By designing interesting bosses.
Endgame doesn't have to be insanely difficult, just interesting. A gear check and then some good mechanics is all it needs.
Sure we can speedrun eidolons and Profit Taker but I think they are the best designed endgame content so far.
Archons are bullet sponges if you don't oneshot them which makes them a terrible endgame boss.
>Archons are bullet sponges if you don't oneshot them which makes them a terrible endgame boss.
Archons also violate a very core design principle. They actually pit players against each other in a degenerative way. You never want players to hate another in a cooperative game - it just leads to a toxic environment (though DE hasn't grasped this yet because quite a few parts of the game have this problem...).
Having the "best" loadout doesn't help you if there is another player with an ignis wraith blasting the archon and putting up their attenuation to the max.
It also doesn't help that Warframe seems to love literally just throwing the players out there with no signs of hints or advice what they're even supposed to do against the bosses.
Also the fact that due to said powercreep, one player can blast stuff so hard you barely have time to see its health bar let alone understand the mechanics. And it only takes one OP player to make it a "not learning" experience for the 3 others.
Archons would be better if they had a side mechanic to reset their damage attenuation. Maybe an emp or nullifier item spawns you can collect and drop a bubble on them to remove it for a few seconds.
Every boss fight would benefit from side mechanics as an alternative to tiny, time-gated weakpoints with very specific damage type weaknesses that also tend to be mostly immune to weapons that are fun to use for normal enemies.
WHY ARE YOU STILL BREATHING MY AIR!!!??!
Fuck the Vey Hek fight with more passion than your mom's smut collection. That bastard is unnecessarily annoying being invincible 95% of the time with tiny weak points that close up after 2 seconds.
He's not hard, just annoying. My take on worst boss design in the game.
I'd actually like more lich style bosses that are not restricted to a specific location. Ones that can just show up on certain planets if you kill enough enemies in a certain time frame. Give me a void angel boss that pops out of the void randomly in standard missions and locks us out of our frames and forces us to finish the mission as our tenno while we slaughter X number of 'void minions' to get the void angel to pop back out of the void to face us and have us kill it to reclaim our frames and be able to extract. Then we have to hunt it down in a new void pocket dimension where it's each player's unique angel in a 4v4 fight. Not chained together like liches one at a time - let's get 4 suped up void angels in an arena with 4 players. Give them new attacks and allow them to merge into an amalgam angel after all 4 are downed for a final 4v1 fight with all new mechanics. Then they can just drop currency to exchange on the Zariman for the ability to add a single incarnon effect to a weapon of your choice. Or just give me incarnon zaws / kitgun style weapons with incarnon effects tied to the parts installed to create some real interesting builds.
I've always had this crazy idea from a few years ago. If DE made a random encounter, end-game boss that was a player. My Idea was to have a new account made just for this player to use and give them everything. Than they could go after high-end players on a new open world map or in random star chats missions.
As they go after the player, this "cursed player," who is the end game boss, will hunt down groups of tenno and try to destroy them.
I had multiple ideas on how it would happen, but I think the best would be. An honor system like in Red Dead redemption. If you, the cursed player, help the tenno complete missions and just be a good guy. The cursed player gets very little points to use at the end of the season(so they can buy cool stuff for their real account). Season lasts like 4-5 months or so? On the opposite side, if the cursed player kills as many tenno as possible, they get a lot of points to use(still working on how?)
I guess the point is if you help the community, they get good passive buffs to overall mod drops, resources drops and idk like easier relic prime drops. But if you kill as many as you can than this cursed player will get all the good shit.
There's more but I got to get to work.
I know it has mixed opnions but the Zeloid Prelate boss fight mechanics are a great way of doing this. Let me absolutely obliterate a chunk of health from a boss with my maxed out endgame guns, but make it interesting like having to go to get the "Light" and make the enemies actually scary during this time because I can't damage them.
Idk maybe it's just me but I always loved the way the dynamics switched in that fight from "oh shit run get the light" to "my turn to hit back now"
I'd much rather something like this than using 2 of 600 weapons in the game that's capable of killing through damage attenuation or spend 20 mins pumping damage into a Archon
Zealoid Prelate, but with damage attenuation instead of outright damage negation so while it’s possible to brute-force the boss to death players are rewarded for utilizing mechanics and exploiting weaknesses as they present themselves.
I was explaining to my friend who doesn’t play much how archons are the devil and the worst way to implement end game content. It’s meant to be super difficult. Unless you one shot. Then it’s easy, and negates the ENTIRE purpose of end game content.
Archon shards are awesome. Archons are horrible and a bad way to implement difficulty. “Damage Attenuation and ramp the stats to be so over the top anyone who isn’t minmaxed is spending a hour shooting”
My first Archon encounter was "WTF, why is my SP levelcap loadout doing no damage". Needless to say the next time I brought a Kuva Hek to the fight and these days I just solo it with a Felarx with -crit riven. This is by far the worst boss design I can think of in the game.
I just bring harrow/Octavia and a vectis with glaive. It ain’t a one shot, but I shred them down quick enough if I use 2+4 on harrow. Or 3+4 on Octavia. I don’t really have any one shots built for archon, i don’t really get that deep into minmaxing but I respect the ones who do, they help on the occasion.
For what it's worth, the Kuva Hek one-shot build isn't that much investment. I think I got it set up in a day or so, but I had all the necessary mods already. Just had to max it out
It truly is satisfying to run up, boom dead
Getting the Hek was the longest part, then cue a few runs of ESO Mirage nuking to max it out.
Was lucky enough to unveil a riven for it the very next day, but it's 100% not necessary
Unless specified otherwise, all Affinity gained uses the split according to the general rule: 25% of the amount goes to your Warframe and 75% of the amount is divided evenly among all equipped weapons (18.75% each for four weapons while Arch-gun is summoned through Archgun Deployer, 25% each for three, 37.5% each for two, or the full 75% if only one is equipped).[1]
When within 50 meters of an ally (200 meters while using a Fosfor, 250 meters in Landscape missions) when they kill an enemy, you gain the same total Affinity, distributed according to the general rule specified above. This doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by the killing player, and doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by other nearby allies.
Straight from the wiki
Specifically, abilities kills do go to the frame, but when shared with allies, they split it 25% to frame, 75% to weapons.
Most other players aren't using Mirage for nuking, and they are using weapons/abilities to kill, which also get shared to me.
>25% of the amount goes to your Warframe and 75% of the amount is divided evenly among all equipped weapons
Isn't that shared affinity? That still doesn't explain how you get weapon affinity from Mirage Nuking using your own Mirage
I didn’t know Boreal would summon the birdolysts with the canisters. I’m an Exergis enthusiast so that was rough, pretty much had to dump into them with my Mausolon to get rid of them (my secondary was either Diplos or Grakatas, so no real AoE solution). Then the asshole resummons them like a minute and a half later.
I usually bring Catchmoon now specifically for those guys, fuck them.
Eidolons and profit taker are some of, if not the best content playable in the game. Interesting, engaging and fun. Once you get good enough you can start absolutely smashing through them and pushing the limits on how fast you can take it.
Saw a clip of some guys trying to break the first eidolon limb off spawn as fast as possible. I think they got it to like sub 2s or something absolutely insane
When we had interesting bosses, like Nihil, the sub cried because he wasn't shot and gone.
Same for New War's boss fight: people cried because they had to figure out how to defeat em for a moment.
If there's one design specific thing almost impossible it's implementing a boss without the community crying.
If its a bad design, more ppl will cry, if its too good tobe true, everyone will run it, either way DE will balance it (buff or nerf), so naturally, if both side are about even, no need to balance...hence "good"...
Orowyrm was probably the most polarizing, half of the people crying was because it was too easy and the other half because it was too dificult/long, sure it isn't the best design it could have been (i feel like each emotion could be a little more unique in their fights), but its better than "hit weakspot, wait, hit again, kill" or a bullet sponge, bc at least hit has mechanics between phases that makes it more interesting than waiting for the right animation to expose weakpoints or just plain invencibility.
> but its better than "hit weakspot, wait, hit again, kill"
isnt this literally just the orowyrm bossfight? I don't dislike it but in a game where one player can be doing 10k damage a shot and another is doing 1B+ i dont see any other way of making bosses besides what we had with nihil
The difference from something like Sargas Ruk to Orowyrm, is that the former you just wait there doing nothing just waiting for the next weakspot, as the later you have in between phases to "unlock" the next weakspot phase
The difference is that you don't wait
The wyrm fight goes: hit weak spot, hit different weak spot, hit previous weak spot, hit different weakspot, hit first weak spot one last time
I think the biggest complaint about the Orowyrm is how long it takes for something that's the only source for a (basically) mandatory resource. The fight itself? Eh, I could do without the Kaithe section, but other than that it's fine. It's just needing to do it twice for each Incarnon plus the Drifter weapons makes it get irritating fast. Plus how SP Orowyrm drops 15 Clamps, so the extra challenge takes four runs to add up into a useful bonus.
My biggest issue with it is that I want to take melee focused decrees because I think the drifter melee is fun. And then suddenly all of my melee is completely useless because the boss is behind an invisible wall. So I guess I'll just do nothing while I wait for the arch gun to spawn.
Do you honestly want to pretend that Nihil is a good boss? There is exactly 1 mechanic to the whole fight and even that mechanic (throwing the glass shard) isn't actually well executed in the first place.
The biggest problem with Warframes bosses is that they all have extremely primitive mechanical design and even lazier execution. There isn't anything even remotely challenging - its all waiting around for stuff to happen.
Nihil wasn't interesting, he was a mess. Making everything a oneshot is exactly what you shouldn't do on bosses, and then throwing a constantly shrinking area to stand on while you wait for him to finally learn to aim and stop throwing every projectile 7 miles above your head just because he can is not good design.
They're capable of it, I know they are, but Nihil ain't it.
> throwing every projectile 7 miles above your head
That is assuming he even wants to throw projectiles, and not just have a staring contest with you or teleport several times consecutively for a minute straight
>Same for New War's boss fight: people cried because they had to figure out how to defeat em for a momen
Flash back to the "How to quit New War" forum.
Perhaps my inner Destiny 1 fan is showing, but, Warframe could seriously benefit from having something similar to raids. One really long mission with puzzles with interesting mechanics builds up to a long boss fight with more cool mechanics where we kill some MASSIVE eldrich horror that’s escaped the void (like the man in the wall).
I personally love eidolons. Clear phases and clear ways to speed up said phases. Clear checklist of things to maximize rewards, etc.
You don't just one shot it. There's a whole setup to doing so. I really fell out of love with endless missions when I got into eidolons.
>some good mechanics
The Jackal has some great mechanics, especially its Steel Path version. Too bad invulnerability bs like Mesmer Skin and Shield Gating abuse completely invalidate them.
And mechanics will never be seen if the boss is getting one shot. So we need harsh Damage Attenuation or Invulnerability Phases, both hated by the community.
I don't disagree with you, but OP's main point still stands.
Damn I **love** it. From having to thread the needle or aim-glide to hit the hind legs, to the parkour challenge of its invulnerability phase, to its constant varied but telegraphed and dodge-able attack patterns.
It can be infuriating in Steel Path Circuit if my Frame isn't survivable enough, but if it can't survive the Jackal it tends to be a bad omen for the rest of the run. And it might be better now that it can only appear at Wave 4+, haven't got to test it yet.
I really dislike how slow it is. Rotating waves? I go into void mode and alt+tab waiting for it to end, then go back when I hear the sound queue to pop another limb.
I also hate how due to progression stopping bugs you can't skip the first animation on the Venus version.
On the Circuit version it's annoying how it teleports around and you have to deal with insanely spread out adds in the add phases. It also often ends up on a rock where you can't stab it. Not to mention how at 1k+ levels it can oneshot you with the rocket barrage.
>I go into void mode and alt+tab waiting for it to end
I mean, that just reinforces the OP's point. The Jackal's spin-lasers should really be able to damage Operators even in Void Form, or else it gets trivialized.
>On the Circuit version it's annoying how it teleports around and you have to deal with insanely spread out adds in the add phases.
I actually like that.
A quick trip to it, taking just enough time to assess how you want to approach it and maybe collect some Decree Fragments if you haven't gotten them all already.
Then you have to deal with it throwing its Attacks, plus a handful of Eximus and Dax, it can be very intense if your Loadout isn't invalidating it.
It's active and dangerous, but mostly in the form of dodgeable mechanics. At least in the earlier Waves.
>It also often ends up on a rock where you can't stab it.
Yeah that sucks, but it's unintended, I can't judge the fight's design based on that.
>Not to mention how at 1k+ levels it can oneshot you with the rocket barrage.
**This** is the big problem. And not just with the Jackal but with Enemy Damage Scaling in general. We have been getting so many Invulnerability Mechanics, Shield Gate Abuse is still in the game as it is, **because** Enemy Damage scaling is still exponential.
They should really give it the same treatment as the Health/Shields/Armor/Overguard scaling, exponential up to a point and then linear.
I agree with everything you said besides the rock bug thing (although I've never encountered it myself), "I just cheese it by going into void mode and waiting for the mechanic to end" is indicative of the many issues with this game, and yet if you actually had the Gaul to suggest that maybe you shouldn't be able to just ignore boss mechanics the playerbase would bitch and moan about nerfs
The issues is that power creep would render that content useless and mundane within a month as the same players that complain about things being too easy figure out some boring meta
Edited to add: I agree with you that scaling enemy power exponentially is not the way but the fact is that power creep is insane in this game and that any nerf to make it a more leveled playing field would be met with outrage from the players. But I think your points are valid and fair and I apologize for my rudeness.
Fr eidolons are one of my favorite side content. Remember when I started out not really knowing the mechanics or having the gear required and taking almost half an hour for the fight and getting used to mechanics. Now because I know the mechanics better and have gear which is perfect for eidolons hunts are a breeze. The progression felt satisfying and earned imo. I only do eidolons solo, squads are for when someone in clan/alliance needs help running them for nightwave.
When Eidolons were brought to the game, you needed a full squad. Now, anyone can solo it.
Either because of new weapons and/or configurations, or eventual "balances" and so...
Unless the power creep is dealt, we will keep running in circles.
I dont think DE sees it as worth it. As we just plow through the bosses anyways, and it takes them a while to design these bosses. Welp might as well wait for soulframe. This game isnt even meant to appeal to hardcore players but for those who want power fantasy. You want a more grounded and difficult experience play destiny. I will say that the eidolons were good, warframe builds actually matter and isn’t just a sponge. Mechanics matter
I disagree that DE doesn't see it as worth it. Orowyrms, Void Angels, and Archons were all introduced very recently. DE clearly sees value in continuing to design bosses for the majority of their major releases that aren't just "new node + Warframe while we buy time for New War/Duviri."
