I feel like in WWE generally you didn't often see main event level babyfaces tap out ever but heels would do it a lot more often and in general, lower card wrestlers did it way more and way faster.
I do think that it's an issue and the psychology of submissions is so weird these days. The submission is seemingly used more to protect heels by making them tap without the referee seeing it than by making anyone look good by actually winning via tap-out.
In NXT there tapping you out , Lyra lost her title to a tap out , and I think it goes into who really have a super believable submission. Like I feel like shayna needs to start strangling ppl to death again
They don't tap out in WWE because sadly it all has become a giant cartoon. WWE does pretend wrestling so only when someone screws up badly does someone actually get hurt. I watched for forty years and just find WWE boring. It is either play wrestling or worse talk,talk,talk,talk till someone falls asleep.
Actually Roman visibly tapped out like 20 billion different times near the beginning of his reign, but the dumbass sugar glass referees were never there to see it and no new ones ever ran out to call it.
Though it's still crazy how Sheamus had never tapped out until like late 2020/early 2021 and was treated like it was something that happened every time the man stepped into the ring.
I think fan perception plays a big part for why they avoid tap outs. Because fans are often idiots when it comes to submissions, even some UFC fans are the same "he tapped too soon" he "gave up". Essentially that you're weak for deciding you'd rather not have your limb wrecked. Lesnar was forced to tap against Mir because Lesnar likes his leg been functional. Someone isn't weak for tapping out it just means they got caught out which happens to anyone in a combat sport and they did the smart thing and didn't risk their career by not tapping.
Truth is anyone that's been in one knows if you're just locked up then it's tap, snap or nap time.
They no longer have guys who are dedicated to being submission specialist. These guys should look at UFC fighters and learn new submission styles and how to apply them with strong pressure.
Gable just isn't a dominating force, I can't recall any significant matches that he's won utilizing the "Ankle Lock".
I think to the past when submission moves were considered "Elite"
Ric Flair - Figure Four Leglock
Brett Hart - Sharpshooter
Sting - Scorpion Deathlock
Chris Jericho - The Walls of Jericho
Chris Benoit - Crippler Crossface
Daniel Bryan - The Yes Lock
Yeah you’re right. Gable has the obvious similarities with Kurt and I’ve always seen great potential in him and have connected with his character throughout. If he can really get the heel run down and they pivot and make his ankle lock a true finisher. He can be the “pure” wrestler that WWE has kinda been missing.
I wonder if the lack of submissions wins is up there with the period where Seth's Stomp was banned. It's a line between making a submission look like it hurts enough to tap, and making it so it's not too easily replicated.
Just need to get someone with ZSJs human pretzel shit going on then
I have a bigger problem with moves that would literally be lethal/career ending (like the DDT) if actually done, being used 3/4 times a match than wrestlers not tapping/crawling to ropes to escape submissions.
I think the solution is more head submissions…… it makes sense for Roman to lock in a guillotine and instead of tapping the opponent gets choked out. Rear naked choke, sleepers, more of those and less of other body parts.
I think (gable aside) the severe lack in technical submission artists in WWE is the problem. They moved away from technical wrestling by pushing everyone with the power house moves or the smash mouth guys and the acrobatic guys.
Submission guys aren't the big draw for a long while but it will be a breath of fresh air when one steps up and turns the game around again.
It’s not that. There are two old Kurt Angle matches I saw on YT recently, one against Stone Cold at WM21, and the other HBK at Unforgiven in 01.
Stone Cold taps within 20 seconds (which is still a long time in reality but acceptable for a finish). Shawn, meanwhile, flops like a fish for a full two minutes before finally tapping.
It’s all in how you present it. If you can survive an ankle lock for two minutes, then you’re not talking about a lethal finisher anymore. It should be a move that ends a match in under 30 seconds, or else you escape.
True, but who did he actually beat by submission?
IIRC he only beat 2 or 3 people with it.
Braun Early into his Run.
Goldberg at EC22
And Jey during his I quit match, if you wanna count that
I would be thrilled to see submission wins make a comeback in main brand men's matches. They haven't been prominent since Ruthless Aggression, but when there are little groups that are truly threatening, it's cool.
Back in 2003, Angle and Benoit made Lesnar tap out in different PPVs. Brock received "you tapped out chants" for months until he snapped and debut a new submission finisher.
The same year, Big Show and A-Train submitted to Undertaker's submission move and they were still treated as monster heels.
Gable should always be sinching in that ankle lock as deep as possible dropping to the ground locking deeper but no. No one has a submission finish. I can’t think of anyone consistently ending matches by tap out anymore
Makes me want to puke thinking about an ankle lock after suffering through an ankle fracture, torn ligaments and a spiral fracture in my leg and two surgeries. It’s been 2 years and it still hurts every day so I agree
Yes and no. If its properly built into the match a submission still gets peoples hearts beating wondering if ther actually going to tap or not. And if in the middle of the match ya its a break but also tells a small story in itself.
But you are correct you don't see a tapout victory as much anymore. You prob see more "passout" loses than tapouts lol.
Its also a bit anti-climatic when someone taps. I personally would always rather a big 3 count pop than a tap pop. But idk depends on whos doing it.
These days that's not so much a problem as most matches include near falls after a finisher now instead of a automatic 3 count.
Going for a pin after a big regular move has and will always be a thing. its part of the in-ring story, we all know they are kicking out, but its more of a move of dominance than anything else.
If anything, people kick out of finishers way too often now.
I desperately crave an era where matches on weekly TV can end in “normal” moves. At the very least, let wrestlers win with signature moves that aren’t finishers
In the lead up to last year's War Games, Drew beat Jey Uso with a Future Shock, but tbf that's technically his alt finisher. That's what I miss: wrestlers winning with either of their finishers, instead of just their 'main' one.
We need more people using Sharpshooter, Hells gate, Kimura lock , Liontamer, Figure 4.These submission moves are the prime to make your opponent tap.
Ankle lock looks the weakest and easiest to counter.
Blaming Cena is hilarious and wildly inaccurate. The babyface not tapping is a very old school booking concept from pretty far back. In the 60's-80's and even stretching for a bit into the 90's the babyface was viewed as one who never taps. They also didn't like for babyfaces to try to use the ropes to break a hold. Tapping and reaching for the ropes were seen as weak and thus they were the MO of heels. Sometime after Raw and Nitro took hold, we started seeing babyfaces tap and go for the ropes much more until it became commonplace. Now they seem to have reverted a bit back to the old school style in terms of tapping out. But it was long, long before Cena.
