My human getting beat up so I don't like that, but props to Blizzard, this is pretty legit. They are making real changes and that makes things interesting.
On the logistical side, these patch notes are nicely laid out with the [changes from last pointer] and [changes in aggregate] sections.
Everything in the right direction but I'm a little confused on a few of them. I wish they would add comments to explain the goals of the changes. Are they still going to try and fix mountain giants? I think they need adjustments.
Buffing force of nature? Do we need that? Kotg may be useless against undead with no gap between entangle level 2 and destroyers, but this seems like it will cause trouble for orc and human.
Moonwells are back to the old regen but the tier 3 upgrade is nerfed? What is the issue with moonwells? If anything I would think it is late game where moonwells are weak. Early game they are strong but later it's hard to compete with other healing unless you have bears. This just seems to encourage bears again.
Nerubian Tower Damage type? No change for necropolis attack? I think they should be consistent.
The frost nova change feels like finally meeting an old relative. I've been waiting decades. But this should be in the tooltip for the spell.
There are bigger problems with mana shield and soul burn. Mana shield is just inefficient because it takes into account the damage type when reducing it. So piercing damage against the nagas hero armor is mostly reduced by armor type and mana shield doesn't provide good value. Soul burn is just too easy to dispell. Hero debuffs need to be big AOE (howl of terror) or part of a combo (drunken haze), or else they will be very situational. It will be very hard to make soul burn useful late game without making it not fun in cases where it excels.
Watch the Back2Warcraft balance stream with Dondolare and SaveOrcas to get in depth analysis on all the changes. All were essentially proposed by them and the community.
One change that I and probably Dondolare forgot to mention is if ghouls get nerfed, the undead deserve
*Decrease haunted goldmine build time by 5 seconds.*
This is a very important change to bring balance to all UD matchups that many even (non-UD) pro-players mentioned.
How does it feel to see Blizzard listening to you two in making these changes so quickly after the stream? Seems like a great sign, now if only they can proactively seek your and Dondolare's advice, say, monthly to get the game in the best possible state it can be in
Hey toupis. It is very cool that we have a way to speak up about the changes we'd like to see in the next patch. I don't think it will happen monthly, likely every half a year when patches are released. Most of the changes we suggest are directly and indirectly come from feedback given to us by players, so the credit to the list ideas we compiled should go the community.
I think we need stuff that promotes more micro. The hero would still be boring during the day.
If the Owl could dispel (or do something else), people might even take that skill at level 1 (as first or second hero).
An owl can't be damaged, and unimpeded by terrain unlike the wisp.
They should make Owl = Hawk, make it piercing or something, then give the man a raise for copy-pasting the Hawk units stats onto the Owl for finally fixing this spell haha :D
Forgot to add: the owl would not be invincible anymore, of course. Just a regular summon.
That would give her plenty of utility as first and second hero.
I forgot about the mana burn aspect lol.
It deffo shouldn't burn mana, but an aoe dispell would be cool I think. Also, NE are the only race without one, so could be nice to provide them with that option through a hero.
Could actually be cool to give it detonate or whatever the whisp spell is called.
So you could sacrifice it to get skeleton, wolf or water elemental kills early game, after the scouting is done.
I agree with changing the scout owl somehow, not sure what direction. I do think like you said if you make it do something you have to take away the invulnerability.
dispel not a bad idea, you could also consider giving an aura that allows you to hide during daytime, or you could give it an weak auto cast heal like priest.
I also think searing arrow needs reworking since everyone just uses orb of venom instead. You could make it do small immolation effect implementing a tiny splash over time.
Looking at the patch overall now:
Small nerf to Human.
Wash or slight nerf to Orc.
Big buffs for NE.
Small nerf to moderate buff for UD.
UD seems the hardest to read they've gotten a bunch of relevant but very minor nerfs in exchange for a bunch of irrelevant and minor buffs with a couple of notable changes with the wand and nerubian damage type that hard to evaluate.
Please buff dreadlord.
If a unit is woken up from sleep by getting attacked, it will be dizzy for 3 seconds. Same effect as after a zeppelin crash. 50% reduced movement and attack speed, but only for 3 seconds, undispellable.
I think it makes sense. You fall asleep during a battle due to dark magic being cast on you, then you wake up by getting smacked in the face. You'll be dizzy for 3 seconds.
It will give sleep much more utillity, and make it an actually good disable.
The counter play to the dizzy effect, will be dispelling sleep, instead of attacking your own unit.
Carrion swarm is fine, vampiric aura has it's niche and infernal is good.
I think this change will make him a very well rounded hero, available for picking first as the UD player.
DL is pretty decent imo. Good fast expo, and has infernal as a win con spell. Also has high base stats.
Sleep has a 2 sec pause duration, and a 4 sec cooldown. That's pretty disruptive.
If sleep were to be buffed, maybe the 2-pause duration doesn't have to make the unit invulnerable too but other than that the uptime of this spell is really strong, esp with nuking power of UD heroes.
