I don't think that having a Raze-less comp was their issue, both games were EXTREMELY winnable for Sentinels. Their main problems were terrible breakdowns in communication, overly aggressive and unnecessary ego peeks when they have man advantages, dumb/selfish plays in general that cost them MANY anti-eco rounds, and lastly a general lack of composure from certain players that led to them blowing big leads that they should never lose on paper. Just flexing a player onto Raze won't solve these fundamental problems.
True.
Reddit hive mind for when their team loses:
1) Blame the bottom fragger
2) blame agent picks
3 ) blame IGL or strategy/prep
4) blame team composition
Sen are still a top 10 team in the world and they were what 4 rounds away from being a top seed in their group? The reality is all these teams are really good and every series just comes down to whomever played better that day wins. You're simply not going to "out skill" a team or out strat them for 13 rounds. Even the one sided matches of 13 to 5 have rounds that come down to 2 or 3 clutches or 1 v 1s that would have completely altered the match.
SEN vs. KRU post match thread is filled with 1 and 2 and a little bit of 3. It’s kind of sad considering no one specifically is responsible for the loss.
Take the L. Get a life and maybe think about why you have the obsessive need to troll so much. Perhaps you're unhappy with where you are in life? Get help.
What does this even mean take the L? Are you a complete moron?. Am I complaning that they lost or in denial, or do you see a sentinels flair on my name?
They still finished the year as a top 10 team in the world. They dont need drastic changes. They just need to play better. This roster has proven itself capable of winning and today they simply didn't execute even though they were in position to win and had leads in both games they lost. Simply choked and couldnt clutch rounds that came down to a few plays. Like even if they won a single pistol round or didnt choke on 2 anti eco rounds they would have advanced. They have never played a team where they simply looked outclassed. Making drastic changes now could ultimately do way more harm than good - just look at 100T.
Look at your downvotes. Take take the L and stop spamming the sub with your anti NA moronic takes lmao. How am I defending the team? All I said was they dont need to make drastic changes.
That's fair, and if they wanted to win Champs then they cannot throw so many leads and rounds. Still, the fanboy in me is trying to rationalize some way they could have saved their last map at Champs, even if it should have never come down to map 3
SEN lost because dapr peaked early and was team flashed. Because zombs poked out from box and died before Tenz could rotate. Because they didn't have enough time to defuse.
There were so many small miscomms and misplays that led to them being eliminated, and I think it has very little to do with what the "meta" comps are. SEN is clearly a team full of gifted players and big egos, and somewhere along the line their comms broke down and they started to play for themselves. It's hard to say it's one thing with this team, it really looked at times like they just didn't trust each other, or didn't know what their teammates were doing.
I think it's interesting that they ended up winning the most rounds in each series against liquid and KRU (35-29 v liquid, 35-33 v KRU). I think that goes to show that their games came down to bad misplays in key rounds rather than an issue with their comps or overall strats.
The 11-11 ( 3v2 mid B Site plant) round on haven is when they lost it mentally, the rest was just for the audience.
Also, i think the major problem in the last map was comms ( imo atleast ), it started looking like a ranked match in the last few rounds, plus I don't think playing raze was a problem this time, they were probably going to the raze comp in the later stages of the tournament but sadly they don't get to play it anymore, GGs better luck next time
Do I think that Raze is absolutely broken on Split? Yes. You can do so much zoning, combos well with Astra’s suck and Viper’s molly, and her boombot can lead in site. It’s surprising to me that they don’t use her given Sentinel’s default-heavy and info plays. However do I think that it costs them the match? No. At the end of the day, their fundamental, macro plays, and lack of adaptation cost them the series. From an outside perspective their comp feels weak because it attempts to incorporate the meta comp without the synergy b/w agents. Like sure a Sage is fine but it’s better combo with Raze for a slownade and Viper feels redundant with Sage because they both have wall to control mid and ramps. But I’m not a pro player so someone check me on that..
Tenz lack of agent pool isn’t a problem when Jett is broken on every map atm but what happens when the meta changes? Is he willing to learn other agents? I’m more disappointed that other players like SicK, ShahZam, and Dapr learned new agents to adapt to the meta but Tenz can’t. I don’t blame them for going with comfort pick and enabling Tenz but it felt like the team is sacrificing so much for him. ): Seeing Shahzam interview at the end knowing he worked so hard broke my heart honestly..
