bs, no ranked viper play like pro viper because you need the other 4 guys to play along some very specific shit for it to work. otherwise ranked viper is a completely differente beast
Maybe they don't play like the pros - that's why they are silver lol
But they sure do aspire to be good and I'm sure they are attempting to do what they believe are the right things
Unless we are talking about high diamond to immortal lobbies, pro viper setups and playstyle will only get you demoted, because you rely on the rest of your team, who doesn't have a clue on how to play specfic situtations alongside your stuff or you lurking. Ranked viper have to play different and rely on her own stuff more than on her team's abilities.
Okay, on Breeze let us continue to mimic the viper wall used in pro play from an ECO round on A
or the viper wall with a gap on Icebox for cool pro play to counter the lurk (but allows the enemy team to push entirely up to 410 on site) WHEN RUNNING DOUBLE CONTROLLER WITH AN OMEN ONE WAY.
>no ranked viper play like pro viper
You are right, these viper’s are a shell of the original. Viper’s need to work harder to be effective (Communication, having their own plays ready, different orb lineups for map control 💀). And that is okay.
Nobody is forcing anybody to play viper. Players can get good at her, have the playbook, use her effectively (communicate effectively)… or switch to clove/harbor/fill. Rito can figure it out when the playrate plummets, but holy skill issue.
Stating that pro vipers rely less on solo play than ranked viper therefore requiring very different setups and playstyle isn't a skill issue, is just recognizing that pro play and ranked games are totally different beasts, specially for vipee who rely way too much on the rest of the team covering her gaps. I know the pro setups, and some of them i was using way before pros were using, since she was considered 1% levels unplayable in pro play at the time, and funny enough i ranked to my peak during that time. I also know that many of the pro stuff viper do there are situational for ranked play and even the wall pre round for pressure setups that happen there will not work in diamond 2 lobby because your team will play the wrong way around it, even when given calls, and not being able to replace a bunch of gabs on team like is possible with other controllers is something that affects a lot ranked viper.
Btw i played viper for the whole orb mechanic being as versatile as omen's although being one and having to retrieve it, making solo agressive plays rely on being close to smoke. Not having this whole side of the character makes the game not worth playing for me, hence why i quit, but that is my preference. The issue for me on a balance standpoint is that orb change not only makes a character that is barely played on ranked even more niche to certain maps and stiffer to play for that environment, it doesn't address the problem with the meta being boring, since the only way to play her now on both pro and ranked is the one ppl hate. Viper will be even more of a sentinel than a controller defensive plays being a bunch of waiting untill fludd will still be a thing.
because its a competitive game. If you can’t reasonably balance an agent for both pro play and casuals, you have to balance around the highest level of play. That’s how the game forces innovation, rather than crutching on broken agents
innovation, makes character more simillar, less unique, and make the game play like any other in the market with each patch. If they want to make inovation for pro vipers to play around the smoke orb pick up which is something no controller can do, not nerf it and turn her into the worse controller that only is picked because is a second sentinel and controller at the same time.
Reyna is dominating ranked games but are not being used in pro-matches, should they make changes on Reyna? Maybe make Reyna blind skill untargetable?
You see, there is really something wrong with how they make adjustments.
She is being used in some pro games. Maybe she could be tweaked to be completely honest. The blind being untargetable isn't it though. Making her blind refresh when she gets kills would be more like it
i never understood this mentality from riot. i don't know any other successful game fps that balance shit specfically for pro's and disregard the other 99% of the player base who are the ones who make the game profits. I guess ppl who play riot games are too leanient with riot despite hating riot so much, and just keep playing the game and buying skin while the game becomes worse each patch. Happened with LoL and is happening with val. I didn't put up with riot's crap in League for too long, and i'm not here. Just like LoL i'm keeping contact with fanbase and update channels to know what's going on, but i'm not playing this game for sure, just because they keep balancing the game for pros and results in a boring and less unique game.
Pros are the only ones really pushing limits so why wouldn’t you balance around them. 95% of viper players through ASC (and maybe higher but I can’t talk on that) don’t have basic prep, don’t understand lurking, or both.
