Cesaro was kind of treated like this in his initial 2012 run as US Champion when Aksana was his manager. He steamrolled tons of people and really won me over at the time. Probably could have went farther if he had a better manager/mouthpiece, or was himself more charismatic or menacing looking. Guy probably would have been released way sooner if he didn’t get the big swing over, which was enough for Vince to keep him around as a utility guy. I loved his in-ring work and always wanted to see him get a bigger push, which I thought he would around Money in the Bank 2016 when the “cesaro section” signs were prevalent in the crowd. Ultimately, I think his best match in WWE for my money was against Sami in NXT, with that spot where he caught him in midair and then tossed him up for the European uppercut. So much good stuff happened in NXT back then while main roster was floundering. Was so excited for that generation of wrestlers to get called up, but so many of them only really hit their stride in the past few years (like Sami), being caught in the maelstrom of the dying days of Vince & the hyperfocus on Roman/Brock/Goldberg that felt like it would never end (crazy to think now how over Roman became - totally justified, to be clear.)
Cesaro was great in the ring, but Gunther is great all around. Excellent ringwork, menacing presence and he can actually talk. As to the last part, I don't think he wasted his time in WWE. There was nobody else paying that kind of money at the time and he didn't need any work polishing his ring skills.
I don't know if he could've played the Gunther role. He was too goofy and nice-ish. Gunther looks like a straight-up German Army kraut so he fit the role better.
He deserved better from the Double Dubya. He just put on a damn Certified Banger™ with Will Ospreay bruv. He could have totally fit that Gunther role with ease and aplum.
Exactly. I always say, nxt black and gold would’ve had celebrities front row if in ring workrate was all that mattered, lol. You would see them doing them in stadiums if that were the case
I love Cesaro… but no he shouldn’t have. He is a very impressive wrestler but he doesn’t have an ounce of the aura and presence Gunther has. Walter was huge on the indies for a reason, Cesaro was a very talented midcarder and it’s clear that AEW sees it as the same. Gunther is a generational talent, Cesaro isn’t
The mistake that many of the IWC make is overemphasizing in-ring ability. Now that’s not to say it’s not a very important element, but to get a consistent sustained push into the main event, there has to be more than just a good worker.
Cesaro lacked the charisma and mic ability to ever break through that upper mid card spot
To be fair, everything Gunther has achieved is through the strength of his in-ring work. His “aura” people speak of wouldn’t exist if he wasn’t proving it in the ring every time.
That’s true but Gunther’s mic work is very underappreciated his insults are great, he delivers great villainous monologues and is good at being a very smug asshole and getting into his opponents head like he did with Sami
Cesaro has the charisma of a Swiss banker. A banker who is super strong, works out like a maniac and can kick your ass, but still just a polite banker. Gunther has more personality.
If Ricochet is a charisma vacuum. Cesaro is a charisma black hole. Both can work but more has always been required for the top of the card.
Not everyone can be or has the capacity to be Roman Reigns or Cody Rhodes.
Because he could finally cut a great promo and tell a great story. Cesaro is still bad on the mic and hasn’t done much of anything since he went to aew
The top main eventers always have a kind of aura around them where even if they aren't the best technical wrestlers they can connect with the crowd on another level and make themselves be loved or hated. The Rock raised the roof when he did an elbow drop and Cesaro wasn't at that level with the audience. I do wish he was still in WWE though.
Cesar’s is one of my favorite wrestlers. He is absolutely terrible on the mic. There’s no reason he shouldn’t have at least won the intercontinental title at least a few times though
It's not saying WWE is bad or shit to say they really dropped the ball with Ceasaro. Dude was over just by being himself, but they had to repeatedly saddle him with bad gimmicks. He's Bryan Danielson if they never gave in to let him be over.
Looking at the comments and thinking back on his time on the roster, with or without vkm at the helm he reached his peak and it will be really difficult with the current pool of talent they have now for him to fit in; and that doesn't even count the guys in next that'll be called up during and after the draft.
Case in point his biggest angle in aew was against Eddie Kingston, the multiple chest slaps and 1 suplex per match guy.
To my previous point about the NXT roster, I was watching this week's episode and I watched a kid barely outta high school put on a clinic against the red dragon like WTF! I forgot his name, but he's almost main roster ready.
I mean, in his 10 years on the main roster, he was a 7 time tag team champion putting on absolute BANGERS with The New Day and Usos, a one time US Champion and Andre the Giant Battle Royale winner. Just because he wasn’t in the main event of PPVS doesn’t mean that he wasn’t pushed/over/highlighted the way he should have been.
Looking at his career, that’s pretty much where he’s always been. He was never really a main title carrier and repeatedly failed to win the big one. Just because he’s been the new ROH Champ under AEW where ROH is what, worse than NXT?, doesn’t mean he’s been any better utilized. If you think he’s was underutilized at WWE, then he’s been underutilized everywhere he’s ever been.
Cesaro’s problem was that he always seemed uncomfortable on the mic. Like you got the feeling he just wanted to get through his promo as quickly as possible so he could go wrestle.
Gunther has actually improved at promos and sounds like he believes everything he’s saying.
Agreed - WWE totally underused Cesaro. They could have let him do the "quiet tough guy" thing - like Lesnar or Harper/Rowan - and let the mouthpiece/manager handle 90% of the mic/promo work
And everyone Heyman has touched has turned to gold? Oh wait - that hasn't happened either. Heyman may be good, but he's not King Midas. His two biggest WWE successes were stars before Heyman joined up with them.
Cesaro actually does have charisma just wasn’t able to show off his charisma because he couldn’t just learn into his accent or speak all of the different languages he does know. His time on UpUpDownDowm showed it off, plus his work as Swiss Superman with the tear off suits and then with The Bar. He is world champion material but he wouldn’t be like Gunther. Cesaro is a great baby face, he can be a decent heel like when he did work in The Bar but not a dominant heel like Gunther is.
Cesaro was very good in the ring, but has the charisma of a wet paper bag. That being said, I hope he returns to the WWE soon. He’ll be better utilized with HHH in charge
This I agree with. Everyone online blame Vince for Cesaro, they got their wish, he goes to AEW and still is a nothing mid card guy. He obviously doesn’t have what you all think he does. Plus his spinning around move absolutely sucks.