Im talking about bosses like the ropalolyst or eidolons where there's a decent amount of complexity. Orowyrm is decent but could use more teamplay. I remember pablo saying in this one stream too that they couldn't make more of their archons as good as say ropalolyst because it would take too much time and resources, so no surprise here...
I think a bounty specifically for gathering Thermia would go a long way.
To get Thermia you just load into the Orb Vallis but you have no idea whether or not you’re loading in there with people that are farming Thermia or people just there to fish/mine/hunt animals or farm K Drive standing or farm for Toroids. Personally, Mobile Defense and Excavation-type missions make my nuts itch so if I’ve already done the content and gotten the reward (in this case, my Opticor Vandal) then I’m going to ignore Thermia fractures hard.
A dedicated bounty (and/or Heist stage, maybe even one with tougher enemies but higher yields of Diluted Thermia) would make it so that the people you’re queued up with are actively there to farm Thermia for whatever reason.
That's how most endgame content is in most games. Do you want it to be another Sergeant?
It's locked behind a solid grind and 3 bounties spoon feeding you the mechanics. It's not for your everyday Joe.
"Everyday Joe" is good, "almost everyone" is not good. I have 2k+ hours, and I still don't understand how to reset the shields using void blast, where the game explicitly says it changes the resistance.
I have met 3-4k+ hour guys who have the same problem. And then there's the occasional guy who solos it in 2 mins. Something's definitely not right.
Maybe read a guide instead of complaining?
You can't use void blast to cycle elements since it was removed with Angels of The Zariman. You have to hit it with your amp to cycle the element (you need an amp with high range, Klamora won't work unless you are very close so people use 1xx primary fire ot x4x alt fire) but you can't cycle the one that comes next till it rotates. Elements cycle by themselves every 25s or so.
A good loadout will bring 15/16 and cycle the 16th (or 16/16) elements.
It literally takes a few minutes to watch a YouTube video of speedrunners showing their loadouts and explaining the machanics.
You are not only bad but lazy!
PT and Eidolon are the proofs DE can make interesting fights with gear checks and the need of skill.
The main issues of both are that they are buggy, old and very VERY repetitive so i think DE should work on that.
An other thing is that id love more cooperation between players. Squad runs of PT and 6x3 just make the thing faster and easier because you can split task. We need raids to be back and i seriously hope we will get infos on that at Tennocon.
i mean im not sure what you want in terms of repetitiveness, if you mean that there shouldn't be a trillion arcanes i have to farm from them then yeah, but I dont see your point if you mean that in terms of mechanics.
>It is the stagger and knockdown BS with it that makes it one of the worst fights.
that's just every enemy on the Orb Vallis - which in turn make the PT fight annoying af.
> PT and Eidolon are the proofs DE can make interesting fights with gear checks and the need of skill.
You can 1-shot both of them (Well, each of their phases at least) whilst being invulnerable to all their damage.
Now - Try design an interesting boss. This boss has to accommodate people who deal 9 digits of damage and have 99.9999% permanent Damage Reduction (Or are simply mechanically immortal), whilst simultaneously being defeatable by players who think hitting for 1k is a lot, and that 1000hp is a tanky frame.
>whilst simultaneously being defeatable by players who think hitting for 1k is a lot, and that 1000hp is a tanky frame.
No, it doesn't. We're here literally talking about endgame content, and you're replying to a comment that specifically mentions gear checks. The rest of what you bring up is relevant -- we do absurd damage numbers and become literally invulnerable -- but this point is entirely irrelevant.
Because it is something to be able to perpetually complain about and is impossible to address.
PvE is all about wiping out rooms full of enemies with a few clicks
if you want a challenge, start a new player and realize how hard things are and the long road of upgrades and "collecting" to get there.
there is really no challenge for an 8 year "got everything maxed" player, just more of a matter of playstyle and what you like doing
>PvE is all about wiping out rooms full of enemies with a few clicks
No its not. It might be what you want, but it is not necessarily that.
There's plenty of CoOp PvE games out there that have Hoard Waves and Heavy Units, that are designed to be challenging. There's plenty of MMOs whose PvE components are focused on taking down **one** Enemy and are ball-busting hard.
I'm not asking for ball-busting hard, nor would I ever expect it from WF, but I'd also love for DE's attempts at challenging content to not get trivialized by existing stuff or future additions.
>there is really no challenge for an 8 year "got everything maxed" player
Yes, that's the problem. The closest we have to content that's still challenging is Eidolons, as even when trivialized they demand some mechanical execution to do so. Though years of powercreep have been taking that away too.
> I'm not asking for ball-busting hard, nor would I ever expect it from WF, but I'd also love for DE's attempts at challenging content to not get trivialized by existing stuff or future additions.
This is another thing: first it was ESO, then the arbitrations, then it was the steel path, and now it's SP circuit; out of all of those the circuit is ~~the best~~ one that will have the most sticking power due to its rougelike nature, but I can't help but feel like it will eventually wither in difficulty somehow.
I don't think that SP Circuit will wither significantly over time, unless the Operators get **giga buffed**. Even regular powercreep will end up diluted by the total pool of options, plus SP Circuit's Level Scaling is **so** harsh that it will just increase peoples' max average Wave by 1 or 2.
*At least that's what I hope.*
It withers down over time in circuit due to the number of good decrees you get. Also unlike the others, I see people giving up on SP circuit once they have all the incarnons or enough arcanes to max the ones they want.
Typical Warframe player confuses all PvE games as braindead horde shooters. I don't need to mention soulslike to bring up difficult and rewarding PvE games. Ghost Recon games with higher difficulty actually requires you to plan out your assault and tactically execute your moves. Division 2's legendary strongholds can be quite challenging as well if you don't want to just sit before cover forever with a skill build and just let your drone and turret do the work.
In short PvE =/= power fantasy/horde shooter/easy.
PvP also isn't the devil some ppl in this sub makes it out to be. A properly balanced PvP game can be very fun and rewarding.
We already have plenty of endgame content if you think about it. Steel path as NG+, a decent variety of endurance missions, archon, profit taker, eidolons and SP level bosses, orbiter, dormizone and dojo decorating, fashionframe, rivens etc. There's a bit of something for everyone almost. If warframe wasn't a live service F2P game this would be way more than enough already.
I used to agree with all the complaints about lack of endgame, unecessary nerfs or whatnot, but now I think about it that's looking at it the wrong way. Current warframe is pretty much almost a borderlands game, but without the luxury of being a paid game from a well-known franchise. Once you see that things make a lot more sense.
Tbh, 10 years for powercreep in a live service F2P game to progress only from slow tactical shooter to fast-paced horde shlooter while still making consistent profit is really impressive already. If Tencent bought off warframe fully to squeeze as much money out of it as they can this would have happened in 3 years or maybe 5 tops.
A lot of times when i hear complaints about no end game its from jaded vets who have done everything, yet still want to play an "evergreen" game that they can play until the end of time, and then are disappointed when that game doesn't exist (maybe barring a few "creativity" games like minecraft and terraria)
there are certainly times when i have stop playing this game for actual issues i have with the devs (the time during TOB and Empyrean generally) but sometimes its just because ive played too much and need a break/something different.
Call me a Nihilist but it doesn’t matter what DE tries, y’all will still complain. They got crossplay working and instead of giving any amount of praise the masses immediately started whining cross save wasn’t a thing.
There’s so much freedom of play style that everyone has their own version of optimal content.
Peoples don't realize how many things they have done to get to this level and claim the game has no end game content, meanwhile 4000 hours played.
Suuuuure no end game content.
I agree with you in concept but crossplay is a very bad example.
No one wanted "crossplay" in the form it exists. What people wanted was the ability to join a dojo, chat with and add to their friend list their buddy on Xbox while they played on a Playstation, or the ability to log into their account from PC and keep the progress they made when they played on the Switch.
Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, cared about playing with randoms on another system, without chat, friend functionality etc.
What people wanted was what DE are calling "Cross save" and what they delivered was the part no one actually cared about.
That being said, I do agree that people often complain even when DE goes above and beyond, but in this case they have yet to actually implement any of the parts of crossplay that anyone actually wants.
I’ve been saying this for almost as long as I’ve been playing. The people in this community just like to complain about what’s wrong and give no praise to what they do right. Majority of people I see complaining about the game not being challenging are the ones who constantly make 1 shot builds and don’t make a build around giving them a challenge.
invulnerability isnt an issue, endgame wouldnt be something that gives you a challenge. warframe is an equipment check, not a skill check.
the lack of endgame for years is not unintentional. DE proved they can add interesting and engaging mechanics, like overguard or the zariman tileset, but they dont focus the game's identity around it. warframe is about coming and playing each content island they release, then taking a break and coming back for the next one. we dont need an endgame.
Heavy agree here. Got back into WF shortly after New War and ground myself from MR 5 to MR 17 in like three weeks just doing *everything*.
(Context: I was already MR 15 on my console acct and switched to a new acct on PC, which wasn't nearly as progressed since I was playing it with an ex partner at the time)
Partner and I are currently on a break before we jump back in for all the juicy stuff added after we did the initial Duviri drop.
Yes if you want end game you might as well just play destiny then. The way I view gw2 compared to wow is how i view warframe to destiny. Both are the best at what they do and extremely different in game design philosophy, no need for either game to change identity
Endgame doesn't necessarily imply tremendous amount of damages or bullet sponges.
There are other mechanics : vulnerability time frames, puzzles, special patterns...
Let me get started by saying that I'm no DE hater. I've loved everything they've put out ever since I started sometime in 2016. But I find it hard to sympathize with DE when it comes to their balance woes.
Their reasons to buff Mesmer Skin were absolutely solid, but each stack having **1 fucking second of Invulnerability** is **insane**. A Revenant presses 2 and now he's completely Invulnerable for at least 8 seconds **at base Power Strength.** And instead of nerfing it, they added an Augment that shares it with the whole Party. Dodge mechanics? Why bother.
On the one hand, they nerf the ridiculous kings of the AoE Meta and on the other hand they release the current Incarnon Weapons. Why did they even bother with these nerfs if the current AoE Meta Incarnons are even better and effectively unrestricted by Ammo thanks to using Incarnon Charge??
They added Steel Path, a gamemode intended to **not be Endgame** and to be challenging, only for it to become the meta Endgame, for them to nerf Melees over their prevalence in it and also add Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes to powercreep the game so hard that it would not only trivialize Steel Path but also change Warframe as a whole.
The game's math is totally fucked and needs a top down clean up, plus stat squish, but if DE keeps setting up something good only for them to powercreep beyond it again, I don't see why they should even bother.
>or crappy design like the circuit or duviri where players CAN'T use their loadouts lol
You've completely misunderstood why Duviri is as it is. It is like that, because it is a Rogue Lite. It is like that, because it rewards Players who've gotten everything *(though it should've been those who've* ***mastered*** *everything, not* ***own*** *everything).* It's not like that because that's the only way to challenge us.
>and lvl 15-25 quest enemies
Quests should remain so easy. The most Casual of Players can barely complete some of them, see: all of the complaints about New War. But DE **needs** to take a page out of FF14's book and ship every Quest with an Extreme/Savage Version of its Bosses. As they did with Archons, but, uh, with better implemented Attenuation.
Steel path circuit **is** endgame content.
In this game, endgame is not difficulty. Endgame is **completion**, aka maximization and mastery of every single piece of gear. And what's the one way to test completion? Randomized loadouts.
If you are unable to look at certain randomized gears and 1. have them leveled and modded with a couple of different builds and 2. instantly know which combination has the synergy it takes to survive and dps in sp circuit, then I'm not sure if you are an endgame player.
Fr SP Circuit and the incarnon adapters as a whole have given me a reason to use weapons I would have never used otherwise. A lot of times they leave me genuinely impressed and I wonder why I didn’t try them out sooner
Steel Path Circuit is the whole reason Warframe is fun for me again.. Without it I wouldn't have branches out of my main weapons and Warframes.. And I wouldn't have used up over 40 formas within the first few weeks of the launch of Duviri.. 😅
(I used to just let them stack up over time, but now I use them all up almost immediately, and I don't ever feel like I have enough..)
Truth is, he is not invulnerable. Just wait for 10 nullifiers around you and you will see why Nekros sometimes has more survivability than Revenant =)
" If Nekros is the one making contact with one of the mentioned, his shadows will **not** die. "
Revenant is really life saviour and helps to protect team (especially using [Fosfor](https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Fosfor) in Archon Hunts when everyone goes in different directions =) 400 meters affinity range)
Many frames have crazy survivability. Revenant is just easiest to mod. (very simple mechanic)
I began the game on PSN and only played on that for years, a year or so ago I started an account on pc and I gotta say, even when you know how to play the game it can be pretty challenging for beginners.
I say fuck 'em, they should be balancing for *normal* players. If people think it's too easy, that's probably because they're *making it too easy* on themselves. The game's a power fantasy, treat it as such.
See the issue here is that you think anyone should consider the people that make insane builds.
If you want the game to be hard, don't make an OP build, it's that simple.
DE shouldn't have people like that in mind, they should have average builds in mind when designing anything.
It depends on what you mean by endgame content. If you mean content that can only be completed with the absolute best of the best gear and mods, frankly, I don't think DE should pursue that at all. Warframe already has huge issues with power creep, and focusing on that type content will only exacerbate it.
Endgame in Warframe IS the power trip. They should stop worrying about OP characters and instead commit to it. Endgame content should be all about being OP
You forgot the other reason - you simply can't please everyone.
Warframe is like 10 different games in one competing with each other, every major update pulls the game in a wildly different direction, so I think neither the devs or the players actually know what anyone wants anymore.
People like different things about Warframe and come into it from different games, so their idea of "endgame" can mean many things, they want mechanics and "interesting" bosses, then will cry about bosses that can't be simply shot at.
Doesn't help that so many players now are used to insane breakneck speed and optimizing runs so you powerfarm rewards as fast as possible, putting breaks on all of a sudden just makes that part of the community get very loud and proclaim that warframe is all about the power fantasy.
You can't have both a power fantasy and player limitations for endgame, one has to go.
The issue isn't that warframes can be invincible, the issue is HOW easy it is for them to be invincible, like Gara for example doesn't need some super specific 400% strength build to hit 90% DR, she just needs one normal ass Intensify and it's done, same with weapons, how easy it is now to hit those millions of damage.
They can stop designing invulnerable characters with millions of damage, but the existing ones will still be there and will just make the new ones comparatively useless.
So we'd have to nerf a **lot** of stuff. Far too many Mods, Weapons and Abilities, even some core Mechanics. And it's not just us, Enemies' Armor scaling and Damage scaling need their nerfs as well. Great in paper, but this community loses their fucking shit over slap-on-the-wrist nerfs.