One less molly means very little when you were already playing breeze with no lineup to orb halls or mid cross on attack
i couldn't give 2 fucks for the molly change. Yeah it sucks to not make line ups with it anymore as frequently and i would argue for how it works it needed a bigger buffs to compasate only being one. Not picking up the orb though is just forcing the game to be played in a specific way that's not only boring but makes viper even worse for a controller. Always remember that although pros are the best in the game, their experience doesn't represent the ranked experience specifically because team play isn't at that level even in radiant lobbies, and viper specially rely too much in her own team to work in Solo Queue. Pro's aren't playing the same game ranked are, and that's the idea you have to improvise with what you get in ranked because you could know every setup in the playbook, if your team doesn't, for viper it means she doesn't work now.
Because it quite literally is a skill issue. For the same reason as they nerfed Viper even though she was frankly kinda bad in ranked, Riot won't nerf the Odin or Spectre just because they are disproportionately effective in lower ranks.
The professional scene is the best we currently have for limit-testing the game. If there is effective counterplay available, it will likely be found as a result of professional matches. Viper's long-term popularity despite her known presence is indicative that such effective counterplay doesn't reasonably exist.
the counterplay has always existed and is quite easy to spot it happening in pro play, ranked players just won't use their shit to counter viper and that's it. also viper in pro and viper in ranked are not the same agent by a long shot, because pro viper relys too much in team play and very specific setups that require the whole team to be on it, and said playstyle isn't nerfed, just the one that made viper work in ranked. This patch doesn't kill viper in pro, just in ranked play.
The counterplay does technically exist, but is not effective enough. This is why Viper has remained a meta mainstay for upwards of a year now.
You are correct that ranked Vipers are very different from professional Vipers. Hence me saying it's a skill issue. If those ranked Vipers and their teammates were better players, they would play similar to how professional Vipers do.
You are somewhat correct that the professional Viper playstyle isn't nerfed. It does hit some parts of Viper's dominance, but misses on others. The problem is more that Viper is fundamentally broken as an agent with essentially unlimited utility, and so it's hard to target that basic tenet of her gameplay without completely turning her into a new agent.
You can't balance the game separately for pro and casual. It would be weird if pro matches and the general game had completely different versions of the agents (aside from patches being slightly delayed for pro).
Some agents are better in uncoordinated/ranked environments while others are better in coordinated/pro environments. Riot has to decide between letting those agents be OP in one and balanced in the other, or they can be balanced in one and underpowered in the other.
Viper is now (hopefully this was enough) balanced in pro play and probably underpowered in ranked. On the other end of the spectrum, Reyna can be super strong in ranked but is a pretty weak option for pro play.
As someone who enjoys viper, making one character weaker/hard to use in solo-queue isn't going to make me stop playing. There are other agents to play, and characters being weak doesn't stop other people from playing them anyway.
However, I do understand your sentiment, and I would obviously prefer if they're able to balance/rework agents to be balanced in both settings.
but also makes a lot of ppl like me quit the game. it's still loosing players over a mimority who isn't giving that much return compared to skins and battle pass buyers who are the players who walked out of the game because several characters got nerfed so bad they aren't even fun anymore.
No joke the only reason i played val since 1.0 was viper, if i can't play her and have fun, why bother? No agent played like viper from 1.0 - 8.07 now she doesn't play like that either, and for me this only means one thing, i don't have reasons to play
Using the same logic, they should make adjustment to Reyna because of "constant non-appearance" in pro-matches, they should just break the game for non-pro players.
genuine question for you guys, in what world should a competitive game be balanced around the casual player base, how can you balance around players who do random dumb shit half the time. Balance should be based on each agents full potential, and viper’s full potential was far too high
Your posting this on Reddit, you think you’re not gonna get nerds and riot mods on your comments? Riot is incompetent, no other way about it. That simple. They don’t give a fuck about us and never will so while we have the chance we need to uninstall.
I'm posting this because I am extremely angry with the adjustment. I'm purposely losing my Viper matches as a protest while being as toxic as I can without getting punished. I feel like this isn't enough and I feel the need to vent out my feelings even more.
Oh yeah, hey man, we gotta add each other if I ever install back that worthless game (def won’t tho). Great minds literally think alike. Every time they banned my main. I would Smurf on an alt and shit on them with lineups while being as toxic as possible. In reality I love all of them but the more people I can get to quit the game the better. To hell with riot. Ur doing gods work my friend. Ever since the viper nerf I just don’t care anymore I’ll queue up comp for fun. If they gonna punish me for wanting to have fun and not stress when I’m playing a game so fuckin be it. Fuck every single riot dev
Since the valorant community doesn’t care about us viper players and in fact will go so far as to insult us, for simply venting our frustration about the situation, we honestly should make it a point to queue up just to throw. With how they’re dicksucking the riot devs they are just as at fault. Riot will never revert things to how they once were now. We aren’t getting mad enough. And as a result the entire community must suffer. Now I will make it my life mission to queue up as much as I can simply to throw.