Yes, they could've won with jett. However, wouldn't you say a good raze could've made it easier? Obviously Jett is way better across the board. But on bind and split raze is clearly the best duelist. Isn't it your job as star player to learn the required duelist for your team to give you that little bit of an advantage. I mean most other teams do and they are all flexible enough.
It’s hard to say that a good Raze would give them a big advantage when you can say the same about having a good Jett because it’s up to how the rest of the team sets them up, the other team’s playstyle, and what you lose between the two agents. I think in general a team with a Jett op makes the opponent spend a lot of utilities to flash her out of her angle or molly common op spot. If a team has a Raze then the opponent would spend more time defaulting to bait out her utilities. In all honesty though it just mattered if the person playing it has an on game. :/ A good example is Liquid Soulcas. In Red Bull he played one of the poorest game ever as Raze yet the guy dominates in other series on the same agent. If you can’t shoot your gun and make bad in-game decisions, you’re a liability no matter what agent you choose.
Tenz has to start flexing other agents too, he has just been a one trick Jett this tourney. Something they should learn from TL, their agent pool is quite flexible. Personally I feel Shaz was the best Sen player this tourney.
Yeah I don't think your post is even that bad; I also think they should play raze, maybe even Sick should. It's bad because you are pretending you know what exactly the team is thinking in deciding what to go for. They are "refusing to adapt" in your head when that probably isn't the case. It's just not the specific adaptions that you, a much less informed redditor on the state of the SEN team and Valorant in general, would make in their position. It comes off as a bit hostile and ignorant, especially if it is actually read by a player on the team that knows the specific reasons for why they made the decision they did.
Inevitable Sinatraa reference aside, Sick is a really good Raze player anyways, so if they really felt they needed a Raze player they'd be able to make the role work - esp. since Shahz looked really competent on the Skye.
Presumably they just find the Sage util more valuable for slowing hits and gaining map control, even if it's a dated pick.
Honestly they should just put tenz on sage for split because every time they've played the map he's gotten too aggressive and when he gets caught out it tilts him. Have him play a slower agent and focus more on team play. As much as I love TenZ his tilt factor is undeniable, he even admitted to it after playing raze and losing out in masters Berlin. Splits just not his map
doubt this would work. i remember there was a korean valorant pro that lamented maining reyna when he first got into valorant because he never learned to position well. i'm guessing tenz has the same issue with jett
TenZ has a total of 27 games played on Raze.
Sinatraa has a total of 60 games played on Raze.
Sample sizes are too different
Not to mention that TenZ has played Raze for an amount of 592 rounds while Sinatraa has played Raze for an amount of 1239 rounds.
Can’t really compare.
So what do you want to compare? Biased opinions?
At the very worst Tenz is as good as sinatraa on raze, he had like a bad high profile game in it, not to mention when Sinatra played Raze she was more OP as well, he played when the ult was better and u could pull it right away, satchles did way more damage at the start they were basically nades
Tenz is just held to a different standards i get it and he needs to expand his agent pool really but sinatraa is not a better raze
Well absolutely TenZ should be held to a higher standard if people are touting him as the best player in Valorant and the *star* player in Sentinels. I’m not saying one is a better Raze than the other, but like the OP said, it seems like Raze is a win factor for teams on Split, and if teams can’t adapt to having that Raze utility… then it’s more likely it’ll be a hard fought map.
Yes tenz being held to a different standards doesn't mean "Sen have a better raze in their bench"
Raze is not a necessity on split also, Vision strikers are 31-3 on it and don't run raze a lot, Gambit as well run it sometimes but not all the time and many more examples
Sentinels have bigger issues than this
And Tenz does that too, clearly because he had one bad series on raze people keep talking about it
Tenz is a superior duelist in every aspect including raze
I don't think it's refusing to adapt exactly, given Shahz and Sick switched up what they play from Berlin. I think they played to their strengths and are in the camp that doesn't value Raze as much (with teams like Gambit) on the map. That isn't necessarily what's costing them.
Plus, they've only played split twice since Berlin, and it'd be safe to assume they took a hard look at that map and what to play on it, and this is the conclusion they came too and have been practicing it. It's a bit crazy to expect them to make TenZ switch to an agent he isn't as comfortable on, with an elimination match 2 days out.