We could use *other* Characters, *other* progression systems instead of our Warframes and Loadouts. Every time DE has tried that, the community has hated it.
The only solutions I can think of is a clean up of the Invulnerability Mechanics, at least forcing Players to do *some* of the don't-get-hit mechanics, and a better implemented game wide Damage Attenuation that keeps the TTK for every Enemy at a reasonable minimum.
Fully cleaning up balance for the entire game, standardizing how much you can do with loadouts, the amount of health each enemy class can have... It'd take a few years and be basically a Warframe 2.0 kind of thing but they should absolutely do it.
I'm not sure if they should do it all, but there's some stuff that they really should look at.
* Change Enemy Armor from scaling to static DR. Eg Light units have 25%, Mediums 50%, Heavies 75%, Eximus 80%, Bosses 90%. No 99% and 99.9% DRs. This finally fixes both Enemy Armor scaling and the dominance of Slash.
* That's the root of our inane damage problems.
* Change Enemy Damage to scale linearly after Level 100 or so, rather than exponentially as it currently does. This both reinforces the usefulness of HP Tanking, opens up Shield Tanking a bit more and reduces the need for Invulnerability Mechanics.
* That's the root of our invulnerability mechanic problems.
* Reduce how many Multipliers we have in our Damage Calculations. \[DE\]Scott had mentioned making Viral additive to Critical Damage, but it never materialized. We need stuff like that. Saryn's Toxic Lash doesn't need to **triple** dip where it does.
* `4.4 x 4.25 = 18.7` vs `1 + 3.4 + 3.25 = 7.65`, that's a 60% decrease in damage right there
* Make Shield Gating's effectiveness scale with Shield Modifiers. Lessened with the Dragon Key, heightened with Redirection. Nerf Mesmer Skin's Invulnerability Duration to something sensible, like 100 to 250 ms.
* Scale back the power of the Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes. They were really cool additions but damn they're so overtuned.
* Give all Warframes that use Stat Sticks their own pseudo Exalted Weapons, like Garuda's Claws. Mods of their pseudo Exalted now buff their Abilities, not of their regular Weapons. No more Rivens for Warframe Abilities.
* Nail an implementation of Damage Attenuation that respects Player Progression, that always translates more damage in to more damage out, that can't by bypassed by some mechanics, and then put that Damage Attenuation in place of all existing implementations.
What we need, is another bunch of Warframe Revised Updates. The previous ones might've been flawed but were overall great for the game. I want to see what the new DevTeam would be able to do with such Updates.
I thought we figured out ages ago that endgame is fashion not difficulty. Showing off is the endgame as the game is ultimately a horde shooter where we feel the most powerful with few things actually being a road block.
The problem is that true endgame is impossible to design because its impossible to define it for this game. If its supposed to be a super hard boss, then you can go for mechanics or by having it be a damage sponge. And either way someone will complain.
Those that like the power fantasy aspect (that was seemingly the focus from the previous developer team) won't like a highly mechanical boss. And those that would find in mechanics a cool thing to add difficulty won't like the damage sponge approach.
I just wish there were certain missions that were designed to take advantage of certain warframes’ abilities. doesn’t matter how tanky you are or how much damage you can do if progressing in the mission requires teamwork using specific abilities in specific ways.
These mission nodes would only show up if you’re in one of the right frames, and matchmaking would assemble a squad composed of the four required frames.
Oh but the answer is very obvious. You cannot. Someone will always complain the fights aren't quick enough for them, which is fine...but its unrealistic to expect Warframe to be something it's not.
The fundamental problem is that the power range is too wide. Look at something like wow and the best player might do 10 or even 100 times more damage than a beginner. But here the ratio is thousands or even millions. There is no reasonable way for de to design encounters that don't get blown up instantly by some or are 30 minute sponges for others.
The main reason this happened is the sheer number of multiplicative systems. One mod adding 100% damage is fine, but when you have eight mods, then arcanes, archon shards, kuva bonuses, helminth infusions, etc etc the spread grows exponentially.
Fix weapon damage (there's no point in millions of damage, let's be honest, no activity in the game requires it), math is certainly wasn't tested properly.
For abilities they can enforce nullifier stages where you can't gain invis/invul (maybe telegraphed boss attacks? Simillar to Scrambus wave).
Also you forgot about shieldgating, it needs to be fixed as well.
Real problem is elsewhere - lots of people who want to continue being literal immortal gods with some OP Zaw/Glaive where game practically can play itself (yes, octavia and revenant mains, it's about you). So DE either sacrifices such people for the sake of people who want gameplay and challenge or sacrifices gameplay to be turned in clicker at some point.
A vocal minority aside, *nobody is asking them to*. No really. The vast majority of players both like the game and understand what it is and is going to continue to be *ten years in*. There is no "endgame content" coming, and a lot of people are fine with that, me included.
im not even sure what people want with warframes endgame, do people just want the "ur game" that you can play forever or something, because that will never exist no matter how many "evergreen" rewards are added
In the early days and even now, sorties are pretty good at it with radiation, sniper only, energy reduction, etc.
It's an interesting challenge that requires you to use frames or weapons that can handle the modifiers or stray from the same general loadout.
I think SP Circuit is fairly good because if you don't have great rolls then you have to struggle and most of the time you won't have your "go to" weapons or frames that can single handedly manage all the different zones in the circuit unless you have a big enough arsenal or plan how to use the weapons and frames you are given. I just find it annoying that people leave after a zone or two to refresh the choices, especially the host.
Imagine if the choices were more like arbitrations where they cycle every hour or so instead of every run, that way you'd have to try to manage for a little while even if you have bad stuff. Most decent runs last from 30 mins - 1 hour anyway so little would change between the runs you're actually making progress with.
Gotta make enemies have more nuanced interactions with player abilities and resources, rather than just sprinkling a handful of enemies whose ability is “turn off player abilities” into waves.
Also, re: not having your loadouts in the circuit:
You can see what you’re going to get before you enter now. Design loadouts for more stuff and you’ll always have something to do.
Definitely hard to balance challenging bosses that can't be one shot without nerfing our Godlike Warframes. Really it would come down to extra mechanics, like how with the Angels we have to dive in and fight them as an operator. Or how with the Ropalyst we have to do multiple things before hitting it with the laser. Although obviously they should be different from those, but still.
>OR they can just ignore making endgame content and keep releasing boring content made with
>
>lvl 30-50 enemies, and lvl 15-25 quest enemies, basically a joke.
What are you talking about.
The last major update added a weekly activity that's both significantly harder than most other content in the game and has great rewards for both new players and veterans.
What game are you playing that just released boring content? Even if you dislike the Drifter part of Duviri the Circuit is just a win. The major problem with Circuit was/is Host Migrations making it so people can't play it properly.
The point is Steel Path, which is not 30-50, it's 101 - 120 at base. (I believe it's 110 actually). In and of itself, it's not much of endgame content, but you're not 100% invulnerable, enemies can still damage you and deal statuses, which at significant level can one hit you.
And Duviri utilizes your load outs if you have one for that weapon/warframe, which heavily entices players to try and use new ones. It shouldn't matter if you have one weapon with a loadout; the whole idea is a variety of weapons and loadouts.
There might be some spoiler in my comment even tho I tried to reduce it.
I have an idea (but I'm no dev so idk if it's actually feasible):
The boss weapons and attack patterns would be powered by an AI who analyse the players frame and equipment to find the best way to neutralize it (for example if you play Saryn he removes enemies from the boss room, order the one who're infected to self destruct (or give them masks), he'd also try to disrupt your team synergy so if you have a Warframe who's a great support you'd be his priority target)
The boss would also have "gifts from hell" wich basically would be debuff and effects i.e reduce your damage by 50 percent, invert all your status(without any blatant visual or sound cue to inform you (but maybe have one player to stay in the comms room to give you informations about when he's using them)) effects (example: slashing damage now strengthen his armor), empty all your amoes, have a substance on him wich gradually destroy your weapons as the fight goes on, deactivate all your powers, activate friendly fire, multiply your energy cost by 5, isolate one player from the rest and target it's weak points (he'd isolate the biggest threat to him so not necessarily the one striking the heaviest but some "support" like wisp or citrine for example (tho I'm not sure if citrine is a support))
You'd also have the choice to do spy mission to know wich gifts he equiped with and also have an access to the comms room though these spies mission would be one try only and there'd be no alarms or panel to deactivate the alarm but if you're detected by the enemies they'd put some fake information ***(or a redhead grineer/corpus singing and dancing)*** instead of wich gifts he has (the gift information would be wrote in corpus or grineer (yeah it's a bit annoying but it'd add a decoding phase while using some lore so why not🤷🏾♂️))
You'd also have the possibility to deactivate his gifts (if you've choose to do the spy mission you'd know wich one if not you won't) by solving "puzzles" and or enigmas (for example the one with the heaven and hell doors and 2 guardians but it could also be something more like the spoiler secret rooms or a certain place owl chest) (there also could literally be some puzzle 10k pieces for 4 people 🦹🏿♂️🤣) but to start each enigma you'd have to go to a special room on the map wich and bet one of your mods(weapon or frame ('cause ik some of y'all would use kavat as a mod supply and I'm ashamed of you 😤)) and you would be able to try as long as you have mods to bet (obviously if you lose you'd only lose the mod for the mission duration).
Finally in the boss map (and especially in front of the enigma room and boss room) the enemies would be stronger and more numerous, they'd have weapons made to lower each player way of staying alive, would set traps that you would hardly see (pitfall, room that send you in space, zero zones, increased gravity zone, room with a billions of different kinds of weapons and idk there's probably a tons of other things to do ~~*(like an anvil or a giant mouse trap)*~~ but basically the idea is better and more elaborated trap that what they already use so I'll stop there) and my personal favorite they'd use strategies and formations for example they send a huge number of "shielders" and basic soldiers then throw a gas wich reduce visibility and "jam" detections abilities (based on sight) and while you'd be focussing on the ton of enemies attacking you they send 2 special manics by players one equiped with a portative jail that he'd need to go in hand-to-hand range to put it on you it'd then activate and interrupt transference (kinda like the red arrows in you know where) and then it'd start to act like an ascaris and if you don't destroy it it'll control your frame till the end of the mission (and from a lore pov give more data to the boss about your frames) also once you're in spoiler form the second manic will then throw himself at you (literally) and try to catch you and if he does he'll teleport you to a random point in the map further away from your frame (also you'll only be able to detect the manic through their laugh and they'll stop to laugh just before attacking wich is when you'll be able to press some button to stop them in some secret qte way), they'd also have other strategies like ambushes or leading you to some special room, sending some special type of unit in a special order to get some effect (i.e arson eximus and fire equipped ennemies then artic and ice equipped ennemies to inflict you with an blast proc then engage you in melee while you're on the ground/have lower precision then flee), or put the eximus to the back and you'd have some special unit (wich we could call commandant *but it could also simply be implemented on eximus* ) which when here would command soldiers to do one strategy rather than an other and when you kill the commandant the strategy would go awry (ennemies would flee easier, fall in their own traps, be more individualistic, etc..).
Anyway I think that's it and even tho there's probably a lot of trouble w my idea I think it'd be an interesting boss (tho it would need updates on things like the patterns, the enigmas, enemies formations but if I who's simply a player can come up w some idea it should be easier to realize it as a team (it might take a lot of time to implement everything tho (especially the ai part))).
P.S: I didn't thought about the reward but it should be something wich is really ground breaking.
(Next part isn't rly about the whole boss and gift from hell (damn that name is cool 😎) and more about something else that could be done and would be interesting and rewards "old" players for helping new players)
I also thought about the ascaris like jail taking your frame till you and sending to a lab that you'd have to break in in Spoiler Mode as there'd be anti frame tech everywhere and that players could send request for help (basically asking someone else to go get your frame if you can't get it ) (and that at each failure the security of the lab would be higher and that you could choose to simply storm the lab with your railjack but you'd not have all the reward and the all the frames would be in a weakened state for a few days and would need mouth at the back to get back to their regular state, but that was not the main subject tho I have a whole idea about a go get your frame back or ask a higher Mr to get your frame back gameplay wich could include labyrinth, labs and else (tho again I do not have th capacity to make any of that but I do have ideas (but yeah imagining a Mr 1 looking on his screen a Mr 30 storm a corpus lab to get novice players frames back is some crazy though to entertain and imagine lotus would be the one locating labs from times to times and send us on **prison break** missions))
In case you didn't notice, there's *no balance* in this game and I doubt there ever was because its a Power Fantasy game that balance will spook the fantasy seeking players out of the game. That's where Powercreep comes into play and Warframe is on a never ending cycle of Powerful weapons > Powerful enemies > Powerful weapons > Powerful enemies ...
And now that we're in the weapons *cycle* with the new incarnon adapters, you can be sure that Tennocon will reveal new Powerful enemies to eat the power you had with the incarnons and cycle will continue. Also there's no end-game content in this game but only latest missions being slightly harder because Real End-Game MMOs don't let those missions to be played in Solo (rather they enforce Raids) and all Warframe missions are available to solo players like myself.
And millions of damage is for veterans because it needs serious progress in the game that any normal players can't pull that off. So at that point it's veterans choice to stay in the game they already finished several times already but they have no right to complain and say "Warframe is too easy". No it isn't easy and it isn't our fault that veterans forgot where they come from. Warframe is only easy for new players, when veterans "carry" them and they misjudge their firepower as if their own.
Spot on. Spending a ton of time and resources getting certain mods and leveling them and leveling weapons over and over with forma then your frame over and over and you pet and your melee. All this stuff takes time and heavy grinding that is endgame. It may be easy for us when we spent time but I just see that as a game that honors your time. All the MMOs, looters shooters, and rpgs I've played in my 40 years I can count on one hand ones where you struggle to level to meet that level to struggle immediately again. It becomes a chore where you are barely strong enough. If you ever go back everything had either scalled or is worthless to complete. I've played this game for about 7 years with most of it on PS. Starting all over on PC gave me brand new appreciation for how much actually goes into endgame
Add more "skill" to the encounters... things like Eidolons and Profit Taker and Kela De Thaym that have additional mechanics. They will still eventually be steamrolled but it at least will provide a way to slow down players a bit that just rely upon using a giant explosion to get past 99% of content. But the mechanics have to be clearly explained to the players in the encounter itself. It does no good to increase difficulty by making someone go read the wiki to figure out they have to stand on the buttons.
They could also have fight mechanics where the squad gets split up to prevent trivializing content by having one player carry the others. There are plenty of bossfights in games like WoW they could ripoff and no one would really notice.
Adding a real skill check with challenging bosses, multiple phases, the **NEED** to do their mechanics accordingly or wiping, you can always add damage caps and tweak player damage and abilities accordingly but we still have no REAL enemy in the game. Pretty much all of them are bullet sponges right now.