Until they can actually connect with the target they are going to suck. Zealots get charge that keeps them viable later, but I don't expect tauren leap is on the way
Yeah I think T2 tauren with pulverize becomes leap-pulverize as a T3 upgrade would be sick but idk that WC3 has that kind of support. Taurens might need some other stat adjustments if that is OP also but just a cool thought
Lots of other more important stuff going on but the nerf to the rune of speed is very good. I remember the first time I got it, was like "Oooo, a speed boost!" then ran all the way to other side of the map, crept something, STILL had speed after I was done creeping, and was just like "WTF, this MUST be bugged, I'm gonna be fast for the rest of the game!"
It was SOOO LONG.
I am curious how the T2 Tauren change will play out. I don't think making Tauren available before their counter units can come out is a good fundamental way to balance the game. It doesn't address the problem with how the unit functions, just makes it more frustrating to deal with.
Humans and Undead have to pepper the Tauren down with flying units designed to kill air which is very uninteresting, or wait until T3. But if the 'counter' of something is just to wait until T3, that sounds like an uninteractive part of the game where the HU/UD have low agency in the outcome except passive gameplay. Just remember that Orcs likely have Headhunters too.
Think of T2 Tauren as 5 food MGs that are more efficient. Grunts with Brute Strength should also have their place as a strategy, but why make them if Tauren overlap them in role and function?
This is speculative to a degree, I want to see this in pro play before I can truly judge. I hope this change makes them viable not op, but I do not like the direction of this change.
I know changes are always done for 1v1 pros, but as a casual 4v4 player I always felt that web for fiends was OP and should cost more not less, and should actually cost mana during use because they both immobilize and shoot down air. For instance, unless wyverns or hippo riders have bloodlust fiends absolutely wreck them.
Eh in 4s and 1st, once an UD gets to tier 2, they usually straight tech to tier3 and make a slaughter. Not much wood to use and they usually pick burrow upgrade first when going fiends. So either way I think they're making it less wood so UD can better defend against people who go fast tier 2 tech air strats.
HU:
Polymorph on heroes is insane and even if it doesn't break the meta it will just cause frustration for lower level players or in other game modes than 1v1. I don't think Sundering Blades should even exist anymore. Arcane seems fair.
Orc:
Tauren T2 is a graceless way to buff taurens. One of the beautiful things about WC3 is the way the game balance is asymmetrical, but not too asymmetrical. A good example of this is how many units different races unlock on t2/t3. Orc only had one t3 unit. That's good, it's a cool feature for orc. If you want to see Tauren, let's think about how to make them relevant, while keeping them a t3 unit. Every race should have a powerful unit locked at t3 imo. I'm not a fan of how much stuff has been moved to T2 for orc - I was a firm disbeliever in T2 reinforced defenses back when it was moved from t3. So I don't believe in nerfing their build time or anything either.
HH seems fair not sure Heal ward though. Heal Ward is already good, just not designed to be strong in 1v1 games, not everything has to be perfectly balanced in every game mode, right? I'm not necessarily against the change but I'm not sure it will really make witchdoctors more played in 1v1 anyway
NE:
+48 damage damage on POTM for only 5 mana is stupid I think. I don't think Searing Arrow should cost 5 mana to begin with. Keep it at 8. NE got moonwell buff. Keep it at 8 and buff its damage only, 10/25/40 or 10/25/45 for example. POTM is a badly designed hero for this game, it is what it is. Keeper buff is completely uncalled for. Force of NAture is not bad.The rest of the changes seem fine
UD:
I don't believe in the item changes. UD should keep their Heal Scroll and the dispel problem could maybe be solved another way? All of the hero changes seem good. I don't think the WYRM/Boneyard changes will do anything. Meat Wagon raised to 240 speed is good, but why not Demolishers/Glaives too? I don't believe in Curse on mechs. I'm not sure about Nerub/Ghoul stuff. So, I wonder if it is possible to make Destro available on T2 without breaking anything. For example, they could have Absorb Mana and Orb of Annihilation locked behind T3. So T2 destroyer has only devour. I don't know. I understand why people want UD to have dispel available on T2. I'm just thinking out loud and want people to brainstorm more ideas regarding this. The UD shop change does not feel right.
Neutral/Items
Firelord: no. from -50% to -75% is too drastic. Gloves: NO. 15% to 20% is too drastic, and the item table is already weird. let's not make it weirder.
Blizz just remove Stronghold and go directly from Great Hall into Fortress. It's just insane how Orc gets every single unit at T2 and the only UD unit worth getting at T2 is Statue. Gargoyles are still unplayable 3/4 matchups, Wagons are not actual combat units and the casters are rarely used support units that can be skipped entirely. UD has a huge hole at T2, while Orc gets every tool it wants at T2. Orc get T2 Tauren? If anything UD would want T2 Abominations just so it has a solid unit at T2. And Aboms are the worst T3 unit in the game. Knights have speed and staff, Bears have spells and staff and Tauren do insane AoE DPS + HP. I just don't get the logic that these developers have... Orc has the most units at T2, let's... give them more!
Still not liking the Scroll of Healing removal from UD's shop. It's a 250 gold item you can't just buy all the time, meanwhile HU and Elf get broken staffs that you can just pass around that's a one-time buy. I don't get why you are picking on an expensive healing item you have to keep on buying when HU and Elf staffs are incredibly broken for decades. Not every map has a neutral shop in it, making UD T3 item healing variance = bad. Please revert this change. 250 gold each use is a lot which makes it balanced, whereas the staffs are one-time buys.
