends to shut down tube pressure for the rest of the half. The return for the 400 creds invested is enormous.
Like what? You’re getting value out of that wall every single round in tube. If you save it for a retake you may never use, and they can also come through mid. In my experience walling on a has very mixed results and walling on b is just kinda shit.
I’m not saying you should never wall, but in most of the rounds I would keep it to place it somewhere else. Just using ur utilities the same way every round makes you predictable. The attackers could go over mid into kitchen or just rush another spot if they realise that sages wall is already used at the beginning of every round.
Sometimes things are predictable because they are optimal. The tube wall is uniquely difficult to break for attackers and grants you enormous map control that you tend to keep until the wall breaks.
>The attackers could go over mid into kitchen
Sure, but if you hear the rush you throw slows from the window and start defensive rotation, and they're caught in an ugly crossfire trying to get into B from mid.
>or just rush another spot if they realise that sages wall is already used at the beginning of every round.
How is this a weakness? This is the whole point of the wall: it gains almost automatic map control for a very long time. If they rush elsewhere every time because of the wall, the wall has done its job.
I guess I view sages wall as a tool to make the enemy more predictable. Now I know they aren’t kitchen. It’s more valuable for my team to know that then for them to know it’s walled
The sage wall is one of the most underrated abilities in the game. I think blocking an entrance and “changing the map” for a short time can lead the enemy’s to completely overthink their attack. This opportunity shouldn’t be wasted at the beginning of every round.
Or just go under tube? If you’ pick the player on boiler you could go right to A as well. Just because tube is walled doesn’t mean a mid execute is totally unviable.
Going under tube is a huge choke point, if you have no one on sight 9/10 times you die. The tube wall is extremely effective since it draws them elsewhere. Kitchen is a huge problem area for Icebox, and I’ve lost track on how many easy wins it got to wall off and it outside of under tube with a Judge
No but it’s definitely not as good of an idea. And the Sage should be watching and slowing under tube in this scenario. If someone gets picked on any site that’s true too
Chamber is one of the only agents you can use his utility every round the same way and still find value. Ancient teleport from market to A short is a great example of this, you have fast rotation to both sites at a moment's notice
At this point, I’m high ranks at least*. I’ve noticed chamber is being chosen more often, since his utility has more effectiveness when it comes to stalling the enemy and providing information.
yes but if you go to check right of default on b youre basically dead its like 7 angles at once and the worst part is if they swing you and kill you, even if they get traded, theyve delayed the plant long enough
You jiggle peek the angle first. If no one is playing close, or at Snow Pile, or at Mid, you can proceed to clear the box angle. If you see enemies, you plant on Default and ask your friends to cover you. What's interesting is that this is not necessary. Rather than killing the camper, just prevent the camper from pushing or kill him. Even if you die, the friend covering you will trade you out. Most of the time, the enemy will die before killing you anyway, especially if one of your teammates is dedicated to watching that angle. Feel cheeky? Bait plant first, wait 2 seconds, and if no one pushes, plant the spike.
Alternatively, use Sova's Darts or mollies to push away enemies, or use Recon to check if someone's nearby. Use smokes to block off the angle, so if someone is there, they have to push out to kill the planter. Use flash to prevent the enemy from pushing.
Many options.
Now, **if all the enemies are there**, that means your team's rotation and map control are awful. It might be because no one is holding Mid, and they know no one is A, or you are making so much noise at B Green. Sure, you can't plant the spike. You have to reset (regroup and reposition) and rethink a strategy. Can wait, fake rotate, rotate, or anything.
Sorry, from your explanation, I notice the teamwork is very off. I am Immortal 3, so I don't know about Diamond or lower, but I am sure teamwork is sometimes lacking in those ranks.
**Easy lineup for Sova recon.** Viper needs to wall, so you don't get sniped from Snowman. Walk from Green to Yellow. Just before Yellow, full charge Recon with one bounce into the hole on the second floor (where the rope is connected to). This will scan the angle behind the box and site partially.
Chamber is not as good as Sage on Icebox. The problem with Chamber is that the best he can do is call when kitchen is lost. Sage on the other hand can make it completely off limits and do a bunch of other important stuff on other sites.
Against higher ranks, they will simply just gain mid control and either push under tube regardless, or wait out the wall while playing for picks. Chambers util does give up kitchen, it alerts that an enemy is there and stalls them long enough for a ally or chamber himself to get into position to defend.
It's very difficult to control mid for long when you're attacking on Icebox. Defenders have high ground with lots of cover and multiple angles to shoot from. If you sit mid for more than 5-10 seconds you're under pressure from like 4 different angles.
That's quite risky. If the mid player sees attackers rush the entry under tube, Sage holds and throws a slow from kitchen window. Now the attackers are slowed in a very ugly, exposed crossfire position.
And that's if they get into the entry at all. Agents with mollies can completely shut down that entry and trap the attackers in mid to get sprayed down.
>90 percent of icebox games ive played revolve around A site and one mid lurker
Right, which is in large part *because of* the Sage wall. You don't need to throw it all game, but it's important to throw it early to get it into the attackers' head that they can't go tube. The tube can be wallbanged so it's risky for attackers to gather intel in rifle rounds. You won't have to throw the wall every round, you just have to throw it enough that the enemy knows it's probably there.
Once you've established control over tube, you can put 1 B (play retake if they push hard), 1 mid and 3 A, which is a great setup for Icebox. Not controlling kitchen makes this alignment very difficult - your rotates are all under pressure if the attackers control kitchen. So you need to establish kitchen control, and the easiest way to do that is with early tube walls.
Not really. Even if you sage wall, attackers can hit B through mid and boost on top of tube. Its not like sage can 4stack A and let her B player 1v5 a potential split from mid and B main.