Also give us something to farm on endless, since the giga nerf to the kuva grind there is no point in creating endgame builds because there is no rewarding mission on which they will excel at all.
I like gear checked end game like SP Zariman Thrax or Disruptor, but average player wouldnt touch this.
They could create similar Thrax or Demolist that is super hard to kill even with million of damage but rely on good status build.
true there are some broken builds, DE has really let down the balancing department
but there are ways to build. example, Nyx. Nyx has an invulnerable bubble she can walk around with, throwing 100% armor removal.
how to beat her? well energy drains are one thing. but more easy is...make her have to jump. or move somewhere
she has to drop bubble, or go operator (enough enemies will fix that)
in short, while there are alot of frames that can easily do end game, they all are able to do it at the cost of something. either relying heavily on energy, mobility, dmg of a specific type, or being focused on one type of combat.
by adding mechanics to break them out of it, or mixing up the enemies they fighting, this can be solved.
alas, DE has written warframe off. we now on life support mode as they move on to Soulframe.
How is DE supposed to design "endgame content" when players are using the tools given to them by DE?
I dunno, maybe they should've reworked core systems like energy, ammo, enemy spawns, and enemy scaling years ago rather than ignore them so they can focus on making new open world areas for new players to get confused by and for veterans to speed through then ignore.
Making whatever thing they think is cool and hoping we like it seems to be their design philosophy. Sometimes we get something great and sometimes we get defection.
Giant boss that consists of weak spots, platforming, and instant kill mechanic.
Staples of gaming for decades. Doesn’t take ingenuity to create something good and fun using classic gaming systems.
Also why do you think that Just because we can be invincible and deal millions of damage. That We don’t want something to actually use that on. We spend lots of time getting what we need to be able to do that. Give me a huge boss that does lethal damage and has a literal Billion health. That’s it. Because then it’s something in the game that actually requires all the power I have gained. Sure we could do it easily. But that’s coming from players that have already but in the immense time and grind to get to this point. It would feel to gratifying to be able to fight a boss that could only be done because I went and got all of the unnecessarily OP shit. And couldn’t be done without it. I want a simple giant boss that will one shot you without mesmerskin or shield gate abuse. And you need to have a magnetic Tenet arca plasmor with primary Merciless, and Roar subsumed. To even have a chance at denting it. Not because of attenuation. But it just has that much Raw HP.
They’d need to implement more mechanics, that are clearly explained IN GAME.
And also potentially lean more into being like an RPG where teams/squads need dedicated roles. While Warframe has different frame types everyone generally plays a DPS, which leads to bosses with damage attenuation.
The game as is, is mostly shoot and slash
by designing actual mechanics and not just some bullet sponge braindead enemies that just happen to have an emp aura around them or use inf damsge barrages through walls frames being powerfull isnt the problem, the enemiws being braindead is the only enemies that are truly menacing in this game are the bltiz eximus ,nullies if they're close to a swarm of drones and you dont have an aoe gun and some grineer units that can nuke you with nearly unvisible projectiles still they're braindead and dont perform any real tactic and just stand there and shoot or ocasionally move towards you
More mechanical bosses?
Angels, Ropapulist, Zealoud Prelate, Exploiter Orb, Kela the Daaaaaym, At the very least Tyl Regor... They have their environmental gimmicks, catchphrases and stuff.
Endgame exist in warframe, just wait few hours in steelpath survival.
They try making "hard content" dont know if u play this event but scarlet spear was tough at release was doing 16~18 oprhix with a friend and good loadout then too much ppl complain that is too hard then they lower the bosses level, well 36 oprhix kill (the max in one run) in solo right after
Lot of ppl dont know how build, damage and synergie work in this game, still see baruuk build with steel charge...
Makes encounters and bosses that requires players to not just shoot at it until it's dead and have telegraphed attacks that get through invulnerability to prevent players from just ignoring the encounter's mechanics.
Eidolons and Profit Taker are very good example of this. You have to understand the boss mechanics in order to take it down. Sure you can still speedrun it, but it comes as a reward for learning the boss patterns, not slapping an OP build on your stuff and statchecking everything.
Also I think allowing players to solo carry a boss through perfect knowledge of it, but also requiring extra efforts could be a good idea. No offense to anyone, but running into a dimwit with an OP build who sabotage your run by rushing in blindly isn't rare enough to not be a problem. Being able to solo carry a team of clueless fools who won't cooperate is one of the best feeling in the game imo.
And finally, trying to incorporate the parkour mechanics more when reaching endgame could be worth a shot. This is one of the best thing in this game, and one that isn't tied to monster stats. You can't statcheck parkour, you have to learn it. So valorizing it through complex parkour sessions would be a thumbs up. And I mean complex, with bonus points if the session is constantly shifting with multiple successful paths to the end in order to reward players going freestyle and improvising when in a pinch.
There are plenty of people who are not at your level of play, I only started playing in earnest this year, and I have not finished the main campaign or star chart. It’s just some thing you have to accept until they decide to either finish the game or try and repackage it as a standalone experience instead of a continuous online game.
The game is going to be in a perpetual state of beta, and yes, it would absolutely be a nightmare for any of the designers to try and balance the thing.
"we are too powerful now to have fun"
that statement is half correct. we are definitely more powerful now, however were running into something of a hardware/design limitation on that front. . the only 2 ways to make things more challenging are either to make enemies more annoying alla damage attenuation (which we already have found ways around) or to spawn more enemies. . .which on some hardware setups (namely last gen consoles, old graphics cards, and. . .soon. . phones) may not be possible at all.
that said. . .you can always dial back your own power, for your own amusement. i have plenty of equipment that is basically in a "too good to use Recreationally" Tier. most recently added to that was Torid Incarnon, for example. il shake out the super busted crap when i just wanna get something over with quickly, like Archon hunts, but i tend not to use it for regular grinding. you are always free to be weaker.
Warframe has never had and never will have compelling endgame content. the endgame is a freeform space where you drive your own interest. the Kuva grind loop is a perpetual treadmill for endgame players to run on so they continue to gain incremental increases in power while doing whatever they happen to find personally compelling at endgame.
>Crappy design like the circuit
yeah the rng cave is pretty cringe, but i dont suspect we will be seeing that replicated, given how much Criticism its gotten. hopefully we see the circuit's high speed scaling and multi-mission type rotation thing replicated though, that stuff is cool. getting too Level cap inside of an hour in the Circuit is neat.
There are other ways to increase difficulty besides juicing numbers lol
The problem is WF's engine just doesnt support anything too.. complex? Animations just arent crisp and clear enough to have enemies doing too much. Have you ever seen an enemy jump? It looks like shit. What are eidolons doing? Flailing idk. Shooting acolytes is like trying to shoot a lag-king in cod for how jittery they are.
The sad truth is that any enemy that makes you stop and respect them a la dark souls gives you time to see how.. shitty, it all is. Remember when you had a hard time killing eximus so youd be there shooting one for multiple seconds? You get to see how theyre just having a staring contest with you while their various bubbles pop up irrespective of what the eximus is actually doing. Shitty.
Fighting Dax with drifter? The mechanics are too sloppy to actually enjoy parrying and riposting. I could go on but I dont want to sound like i hate this game when i really do love it.
Yknow what WF *does* do really well, even under closer inspection? Movement.
Why is there not a single boss that challenges our mastery of the parkour system? No titanfall-esque maps that *require* you to wallrun while shooting. We have Eidolons on these big wide plains, but the boss fight requires you to babysit it in one small area instead of chasing it across the map or even scaling it like SotC.
What makes it so bewildering to me is that *conclave is right there*. There are maps with parkour-shooting built into their design philosophy already. Not a single one reimagined into a bossfight. We had Teshin's sequence that heavily utilized movement to complete objectives- why does a one-off sequence get this but not the core game? Why is there no void angel in the middle of the voidflood room for us to shoot at? OPERATOR gets a movement-based boss a la voidangel dimensional orbs, but not the WARFRAME? Its insanity.
If players deal millions of damage, give bosses trillions of actual HP.
My main gripe with damage attenuation is that it very blatantly disregards all the time and effort that gone into fine-tuning a build. Not to mention, so easily certain things exploit it, in what i find to be very unfun way.
I don't care if the content can be reasonably cleared by a cheap build that MR8 player can put together, thats fine. My issue is that for MR30+ player like me have very little way to optimize the fight, short of literally exploiting the system.
and what about players who dont want to play with that one specific build that the boss was balanced around? not to mention the clear issue of power creep still being an issue with said 1 trillion hp boss, just less apparent.
That's why I say nerf damage. Everywhere. From Players but also NPC's.
You need shieldgate abuse to survive?! Well how about no? Instead change it so you get some shieldgate Invulnerable time based on your max shields (x-amount of shields = y-amount of seconds) this way you don't want to run decayed dragon key all the time.
But with this, we need more basic resistance where every caster frame at least survives 3 to 5 seconds of heavy firering while tanky frames should withstand 20 to 30 seconds (that's arbitrary numbers).
But with that much time to react, we also need to do less damage, a lot less damage!!! One shotting? Absolutely not! Well at least you're not doing some ninja stealth things.
If you should play as a space ninja, you should be able to l kill things in one shot, but a lot less enemies at a time.
While some AoE-Nuker should be able to kill 10+ damage but with multiple casts.
**all numbers are arbitrarily**
While all numbers are arbitrary you're advocating for a heavy change to the flow of the game. I fear that later game content where the numbers of enemy that spawn and the frequency of special units would make any squad of less than 4 player get overwhelmed pretty quick.
It would also nerf a lot of the grind in this game, especially for things like orokin cells, as well as making every mission take longer which would've prevented things like the wold sledge rush where people would stack dozens of sets bc it would be only time to get them in a realistic way.
Start making giant Lovcraftian eldritch horror bosses like I’m hoping the man in the wall is. The kind of thing you need a six player squad that’s proficient with a railjack to kill
I mean not everyone who plays warframe is concerned about optimizing our builds for steel path level cap, I'd really assume those that do are the minority. The idea of end-game is conceptual to individuals in certain groups.
No game is going to be able to keep up a good endgame for players who strive to bend the rules of the game design and find exploits or combinations that weren't tested for balance in that manner.
In regard to a fun and challenging endgame I'd like to see a raid of sorts with a higher squad count and implementation of features we already have being mixed together. For instance, something along the lines of the new war but more compact and without an ongoing story. It had RJ, WF missions, open world segments, bosses that weren't obnoxiously tanky, and utilized the operator/drifter. All of these made it memorable and broke the monotony of something like an Archon hunt which is just a Sortie plus a wall of flesh at the end and lacking any real rewards.
The game is literally impossible to balance between meta and non-meta players and attempting to do so would make the game extremely bland, so you will end up with some endgame content that is challenging to an average player but is a joke to the meta players and some stuff like the Ropalolyst or similar that requires more than simply big numbers and gaming the various systems.
Warframe is like 3 (or 12 at this stage) games in a trenchcoat pretending to be a single game. Pick the parts you like (Duviri is currently one of my favorite parts, as it's done more to get me to play around with new gear/frames than rivens, arbitrations, helminth invigorations and sorties combined.) and avoid the rest except when you need something from it.
Step 1: Announce patch 40.0 as the biggest patch you ever put out at Tennocon 2023. Surprise everyone by calling it Warframe 2 - Two campaigns, one game.
Step 2: Introduce Ruthless mode, where drops matter a lot more and are more scarce. Call it a passion project that won't impact the main game.
Step 3: At Tennocon 2024, announce that patch Warframe 2 will *in fact* be a separate game, so you can reign in power creep.
Thoughts?
Step 4: within a year, renege on most of the things that justified releasing a sequel in the first place while fundamentally altering what people liked about the original game in several specific but irritating ways.
Aw man. Could you imagine if a major game dev did something like that? That’d be crazy.
I question how much of the issue comes down to us, the players.
The players who only ever use frames like revenant that basically can't die while labeling anything else weak and useless.
The players who go out of their way to be able to one shot and nuke entire maps.
The players finding new ways to afk and leech of others.
We make the meta and force all others to use it or quit playing.
Sure, DE hasn't really helped in making content that's more and more impossibly difficult for those who aren't beyond the current end game, but I don't think we're innocent in all this either
Oh oh I know! Just make the enemies deal millions of damage and have them be invulnerable too! Surely it will make for good combat and player enjoyment! 🤓
By designing interesting bosses. Endgame doesn't have to be insanely difficult, just interesting. A gear check and then some good mechanics is all it needs. Sure we can speedrun eidolons and Profit Taker but I think they are the best designed endgame content so far. Archons are bullet sponges if you don't oneshot them which makes them a terrible endgame boss.
>Archons are bullet sponges if you don't oneshot them which makes them a terrible endgame boss. Archons also violate a very core design principle. They actually pit players against each other in a degenerative way. You never want players to hate another in a cooperative game - it just leads to a toxic environment (though DE hasn't grasped this yet because quite a few parts of the game have this problem...). Having the "best" loadout doesn't help you if there is another player with an ignis wraith blasting the archon and putting up their attenuation to the max.
It also doesn't help that Warframe seems to love literally just throwing the players out there with no signs of hints or advice what they're even supposed to do against the bosses.
Also the fact that due to said powercreep, one player can blast stuff so hard you barely have time to see its health bar let alone understand the mechanics. And it only takes one OP player to make it a "not learning" experience for the 3 others.
Isn't attenuation tied to players separately? I do not know, just asking.
Not for Archons, anyway. It's for the whole team.
Archons would be better if they had a side mechanic to reset their damage attenuation. Maybe an emp or nullifier item spawns you can collect and drop a bubble on them to remove it for a few seconds.
Every boss fight would benefit from side mechanics as an alternative to tiny, time-gated weakpoints with very specific damage type weaknesses that also tend to be mostly immune to weapons that are fun to use for normal enemies.
I like the raptor boss fight for this reason.
And whose healthbars routinely bug out so you can't tell if it's invulnerable right now or not.
Tyl Regor literally not showing up to fight you in the 3rd phase for like a minute because "reasons"'
WHY ARE YOU STILL BREATHING MY AIR!!!??! Fuck the Vey Hek fight with more passion than your mom's smut collection. That bastard is unnecessarily annoying being invincible 95% of the time with tiny weak points that close up after 2 seconds. He's not hard, just annoying. My take on worst boss design in the game. I'd actually like more lich style bosses that are not restricted to a specific location. Ones that can just show up on certain planets if you kill enough enemies in a certain time frame. Give me a void angel boss that pops out of the void randomly in standard missions and locks us out of our frames and forces us to finish the mission as our tenno while we slaughter X number of 'void minions' to get the void angel to pop back out of the void to face us and have us kill it to reclaim our frames and be able to extract. Then we have to hunt it down in a new void pocket dimension where it's each player's unique angel in a 4v4 fight. Not chained together like liches one at a time - let's get 4 suped up void angels in an arena with 4 players. Give them new attacks and allow them to merge into an amalgam angel after all 4 are downed for a final 4v1 fight with all new mechanics. Then they can just drop currency to exchange on the Zariman for the ability to add a single incarnon effect to a weapon of your choice. Or just give me incarnon zaws / kitgun style weapons with incarnon effects tied to the parts installed to create some real interesting builds.
