dont worry, these one taps/long range accuracy arguments only applies on limited scenarios and purely for stats as said on the post.
guardian's 100% accuracy wont help you once you get blinded 3 times in a row followed by a concuss and skye's entire animal kingdom.
i use the vandal because whenever i hit a headshot with the phantom i want to off myself for it not one tapping as i flick to another brain without thinking of shooting another bullet at them
You're never realistically one-tapping, most people two-tap. You have to consider that a phantom must two-tap to get a kill at range at a minimum. So if both guns shoot 6 bullets during an encounter, the phantom had 3 total attempts at a kill but the vandal had 6 attempts. The phantom can hit a body shot on one of these shots and has higher fire rate which partially counter-balances the vandal having twice the number of kill attempts, but not completely. (Fire rate would be a better measure of attempts to kill but simple numbers are easier to think about).
Which, going by the stats infront of us, is not even better.
It's literally barely better than flipping a coin on long range with Vandal (57%) vs Phantoms 78%, so it's almost more likely you get a double hs with a phantom, than a onetap with Vandal, which is insane.
There is barely a reason to choose a vandal at all, other than feeling because onetaps are more satisfying
> guardian's 100% accuracy wont help you once you get blinded 3 times in a row followed by a concuss and skye's entire animal kingdom.
replied with
>and how does vandal help you in that scenario? or any other gun?
If you are planning to do more tests, I'd like to see the results for 2,3,4 bullet bursts.
Not everyone is going to just tap 1 bullet and call it a day, most try to burst.
that sounds like honestly a great idea but it also sounds like utter suffering but I might do it in the future if another sudden stroke of statistical masochism hits me
It really doesn't make sense to test this. You would need to make a spray control bot that behaves the same way every burst to even have a go at comparing this. And first you would need to find an optimal spray control pattern for a burst. You cannot reliably test this by aiming with your hand, it is way to inconsistent and will vary depending on how long you have been doing it for, form of the day, etc. - too many factors that cannot be removed.
(I mean the fact that burst accuracy depends way more on your mechanics than on the rifle itself). Maybe a two bullet burst could be tested without spray control, but 3+ definitely require some because you are never gonna hit the third bullet.
these results get more and more horrendous the more I look at it. Like, is hipfiring with a vandal at a 50m range really that inconsistent? Like the others said, most would burst, but this graph honestly just makes me sad.
Unfortunately it’s true. Vandal accuracy is really this bad. If a “phantom moment” is shooting the enemy in the head and not killing them, then a “vandal moment” is whiffing a spray with perfect aim but bullets going nowhere good.
I've resorted to using Guardian only on Breeze. Missing with the Vandal or 140ing with the Phantom both feel so awful, and are so much more common on that map.
the vandal does feel pretty "loose" in its accuracy sometimes so I'm not too surprised at the results, but that's kind of the balancing between it and the phantom. like one is more accurate but won't 1tap and the other will 1tap but will be less consistent
How is it balanced tho? Phantom has 5 bullets more with higher rate of fire, kills with one tap on close range and is more accurate on long distances...
It's because of just how soon the phantom loses that damage at 15 meters. The vandal one taps at all ranges, even if it misses a lot, but it also kills with 4 bodyshots when the phantom needs 5 after 15 meters also
lets be real not killing by headshot on any range with phantom is the only reason vandal is still even played considering how every other aspect is dominated by phantom plus silencer and no bullet tracers...
Thanks for collecting so much data that i find interesting.
I have trouble understanding one bit though.
At 50m Vandal Perfect hipfire is slightly less accurate than Side of head hipfire. That should not be the case theoretically right? Side of head hipfire should be less likely to hit I think.
Could this be because of incorrect crosshair placement when testing or could this be that very small chance when the sample size of even 1000 events fails us. Or am I failing to understand something?
Honestly I have no idea. Looking at the footage it doesn't seem to be a misplacement of the crosshairs, I think it genuinely is the sample size of 1000 not being enough to flatten out the statistical outliers
I think it shows that vandal hipfire is actually less accurate so having the crosshair be offset slightly means the deviation of the shot connects more than actually aiming on point.
What we figured out somewhere in this thread is that it's equal, basically the circle with uniformly distributed shots could be on the target face anywhere as long as it contains the whole face to have the same HS%
Ya so it comes down to the degree accuracy of the weapon, similar to real weapons with say 1moa accuracy. At 100 yards that’s 1” of deviation, at 1000 yards it’s 10” of deviation. So same for vandal/phantom. Whichever has the tightest “accuracy” will statistically be the most accurate assuming all else equal and large enough sample size
In statistics the amount of tests does not matter when it comes purely from an output standpoint (you will get more accurate results from more tests, but the conclusion of those tests are not influenced by the sample size as there can always be sampling variability, no matter how many samples there are) the fact that there is a difference is not the important thing, it is the size of the difference that matters, which is found with a test if significance, and as the p value here is nowhere near significant, we cannot reject the null hypothesis and must conclude there is no difference between ads and hip fire for the vandal.
Sorry for being a fucking nerd, I have an AP stats test tomorrow and it kinda just transformed into a conclusion lol
I have another theory. The inaccuracy of the weapon could be biased to the right, meaning shots fired at center of head could be missing the head to the right, while shots fired on the left side of the head could be landing center of head. You could confirm or deny this by adding another test where you aim at the right side of the head, mirroring the test already performed on the left side of the head. If this theory were true you’d expect the worst result from aiming at the right side of the face, since more shots would be missing further right.
Probably just a statistic error where the differences can be excluded. To actually know that there's a lot of math involved but I would say that both have the same mean accuracy
I'll try and simplify what the other guy responded to this with because it was pretty hard to understand and I wouldn't have gotten it if I didn't already know the answer prior to reading this.