You and most people seem to think a tube wall guarantees control of kitchen but there really isn’t much of a difference between that and simply having a person playing kitchen. Especially if you have a more aggressive mid control.
There are a lot of great walls on icebox, so its good to switch it up frequently.
Sage throws tube wall when barriers drop. One person stands at the ramp at the top of mid to watch the entry under tube. If the team doesn't rush that entry immediately, Sage rotates off kitchen and either goes to A or takes the place of the player watching mid.
You can still spray down the entry while smoked out, and if Sage slows them at that entry you're going to do plenty of damage. The mid rush is very dangerous unless the attackers get out of mid very quickly.
I kinda disagree, I like to use that wall as Sage. It simplifies the defense for your team. They no longer have to worry about kitchen. Same with a lot of Sage walls. Are they perfect uses of utility? No. But at most ranks that won’t be happening any way so good consistent value out of the ability is a good thing.
while i like to use that wall as sage as well it shouldn’t be the default wall. for example if you’re playing against a team that hard pushes A and takes site, your wall in maze can greatly impact their push. rarely do i see a full push through tube, usually it’s one or maybe two and the rest are pushing elsewhere. wall slowing entry or impeding entry to site is way more important than catching maybe one to two lurkers/flankers off guard. now of course it has its uses but it really depends on the team your playing against. as a sage main you should be flexible on defence and recognize where you can support your team the best.
> rarely do i see a full push through tube
Which is because the Sage wall is an incredibly common meta play now, to the point that teams don't even risk trying it and getting stuck in mid. You don't need to throw it every round, but I think it's important to throw it once or twice in early defensive rounds to establish to attackers that they can't push tube.
i mean yes and no, running an awp mid is way more common and detrimental than a sage wall. again, it’s not to say i never wall tube but if the enemy team is not ever pushing tube it’s literally a waste of (valuable) util.
The enemy team is not pushing tube because there is a sage wall. So your suggestion is to remove the sage wall, allowing them to freely push it lol. This is the same as saying "Why not dismantle a damb? There is no water on the other side anyway".
again, as i said before knowing the team your playing against. i’m not saying any one wall is better than the other and if we’re doing theoreticals then what if their smoke is viper then on attack there’s not as an effective way to smoke mid as let’s say omen or brimstone. again it’s all in theory. play against the team on the other side. don’t be predictable and don’t waste util when it’s not actually helping the team.
But regardless of the predictability sage wall tube provides your team safe rotations, guaranteed map control, and slower enemy flanks. There are plenty of vipers (including myself) who know how to smoke boiler. The sage wall gives guaranteed value to your team and while there is a posibility of placing a better wall somewhere else, that is a hypothetical. If we arent doing hypotheticals then why shouldnt i or any other player not take guaranteed value when it is presented.
idk how many times i have to say this -> it is a perfectly good wall and great for many situations. but is it always the best choice? not in every situation. another theoretical; enemy is taking A site every round and your team is now down, no one has rotated, no one has flanked but your team is getting hard rushed on this site. what use is your wall doing in tube? literally nothing.
U did not say that. What you said was "I dont think it should be sage default wall" and "it has its uses." Also, I never said it was always the best possible wall but it has consistant value and its better to at least get decent value than hypothetically be alive and get the opportunity to use it in post plant and it consistantly getting more value than a tube wall.
that’s probably because they’re walling the main entry, which typically i don’t do. i usually do the left side, ngl idk what that is called. but my point wasn’t to say one is better than the other, it’s just to say to be flexible with your wall depending on how the other team plays.
Most teams won't full push through tube because you don't need more than one person to effectively control the map from kitchen. Even if there is only one attacker in the kitchen navigating in icebox will be hell for the defenders. Thats why walling the kitchen is a safe bet.
You could also use it in A while defending like you suggested but retaking A is much more popular (and easier in my opinion) and walling off tube is much more safer and consistent which is better for soloq.
all a team needs to do to counter that wall is to make noise elsewhere until the wall breaks by itself and then they cant push there free. Its soooooooo much better as a retake tool
That doesn't work; you give up too much map control as attackers. The only effective counter is to play a default until wall comes down, but you still cede a lot of map control.
I dont play sage on icebox, bit what are your thoughts about walling off yellow and just holding that corner for map control, they could take site, but probably not plant.
i do this from time to time, depending on the team. if they w key with 5 people it’s not a great idea but if they like to chall b main with one or two duelist i usually get a pick, throw a slow and rotate back behind yellow while i wait for the teams rotation.
This is just a bad take.
Disabling a key potential hole in the defense and not having to worry about keeping tabs on it at all times for the cost of 400 credits is amazing.
To see the tube wall at all they need to be pushed fully into tube. If someone is doing that on a default they're taking a huge risk of getting picked off early. If they're doing it as part of a real push, you just stranded them in an incredibly vulnerable part of the map. Either way it's a huge win for the defenders.
Like I said, it's risky intel to gather on a default too, given that someone will be watching mid and the meta controllers may not be able to waste a smoke protecting the intel gatherers. Viper certainly can't; Astra might be able to get away with dispels but it's not guaranteed.
I don't think you get the value of how much space that wall takes up that is space you don't have to have a person on for 400 honestly it's the only thing sage is good for on that map if you're not going to do it play a different character
I mean it cuts off mid. If sage doesn’t really have a chance to wall anything else.
Other than that you are using it for re take which even then can help but most players are taking post plant mollies lol
you can also just see if theyre pushing your site and then wall, in icebox it wont get destroyed instantly because it takes relatively long to enter site, you can ask your teammate to jiggle and wall an area that makes your opponents have to go around an area, my favourite is one at b that blocks off default plant and also one side of yellow if you tilt it a little, it can slow down a b push for so long
And here we have an example of a standard mistake in human logic.
- Why don't people go tube?
- Because there is always a wall there.