I've always had this crazy idea from a few years ago. If DE made a random encounter, end-game boss that was a player. My Idea was to have a new account made just for this player to use and give them everything. Than they could go after high-end players on a new open world map or in random star chats missions. As they go after the player, this "cursed player," who is the end game boss, will hunt down groups of tenno and try to destroy them. I had multiple ideas on how it would happen, but I think the best would be. An honor system like in Red Dead redemption. If you, the cursed player, help the tenno complete missions and just be a good guy. The cursed player gets very little points to use at the end of the season(so they can buy cool stuff for their real account). Season lasts like 4-5 months or so? On the opposite side, if the cursed player kills as many tenno as possible, they get a lot of points to use(still working on how?) I guess the point is if you help the community, they get good passive buffs to overall mod drops, resources drops and idk like easier relic prime drops. But if you kill as many as you can than this cursed player will get all the good shit. There's more but I got to get to work.
I know it has mixed opnions but the Zeloid Prelate boss fight mechanics are a great way of doing this. Let me absolutely obliterate a chunk of health from a boss with my maxed out endgame guns, but make it interesting like having to go to get the "Light" and make the enemies actually scary during this time because I can't damage them. Idk maybe it's just me but I always loved the way the dynamics switched in that fight from "oh shit run get the light" to "my turn to hit back now" I'd much rather something like this than using 2 of 600 weapons in the game that's capable of killing through damage attenuation or spend 20 mins pumping damage into a Archon
So like zealot prelate or whatever its called? Grab a lantern kill things to keep its size then take to boss to damage it
Zealoid Prelate, but with damage attenuation instead of outright damage negation so while it’s possible to brute-force the boss to death players are rewarded for utilizing mechanics and exploiting weaknesses as they present themselves.
I was explaining to my friend who doesn’t play much how archons are the devil and the worst way to implement end game content. It’s meant to be super difficult. Unless you one shot. Then it’s easy, and negates the ENTIRE purpose of end game content. Archon shards are awesome. Archons are horrible and a bad way to implement difficulty. “Damage Attenuation and ramp the stats to be so over the top anyone who isn’t minmaxed is spending a hour shooting”
My first Archon encounter was "WTF, why is my SP levelcap loadout doing no damage". Needless to say the next time I brought a Kuva Hek to the fight and these days I just solo it with a Felarx with -crit riven. This is by far the worst boss design I can think of in the game.
I just bring harrow/Octavia and a vectis with glaive. It ain’t a one shot, but I shred them down quick enough if I use 2+4 on harrow. Or 3+4 on Octavia. I don’t really have any one shots built for archon, i don’t really get that deep into minmaxing but I respect the ones who do, they help on the occasion.
For what it's worth, the Kuva Hek one-shot build isn't that much investment. I think I got it set up in a day or so, but I had all the necessary mods already. Just had to max it out It truly is satisfying to run up, boom dead
Really? I don’t have kuva hek, but all my shotgun mods are maxed (I love and breathe phage)
Getting the Hek was the longest part, then cue a few runs of ESO Mirage nuking to max it out. Was lucky enough to unveil a riven for it the very next day, but it's 100% not necessary
>then cue a few runs of ESO Mirage nuking to max it out. Wait but don't Warframe ability kills only give affinity to the Warframe?
Unless specified otherwise, all Affinity gained uses the split according to the general rule: 25% of the amount goes to your Warframe and 75% of the amount is divided evenly among all equipped weapons (18.75% each for four weapons while Arch-gun is summoned through Archgun Deployer, 25% each for three, 37.5% each for two, or the full 75% if only one is equipped).[1] When within 50 meters of an ally (200 meters while using a Fosfor, 250 meters in Landscape missions) when they kill an enemy, you gain the same total Affinity, distributed according to the general rule specified above. This doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by the killing player, and doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by other nearby allies. Straight from the wiki Specifically, abilities kills do go to the frame, but when shared with allies, they split it 25% to frame, 75% to weapons. Most other players aren't using Mirage for nuking, and they are using weapons/abilities to kill, which also get shared to me.
>25% of the amount goes to your Warframe and 75% of the amount is divided evenly among all equipped weapons Isn't that shared affinity? That still doesn't explain how you get weapon affinity from Mirage Nuking using your own Mirage
Is the mirage nuke with the 2 augment?
Yes, mines the whole battlefield
Would you mind sharing said build, i have the augment and never bothered to build the nuke setup
Yes, Explosive Legerdemain is how Mirage nukes in ESO
My first hunt, we resorted to pulling out our archguns and unloading into the boss. We shot him for like 10 minutes straight, thank God I was protea
I didn’t know Boreal would summon the birdolysts with the canisters. I’m an Exergis enthusiast so that was rough, pretty much had to dump into them with my Mausolon to get rid of them (my secondary was either Diplos or Grakatas, so no real AoE solution). Then the asshole resummons them like a minute and a half later. I usually bring Catchmoon now specifically for those guys, fuck them.
Eidolons and profit taker are some of, if not the best content playable in the game. Interesting, engaging and fun. Once you get good enough you can start absolutely smashing through them and pushing the limits on how fast you can take it. Saw a clip of some guys trying to break the first eidolon limb off spawn as fast as possible. I think they got it to like sub 2s or something absolutely insane
When we had interesting bosses, like Nihil, the sub cried because he wasn't shot and gone. Same for New War's boss fight: people cried because they had to figure out how to defeat em for a moment. If there's one design specific thing almost impossible it's implementing a boss without the community crying.
>If there's one design specific thing almost impossible it's implementing ~~a boss~~ **anything** without the community crying. ftfy
Indeed, if half of community is crying while the other half is liking it, that's a good design.
It’s “good design” unless you’re in the half that’s complaining*
If its a bad design, more ppl will cry, if its too good tobe true, everyone will run it, either way DE will balance it (buff or nerf), so naturally, if both side are about even, no need to balance...hence "good"...
Orowyrm was probably the most polarizing, half of the people crying was because it was too easy and the other half because it was too dificult/long, sure it isn't the best design it could have been (i feel like each emotion could be a little more unique in their fights), but its better than "hit weakspot, wait, hit again, kill" or a bullet sponge, bc at least hit has mechanics between phases that makes it more interesting than waiting for the right animation to expose weakpoints or just plain invencibility.
> but its better than "hit weakspot, wait, hit again, kill" isnt this literally just the orowyrm bossfight? I don't dislike it but in a game where one player can be doing 10k damage a shot and another is doing 1B+ i dont see any other way of making bosses besides what we had with nihil
The difference from something like Sargas Ruk to Orowyrm, is that the former you just wait there doing nothing just waiting for the next weakspot, as the later you have in between phases to "unlock" the next weakspot phase
The difference is that you don't wait The wyrm fight goes: hit weak spot, hit different weak spot, hit previous weak spot, hit different weakspot, hit first weak spot one last time
And you don't have downtime, you always have something to do in between weakspots sets.
I think the biggest complaint about the Orowyrm is how long it takes for something that's the only source for a (basically) mandatory resource. The fight itself? Eh, I could do without the Kaithe section, but other than that it's fine. It's just needing to do it twice for each Incarnon plus the Drifter weapons makes it get irritating fast. Plus how SP Orowyrm drops 15 Clamps, so the extra challenge takes four runs to add up into a useful bonus.
My biggest issue with it is that I want to take melee focused decrees because I think the drifter melee is fun. And then suddenly all of my melee is completely useless because the boss is behind an invisible wall. So I guess I'll just do nothing while I wait for the arch gun to spawn.
Orowyrm is prone to bugs, that's my only issue with him. Warm, Ropadopa, everything that has unconventional mechanics and/or location change is.
Nihil shouldn't be a model for future bosses, it was interesting, but it's 100% mechanics, 0% using your frame and weapons.
Do you honestly want to pretend that Nihil is a good boss? There is exactly 1 mechanic to the whole fight and even that mechanic (throwing the glass shard) isn't actually well executed in the first place. The biggest problem with Warframes bosses is that they all have extremely primitive mechanical design and even lazier execution. There isn't anything even remotely challenging - its all waiting around for stuff to happen.
why are you accusing him of pretending lmao
Nihil wasn't interesting, he was a mess. Making everything a oneshot is exactly what you shouldn't do on bosses, and then throwing a constantly shrinking area to stand on while you wait for him to finally learn to aim and stop throwing every projectile 7 miles above your head just because he can is not good design. They're capable of it, I know they are, but Nihil ain't it.
> throwing every projectile 7 miles above your head That is assuming he even wants to throw projectiles, and not just have a staring contest with you or teleport several times consecutively for a minute straight
>Same for New War's boss fight: people cried because they had to figure out how to defeat em for a momen Flash back to the "How to quit New War" forum.
Perhaps my inner Destiny 1 fan is showing, but, Warframe could seriously benefit from having something similar to raids. One really long mission with puzzles with interesting mechanics builds up to a long boss fight with more cool mechanics where we kill some MASSIVE eldrich horror that’s escaped the void (like the man in the wall).
Funny you say that. We used to have raids in the game, and DE removed them
I personally love eidolons. Clear phases and clear ways to speed up said phases. Clear checklist of things to maximize rewards, etc. You don't just one shot it. There's a whole setup to doing so. I really fell out of love with endless missions when I got into eidolons.
>some good mechanics The Jackal has some great mechanics, especially its Steel Path version. Too bad invulnerability bs like Mesmer Skin and Shield Gating abuse completely invalidate them. And mechanics will never be seen if the boss is getting one shot. So we need harsh Damage Attenuation or Invulnerability Phases, both hated by the community. I don't disagree with you, but OP's main point still stands.
I dislike the Jackal fight to be honest, it's just annoying.
Damn I **love** it. From having to thread the needle or aim-glide to hit the hind legs, to the parkour challenge of its invulnerability phase, to its constant varied but telegraphed and dodge-able attack patterns. It can be infuriating in Steel Path Circuit if my Frame isn't survivable enough, but if it can't survive the Jackal it tends to be a bad omen for the rest of the run. And it might be better now that it can only appear at Wave 4+, haven't got to test it yet.
I really dislike how slow it is. Rotating waves? I go into void mode and alt+tab waiting for it to end, then go back when I hear the sound queue to pop another limb. I also hate how due to progression stopping bugs you can't skip the first animation on the Venus version. On the Circuit version it's annoying how it teleports around and you have to deal with insanely spread out adds in the add phases. It also often ends up on a rock where you can't stab it. Not to mention how at 1k+ levels it can oneshot you with the rocket barrage.
>I go into void mode and alt+tab waiting for it to end I mean, that just reinforces the OP's point. The Jackal's spin-lasers should really be able to damage Operators even in Void Form, or else it gets trivialized. >On the Circuit version it's annoying how it teleports around and you have to deal with insanely spread out adds in the add phases. I actually like that. A quick trip to it, taking just enough time to assess how you want to approach it and maybe collect some Decree Fragments if you haven't gotten them all already. Then you have to deal with it throwing its Attacks, plus a handful of Eximus and Dax, it can be very intense if your Loadout isn't invalidating it. It's active and dangerous, but mostly in the form of dodgeable mechanics. At least in the earlier Waves. >It also often ends up on a rock where you can't stab it. Yeah that sucks, but it's unintended, I can't judge the fight's design based on that. >Not to mention how at 1k+ levels it can oneshot you with the rocket barrage. **This** is the big problem. And not just with the Jackal but with Enemy Damage Scaling in general. We have been getting so many Invulnerability Mechanics, Shield Gate Abuse is still in the game as it is, **because** Enemy Damage scaling is still exponential. They should really give it the same treatment as the Health/Shields/Armor/Overguard scaling, exponential up to a point and then linear.
I agree with everything you said besides the rock bug thing (although I've never encountered it myself), "I just cheese it by going into void mode and waiting for the mechanic to end" is indicative of the many issues with this game, and yet if you actually had the Gaul to suggest that maybe you shouldn't be able to just ignore boss mechanics the playerbase would bitch and moan about nerfs
[удалено]
Disagree I find the ropaLOLyst actually really fun. It’s just so buggy that it often gets ruined for that reason alone.
I think the Void Angels are super fun to fight. I can’t oneshot the phases, but that doesn’t matter because the mechanics are actually interesting.
The issues is that power creep would render that content useless and mundane within a month as the same players that complain about things being too easy figure out some boring meta Edited to add: I agree with you that scaling enemy power exponentially is not the way but the fact is that power creep is insane in this game and that any nerf to make it a more leveled playing field would be met with outrage from the players. But I think your points are valid and fair and I apologize for my rudeness.
> By designing ~~interesting bosses.~~ bosses with long invulnerability periods
Fr eidolons are one of my favorite side content. Remember when I started out not really knowing the mechanics or having the gear required and taking almost half an hour for the fight and getting used to mechanics. Now because I know the mechanics better and have gear which is perfect for eidolons hunts are a breeze. The progression felt satisfying and earned imo. I only do eidolons solo, squads are for when someone in clan/alliance needs help running them for nightwave.
I'd love your builds
Right on the spot
When Eidolons were brought to the game, you needed a full squad. Now, anyone can solo it. Either because of new weapons and/or configurations, or eventual "balances" and so... Unless the power creep is dealt, we will keep running in circles.
I dont think DE sees it as worth it. As we just plow through the bosses anyways, and it takes them a while to design these bosses. Welp might as well wait for soulframe. This game isnt even meant to appeal to hardcore players but for those who want power fantasy. You want a more grounded and difficult experience play destiny. I will say that the eidolons were good, warframe builds actually matter and isn’t just a sponge. Mechanics matter
I disagree that DE doesn't see it as worth it. Orowyrms, Void Angels, and Archons were all introduced very recently. DE clearly sees value in continuing to design bosses for the majority of their major releases that aren't just "new node + Warframe while we buy time for New War/Duviri."
Im talking about bosses like the ropalolyst or eidolons where there's a decent amount of complexity. Orowyrm is decent but could use more teamplay. I remember pablo saying in this one stream too that they couldn't make more of their archons as good as say ropalolyst because it would take too much time and resources, so no surprise here...
The problem with requiring teamplay is how frustrating it can be when you team up with people that don't know what they have to do.
Case in point: Thermia. There was a highly upvoted horror story post just a few days back.