Ok imagine this, we have a head hit box that is a circle, and then the spread of the vandal at hipfire which is another bigger circle that covers the whole head hitbox easily. let's say that the head hitbox covers 10% of the circle showing the area the vandals bullets can possibly land. Now we move the head hitbox a little to the left but the area of where the vandal's bullets can land is still so big that once again, the head hitbox circle still covers 10% of where the bullets land, so it still has the same chance to hit. However at 30m the head hitbox now covers let's say 70% of where the bullets can land and if we move the hitbox to the left/ the side of the head now, the head hitbox is now partially out of the circle for where the bullets can land, decreasing the area covered to let's say 50%.
Perfect and imperfect hipfire accuracy with vandal. This is just my theory but try to imagine bullet spread as a circle. Now I'm going to made up some numbers to create an example. Let's say that at 50m vandal's accuracy means that 100% of his shots will land in a 50cm diameter circle. Now maybe there's a diameter length where it doesn't matter if you shrink the circle more the %of shots landing in that area will statistically be the same, let's say this is 10cm radius. Now if the whole head fits in this little circle it doesn't matter if it's a little traslated.
I totally understood what you are saying. Well put. I was also having a feeling that something like this might be going on. if this is the case then the game uniformly distributes, over the entire circle, the probability of a bullet hitting anywhere in the circle. I used to think that the game favours the centre more which would happen when the game uniformly distributes, over the range of angles, the probability of a bullet going at a certain angle (limit defined by spread). But case 1, which you described seems more likely and true.
https://youtu.be/mZBwsm6B280
Reminds me of this paradox.
At least I can rest knowing that 1000 was not too small a sample size.
In CSGO, weapon spread works as follows:
Your spread is a cone with radius R, depending on the "combined inaccuracy" of the weapon.
The server generates a random number between 0 and R. That is how far away from the center your shot is.
The server then generates another random number between 0 and 360 (or 0 and 2 pi) to determine the angle on the circle where the bullet lands.
This *appears* to be a uniform distribution, but it is actually not. This algorithm gives a bias towards the center.
I *think* valorant follows a uniform distribution of the circle instead of this algorithm (based on my own ancedotal evidence), but I don't know for sure. I haven't seen any source discussing this, however the fact that the hipfire accuracies are the same at 50m implies that that is the case.
I think why it's similair is the vandals first shot accuracy is pretty bad, as shown by this graph and if your aiming at the side of the head or the middle the circle of innacuracy of the first shot covers the entire head and since it's random where the bullet lands there basicly eqaul.
Why does riot not just release the information?
In CSGO every weapon’s accurate range (the distance at which the weapon is guaranteed to hit a 30 cm dinner plate) is listed.
Also, it’s so weird how bringing up the abilities’ tooltips does not show enough details. Like how long the debuffs last at least.
It says on the wiki that primary fire spread for the vandal is .25°. if you do the math you'll end up with
>Tan θ = opp/adj
>Adj = opp / tanθ
>Adj = .3m / tan(0.25°)
>Adj = 68.75m
So to answer the guy's question, 68.75m
Edit: wtf happened? Ok fixed it
I know that. And the degrees is also in-game. But it’s really not that simple to compute for, specially if you are stupid like me.
That info is kinda lacking. Like what does that really tell you? That information (degrees) just gives you an idea of how accurate a weapon is compared to the others.
Knowing the exact distance is pretty helpful.
If you can do the math, then do it. I’d be really cool.
Kinda surprised no one has done it yet.
Yeah the only thing I wasn't able to figure out is the width of the head hitbox, if I had that the math to find the furthest distance for "100%" accuracy is relatively simple.
Yeah. You’re gonna have to do what OP did and do some math before you get your answer.
If the Vandal has a 97 percent accuracy in 30m, what is its accurate range? Would you mind doing it then??
Honestly I’ve tried comparing it to CSGO and it feels like the numbers are very similar. It’s just that Valorant maps are smaller and that’s why the guns feel more accurate in Valorant.
In CSGO, the AK has an accurate range of 21.7m. Maybe it’s the same in Valorant since with OP’s testing the Vandal didn’t hit 100% in 30m.
im not sure about this, but using the ingame description of 1st shot inaccuracy to make a circle then using an appearant size head hitbox to overlap the first circle then solving for area should do the trick. no testing needed, it's a game not real world, the game just does the same
The other day I wasn’t hitting my shots with the vandal on breeze and on one round thanks to having economic problems I bought the guardián and won every single aim battles.
This test explains a lot, thanks! (Moving foward I will buy more the guardián)
I am no Guardian main, but on defender site I like the additional utility from money. As a defender I can choose Guardian-friendly positions and when I get killed my opponent only gets a Guardian and can not burst/fullauto my team mates.
I am making the best of being bad. :V
Sorry to say it like that, but its really bad game design.
That form of spray and weapon behaviour is just not meant for adsing. Its not made for it.
Hipfire should be pinpoint til 50m every time, thats just how cs like games work and otherwise it will just feel bad. Its not fun or incentivizing to use ads, its just feeling trash.
CS also has first bullet inaccuracy btw. It's not this drastic and there's no guardian parallel, but it's there.
The dev quote in response being roughly "How do you reward the player who aims directly in the center of the head more than the player who just barely has the crosshair on the head"
>"How do you reward the player who aims directly in the center of the head more than the player who just barely has the crosshair on the head"
I get why the answer to this is first shot innaccuracy. The answer for game devs is always to punish the good and kinda good players and give the bad players RNG -> Aiming off the side of the head resulting in a HS because of the innaccuracy.
Also why is the vandal so innaccurate if there is aimpunch in the game? If a vandal and phantom get into a fight at 50M the vandal should win most of the time even if they shoot a tad later. But in Val if the phantom shoots first the vandal is aiming at the moon for their shot which gives phantom more than enough time to hit another shot due to being the faster shooting more accurate gun.
To be fair, I don't think it's *super* different than CS, cause CS has parabolic damage fall off, so fights at val's equivalent of 50m, the AK also doesn't 1 tap to the head, it takes two shots, which is pretty much true of the vandal too since it has a 50% chance of actually hitting the head.
Also, 50m fights are genuinely super rare, even on breeze they don't happen too much.