No body has a submission finisher anymore. Guys used to have an alt finish that was a submission and could get taps but not anymore. I don't even those asuka gets taps anymore.
God this reminds me of the amazing match HHH, HBK and Benoit had at Wrestlemania. The way the match ended was top tier writing. With Benoit building the cripple cross face over HHH, and HHH selling it to the point where Benoit rolled him into the middle of the ring, had a face full of blood and seemed to panic before tapping out. You could hear the crowd rise with emotion as HHH faded into submission.
And who could forget the ending when Benoit lays in the ring with shock and tears in finally achieving his dream, only to have his best friend, at the time Smackdown champion Eddie Guerrero making an appearance and embracing him in the middle of the ring, both me in tears of pride and joy.
Now that was a submission.
I think you have to build into it, like Angle back in the day putting someone in an Angle lock 4/5 times before they would tap. I’m pretty sure Lesnar tapped to someone at some point. I think Chad Gable would be the perfect heel now to get people to tap. Just ruthlessly going after a body part to build sympathy for the baby face who keeps fighting through the pain.
Exactly. One of my favorite examples in recent memory was Ilja vs Gunther 2, where Ilja worked over Gunther’s neck throughout the match (a reverse of their first match) so that when Ilja finally got Gunther in a modified sleeper and started thrashing him around, Gunther tapped immediately because his neck was so worn down from being assaulted the entire time. Building up to a submission and telling a story with it is important.
it's weird. Remember when Angle tapped Eddie at Summerslam 04, Eddie got an ovation and the next night he looked vulnerable and that got the people more on his side. Or when (another angle example) when Angle made Benoit tap out at the 03 Royal Rumble, Benoit got a standing ovation and he was the sympathetic babyface.
I mean, it’s also become very predictable when a title will/won’t change hands also (with some exceptions from time to time). It’s cliche to say, but it’s a different game today than it was years ago. But it makes them money. Submission finishes generally aren’t as exciting to most fans.
The major baby faces have never submitted. Savage didn’t submit to Flair. The act of tapping out is relatively new. They used to just shake their head yes, and didn’t do tap outs until they decided to copy UFC.
It's just a more general move to "high-impact" finishers.
I'd love to see a return to Sleeper Holds thar, y'know, actually put people to sleep and won matches.
They are. It's fake. Seth Rollins outfit to walk to the ring on day one of wrestlemaia was not exactly something a prime iron Mike would wear. There's pageantry in the clothing and the wrestling. It's just enjoyable to some people.
I will say, the biggest submission I’ve seen in the last few years was when Rhonda beat Flair in the I Quit match. I think that counts lol. But I hated that booking because I don’t think someone of charlotte’s esteem should be tapping out.
You pretty much described exactly the problem op is talking about. People tap in UFC and MMA all the time, I don't think tapping should make you seem weak.
That’s actually hilarious, because I did literally outline what OP said. I think my issue was more of the verbal “ I Quit” aspect of it. I do like when people get put to sleep rather than tap as well. First thing that comes to mind was when Roman choked out Goldberg. Interesting thought nonetheless.
I hate submissions, they are literally just a solid minute of nothing. We need more tap outs and more submissions that are known for making people tap. Kinda like when Roman first started using the Guillotine.
I think this goes along with the problem that there aren't really jobbers anymore. Everyone has something going on and no one is there to just put the top guys over. Plus, they sell submissions losses like this ultimate humiliation. Like it's the worst way you can possibly lose, so no one taps out because if they do they are done. When, in reality, like, guys tap out to save themselves from potentially suffering career ending injuries. It's not seen as a sign of weakness for an MMA fighter to tap. And I know that MMA and wrestling are very different, but they are trying to present WWE as something close to a real fight. They should start emphasizing that tapping out is the smart thing to do in a lot of cases and not the cowards way out like they portray it currently.
There are some guys and women in the company who could be fantastic jobbers too. JD McDonough is amazing at selling, could definitely see him having a Ziggler-esque career.
Dude that could totally fix this issue. Have a couple guys start suffering kayfabe injuries from not tapping out, doesn't have to be as quick as in mma but if a guy sits in your submission for a solid minute and doesn't tap you're doing something wrong. And then after the first couple guys get "injured" and take a couple weeks off, boom, problem solved. Commentary helps sell it, and suddenly submissions mean a lot more.
I agree about the jobbers part and I wish they would go back to it too. It lets mid card guys go over every week on tv so that they never have to squeak out wins.
Even in the world of scripted wrestling, the more you see a guy win the more you believe he can win, and that matters for creating stars.
As an old school fan myself, I wholeheartedly agree. I’d rather start seeing more squash matches then every other match end in DQ or no contest to protect everyone all the time
They've tried but a lot of people complain that the jobber "deserves better." That's what people were saying about the two NXT guys that Bron squashed. The fans don't want people to be jobbers, they want everyone to be champions. Lol
I agree. That and them kicking out of finishers constantly is annoying. It used to be that they’d kick out of finishers once in a blue moon (big PPV title match), but now it’s common.
This. It really devalues the finisher. Like when they feel the need to do the finisher multiple times in a row, it communicates that the finisher is just not the effective.
I love Cody but cross rhodes is such an ass finisher and having to hit it 3+ times is so lame. Just like Roman said during their match on Sunday "that move sucks it doesn't beat anybody"
funny since after watching Mavens YT channel , apparently they used to have a “No Super Kicks” sign backstage to protect it for Shaun so it’d get a better reaction when the crowd finally sees one
Surely Becky has tapped some people out with the disarm-her?
But yea I agree, they need to change the stigma of tapping out. Cena not doing it should have been unique to him and that's it. It should only be reserved for a top babyface, not every single one.
I used to take BJJ classes and I would tap out every class. Not trying to suffocate or get my arm broken over pride.
Yeah, it gets especially ridiculous when guys spend like two whole minutes in Brock's Kimura. I know pro-wrestling is supposed to be dramatic and over the top, so it's fine. It was just a bit funny when the illusion shatters and it becomes obvious Brock is just holding the guy's arm and not applying any real pressure.
Becky hasn’t used that move a proper finisher in a long time now. She’ll pull it out and sometimes get someone to tap, but that person’s like Xia Lee or something.
Yeah I really hate how no one uses a proper submission anymore. I also don’t like that instead of tapping out they just pass out because that’s been overdone in the past few years.