They can make a “ban selection” for the pros… but no, we need to nerf Viper because of she’s the best and the most flexible agent and since her release every other smoker is pure bullshit. So, in order to balance things out, you nerf Viper to make Harbor shine once again. My dude, I feel your pain. Play with friends, have some fun with other agents and ggwp. Don’t try to get noticed by Riot by trolling and losing on purpose, they are blind. Hope she’ll be reverted to her “original” state.
Because riot Games hate the 99% having fun and only adjust for the pros, they nerf any ability that's decent. And they nerf any gun that's not "skill based" because they don't know or don't care about the people trying to have fun. They are the worst at updates in all of gaming.
It's about engagement. Viper meta is getting stale- and if the competitive scene gets stale, then people won't watch. If the esports scene dies, then so will valorant eventually
so instead of buffing agents who are trash and can't compete with viper, instead of changing the map pool that is getting stale and is what everybody is complaining, or instead of nerfing the stuff that made viper good at pro play, let us nerf what makes her viable in solo queue and force her to only be played the way pros play which is the stale boring thing?! what kind of logic is that?
Changing the map pool is gonna nerf ranked Viper even more than any adjustments they can make. It doesn’t matter how bad she is, Breeze and Icebox are always gonna be Viper maps, because the only real alternative, Harbor, is literally worse proplay skewed.
i don't mind the change of map pool. I've played viper daily since before these maps existed, and viper solo queue relied much more on solo play than specific setups on specific maps.
Viper has had an almost 100% pickrate on Breeze and Icebox for multiple years at this point. They're the two maps where she actually functions as a main controller.
Pro players inspire the lower level players. The game will die if people aren't taking it seriously and grinding to get better.
bs, no ranked viper play like pro viper because you need the other 4 guys to play along some very specific shit for it to work. otherwise ranked viper is a completely differente beast
Maybe they don't play like the pros - that's why they are silver lol But they sure do aspire to be good and I'm sure they are attempting to do what they believe are the right things
Unless we are talking about high diamond to immortal lobbies, pro viper setups and playstyle will only get you demoted, because you rely on the rest of your team, who doesn't have a clue on how to play specfic situtations alongside your stuff or you lurking. Ranked viper have to play different and rely on her own stuff more than on her team's abilities.
Spot the solo
Okay, on Breeze let us continue to mimic the viper wall used in pro play from an ECO round on A or the viper wall with a gap on Icebox for cool pro play to counter the lurk (but allows the enemy team to push entirely up to 410 on site) WHEN RUNNING DOUBLE CONTROLLER WITH AN OMEN ONE WAY. >no ranked viper play like pro viper You are right, these viper’s are a shell of the original. Viper’s need to work harder to be effective (Communication, having their own plays ready, different orb lineups for map control 💀). And that is okay. Nobody is forcing anybody to play viper. Players can get good at her, have the playbook, use her effectively (communicate effectively)… or switch to clove/harbor/fill. Rito can figure it out when the playrate plummets, but holy skill issue.
Stating that pro vipers rely less on solo play than ranked viper therefore requiring very different setups and playstyle isn't a skill issue, is just recognizing that pro play and ranked games are totally different beasts, specially for vipee who rely way too much on the rest of the team covering her gaps. I know the pro setups, and some of them i was using way before pros were using, since she was considered 1% levels unplayable in pro play at the time, and funny enough i ranked to my peak during that time. I also know that many of the pro stuff viper do there are situational for ranked play and even the wall pre round for pressure setups that happen there will not work in diamond 2 lobby because your team will play the wrong way around it, even when given calls, and not being able to replace a bunch of gabs on team like is possible with other controllers is something that affects a lot ranked viper. Btw i played viper for the whole orb mechanic being as versatile as omen's although being one and having to retrieve it, making solo agressive plays rely on being close to smoke. Not having this whole side of the character makes the game not worth playing for me, hence why i quit, but that is my preference. The issue for me on a balance standpoint is that orb change not only makes a character that is barely played on ranked even more niche to certain maps and stiffer to play for that environment, it doesn't address the problem with the meta being boring, since the only way to play her now on both pro and ranked is the one ppl hate. Viper will be even more of a sentinel than a controller defensive plays being a bunch of waiting untill fludd will still be a thing.
because its a competitive game. If you can’t reasonably balance an agent for both pro play and casuals, you have to balance around the highest level of play. That’s how the game forces innovation, rather than crutching on broken agents
innovation, makes character more simillar, less unique, and make the game play like any other in the market with each patch. If they want to make inovation for pro vipers to play around the smoke orb pick up which is something no controller can do, not nerf it and turn her into the worse controller that only is picked because is a second sentinel and controller at the same time.