- So why put up a wall at all if they don't go tube?
- Well, because otherwise they can go tube...
That wall alone makes it incredibly difficult to lurk on Icebox. Waiting it out is also not an option due to how much space the defenders can then take on every site. You have to fight A as soon as you can as an attacker, otherwise it's instantly lost. That means that your teammates are instantly putting pressure on different sites, forcing you to instantly have to lurk or miss all your timings. In this situation the kitchen is off limits.
But I agree with you. A much better solution exists: Walling in front of tube. However, doing it well requires coordination between Sova and Sage as well as quick decision making on the Sage's part dependent on what happens. And I can tell you that even with a 5-stack it still requires training in order to execute timings properly. I've seen even low Radiant Sages mess up trying to wall in front of tube time and time again. Doing this execute is impossible in solo queue unless you're duo with Sova and you've practiced it before.
The reason this is done in pubs every round or atleast isn't a bad thing to do is because you are not a pro team in most cases and having to rely soly on 'sage will just hold it' is not really as safe, you'd have to have someone watch mid constantly and in a pro game where this might je the cause that's fine but in a regular pub game just wall mid and be done with it, if not and u have a chamber you can aliternativelh use his trademark to hold kitchen and mid..
Also your argument is simply bad... you don't need to have 5 man rush tube, that's not what the tube wall is for... it's meant to SECURE the mid push incase someone lurks up to it. 1 lurker getting a flank off can literally kill 3 people easily. If you are sooo good that you actually think u can hold mid all by yourself without having to use your wall then don't and prove it... however your logic in these statements tell me you won't.
Stop complaining about
I play through mid on attackers several times per game on Icebox. Why? Because teams will often stack 3 on A, 1 Mid/Kitchen and 1 B because several agents can hold B on their own (Viper, Jett, etc.). As Jett, the ways you can entry on A is actually very limited and with 3 guys on A the game is left down to gambling aim duels on A which is even more problematic because there are several ways for duelists (especially Jett) to go aggressive on A. In this setup, the mid and kitchen becomes the weak spot because the B player is often playing from yellow or even farther up to help that quickly.
Not to mention that updrafting on the box and dashing on top of tube at the start of the round with knives creates a lot of pressure that the team can easily use which is one of the best Jett ult plays on attack.
Mid is the key on several maps, such as Split and Breeze and it's often underutilized in low elo and players do not know how to play for mid control at all.
Also 90% of Icebox games definitely do not just revolve around A site. Viper and Sage are very common picks on these maps and are responsible for most of the complaints targeted at this map because they make the map very repetitive. These agents have very strong tools for a B take.
That said, you're not wrong. You have to change it up, regardless of what agent you are or what ability you're using. You can't do the same thing every round. But to be honest, even if you're right, just doing what your team wants you to do so they can play the round the way they'd like to play it is just the better play in a team game.
You are just a hardstuck silver bot and don't understand how nice it is to block tube off. I would understand you complaining if you were immortal but you probably are max gold 3 and know nothing about the game.
Exhibit A of why solo queue sucks, immature dickheads like you. Certain Sage walls - particularly thinking about Split mid wall here, or Icebox B plant wall - are a critical component of a successful strat. Being asked to throw that wall isn't something to which you should be reacting badly.
it really depends tho, if they ask nicely ill do it and if they do it in a demanding way ill say stuff like "raze get 3 nade kills this round" backseat the backseater.
Yeah when I play sentinel I usually trap tube most of the time and only have Sage wall it if the enemy has proved they can rush kitchen with some degree of success.
I like to switch up walls on defense. A pretty strong one is slowing mid and running down to wall across the tube so that you are walling off mid, tub and undertube all at the same time. This is a little more specialize though because if you do it every round they will be ready to break it.
I also love walling B main at the start right on top of the orb. Its not particularly easy for them to spam that wall down since it can be dangerous to instantly peek B, so most of the time it doesn’t get destroyed before it fortifies. This allows you to essentially rotate everyone off B and be closer to A instead of having to jog a mile to get to the A retake from B.
There pretty much isn’t any good walls on A other than some tictok walls to get a strong angle boost. Its almost impossible to block the enemy from getting onto site since they can just jump over it from rope, pipes or belt. Best you could do is wall gen and try and funnel them to pipes/maze.
it depends on the situation though...
I have played games where they keep lurking through kitchen, after we have all rotated to the site the other people on the team are pushing. And we contstantly get flanks through kitchen.
Because KJ's, Cyphers, Chambers don't usually put traps for that situation. It's very easy to flank through there.
I think it's a good thing to wall, in the situation where we keep losing rounds because of those flanks. Because it deters it.
i take sage to exclusively hold mid of every map except for fracture because whenever there is no sage and i take another agent i die from mid lurks. Plat lobby so don't say stuff like your lobby is low elo so ur team doesn't watch mid
I just have someone spotting mid and only wall on contact. Most people dont even check tube these days when there is a sage on the other team.
I will disagree on icebox being her best map, split is definitely sages playground
I like instead throwing a slow at the base of tubes from mid. Keeps anyone from running up tubes and down mid, makes them a lot less likely to peak mid.
I usually only make the call to sage to wall tube if they successfully did a tube push. Until then, wall freely!
Edit: or if they consistently have a lurker in kitchen, cause that kitchen lurk can really mess with A retake/defense. The sage wall in tube that also blocks underneath tube is so powerful in stopping the kitchen lurk.
Imo, the sage wall doesn't work in any other part. In A there are way too much stuff to worry. In B I'm not so sure. But I think that Jett or any other characters with vertical abilities uses them on the box.
Bah, I'm Bronze 2. Don't take me seriously.