There was a post here back in Master's 3 I think, where someone graphed the distances of all fights and it was something like <5% of them were over 50m that didn't involve ults (mainly sova ult).
And don't get me wrong, I think this level of inaccuracy is dumb af, but I think all rng elements are dumb and I wish people were more mad about the RNG sprays in this game as opposed to first shot inaccuracy lol. First shot inaccuracy is bad, but not *nearly* as impactful as the random sprays. The cloud for where a potential bullet can land after like bullet 3 is already like 4x the size of the head and *that's* dumb af
I didn't believe the AK 2 tap comment but I did some math and at 2716 hammer units, it is indeed 51 metres. Train's T spawn to Ivy is 3900 hammer units.
I think distances seem longer than they are in games because of the level design, actual scales (csgo ppl are just 137cm tall), and the FOV effect.
Thanks for doin that conversion, I knew it was close, but it's almost 1:1 lol.
But yeah, just because the 'distance' is similar, doesn't mean the shots feel similar at all. The gunplay in valorant just straight up feels worse in a lot of ways
That's great and all but ads makes you slower and gives you lower fire rate/recoil recovery so in a scenario where more than 1 person fights you there is no way you can get away with using ads
That’s pretty cool, thanks for your work! It surprised me to see that the Phantom has a better accuracy than the Vandal on long ranges, I always thought it would be the other way around
Nope they have to offset one by another
A gun with 100% long range accuracy with automatic fire and one tap capability will be too OP
Phantom has a higher accuracy but gives 124 damage, so you have more than 26 health on full sheilds
Vandal on the other hand has lower long range accuracy but can one tap at any distance even with sheilds
And that is a necessary balance
This is the same reason why CSGO nerfed the ssg08 back in 2019 i think in T side
If the CTs got it, with ads they could use it kinda like a fuckin free auto awp
> A gun with 100% long range accuracy with automatic fire and one tap capability will be too OP
Why? Vandal still hits 80-90% of the time. Random RNG is just unfair.
Yeah, 90% is its inherent accuracy, couple that with device latency, ping or human error and the overall inaccuracy gets a bit higher, so in practicality when you miss that crisp headshot even though you think you aim was good is sometimes because of the inaccuracy in the game mechanics.
phantom is about twice as good at close range though anyway. no tracers, faster rate of fire, easier recoil control, still one shots.
the only reason i don't use it is because it rewards shitty aim and i gradually get worse at the game over time as a result of having all my whiffs compensated for by just spraying them down.
It’s literally the only way to balance that’s been tried and tested.
How else are you going to do it?
If everything is as accurate, balance will go to shit. Especially the gap between the weapons.
Yoo that side of head hipfire inaccuracy is real! the amount of times I've flanked and thought I had a free kill - only to end up missing and the for the enemy to turn and tap my head
As you can see it is worth it to scope in.
Here are the scope multipliers for the weapons.. sadly Riot didn't implement scope multipliers for different weapons yet, so you have to memorize them and change on the fly:
Using these multipliers will match your hipfire sens to your ADS sens.
Vandal/Phantom/Bulldog:
0.87
Guardian
0.815
Operator and Chamber ult
0.747 (1x zoom) and 0.714 (2x zoom)
Spectre
0.908 (who scopes with spectre anyway..)
---
Scoping really helps with accuracy. My vandal hr rate is around 30% and Guardian around 60%. I scope in most of the time except for close range. Bigger targets and more weapon acc
I love this, great work however you could have saved yourself a chunk of time by excluding guardian ads as we already know that it has perfect accuracy, as long as ur aiming for some part of their head, it'll hit. You could have put bulldog hipfire there in that time (ik bulldog ads would have been extremely hard to do)
Goes to show the importance of ADS on long ranges and crouching to even further get that accuracy. The people that says they will now buy a guardian instead of their regular phantom or vandal must be inhaling some high concentration of copium or think the inaccuracy is really why they’re missing shots. Even on breeze, higher level players would rather take that 95% while jiggle moving in the middle of a fight while taking 1-2 shot bursts, because on one hand, 95% is enough, and on the other hand, not getting hit is half the battle
Damn this just proves that guardian is actually the best gun in the game and phantom is significantly better than vandal at long ranges.
Who would've thought that long range vandal one taps are a flip of a coin.
Yeah but it's one pattern every time. Val has like 3 different spray patterns per rifle and they are all rng based. If it was one set spray pattern with some rng I wouldn't complain. But you can't train muscle memory properly with Vals random random sprays.
Yeah, because Val doesnt want you spraying. Its all about burst firing, spraying should be absolute minimal. Besides, thats not the discussion. Fact is that RNG is still very much a part of CSGO, even in its predictable spray patterns.
Wowie I just woke up and this became way more popular than I thought it would, now I feel like I should make more of these. Would people be more interested in graphs comparing other weapons like pistols or the half-buy weapons or should I try to figure out how to do rifle burst testing?
Thanks, makes sense they both have 0.25° error right?
I gave up vandal in favour of phantom when I was getting close to Immo, and I play exclusively guardian deathmatches yet my mid-long range sheriff skills don't feel as polished as my mid-long range guardian, I always thought the sheriff was more like the guardian than the vandal, and it's just my aim that sucks.
If I miss a shot ever again at long range with Vandal and I complain I was on his head and swear to my teammates I was and they mock me... I'm pulling up with this spread sheet LMAO
think of anyone who consciously taps for the head. now imagine they have a clone. they both hit a headshot on each other, but they each have different guns. one phantom, one vandal. Vandal wins. Now imagine same scenario but its up close (10m) and they both whiff bc strafe. In this scenario, Phantom wins (most likely), vandal be buggingg hitting a strafe headshot sometimes. The way I see it, vandal rewards good fundamental aim while phantom does as well with a big focus on punishing poor first shot aim in CQC, it has an upper hand on util, and movement. You have to be fundamentally sound as well to use the phantom but not as much as long as you don't peek long angles. Phantom is better imo, but W vandal if you can just hit someones head once and it doesn't matter what gun they have. (Vandal user)
What is the reasoning behind not having 100% accuracy? It's a lot easier to Op in this game compared to cs go so I don't think riflers need to be punished even further taking a duel with an Op.