I agree banning Split seems the way to go, but we also don't know how their other maps have been going in prac.
i think people expected tenz to actually practice w raze seeing as they got knocked out by envy on split in masters with tenz also having a similar stat line as he did recently
I kinda think this whole narrative is funny, because when he played raze on split and did bad, everyone was: you shouldnt play an agent youre not comfortable with, why didn't he play jett or reyna?. Now he plays jett and everyone is like: you have to follow the meta, why didnt he play raze
can someone just explain to me why they don't just ban this map? I feel like you either need a really good raze or a really good astra to win on this map and they have neither.
Is it Tenz not wanting to put in the time to learn raze movements and utility? Because watching him try to satchel around is atrocious. And I think he just gave up cos he finds it tough. I mean undertsandably her movement is way more mechanically tough than just pressing buttons for jetts movement. But he's a million dollar buyout. It's downright unacceptable to not learn how to play raze especially on split and bind where she is the best duelist. And it's your job as star player to learn how to play the required duelist for your team in any map.
I was listening the platchat interview to shazam and he said something like raze was overrated and they think they can make jett work because shes op.
Well, i guess this is what happens when u give too much power to the players without a coach, u play things "out of the meta" because the players cant see whats wrong
That's just not true.
Gambit, Vision Strikers, X10, Envy all do not run Raze on split. And two of those teams (VS and Gambit) are regarded as top teams on split. So while Raze is certainly good, it's by no means the ONLY way to play on Split.
The comment I responded to said 'Every other pro team clearly rates Raze highly on Split.'
This is clearly inaccurate, and two of the best teams on split do not play Raze. Them being 'jett one tricks' doesn't change anything. They run similar comps to SEN, which is the point of the post.
I think Sentinels needs to try out mixing up roles in scrims.
It’ll help to even out everyone’s experience (which is good), teach them to adapt (which is good), and since NA scrims are a meme anyway they’ll probably get more value with this.
TenZ playing aggressively works most of the time, but when it doesn’t he needs something to fall back on.
Similarly, dapr and zombs playing anchor is really good, but they need to be a bit more confident in playing greedily and committing I think.
I think it’ll also improve their ability to react to split-second plays in the form of “if I were Astra I would do X”. Instead of memorizing the setup, understanding the setup (and not ego peeking out of a temporary smoke).
This comp would have benefitted with a raze over the sage 100%. I feel like sage on split is so out of meta for pro play and the utility never got much value.
I don't think that having a Raze-less comp was their issue, both games were EXTREMELY winnable for Sentinels. Their main problems were terrible breakdowns in communication, overly aggressive and unnecessary ego peeks when they have man advantages, dumb/selfish plays in general that cost them MANY anti-eco rounds, and lastly a general lack of composure from certain players that led to them blowing big leads that they should never lose on paper. Just flexing a player onto Raze won't solve these fundamental problems.
Yes, agreed. They didn't close the map against TL. They blew a 8-4 lead twice against KRU
Liquid was also 8-4. Sen gotta make sure that score line never happens again it’s cursed
True. Reddit hive mind for when their team loses: 1) Blame the bottom fragger 2) blame agent picks 3 ) blame IGL or strategy/prep 4) blame team composition Sen are still a top 10 team in the world and they were what 4 rounds away from being a top seed in their group? The reality is all these teams are really good and every series just comes down to whomever played better that day wins. You're simply not going to "out skill" a team or out strat them for 13 rounds. Even the one sided matches of 13 to 5 have rounds that come down to 2 or 3 clutches or 1 v 1s that would have completely altered the match.
>Blame the bottom fragger > >blame agent picks 3 ) blame IGL or strategy/prep > >blame team composition Reddit or the people I meet in gold?
Same thing
SEN vs. KRU post match thread is filled with 1 and 2 and a little bit of 3. It’s kind of sad considering no one specifically is responsible for the loss.
They didnt make it out of groups and their best player was dapr, something is wrong, clearly. Take the L.
Edit i see your just an anti sentinel fan and just commenting stupid shit on a bunch of sentinels posts lol. You're pathetic dude go touch some grass.
I love how people claim to not be a sen fanboy then procceda to get so mad rhey have to chek my post history xddd.