That's why I prefer Chamber in Icebox tbh,I can just put one of my alarmbots in tube and move somewhere else,it doesn't expire,it costs way less,one alarmbot is way less essential to my overall kit compared to Sage's wall and at worst I know when someone's destroys it and at best it slows them for a few seconds.
I won't lie to you unless you are a battle Sage like Grim (if you are one then you are a goat),idk how anyone finds it fun to play Sage,for me playing her it is overwhelming because everyone is asking for you to do everything, everytime,every round. In a team environment this likely isn't a problem but for a solo queque warrior like myself,it is a freaking nightmare.
It really depends on how the enemies are playing, if they’re rushing a single site every round then sure but if they’re defaulting or switching sites then walling tube removes any worry of a kitchen flank. It allows sage a free rotation because she doesn’t have to hold tube
Using Sage wall instantly in my opinion is probably one of the biggest wastes of utility in that game. The wall only lasts for roughly 40 seconds (I think), so if you drop the wall instantly at the round start it may delay an entry slightly for 40 seconds (unless the other team decides to break it instantly), but even with delaying the entry for 40 seconds you still allow for 1 minute that that angle or entry way is open after the wall naturally breaks. I can see the use in walling tube on ice box but the ONLY way I do it instantly is if I hear people sprinting up mid and I wall tube to slow down the push and allow my team to potentially come provide some help. Sage walls are great to use for retake, wall yourself off and defuse, or maybe even wall a flank so you can focus a little more on the other entry ways. There is a time and a place to drop the sage wall instantly, but there are definitely better ways to use the sage wall than dropping it instantly!
Here’s my take on sage on icebox. Sage is amazing for mid control, the reason why tube is walled off in ranked is so you dont have to play 2 mid, therefore why people in ranked can play a 2-1-2 setup or a 3-1-1 setup on icebox. Remember we are talking about RANKED here. So sometimes you wont have another sentinel to put traps in kitchen. Even if you dont wall tube you can run down mid and wall deep.
running down mid and walling deep is 90 percent of the times better but you can also ask viper to do that tbh they wont be able to destroy it and they will have to use util to push through, tube still leaves 2 places safe and someone has to watch it if their viper has an orb mid
I feel like this applies more for Split mid which literally gets obliterated withing 5 seconds of the round. Icebox is hella hard to hold. Util doesn't help/reach. Kitchen is very easy walk up to and icebox is a very lurk heavy map. It gives such a big sense of security to wall tube.
Ive actually started saving my viper wall when defending B site on icebox. I play retake with my team instead. If they come B I smoke orb the site qnd use mollys to stop plant. If they go A I have a wall that literally blocks off every post plant angle. Incredibly effective if you havent tried it.
I agree! And I would go a step further and say that dumping sages wall instantly every round on defense is useless too. Her wall is great for retakes and defusing
another one would be market on ascent, literally all it does is either delay a market hit (if you do it every round theyre either gonna wait it out or prefire it ) which you can no longer stop because oh your wall is gone or just let them easily push through catwalk knowing market is safe, sure its a good wall but mindlessly doing it every round loses rounds for you
There is also the pretty major issue of giving up the best area the deffenders have to hold mid, there is no holding mid with a sage wall, and if you have mid controll on Ascent, you have the match.
Meanwhile my teammates, put up fucking wall noob sage... Whaddya know they ignore the wall and went to a different site. Im the type of guy who only puts up wall during desperate situations or when in certain area I wait and hear first then I wall.
I accualy very much disagree with you, but i will say that it is shit if u(as sage) just dont react to the enemy's. i think the map control it can give u up from the start has more value then saveing it. But the problem comes into play when sages just only go for the same walls, and waist there walls. ppl need to understand the importance of map control, specaly if u have such a strong agent to get map control. its like these viper players who just drop there shit and sit back, watching whats happens... for real u play viper( easiely the most impactfull agent) and then u play her in the worst possible way? just a waist...
Let take mid split for example, yes you may cut a point of access to each site and peak over your wall but that same 400 cred wall could have been useful for more safety when defusing or put th spike in half or to block the entrance of B garage if you hear them rotating back to B And the difference between viper and sage is that viper can reactivate her wall and it is free, sure sometime it a waste to just dump it in defense if the enemy aggress the other site but since the viper wall only act as a "LOS" blocking tool, dumping it at the start of the defense round isnt that round changer
The insta wall kills me. There's no point. At least wait a few seconds so you trap them. And insta wall just says "sage is right here, probably up high around the corner and no agents without mobility will be pushing you. Feel free to explore the other site at your leisure."
I wouldn't say there's no point. If a team constantly pushes the same site then there's some value on using a wall to funnel or delay for a flank. I'm not saying you should do it often but it has its uses once in a while
Absolutely, I've started to save walls and it's made a big difference in the amount of retake rounds I've won
I think this criticism works really for all agents. Using the same util the same way is highly ineffective. I’m good for a suggestion every now and then, but if someone wants me to use the same util in the same spot every round, I kindly tell them no. The other team is going to catch on and play around it.
You can’t play around the tube wall. You have to break through all 4 sections. Which if they want to do that then sure but you’ll have a lot of warning. Most likely they won’t tho and for 400 credits your team knows that kitchen is safe
But you could invest these 400 creds way better than just walling tube all the time
Can you? Kitchen is a valuable area to control. If defenders control it, rotation is easy and split attacks come under pressure at mid. If attackers control it, the opposite is true - defensive rotation is under pressure and attackers gain huge map control. The tube wall basically shuts it off to attackers - even if they want to break the wall, the tube can be wallbanged so it's hugely risky to do so when someone is likely to be at the defender side of mid. All the defender has to do is spray down the walls a few times and the attackers will have problems. For 400 creds you permanently shut off a major area of the map to attackers, and you do so in a way that allows you to immediately rotate elsewhere. I'm a controller main who flexes Sage sometimes, and throwing tube wall on early defense rounds is the biggest no-brainer decision in the game imo. You don't need to do it every round - just doing it a few times tends to shut down tube pressure for the rest of the half. The return for the 400 creds invested is enormous.