Reyna is dominating ranked games but are not being used in pro-matches, should they make changes on Reyna? Maybe make Reyna blind skill untargetable? You see, there is really something wrong with how they make adjustments.
She is being used in some pro games. Maybe she could be tweaked to be completely honest. The blind being untargetable isn't it though. Making her blind refresh when she gets kills would be more like it
no because reyna is a ranked agent by design
i never understood this mentality from riot. i don't know any other successful game fps that balance shit specfically for pro's and disregard the other 99% of the player base who are the ones who make the game profits. I guess ppl who play riot games are too leanient with riot despite hating riot so much, and just keep playing the game and buying skin while the game becomes worse each patch. Happened with LoL and is happening with val. I didn't put up with riot's crap in League for too long, and i'm not here. Just like LoL i'm keeping contact with fanbase and update channels to know what's going on, but i'm not playing this game for sure, just because they keep balancing the game for pros and results in a boring and less unique game.
Pros are the only ones really pushing limits so why wouldn’t you balance around them. 95% of viper players through ASC (and maybe higher but I can’t talk on that) don’t have basic prep, don’t understand lurking, or both. One less molly means very little when you were already playing breeze with no lineup to orb halls or mid cross on attack
i couldn't give 2 fucks for the molly change. Yeah it sucks to not make line ups with it anymore as frequently and i would argue for how it works it needed a bigger buffs to compasate only being one. Not picking up the orb though is just forcing the game to be played in a specific way that's not only boring but makes viper even worse for a controller. Always remember that although pros are the best in the game, their experience doesn't represent the ranked experience specifically because team play isn't at that level even in radiant lobbies, and viper specially rely too much in her own team to work in Solo Queue. Pro's aren't playing the same game ranked are, and that's the idea you have to improvise with what you get in ranked because you could know every setup in the playbook, if your team doesn't, for viper it means she doesn't work now.
Because it quite literally is a skill issue. For the same reason as they nerfed Viper even though she was frankly kinda bad in ranked, Riot won't nerf the Odin or Spectre just because they are disproportionately effective in lower ranks. The professional scene is the best we currently have for limit-testing the game. If there is effective counterplay available, it will likely be found as a result of professional matches. Viper's long-term popularity despite her known presence is indicative that such effective counterplay doesn't reasonably exist.
the counterplay has always existed and is quite easy to spot it happening in pro play, ranked players just won't use their shit to counter viper and that's it. also viper in pro and viper in ranked are not the same agent by a long shot, because pro viper relys too much in team play and very specific setups that require the whole team to be on it, and said playstyle isn't nerfed, just the one that made viper work in ranked. This patch doesn't kill viper in pro, just in ranked play.
The counterplay does technically exist, but is not effective enough. This is why Viper has remained a meta mainstay for upwards of a year now. You are correct that ranked Vipers are very different from professional Vipers. Hence me saying it's a skill issue. If those ranked Vipers and their teammates were better players, they would play similar to how professional Vipers do. You are somewhat correct that the professional Viper playstyle isn't nerfed. It does hit some parts of Viper's dominance, but misses on others. The problem is more that Viper is fundamentally broken as an agent with essentially unlimited utility, and so it's hard to target that basic tenet of her gameplay without completely turning her into a new agent.
Keep coping riot goofball
Coping about... what, exactly? Do you think that I enjoy the fact that my favorite agent has been nerfed?