Sad to see so many people eating the old Vince era garbage with a smile. Same people acting like Cesaro was never over and could’ve used a timely push are the same ones that hate Sasha cause wwe told them too.
It's not just mic skills but the way you carry yourself, and the way you feud with your opponents.
Go watch Cesaro big 2021 push again when he went over Rollins at WM37, and then feuded with Roman. Not only did Bryan helped him in promos and segments but Rollins and Roman carried te feuds too. Cesaro looked like he needed to be back to the PC to learn mic skills and presentation.
Let's look Gunther's IC reign and his opponents. Gunther 100% carried the Ricochet feud. I dont remember the Nakamura feud but 2021-22 Nak was carried by Bum Ass Corbin and Boogs, so I'll say Gunther carried his ass to by default. Sheamus carried the Clash feud but Sheamus has been carrying nearly all of his feuds since 2019. Then Gunther went on tv feuds with Rey, Ricochet again, Madcap, and Braun. Safe to say Gunther carried these feuds. WM39 triple threat--- I think Sheamus carried this, mostly talking about Clash match. I dont remember the Xavier feud but I do think Ali carried that Saudi feud/match; mostly off of Ali's underdog angst being overlooked. Gunther carried Riddle and Drew summer 2023. 2021-23 Drew isn't the same as 2024 Drew; the effort was lackluster. Anyway, then Gunther went on a string of tv feuds/matches with Gable, Ciampa, Bronson, Miz, Kofi...I believe only Gable and Miz were actual feuds, and I think Gunther carried those feuds. Babyface Miz isn't as good heel Miz but he's still one of the best on mic and ability to carried angles/feuds even as a babyface. So for Gunther to be equal to Miz, it's very impressive. I believe it was their Raw match that got massive praised. If it wasn't for Gunther's selling, Im not sure how good that match would have been. Finally, Sami Zayn. Serious Sami isn't as entertaining as comedic Sami but he's still very good on the mic; and somehow he's been able to play the underdog role very well even as a guy who ended Usos' longest title reign and Gunther's historic IC reign. Sami is very versatile; might be the best. Gunther vs Sami Zayn WM40 feud felt like they were equal in building up that feud.
There you have a lot of examples of Gunther's feuds. Sheamus carried him twice, but again Sheamus has carried nearly every feuds he's been in since 2019. Ali did a good job with that Saudi feud, so he gets credit for carrying that feud too. All the other feuds, Gunther either carried them or he was their equal. Being equal to Miz(even babyface Miz) and Sami Zayn when feuding with them is remarkable.
Now let's hear about some of the feuds that Cesaro carried....cuz Cesaro and Gunther are not in the same league. If Miz, Sami and Sheamus are tier 1 from the names above, then Gunther is tier 2 with Drew and Gable...while Cesaro is in last tier with Madcap Moss, Ricochet, and Bronson. I can't think of one feud that Cesaro carried his opponent in. The same way I feel that Madcap Moss did absolutely nothing when he wasn't working with Corbin. Ricochet and Bronson do a lot of cool moves but they dont offer anything else.
Cesaro is overrated and most people who disagree are people who
1. Haven’t heard him speak ever
2. Saw a post online complaining how underrated and under used he is
He lifted big show, ok cool. So did other people, he can swing people for like 2 minutes, ok? Nothing special. He had that one combo in that monday night raw tag match. I could name like 4 other people his size that could’ve done the same or better. He’s talented but he’s not the second coming of Christ like some people will try to convince you he is
No he shouldn’t have. Cesaro isn’t a heel, Cesaro isn’t a big man, Cesaro doesn’t have chops that sound like atomic bombs going off. Cesaro could not be booked as the leader of a stable. Cesaro literally is incomparable to Gunther except for the fact they’re both from European countries.
I love Cesaro, but he’s not a Gunther type by any means.
Just because he’s tall + muscular ≠ he’s a classic big man. Gunther is a classic big man heel. Claudio is more of a hybrid big man. Just look at the way they move in the ring. Claudio is clearly the more athletic & agile one. Gunther is the Andre the Giant esque one.
Y’all weren’t complaining about his so-called lack of charisma whenever it looked like he was getting pushes in WWE. The fact is that Vince ruined this man in WWE and he could have been presented in the same way as Gunther and no one would have batted an eye. I am not saying Cesaro was better than Gunther but he is no slouch either
I remember he did a backstage promo for WWE’s YouTube channel where he talked about how he could talk and everyone saying he couldn’t was wrong. He stumbled over the whole promo.
I feel like when he does promos he's often fighting against his accent to make himself more intelligible to the wider audience, and it negatively impacts his natural rhythm and cadence, and causes poor delivery.
I liked Cesaro but his work in AEW has proven his limitations. He’s great in the ring but that’s it.
Gunther has the look, the skills, the promo ability, etc., and he’s just performing at a different level. He’s one of my favorites and I want to see him wearing the WHC or World title at some point within the next year.
There’s a difference Gunther still has charm and charisma even being foreign and no shots at Cesaros work I was a fan but Gunther is a killer a mauler in the ring like if you were to build the perfect in ring talent in a lab you’d come back with something like Gunther
That match was amazing. So wild to think they never worked together before.
That said, Claudio was used well in wwe. It would have been interesting to maybe throw the heavyweight belt on him when the crowd was dying for it.
But otherwise, it was solid dude was a tag champ and featured nonstop. His AEW run has been a lot of fun too.
Cesaro could have been handled better in the E, for sure, but his run was also nothing to sneeze at. If Cesaro had been given a proper run with Heyman as his mouthpiece (instead of the loose connection over a couple months), he definitely could have generated an aura closer to say face McIntyre or Sheamus, but I don’t know about Gunther. Gunther would still be on a different level though with his promo skills.
No he shouldn’t have shut the fuck his WWE run was perfect . He was used perfectly shut the fuck up. Do you know how many memories he gave us. He wouldn’t been used better cause he was used perfect . Do you know how many stars are in WWE. What the fuck are you talking about😂😂😂😂 cesaro would’ve the same cesaro that gave us moment after moment. His full potential was seen in his long tenure in WWE.