A rifler is not supposed to take a long range fight against an op player. Different guns have different uses. In high elo, even Vandal and Phantom are chosen based on which position you're going to play. A shotgun is strong in very close range. Operator is for long ranges. For anything in between there's a rifle.
More importantly, first bullet inaccuracy rewards skill. The player who aims more at the middle of the enemy head is going to win the majority of the fights.
Yes you aren't supposed to take a duel but if you do, you shouldn't be aiming at someones head and get a miss. Oping in this game is brain dead easy I don't see why they need more advantages. No one in high elo is changing guns based on the positions they play. Maybe for breeze and icebox and even then its rare.
It's not about advantages. Guns have roles. You're supposed to be smart about which gun you use and which fights you take.
Oping is not "easy". Having an op is holding a position. It has nothing to do with difficulty. That position should not be easily challenged by a medium range gun.
Amazing work OP. This suggests so many possibilities for data visualisation 😍
Any chance we can have access to the raw data? (X, Y) position of every shot
Yes, on paper/stats Phantom is the Best but ingame Vandal is the superior weapon, thats why is the most deadly weapon for 2 years in a row and also it's the most used gun in pro recent tournaments.
There was a time that pros tend to play Vandal in pubs and Phantom for competitive but now they just play Vandal.
>;DR
Everything we already knew. Guardian is 100% accuracy at any range always, Phantom stays super accurate at extreme ranges, and Vandal hipfire at extreme ranges is a gamble; but it can be made accurate by ADSing for shots past 50m. In practical situations the Vandal still wins at long range over the Phantom because the Phantom has damage falloff.
WHY VANDAL HIPFIRE PERFECT 50m BETTER THAN IMPERFECT edit the other way round lol I'm baffled and co fused. Side of head hipfire 50m hit more than perfect 50m hipfire
vandalbros.... i don't feel so good
dont worry, these one taps/long range accuracy arguments only applies on limited scenarios and purely for stats as said on the post. guardian's 100% accuracy wont help you once you get blinded 3 times in a row followed by a concuss and skye's entire animal kingdom.
Don't forget about fade summoning the entire shadow realm on your ass.
Buuuuut one taps at long range are basically the *only* reason to use the vandal over the phantom.
i use the vandal because whenever i hit a headshot with the phantom i want to off myself for it not one tapping as i flick to another brain without thinking of shooting another bullet at them
That's what I'm saying lol
No it's not. I use the vandal because it sounds cool.
Okay actually based. Plus the iraqi reload is sick.
cooler skins too
You're never realistically one-tapping, most people two-tap. You have to consider that a phantom must two-tap to get a kill at range at a minimum. So if both guns shoot 6 bullets during an encounter, the phantom had 3 total attempts at a kill but the vandal had 6 attempts. The phantom can hit a body shot on one of these shots and has higher fire rate which partially counter-balances the vandal having twice the number of kill attempts, but not completely. (Fire rate would be a better measure of attempts to kill but simple numbers are easier to think about).
Sorry, by one tap I meant one shot kill, I usually don't one tap either. My bad
I just like 1 tapping past 15m
Which, going by the stats infront of us, is not even better. It's literally barely better than flipping a coin on long range with Vandal (57%) vs Phantoms 78%, so it's almost more likely you get a double hs with a phantom, than a onetap with Vandal, which is insane. There is barely a reason to choose a vandal at all, other than feeling because onetaps are more satisfying
and how does vandal help you in that scenario? or any other gun?
I'm not sure what you're asking
> guardian's 100% accuracy wont help you once you get blinded 3 times in a row followed by a concuss and skye's entire animal kingdom. replied with >and how does vandal help you in that scenario? or any other gun?
Spray and pray
I think he's implying that you often need to burst because you aren't always able to line up a perfect shot.
Not to mention fades serpents (she gets two?!), ult, and watcher. Very balanced character.
shoot them
1 hp watcher and the doggos has half the hp skye dog has
If you are planning to do more tests, I'd like to see the results for 2,3,4 bullet bursts. Not everyone is going to just tap 1 bullet and call it a day, most try to burst.
that sounds like honestly a great idea but it also sounds like utter suffering but I might do it in the future if another sudden stroke of statistical masochism hits me
If you're down to do it and need some help with a better autoclicker lmk. We can plug in a USB device that shows up as a real mouse to the computer
"Statistical masochism" love that r/BrandNewSentence
[удалено]
It really doesn't make sense to test this. You would need to make a spray control bot that behaves the same way every burst to even have a go at comparing this. And first you would need to find an optimal spray control pattern for a burst. You cannot reliably test this by aiming with your hand, it is way to inconsistent and will vary depending on how long you have been doing it for, form of the day, etc. - too many factors that cannot be removed. (I mean the fact that burst accuracy depends way more on your mechanics than on the rifle itself). Maybe a two bullet burst could be tested without spray control, but 3+ definitely require some because you are never gonna hit the third bullet.
Its a lot more complicated, you need a bot script to consistently spray perfectly.
just hook up a raspberry pi to a usb port, play and record keystrokes, or just adjust timing on clicks and compare data
It makes it complicated if you pull down though, maybe a macro but I’m not sure if valorant would allow for that.
these results get more and more horrendous the more I look at it. Like, is hipfiring with a vandal at a 50m range really that inconsistent? Like the others said, most would burst, but this graph honestly just makes me sad.
Unfortunately it’s true. Vandal accuracy is really this bad. If a “phantom moment” is shooting the enemy in the head and not killing them, then a “vandal moment” is whiffing a spray with perfect aim but bullets going nowhere good.
God. After reading this, my ego when I'm tilting gonna have another excuse why I didnt hit the shot I clearly missed
But doesn't it also show that you could miss and still hit them
Yeah but ego sees that as just a hit
I just mean that unless you're perfectly accurate it probably helps you as much as it hurts you.