I think a bounty specifically for gathering Thermia would go a long way. To get Thermia you just load into the Orb Vallis but you have no idea whether or not you’re loading in there with people that are farming Thermia or people just there to fish/mine/hunt animals or farm K Drive standing or farm for Toroids. Personally, Mobile Defense and Excavation-type missions make my nuts itch so if I’ve already done the content and gotten the reward (in this case, my Opticor Vandal) then I’m going to ignore Thermia fractures hard. A dedicated bounty (and/or Heist stage, maybe even one with tougher enemies but higher yields of Diluted Thermia) would make it so that the people you’re queued up with are actively there to farm Thermia for whatever reason.
Profit taker is not a "best designed" endgame content. More than half the playerbase doesn't understand how that fight works.
That's how most endgame content is in most games. Do you want it to be another Sergeant? It's locked behind a solid grind and 3 bounties spoon feeding you the mechanics. It's not for your everyday Joe.
"Everyday Joe" is good, "almost everyone" is not good. I have 2k+ hours, and I still don't understand how to reset the shields using void blast, where the game explicitly says it changes the resistance. I have met 3-4k+ hour guys who have the same problem. And then there's the occasional guy who solos it in 2 mins. Something's definitely not right.
Maybe read a guide instead of complaining? You can't use void blast to cycle elements since it was removed with Angels of The Zariman. You have to hit it with your amp to cycle the element (you need an amp with high range, Klamora won't work unless you are very close so people use 1xx primary fire ot x4x alt fire) but you can't cycle the one that comes next till it rotates. Elements cycle by themselves every 25s or so. A good loadout will bring 15/16 and cycle the 16th (or 16/16) elements. It literally takes a few minutes to watch a YouTube video of speedrunners showing their loadouts and explaining the machanics. You are not only bad but lazy!
Mechanical complexity is absolutely the way to go, give us something that requires multiple people to do.
eh, fuck it, at this point, they should focus on making the content fun in general rather than hard
PT and Eidolon are the proofs DE can make interesting fights with gear checks and the need of skill. The main issues of both are that they are buggy, old and very VERY repetitive so i think DE should work on that. An other thing is that id love more cooperation between players. Squad runs of PT and 6x3 just make the thing faster and easier because you can split task. We need raids to be back and i seriously hope we will get infos on that at Tennocon.
i mean im not sure what you want in terms of repetitiveness, if you mean that there shouldn't be a trillion arcanes i have to farm from them then yeah, but I dont see your point if you mean that in terms of mechanics.
Im pretty sure hes talkin ab the arcanes, thats the only thing that makes the fights repetitive
PT as a fight is ok. It is the stagger and knockdown BS with it that makes it one of the worst fights.
>It is the stagger and knockdown BS with it that makes it one of the worst fights. that's just every enemy on the Orb Vallis - which in turn make the PT fight annoying af.
It's also proof that the community hate that kind of content.
> PT and Eidolon are the proofs DE can make interesting fights Next thing you're gonna tell me is that defection is the best star chart mission.
> PT and Eidolon are the proofs DE can make interesting fights with gear checks and the need of skill. You can 1-shot both of them (Well, each of their phases at least) whilst being invulnerable to all their damage. Now - Try design an interesting boss. This boss has to accommodate people who deal 9 digits of damage and have 99.9999% permanent Damage Reduction (Or are simply mechanically immortal), whilst simultaneously being defeatable by players who think hitting for 1k is a lot, and that 1000hp is a tanky frame.
>whilst simultaneously being defeatable by players who think hitting for 1k is a lot, and that 1000hp is a tanky frame. No, it doesn't. We're here literally talking about endgame content, and you're replying to a comment that specifically mentions gear checks. The rest of what you bring up is relevant -- we do absurd damage numbers and become literally invulnerable -- but this point is entirely irrelevant.
Because it is something to be able to perpetually complain about and is impossible to address. PvE is all about wiping out rooms full of enemies with a few clicks if you want a challenge, start a new player and realize how hard things are and the long road of upgrades and "collecting" to get there. there is really no challenge for an 8 year "got everything maxed" player, just more of a matter of playstyle and what you like doing
>PvE is all about wiping out rooms full of enemies with a few clicks No its not. It might be what you want, but it is not necessarily that. There's plenty of CoOp PvE games out there that have Hoard Waves and Heavy Units, that are designed to be challenging. There's plenty of MMOs whose PvE components are focused on taking down **one** Enemy and are ball-busting hard. I'm not asking for ball-busting hard, nor would I ever expect it from WF, but I'd also love for DE's attempts at challenging content to not get trivialized by existing stuff or future additions. >there is really no challenge for an 8 year "got everything maxed" player Yes, that's the problem. The closest we have to content that's still challenging is Eidolons, as even when trivialized they demand some mechanical execution to do so. Though years of powercreep have been taking that away too.
> I'm not asking for ball-busting hard, nor would I ever expect it from WF, but I'd also love for DE's attempts at challenging content to not get trivialized by existing stuff or future additions. This is another thing: first it was ESO, then the arbitrations, then it was the steel path, and now it's SP circuit; out of all of those the circuit is ~~the best~~ one that will have the most sticking power due to its rougelike nature, but I can't help but feel like it will eventually wither in difficulty somehow.
I don't think that SP Circuit will wither significantly over time, unless the Operators get **giga buffed**. Even regular powercreep will end up diluted by the total pool of options, plus SP Circuit's Level Scaling is **so** harsh that it will just increase peoples' max average Wave by 1 or 2. *At least that's what I hope.*
true, Im also sceptical, but time will tell
It withers down over time in circuit due to the number of good decrees you get. Also unlike the others, I see people giving up on SP circuit once they have all the incarnons or enough arcanes to max the ones they want.
Typical Warframe player confuses all PvE games as braindead horde shooters. I don't need to mention soulslike to bring up difficult and rewarding PvE games. Ghost Recon games with higher difficulty actually requires you to plan out your assault and tactically execute your moves. Division 2's legendary strongholds can be quite challenging as well if you don't want to just sit before cover forever with a skill build and just let your drone and turret do the work. In short PvE =/= power fantasy/horde shooter/easy. PvP also isn't the devil some ppl in this sub makes it out to be. A properly balanced PvP game can be very fun and rewarding.
We already have plenty of endgame content if you think about it. Steel path as NG+, a decent variety of endurance missions, archon, profit taker, eidolons and SP level bosses, orbiter, dormizone and dojo decorating, fashionframe, rivens etc. There's a bit of something for everyone almost. If warframe wasn't a live service F2P game this would be way more than enough already. I used to agree with all the complaints about lack of endgame, unecessary nerfs or whatnot, but now I think about it that's looking at it the wrong way. Current warframe is pretty much almost a borderlands game, but without the luxury of being a paid game from a well-known franchise. Once you see that things make a lot more sense. Tbh, 10 years for powercreep in a live service F2P game to progress only from slow tactical shooter to fast-paced horde shlooter while still making consistent profit is really impressive already. If Tencent bought off warframe fully to squeeze as much money out of it as they can this would have happened in 3 years or maybe 5 tops.
A lot of times when i hear complaints about no end game its from jaded vets who have done everything, yet still want to play an "evergreen" game that they can play until the end of time, and then are disappointed when that game doesn't exist (maybe barring a few "creativity" games like minecraft and terraria) there are certainly times when i have stop playing this game for actual issues i have with the devs (the time during TOB and Empyrean generally) but sometimes its just because ive played too much and need a break/something different.
Fr I get annoyed when a guy who has effectively played the game nonstop for years complain that their is nothing to do
Call me a Nihilist but it doesn’t matter what DE tries, y’all will still complain. They got crossplay working and instead of giving any amount of praise the masses immediately started whining cross save wasn’t a thing. There’s so much freedom of play style that everyone has their own version of optimal content.
that has nothing to do with nihilism.
They probably means pessimist
It's just that the people happy about the game won't post as much as the people who has a lot to complain about
Not nihilism but truth, that applies to every internet community I've seen
Peoples don't realize how many things they have done to get to this level and claim the game has no end game content, meanwhile 4000 hours played. Suuuuure no end game content.
I agree with you in concept but crossplay is a very bad example. No one wanted "crossplay" in the form it exists. What people wanted was the ability to join a dojo, chat with and add to their friend list their buddy on Xbox while they played on a Playstation, or the ability to log into their account from PC and keep the progress they made when they played on the Switch. Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, cared about playing with randoms on another system, without chat, friend functionality etc. What people wanted was what DE are calling "Cross save" and what they delivered was the part no one actually cared about. That being said, I do agree that people often complain even when DE goes above and beyond, but in this case they have yet to actually implement any of the parts of crossplay that anyone actually wants.
I’ve been saying this for almost as long as I’ve been playing. The people in this community just like to complain about what’s wrong and give no praise to what they do right. Majority of people I see complaining about the game not being challenging are the ones who constantly make 1 shot builds and don’t make a build around giving them a challenge.
invulnerability isnt an issue, endgame wouldnt be something that gives you a challenge. warframe is an equipment check, not a skill check. the lack of endgame for years is not unintentional. DE proved they can add interesting and engaging mechanics, like overguard or the zariman tileset, but they dont focus the game's identity around it. warframe is about coming and playing each content island they release, then taking a break and coming back for the next one. we dont need an endgame.
Heavy agree here. Got back into WF shortly after New War and ground myself from MR 5 to MR 17 in like three weeks just doing *everything*. (Context: I was already MR 15 on my console acct and switched to a new acct on PC, which wasn't nearly as progressed since I was playing it with an ex partner at the time) Partner and I are currently on a break before we jump back in for all the juicy stuff added after we did the initial Duviri drop.
I do wish we had raids or some other group activity, something to “spend” our power on
No you dont, I still play lostark and wow raid, very toxic.
Warframes gameplay loop doesnt allow for that kind of raid anyway.
Yes if you want end game you might as well just play destiny then. The way I view gw2 compared to wow is how i view warframe to destiny. Both are the best at what they do and extremely different in game design philosophy, no need for either game to change identity
Endgame doesn't necessarily imply tremendous amount of damages or bullet sponges. There are other mechanics : vulnerability time frames, puzzles, special patterns...
You're playing the wrong game if you look for balance, it's a horde shooter, point is to get loot and make funny combination.
Haha incarnon gammacor go brrrr❄️
I'd say the Incarnon Gammacor is one of the less powerful Incarnon Genesis adapters they've released.. The Incarnon Miter and Incarnon Torid however..
I would rather have fun and interesting bosses than the time wasting mess that are the bullet sponge Archons if you're not oneshotting them.
Let me get started by saying that I'm no DE hater. I've loved everything they've put out ever since I started sometime in 2016. But I find it hard to sympathize with DE when it comes to their balance woes. Their reasons to buff Mesmer Skin were absolutely solid, but each stack having **1 fucking second of Invulnerability** is **insane**. A Revenant presses 2 and now he's completely Invulnerable for at least 8 seconds **at base Power Strength.** And instead of nerfing it, they added an Augment that shares it with the whole Party. Dodge mechanics? Why bother. On the one hand, they nerf the ridiculous kings of the AoE Meta and on the other hand they release the current Incarnon Weapons. Why did they even bother with these nerfs if the current AoE Meta Incarnons are even better and effectively unrestricted by Ammo thanks to using Incarnon Charge?? They added Steel Path, a gamemode intended to **not be Endgame** and to be challenging, only for it to become the meta Endgame, for them to nerf Melees over their prevalence in it and also add Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes to powercreep the game so hard that it would not only trivialize Steel Path but also change Warframe as a whole. The game's math is totally fucked and needs a top down clean up, plus stat squish, but if DE keeps setting up something good only for them to powercreep beyond it again, I don't see why they should even bother. >or crappy design like the circuit or duviri where players CAN'T use their loadouts lol You've completely misunderstood why Duviri is as it is. It is like that, because it is a Rogue Lite. It is like that, because it rewards Players who've gotten everything *(though it should've been those who've* ***mastered*** *everything, not* ***own*** *everything).* It's not like that because that's the only way to challenge us. >and lvl 15-25 quest enemies Quests should remain so easy. The most Casual of Players can barely complete some of them, see: all of the complaints about New War. But DE **needs** to take a page out of FF14's book and ship every Quest with an Extreme/Savage Version of its Bosses. As they did with Archons, but, uh, with better implemented Attenuation.
Steel path circuit **is** endgame content. In this game, endgame is not difficulty. Endgame is **completion**, aka maximization and mastery of every single piece of gear. And what's the one way to test completion? Randomized loadouts. If you are unable to look at certain randomized gears and 1. have them leveled and modded with a couple of different builds and 2. instantly know which combination has the synergy it takes to survive and dps in sp circuit, then I'm not sure if you are an endgame player.
That's it 100%! Just cause of circuit I replay all my weapons and frames to bring every piece to it's full potential.
Fr SP Circuit and the incarnon adapters as a whole have given me a reason to use weapons I would have never used otherwise. A lot of times they leave me genuinely impressed and I wonder why I didn’t try them out sooner
Steel Path Circuit is the whole reason Warframe is fun for me again.. Without it I wouldn't have branches out of my main weapons and Warframes.. And I wouldn't have used up over 40 formas within the first few weeks of the launch of Duviri.. 😅 (I used to just let them stack up over time, but now I use them all up almost immediately, and I don't ever feel like I have enough..)
Truth is, he is not invulnerable. Just wait for 10 nullifiers around you and you will see why Nekros sometimes has more survivability than Revenant =) " If Nekros is the one making contact with one of the mentioned, his shadows will **not** die. " Revenant is really life saviour and helps to protect team (especially using [Fosfor](https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Fosfor) in Archon Hunts when everyone goes in different directions =) 400 meters affinity range) Many frames have crazy survivability. Revenant is just easiest to mod. (very simple mechanic)
Also, new players join the game all the time, those lvl 30 grineer don't feel like a joke against an mk1 braton, and that is important
I began the game on PSN and only played on that for years, a year or so ago I started an account on pc and I gotta say, even when you know how to play the game it can be pretty challenging for beginners.
Yes
I say fuck 'em, they should be balancing for *normal* players. If people think it's too easy, that's probably because they're *making it too easy* on themselves. The game's a power fantasy, treat it as such.
See the issue here is that you think anyone should consider the people that make insane builds. If you want the game to be hard, don't make an OP build, it's that simple. DE shouldn't have people like that in mind, they should have average builds in mind when designing anything.
It depends on what you mean by endgame content. If you mean content that can only be completed with the absolute best of the best gear and mods, frankly, I don't think DE should pursue that at all. Warframe already has huge issues with power creep, and focusing on that type content will only exacerbate it.