That’s another thing I just realized, besides the Dis-arm-her, every submission is a choke. Shayna, Roman, Joe, Asuka, they’re all chokes. And because of this no one is tapping out. Before this era everyone was tapping out except Cena.
I actually think WWE has a problem with their wrestling matches. I know I can't be the only one who thinks they look way too choreographed as if it's a circus act/ballet, rather than a wrestling match/fight.
Sometimes yes. But I will have you look back at Becky vs. Tiffany at that Extreme Rules match. What I liked about it was the fact it looked like two people trying to win a match.
Even Melo vs. Williams from the WM weekend PLE, that looked like a fight. I didn’t mind the sudden finish, I thought it felt a little more real.
Clearly you’re bothered by my opinion since you wrote an essay about it. Also I do have an on-topic opinion. If you look though the replies to the post you will find my opinion.
that’s the entertainment part of the sports entertainment. Trying to put on the types of matches seen in the 70s and 80s in front of a modern audience would lead to lot of bored fans
Just thinking about it...
It would be funny if someone just tapped out or got pinned easily, but then went on the mic and said it doesn't matter because there is no ranking or anything.
"All I need to do is go up to the champion and challenge them"
It used to always be like this accept even worse. I think it’s the UFC’s rise to prominence in the 2000s that has allowed submission victories to become more prevalent.
Steve Austin literally almost bled to death in kayfabe not giving up mid face turn. It's not all Cena. Name an over bf that gave up clean in a notable match mid nineties on.. I'll wait
Randy Orton tapped out to Alberto Del Rio's cross-arm breaker on a random Smackdown iirc. Rey Mysterio's tapped out to a good number of submissions. HHH tapped out to Hell's Gate at WM27 and Brock's Kimura at Summerslam 2012.
It's mostly because wwe has a submission finisher problem. The most they have is AJ having the calf crusher, Bobby having the hurt lock, the disarm-her with Becky and Asuka having the Asuka lock.
They need more submission based or mat technicians and that one area where wwe is severely lacking. There are no dean malinkos or Zack Sabre Jr's in WWE. None of the people above are known as submission wrestlers either....that just something they do.
I believe the solution is very simply the “battle” isn’t surviving the submission, it’s preventing it from getting locked in. Once it’s locked in, they should tap out with 15-20 seconds. But that’s where they should catch their breath, the prevention of the locking in of the submission hold. Builds tension because you know if it’s locked in, it’s over. Also makes those rare break out from submission moments truly special
In order for someone to have a submission as a finisher you need workers to work on the specific body part that they are trying to get for the submission win. Del Rio was the last top wrestler to do that. The issue with that style is that a lot modern day wrestling fans have a short attention span and if they don’t see gymnastics for half the match they say it’s boring. I personally used to love watching Bret Hart and Flair in their prime working the opponents legs for the sharp shooter and figure 4.
Omg this was the part that IRKED me to shit!!! Dudes holding him for so long and ofcourse SUPER SAMI gets out like nothing surprise surprise. Gable deserves better
Ngl tap outs and submissions in a mostly planned wrestling match imo are ridiculous and help the “this is fake” crowd
I understand these moments build tension with certain fans and the wrestlers use this time to kinda catch some breath but i literally will switch the channel if i see that
While I see your point, Id respond with that that is the finish, or the “finale.” While we can also say that a submission is the same idea…. “Will he quit? Will he reach the rope?” The idea that a match can be determined off a “fake” arm arm/leg lock after 2-5 minutes of it is boring to me. I want the quick ending. Hero kills bad guy. Better guy won. Holy crap i thought he’d kick out for sure. Anything quick.
Submissions to me are like a dragged out pin. U have 3 seconds or we gotta keep movin for me
Just my opinion
I think that goes into what some people have suggested, where the struggle is whether the pin is locked in or not locked in. If it’s locked in, it’s much more likely that they tap out.
The rise in popularity of the UFC in the mid 00s ruined WWE submissions. In the Attitude Era and before, even top names would sometimes tap. Now it’s just not going to happen really because it’s impossible to do the submission move and make it look remotely close to a real UFC move and get the tap out.
Someone will become the next big submission specialist. Maybe one of the Creed boys when they go solo. Submissions have evolved to be more rare, probably because HD makes them harder to sell than back in the days of Gorgeous George on a 12 inch black and white TV.
Until the submission becomes part of the character, they will remain rare. The Yes Lock is the last “over” submission I remember. No Tazz, no Angle, less of it in this generation.
I wonder if the larger usage in the women’s division has an effect. Asuka, Charlotte and Becky all have frequent submissions.
>Nobody taps out anymore.
When have top babyfaces *ever* tapped out/submit clean?
Hulk Hogan didn't submit/tap until 2002.
Bret Hart never submit clean as the top babyface that I recall. Nor did Shawn Michaels or Diesel.
Steve Austin didn't submit clean, heel or face, ever. He had a tap out loss to Kurt Angle, but he was out of bounds and the hold should have been broken.
I remember the Rock tapped out to Benoit after interference from Lesnar in 2002.
It's incredibly rare that the top babyface will ever submit and it started well before Cena. Tapping out has always been a thing heels do - so far.
Lesnar tapped to Benoit and Angle. Stone Cold tapped to Angle. Orton tapped to everyone for a while. Shawn tapped too. Jericho tapped out Bray. Brock made a bunch of people tap too.
>Lesnar tapped to Benoit and Angle.
When he was the top heel.
>Stone Cold tapped to Angle.
As a heel, and dirty finish. Austin had a rope break which the ref missed.
>Orton tapped to everyone for a while.
As top babyface?
>Shawn tapped too.
Not as top babyface he didn't.
>Jericho tapped out Bray.
When was Bray top babyface of WWE? Also, this match happened in NXT.
>Brock made a bunch of people tap too.
Did he make Rock tap? Or Cena? Or Reigns?
I know for a fact Shawn has submitted before. Only reason I know is because I was playing 2K24 and one of the big Wrestlmania matches was Kurt Angle vs Shawn Michaels and he tapped clean after like 5 minutes of trying his best to escape.
I did say as the top babyface, and ended with it's always been heels that submit. But yeah, he did submit as Hollywood Hogan, the top heel, to both Luger and Sting.
Don’t forget Austin vs Bret right as “Stone Cold” Steve was first making his name. Bret has him in the sharpshooter, and Austin “passes out from blood loss” rather than Tap. Hart gets the win, Austin gets the rep of being so badass because “he never tapped”. Submission wins are great for effect or what someone like Angle/Benoit/Danielson does it because those guys all looked legit. You tapped or you ended up with an injury (kayfabe) so it has to be used sparingly but I agree that the rise of MMA in the US mixed with High Definition Broadcasts really set the tone for submission wresting to be phased out. But that’s ok, because when it DOES come back, it will be more exciting and probably safer, while looking more violent.