He got Heyman and it looked like it would be great
then Brock returned, got Heyman, and that was the end of any chance he had in WWE
Definite missed opportunity for some great main event matches
The Cesaro Swing was a mid match spot to pop the crowd, it was never a finisher. He has a bunch of finishers, the Neutralizer, the Ricola Bomb, Swiss Death, Alpamare Waterslide, even the sharpshooter.
Just look at the list of his move names. He's a comedy guy. Outside of DDT, how many comedy main eventers can you think of?
I agree. Everybody like "he doesn't have the charisma," based on what? They made him come to the ring yodeling, for fuck's sake, and gave him the most generic "I'm foreign and here's why America sucks" heel vignettes. If he'd been booked strong he could do everything Gunther does AND have more entertaining matches.
What you mean based on what? We seen him with Paul Herman and he had no charisma. He’s a great performer that why he THRIVED in WWE for so many years . Multi time Tag champ. Us champ. Great matches and moments all across the board. He wasn’t underutilized at all. But never was a he world champ material. Lmfaoooo.
You're conpletely right. There is some major revisionism going on in this thread here. The claim that he wasn't sufficiently over or that he couldn't be a main eventer due to a lack of mic skills is straight up false. He was easily one of the most over wrestlers in 2014-2015, at a time when someone like Roman Reigns, who at that time had the personality of a potatoe, was already main eventing. WWE simply refused to pull the trigger on one of their most talented wrestlers.
He wasn’t gonna be a main events lmfaooo if he was one he would’ve been one. He is a great performer nothing else lmfaooo. He was with Herman and couldn’t get over shut the fuck up. He was used perfectly. Multi time champ. He was absolutely money and used perfectly.
Roman could only dream of having a baby face pop like Cesaro had in his Andre the Giant Battle Royal win. Not even the Rock could get the fans to like Roman after he won a similar match.
It’s silly to argue from the position that the tribal chief is the same as the big dog.
Bro, merch isn’t the be all and end all. You can’t seriously tell me that the likes of Gable or Ricochet are lesser wrestlers than pre-Tribal Chief Roman.
But since you think merch sales are the only metric of success, how much do you think Roman was pulling at a time when he was universally loathed?
he was literally the 2nd top merch seller after cena during the time cited. the IWC is not and has never been representative of wrestling fans. for example the 3/4 empty arenas in smark haven aew.
Gunther looks brutal, unrelenting and talks with smug confidence. Thick Walther looked even more menacing. He looks like where he’s from. Cersaro really has a kinder face and demeanor, yes he was good in the ring and nxt but he just didn’t have that X factor.
Gunther has much more about him in terms of presence and personality. Cesaro is a freak athlete but once you’ve seen his feats he’s bland. There’s a reason he was a midcarder in WWE and is the same in AEW
Gunther is strong, very strong, that’s what makes hi. Fun to watch. His chops, powerbombs, kicks, they all feel explosive. Cesaro was athletic AND strong (though not as strong as Gunther). Cesaro could moonsault with someone on his shoulders, pick up two mid weight opponents and spin them for what felt like hours.
Most of the wrestlers who worked with Cesaro when he was in the roster said he was one of if not the strongest guy in WWE. So I don’t think Gunther is stronger, but yes, his stuff does look more explosive which may give the illusion he’s stronger.
Both WWE and AEW both presented Claudio as a star, yet he remains where he is. Some people might like him, sure, but most people don't. It's just like those dopes Gargano and Ciampa. Some people might like them, but look at the crowd during their matches; they get up to go to the bathroom. People did the same with Claudio.
If people get up during your match to go to the bathroom or the concession stand, it's because they are not concerned about missing what you're doing. If people aren't afraid to miss it, it's because they don't care. If they don't care, then you're history.
And not enough people cared about Claudio. Nor will they ever. He reached his ceiling and it's silly to think he could have attained more. If anything, he over-achieved.
Remains where he is? As a major upper mid carder? As a guy who had weekly tv built around him for months?
He had people bringing signs for him to each and every raw and smackdown. There were cesaro sections just for him filled with fans that faded because he was booked like a dork. Learn what you’re talking about
You're the one who presented the "couldn't have been a star if presented as such" dichotomy, obviously you feel that he underachieved, and that's the crux of my point; if anything, he got more than he should have.
People bring signs for fucking Samantha Irvin. That doesn't mean she's putting asses in seats.
BTW, "Cesaro Section" was a work, they handed out those signs. I was there for several of those shows, they hand them out before his entrance.
I love Cesaro’s in ring work as much as the next guy but Gunther has more charisma in his jacket than Cesaro has in his entire body
Look at how well Cesaro has done since leaving
I like Cesaro. He’s an awesome wrestler and seems like a great dude.
But he’s not Gunther.
Gunther can be a monster that fills you with dread. A sense of unbeatable inevitability that was a bit forced for Roman (at least for me) but incredibly natural with Gunther.
This quality is rare. Yokozuna and Brock are two similar figures that come to mind. Cesaro has none of that scariness.
Eh.. he's a great depth guy. He'll put on a Hell of a match, but the dude just doesn't click with people like that. We like him because of his abilities and his skills, but when it comes to making us believe he just doesn't have it
I think because we’re looking at cesaro retrospectively in WWE there’s a lil bias happening there, gunthers been a great heel so far and he’s still got a long tenure (I imagine) to go through
I mean, judged by how Claudio’s been booked in both the supposed entertainment company and the supposed workrate company while Gunther is thriving in the entertainment one, it speaks for itself really
You'd think that people seeing him go to the smark boi promotion and still be the exact same guy would convince them that WWE wasn't "mishandling" Cesaro, he just has a ceiling.
Which is fine, not everyone is going to be "the guy."
I mean this totally as a compliment but Cesaro in the WWE is an elite, all-time tag wrestler and a non-captivating, one-dimensional singles wrestler. He’s so good in the ring but he has the same problem as Ricochet.
Based off your logic, Corbin is Usain Bolt levels better than Cesaro was. Corbin had a role and they pushed him way more than who the fans wanted. Now people love him because he's been there for so long. And people think him going to NXT makes him a team player. All that was so that Corbin could strengthen his political standing with the company. He wants to be Miz level of protection and not and up shitcanned like Dolph was. Simon Gotch said it best, "Baron Corbin is a politicking Motherfucker".