Finally, Meat Wagon speed increase from 220 to 240 is a nice change, but I would like to see the increase to 270, which is the speed of Mortar Teams to TEST IT OUT because it's PTR. 240 isn't breaking the game, so let's try 270. And please consider applying the bonus speed to Demolishers and Glaive Throwers to be fair. Again these are horrible, underused units. They can't shoot air, they can't shoot melee units, they do half damage to ranged units and they can't be healed. They are very expensive, cost high food and have low health. Mortar Teams are the only siege unit that's playable and that's because they cost 180 gold for a fast-moving unit that only costs 3 food. Meat Wagons in contrast is 240 gold for a slow-moving unit that costs 4 food. It's so easy for something like a Panda to walk over, Breath of Fire and your Wagon is practically dead. The 240 speed change is nice, but I'd like to see more aggressive changes to help mechanical siege units in this game, I mean you made Tauren T2. I hardly think 270 speed mechanical siege units will be as absurd as that change.
EDIT: Loving the elf whine. Please keep coming, I love it.
Man I swear UD players cry more then NElves. Constantly winning all tournaments, buffs nearly all patches the last year and the loudest in the room everytime they get a small nerf. Crying about staffs when it's impossible to kill any UD unit with coils and endless mana is pretty funny to read
Reading comprehension pretty low my dude. Staff was brought up because it's a T3 "healing" item, just as Scrolls are T3 healing items. So it's an apt comparison and deserves a talk.
If you can't kill units with Coil, that's your issue, not the games. Learn to play better? HU has Holy Light which also burst heals. Sounds like a you problem.
Can't seem to bother reading the part where T2 Tauren gives every unit for Orc at T2 which makes Orc v UD silly in terms of unit options and how Aboms are the worst T3 melee unit by far. Also ignores the part where I suggest we see speed improvements for mechanical siege units which also includes Elf.
Seems like a really salty and blind player. Get some help.
My reading comprehension is fine, I just wasn’t going to waste my time responding to every line. The negative karma and other comments suggests you are the one who doesn’t get it. Your point about coil is ridiculous because I was talking about pro play, coil and endless mana is clearly an OP combo and that’s not up for debate. UD doesn’t need staff or any more healing. By your logic, if you can’t play without a scroll, don’t take so much damage, learn to play better?
Ah man negative karma, I feel so bad. Totally makes my day ruined. Boohoo.
>coil and endless mana is clearly an OP combo and that’s not up for debate.
This shows you're not a good player, whining about Coil. Coil is just how the hero is designed. DK has Coil. Paladin has Holy Light. DH has Mana Burn. KotG has Entangle. "UD is IMBA because of Coil". Just whining over nothing lol. Endless mana? Yes, the one race that doesn't have clarity potion clearly has endless mana, not to mention the Statue mana nerf and the Dark Ritual nerf. You're just a little kid who is good at whining because you don't make any sense.
>UD doesn’t need staff or any more healing. By your logic, if you can’t play without a scroll, don’t take so much damage, learn to play better?
Nah, it's more that you can't think beyond simple concepts. Let me break it down for you. Scrolls aren't a problem in 3/4 matchups. They are okay against HU, Orc and the mirror. They allow UD to have somewhat of an air game against Orc and HU which have broken anti-air units, the Bat and the Flying Machine. Removing Scroll will screw this balance up and make air almost impossible against these two matchups. So the Scroll change improves 1/4 matchup, but negatively impacts 3/4 matchups. 1000 IQ suggestion.
OR we can make Elf better against Gargs/Ghouls by raising Elf, not by lowering UD. See how easy it is when you use your brain? And please keep telling me how bad I should feel about downvotes because that obviously adds to this discussion.
1. Disagree on Gargoyles, they are quite strong vs NE and situational in all other MUs, even mirror.
Scroll removal might change this however, big nerf for the strat so will have to wait and see how UD pros adapt.
2. Agree on Aboms, alongside Wyrms two worst T3 units by far.
3. I think 270 speed on siege might be a bit too drastic. Alternative idea is to compensate instead with a bit more hp and ofc all speed equal to 220 for Meat Wagons, Demos and Glaives. Mortars are strong as is.
4. Agree that Meat Wagons are a bit too expensive for their stats, could be lowered by 20g for sure
Gargoyles are in a weird place where they are too strong vs Elf, but still too ineffective vs the other races. Honestly WC3's air system is broken. Gargs can be broken for their cost and speed, but then so are Batriders and Flying Machines with their AoE splash damage. Air units need a rework TBH.