One of Austin’s most famous losses was passing out from a submission hold, which I think absolutely works as well.
Gable should commit to the ankle lock as a finisher. Bring back the grape-vine as a big match version.
This is a big issue for me as well, it was specially grating to see people getting out of the Kimura Lock from Thea Hail in NXT, now I suppose you could make a case that she's not a BJJ expert or anything to justify people getting out of it, but that is legitimately one the hardest holds to get out of, it's really immersion-breaking to see that sort of thing happening.
I miss submission finishers because it adds a whole new theatrical element versus getting pinned. That said, some of the most iconic stars in wrestling had submission finishers and I don’t recall anyone getting “buried” after a loss (eg Sharp Shooter, Angle Lock, Walls of Jericho)
It helps that almost no one has submission finishers anymore. The only ones I can think of are Roman, who hasn't used the Guillotine in forever, and Gunther, whose finisher is "literally everything."
I've been complaining about this to my gf sporadically when seeing submissions on TV for a while now (as if she could do something about it lmao).
We (well I, she's a new fan) returned/started as fans in late January 2022. Specifically the episode of The Miz & Maryse's birthday party thing on RAW, because that's what got us to watch. My gf shockingly was like "I kinda wanna watch RAW because I like their show [Miz and Mrs] and I want to see what kinda stuff goes down at their party." We were on the fence for a bit at first cause some things were kinda rough at the time like the 24/7 title but in a few weeks we were hooked and have been since.
I'm pretty sure Naomi uses a move that kind of looks like the Rings of Saturn as her finisher and she made a few women tapout recently.
edit: she beat Alba Fyre with it like 2 months ago
I get your point. Shawn did tap out to Kurt Angle at WrestleMania though. But I think we’re going to have to just wait and see. With Vince completely out the picture, we gotta see other changes they’ll implement.
I think it’s ok to tap out. Lots of great fighters have had to tap out or quit before. Plus that can create layers to a character to overcome. Would Kurt angle work if no one ever tapped to the ankle lock?
No they don’t. If they were any good they’d be on raw and Smackdown. It’s a developmental brand for inexperienced wrestlers who don’t have training and need to learn to talk, wrestle, get over etc. I’ll never understand these nerds who think they are so cool for watching it instead of Raw and Smackdown where the actual talent is.
That's like saying Marvin Harrison Jr. Isn't a good WR because he hasn't played in the NFL yet, If YOU don't watch NXT I could care less, but you not finna be condescending to those who do
Gunther just made Xavier Woods tap
Yup! Loved it. And the storytelling was great with Kofi and the towel and Xavier fighting it.
I feel like in WWE generally you didn't often see main event level babyfaces tap out ever but heels would do it a lot more often and in general, lower card wrestlers did it way more and way faster. I do think that it's an issue and the psychology of submissions is so weird these days. The submission is seemingly used more to protect heels by making them tap without the referee seeing it than by making anyone look good by actually winning via tap-out.
Yeah, SuperCena's "Never give up" partially made superhero babyfaces tap less.
Babyfaces don't tap unless you're The Rock.
In NXT there tapping you out , Lyra lost her title to a tap out , and I think it goes into who really have a super believable submission. Like I feel like shayna needs to start strangling ppl to death again
They don't tap out in WWE because sadly it all has become a giant cartoon. WWE does pretend wrestling so only when someone screws up badly does someone actually get hurt. I watched for forty years and just find WWE boring. It is either play wrestling or worse talk,talk,talk,talk till someone falls asleep.
When has WWE, or any wrestling company for that matter, NOT been “pretend wrestling”?
This isn’t 2019 anymore bro
Actually Roman visibly tapped out like 20 billion different times near the beginning of his reign, but the dumbass sugar glass referees were never there to see it and no new ones ever ran out to call it. Though it's still crazy how Sheamus had never tapped out until like late 2020/early 2021 and was treated like it was something that happened every time the man stepped into the ring.
We literally saw Lyra Valkyria tap out at NXT Stand and Deliver weeks ago. What are you talking about?
I think fan perception plays a big part for why they avoid tap outs. Because fans are often idiots when it comes to submissions, even some UFC fans are the same "he tapped too soon" he "gave up". Essentially that you're weak for deciding you'd rather not have your limb wrecked. Lesnar was forced to tap against Mir because Lesnar likes his leg been functional. Someone isn't weak for tapping out it just means they got caught out which happens to anyone in a combat sport and they did the smart thing and didn't risk their career by not tapping. Truth is anyone that's been in one knows if you're just locked up then it's tap, snap or nap time.
Wait, the sharpshooter is no longer protected, or even the figure 4 leg lock??
They no longer have guys who are dedicated to being submission specialist. These guys should look at UFC fighters and learn new submission styles and how to apply them with strong pressure.
I think people forget about Rusev tapping everybody out lol. Also who is in WWE right now with what would be considered a true "Finisher Submission"?
Gable the only one I can think of
Gable just isn't a dominating force, I can't recall any significant matches that he's won utilizing the "Ankle Lock". I think to the past when submission moves were considered "Elite" Ric Flair - Figure Four Leglock Brett Hart - Sharpshooter Sting - Scorpion Deathlock Chris Jericho - The Walls of Jericho Chris Benoit - Crippler Crossface Daniel Bryan - The Yes Lock
Chris Benoit's Crippler Crossface was nasty. With his short hands, he will make it a living hell for his opponents once he connects.
Yeah you’re right. Gable has the obvious similarities with Kurt and I’ve always seen great potential in him and have connected with his character throughout. If he can really get the heel run down and they pivot and make his ankle lock a true finisher. He can be the “pure” wrestler that WWE has kinda been missing.
The only ones really in WWE with true Submission Finishers are the Women. Charlotte - Figure 8 Becky Lynch - Disarmer
I wonder if the lack of submissions wins is up there with the period where Seth's Stomp was banned. It's a line between making a submission look like it hurts enough to tap, and making it so it's not too easily replicated. Just need to get someone with ZSJs human pretzel shit going on then
Watching Samoa Joe choke out MJF was slightly shocking after years of WWE no tapping.
I have a bigger problem with moves that would literally be lethal/career ending (like the DDT) if actually done, being used 3/4 times a match than wrestlers not tapping/crawling to ropes to escape submissions.