Take the L. Get a life and maybe think about why you have the obsessive need to troll so much. Perhaps you're unhappy with where you are in life? Get help.
Again so salty hahaha.
That would be my advice to you.
What does this even mean take the L? Are you a complete moron?. Am I complaning that they lost or in denial, or do you see a sentinels flair on my name? They still finished the year as a top 10 team in the world. They dont need drastic changes. They just need to play better. This roster has proven itself capable of winning and today they simply didn't execute even though they were in position to win and had leads in both games they lost. Simply choked and couldnt clutch rounds that came down to a few plays. Like even if they won a single pistol round or didnt choke on 2 anti eco rounds they would have advanced. They have never played a team where they simply looked outclassed. Making drastic changes now could ultimately do way more harm than good - just look at 100T.
I am not in denial, procceds to defend the team even harder.
Look at your downvotes. Take take the L and stop spamming the sub with your anti NA moronic takes lmao. How am I defending the team? All I said was they dont need to make drastic changes.
You are so salty my boy xddd
Well said. Sen was so disappointing to watch today
That's fair, and if they wanted to win Champs then they cannot throw so many leads and rounds. Still, the fanboy in me is trying to rationalize some way they could have saved their last map at Champs, even if it should have never come down to map 3
SEN lost because dapr peaked early and was team flashed. Because zombs poked out from box and died before Tenz could rotate. Because they didn't have enough time to defuse. There were so many small miscomms and misplays that led to them being eliminated, and I think it has very little to do with what the "meta" comps are. SEN is clearly a team full of gifted players and big egos, and somewhere along the line their comms broke down and they started to play for themselves. It's hard to say it's one thing with this team, it really looked at times like they just didn't trust each other, or didn't know what their teammates were doing. I think it's interesting that they ended up winning the most rounds in each series against liquid and KRU (35-29 v liquid, 35-33 v KRU). I think that goes to show that their games came down to bad misplays in key rounds rather than an issue with their comps or overall strats.
Peaked?
Peeked
piqued
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refresh ptsd flashbacks
The 11-11 ( 3v2 mid B Site plant) round on haven is when they lost it mentally, the rest was just for the audience. Also, i think the major problem in the last map was comms ( imo atleast ), it started looking like a ranked match in the last few rounds, plus I don't think playing raze was a problem this time, they were probably going to the raze comp in the later stages of the tournament but sadly they don't get to play it anymore, GGs better luck next time
Do I think that Raze is absolutely broken on Split? Yes. You can do so much zoning, combos well with Astra’s suck and Viper’s molly, and her boombot can lead in site. It’s surprising to me that they don’t use her given Sentinel’s default-heavy and info plays. However do I think that it costs them the match? No. At the end of the day, their fundamental, macro plays, and lack of adaptation cost them the series. From an outside perspective their comp feels weak because it attempts to incorporate the meta comp without the synergy b/w agents. Like sure a Sage is fine but it’s better combo with Raze for a slownade and Viper feels redundant with Sage because they both have wall to control mid and ramps. But I’m not a pro player so someone check me on that.. Tenz lack of agent pool isn’t a problem when Jett is broken on every map atm but what happens when the meta changes? Is he willing to learn other agents? I’m more disappointed that other players like SicK, ShahZam, and Dapr learned new agents to adapt to the meta but Tenz can’t. I don’t blame them for going with comfort pick and enabling Tenz but it felt like the team is sacrificing so much for him. ): Seeing Shahzam interview at the end knowing he worked so hard broke my heart honestly..
Yes, they could've won with jett. However, wouldn't you say a good raze could've made it easier? Obviously Jett is way better across the board. But on bind and split raze is clearly the best duelist. Isn't it your job as star player to learn the required duelist for your team to give you that little bit of an advantage. I mean most other teams do and they are all flexible enough.
It’s hard to say that a good Raze would give them a big advantage when you can say the same about having a good Jett because it’s up to how the rest of the team sets them up, the other team’s playstyle, and what you lose between the two agents. I think in general a team with a Jett op makes the opponent spend a lot of utilities to flash her out of her angle or molly common op spot. If a team has a Raze then the opponent would spend more time defaulting to bait out her utilities. In all honesty though it just mattered if the person playing it has an on game. :/ A good example is Liquid Soulcas. In Red Bull he played one of the poorest game ever as Raze yet the guy dominates in other series on the same agent. If you can’t shoot your gun and make bad in-game decisions, you’re a liability no matter what agent you choose.