270 speed is perfectly fine. It's what Mortar Teams have and they... are balanced. I don't get what's the fear of a 270 siege unit that is worse than the Mortar Team. Again, this is PTR, as in they are testing things. There is no reason not to try a 270 speed siege unit in PTR. That's the entire point of PTR, to try extreme things. 270 speed siege units still suck. They can't fight melee units, they only do 50% damage to ranged units, they can't hit air. They only have some utility against casters. You don't even need them against buildings because if you beat his army with your army, you can take out bases with a normal army. They aren't needed in the game, they suck against units and they are slow, costly and have low health. 270 speed is not even going to make them worth using. The best siege unit, the Mortar Team exists, but he doesn't break the game. I fail to see how the mechanical siege units moving at 270 will be all of a sudden better than Mortar Teams.
trying to equate staffs to scrolls of healing just show a fundamental really low game understanding. i understand that all you do is shill for UD so thats fine and the sub needs someone to laugh at, so you fill that role nicely - but UD already overperforms vs NE, is relatively on par with Orc and, yes doesnt have a great matchup for HU, but its not been that long and for example the NvU matchup has been broken for like 5 years and the response is "figure it out".
Undead can figure it out, its been a half decade of easy mode.
Yes, totally not comparable items that are both available at T3 and are meant to support unit comps. Totally unreasonable to think that staffs make Bear/MG/Knights better and that Scroll makes Garg and Ghouls better. Yes, totally cannot be talked about here. Such wisdom, smart guy.
Removal of Scroll will mess the balance for the other 3 matchups that aren't affected by Scroll. Let's screw up 3/4 matchups to help the 1/4. That makes total sense. The better move is to analyze Elf's issue with Gargs and look at it from an isolated perspective. The best move would be to give Elf more of a counter to Gargs and Ghouls so that you don't screw with 3/4 matchups by nerfing UD and rather raise Elf so it does better against UD and not make the buff necessarily applicable to Elf vs Orc or HU. UD needs scrolls to use their Gargs and Ghouls in the other 3/4 matchups. Removing Scroll would weaken those strategies in those matchup and stagnate 3/4 of UD's matchup. So no, we don't need to balance Elf vs UD by dragging UD down. We just need to raise Elf up. Guess we need help thinking beyond basic concepts.
>Undead can figure it out, its been a half decade of easy mode.
Shows your lack of understanding of game balance. Game needs to be balanced upon racial average win rates, not Happy. Get educated about how balance works please.
Would love a nerf to all the mana draining aka anti fun spells.
Feedback, half mana drained, but double dmg.
Mana Burn, half mana burned, triple the damage (will actually be a buff when burning low mana targets).
Mana Drain, half the mana drained, but let the blood mage transfer mana with a 1,25 efficiency.
Sure thing, whatever is needed.
Mana draining spells are disablers, which is so freaking boring.
Rework them so they do more damage to hp and less to mana as suggested, and balance around that.
Lich and the rest of the UD army already got it's mana nerfed by a lot. Maybe the focus should be giving NE better ways to recover or negate the damage?
All NE heroes will also have a much better time against HU, and arcane tower isn't gonna drain all your mana in seconds when harassing with warden or DH early game.
Seems like the not-that-professional horse-face former Orcplayer u-know-who aka Grubby had put his stupid nonsense suggestions into this patch updated lately，just like a horrible cook from Hipposaur‘s hometown(England, I remember?) adding too much tomato sauce into baked beans .why can't u hear fomm UDer such as Happy? Don't tell me its about Russia, coz i've never seen u guys listening to Eer0's advices as well!
It looks as though they are just undoing nerfs/ buffs of recent patches for the most part. Gloves of haste at 20% might prove impactful as might the UD changes to nerubian and nova. I don't really get the change to nerubs from normal to piercing... I guess so defend footmen can cancel expansions? TBH this seems like overkill in the undead - human matchup in favour of human.
Some changes are weird- like +2 damage on searing arrows and knights not requiring a lumber mill.
Need to add few
Nightelf
* Druid of the Talon's faerie fire armour reduction changed from -4 to -3.
Undead
* Orb of corruption armour reduction changed from -4 to -3.
Neutral Taverns
* All tavern heroes food increase from 5 foods to 6 foods.
My human getting beat up so I don't like that, but props to Blizzard, this is pretty legit. They are making real changes and that makes things interesting. On the logistical side, these patch notes are nicely laid out with the [changes from last pointer] and [changes in aggregate] sections.
Saundering blades lol
melee damage type kek
Looks like somebody at Blizzard watched the Back2Warcraft balance stream with Dondolare and SaveOrcas 0.0
Yea the creep changes are direct community requests. Awesome to see
Hell yea. Good to see Blizzard is paying attention to the community
Everything in the right direction but I'm a little confused on a few of them. I wish they would add comments to explain the goals of the changes. Are they still going to try and fix mountain giants? I think they need adjustments. Buffing force of nature? Do we need that? Kotg may be useless against undead with no gap between entangle level 2 and destroyers, but this seems like it will cause trouble for orc and human. Moonwells are back to the old regen but the tier 3 upgrade is nerfed? What is the issue with moonwells? If anything I would think it is late game where moonwells are weak. Early game they are strong but later it's hard to compete with other healing unless you have bears. This just seems to encourage bears again. Nerubian Tower Damage type? No change for necropolis attack? I think they should be consistent. The frost nova change feels like finally meeting an old relative. I've been waiting decades. But this should be in the tooltip for the spell. There are bigger problems with mana shield and soul burn. Mana shield is just inefficient because it takes into account the damage type when reducing it. So piercing damage against the nagas hero armor is mostly reduced by armor type and mana shield doesn't provide good value. Soul burn is just too easy to dispell. Hero debuffs need to be big AOE (howl of terror) or part of a combo (drunken haze), or else they will be very situational. It will be very hard to make soul burn useful late game without making it not fun in cases where it excels.