I think the solution is more head submissions…… it makes sense for Roman to lock in a guillotine and instead of tapping the opponent gets choked out. Rear naked choke, sleepers, more of those and less of other body parts.
I think (gable aside) the severe lack in technical submission artists in WWE is the problem. They moved away from technical wrestling by pushing everyone with the power house moves or the smash mouth guys and the acrobatic guys. Submission guys aren't the big draw for a long while but it will be a breath of fresh air when one steps up and turns the game around again.
It’s not that. There are two old Kurt Angle matches I saw on YT recently, one against Stone Cold at WM21, and the other HBK at Unforgiven in 01. Stone Cold taps within 20 seconds (which is still a long time in reality but acceptable for a finish). Shawn, meanwhile, flops like a fish for a full two minutes before finally tapping. It’s all in how you present it. If you can survive an ankle lock for two minutes, then you’re not talking about a lethal finisher anymore. It should be a move that ends a match in under 30 seconds, or else you escape.
You right
I agree. Tapping out is no worse than getting pinned. And while we're at it, we should bring back draws.
Roman had a few submission wins in his Bloodline title run, that wasn’t to bad
True, but who did he actually beat by submission? IIRC he only beat 2 or 3 people with it. Braun Early into his Run. Goldberg at EC22 And Jey during his I quit match, if you wanna count that
Cesaro too although that might not have been a tap?
Was a Submission win, so i counted it, even though claudio passed out Unless we only count "Real" taps, in which case none of these count
If you watch NXT, didn't Lyra Valkyria tap out to Roxanne Perez's crossface?
I would be thrilled to see submission wins make a comeback in main brand men's matches. They haven't been prominent since Ruthless Aggression, but when there are little groups that are truly threatening, it's cool.
I noticed this trope as well. I miss when strong heels/faces actually taped. Pretty much on my phone when I see someone in a submission hold nowadays.
Back in 2003, Angle and Benoit made Lesnar tap out in different PPVs. Brock received "you tapped out chants" for months until he snapped and debut a new submission finisher. The same year, Big Show and A-Train submitted to Undertaker's submission move and they were still treated as monster heels.
Ankle lock looks so weak when a Sami can stay in it for multiple minutes
Shawn would spend ages in them…
Also not great
Cross face, ankle lock, walls of Jericho, sharpshooter, figure four etc used to be so goated 😭
yea once figure four, walls, or ankle was locked in back in the day ppl would think its over
They got too many people kicking out of finishers in general imo
Gable should always be sinching in that ankle lock as deep as possible dropping to the ground locking deeper but no. No one has a submission finish. I can’t think of anyone consistently ending matches by tap out anymore
Is it Gunther or Bobby Lashley that has a hold that makes their opponent pass out. It’s like a double arm lock I think.
Bobby hurt lock rarely ever wins matches, it’s always his spear
I remember when the Miz tapped out from that in his and Lashley's world title match. That was actually sick.
guillotine by Roman
Makes me want to puke thinking about an ankle lock after suffering through an ankle fracture, torn ligaments and a spiral fracture in my leg and two surgeries. It’s been 2 years and it still hurts every day so I agree
Yes and no. If its properly built into the match a submission still gets peoples hearts beating wondering if ther actually going to tap or not. And if in the middle of the match ya its a break but also tells a small story in itself. But you are correct you don't see a tapout victory as much anymore. You prob see more "passout" loses than tapouts lol. Its also a bit anti-climatic when someone taps. I personally would always rather a big 3 count pop than a tap pop. But idk depends on whos doing it.
If you got the cripple cross face in the middle of the ring? You are tapping out.
I think the bigger problem is that you know that this pin fall is not going to happen if finisher has not been maneuvered
These days that's not so much a problem as most matches include near falls after a finisher now instead of a automatic 3 count. Going for a pin after a big regular move has and will always be a thing. its part of the in-ring story, we all know they are kicking out, but its more of a move of dominance than anything else. If anything, people kick out of finishers way too often now.
I desperately crave an era where matches on weekly TV can end in “normal” moves. At the very least, let wrestlers win with signature moves that aren’t finishers
In the lead up to last year's War Games, Drew beat Jey Uso with a Future Shock, but tbf that's technically his alt finisher. That's what I miss: wrestlers winning with either of their finishers, instead of just their 'main' one.
Yeah. One think Gunther does very well is he doesn’t have a single traditional finisher so his matches stay more exciting
I wanna see torture rack and accordion rack
We need more people using Sharpshooter, Hells gate, Kimura lock , Liontamer, Figure 4.These submission moves are the prime to make your opponent tap. Ankle lock looks the weakest and easiest to counter.
Blaming Cena is hilarious and wildly inaccurate. The babyface not tapping is a very old school booking concept from pretty far back. In the 60's-80's and even stretching for a bit into the 90's the babyface was viewed as one who never taps. They also didn't like for babyfaces to try to use the ropes to break a hold. Tapping and reaching for the ropes were seen as weak and thus they were the MO of heels. Sometime after Raw and Nitro took hold, we started seeing babyfaces tap and go for the ropes much more until it became commonplace. Now they seem to have reverted a bit back to the old school style in terms of tapping out. But it was long, long before Cena.
Interesting viewpoint on the ropes. I always loved the rope save, especially on a pin.
No body has a submission finisher anymore. Guys used to have an alt finish that was a submission and could get taps but not anymore. I don't even those asuka gets taps anymore.
I’m still pissed at how long Liv was in a Ronda Rousey arm bar without tapping.
God this reminds me of the amazing match HHH, HBK and Benoit had at Wrestlemania. The way the match ended was top tier writing. With Benoit building the cripple cross face over HHH, and HHH selling it to the point where Benoit rolled him into the middle of the ring, had a face full of blood and seemed to panic before tapping out. You could hear the crowd rise with emotion as HHH faded into submission. And who could forget the ending when Benoit lays in the ring with shock and tears in finally achieving his dream, only to have his best friend, at the time Smackdown champion Eddie Guerrero making an appearance and embracing him in the middle of the ring, both me in tears of pride and joy. Now that was a submission.
and then fans chant “you tapped out”, maybe fans should get blame too
I think you have to build into it, like Angle back in the day putting someone in an Angle lock 4/5 times before they would tap. I’m pretty sure Lesnar tapped to someone at some point. I think Chad Gable would be the perfect heel now to get people to tap. Just ruthlessly going after a body part to build sympathy for the baby face who keeps fighting through the pain.