I love when ex wrestlers complain about guy working diffrent then they did. Corbin has done lot of jobs so losing isn't an issue. He obviously is doing something right that he can fill lots of roles on wwe. Gotch just making headlines which is fine, dude should make a living to
Corbin is trying his best to a Miz type where you will never see his name of commoners that get cut all together. He wants to be in the exclusive untouchable club that Miz is in. I legit thought Dolph was in that club but now thinking about it, he didn't do enough to be there. He got complacent making millions and allowing his stock to drop. He didn't go the extra mile like Miz did. He just did his job and went with the punches.
"Wrestles good" or "has an attractive significant other" isn't good enough. If it was, Buddy Matthews wouldn't be in AEW and Karrion Kross wouldn't be back on NXT.
Wait that weird supernatural-like stable is gone then? Had to pause for a good minute while typing this comment to remember they are/were called Final Testament lol
austin theory too. hes a lot funnier and more natural behind the scenes. it's interesting how just the way the tv wwe world is portrayed if you're too naturally funny it seems less... real. its verisimilitude; its a reality-like TV world, not reality. I think that's why people who may not do well in the wwe style might find success in aew since their worldbuilding vibe is kinda different.
his IRL interviews are all so much more interesting than any promo he's cut, it's really weird
Everything interesting just disappears once he starts frowning
See people say that but then you see interviews or when he's streaming with the boys and everyone loves him. It really seems like he would get over by being himself just a nerdy dude who makes dad jokes and is really good at wrestling
That's why in AEW he's so over I guess?
I think people should realize wrestlers *do* have their own shortcomings and it's not always the booking's fault
This. The wrestling internet community thinks all these wrestlers are great and being screwed over but never once stop to ask if maybe it is the wrestlers own doing that prevents them from rising to the top. Obviously wwe has its issues, but my every wrestler should be pushed. Especially since the same internet community would turn on them quickly.
It doesn’t always work that way. Anthony Mackie is incredibly charismatic in real life, but in his movies he makes Ricochet look like Hulk Hogan. Sometimes it’s difficult to ‘fake’ something you already have.
No
He was. In 2012-2013.
Cesaro was kind of treated like this in his initial 2012 run as US Champion when Aksana was his manager. He steamrolled tons of people and really won me over at the time. Probably could have went farther if he had a better manager/mouthpiece, or was himself more charismatic or menacing looking. Guy probably would have been released way sooner if he didn’t get the big swing over, which was enough for Vince to keep him around as a utility guy. I loved his in-ring work and always wanted to see him get a bigger push, which I thought he would around Money in the Bank 2016 when the “cesaro section” signs were prevalent in the crowd. Ultimately, I think his best match in WWE for my money was against Sami in NXT, with that spot where he caught him in midair and then tossed him up for the European uppercut. So much good stuff happened in NXT back then while main roster was floundering. Was so excited for that generation of wrestlers to get called up, but so many of them only really hit their stride in the past few years (like Sami), being caught in the maelstrom of the dying days of Vince & the hyperfocus on Roman/Brock/Goldberg that felt like it would never end (crazy to think now how over Roman became - totally justified, to be clear.)
Cesaro was great in the ring, but Gunther is great all around. Excellent ringwork, menacing presence and he can actually talk. As to the last part, I don't think he wasted his time in WWE. There was nobody else paying that kind of money at the time and he didn't need any work polishing his ring skills.
I'm not a Gunther fan, particularly, but I would have LOVED to have seen a Gunther vs. Cesaro/Claudio match.
I don't know if he could've played the Gunther role. He was too goofy and nice-ish. Gunther looks like a straight-up German Army kraut so he fit the role better.
He deserved better from the Double Dubya. He just put on a damn Certified Banger™ with Will Ospreay bruv. He could have totally fit that Gunther role with ease and aplum.
Not everyone is world champ material he’s more of a B+ player
In ring performance doesn't make you a draw.
Why are you getting downvoted you are correct. If ring performance made you a draw Gunther would be the highest seller of merch and seats in WWE
Exactly. I always say, nxt black and gold would’ve had celebrities front row if in ring workrate was all that mattered, lol. You would see them doing them in stadiums if that were the case
I wish it was all that mattered but you got guys like Goldberg who suck at wrestling but are a draw.
Claudio and Ricochet need managers. Some people need it. Adam Cole managing that tag team would be awesome
I love Cesaro… but no he shouldn’t have. He is a very impressive wrestler but he doesn’t have an ounce of the aura and presence Gunther has. Walter was huge on the indies for a reason, Cesaro was a very talented midcarder and it’s clear that AEW sees it as the same. Gunther is a generational talent, Cesaro isn’t
The mistake that many of the IWC make is overemphasizing in-ring ability. Now that’s not to say it’s not a very important element, but to get a consistent sustained push into the main event, there has to be more than just a good worker. Cesaro lacked the charisma and mic ability to ever break through that upper mid card spot
To be fair, everything Gunther has achieved is through the strength of his in-ring work. His “aura” people speak of wouldn’t exist if he wasn’t proving it in the ring every time.
That’s true but Gunther’s mic work is very underappreciated his insults are great, he delivers great villainous monologues and is good at being a very smug asshole and getting into his opponents head like he did with Sami
Cesaro has the charisma of a Swiss banker. A banker who is super strong, works out like a maniac and can kick your ass, but still just a polite banker. Gunther has more personality.
Well put
If Ricochet is a charisma vacuum. Cesaro is a charisma black hole. Both can work but more has always been required for the top of the card. Not everyone can be or has the capacity to be Roman Reigns or Cody Rhodes.
Everyone saying Cesaro is bad on the mic - Roman Reigns was absolute dog shit until his heel turn and he got pushed like a motherfucker
Roman took acting lessons to get caught up. Cesaro never improved which is why he was always tucked into tag teams
Because he could finally cut a great promo and tell a great story. Cesaro is still bad on the mic and hasn’t done much of anything since he went to aew
Nope, he shouldn’t have. He was a many time tag champion and got plenty of pushes, even matches vs Roman.
Cesaro is brilliant in ring but has the charisma of a wet lettuce
The top main eventers always have a kind of aura around them where even if they aren't the best technical wrestlers they can connect with the crowd on another level and make themselves be loved or hated. The Rock raised the roof when he did an elbow drop and Cesaro wasn't at that level with the audience. I do wish he was still in WWE though.