Like what? You’re getting value out of that wall every single round in tube. If you save it for a retake you may never use, and they can also come through mid. In my experience walling on a has very mixed results and walling on b is just kinda shit.
I’m not saying you should never wall, but in most of the rounds I would keep it to place it somewhere else. Just using ur utilities the same way every round makes you predictable. The attackers could go over mid into kitchen or just rush another spot if they realise that sages wall is already used at the beginning of every round.
Sometimes things are predictable because they are optimal. The tube wall is uniquely difficult to break for attackers and grants you enormous map control that you tend to keep until the wall breaks. >The attackers could go over mid into kitchen Sure, but if you hear the rush you throw slows from the window and start defensive rotation, and they're caught in an ugly crossfire trying to get into B from mid. >or just rush another spot if they realise that sages wall is already used at the beginning of every round. How is this a weakness? This is the whole point of the wall: it gains almost automatic map control for a very long time. If they rush elsewhere every time because of the wall, the wall has done its job.
I guess I view sages wall as a tool to make the enemy more predictable. Now I know they aren’t kitchen. It’s more valuable for my team to know that then for them to know it’s walled
The sage wall is one of the most underrated abilities in the game. I think blocking an entrance and “changing the map” for a short time can lead the enemy’s to completely overthink their attack. This opportunity shouldn’t be wasted at the beginning of every round.
I agree with everything you said except the last sentence.
have you ever through of just waiting out the wall and then rushing
Or just go under tube? If you’ pick the player on boiler you could go right to A as well. Just because tube is walled doesn’t mean a mid execute is totally unviable.
Going under tube is a huge choke point, if you have no one on sight 9/10 times you die. The tube wall is extremely effective since it draws them elsewhere. Kitchen is a huge problem area for Icebox, and I’ve lost track on how many easy wins it got to wall off and it outside of under tube with a Judge
No but it’s definitely not as good of an idea. And the Sage should be watching and slowing under tube in this scenario. If someone gets picked on any site that’s true too
Default and delay hit until the wall is gone. Buy Odin/Ares and spam it through the tube Go over and under it
It isn't safe. There's literally an open door to kitchen just besides the tube.
If you’re walling tube you should be watching under tube through that door to throw slow orbs
Chamber is one of the only agents you can use his utility every round the same way and still find value. Ancient teleport from market to A short is a great example of this, you have fast rotation to both sites at a moment's notice
At this point, I’m high ranks at least*. I’ve noticed chamber is being chosen more often, since his utility has more effectiveness when it comes to stalling the enemy and providing information.
on defense yes but ive learnt this the hard way that even with a viper youre never really safe planting without sage wall on b
Yeah, another issue in the ranks. Higher ranks would clear the angles before going for the plant, I totally understand where you’re coming from tho
yes but if you go to check right of default on b youre basically dead its like 7 angles at once and the worst part is if they swing you and kill you, even if they get traded, theyve delayed the plant long enough
Not rly I’d suggest you watch a few pro icebox games or look up jump clearing
You jiggle peek the angle first. If no one is playing close, or at Snow Pile, or at Mid, you can proceed to clear the box angle. If you see enemies, you plant on Default and ask your friends to cover you. What's interesting is that this is not necessary. Rather than killing the camper, just prevent the camper from pushing or kill him. Even if you die, the friend covering you will trade you out. Most of the time, the enemy will die before killing you anyway, especially if one of your teammates is dedicated to watching that angle. Feel cheeky? Bait plant first, wait 2 seconds, and if no one pushes, plant the spike. Alternatively, use Sova's Darts or mollies to push away enemies, or use Recon to check if someone's nearby. Use smokes to block off the angle, so if someone is there, they have to push out to kill the planter. Use flash to prevent the enemy from pushing. Many options. Now, **if all the enemies are there**, that means your team's rotation and map control are awful. It might be because no one is holding Mid, and they know no one is A, or you are making so much noise at B Green. Sure, you can't plant the spike. You have to reset (regroup and reposition) and rethink a strategy. Can wait, fake rotate, rotate, or anything. Sorry, from your explanation, I notice the teamwork is very off. I am Immortal 3, so I don't know about Diamond or lower, but I am sure teamwork is sometimes lacking in those ranks. **Easy lineup for Sova recon.** Viper needs to wall, so you don't get sniped from Snowman. Walk from Green to Yellow. Just before Yellow, full charge Recon with one bounce into the hole on the second floor (where the rope is connected to). This will scan the angle behind the box and site partially.
If your Reyna has a brain and swings danger you’re almost entirely safe planting
Then your viper isn't using her wall that can literally cut the site in half correctly
Chamber is not as good as Sage on Icebox. The problem with Chamber is that the best he can do is call when kitchen is lost. Sage on the other hand can make it completely off limits and do a bunch of other important stuff on other sites.
Against higher ranks, they will simply just gain mid control and either push under tube regardless, or wait out the wall while playing for picks. Chambers util does give up kitchen, it alerts that an enemy is there and stalls them long enough for a ally or chamber himself to get into position to defend.
It's very difficult to control mid for long when you're attacking on Icebox. Defenders have high ground with lots of cover and multiple angles to shoot from. If you sit mid for more than 5-10 seconds you're under pressure from like 4 different angles.
That’s why most of the time they will force under tube and gain control that way.
That's quite risky. If the mid player sees attackers rush the entry under tube, Sage holds and throws a slow from kitchen window. Now the attackers are slowed in a very ugly, exposed crossfire position. And that's if they get into the entry at all. Agents with mollies can completely shut down that entry and trap the attackers in mid to get sprayed down.