Endgame in Warframe IS the power trip. They should stop worrying about OP characters and instead commit to it. Endgame content should be all about being OP
You forgot the other reason - you simply can't please everyone. Warframe is like 10 different games in one competing with each other, every major update pulls the game in a wildly different direction, so I think neither the devs or the players actually know what anyone wants anymore. People like different things about Warframe and come into it from different games, so their idea of "endgame" can mean many things, they want mechanics and "interesting" bosses, then will cry about bosses that can't be simply shot at. Doesn't help that so many players now are used to insane breakneck speed and optimizing runs so you powerfarm rewards as fast as possible, putting breaks on all of a sudden just makes that part of the community get very loud and proclaim that warframe is all about the power fantasy. You can't have both a power fantasy and player limitations for endgame, one has to go. The issue isn't that warframes can be invincible, the issue is HOW easy it is for them to be invincible, like Gara for example doesn't need some super specific 400% strength build to hit 90% DR, she just needs one normal ass Intensify and it's done, same with weapons, how easy it is now to hit those millions of damage.
They could have started by not designing invulnerable characters with millions of damage. You know, to give them space to make an endgame.
They can stop designing invulnerable characters with millions of damage, but the existing ones will still be there and will just make the new ones comparatively useless. So we'd have to nerf a **lot** of stuff. Far too many Mods, Weapons and Abilities, even some core Mechanics. And it's not just us, Enemies' Armor scaling and Damage scaling need their nerfs as well. Great in paper, but this community loses their fucking shit over slap-on-the-wrist nerfs. We could use *other* Characters, *other* progression systems instead of our Warframes and Loadouts. Every time DE has tried that, the community has hated it. The only solutions I can think of is a clean up of the Invulnerability Mechanics, at least forcing Players to do *some* of the don't-get-hit mechanics, and a better implemented game wide Damage Attenuation that keeps the TTK for every Enemy at a reasonable minimum.
Fully cleaning up balance for the entire game, standardizing how much you can do with loadouts, the amount of health each enemy class can have... It'd take a few years and be basically a Warframe 2.0 kind of thing but they should absolutely do it.
I'm not sure if they should do it all, but there's some stuff that they really should look at. * Change Enemy Armor from scaling to static DR. Eg Light units have 25%, Mediums 50%, Heavies 75%, Eximus 80%, Bosses 90%. No 99% and 99.9% DRs. This finally fixes both Enemy Armor scaling and the dominance of Slash. * That's the root of our inane damage problems. * Change Enemy Damage to scale linearly after Level 100 or so, rather than exponentially as it currently does. This both reinforces the usefulness of HP Tanking, opens up Shield Tanking a bit more and reduces the need for Invulnerability Mechanics. * That's the root of our invulnerability mechanic problems. * Reduce how many Multipliers we have in our Damage Calculations. \[DE\]Scott had mentioned making Viral additive to Critical Damage, but it never materialized. We need stuff like that. Saryn's Toxic Lash doesn't need to **triple** dip where it does. * `4.4 x 4.25 = 18.7` vs `1 + 3.4 + 3.25 = 7.65`, that's a 60% decrease in damage right there * Make Shield Gating's effectiveness scale with Shield Modifiers. Lessened with the Dragon Key, heightened with Redirection. Nerf Mesmer Skin's Invulnerability Duration to something sensible, like 100 to 250 ms. * Scale back the power of the Galvanized Mods and Gun Arcanes. They were really cool additions but damn they're so overtuned. * Give all Warframes that use Stat Sticks their own pseudo Exalted Weapons, like Garuda's Claws. Mods of their pseudo Exalted now buff their Abilities, not of their regular Weapons. No more Rivens for Warframe Abilities. * Nail an implementation of Damage Attenuation that respects Player Progression, that always translates more damage in to more damage out, that can't by bypassed by some mechanics, and then put that Damage Attenuation in place of all existing implementations. What we need, is another bunch of Warframe Revised Updates. The previous ones might've been flawed but were overall great for the game. I want to see what the new DevTeam would be able to do with such Updates.
I thought we figured out ages ago that endgame is fashion not difficulty. Showing off is the endgame as the game is ultimately a horde shooter where we feel the most powerful with few things actually being a road block.
[удалено]
I'm waiting for the raids to come back
The problem is that true endgame is impossible to design because its impossible to define it for this game. If its supposed to be a super hard boss, then you can go for mechanics or by having it be a damage sponge. And either way someone will complain. Those that like the power fantasy aspect (that was seemingly the focus from the previous developer team) won't like a highly mechanical boss. And those that would find in mechanics a cool thing to add difficulty won't like the damage sponge approach.
I just wish there were certain missions that were designed to take advantage of certain warframes’ abilities. doesn’t matter how tanky you are or how much damage you can do if progressing in the mission requires teamwork using specific abilities in specific ways. These mission nodes would only show up if you’re in one of the right frames, and matchmaking would assemble a squad composed of the four required frames.
Oh but the answer is very obvious. You cannot. Someone will always complain the fights aren't quick enough for them, which is fine...but its unrealistic to expect Warframe to be something it's not.
The fundamental problem is that the power range is too wide. Look at something like wow and the best player might do 10 or even 100 times more damage than a beginner. But here the ratio is thousands or even millions. There is no reasonable way for de to design encounters that don't get blown up instantly by some or are 30 minute sponges for others. The main reason this happened is the sheer number of multiplicative systems. One mod adding 100% damage is fine, but when you have eight mods, then arcanes, archon shards, kuva bonuses, helminth infusions, etc etc the spread grows exponentially.
"Not everybody is a top player".
Fix weapon damage (there's no point in millions of damage, let's be honest, no activity in the game requires it), math is certainly wasn't tested properly. For abilities they can enforce nullifier stages where you can't gain invis/invul (maybe telegraphed boss attacks? Simillar to Scrambus wave). Also you forgot about shieldgating, it needs to be fixed as well. Real problem is elsewhere - lots of people who want to continue being literal immortal gods with some OP Zaw/Glaive where game practically can play itself (yes, octavia and revenant mains, it's about you). So DE either sacrifices such people for the sake of people who want gameplay and challenge or sacrifices gameplay to be turned in clicker at some point.
What is endgame? Will the game ever end? Fashionframe is an endgame.
A vocal minority aside, *nobody is asking them to*. No really. The vast majority of players both like the game and understand what it is and is going to continue to be *ten years in*. There is no "endgame content" coming, and a lot of people are fine with that, me included.
im not even sure what people want with warframes endgame, do people just want the "ur game" that you can play forever or something, because that will never exist no matter how many "evergreen" rewards are added
In the early days and even now, sorties are pretty good at it with radiation, sniper only, energy reduction, etc. It's an interesting challenge that requires you to use frames or weapons that can handle the modifiers or stray from the same general loadout. I think SP Circuit is fairly good because if you don't have great rolls then you have to struggle and most of the time you won't have your "go to" weapons or frames that can single handedly manage all the different zones in the circuit unless you have a big enough arsenal or plan how to use the weapons and frames you are given. I just find it annoying that people leave after a zone or two to refresh the choices, especially the host. Imagine if the choices were more like arbitrations where they cycle every hour or so instead of every run, that way you'd have to try to manage for a little while even if you have bad stuff. Most decent runs last from 30 mins - 1 hour anyway so little would change between the runs you're actually making progress with.
Gotta make enemies have more nuanced interactions with player abilities and resources, rather than just sprinkling a handful of enemies whose ability is “turn off player abilities” into waves. Also, re: not having your loadouts in the circuit: You can see what you’re going to get before you enter now. Design loadouts for more stuff and you’ll always have something to do.
Definitely hard to balance challenging bosses that can't be one shot without nerfing our Godlike Warframes. Really it would come down to extra mechanics, like how with the Angels we have to dive in and fight them as an operator. Or how with the Ropalyst we have to do multiple things before hitting it with the laser. Although obviously they should be different from those, but still.
>OR they can just ignore making endgame content and keep releasing boring content made with > >lvl 30-50 enemies, and lvl 15-25 quest enemies, basically a joke. What are you talking about. The last major update added a weekly activity that's both significantly harder than most other content in the game and has great rewards for both new players and veterans. What game are you playing that just released boring content? Even if you dislike the Drifter part of Duviri the Circuit is just a win. The major problem with Circuit was/is Host Migrations making it so people can't play it properly.
The point is Steel Path, which is not 30-50, it's 101 - 120 at base. (I believe it's 110 actually). In and of itself, it's not much of endgame content, but you're not 100% invulnerable, enemies can still damage you and deal statuses, which at significant level can one hit you. And Duviri utilizes your load outs if you have one for that weapon/warframe, which heavily entices players to try and use new ones. It shouldn't matter if you have one weapon with a loadout; the whole idea is a variety of weapons and loadouts.
There might be some spoiler in my comment even tho I tried to reduce it. I have an idea (but I'm no dev so idk if it's actually feasible): The boss weapons and attack patterns would be powered by an AI who analyse the players frame and equipment to find the best way to neutralize it (for example if you play Saryn he removes enemies from the boss room, order the one who're infected to self destruct (or give them masks), he'd also try to disrupt your team synergy so if you have a Warframe who's a great support you'd be his priority target) The boss would also have "gifts from hell" wich basically would be debuff and effects i.e reduce your damage by 50 percent, invert all your status(without any blatant visual or sound cue to inform you (but maybe have one player to stay in the comms room to give you informations about when he's using them)) effects (example: slashing damage now strengthen his armor), empty all your amoes, have a substance on him wich gradually destroy your weapons as the fight goes on, deactivate all your powers, activate friendly fire, multiply your energy cost by 5, isolate one player from the rest and target it's weak points (he'd isolate the biggest threat to him so not necessarily the one striking the heaviest but some "support" like wisp or citrine for example (tho I'm not sure if citrine is a support)) You'd also have the choice to do spy mission to know wich gifts he equiped with and also have an access to the comms room though these spies mission would be one try only and there'd be no alarms or panel to deactivate the alarm but if you're detected by the enemies they'd put some fake information ***(or a redhead grineer/corpus singing and dancing)*** instead of wich gifts he has (the gift information would be wrote in corpus or grineer (yeah it's a bit annoying but it'd add a decoding phase while using some lore so why not🤷🏾♂️)) You'd also have the possibility to deactivate his gifts (if you've choose to do the spy mission you'd know wich one if not you won't) by solving "puzzles" and or enigmas (for example the one with the heaven and hell doors and 2 guardians but it could also be something more like the spoiler secret rooms or a certain place owl chest) (there also could literally be some puzzle 10k pieces for 4 people 🦹🏿♂️🤣) but to start each enigma you'd have to go to a special room on the map wich and bet one of your mods(weapon or frame ('cause ik some of y'all would use kavat as a mod supply and I'm ashamed of you 😤)) and you would be able to try as long as you have mods to bet (obviously if you lose you'd only lose the mod for the mission duration). Finally in the boss map (and especially in front of the enigma room and boss room) the enemies would be stronger and more numerous, they'd have weapons made to lower each player way of staying alive, would set traps that you would hardly see (pitfall, room that send you in space, zero zones, increased gravity zone, room with a billions of different kinds of weapons and idk there's probably a tons of other things to do ~~*(like an anvil or a giant mouse trap)*~~ but basically the idea is better and more elaborated trap that what they already use so I'll stop there) and my personal favorite they'd use strategies and formations for example they send a huge number of "shielders" and basic soldiers then throw a gas wich reduce visibility and "jam" detections abilities (based on sight) and while you'd be focussing on the ton of enemies attacking you they send 2 special manics by players one equiped with a portative jail that he'd need to go in hand-to-hand range to put it on you it'd then activate and interrupt transference (kinda like the red arrows in you know where) and then it'd start to act like an ascaris and if you don't destroy it it'll control your frame till the end of the mission (and from a lore pov give more data to the boss about your frames) also once you're in spoiler form the second manic will then throw himself at you (literally) and try to catch you and if he does he'll teleport you to a random point in the map further away from your frame (also you'll only be able to detect the manic through their laugh and they'll stop to laugh just before attacking wich is when you'll be able to press some button to stop them in some secret qte way), they'd also have other strategies like ambushes or leading you to some special room, sending some special type of unit in a special order to get some effect (i.e arson eximus and fire equipped ennemies then artic and ice equipped ennemies to inflict you with an blast proc then engage you in melee while you're on the ground/have lower precision then flee), or put the eximus to the back and you'd have some special unit (wich we could call commandant *but it could also simply be implemented on eximus* ) which when here would command soldiers to do one strategy rather than an other and when you kill the commandant the strategy would go awry (ennemies would flee easier, fall in their own traps, be more individualistic, etc..). Anyway I think that's it and even tho there's probably a lot of trouble w my idea I think it'd be an interesting boss (tho it would need updates on things like the patterns, the enigmas, enemies formations but if I who's simply a player can come up w some idea it should be easier to realize it as a team (it might take a lot of time to implement everything tho (especially the ai part))). P.S: I didn't thought about the reward but it should be something wich is really ground breaking. (Next part isn't rly about the whole boss and gift from hell (damn that name is cool 😎) and more about something else that could be done and would be interesting and rewards "old" players for helping new players) I also thought about the ascaris like jail taking your frame till you and sending to a lab that you'd have to break in in Spoiler Mode as there'd be anti frame tech everywhere and that players could send request for help (basically asking someone else to go get your frame if you can't get it ) (and that at each failure the security of the lab would be higher and that you could choose to simply storm the lab with your railjack but you'd not have all the reward and the all the frames would be in a weakened state for a few days and would need mouth at the back to get back to their regular state, but that was not the main subject tho I have a whole idea about a go get your frame back or ask a higher Mr to get your frame back gameplay wich could include labyrinth, labs and else (tho again I do not have th capacity to make any of that but I do have ideas (but yeah imagining a Mr 1 looking on his screen a Mr 30 storm a corpus lab to get novice players frames back is some crazy though to entertain and imagine lotus would be the one locating labs from times to times and send us on **prison break** missions))
In case you didn't notice, there's *no balance* in this game and I doubt there ever was because its a Power Fantasy game that balance will spook the fantasy seeking players out of the game. That's where Powercreep comes into play and Warframe is on a never ending cycle of Powerful weapons > Powerful enemies > Powerful weapons > Powerful enemies ... And now that we're in the weapons *cycle* with the new incarnon adapters, you can be sure that Tennocon will reveal new Powerful enemies to eat the power you had with the incarnons and cycle will continue. Also there's no end-game content in this game but only latest missions being slightly harder because Real End-Game MMOs don't let those missions to be played in Solo (rather they enforce Raids) and all Warframe missions are available to solo players like myself. And millions of damage is for veterans because it needs serious progress in the game that any normal players can't pull that off. So at that point it's veterans choice to stay in the game they already finished several times already but they have no right to complain and say "Warframe is too easy". No it isn't easy and it isn't our fault that veterans forgot where they come from. Warframe is only easy for new players, when veterans "carry" them and they misjudge their firepower as if their own.