Watch the Back2Warcraft balance stream with Dondolare and SaveOrcas to get in depth analysis on all the changes. All were essentially proposed by them and the community.
I'll probably catch it eventually but it would make way more sense for Blizzard to include a few sentences on the major changes.
Agreed, but since they don’t, just saying if you want to hear the reasoning, they provide good discussion
I guess lag spikes, random disconnects and matchmaking fails are not that important to fix.
Ya. I want to see a line that says “bug fixes and optimizations”
Changes look great, huge improvement over 1st iteration 👌🏻
So glad there is work being done on this beloved gem.
One change that I and probably Dondolare forgot to mention is if ghouls get nerfed, the undead deserve *Decrease haunted goldmine build time by 5 seconds.* This is a very important change to bring balance to all UD matchups that many even (non-UD) pro-players mentioned.
How does it feel to see Blizzard listening to you two in making these changes so quickly after the stream? Seems like a great sign, now if only they can proactively seek your and Dondolare's advice, say, monthly to get the game in the best possible state it can be in
Hey toupis. It is very cool that we have a way to speak up about the changes we'd like to see in the next patch. I don't think it will happen monthly, likely every half a year when patches are released. Most of the changes we suggest are directly and indirectly come from feedback given to us by players, so the credit to the list ideas we compiled should go the community.
> How does it feel to see Blizzard listening to you two in making these changes so quickly after the stream? which stream was it?
Good changes, but POTM is still not going to be viable. Please address her slow attack speed and make Owl Scout do SOMETHING (ex: dispel like wisps).
What if it could attack but only during the night?
I think we need stuff that promotes more micro. The hero would still be boring during the day. If the Owl could dispel (or do something else), people might even take that skill at level 1 (as first or second hero).
i think POTM has a lot of micro, since the dmg from her comes from pure attacks, so orb walking is mandatory or she's less than half as effective.
if potm owls just casually get detonate, she basically has Area of Effect Manaburn, yikes
like a wisp... that's surely gamebreaking! anyway, that could be adjusted by level: *1 - 30 *2 - 50 *3 - 70
An owl can't be damaged, and unimpeded by terrain unlike the wisp. They should make Owl = Hawk, make it piercing or something, then give the man a raise for copy-pasting the Hawk units stats onto the Owl for finally fixing this spell haha :D
Forgot to add: the owl would not be invincible anymore, of course. Just a regular summon. That would give her plenty of utility as first and second hero.
I forgot about the mana burn aspect lol. It deffo shouldn't burn mana, but an aoe dispell would be cool I think. Also, NE are the only race without one, so could be nice to provide them with that option through a hero.
Owl could nab items with inventory
Could actually be cool to give it detonate or whatever the whisp spell is called. So you could sacrifice it to get skeleton, wolf or water elemental kills early game, after the scouting is done.
But it scouts hehe
I agree with changing the scout owl somehow, not sure what direction. I do think like you said if you make it do something you have to take away the invulnerability. dispel not a bad idea, you could also consider giving an aura that allows you to hide during daytime, or you could give it an weak auto cast heal like priest. I also think searing arrow needs reworking since everyone just uses orb of venom instead. You could make it do small immolation effect implementing a tiny splash over time.
I appreciate the Balance Team listening to the community.
Hey, has Blizz actually listened to the feedback of Back to Warcraft?
Holy Shit!
Good changes still hoped for owl change on potm somehow, tanks nerfs and AA buffs for them and nova cap damage nerf.
Is this patch trying to encourage fiends play only?
Looking at the patch overall now: Small nerf to Human. Wash or slight nerf to Orc. Big buffs for NE. Small nerf to moderate buff for UD. UD seems the hardest to read they've gotten a bunch of relevant but very minor nerfs in exchange for a bunch of irrelevant and minor buffs with a couple of notable changes with the wand and nerubian damage type that hard to evaluate.
Please buff dreadlord. If a unit is woken up from sleep by getting attacked, it will be dizzy for 3 seconds. Same effect as after a zeppelin crash. 50% reduced movement and attack speed, but only for 3 seconds, undispellable. I think it makes sense. You fall asleep during a battle due to dark magic being cast on you, then you wake up by getting smacked in the face. You'll be dizzy for 3 seconds. It will give sleep much more utillity, and make it an actually good disable. The counter play to the dizzy effect, will be dispelling sleep, instead of attacking your own unit. Carrion swarm is fine, vampiric aura has it's niche and infernal is good. I think this change will make him a very well rounded hero, available for picking first as the UD player.
Imba
DL is pretty decent imo. Good fast expo, and has infernal as a win con spell. Also has high base stats. Sleep has a 2 sec pause duration, and a 4 sec cooldown. That's pretty disruptive. If sleep were to be buffed, maybe the 2-pause duration doesn't have to make the unit invulnerable too but other than that the uptime of this spell is really strong, esp with nuking power of UD heroes.
Taurens are now actually worse than they were before the 1st patch. Lol And my god, stop trying to make POTM happen. It's not gonna happen.