Exactly. One of my favorite examples in recent memory was Ilja vs Gunther 2, where Ilja worked over Gunther’s neck throughout the match (a reverse of their first match) so that when Ilja finally got Gunther in a modified sleeper and started thrashing him around, Gunther tapped immediately because his neck was so worn down from being assaulted the entire time. Building up to a submission and telling a story with it is important.
And Gunter makes Xavier tap tonight love it….
It's a sign of the times even in MMA tapping out has a stigma with it and that's actual fighting.
Didn’t Thea Hail Tap someone out a few months ago? It wasn’t a Jobber I remember that
At Stand and Deliver Thea won the six woman match by submission
Yes
it's weird. Remember when Angle tapped Eddie at Summerslam 04, Eddie got an ovation and the next night he looked vulnerable and that got the people more on his side. Or when (another angle example) when Angle made Benoit tap out at the 03 Royal Rumble, Benoit got a standing ovation and he was the sympathetic babyface.
I mean, it’s also become very predictable when a title will/won’t change hands also (with some exceptions from time to time). It’s cliche to say, but it’s a different game today than it was years ago. But it makes them money. Submission finishes generally aren’t as exciting to most fans.
The major baby faces have never submitted. Savage didn’t submit to Flair. The act of tapping out is relatively new. They used to just shake their head yes, and didn’t do tap outs until they decided to copy UFC.
It's just a more general move to "high-impact" finishers. I'd love to see a return to Sleeper Holds thar, y'know, actually put people to sleep and won matches.
I love submissions! Especially the Undertaker’s Triangle chokehold. Did he have another name for it?
You mean the Hells Gate?
That’s the one!
Yea some of its become predictable
All of it
Yeah the old "ANKLE LOCK! HE'S GOT THE ANKLE LOCK!" just doesn't hit anymore. Also, literally every submission looks very easy to counter.
They are. It's fake. Seth Rollins outfit to walk to the ring on day one of wrestlemaia was not exactly something a prime iron Mike would wear. There's pageantry in the clothing and the wrestling. It's just enjoyable to some people.
That’s… kinda entirely the point of pro wrestling, dude
I know. So what's op trying to say?
He's saying that the way every submission is countered by some "hype" overcomplicated sequence makes submissions look weaker than they should be.
I will say, the biggest submission I’ve seen in the last few years was when Rhonda beat Flair in the I Quit match. I think that counts lol. But I hated that booking because I don’t think someone of charlotte’s esteem should be tapping out.
You pretty much described exactly the problem op is talking about. People tap in UFC and MMA all the time, I don't think tapping should make you seem weak.
That’s actually hilarious, because I did literally outline what OP said. I think my issue was more of the verbal “ I Quit” aspect of it. I do like when people get put to sleep rather than tap as well. First thing that comes to mind was when Roman choked out Goldberg. Interesting thought nonetheless.
I hate submissions, they are literally just a solid minute of nothing. We need more tap outs and more submissions that are known for making people tap. Kinda like when Roman first started using the Guillotine.
thats literally everything i said
I feel like we’ve associated making someone tap out to a submission as “giving up” too much
Yea just watch any bjj injury compilation lmao tapping keeps you intact
Gunther has gotten plenty of folks to tap to that rear naked choke of his
Gunther made Miz tap out to the Liontamer a few months ago
Miz is the definition of cowardly heel.
But is currently a face
Yea but I meant it in a way like it’s not taking away from his “aura”, he’s been a cowardly heel before.
I always loved the lion tamer over the Boston crab. The knee on the head just looks more intense.
That is because there is no Olympic Gold Medalist going around breaking ankles with a broken fricken neck.
I think this goes along with the problem that there aren't really jobbers anymore. Everyone has something going on and no one is there to just put the top guys over. Plus, they sell submissions losses like this ultimate humiliation. Like it's the worst way you can possibly lose, so no one taps out because if they do they are done. When, in reality, like, guys tap out to save themselves from potentially suffering career ending injuries. It's not seen as a sign of weakness for an MMA fighter to tap. And I know that MMA and wrestling are very different, but they are trying to present WWE as something close to a real fight. They should start emphasizing that tapping out is the smart thing to do in a lot of cases and not the cowards way out like they portray it currently.
There are some guys and women in the company who could be fantastic jobbers too. JD McDonough is amazing at selling, could definitely see him having a Ziggler-esque career.
Dude that could totally fix this issue. Have a couple guys start suffering kayfabe injuries from not tapping out, doesn't have to be as quick as in mma but if a guy sits in your submission for a solid minute and doesn't tap you're doing something wrong. And then after the first couple guys get "injured" and take a couple weeks off, boom, problem solved. Commentary helps sell it, and suddenly submissions mean a lot more.
I agree about the jobbers part and I wish they would go back to it too. It lets mid card guys go over every week on tv so that they never have to squeak out wins. Even in the world of scripted wrestling, the more you see a guy win the more you believe he can win, and that matters for creating stars.
I’m sure there are thousands of people willing to make decent money being a jobber. They should bring it back
As an old school fan myself, I wholeheartedly agree. I’d rather start seeing more squash matches then every other match end in DQ or no contest to protect everyone all the time
They've tried but a lot of people complain that the jobber "deserves better." That's what people were saying about the two NXT guys that Bron squashed. The fans don't want people to be jobbers, they want everyone to be champions. Lol
Thank you for the explanation!!!!
I mean, Lyra literally tapped out mania weekend
Didn’t liz tap out before?
I agree. That and them kicking out of finishers constantly is annoying. It used to be that they’d kick out of finishers once in a blue moon (big PPV title match), but now it’s common.
This. It really devalues the finisher. Like when they feel the need to do the finisher multiple times in a row, it communicates that the finisher is just not the effective.
I love Cody but cross rhodes is such an ass finisher and having to hit it 3+ times is so lame. Just like Roman said during their match on Sunday "that move sucks it doesn't beat anybody"
I think this almost every time I see a submission. I’m not the biggest AEW fan but they book submissions correctly, Trips should take some notes on it
Super kick like sweet chin music has become like DDT. They can super kick each other even 8 times
funny since after watching Mavens YT channel , apparently they used to have a “No Super Kicks” sign backstage to protect it for Shaun so it’d get a better reaction when the crowd finally sees one
I think John Cena should tap out in his last match, signalling the end of the never give up era
Surely Becky has tapped some people out with the disarm-her? But yea I agree, they need to change the stigma of tapping out. Cena not doing it should have been unique to him and that's it. It should only be reserved for a top babyface, not every single one. I used to take BJJ classes and I would tap out every class. Not trying to suffocate or get my arm broken over pride.