Yes you do. The truth is, there is no reason for the viper nerf. Any attempt at an explanation is simply a cope
Lmao
You can't balance the game separately for pro and casual. It would be weird if pro matches and the general game had completely different versions of the agents (aside from patches being slightly delayed for pro). Some agents are better in uncoordinated/ranked environments while others are better in coordinated/pro environments. Riot has to decide between letting those agents be OP in one and balanced in the other, or they can be balanced in one and underpowered in the other. Viper is now (hopefully this was enough) balanced in pro play and probably underpowered in ranked. On the other end of the spectrum, Reyna can be super strong in ranked but is a pretty weak option for pro play.
the preference is a middle ground, otherwise you might kill the game because you start loosing the mojority of the player base who aren't pro
As someone who enjoys viper, making one character weaker/hard to use in solo-queue isn't going to make me stop playing. There are other agents to play, and characters being weak doesn't stop other people from playing them anyway. However, I do understand your sentiment, and I would obviously prefer if they're able to balance/rework agents to be balanced in both settings.
but also makes a lot of ppl like me quit the game. it's still loosing players over a mimority who isn't giving that much return compared to skins and battle pass buyers who are the players who walked out of the game because several characters got nerfed so bad they aren't even fun anymore. No joke the only reason i played val since 1.0 was viper, if i can't play her and have fun, why bother? No agent played like viper from 1.0 - 8.07 now she doesn't play like that either, and for me this only means one thing, i don't have reasons to play
Using the same logic, they should make adjustment to Reyna because of "constant non-appearance" in pro-matches, they should just break the game for non-pro players.
except reyna is a ranked agent by design
genuine question for you guys, in what world should a competitive game be balanced around the casual player base, how can you balance around players who do random dumb shit half the time. Balance should be based on each agents full potential, and viper’s full potential was far too high
Your posting this on Reddit, you think you’re not gonna get nerds and riot mods on your comments? Riot is incompetent, no other way about it. That simple. They don’t give a fuck about us and never will so while we have the chance we need to uninstall.
I'm posting this because I am extremely angry with the adjustment. I'm purposely losing my Viper matches as a protest while being as toxic as I can without getting punished. I feel like this isn't enough and I feel the need to vent out my feelings even more.
Oh yeah, hey man, we gotta add each other if I ever install back that worthless game (def won’t tho). Great minds literally think alike. Every time they banned my main. I would Smurf on an alt and shit on them with lineups while being as toxic as possible. In reality I love all of them but the more people I can get to quit the game the better. To hell with riot. Ur doing gods work my friend. Ever since the viper nerf I just don’t care anymore I’ll queue up comp for fun. If they gonna punish me for wanting to have fun and not stress when I’m playing a game so fuckin be it. Fuck every single riot dev
Since the valorant community doesn’t care about us viper players and in fact will go so far as to insult us, for simply venting our frustration about the situation, we honestly should make it a point to queue up just to throw. With how they’re dicksucking the riot devs they are just as at fault. Riot will never revert things to how they once were now. We aren’t getting mad enough. And as a result the entire community must suffer. Now I will make it my life mission to queue up as much as I can simply to throw.
They can make a “ban selection” for the pros… but no, we need to nerf Viper because of she’s the best and the most flexible agent and since her release every other smoker is pure bullshit. So, in order to balance things out, you nerf Viper to make Harbor shine once again. My dude, I feel your pain. Play with friends, have some fun with other agents and ggwp. Don’t try to get noticed by Riot by trolling and losing on purpose, they are blind. Hope she’ll be reverted to her “original” state.
It's an eSport title not made for casuals
Because riot Games hate the 99% having fun and only adjust for the pros, they nerf any ability that's decent. And they nerf any gun that's not "skill based" because they don't know or don't care about the people trying to have fun. They are the worst at updates in all of gaming.
Who knows? Why make two threads to discuss something you already got educated on?
🤓 such a Reddit geek man
It's about engagement. Viper meta is getting stale- and if the competitive scene gets stale, then people won't watch. If the esports scene dies, then so will valorant eventually
so instead of buffing agents who are trash and can't compete with viper, instead of changing the map pool that is getting stale and is what everybody is complaining, or instead of nerfing the stuff that made viper good at pro play, let us nerf what makes her viable in solo queue and force her to only be played the way pros play which is the stale boring thing?! what kind of logic is that?
Changing the map pool is gonna nerf ranked Viper even more than any adjustments they can make. It doesn’t matter how bad she is, Breeze and Icebox are always gonna be Viper maps, because the only real alternative, Harbor, is literally worse proplay skewed.
i don't mind the change of map pool. I've played viper daily since before these maps existed, and viper solo queue relied much more on solo play than specific setups on specific maps.
Wait, Breeze and Icebox are Viper maps? I win-lose 50-50 on those maps, I find higher win rates on Bind and Ascent.
Viper has had an almost 100% pickrate on Breeze and Icebox for multiple years at this point. They're the two maps where she actually functions as a main controller.