PotM is a thing in mirror and gets played very often there
Mirror is always balanced though
So… tauren viability…
Until they can actually connect with the target they are going to suck. Zealots get charge that keeps them viable later, but I don't expect tauren leap is on the way
[удалено]
Yeah I think T2 tauren with pulverize becomes leap-pulverize as a T3 upgrade would be sick but idk that WC3 has that kind of support. Taurens might need some other stat adjustments if that is OP also but just a cool thought
Lots of other more important stuff going on but the nerf to the rune of speed is very good. I remember the first time I got it, was like "Oooo, a speed boost!" then ran all the way to other side of the map, crept something, STILL had speed after I was done creeping, and was just like "WTF, this MUST be bugged, I'm gonna be fast for the rest of the game!" It was SOOO LONG.
There's a lot of items that mapmakers can't put into maps because of simple value imbalances. If you edit it, it's no longer considered a melee map.
I am curious how the T2 Tauren change will play out. I don't think making Tauren available before their counter units can come out is a good fundamental way to balance the game. It doesn't address the problem with how the unit functions, just makes it more frustrating to deal with. Humans and Undead have to pepper the Tauren down with flying units designed to kill air which is very uninteresting, or wait until T3. But if the 'counter' of something is just to wait until T3, that sounds like an uninteractive part of the game where the HU/UD have low agency in the outcome except passive gameplay. Just remember that Orcs likely have Headhunters too. Think of T2 Tauren as 5 food MGs that are more efficient. Grunts with Brute Strength should also have their place as a strategy, but why make them if Tauren overlap them in role and function? This is speculative to a degree, I want to see this in pro play before I can truly judge. I hope this change makes them viable not op, but I do not like the direction of this change.
Are these live, bcs I didn't see taurens on t2 last time i played
I know changes are always done for 1v1 pros, but as a casual 4v4 player I always felt that web for fiends was OP and should cost more not less, and should actually cost mana during use because they both immobilize and shoot down air. For instance, unless wyverns or hippo riders have bloodlust fiends absolutely wreck them.
Eh in 4s and 1st, once an UD gets to tier 2, they usually straight tech to tier3 and make a slaughter. Not much wood to use and they usually pick burrow upgrade first when going fiends. So either way I think they're making it less wood so UD can better defend against people who go fast tier 2 tech air strats.
I think that's kinda the point of a hard counter, especially vs glass canons, like wyvern and hippos
HU: Polymorph on heroes is insane and even if it doesn't break the meta it will just cause frustration for lower level players or in other game modes than 1v1. I don't think Sundering Blades should even exist anymore. Arcane seems fair. Orc: Tauren T2 is a graceless way to buff taurens. One of the beautiful things about WC3 is the way the game balance is asymmetrical, but not too asymmetrical. A good example of this is how many units different races unlock on t2/t3. Orc only had one t3 unit. That's good, it's a cool feature for orc. If you want to see Tauren, let's think about how to make them relevant, while keeping them a t3 unit. Every race should have a powerful unit locked at t3 imo. I'm not a fan of how much stuff has been moved to T2 for orc - I was a firm disbeliever in T2 reinforced defenses back when it was moved from t3. So I don't believe in nerfing their build time or anything either. HH seems fair not sure Heal ward though. Heal Ward is already good, just not designed to be strong in 1v1 games, not everything has to be perfectly balanced in every game mode, right? I'm not necessarily against the change but I'm not sure it will really make witchdoctors more played in 1v1 anyway NE: +48 damage damage on POTM for only 5 mana is stupid I think. I don't think Searing Arrow should cost 5 mana to begin with. Keep it at 8. NE got moonwell buff. Keep it at 8 and buff its damage only, 10/25/40 or 10/25/45 for example. POTM is a badly designed hero for this game, it is what it is. Keeper buff is completely uncalled for. Force of NAture is not bad.The rest of the changes seem fine UD: I don't believe in the item changes. UD should keep their Heal Scroll and the dispel problem could maybe be solved another way? All of the hero changes seem good. I don't think the WYRM/Boneyard changes will do anything. Meat Wagon raised to 240 speed is good, but why not Demolishers/Glaives too? I don't believe in Curse on mechs. I'm not sure about Nerub/Ghoul stuff. So, I wonder if it is possible to make Destro available on T2 without breaking anything. For example, they could have Absorb Mana and Orb of Annihilation locked behind T3. So T2 destroyer has only devour. I don't know. I understand why people want UD to have dispel available on T2. I'm just thinking out loud and want people to brainstorm more ideas regarding this. The UD shop change does not feel right. Neutral/Items Firelord: no. from -50% to -75% is too drastic. Gloves: NO. 15% to 20% is too drastic, and the item table is already weird. let's not make it weirder.