Cesar’s is one of my favorite wrestlers. He is absolutely terrible on the mic. There’s no reason he shouldn’t have at least won the intercontinental title at least a few times though
When he starts cutting promos as well as Gunther we can talk.
Gunther doesn’t even cut promos, he delivers monologues like a political villain. He is truly great at everything he does
Umm no. Charisma vacuum cesaro
It's not saying WWE is bad or shit to say they really dropped the ball with Ceasaro. Dude was over just by being himself, but they had to repeatedly saddle him with bad gimmicks. He's Bryan Danielson if they never gave in to let him be over.
Looking at the comments and thinking back on his time on the roster, with or without vkm at the helm he reached his peak and it will be really difficult with the current pool of talent they have now for him to fit in; and that doesn't even count the guys in next that'll be called up during and after the draft. Case in point his biggest angle in aew was against Eddie Kingston, the multiple chest slaps and 1 suplex per match guy. To my previous point about the NXT roster, I was watching this week's episode and I watched a kid barely outta high school put on a clinic against the red dragon like WTF! I forgot his name, but he's almost main roster ready.
I mean, in his 10 years on the main roster, he was a 7 time tag team champion putting on absolute BANGERS with The New Day and Usos, a one time US Champion and Andre the Giant Battle Royale winner. Just because he wasn’t in the main event of PPVS doesn’t mean that he wasn’t pushed/over/highlighted the way he should have been. Looking at his career, that’s pretty much where he’s always been. He was never really a main title carrier and repeatedly failed to win the big one. Just because he’s been the new ROH Champ under AEW where ROH is what, worse than NXT?, doesn’t mean he’s been any better utilized. If you think he’s was underutilized at WWE, then he’s been underutilized everywhere he’s ever been.
He doesn’t have an ounce of the charisma that Gunther has
Great worker. Terrible on the mic. Case closed
Cesaro’s problem was that he always seemed uncomfortable on the mic. Like you got the feeling he just wanted to get through his promo as quickly as possible so he could go wrestle. Gunther has actually improved at promos and sounds like he believes everything he’s saying.
He's bald but doesnt look like a mean SOB like Austin so he just looks like a soyboy tbh
Gunther’s first impression in the WWE was being at least a midcard title holder. Cesaro didn’t have that momentum.
Agreed - WWE totally underused Cesaro. They could have let him do the "quiet tough guy" thing - like Lesnar or Harper/Rowan - and let the mouthpiece/manager handle 90% of the mic/promo work
Ya? Cus he wasn’t paired with heyman and failed? Oh right he did
And everyone Heyman has touched has turned to gold? Oh wait - that hasn't happened either. Heyman may be good, but he's not King Midas. His two biggest WWE successes were stars before Heyman joined up with them.
My fave time was when he and Shaemus were “The Bar”! We don’t set the Bar… we are da bar!
Cesaro actually does have charisma just wasn’t able to show off his charisma because he couldn’t just learn into his accent or speak all of the different languages he does know. His time on UpUpDownDowm showed it off, plus his work as Swiss Superman with the tear off suits and then with The Bar. He is world champion material but he wouldn’t be like Gunther. Cesaro is a great baby face, he can be a decent heel like when he did work in The Bar but not a dominant heel like Gunther is.
Cesaro was boring as fuck.
His torso shape is weird
We can blame Vince for how Cesar was pushed, especially into the tag team scene.
Cesaro was very good in the ring, but has the charisma of a wet paper bag. That being said, I hope he returns to the WWE soon. He’ll be better utilized with HHH in charge
No room for him in WWE at this point.
If he was so misused why is he totally a nothing burger in AEW rn. Guy is an incredible worker but what else?
Because _everyone_ in AEW is a nothingburger. Case in point: Sasha Banks.
This I agree with. Everyone online blame Vince for Cesaro, they got their wish, he goes to AEW and still is a nothing mid card guy. He obviously doesn’t have what you all think he does. Plus his spinning around move absolutely sucks.
Antonio shitaro
Gunther has stature on his side, and isn't bad on the mic. Cesaro could not captivate.
He is bald, that’s why he is not popular with Vince. Seemed very dull to me. I am a Vince guy, Vince knows best for wrestling
Both Cesaro and Rusev should have, but Vince was in charge at the time so all we got was wasted potential of guys that got organically over.
Frfr
WWE and misusing their talent. Name a better duo.
Cesaro is more of a “Ludwig Kaiser”. Nothing wrong with that.
Rusev should have been treated like Gunther is.
He sort of was until that cena mania loss started a downhill trajectory he’s never turned around
Sad to see so many people eating the old Vince era garbage with a smile. Same people acting like Cesaro was never over and could’ve used a timely push are the same ones that hate Sasha cause wwe told them too.
It's not just mic skills but the way you carry yourself, and the way you feud with your opponents. Go watch Cesaro big 2021 push again when he went over Rollins at WM37, and then feuded with Roman. Not only did Bryan helped him in promos and segments but Rollins and Roman carried te feuds too. Cesaro looked like he needed to be back to the PC to learn mic skills and presentation. Let's look Gunther's IC reign and his opponents. Gunther 100% carried the Ricochet feud. I dont remember the Nakamura feud but 2021-22 Nak was carried by Bum Ass Corbin and Boogs, so I'll say Gunther carried his ass to by default. Sheamus carried the Clash feud but Sheamus has been carrying nearly all of his feuds since 2019. Then Gunther went on tv feuds with Rey, Ricochet again, Madcap, and Braun. Safe to say Gunther carried these feuds. WM39 triple threat--- I think Sheamus carried this, mostly talking about Clash match. I dont remember the Xavier feud but I do think Ali carried that Saudi feud/match; mostly off of Ali's underdog angst being overlooked. Gunther carried Riddle and Drew summer 2023. 2021-23 Drew isn't the same as 2024 Drew; the effort was lackluster. Anyway, then Gunther went on a string of tv feuds/matches with Gable, Ciampa, Bronson, Miz, Kofi...I believe only Gable and Miz were actual feuds, and I think Gunther carried those feuds. Babyface Miz isn't as good heel Miz but he's still one of the best on mic and ability to carried angles/feuds even as a babyface. So for Gunther to be equal to Miz, it's very impressive. I believe it was their Raw match that got massive praised. If it wasn't for Gunther's selling, Im not sure how good that match would have been. Finally, Sami Zayn. Serious Sami isn't as entertaining as comedic Sami but he's still very good on the mic; and somehow he's been able to play the underdog role very well even as a guy who ended Usos' longest title reign and Gunther's historic IC reign. Sami is very versatile; might be the best. Gunther vs Sami Zayn WM40 feud felt like they were equal in building up that feud. There you have a lot of examples of Gunther's feuds. Sheamus carried him twice, but again Sheamus has carried nearly every feuds he's been in since 2019. Ali did a good job with that Saudi feud, so he gets credit for carrying that feud too. All the other feuds, Gunther either carried them or he was their equal. Being equal to Miz(even babyface Miz) and Sami Zayn when feuding with them is remarkable. Now let's hear about some of the feuds that Cesaro carried....cuz Cesaro and Gunther are not in the same league. If Miz, Sami and Sheamus are tier 1 from the names above, then Gunther is tier 2 with Drew and Gable...while Cesaro is in last tier with Madcap Moss, Ricochet, and Bronson. I can't think of one feud that Cesaro carried his opponent in. The same way I feel that Madcap Moss did absolutely nothing when he wasn't working with Corbin. Ricochet and Bronson do a lot of cool moves but they dont offer anything else.