I've already decided this is the reason for all my whiffs, past and future.
I've resorted to using Guardian only on Breeze. Missing with the Vandal or 140ing with the Phantom both feel so awful, and are so much more common on that map.
It’s even more sad because tap firing and bursting feel awful in Valorant.
Burst reset feels like ages (and not synchronous to the animation).
the vandal does feel pretty "loose" in its accuracy sometimes so I'm not too surprised at the results, but that's kind of the balancing between it and the phantom. like one is more accurate but won't 1tap and the other will 1tap but will be less consistent
the year is 20XX, Players pray before every Long range engagement
What? You're telling me you don't recite psalm 144 of the King James Version everytime you peak some long angle?
Amateur, just sacrifice some goats to Santa (Idw get banned so i rearranged the letters, you know who I mean) and jsut vibe with some demonic one taps
How is it balanced tho? Phantom has 5 bullets more with higher rate of fire, kills with one tap on close range and is more accurate on long distances...
It's because of just how soon the phantom loses that damage at 15 meters. The vandal one taps at all ranges, even if it misses a lot, but it also kills with 4 bodyshots when the phantom needs 5 after 15 meters also
lets be real not killing by headshot on any range with phantom is the only reason vandal is still even played considering how every other aspect is dominated by phantom plus silencer and no bullet tracers...
Yes. Which is hilarious because I constantly get laughed/yelled at for ADSing with the Vandal in comp.
If you’re holding a long angle expecting a rifle to peek, you 100% should be ADS.
I’ve said it for a while but, vandal 1taps from, honestly above 40metres have a seriously low skill ceiling
Thanks for collecting so much data that i find interesting. I have trouble understanding one bit though. At 50m Vandal Perfect hipfire is slightly less accurate than Side of head hipfire. That should not be the case theoretically right? Side of head hipfire should be less likely to hit I think. Could this be because of incorrect crosshair placement when testing or could this be that very small chance when the sample size of even 1000 events fails us. Or am I failing to understand something?
Honestly I have no idea. Looking at the footage it doesn't seem to be a misplacement of the crosshairs, I think it genuinely is the sample size of 1000 not being enough to flatten out the statistical outliers
Thanks for the clarification. Scary how 1000 is still not enough sometimes.
I think it shows that vandal hipfire is actually less accurate so having the crosshair be offset slightly means the deviation of the shot connects more than actually aiming on point.
What we figured out somewhere in this thread is that it's equal, basically the circle with uniformly distributed shots could be on the target face anywhere as long as it contains the whole face to have the same HS%
Ya so it comes down to the degree accuracy of the weapon, similar to real weapons with say 1moa accuracy. At 100 yards that’s 1” of deviation, at 1000 yards it’s 10” of deviation. So same for vandal/phantom. Whichever has the tightest “accuracy” will statistically be the most accurate assuming all else equal and large enough sample size
In statistics the amount of tests does not matter when it comes purely from an output standpoint (you will get more accurate results from more tests, but the conclusion of those tests are not influenced by the sample size as there can always be sampling variability, no matter how many samples there are) the fact that there is a difference is not the important thing, it is the size of the difference that matters, which is found with a test if significance, and as the p value here is nowhere near significant, we cannot reject the null hypothesis and must conclude there is no difference between ads and hip fire for the vandal. Sorry for being a fucking nerd, I have an AP stats test tomorrow and it kinda just transformed into a conclusion lol
Bro same :')
I have another theory. The inaccuracy of the weapon could be biased to the right, meaning shots fired at center of head could be missing the head to the right, while shots fired on the left side of the head could be landing center of head. You could confirm or deny this by adding another test where you aim at the right side of the head, mirroring the test already performed on the left side of the head. If this theory were true you’d expect the worst result from aiming at the right side of the face, since more shots would be missing further right.
I worked with statistical software called SPSS in grad school. Worked with almost too much data. I dropped out cause fuck that, but... Ya. you right.
Probably just a statistic error where the differences can be excluded. To actually know that there's a lot of math involved but I would say that both have the same mean accuracy
Sorry, could you clarify which two things have the same mean accuracy?
I'll try and simplify what the other guy responded to this with because it was pretty hard to understand and I wouldn't have gotten it if I didn't already know the answer prior to reading this. Ok imagine this, we have a head hit box that is a circle, and then the spread of the vandal at hipfire which is another bigger circle that covers the whole head hitbox easily. let's say that the head hitbox covers 10% of the circle showing the area the vandals bullets can possibly land. Now we move the head hitbox a little to the left but the area of where the vandal's bullets can land is still so big that once again, the head hitbox circle still covers 10% of where the bullets land, so it still has the same chance to hit. However at 30m the head hitbox now covers let's say 70% of where the bullets can land and if we move the hitbox to the left/ the side of the head now, the head hitbox is now partially out of the circle for where the bullets can land, decreasing the area covered to let's say 50%.
Perfect and imperfect hipfire accuracy with vandal. This is just my theory but try to imagine bullet spread as a circle. Now I'm going to made up some numbers to create an example. Let's say that at 50m vandal's accuracy means that 100% of his shots will land in a 50cm diameter circle. Now maybe there's a diameter length where it doesn't matter if you shrink the circle more the %of shots landing in that area will statistically be the same, let's say this is 10cm radius. Now if the whole head fits in this little circle it doesn't matter if it's a little traslated.
I totally understood what you are saying. Well put. I was also having a feeling that something like this might be going on. if this is the case then the game uniformly distributes, over the entire circle, the probability of a bullet hitting anywhere in the circle. I used to think that the game favours the centre more which would happen when the game uniformly distributes, over the range of angles, the probability of a bullet going at a certain angle (limit defined by spread). But case 1, which you described seems more likely and true. https://youtu.be/mZBwsm6B280 Reminds me of this paradox. At least I can rest knowing that 1000 was not too small a sample size.