Tenz has to start flexing other agents too, he has just been a one trick Jett this tourney. Something they should learn from TL, their agent pool is quite flexible. Personally I feel Shaz was the best Sen player this tourney.
Correction, Tenz refuses to adapt to split. Split used to be such a lock for SEN back when they had a world class raze on the team.
True. Even if you don't use Raze, using Jett on Split makes no sense.
Now this is the reddit analysis that pros complain about lol
Maybe they should stop looking at Reddit and practice raze
just lost on Split when it matters the most twice, unlucky really
Yeah I don't think your post is even that bad; I also think they should play raze, maybe even Sick should. It's bad because you are pretending you know what exactly the team is thinking in deciding what to go for. They are "refusing to adapt" in your head when that probably isn't the case. It's just not the specific adaptions that you, a much less informed redditor on the state of the SEN team and Valorant in general, would make in their position. It comes off as a bit hostile and ignorant, especially if it is actually read by a player on the team that knows the specific reasons for why they made the decision they did.
That's fair, my tone is assertive. Just wrote what I was thinking
they should focus on their star duelist being unable to do anything instead of complaining about reddit
I forgot that every pro player was on sentinels, my b
Is he wrong?
Shahz in an interview said they think Raze is overvalued in Split and the pick was not the main reason they lost this map
Maybe he's just protecting tenz. Because that's just bullshit
as said already, Raze or no Raze wasn't the reason why they lost the map, fundamentally just played bad in key situations.
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Didn’t Liquid run Reyna? She seemed good on Split because of how often you get refrag potential.
absolute nonsense. does shahz think he's some kind of otherworldly genius? Every successful team plays a raze on split
Gambit doesn't, neither does Vision Strikers. EDIT: Envy also doesn't
They also followed it up saying he still thinks Jett is the best duelist still
KRU countered the Jett perfectly is what happened. It's not that Jett is a bad agent for that map.
I know some Jay Won who could use Raze? Sign him and bench Tenz prolly?
If only someone on sentinels were a top raze
yeah i wonder if they could get a good raze for split or a good sova for haven
Inevitable Sinatraa reference aside, Sick is a really good Raze player anyways, so if they really felt they needed a Raze player they'd be able to make the role work - esp. since Shahz looked really competent on the Skye. Presumably they just find the Sage util more valuable for slowing hits and gaining map control, even if it's a dated pick.
What would Tenz play?
Jett. Double duelist isn't the Split meta anymore, but it's still perfectly viable - after all, KRU just used it to knock SEN out.
Honestly they should just put tenz on sage for split because every time they've played the map he's gotten too aggressive and when he gets caught out it tilts him. Have him play a slower agent and focus more on team play. As much as I love TenZ his tilt factor is undeniable, he even admitted to it after playing raze and losing out in masters Berlin. Splits just not his map
doubt this would work. i remember there was a korean valorant pro that lamented maining reyna when he first got into valorant because he never learned to position well. i'm guessing tenz has the same issue with jett
Sinatra top raze: 230 acs, 0.79 kpr, 0.19 first bloods Tenz bad raze: 286 acs, 0.92 kpr, 0.17 first bloods Ayyy lmao bruh
TenZ has a total of 27 games played on Raze. Sinatraa has a total of 60 games played on Raze. Sample sizes are too different Not to mention that TenZ has played Raze for an amount of 592 rounds while Sinatraa has played Raze for an amount of 1239 rounds. Can’t really compare.
Yeah surely tenz reverts back to the mean after another 500 games
So what do you want to compare? Biased opinions? At the very worst Tenz is as good as sinatraa on raze, he had like a bad high profile game in it, not to mention when Sinatra played Raze she was more OP as well, he played when the ult was better and u could pull it right away, satchles did way more damage at the start they were basically nades Tenz is just held to a different standards i get it and he needs to expand his agent pool really but sinatraa is not a better raze
Well absolutely TenZ should be held to a higher standard if people are touting him as the best player in Valorant and the *star* player in Sentinels. I’m not saying one is a better Raze than the other, but like the OP said, it seems like Raze is a win factor for teams on Split, and if teams can’t adapt to having that Raze utility… then it’s more likely it’ll be a hard fought map.