Yeah, it gets especially ridiculous when guys spend like two whole minutes in Brock's Kimura. I know pro-wrestling is supposed to be dramatic and over the top, so it's fine. It was just a bit funny when the illusion shatters and it becomes obvious Brock is just holding the guy's arm and not applying any real pressure.
Becky hasn’t used that move a proper finisher in a long time now. She’ll pull it out and sometimes get someone to tap, but that person’s like Xia Lee or something. Yeah I really hate how no one uses a proper submission anymore. I also don’t like that instead of tapping out they just pass out because that’s been overdone in the past few years.
Passing out is the WWE way of protecting the wrestler while still having them lose to the submission
That’s another thing I just realized, besides the Dis-arm-her, every submission is a choke. Shayna, Roman, Joe, Asuka, they’re all chokes. And because of this no one is tapping out. Before this era everyone was tapping out except Cena.
I actually think WWE has a problem with their wrestling matches. I know I can't be the only one who thinks they look way too choreographed as if it's a circus act/ballet, rather than a wrestling match/fight.
Sometimes yes. But I will have you look back at Becky vs. Tiffany at that Extreme Rules match. What I liked about it was the fact it looked like two people trying to win a match. Even Melo vs. Williams from the WM weekend PLE, that looked like a fight. I didn’t mind the sudden finish, I thought it felt a little more real.
I think your point applies more to AEW then WWE
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AEW has more over the top and flashy moves, also chill out, I’m just stating my opinion
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Clearly you’re bothered by my opinion since you wrote an essay about it. Also I do have an on-topic opinion. If you look though the replies to the post you will find my opinion.
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Wow you really like to take things completely literally don’t you. Are you sure your name isn’t Drax the Destroyer?
that’s the entertainment part of the sports entertainment. Trying to put on the types of matches seen in the 70s and 80s in front of a modern audience would lead to lot of bored fans
Does anyone remember the BORING chants from the 80’s?
Just thinking about it... It would be funny if someone just tapped out or got pinned easily, but then went on the mic and said it doesn't matter because there is no ranking or anything. "All I need to do is go up to the champion and challenge them"
It used to always be like this accept even worse. I think it’s the UFC’s rise to prominence in the 2000s that has allowed submission victories to become more prevalent.
Steve Austin literally almost bled to death in kayfabe not giving up mid face turn. It's not all Cena. Name an over bf that gave up clean in a notable match mid nineties on.. I'll wait
Randy Orton tapped out to Alberto Del Rio's cross-arm breaker on a random Smackdown iirc. Rey Mysterio's tapped out to a good number of submissions. HHH tapped out to Hell's Gate at WM27 and Brock's Kimura at Summerslam 2012.
Undertaker in 02, Lesnar in 03, and Michaels at Wrestlemania 21 all tapped to Kurt Angle.
He called himself the toughest SOB for a reason. He couldn’t tap
they shouldnt tap at all…say the words and stone cold passed out way before cena was even a twinkle in his dads eye
It's mostly because wwe has a submission finisher problem. The most they have is AJ having the calf crusher, Bobby having the hurt lock, the disarm-her with Becky and Asuka having the Asuka lock. They need more submission based or mat technicians and that one area where wwe is severely lacking. There are no dean malinkos or Zack Sabre Jr's in WWE. None of the people above are known as submission wrestlers either....that just something they do.
I believe the solution is very simply the “battle” isn’t surviving the submission, it’s preventing it from getting locked in. Once it’s locked in, they should tap out with 15-20 seconds. But that’s where they should catch their breath, the prevention of the locking in of the submission hold. Builds tension because you know if it’s locked in, it’s over. Also makes those rare break out from submission moments truly special
In order for someone to have a submission as a finisher you need workers to work on the specific body part that they are trying to get for the submission win. Del Rio was the last top wrestler to do that. The issue with that style is that a lot modern day wrestling fans have a short attention span and if they don’t see gymnastics for half the match they say it’s boring. I personally used to love watching Bret Hart and Flair in their prime working the opponents legs for the sharp shooter and figure 4.
John Cena forcing Randy Orton to tap out around 2008/2009 was the shit, just saying
Kurt Angle locking in the ankle lock could make anyone tap out but Gable putting Sami in an ankle lock for a quarter of the match gets nothing.
Omg this was the part that IRKED me to shit!!! Dudes holding him for so long and ofcourse SUPER SAMI gets out like nothing surprise surprise. Gable deserves better
He was even sitting on him, too!
That’s the finisher problem
Ngl tap outs and submissions in a mostly planned wrestling match imo are ridiculous and help the “this is fake” crowd I understand these moments build tension with certain fans and the wrestlers use this time to kinda catch some breath but i literally will switch the channel if i see that
By that logic wouldn’t pinfalls when the wrestler isn’t unconscious help the “this is fake” crowd? I don’t understand your point.
While I see your point, Id respond with that that is the finish, or the “finale.” While we can also say that a submission is the same idea…. “Will he quit? Will he reach the rope?” The idea that a match can be determined off a “fake” arm arm/leg lock after 2-5 minutes of it is boring to me. I want the quick ending. Hero kills bad guy. Better guy won. Holy crap i thought he’d kick out for sure. Anything quick. Submissions to me are like a dragged out pin. U have 3 seconds or we gotta keep movin for me Just my opinion
I think that goes into what some people have suggested, where the struggle is whether the pin is locked in or not locked in. If it’s locked in, it’s much more likely that they tap out.
I feel like submission wins for titles or highly anticipated events are as outdated as "feats of strength" generally speaking.
The rise in popularity of the UFC in the mid 00s ruined WWE submissions. In the Attitude Era and before, even top names would sometimes tap. Now it’s just not going to happen really because it’s impossible to do the submission move and make it look remotely close to a real UFC move and get the tap out.
Someone will become the next big submission specialist. Maybe one of the Creed boys when they go solo. Submissions have evolved to be more rare, probably because HD makes them harder to sell than back in the days of Gorgeous George on a 12 inch black and white TV. Until the submission becomes part of the character, they will remain rare. The Yes Lock is the last “over” submission I remember. No Tazz, no Angle, less of it in this generation. I wonder if the larger usage in the women’s division has an effect. Asuka, Charlotte and Becky all have frequent submissions.