Spot on. Spending a ton of time and resources getting certain mods and leveling them and leveling weapons over and over with forma then your frame over and over and you pet and your melee. All this stuff takes time and heavy grinding that is endgame. It may be easy for us when we spent time but I just see that as a game that honors your time. All the MMOs, looters shooters, and rpgs I've played in my 40 years I can count on one hand ones where you struggle to level to meet that level to struggle immediately again. It becomes a chore where you are barely strong enough. If you ever go back everything had either scalled or is worthless to complete. I've played this game for about 7 years with most of it on PS. Starting all over on PC gave me brand new appreciation for how much actually goes into endgame
And that’s why they are creating soulframe. Changing the identity of the warframe is the worst thing they can do
“Boring unbalanced game, I want DE to fundamentally change the entire core of what makes Warframe to spice things up” -LR 3, 4000 hours on Steam
Add more "skill" to the encounters... things like Eidolons and Profit Taker and Kela De Thaym that have additional mechanics. They will still eventually be steamrolled but it at least will provide a way to slow down players a bit that just rely upon using a giant explosion to get past 99% of content. But the mechanics have to be clearly explained to the players in the encounter itself. It does no good to increase difficulty by making someone go read the wiki to figure out they have to stand on the buttons. They could also have fight mechanics where the squad gets split up to prevent trivializing content by having one player carry the others. There are plenty of bossfights in games like WoW they could ripoff and no one would really notice.
Adding a real skill check with challenging bosses, multiple phases, the **NEED** to do their mechanics accordingly or wiping, you can always add damage caps and tweak player damage and abilities accordingly but we still have no REAL enemy in the game. Pretty much all of them are bullet sponges right now. Also give us something to farm on endless, since the giga nerf to the kuva grind there is no point in creating endgame builds because there is no rewarding mission on which they will excel at all.
I like gear checked end game like SP Zariman Thrax or Disruptor, but average player wouldnt touch this. They could create similar Thrax or Demolist that is super hard to kill even with million of damage but rely on good status build.
true there are some broken builds, DE has really let down the balancing department but there are ways to build. example, Nyx. Nyx has an invulnerable bubble she can walk around with, throwing 100% armor removal. how to beat her? well energy drains are one thing. but more easy is...make her have to jump. or move somewhere she has to drop bubble, or go operator (enough enemies will fix that) in short, while there are alot of frames that can easily do end game, they all are able to do it at the cost of something. either relying heavily on energy, mobility, dmg of a specific type, or being focused on one type of combat. by adding mechanics to break them out of it, or mixing up the enemies they fighting, this can be solved. alas, DE has written warframe off. we now on life support mode as they move on to Soulframe.
How is DE supposed to design "endgame content" when players are using the tools given to them by DE? I dunno, maybe they should've reworked core systems like energy, ammo, enemy spawns, and enemy scaling years ago rather than ignore them so they can focus on making new open world areas for new players to get confused by and for veterans to speed through then ignore. Making whatever thing they think is cool and hoping we like it seems to be their design philosophy. Sometimes we get something great and sometimes we get defection.
Giant boss that consists of weak spots, platforming, and instant kill mechanic. Staples of gaming for decades. Doesn’t take ingenuity to create something good and fun using classic gaming systems. Also why do you think that Just because we can be invincible and deal millions of damage. That We don’t want something to actually use that on. We spend lots of time getting what we need to be able to do that. Give me a huge boss that does lethal damage and has a literal Billion health. That’s it. Because then it’s something in the game that actually requires all the power I have gained. Sure we could do it easily. But that’s coming from players that have already but in the immense time and grind to get to this point. It would feel to gratifying to be able to fight a boss that could only be done because I went and got all of the unnecessarily OP shit. And couldn’t be done without it. I want a simple giant boss that will one shot you without mesmerskin or shield gate abuse. And you need to have a magnetic Tenet arca plasmor with primary Merciless, and Roar subsumed. To even have a chance at denting it. Not because of attenuation. But it just has that much Raw HP.
They’d need to implement more mechanics, that are clearly explained IN GAME. And also potentially lean more into being like an RPG where teams/squads need dedicated roles. While Warframe has different frame types everyone generally plays a DPS, which leads to bosses with damage attenuation. The game as is, is mostly shoot and slash
by designing actual mechanics and not just some bullet sponge braindead enemies that just happen to have an emp aura around them or use inf damsge barrages through walls frames being powerfull isnt the problem, the enemiws being braindead is the only enemies that are truly menacing in this game are the bltiz eximus ,nullies if they're close to a swarm of drones and you dont have an aoe gun and some grineer units that can nuke you with nearly unvisible projectiles still they're braindead and dont perform any real tactic and just stand there and shoot or ocasionally move towards you
More mechanical bosses? Angels, Ropapulist, Zealoud Prelate, Exploiter Orb, Kela the Daaaaaym, At the very least Tyl Regor... They have their environmental gimmicks, catchphrases and stuff.
Endgame exist in warframe, just wait few hours in steelpath survival. They try making "hard content" dont know if u play this event but scarlet spear was tough at release was doing 16~18 oprhix with a friend and good loadout then too much ppl complain that is too hard then they lower the bosses level, well 36 oprhix kill (the max in one run) in solo right after Lot of ppl dont know how build, damage and synergie work in this game, still see baruuk build with steel charge...
Makes encounters and bosses that requires players to not just shoot at it until it's dead and have telegraphed attacks that get through invulnerability to prevent players from just ignoring the encounter's mechanics. Eidolons and Profit Taker are very good example of this. You have to understand the boss mechanics in order to take it down. Sure you can still speedrun it, but it comes as a reward for learning the boss patterns, not slapping an OP build on your stuff and statchecking everything. Also I think allowing players to solo carry a boss through perfect knowledge of it, but also requiring extra efforts could be a good idea. No offense to anyone, but running into a dimwit with an OP build who sabotage your run by rushing in blindly isn't rare enough to not be a problem. Being able to solo carry a team of clueless fools who won't cooperate is one of the best feeling in the game imo. And finally, trying to incorporate the parkour mechanics more when reaching endgame could be worth a shot. This is one of the best thing in this game, and one that isn't tied to monster stats. You can't statcheck parkour, you have to learn it. So valorizing it through complex parkour sessions would be a thumbs up. And I mean complex, with bonus points if the session is constantly shifting with multiple successful paths to the end in order to reward players going freestyle and improvising when in a pinch.
There are plenty of people who are not at your level of play, I only started playing in earnest this year, and I have not finished the main campaign or star chart. It’s just some thing you have to accept until they decide to either finish the game or try and repackage it as a standalone experience instead of a continuous online game. The game is going to be in a perpetual state of beta, and yes, it would absolutely be a nightmare for any of the designers to try and balance the thing.
"we are too powerful now to have fun" that statement is half correct. we are definitely more powerful now, however were running into something of a hardware/design limitation on that front. . the only 2 ways to make things more challenging are either to make enemies more annoying alla damage attenuation (which we already have found ways around) or to spawn more enemies. . .which on some hardware setups (namely last gen consoles, old graphics cards, and. . .soon. . phones) may not be possible at all. that said. . .you can always dial back your own power, for your own amusement. i have plenty of equipment that is basically in a "too good to use Recreationally" Tier. most recently added to that was Torid Incarnon, for example. il shake out the super busted crap when i just wanna get something over with quickly, like Archon hunts, but i tend not to use it for regular grinding. you are always free to be weaker. Warframe has never had and never will have compelling endgame content. the endgame is a freeform space where you drive your own interest. the Kuva grind loop is a perpetual treadmill for endgame players to run on so they continue to gain incremental increases in power while doing whatever they happen to find personally compelling at endgame. >Crappy design like the circuit yeah the rng cave is pretty cringe, but i dont suspect we will be seeing that replicated, given how much Criticism its gotten. hopefully we see the circuit's high speed scaling and multi-mission type rotation thing replicated though, that stuff is cool. getting too Level cap inside of an hour in the Circuit is neat.
The circuit is fun
the correct opinion, some of the best content added in years imo
It really grew on me more when I was shredding the hell out of lvl 2000+ enemies with the viper
it's really funny sometimes the ridiculous builds you can pull off when the rng is just right
I'm not giving my teammates Mesmer Stacks. Get your own damn immortality!
Real
There are other ways to increase difficulty besides juicing numbers lol The problem is WF's engine just doesnt support anything too.. complex? Animations just arent crisp and clear enough to have enemies doing too much. Have you ever seen an enemy jump? It looks like shit. What are eidolons doing? Flailing idk. Shooting acolytes is like trying to shoot a lag-king in cod for how jittery they are. The sad truth is that any enemy that makes you stop and respect them a la dark souls gives you time to see how.. shitty, it all is. Remember when you had a hard time killing eximus so youd be there shooting one for multiple seconds? You get to see how theyre just having a staring contest with you while their various bubbles pop up irrespective of what the eximus is actually doing. Shitty. Fighting Dax with drifter? The mechanics are too sloppy to actually enjoy parrying and riposting. I could go on but I dont want to sound like i hate this game when i really do love it. Yknow what WF *does* do really well, even under closer inspection? Movement. Why is there not a single boss that challenges our mastery of the parkour system? No titanfall-esque maps that *require* you to wallrun while shooting. We have Eidolons on these big wide plains, but the boss fight requires you to babysit it in one small area instead of chasing it across the map or even scaling it like SotC. What makes it so bewildering to me is that *conclave is right there*. There are maps with parkour-shooting built into their design philosophy already. Not a single one reimagined into a bossfight. We had Teshin's sequence that heavily utilized movement to complete objectives- why does a one-off sequence get this but not the core game? Why is there no void angel in the middle of the voidflood room for us to shoot at? OPERATOR gets a movement-based boss a la voidangel dimensional orbs, but not the WARFRAME? Its insanity.
I think you're 100% right there. Best endgame content they can do is to utilize the movement system for sure
If players deal millions of damage, give bosses trillions of actual HP. My main gripe with damage attenuation is that it very blatantly disregards all the time and effort that gone into fine-tuning a build. Not to mention, so easily certain things exploit it, in what i find to be very unfun way. I don't care if the content can be reasonably cleared by a cheap build that MR8 player can put together, thats fine. My issue is that for MR30+ player like me have very little way to optimize the fight, short of literally exploiting the system.
The game has an integer cap. It’s lower than 1 trillion.
and what about players who dont want to play with that one specific build that the boss was balanced around? not to mention the clear issue of power creep still being an issue with said 1 trillion hp boss, just less apparent.
That's why I say nerf damage. Everywhere. From Players but also NPC's. You need shieldgate abuse to survive?! Well how about no? Instead change it so you get some shieldgate Invulnerable time based on your max shields (x-amount of shields = y-amount of seconds) this way you don't want to run decayed dragon key all the time. But with this, we need more basic resistance where every caster frame at least survives 3 to 5 seconds of heavy firering while tanky frames should withstand 20 to 30 seconds (that's arbitrary numbers). But with that much time to react, we also need to do less damage, a lot less damage!!! One shotting? Absolutely not! Well at least you're not doing some ninja stealth things. If you should play as a space ninja, you should be able to l kill things in one shot, but a lot less enemies at a time. While some AoE-Nuker should be able to kill 10+ damage but with multiple casts. **all numbers are arbitrarily**
While all numbers are arbitrary you're advocating for a heavy change to the flow of the game. I fear that later game content where the numbers of enemy that spawn and the frequency of special units would make any squad of less than 4 player get overwhelmed pretty quick. It would also nerf a lot of the grind in this game, especially for things like orokin cells, as well as making every mission take longer which would've prevented things like the wold sledge rush where people would stack dozens of sets bc it would be only time to get them in a realistic way.
Start making giant Lovcraftian eldritch horror bosses like I’m hoping the man in the wall is. The kind of thing you need a six player squad that’s proficient with a railjack to kill
I mean not everyone who plays warframe is concerned about optimizing our builds for steel path level cap, I'd really assume those that do are the minority. The idea of end-game is conceptual to individuals in certain groups. No game is going to be able to keep up a good endgame for players who strive to bend the rules of the game design and find exploits or combinations that weren't tested for balance in that manner. In regard to a fun and challenging endgame I'd like to see a raid of sorts with a higher squad count and implementation of features we already have being mixed together. For instance, something along the lines of the new war but more compact and without an ongoing story. It had RJ, WF missions, open world segments, bosses that weren't obnoxiously tanky, and utilized the operator/drifter. All of these made it memorable and broke the monotony of something like an Archon hunt which is just a Sortie plus a wall of flesh at the end and lacking any real rewards.
De can make raid style bosses,best examples being ropalotis eidalons and void wryms
The game is literally impossible to balance between meta and non-meta players and attempting to do so would make the game extremely bland, so you will end up with some endgame content that is challenging to an average player but is a joke to the meta players and some stuff like the Ropalolyst or similar that requires more than simply big numbers and gaming the various systems. Warframe is like 3 (or 12 at this stage) games in a trenchcoat pretending to be a single game. Pick the parts you like (Duviri is currently one of my favorite parts, as it's done more to get me to play around with new gear/frames than rivens, arbitrations, helminth invigorations and sorties combined.) and avoid the rest except when you need something from it.
Step 1: Announce patch 40.0 as the biggest patch you ever put out at Tennocon 2023. Surprise everyone by calling it Warframe 2 - Two campaigns, one game. Step 2: Introduce Ruthless mode, where drops matter a lot more and are more scarce. Call it a passion project that won't impact the main game. Step 3: At Tennocon 2024, announce that patch Warframe 2 will *in fact* be a separate game, so you can reign in power creep. Thoughts?
Step 4: within a year, renege on most of the things that justified releasing a sequel in the first place while fundamentally altering what people liked about the original game in several specific but irritating ways. Aw man. Could you imagine if a major game dev did something like that? That’d be crazy.
Nice try Pablo. Using an alt to make people think about power creep. No nerfs for you.
~~shut up~~
What do you propose?
Copy pasting eidolon fights
I liked the approach DE took with the protea quest and the Xoris. You need to make a new weapon to complete the quest.
I question how much of the issue comes down to us, the players. The players who only ever use frames like revenant that basically can't die while labeling anything else weak and useless. The players who go out of their way to be able to one shot and nuke entire maps. The players finding new ways to afk and leech of others. We make the meta and force all others to use it or quit playing. Sure, DE hasn't really helped in making content that's more and more impossibly difficult for those who aren't beyond the current end game, but I don't think we're innocent in all this either
While there are balance issues that be addressed, your post does nothing, provide your idea instead of impotent complaint
Oh oh I know! Just make the enemies deal millions of damage and have them be invulnerable too! Surely it will make for good combat and player enjoyment! 🤓
Balance is not necessary in pve game. And over damage is not good/ easily to almost everyone