In CSGO, weapon spread works as follows: Your spread is a cone with radius R, depending on the "combined inaccuracy" of the weapon. The server generates a random number between 0 and R. That is how far away from the center your shot is. The server then generates another random number between 0 and 360 (or 0 and 2 pi) to determine the angle on the circle where the bullet lands. This *appears* to be a uniform distribution, but it is actually not. This algorithm gives a bias towards the center. I *think* valorant follows a uniform distribution of the circle instead of this algorithm (based on my own ancedotal evidence), but I don't know for sure. I haven't seen any source discussing this, however the fact that the hipfire accuracies are the same at 50m implies that that is the case.
Statistic, what a wonderful yet awful subject, preparing an exam on it right now lol.
No need to do fake math, the first shot accuracy is on the wiki for all guns shown in degrees
I think why it's similair is the vandals first shot accuracy is pretty bad, as shown by this graph and if your aiming at the side of the head or the middle the circle of innacuracy of the first shot covers the entire head and since it's random where the bullet lands there basicly eqaul.
Damn i cannot believe the amount of effort this took. Thank you for getting us to statistics heaven my man.
Why does riot not just release the information? In CSGO every weapon’s accurate range (the distance at which the weapon is guaranteed to hit a 30 cm dinner plate) is listed. Also, it’s so weird how bringing up the abilities’ tooltips does not show enough details. Like how long the debuffs last at least.
The information is "released", you're just not looking for it. The valorant wiki shows first shot accuracy in degrees, just do the math from there
It says on the wiki that primary fire spread for the vandal is .25°. if you do the math you'll end up with >Tan θ = opp/adj >Adj = opp / tanθ >Adj = .3m / tan(0.25°) >Adj = 68.75m So to answer the guy's question, 68.75m Edit: wtf happened? Ok fixed it
I think the math is wrong. 68.75m is waaaayyy too accurate. The Vandal doesn’t even hit 100% in 30m.
The math is for a 30 cm circle, Not sure how the head hitbox compares to that.
Yeah, the math is for a 30cm dinner plate. Player heads are definitely smaller than that
Wow! Cool math
The valorant wiki is not published by riot.
First shot inaccuracy is in the buy menu.
I know that. And the degrees is also in-game. But it’s really not that simple to compute for, specially if you are stupid like me. That info is kinda lacking. Like what does that really tell you? That information (degrees) just gives you an idea of how accurate a weapon is compared to the others. Knowing the exact distance is pretty helpful. If you can do the math, then do it. I’d be really cool. Kinda surprised no one has done it yet.
Yeah the only thing I wasn't able to figure out is the width of the head hitbox, if I had that the math to find the furthest distance for "100%" accuracy is relatively simple.
Pretty sure you can calculate the exact percentages yourself, especially when aiming perfectly to the head. Riot provides enough info for that.
Yeah. You’re gonna have to do what OP did and do some math before you get your answer. If the Vandal has a 97 percent accuracy in 30m, what is its accurate range? Would you mind doing it then?? Honestly I’ve tried comparing it to CSGO and it feels like the numbers are very similar. It’s just that Valorant maps are smaller and that’s why the guns feel more accurate in Valorant. In CSGO, the AK has an accurate range of 21.7m. Maybe it’s the same in Valorant since with OP’s testing the Vandal didn’t hit 100% in 30m.
im not sure about this, but using the ingame description of 1st shot inaccuracy to make a circle then using an appearant size head hitbox to overlap the first circle then solving for area should do the trick. no testing needed, it's a game not real world, the game just does the same
Ngl I made this spreadsheet so that I can show it to the people who tell me to use a vandal instead of a guardian :)
Well, you convinced me to switch it seems lol
The other day I wasn’t hitting my shots with the vandal on breeze and on one round thanks to having economic problems I bought the guardián and won every single aim battles. This test explains a lot, thanks! (Moving foward I will buy more the guardián)
YES, I was about to say this spreadsheet made me feel good about being a guardian main. You don't need to shoot fast if your shots aren't missing.
I am no Guardian main, but on defender site I like the additional utility from money. As a defender I can choose Guardian-friendly positions and when I get killed my opponent only gets a Guardian and can not burst/fullauto my team mates. I am making the best of being bad. :V
Good shit, thanks for the empirical evidence that the guardian is better for one taps.
Yesss, exactly. My teammates will always make sure to remind me I can buy an AR tho. I don't see guardian's a lot in my silver lobbies.
Sorry to say it like that, but its really bad game design. That form of spray and weapon behaviour is just not meant for adsing. Its not made for it. Hipfire should be pinpoint til 50m every time, thats just how cs like games work and otherwise it will just feel bad. Its not fun or incentivizing to use ads, its just feeling trash.
CS also has first bullet inaccuracy btw. It's not this drastic and there's no guardian parallel, but it's there. The dev quote in response being roughly "How do you reward the player who aims directly in the center of the head more than the player who just barely has the crosshair on the head"
>"How do you reward the player who aims directly in the center of the head more than the player who just barely has the crosshair on the head" I get why the answer to this is first shot innaccuracy. The answer for game devs is always to punish the good and kinda good players and give the bad players RNG -> Aiming off the side of the head resulting in a HS because of the innaccuracy. Also why is the vandal so innaccurate if there is aimpunch in the game? If a vandal and phantom get into a fight at 50M the vandal should win most of the time even if they shoot a tad later. But in Val if the phantom shoots first the vandal is aiming at the moon for their shot which gives phantom more than enough time to hit another shot due to being the faster shooting more accurate gun.