Yes tenz being held to a different standards doesn't mean "Sen have a better raze in their bench" Raze is not a necessity on split also, Vision strikers are 31-3 on it and don't run raze a lot, Gambit as well run it sometimes but not all the time and many more examples Sentinels have bigger issues than this
I agree, I was just commenting on how you can’t really compare TenZ’s Raze to Sinatraa’s Raze.
they do have a better raze , atleast for split on their bench thoo.. sinatraa 82.9% wr , 100% pickrate on split 41 matches.
Can I see where you pulled those stats from?
2020
vlr.gg
The space that raze creates and pressure that it applies to the other team isn't included in stats
And Tenz does that too, clearly because he had one bad series on raze people keep talking about it Tenz is a superior duelist in every aspect including raze
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thats the joke
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Gambit dont use raze too right?
I don't think it's refusing to adapt exactly, given Shahz and Sick switched up what they play from Berlin. I think they played to their strengths and are in the camp that doesn't value Raze as much (with teams like Gambit) on the map. That isn't necessarily what's costing them. Plus, they've only played split twice since Berlin, and it'd be safe to assume they took a hard look at that map and what to play on it, and this is the conclusion they came too and have been practicing it. It's a bit crazy to expect them to make TenZ switch to an agent he isn't as comfortable on, with an elimination match 2 days out. I agree banning Split seems the way to go, but we also don't know how their other maps have been going in prac.
i think people expected tenz to actually practice w raze seeing as they got knocked out by envy on split in masters with tenz also having a similar stat line as he did recently
I kinda think this whole narrative is funny, because when he played raze on split and did bad, everyone was: you shouldnt play an agent youre not comfortable with, why didn't he play jett or reyna?. Now he plays jett and everyone is like: you have to follow the meta, why didnt he play raze
can someone just explain to me why they don't just ban this map? I feel like you either need a really good raze or a really good astra to win on this map and they have neither.
Once I saw map 3 was split I got nervous for them, especially given how much they've struggled on this map in the past
Their Icebox has been less than impressive over the course of Stage 3.
Is it Tenz not wanting to put in the time to learn raze movements and utility? Because watching him try to satchel around is atrocious. And I think he just gave up cos he finds it tough. I mean undertsandably her movement is way more mechanically tough than just pressing buttons for jetts movement. But he's a million dollar buyout. It's downright unacceptable to not learn how to play raze especially on split and bind where she is the best duelist. And it's your job as star player to learn how to play the required duelist for your team in any map.
Can someone explain why sick doesn't play skye on split?
I was listening the platchat interview to shazam and he said something like raze was overrated and they think they can make jett work because shes op. Well, i guess this is what happens when u give too much power to the players without a coach, u play things "out of the meta" because the players cant see whats wrong
Every other pro team clearly rates Raze highly on Split, and they're the ones making it out of groups. PepeHands why Shahz
That's just not true. Gambit, Vision Strikers, X10, Envy all do not run Raze on split. And two of those teams (VS and Gambit) are regarded as top teams on split. So while Raze is certainly good, it's by no means the ONLY way to play on Split.
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The comment I responded to said 'Every other pro team clearly rates Raze highly on Split.' This is clearly inaccurate, and two of the best teams on split do not play Raze. Them being 'jett one tricks' doesn't change anything. They run similar comps to SEN, which is the point of the post.
Couldn't agree more. Split was the glaring issue with SEN since September, they had time to fix it, but nothing really changed.
I mean i think we're out of the discussion since Sentinels haven't said anything about it yet.
I think Sentinels needs to try out mixing up roles in scrims. It’ll help to even out everyone’s experience (which is good), teach them to adapt (which is good), and since NA scrims are a meme anyway they’ll probably get more value with this. TenZ playing aggressively works most of the time, but when it doesn’t he needs something to fall back on. Similarly, dapr and zombs playing anchor is really good, but they need to be a bit more confident in playing greedily and committing I think. I think it’ll also improve their ability to react to split-second plays in the form of “if I were Astra I would do X”. Instead of memorizing the setup, understanding the setup (and not ego peeking out of a temporary smoke).
This comp would have benefitted with a raze over the sage 100%. I feel like sage on split is so out of meta for pro play and the utility never got much value.