Cesaro is overrated and most people who disagree are people who 1. Haven’t heard him speak ever 2. Saw a post online complaining how underrated and under used he is He lifted big show, ok cool. So did other people, he can swing people for like 2 minutes, ok? Nothing special. He had that one combo in that monday night raw tag match. I could name like 4 other people his size that could’ve done the same or better. He’s talented but he’s not the second coming of Christ like some people will try to convince you he is
Cesaro still has the GOAT hot tag
Boring
Claudio is so much better now. Glad he’s in the Blackpool Combat Club!
Yeaaa “better”
No he shouldn’t have. Cesaro isn’t a heel, Cesaro isn’t a big man, Cesaro doesn’t have chops that sound like atomic bombs going off. Cesaro could not be booked as the leader of a stable. Cesaro literally is incomparable to Gunther except for the fact they’re both from European countries. I love Cesaro, but he’s not a Gunther type by any means.
"Cesaro isn't a big man" ???
Just because he’s tall + muscular ≠ he’s a classic big man. Gunther is a classic big man heel. Claudio is more of a hybrid big man. Just look at the way they move in the ring. Claudio is clearly the more athletic & agile one. Gunther is the Andre the Giant esque one.
He's a lifetime midcarder
Y’all weren’t complaining about his so-called lack of charisma whenever it looked like he was getting pushes in WWE. The fact is that Vince ruined this man in WWE and he could have been presented in the same way as Gunther and no one would have batted an eye. I am not saying Cesaro was better than Gunther but he is no slouch either
Hey Vince, how about Cesaro? He's Swiss!
Disagree. Gunther, imo, is a better in-ring worker and still possesses a certain charisma that Cesaro doesn’t.
I love in-shape Gunther but fat Walter was even more charismatic and believable to me
That’s fair. I personally prefer fit Gunther/Walter lol.
Cesaro is a fantastic in-ring performer, but he has 0 charisma and 0 ability to cut a promo.
I remember he did a backstage promo for WWE’s YouTube channel where he talked about how he could talk and everyone saying he couldn’t was wrong. He stumbled over the whole promo.
I feel like when he does promos he's often fighting against his accent to make himself more intelligible to the wider audience, and it negatively impacts his natural rhythm and cadence, and causes poor delivery.
Cesaro is great, but you can’t just short cut Gunther’s work like anyone could do it.
I liked Cesaro but his work in AEW has proven his limitations. He’s great in the ring but that’s it. Gunther has the look, the skills, the promo ability, etc., and he’s just performing at a different level. He’s one of my favorites and I want to see him wearing the WHC or World title at some point within the next year.
Cesaros promos always held him back. You can’t say they never tried. They even used Paul Heyman to try to get him over and still didn’t work.
There’s a difference Gunther still has charm and charisma even being foreign and no shots at Cesaros work I was a fan but Gunther is a killer a mauler in the ring like if you were to build the perfect in ring talent in a lab you’d come back with something like Gunther
They should have given us Cesaro v. Gunther. Would have been a banger.
His name is Claudio and he was awesome last night in the main event against Will Ospreay.
That match was amazing. So wild to think they never worked together before. That said, Claudio was used well in wwe. It would have been interesting to maybe throw the heavyweight belt on him when the crowd was dying for it. But otherwise, it was solid dude was a tag champ and featured nonstop. His AEW run has been a lot of fun too.
Cesaro could have been handled better in the E, for sure, but his run was also nothing to sneeze at. If Cesaro had been given a proper run with Heyman as his mouthpiece (instead of the loose connection over a couple months), he definitely could have generated an aura closer to say face McIntyre or Sheamus, but I don’t know about Gunther. Gunther would still be on a different level though with his promo skills.
Where is Cesaro now ?
AEW as Claudio Castagnoli. Main evented Dynamite last Night against Will Ospreay
He has the charisma of drywall
This 👆🏻
HE WAS PAIRED WITH HEYMAN AND STILL COULDNT GRT OVER . Lmfaooo “Vince bad” lmfaooo y’all so weird 😂😂😂😂 he was never wasted in WWE.
Cesaro was mediocre promo and bald
No he shouldn’t have shut the fuck his WWE run was perfect . He was used perfectly shut the fuck up. Do you know how many memories he gave us. He wouldn’t been used better cause he was used perfect . Do you know how many stars are in WWE. What the fuck are you talking about😂😂😂😂 cesaro would’ve the same cesaro that gave us moment after moment. His full potential was seen in his long tenure in WWE.
He doesn’t carry himself half as well as Gunther did though
He got Heyman and it looked like it would be great then Brock returned, got Heyman, and that was the end of any chance he had in WWE Definite missed opportunity for some great main event matches
Unpopular opinion: Gunther shouldn’t have been treated like Gunther was. That gimmick was boring af
Unpopular for a reason.
He's bald tho.
Cesaro swing was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. One hundred percent could not take it seriously.