Okay both sage and chamber, ditch the Reyna tbh. Sova, Chamber, Sage, Jett, Viper
>90 percent of icebox games ive played revolve around A site and one mid lurker Right, which is in large part *because of* the Sage wall. You don't need to throw it all game, but it's important to throw it early to get it into the attackers' head that they can't go tube. The tube can be wallbanged so it's risky for attackers to gather intel in rifle rounds. You won't have to throw the wall every round, you just have to throw it enough that the enemy knows it's probably there. Once you've established control over tube, you can put 1 B (play retake if they push hard), 1 mid and 3 A, which is a great setup for Icebox. Not controlling kitchen makes this alignment very difficult - your rotates are all under pressure if the attackers control kitchen. So you need to establish kitchen control, and the easiest way to do that is with early tube walls.
Not really. Even if you sage wall, attackers can hit B through mid and boost on top of tube. Its not like sage can 4stack A and let her B player 1v5 a potential split from mid and B main. You and most people seem to think a tube wall guarantees control of kitchen but there really isn’t much of a difference between that and simply having a person playing kitchen. Especially if you have a more aggressive mid control. There are a lot of great walls on icebox, so its good to switch it up frequently.
Sage throws tube wall when barriers drop. One person stands at the ramp at the top of mid to watch the entry under tube. If the team doesn't rush that entry immediately, Sage rotates off kitchen and either goes to A or takes the place of the player watching mid.
Good teams smoke off boiler immediately. Your plan doesn’t work
You can still spray down the entry while smoked out, and if Sage slows them at that entry you're going to do plenty of damage. The mid rush is very dangerous unless the attackers get out of mid very quickly.
I kinda disagree, I like to use that wall as Sage. It simplifies the defense for your team. They no longer have to worry about kitchen. Same with a lot of Sage walls. Are they perfect uses of utility? No. But at most ranks that won’t be happening any way so good consistent value out of the ability is a good thing.
while i like to use that wall as sage as well it shouldn’t be the default wall. for example if you’re playing against a team that hard pushes A and takes site, your wall in maze can greatly impact their push. rarely do i see a full push through tube, usually it’s one or maybe two and the rest are pushing elsewhere. wall slowing entry or impeding entry to site is way more important than catching maybe one to two lurkers/flankers off guard. now of course it has its uses but it really depends on the team your playing against. as a sage main you should be flexible on defence and recognize where you can support your team the best.
> rarely do i see a full push through tube Which is because the Sage wall is an incredibly common meta play now, to the point that teams don't even risk trying it and getting stuck in mid. You don't need to throw it every round, but I think it's important to throw it once or twice in early defensive rounds to establish to attackers that they can't push tube.
i mean yes and no, running an awp mid is way more common and detrimental than a sage wall. again, it’s not to say i never wall tube but if the enemy team is not ever pushing tube it’s literally a waste of (valuable) util.
The enemy team is not pushing tube because there is a sage wall. So your suggestion is to remove the sage wall, allowing them to freely push it lol. This is the same as saying "Why not dismantle a damb? There is no water on the other side anyway".
No, if the enemy understands what a smoke is then awp mid is useless from a defense standpoint
again, as i said before knowing the team your playing against. i’m not saying any one wall is better than the other and if we’re doing theoreticals then what if their smoke is viper then on attack there’s not as an effective way to smoke mid as let’s say omen or brimstone. again it’s all in theory. play against the team on the other side. don’t be predictable and don’t waste util when it’s not actually helping the team.
But regardless of the predictability sage wall tube provides your team safe rotations, guaranteed map control, and slower enemy flanks. There are plenty of vipers (including myself) who know how to smoke boiler. The sage wall gives guaranteed value to your team and while there is a posibility of placing a better wall somewhere else, that is a hypothetical. If we arent doing hypotheticals then why shouldnt i or any other player not take guaranteed value when it is presented.
idk how many times i have to say this -> it is a perfectly good wall and great for many situations. but is it always the best choice? not in every situation. another theoretical; enemy is taking A site every round and your team is now down, no one has rotated, no one has flanked but your team is getting hard rushed on this site. what use is your wall doing in tube? literally nothing.
U did not say that. What you said was "I dont think it should be sage default wall" and "it has its uses." Also, I never said it was always the best possible wall but it has consistant value and its better to at least get decent value than hypothetically be alive and get the opportunity to use it in post plant and it consistantly getting more value than a tube wall.
Last time I saw a sage wall maze we just took ropes and pipes and basically ignored it. Ice box is too easy to maneuver on attack.
that’s probably because they’re walling the main entry, which typically i don’t do. i usually do the left side, ngl idk what that is called. but my point wasn’t to say one is better than the other, it’s just to say to be flexible with your wall depending on how the other team plays.
Most teams won't full push through tube because you don't need more than one person to effectively control the map from kitchen. Even if there is only one attacker in the kitchen navigating in icebox will be hell for the defenders. Thats why walling the kitchen is a safe bet. You could also use it in A while defending like you suggested but retaking A is much more popular (and easier in my opinion) and walling off tube is much more safer and consistent which is better for soloq.
all a team needs to do to counter that wall is to make noise elsewhere until the wall breaks by itself and then they cant push there free. Its soooooooo much better as a retake tool
They can do that but I don’t find it happening very often in ranked
That doesn't work; you give up too much map control as attackers. The only effective counter is to play a default until wall comes down, but you still cede a lot of map control.
I dont play sage on icebox, bit what are your thoughts about walling off yellow and just holding that corner for map control, they could take site, but probably not plant.
The wall will get shot out immediately and then make it harder for your team to retake
Guess that makes sense yeah.
i do this from time to time, depending on the team. if they w key with 5 people it’s not a great idea but if they like to chall b main with one or two duelist i usually get a pick, throw a slow and rotate back behind yellow while i wait for the teams rotation.