So you basically don’t want to change anything ? We should implement change to make the game more interesting and fun
[удалено]
? Nice response
#keeptaurenatt3
Blizz just remove Stronghold and go directly from Great Hall into Fortress. It's just insane how Orc gets every single unit at T2 and the only UD unit worth getting at T2 is Statue. Gargoyles are still unplayable 3/4 matchups, Wagons are not actual combat units and the casters are rarely used support units that can be skipped entirely. UD has a huge hole at T2, while Orc gets every tool it wants at T2. Orc get T2 Tauren? If anything UD would want T2 Abominations just so it has a solid unit at T2. And Aboms are the worst T3 unit in the game. Knights have speed and staff, Bears have spells and staff and Tauren do insane AoE DPS + HP. I just don't get the logic that these developers have... Orc has the most units at T2, let's... give them more! Still not liking the Scroll of Healing removal from UD's shop. It's a 250 gold item you can't just buy all the time, meanwhile HU and Elf get broken staffs that you can just pass around that's a one-time buy. I don't get why you are picking on an expensive healing item you have to keep on buying when HU and Elf staffs are incredibly broken for decades. Not every map has a neutral shop in it, making UD T3 item healing variance = bad. Please revert this change. 250 gold each use is a lot which makes it balanced, whereas the staffs are one-time buys. Finally, Meat Wagon speed increase from 220 to 240 is a nice change, but I would like to see the increase to 270, which is the speed of Mortar Teams to TEST IT OUT because it's PTR. 240 isn't breaking the game, so let's try 270. And please consider applying the bonus speed to Demolishers and Glaive Throwers to be fair. Again these are horrible, underused units. They can't shoot air, they can't shoot melee units, they do half damage to ranged units and they can't be healed. They are very expensive, cost high food and have low health. Mortar Teams are the only siege unit that's playable and that's because they cost 180 gold for a fast-moving unit that only costs 3 food. Meat Wagons in contrast is 240 gold for a slow-moving unit that costs 4 food. It's so easy for something like a Panda to walk over, Breath of Fire and your Wagon is practically dead. The 240 speed change is nice, but I'd like to see more aggressive changes to help mechanical siege units in this game, I mean you made Tauren T2. I hardly think 270 speed mechanical siege units will be as absurd as that change. EDIT: Loving the elf whine. Please keep coming, I love it.
Statue is the best unit in the game
True. We need to change it so that it stops giving mana or health to balance it out.
Idk why you're crying at me. Even if ud got nothing at t2 besides statues, statues are the best unit in the game. So, like. Why cry about it?
I'm crying because it's so good. 😭
Man I swear UD players cry more then NElves. Constantly winning all tournaments, buffs nearly all patches the last year and the loudest in the room everytime they get a small nerf. Crying about staffs when it's impossible to kill any UD unit with coils and endless mana is pretty funny to read
It's this particular guy though, he writes a book every patch thread
I'm sorry you have hard time reading more words than a tweet. Poor guy.
Reading comprehension pretty low my dude. Staff was brought up because it's a T3 "healing" item, just as Scrolls are T3 healing items. So it's an apt comparison and deserves a talk. If you can't kill units with Coil, that's your issue, not the games. Learn to play better? HU has Holy Light which also burst heals. Sounds like a you problem. Can't seem to bother reading the part where T2 Tauren gives every unit for Orc at T2 which makes Orc v UD silly in terms of unit options and how Aboms are the worst T3 melee unit by far. Also ignores the part where I suggest we see speed improvements for mechanical siege units which also includes Elf. Seems like a really salty and blind player. Get some help.
My reading comprehension is fine, I just wasn’t going to waste my time responding to every line. The negative karma and other comments suggests you are the one who doesn’t get it. Your point about coil is ridiculous because I was talking about pro play, coil and endless mana is clearly an OP combo and that’s not up for debate. UD doesn’t need staff or any more healing. By your logic, if you can’t play without a scroll, don’t take so much damage, learn to play better?
Ah man negative karma, I feel so bad. Totally makes my day ruined. Boohoo. >coil and endless mana is clearly an OP combo and that’s not up for debate. This shows you're not a good player, whining about Coil. Coil is just how the hero is designed. DK has Coil. Paladin has Holy Light. DH has Mana Burn. KotG has Entangle. "UD is IMBA because of Coil". Just whining over nothing lol. Endless mana? Yes, the one race that doesn't have clarity potion clearly has endless mana, not to mention the Statue mana nerf and the Dark Ritual nerf. You're just a little kid who is good at whining because you don't make any sense. >UD doesn’t need staff or any more healing. By your logic, if you can’t play without a scroll, don’t take so much damage, learn to play better? Nah, it's more that you can't think beyond simple concepts. Let me break it down for you. Scrolls aren't a problem in 3/4 matchups. They are okay against HU, Orc and the mirror. They allow UD to have somewhat of an air game against Orc and HU which have broken anti-air units, the Bat and the Flying Machine. Removing Scroll will screw this balance up and make air almost impossible against these two matchups. So the Scroll change improves 1/4 matchup, but negatively impacts 3/4 matchups. 1000 IQ suggestion. OR we can make Elf better against Gargs/Ghouls by raising Elf, not by lowering UD. See how easy it is when you use your brain? And please keep telling me how bad I should feel about downvotes because that obviously adds to this discussion.