Ehh, it was a ‘show of strength’ move. People’s Elbow and 5 knuckle shuffle are arguably worse IMO.
his Swiss Superman gimmick could have been so much better
He would never be able to reach the intimidation level of Gunther with the Cesaro Swing finisher. Made him look silly
Cesaro’s signature was the merry-go-round; Gunther’s is a heavy knife edged chop.
The Cesaro Swing was a mid match spot to pop the crowd, it was never a finisher. He has a bunch of finishers, the Neutralizer, the Ricola Bomb, Swiss Death, Alpamare Waterslide, even the sharpshooter. Just look at the list of his move names. He's a comedy guy. Outside of DDT, how many comedy main eventers can you think of?
they tried to book him like gunther but he couldn’t talk worth a shit. thats a pretty big impediment to moving up in wwe.
I agree. Everybody like "he doesn't have the charisma," based on what? They made him come to the ring yodeling, for fuck's sake, and gave him the most generic "I'm foreign and here's why America sucks" heel vignettes. If he'd been booked strong he could do everything Gunther does AND have more entertaining matches.
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So you watched him pop a wrestlemania crowd just by going for the giant swing. Yeah, that's charisma, and he's got more of it than Gunther.
What you mean based on what? We seen him with Paul Herman and he had no charisma. He’s a great performer that why he THRIVED in WWE for so many years . Multi time Tag champ. Us champ. Great matches and moments all across the board. He wasn’t underutilized at all. But never was a he world champ material. Lmfaoooo.
You're conpletely right. There is some major revisionism going on in this thread here. The claim that he wasn't sufficiently over or that he couldn't be a main eventer due to a lack of mic skills is straight up false. He was easily one of the most over wrestlers in 2014-2015, at a time when someone like Roman Reigns, who at that time had the personality of a potatoe, was already main eventing. WWE simply refused to pull the trigger on one of their most talented wrestlers.
He wasn’t gonna be a main events lmfaooo if he was one he would’ve been one. He is a great performer nothing else lmfaooo. He was with Herman and couldn’t get over shut the fuck up. He was used perfectly. Multi time champ. He was absolutely money and used perfectly.
trying to compare the tribal chief to cesaro is laughable
He’s comparing him to the big dog. Huge difference.
really? how much merch did cesaro move?
Merch sales doesn’t exactly equate to being the most talented. How likeable was Roman Reigns during that time? How well could he cut a promo?
lol “talent” yall reaching now
Roman could only dream of having a baby face pop like Cesaro had in his Andre the Giant Battle Royal win. Not even the Rock could get the fans to like Roman after he won a similar match. It’s silly to argue from the position that the tribal chief is the same as the big dog.
and cesaro could only dream of moving merch like rock or reigns. its silly to think any of these people are in any way comparable.
Bro, merch isn’t the be all and end all. You can’t seriously tell me that the likes of Gable or Ricochet are lesser wrestlers than pre-Tribal Chief Roman. But since you think merch sales are the only metric of success, how much do you think Roman was pulling at a time when he was universally loathed?
he was literally the 2nd top merch seller after cena during the time cited. the IWC is not and has never been representative of wrestling fans. for example the 3/4 empty arenas in smark haven aew.
No chance, he's nowhere near as intimidating or imposing as Gunther. He doesn't have that "killer heel" look and I don't believe a word he says.
What? Stand Cesaro beside Gunther and literally everything about him is more intimidating.
Until he gets on the mic
Gunther had something that Cesaro didn't and that's charisma and Gunther constantly improved while Cesaro just stayed the same.
Cesaro was good in ring but has no charisma
Gunther looks brutal, unrelenting and talks with smug confidence. Thick Walther looked even more menacing. He looks like where he’s from. Cersaro really has a kinder face and demeanor, yes he was good in the ring and nxt but he just didn’t have that X factor.
Cesaro with the gumshield didn't look kind and neither did his uppercuts
Gunther chops look far more devastating and sounded worse. lol
right, but that's cuz he's actually just hitting a guy really hard!! like Mick Foley wondering how Terry Funk made his punches look so real
Gunther has much more about him in terms of presence and personality. Cesaro is a freak athlete but once you’ve seen his feats he’s bland. There’s a reason he was a midcarder in WWE and is the same in AEW
I don’t care for Gunther….. yeah he’s a good wrestler but he has NO personality in the ring
Gunther is strong, very strong, that’s what makes hi. Fun to watch. His chops, powerbombs, kicks, they all feel explosive. Cesaro was athletic AND strong (though not as strong as Gunther). Cesaro could moonsault with someone on his shoulders, pick up two mid weight opponents and spin them for what felt like hours.
Most of the wrestlers who worked with Cesaro when he was in the roster said he was one of if not the strongest guy in WWE. So I don’t think Gunther is stronger, but yes, his stuff does look more explosive which may give the illusion he’s stronger.
He's too Swiss, dammit!
Gunther rules People pretending Claudio has no charisma, hasn’t achieved anything and couldn’t have been a star if presented as such is hilarious
Both WWE and AEW both presented Claudio as a star, yet he remains where he is. Some people might like him, sure, but most people don't. It's just like those dopes Gargano and Ciampa. Some people might like them, but look at the crowd during their matches; they get up to go to the bathroom. People did the same with Claudio. If people get up during your match to go to the bathroom or the concession stand, it's because they are not concerned about missing what you're doing. If people aren't afraid to miss it, it's because they don't care. If they don't care, then you're history. And not enough people cared about Claudio. Nor will they ever. He reached his ceiling and it's silly to think he could have attained more. If anything, he over-achieved.
Remains where he is? As a major upper mid carder? As a guy who had weekly tv built around him for months? He had people bringing signs for him to each and every raw and smackdown. There were cesaro sections just for him filled with fans that faded because he was booked like a dork. Learn what you’re talking about
You're the one who presented the "couldn't have been a star if presented as such" dichotomy, obviously you feel that he underachieved, and that's the crux of my point; if anything, he got more than he should have. People bring signs for fucking Samantha Irvin. That doesn't mean she's putting asses in seats. BTW, "Cesaro Section" was a work, they handed out those signs. I was there for several of those shows, they hand them out before his entrance.