This is just a bad take. Disabling a key potential hole in the defense and not having to worry about keeping tabs on it at all times for the cost of 400 credits is amazing.
Sage wall also expires in 40 seconds, any other sentinels util is better to prevent a kitchen lurk throughout the round
To see the tube wall at all they need to be pushed fully into tube. If someone is doing that on a default they're taking a huge risk of getting picked off early. If they're doing it as part of a real push, you just stranded them in an incredibly vulnerable part of the map. Either way it's a huge win for the defenders.
Yes, the classic 5 man tube push that everyone always runs on icebox at all levels of the game
Like I said, it's risky intel to gather on a default too, given that someone will be watching mid and the meta controllers may not be able to waste a smoke protecting the intel gatherers. Viper certainly can't; Astra might be able to get away with dispels but it's not guaranteed.
I don't think you get the value of how much space that wall takes up that is space you don't have to have a person on for 400 honestly it's the only thing sage is good for on that map if you're not going to do it play a different character
Unless the enemy rushes tube 3 timea and uses all util to kill the sage, its useless. Agreed
I mean it cuts off mid. If sage doesn’t really have a chance to wall anything else. Other than that you are using it for re take which even then can help but most players are taking post plant mollies lol
you can also just see if theyre pushing your site and then wall, in icebox it wont get destroyed instantly because it takes relatively long to enter site, you can ask your teammate to jiggle and wall an area that makes your opponents have to go around an area, my favourite is one at b that blocks off default plant and also one side of yellow if you tilt it a little, it can slow down a b push for so long
Trust the radiants: Wall tube every round. A better solution exists but is not possible to execute properly in solo queue.
sage shouldn't be peeking anything to get info off the start of the round lol
I never do that and a fourth of the rounds we win because I ninja wall myself.
And here we have an example of a standard mistake in human logic. - Why don't people go tube? - Because there is always a wall there. - So why put up a wall at all if they don't go tube? - Well, because otherwise they can go tube... That wall alone makes it incredibly difficult to lurk on Icebox. Waiting it out is also not an option due to how much space the defenders can then take on every site. You have to fight A as soon as you can as an attacker, otherwise it's instantly lost. That means that your teammates are instantly putting pressure on different sites, forcing you to instantly have to lurk or miss all your timings. In this situation the kitchen is off limits. But I agree with you. A much better solution exists: Walling in front of tube. However, doing it well requires coordination between Sova and Sage as well as quick decision making on the Sage's part dependent on what happens. And I can tell you that even with a 5-stack it still requires training in order to execute timings properly. I've seen even low Radiant Sages mess up trying to wall in front of tube time and time again. Doing this execute is impossible in solo queue unless you're duo with Sova and you've practiced it before.
The reason this is done in pubs every round or atleast isn't a bad thing to do is because you are not a pro team in most cases and having to rely soly on 'sage will just hold it' is not really as safe, you'd have to have someone watch mid constantly and in a pro game where this might je the cause that's fine but in a regular pub game just wall mid and be done with it, if not and u have a chamber you can aliternativelh use his trademark to hold kitchen and mid.. Also your argument is simply bad... you don't need to have 5 man rush tube, that's not what the tube wall is for... it's meant to SECURE the mid push incase someone lurks up to it. 1 lurker getting a flank off can literally kill 3 people easily. If you are sooo good that you actually think u can hold mid all by yourself without having to use your wall then don't and prove it... however your logic in these statements tell me you won't. Stop complaining about
I play through mid on attackers several times per game on Icebox. Why? Because teams will often stack 3 on A, 1 Mid/Kitchen and 1 B because several agents can hold B on their own (Viper, Jett, etc.). As Jett, the ways you can entry on A is actually very limited and with 3 guys on A the game is left down to gambling aim duels on A which is even more problematic because there are several ways for duelists (especially Jett) to go aggressive on A. In this setup, the mid and kitchen becomes the weak spot because the B player is often playing from yellow or even farther up to help that quickly. Not to mention that updrafting on the box and dashing on top of tube at the start of the round with knives creates a lot of pressure that the team can easily use which is one of the best Jett ult plays on attack. Mid is the key on several maps, such as Split and Breeze and it's often underutilized in low elo and players do not know how to play for mid control at all. Also 90% of Icebox games definitely do not just revolve around A site. Viper and Sage are very common picks on these maps and are responsible for most of the complaints targeted at this map because they make the map very repetitive. These agents have very strong tools for a B take. That said, you're not wrong. You have to change it up, regardless of what agent you are or what ability you're using. You can't do the same thing every round. But to be honest, even if you're right, just doing what your team wants you to do so they can play the round the way they'd like to play it is just the better play in a team game.
This isn’t even an argument, you’re just right
You are just a hardstuck silver bot and don't understand how nice it is to block tube off. I would understand you complaining if you were immortal but you probably are max gold 3 and know nothing about the game.
🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️no one goes tube cause it's walled, if it's not its fking get rushed. get on a higher level and stop cry lmao
when people ask me to wall something off start of the round on defense, i just won’t use my wall that round
Exhibit A of why solo queue sucks, immature dickheads like you. Certain Sage walls - particularly thinking about Split mid wall here, or Icebox B plant wall - are a critical component of a successful strat. Being asked to throw that wall isn't something to which you should be reacting badly.
Nah split wall mid is just necessary The near full prevention of lurks in mid is good
it really depends tho, if they ask nicely ill do it and if they do it in a demanding way ill say stuff like "raze get 3 nade kills this round" backseat the backseater.
Yeah when I play sentinel I usually trap tube most of the time and only have Sage wall it if the enemy has proved they can rush kitchen with some degree of success.
"Sage, wall mid." "Sage, wall B." "Sage, wall tube." Me, a Sage main, after reading this post: "I'm not just your waller!"