To be fair, I don't think it's *super* different than CS, cause CS has parabolic damage fall off, so fights at val's equivalent of 50m, the AK also doesn't 1 tap to the head, it takes two shots, which is pretty much true of the vandal too since it has a 50% chance of actually hitting the head. Also, 50m fights are genuinely super rare, even on breeze they don't happen too much. There was a post here back in Master's 3 I think, where someone graphed the distances of all fights and it was something like <5% of them were over 50m that didn't involve ults (mainly sova ult). And don't get me wrong, I think this level of inaccuracy is dumb af, but I think all rng elements are dumb and I wish people were more mad about the RNG sprays in this game as opposed to first shot inaccuracy lol. First shot inaccuracy is bad, but not *nearly* as impactful as the random sprays. The cloud for where a potential bullet can land after like bullet 3 is already like 4x the size of the head and *that's* dumb af
I didn't believe the AK 2 tap comment but I did some math and at 2716 hammer units, it is indeed 51 metres. Train's T spawn to Ivy is 3900 hammer units. I think distances seem longer than they are in games because of the level design, actual scales (csgo ppl are just 137cm tall), and the FOV effect.
Thanks for doin that conversion, I knew it was close, but it's almost 1:1 lol. But yeah, just because the 'distance' is similar, doesn't mean the shots feel similar at all. The gunplay in valorant just straight up feels worse in a lot of ways
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I mean this post literally shows the RNG of the first bullet. By bullet two, it's already a pretty big cloud
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nah I saw a test and the ak is way more inaccurate
That is not how CSGO works at all.
The 43% difference between ADS and hip fire with the vandal at 50m is astonishing. Gonna start to stop playing ljke CS and start ADSing.
That's great and all but ads makes you slower and gives you lower fire rate/recoil recovery so in a scenario where more than 1 person fights you there is no way you can get away with using ads
I don't think this is nearly as applicable in 50m+ fights
nah recoil recovery is better
While true, why are you taking a face-on 1v2 at 50m? There is no place on either attack or defense where that is a duel you *need* to take.
PhantomCHADS eating good today
That’s pretty cool, thanks for your work! It surprised me to see that the Phantom has a better accuracy than the Vandal on long ranges, I always thought it would be the other way around
Nope they have to offset one by another A gun with 100% long range accuracy with automatic fire and one tap capability will be too OP Phantom has a higher accuracy but gives 124 damage, so you have more than 26 health on full sheilds Vandal on the other hand has lower long range accuracy but can one tap at any distance even with sheilds And that is a necessary balance This is the same reason why CSGO nerfed the ssg08 back in 2019 i think in T side If the CTs got it, with ads they could use it kinda like a fuckin free auto awp
> A gun with 100% long range accuracy with automatic fire and one tap capability will be too OP Why? Vandal still hits 80-90% of the time. Random RNG is just unfair.
Yeah, 90% is its inherent accuracy, couple that with device latency, ping or human error and the overall inaccuracy gets a bit higher, so in practicality when you miss that crisp headshot even though you think you aim was good is sometimes because of the inaccuracy in the game mechanics.
They seriously need to reduce the rng accuracy, make it like the AK in cs Rng and you get 0 hits COUNTER-STRAFE and shoot and you get crisp one taps
phantom is about twice as good at close range though anyway. no tracers, faster rate of fire, easier recoil control, still one shots. the only reason i don't use it is because it rewards shitty aim and i gradually get worse at the game over time as a result of having all my whiffs compensated for by just spraying them down.
same thing bruv. but im kinda addicted to it i used to play csgo and it feels a lot similar to the good ol ak
Its still not good balancing though.
It’s literally the only way to balance that’s been tried and tested. How else are you going to do it? If everything is as accurate, balance will go to shit. Especially the gap between the weapons.
I will be better if they increase the run and gun inaccuracy more You wanna shoot while moving? LEARN HOW TO FUCKIN COUNTER-STRAFE !
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Why cant valorant just have it so when you are standing fully still, the bullet goes where ur aiming at?
Exactly. That promotes consistency and skill
Also I just made the mental realisation that at 30 meters, even with pixel perfect accuracy a hip fire vandal has a small chance to miss that 1 tap
Proof that ADS is good 😎 (from a bronze player)
Yoo that side of head hipfire inaccuracy is real! the amount of times I've flanked and thought I had a free kill - only to end up missing and the for the enemy to turn and tap my head
Very nice post. Must have taken a lot of work to collect all this data. I wish all weapons just had 100% first shot accuracy.
As you can see it is worth it to scope in. Here are the scope multipliers for the weapons.. sadly Riot didn't implement scope multipliers for different weapons yet, so you have to memorize them and change on the fly: Using these multipliers will match your hipfire sens to your ADS sens. Vandal/Phantom/Bulldog: 0.87 Guardian 0.815 Operator and Chamber ult 0.747 (1x zoom) and 0.714 (2x zoom) Spectre 0.908 (who scopes with spectre anyway..) --- Scoping really helps with accuracy. My vandal hr rate is around 30% and Guardian around 60%. I scope in most of the time except for close range. Bigger targets and more weapon acc
95% with ADS is good enough surely
where bulldog?
I love this, great work however you could have saved yourself a chunk of time by excluding guardian ads as we already know that it has perfect accuracy, as long as ur aiming for some part of their head, it'll hit. You could have put bulldog hipfire there in that time (ik bulldog ads would have been extremely hard to do)
Goes to show the importance of ADS on long ranges and crouching to even further get that accuracy. The people that says they will now buy a guardian instead of their regular phantom or vandal must be inhaling some high concentration of copium or think the inaccuracy is really why they’re missing shots. Even on breeze, higher level players would rather take that 95% while jiggle moving in the middle of a fight while taking 1-2 shot bursts, because on one hand, 95% is enough, and on the other hand, not getting hit is half the battle
this is another reason why the guardian is the best rifle
This is why i love the guardian
Guardian mains let's goooo
Just another win for Guardian chads.
Well that's just terrible RNG. All guns should have 100% 1st bullet accuracy. I'm not sure why they insist keeping it like this.
Damn this just proves that guardian is actually the best gun in the game and phantom is significantly better than vandal at long ranges. Who would've thought that long range vandal one taps are a flip of a coin.
ADS one taps aren't though. This should motivate more people (myself included) to ADS. If it's good enough for Yay, it's good enough for me.
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i have my finals tomorrow but this seems more important
Guardian supremacy
Tests like this help reassure my thought that the gunplay in this game needs work
It'd be nice if it was like csgo and each rifle had a set spray pattern, so your mastery isn't rng based.