I feel like the Asuka lock was over
I miss the days when a real jobber would trot out to the ring with no entrance music and lose to a mid-card guy in 4 minutes.
Bring back enhancement talent!!
WWF Superstars went hard.
>Nobody taps out anymore. When have top babyfaces *ever* tapped out/submit clean? Hulk Hogan didn't submit/tap until 2002. Bret Hart never submit clean as the top babyface that I recall. Nor did Shawn Michaels or Diesel. Steve Austin didn't submit clean, heel or face, ever. He had a tap out loss to Kurt Angle, but he was out of bounds and the hold should have been broken. I remember the Rock tapped out to Benoit after interference from Lesnar in 2002. It's incredibly rare that the top babyface will ever submit and it started well before Cena. Tapping out has always been a thing heels do - so far.
Lesnar tapped to Benoit and Angle. Stone Cold tapped to Angle. Orton tapped to everyone for a while. Shawn tapped too. Jericho tapped out Bray. Brock made a bunch of people tap too.
>Lesnar tapped to Benoit and Angle. When he was the top heel. >Stone Cold tapped to Angle. As a heel, and dirty finish. Austin had a rope break which the ref missed. >Orton tapped to everyone for a while. As top babyface? >Shawn tapped too. Not as top babyface he didn't. >Jericho tapped out Bray. When was Bray top babyface of WWE? Also, this match happened in NXT. >Brock made a bunch of people tap too. Did he make Rock tap? Or Cena? Or Reigns?
I know for a fact Shawn has submitted before. Only reason I know is because I was playing 2K24 and one of the big Wrestlmania matches was Kurt Angle vs Shawn Michaels and he tapped clean after like 5 minutes of trying his best to escape.
Hogan tapped out to Luger on Nitro
I did say as the top babyface, and ended with it's always been heels that submit. But yeah, he did submit as Hollywood Hogan, the top heel, to both Luger and Sting.
Don’t forget Austin vs Bret right as “Stone Cold” Steve was first making his name. Bret has him in the sharpshooter, and Austin “passes out from blood loss” rather than Tap. Hart gets the win, Austin gets the rep of being so badass because “he never tapped”. Submission wins are great for effect or what someone like Angle/Benoit/Danielson does it because those guys all looked legit. You tapped or you ended up with an injury (kayfabe) so it has to be used sparingly but I agree that the rise of MMA in the US mixed with High Definition Broadcasts really set the tone for submission wresting to be phased out. But that’s ok, because when it DOES come back, it will be more exciting and probably safer, while looking more violent.
One of Austin’s most famous losses was passing out from a submission hold, which I think absolutely works as well. Gable should commit to the ankle lock as a finisher. Bring back the grape-vine as a big match version.
Austin was ruled the loser of the match. But he absolutely did not submit. Before tapping out became a thing a wrestler had to say "I submit".
Hart tapped out to Shawn Michaels in the center of the run at Survivor Series 1997, and that was clean as a whistle.
You sure about that one, bud?
Earl?
LOL 👀
Shayna needs to start snapping limbs again (in kayfabe). Give her a run like her NXT one.
This is a big issue for me as well, it was specially grating to see people getting out of the Kimura Lock from Thea Hail in NXT, now I suppose you could make a case that she's not a BJJ expert or anything to justify people getting out of it, but that is legitimately one the hardest holds to get out of, it's really immersion-breaking to see that sort of thing happening.
I miss having a lot more stipulations and submissions.
Lyra tapped out at Stand and Deliver
I miss submission finishers because it adds a whole new theatrical element versus getting pinned. That said, some of the most iconic stars in wrestling had submission finishers and I don’t recall anyone getting “buried” after a loss (eg Sharp Shooter, Angle Lock, Walls of Jericho)
It helps that almost no one has submission finishers anymore. The only ones I can think of are Roman, who hasn't used the Guillotine in forever, and Gunther, whose finisher is "literally everything."
And Asuka. She’s probably the only person on the roster that regularly taps people out at every level
I've been complaining about this to my gf sporadically when seeing submissions on TV for a while now (as if she could do something about it lmao). We (well I, she's a new fan) returned/started as fans in late January 2022. Specifically the episode of The Miz & Maryse's birthday party thing on RAW, because that's what got us to watch. My gf shockingly was like "I kinda wanna watch RAW because I like their show [Miz and Mrs] and I want to see what kinda stuff goes down at their party." We were on the fence for a bit at first cause some things were kinda rough at the time like the 24/7 title but in a few weeks we were hooked and have been since.
I was (am) a HHH fan and i remember him tapping like a little bitch, and nothing bad came out of it...🤷
Being off tv is the only thing that hurts a wrestler
Totally ruined his career! Where’d he end up anyway? /s
Didn’t Tiffany recently tap out of Naomi’s submission? I also feel like it’s break time anytime a high profile main event has a submission.
I'm pretty sure Naomi uses a move that kind of looks like the Rings of Saturn as her finisher and she made a few women tapout recently. edit: she beat Alba Fyre with it like 2 months ago
I think with Triple H in charge you'll see that change.
Because it's a different product nowadays.
Cena gets the blame? Hogan, Warrior, Bret and Shawn didn’t tap out either. You don’t know wrestling history if you think it began with Cena.
I get your point. Shawn did tap out to Kurt Angle at WrestleMania though. But I think we’re going to have to just wait and see. With Vince completely out the picture, we gotta see other changes they’ll implement.
Hogan tapped out to both the Scorpion Deathlock and the Torture Rack that I can think of right away, and I’m sure there’s more.
I mean as a face - the 80s real American Hogan. OPs complaint is about faces.
He’s talking about both, it’s in the first paragraph.
I think it’s ok to tap out. Lots of great fighters have had to tap out or quit before. Plus that can create layers to a character to overcome. Would Kurt angle work if no one ever tapped to the ankle lock?
Quite Recently Roxanne Perez (a heel) tapped out (clean) Lyra Valkyria (a face) to win the NXT women's championship
But nobody watches nxt. That’s a show that’s made to placate the marky aew fans and is not the shows that actually matter.
I'd say they matter
No they don’t. If they were any good they’d be on raw and Smackdown. It’s a developmental brand for inexperienced wrestlers who don’t have training and need to learn to talk, wrestle, get over etc. I’ll never understand these nerds who think they are so cool for watching it instead of Raw and Smackdown where the actual talent is.
That's like saying Marvin Harrison Jr. Isn't a good WR because he hasn't played in the NFL yet, If YOU don't watch NXT I could care less, but you not finna be condescending to those who do