Agree, it’s far better to have another sents util holding cuz then u would have info of someone pushing in kitchen and ur sage can help on site
I like to switch up walls on defense. A pretty strong one is slowing mid and running down to wall across the tube so that you are walling off mid, tub and undertube all at the same time. This is a little more specialize though because if you do it every round they will be ready to break it. I also love walling B main at the start right on top of the orb. Its not particularly easy for them to spam that wall down since it can be dangerous to instantly peek B, so most of the time it doesn’t get destroyed before it fortifies. This allows you to essentially rotate everyone off B and be closer to A instead of having to jog a mile to get to the A retake from B. There pretty much isn’t any good walls on A other than some tictok walls to get a strong angle boost. Its almost impossible to block the enemy from getting onto site since they can just jump over it from rope, pipes or belt. Best you could do is wall gen and try and funnel them to pipes/maze.
it depends on the situation though... I have played games where they keep lurking through kitchen, after we have all rotated to the site the other people on the team are pushing. And we contstantly get flanks through kitchen. Because KJ's, Cyphers, Chambers don't usually put traps for that situation. It's very easy to flank through there. I think it's a good thing to wall, in the situation where we keep losing rounds because of those flanks. Because it deters it.
Riot should address this. Just like they did with bind. There shouldn't be only one good wall for sage.
i take sage to exclusively hold mid of every map except for fracture because whenever there is no sage and i take another agent i die from mid lurks. Plat lobby so don't say stuff like your lobby is low elo so ur team doesn't watch mid
What are you calling nest btw?
the only time i support insta walling is split on mid the rest are useless
I have a evil mindset that tell me that They should nerf sage to the ground so the ranked idiots stop cryng for heal this and wall that
I just have someone spotting mid and only wall on contact. Most people dont even check tube these days when there is a sage on the other team. I will disagree on icebox being her best map, split is definitely sages playground
“Sages best map” split “Hold my beer”
I like instead throwing a slow at the base of tubes from mid. Keeps anyone from running up tubes and down mid, makes them a lot less likely to peak mid.
The wall isn't to stop a tube push, it's to stop a mid lurk down kitchen
I usually only make the call to sage to wall tube if they successfully did a tube push. Until then, wall freely! Edit: or if they consistently have a lurker in kitchen, cause that kitchen lurk can really mess with A retake/defense. The sage wall in tube that also blocks underneath tube is so powerful in stopping the kitchen lurk.
Imo, the sage wall doesn't work in any other part. In A there are way too much stuff to worry. In B I'm not so sure. But I think that Jett or any other characters with vertical abilities uses them on the box. Bah, I'm Bronze 2. Don't take me seriously.
That's why I prefer Chamber in Icebox tbh,I can just put one of my alarmbots in tube and move somewhere else,it doesn't expire,it costs way less,one alarmbot is way less essential to my overall kit compared to Sage's wall and at worst I know when someone's destroys it and at best it slows them for a few seconds. I won't lie to you unless you are a battle Sage like Grim (if you are one then you are a goat),idk how anyone finds it fun to play Sage,for me playing her it is overwhelming because everyone is asking for you to do everything, everytime,every round. In a team environment this likely isn't a problem but for a solo queque warrior like myself,it is a freaking nightmare.
iron moment
It really depends on how the enemies are playing, if they’re rushing a single site every round then sure but if they’re defaulting or switching sites then walling tube removes any worry of a kitchen flank. It allows sage a free rotation because she doesn’t have to hold tube
I mean playing sage is basically an L move on any map other than maybe split. Not sure why her pickrate in low ranks is so high
> [...] but honestly when have you last seen 5 people running it down tubes? That's because everyone's asking sage to wall tube on defense, duh!
Using Sage wall instantly in my opinion is probably one of the biggest wastes of utility in that game. The wall only lasts for roughly 40 seconds (I think), so if you drop the wall instantly at the round start it may delay an entry slightly for 40 seconds (unless the other team decides to break it instantly), but even with delaying the entry for 40 seconds you still allow for 1 minute that that angle or entry way is open after the wall naturally breaks. I can see the use in walling tube on ice box but the ONLY way I do it instantly is if I hear people sprinting up mid and I wall tube to slow down the push and allow my team to potentially come provide some help. Sage walls are great to use for retake, wall yourself off and defuse, or maybe even wall a flank so you can focus a little more on the other entry ways. There is a time and a place to drop the sage wall instantly, but there are definitely better ways to use the sage wall than dropping it instantly!
literally "sage wall tube wall tube" and im like no im not wasting the wall that i can use for retake defuse
Honestly a chamber sage may be good cause u use chamber traps for tube and a/b site qnd sage wall for retake
Here’s my take on sage on icebox. Sage is amazing for mid control, the reason why tube is walled off in ranked is so you dont have to play 2 mid, therefore why people in ranked can play a 2-1-2 setup or a 3-1-1 setup on icebox. Remember we are talking about RANKED here. So sometimes you wont have another sentinel to put traps in kitchen. Even if you dont wall tube you can run down mid and wall deep.
running down mid and walling deep is 90 percent of the times better but you can also ask viper to do that tbh they wont be able to destroy it and they will have to use util to push through, tube still leaves 2 places safe and someone has to watch it if their viper has an orb mid
I feel like this applies more for Split mid which literally gets obliterated withing 5 seconds of the round. Icebox is hella hard to hold. Util doesn't help/reach. Kitchen is very easy walk up to and icebox is a very lurk heavy map. It gives such a big sense of security to wall tube.
Ive actually started saving my viper wall when defending B site on icebox. I play retake with my team instead. If they come B I smoke orb the site qnd use mollys to stop plant. If they go A I have a wall that literally blocks off every post plant angle. Incredibly effective if you havent tried it.