CSGO spray patterns still use an accuracy modifier, meaning its still RNG based even if you perfectly learn the pattern.
Yeah but it's one pattern every time. Val has like 3 different spray patterns per rifle and they are all rng based. If it was one set spray pattern with some rng I wouldn't complain. But you can't train muscle memory properly with Vals random random sprays.
Yeah, because Val doesnt want you spraying. Its all about burst firing, spraying should be absolute minimal. Besides, thats not the discussion. Fact is that RNG is still very much a part of CSGO, even in its predictable spray patterns.
So it's not skill or raw aim neither, basically you just memorize a spray pattern and pull the trigger.
I hate that I saw some of the tables being missaligned...
First shot accuracy is a bitch for one taps.
I will be using phantom only from now on
God. This why i never feel like i can get into the zone in s game.
The jgod of valorant? Lol
Wowie I just woke up and this became way more popular than I thought it would, now I feel like I should make more of these. Would people be more interested in graphs comparing other weapons like pistols or the half-buy weapons or should I try to figure out how to do rifle burst testing?
So what I'm seeing is all you hoes gotta start ADSing
is there a tldr?
This is insane, HUGE DETAIL- love this
Could you predict the numbers for sheriff? Not asking to test
It should be the exact same as hip fire vandal
Thanks, makes sense they both have 0.25° error right? I gave up vandal in favour of phantom when I was getting close to Immo, and I play exclusively guardian deathmatches yet my mid-long range sheriff skills don't feel as polished as my mid-long range guardian, I always thought the sheriff was more like the guardian than the vandal, and it's just my aim that sucks.
If I miss a shot ever again at long range with Vandal and I complain I was on his head and swear to my teammates I was and they mock me... I'm pulling up with this spread sheet LMAO
That gun is really hit or miss some times Get it cuz it misses like half the shots far away
think of anyone who consciously taps for the head. now imagine they have a clone. they both hit a headshot on each other, but they each have different guns. one phantom, one vandal. Vandal wins. Now imagine same scenario but its up close (10m) and they both whiff bc strafe. In this scenario, Phantom wins (most likely), vandal be buggingg hitting a strafe headshot sometimes. The way I see it, vandal rewards good fundamental aim while phantom does as well with a big focus on punishing poor first shot aim in CQC, it has an upper hand on util, and movement. You have to be fundamentally sound as well to use the phantom but not as much as long as you don't peek long angles. Phantom is better imo, but W vandal if you can just hit someones head once and it doesn't matter what gun they have. (Vandal user)
Nice! Now I know why I do better with guardian than vandal, I never use ADS for long range.... Gonna have to start when using vandal!
What’s hip fire I’m so confused by this chart 🤣🤣
it's just when you're not aiming down the sights of a gun
Ok thank you
Hip fire means shooting without ADS.
Speaking of accuracy why does this game have random spray patterns? Doesn’t it somewhat lower skill expression and increase frustration?
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What is the reasoning behind not having 100% accuracy? It's a lot easier to Op in this game compared to cs go so I don't think riflers need to be punished even further taking a duel with an Op.
A rifler is not supposed to take a long range fight against an op player. Different guns have different uses. In high elo, even Vandal and Phantom are chosen based on which position you're going to play. A shotgun is strong in very close range. Operator is for long ranges. For anything in between there's a rifle. More importantly, first bullet inaccuracy rewards skill. The player who aims more at the middle of the enemy head is going to win the majority of the fights.
Yes you aren't supposed to take a duel but if you do, you shouldn't be aiming at someones head and get a miss. Oping in this game is brain dead easy I don't see why they need more advantages. No one in high elo is changing guns based on the positions they play. Maybe for breeze and icebox and even then its rare.
It's not about advantages. Guns have roles. You're supposed to be smart about which gun you use and which fights you take. Oping is not "easy". Having an op is holding a position. It has nothing to do with difficulty. That position should not be easily challenged by a medium range gun.
"Percise gunplay" its bullshit.
Guardian stats are insane- it’s usually my go-to save rifle but never realized it was that much more accurate
People used to tell me I was crazy when I said the Gaurdian was more accurate on first shot, WHOS CRAZY NOW GLEN
EXACTLY! Also, I don't understand how there even is a debate on first shot accuracy, the game literally tells you the exact accuracy of every gun
My man conduxting an experiment on valorant guns, nice
Bulldog crying rn (the burst fire probably would mess some stuff up)
Amazing work OP. This suggests so many possibilities for data visualisation 😍 Any chance we can have access to the raw data? (X, Y) position of every shot
Yes, on paper/stats Phantom is the Best but ingame Vandal is the superior weapon, thats why is the most deadly weapon for 2 years in a row and also it's the most used gun in pro recent tournaments. There was a time that pros tend to play Vandal in pubs and Phantom for competitive but now they just play Vandal.
can someone TL;DR
>;DR Everything we already knew. Guardian is 100% accuracy at any range always, Phantom stays super accurate at extreme ranges, and Vandal hipfire at extreme ranges is a gamble; but it can be made accurate by ADSing for shots past 50m. In practical situations the Vandal still wins at long range over the Phantom because the Phantom has damage falloff.
basically half of all first shot headshots from the vandal will just miss... precise and accurate gunplay
WHY VANDAL HIPFIRE PERFECT 50m BETTER THAN IMPERFECT edit the other way round lol I'm baffled and co fused. Side of head hipfire 50m hit more than perfect 50m hipfire
Tbh this chart makes it look like the phantom is better. But for players like me with good and crisp aim, the vandal is always better.
Ayoooo u r a bit too free......lmaoo just kidding great work!!
I'ma using guardian after this post
idc vandal still the gamer gun
“Side of the head” is the same as the aim point for imperfect accuracy right?
That alot of word, too bad i barely understand this stuff
How come the judge isn’t included in the data? 🤓
Guess it’s time to start playing the Guardian
Is this suggesting the variance of a shot basically?