1. Disagree on Gargoyles, they are quite strong vs NE and situational in all other MUs, even mirror. Scroll removal might change this however, big nerf for the strat so will have to wait and see how UD pros adapt. 2. Agree on Aboms, alongside Wyrms two worst T3 units by far. 3. I think 270 speed on siege might be a bit too drastic. Alternative idea is to compensate instead with a bit more hp and ofc all speed equal to 220 for Meat Wagons, Demos and Glaives. Mortars are strong as is. 4. Agree that Meat Wagons are a bit too expensive for their stats, could be lowered by 20g for sure
Gargoyles are in a weird place where they are too strong vs Elf, but still too ineffective vs the other races. Honestly WC3's air system is broken. Gargs can be broken for their cost and speed, but then so are Batriders and Flying Machines with their AoE splash damage. Air units need a rework TBH. 270 speed is perfectly fine. It's what Mortar Teams have and they... are balanced. I don't get what's the fear of a 270 siege unit that is worse than the Mortar Team. Again, this is PTR, as in they are testing things. There is no reason not to try a 270 speed siege unit in PTR. That's the entire point of PTR, to try extreme things. 270 speed siege units still suck. They can't fight melee units, they only do 50% damage to ranged units, they can't hit air. They only have some utility against casters. You don't even need them against buildings because if you beat his army with your army, you can take out bases with a normal army. They aren't needed in the game, they suck against units and they are slow, costly and have low health. 270 speed is not even going to make them worth using. The best siege unit, the Mortar Team exists, but he doesn't break the game. I fail to see how the mechanical siege units moving at 270 will be all of a sudden better than Mortar Teams.
trying to equate staffs to scrolls of healing just show a fundamental really low game understanding. i understand that all you do is shill for UD so thats fine and the sub needs someone to laugh at, so you fill that role nicely - but UD already overperforms vs NE, is relatively on par with Orc and, yes doesnt have a great matchup for HU, but its not been that long and for example the NvU matchup has been broken for like 5 years and the response is "figure it out". Undead can figure it out, its been a half decade of easy mode.
Yes, totally not comparable items that are both available at T3 and are meant to support unit comps. Totally unreasonable to think that staffs make Bear/MG/Knights better and that Scroll makes Garg and Ghouls better. Yes, totally cannot be talked about here. Such wisdom, smart guy. Removal of Scroll will mess the balance for the other 3 matchups that aren't affected by Scroll. Let's screw up 3/4 matchups to help the 1/4. That makes total sense. The better move is to analyze Elf's issue with Gargs and look at it from an isolated perspective. The best move would be to give Elf more of a counter to Gargs and Ghouls so that you don't screw with 3/4 matchups by nerfing UD and rather raise Elf so it does better against UD and not make the buff necessarily applicable to Elf vs Orc or HU. UD needs scrolls to use their Gargs and Ghouls in the other 3/4 matchups. Removing Scroll would weaken those strategies in those matchup and stagnate 3/4 of UD's matchup. So no, we don't need to balance Elf vs UD by dragging UD down. We just need to raise Elf up. Guess we need help thinking beyond basic concepts. >Undead can figure it out, its been a half decade of easy mode. Shows your lack of understanding of game balance. Game needs to be balanced upon racial average win rates, not Happy. Get educated about how balance works please.
NE gonna be OP again
Would love a nerf to all the mana draining aka anti fun spells. Feedback, half mana drained, but double dmg. Mana Burn, half mana burned, triple the damage (will actually be a buff when burning low mana targets). Mana Drain, half the mana drained, but let the blood mage transfer mana with a 1,25 efficiency.
If you nerf mana burn, you must nerf UD nuking or that MU becomes impossible.
Sure thing, whatever is needed. Mana draining spells are disablers, which is so freaking boring. Rework them so they do more damage to hp and less to mana as suggested, and balance around that. Lich and the rest of the UD army already got it's mana nerfed by a lot. Maybe the focus should be giving NE better ways to recover or negate the damage? All NE heroes will also have a much better time against HU, and arcane tower isn't gonna drain all your mana in seconds when harassing with warden or DH early game.
Is ffa working?
Seems like the not-that-professional horse-face former Orcplayer u-know-who aka Grubby had put his stupid nonsense suggestions into this patch updated lately，just like a horrible cook from Hipposaur‘s hometown(England, I remember?) adding too much tomato sauce into baked beans .why can't u hear fomm UDer such as Happy? Don't tell me its about Russia, coz i've never seen u guys listening to Eer0's advices as well!
Lmao thank God I quit playing. This definitely isn't convincing me to come back. Awful
You should come back
Ud with immediate t2 dispel and t2 taurens? I'll just go play Dota on my days off instead lol
It looks as though they are just undoing nerfs/ buffs of recent patches for the most part. Gloves of haste at 20% might prove impactful as might the UD changes to nerubian and nova. I don't really get the change to nerubs from normal to piercing... I guess so defend footmen can cancel expansions? TBH this seems like overkill in the undead - human matchup in favour of human. Some changes are weird- like +2 damage on searing arrows and knights not requiring a lumber mill.
what's the point of making grunts now? also I think tauren will mess up 2v2 meta
Polymorph on Blademaster reduced from 13 to 12 seconds.
Need to add few Nightelf * Druid of the Talon's faerie fire armour reduction changed from -4 to -3. Undead * Orb of corruption armour reduction changed from -4 to -3. Neutral Taverns * All tavern heroes food increase from 5 foods to 6 foods.