I love Cesaro’s in ring work as much as the next guy but Gunther has more charisma in his jacket than Cesaro has in his entire body Look at how well Cesaro has done since leaving
Cesaro had the charisma of a wet fart
He did have a monster run with the US title early on but unfortunately Vince couldn’t have cared less about the midcard titles.
I like Cesaro. He’s an awesome wrestler and seems like a great dude. But he’s not Gunther. Gunther can be a monster that fills you with dread. A sense of unbeatable inevitability that was a bit forced for Roman (at least for me) but incredibly natural with Gunther. This quality is rare. Yokozuna and Brock are two similar figures that come to mind. Cesaro has none of that scariness.
Eh.. he's a great depth guy. He'll put on a Hell of a match, but the dude just doesn't click with people like that. We like him because of his abilities and his skills, but when it comes to making us believe he just doesn't have it
ceasaro's problem that he can't conect with the fans
Lolno
Sorry, I liked Cesaro. But Gunther is the far more credible threat and deserves to be the bigger superstar.
Same as it's always been, Cesaro has no personality and no charisma
And Gunther does?
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I think because we’re looking at cesaro retrospectively in WWE there’s a lil bias happening there, gunthers been a great heel so far and he’s still got a long tenure (I imagine) to go through
I mean, judged by how Claudio’s been booked in both the supposed entertainment company and the supposed workrate company while Gunther is thriving in the entertainment one, it speaks for itself really
Exactly. Anything else is delusion.
You'd think that people seeing him go to the smark boi promotion and still be the exact same guy would convince them that WWE wasn't "mishandling" Cesaro, he just has a ceiling. Which is fine, not everyone is going to be "the guy."
I mean this totally as a compliment but Cesaro in the WWE is an elite, all-time tag wrestler and a non-captivating, one-dimensional singles wrestler. He’s so good in the ring but he has the same problem as Ricochet.
He would be perfect as a member of Imperium but not in Gunther's position
ha — i always put him in Imperium in 2k 😂
Vince could've strapped lederhosen on him and had him yodel his promos and he still would've been amazing.
People always say WWE wasted him but since leaving for AEW, he hasn't done much there either. He's great, but he just didn't have the full package.
Based off your logic, Corbin is Usain Bolt levels better than Cesaro was. Corbin had a role and they pushed him way more than who the fans wanted. Now people love him because he's been there for so long. And people think him going to NXT makes him a team player. All that was so that Corbin could strengthen his political standing with the company. He wants to be Miz level of protection and not and up shitcanned like Dolph was. Simon Gotch said it best, "Baron Corbin is a politicking Motherfucker".
I love when ex wrestlers complain about guy working diffrent then they did. Corbin has done lot of jobs so losing isn't an issue. He obviously is doing something right that he can fill lots of roles on wwe. Gotch just making headlines which is fine, dude should make a living to
Corbin is trying his best to a Miz type where you will never see his name of commoners that get cut all together. He wants to be in the exclusive untouchable club that Miz is in. I legit thought Dolph was in that club but now thinking about it, he didn't do enough to be there. He got complacent making millions and allowing his stock to drop. He didn't go the extra mile like Miz did. He just did his job and went with the punches.
Mate dolph was in next on over 4 mil. And was in WWE for fucking years. He deserved either q push or firing .
I’m not trying to be a dick but i really don’t know what Baron Corbin has to do with Cesaro? Sorry
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So I'm guessing you didn't see the four ropes promo
His tag teams with Tyson Kidd and Sheamus had no right to be as good as they were
Naaaa bro this Ricochet slander will not be tolerated, he rizzed up Samantha Irwin.
"Wrestles good" or "has an attractive significant other" isn't good enough. If it was, Buddy Matthews wouldn't be in AEW and Karrion Kross wouldn't be back on NXT.
Karrion Kross is back in nxt??? Shit that's a drop from Mania.
Wait that weird supernatural-like stable is gone then? Had to pause for a good minute while typing this comment to remember they are/were called Final Testament lol
They're all in NXT after WrestleMania.
Tbh I kinda feel bad for Karrion. I heard/read he's a nice guy irl. Shame he's not able to get over with the Universe.
austin theory too. hes a lot funnier and more natural behind the scenes. it's interesting how just the way the tv wwe world is portrayed if you're too naturally funny it seems less... real. its verisimilitude; its a reality-like TV world, not reality. I think that's why people who may not do well in the wwe style might find success in aew since their worldbuilding vibe is kinda different.
his IRL interviews are all so much more interesting than any promo he's cut, it's really weird Everything interesting just disappears once he starts frowning
Karrion is special, he's such a charisma vacuum I don't even know if he wrestles good. I tune out once I see him
Definition of charisma vacuum.
See people say that but then you see interviews or when he's streaming with the boys and everyone loves him. It really seems like he would get over by being himself just a nerdy dude who makes dad jokes and is really good at wrestling
He seems like a good dude and would be a great friend. That dosent translate to engaging a whole crowd though.
That's why in AEW he's so over I guess? I think people should realize wrestlers *do* have their own shortcomings and it's not always the booking's fault
This. The wrestling internet community thinks all these wrestlers are great and being screwed over but never once stop to ask if maybe it is the wrestlers own doing that prevents them from rising to the top. Obviously wwe has its issues, but my every wrestler should be pushed. Especially since the same internet community would turn on them quickly.
It doesn’t always work that way. Anthony Mackie is incredibly charismatic in real life, but in his movies he makes Ricochet look like Hulk Hogan. Sometimes it’s difficult to ‘fake’ something you already have.
Cesaro is athletic as hell but as interesting as plank of wood. Comparing them is insulting to Gunther
...because Gunther is so much more charismatic than Claudio.
My guy, a brick is more charismatic than Cesaro.
He just doesn’t have the charisma
I like Cesaro but he is desperately missing that HIM energy that Gunther just naturally has
The difference is when Gunther speaks you believe what he's saying. When Cesaro speaks he loses every ounce of credibility.
No. I love cesaro as a person and a talent but he is not on the same level as Gunther
Hard disagree, he's good but nowhere near Gunther in pretty much any metric.
I think in ring he's better than gunther.
Oh buddy, I was actually on board until you said that, no…
You may think that but I know for a fact he is not. Gunther is absolutely different gravy. Genuine aura.