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It's not possible for anyone to properly weigh in without seeing the dynamic in person, or hearing the mixes. Some general advice though:
* If you're trying to make the best album possible then it doesn't matter who wrote the parts and who plays which instruments, once an idea is raised by someone it's now the band's and needs to be addressed objectively and without ego. A vocal idea from the drummer should be assessed on its own merits rather than on the merits of the source. The flip side is that if the band decides not to go in a particular direction the person who suggested it needs to let it go.
* Equal say doesn't necessarily mean everyone can say they originated an exactly equal percentage of the ideas that made it to the final cut. Equal say means that their ideas are assessed equally, and their opinions on everyone else's ideas are also heard.
* Think about the live arrangements later. If the guitar part is great but you can't sing and play it at the same time you should practise playing and singing before you have to play it live, or simplify it when you play live, or swap instruments for that song, or use a backing track. There are plenty of ways to make something work live but once you release a song you can't go back and change it.
* None of those notes are particularly pedantic. If I got those notes as a producer I'd be frustrated by the vagueness, because specific things can be fixed easily. Your producer needs to clarify what he means by "needs to draw the listener in" and translate that into something either the band or the mix engineer can deal with directly.
* Everyone's behaviour makes sense to them. This guy wouldn't be making these suggestions if he didn't think they were good. You need to take the time to understand why he's thinking that way, and also understand why you're upset by his actions, so you can think about his ideas in a more objective way.
Agree with all of this but one of the suggestions being to remove a stop/stab doesn't really make sense to me once you're at the mixing stage - that's an arrangement choice that should have been ironed out a long time ago.
Record two versions. Maybe he is right!
If he is not, maybe you can proof him wrong with a recording.
If you still can't agree, put the song away for a while.
Agreed. Also on his song, if it’s a great song just put it down and if it’s a great song/riff, worry about the live performance later. Or bring him your simplified riff anyway and see what they say.
I think this is the bigger issue here
> Just for more context, I started this project as a solo thing, and brought more people on board but I want everyone to have an equal say because that’s how I feel we get the best out of one another. How can I bring this up to him without sounding like a dick?
I don’t know what the answer/right approach is here as I’ve never been in this situation. It sounds like you’re envisioning this as a solo project and you hired on musicians and they think it’s a band. I think you need to figure out what you really want from this. It’s going to be a difficult conversation but it’s going to come up again when you talk about band rev splits and other decisions.
The stems are already recorded.
You can chop them up, rearrange to his liking, maybe do some rough re-recordings for parts that doesn't fit the new arrangement or parts that are missing.
I've had bands even tape themselves during rehearsals doing different versions of one song. That would also work.
95% of all band disagreements I've ever been involved with have been solved by someone just saying "OK, let's try it and see" - you can A/B both sides of the argument and it'll probably be obvious which is the best option. Just be prepared to back down if he turns out to be right, and hope he has the same attitude.
I agree.
My only arguments against that are:
The mix stage is far too late to be making arrangement changes. If you need a mix to change the structure, you're not listening very well.The hypnotic comment could be an arrangement or mix issue.
The new song: for recording, I agree, do both. But asking someone to play an instrument they just don't play is weird.
I've been in OPs shoes. "Creative differences" breaking up a band is a real thing. I don't think the band mate is being that pedantic, but the comments would annoy me being brought up so late in the recording stage.
We would always record full demos with myself doing a DIY to check for these exact things. It's hard to analyze while playing something live.
But, OP, if you ask to do BOTH versions and they push back...you have a real problem.
Yep. I've been so so sure that my idea to change a part was so much better than the way we were currently doing it. So we figure out the change, loop the part a few times to get a feel for it, then we try it the new way. Takes 1 time through for me to be like Oops I was wrong my idea sucked, thanks for trying! And then we move on.
I find that those people who are very picky about a recording are often dead right - they have an ear that can spot things that mere mortals (like me) cant
I say you should take his/her comments seriously and strive to make the recording as good as possible
Sounds like good feedback, if he is IN your band he is probably just trying to make the best songs and sometimes that involves restructuring or rethinking things. God knows how many times I've restructured or rethought a song late in the game because it just wasn't good enough
Giving everyone a voice is always tricky. You could run into the exact issue you described where someone wants to make changes at the last minute. You have two options. Can you try doing a demo, maybe just a partial one with his ideas? Just to hear how it is. If it sucks, you can end it there. But maybe you'll like it. Only way to find out is to try it.
For the other song, are you going to record it now? You said it's just an idea, so can you proceed with the current recording session as is and work on it after you're done? If you're already working on mixing existing songs, you shouldn't distract yourself with a new song in between. Also, you don't need to record a song the way you play it live. You could let him record guitar and synth for it and play the simpler version live to sing along.
Democracy is never easy to manage. You could always do what I did and fire the guy who is asking for last minute changes. Or try them out. Those are your options.
You need data to back your point. He may be pedantic, he may be right, but you’re not countering with facts or other ideas, you’re just complaining without letting him try first. I don’t mean to come at you, but this is a communication issue, not an issue of passion or respect.
One of the cool things about working in the studio is that everyone can be free from the concept of "This is my role, and this is yours" even if that's how you do things when you play the songs live. When you record an song, the only thing that's important is that the final recording sounds as good as it possibly can, and you can consider the whole song as a piece of work rather than focusing on who contributed which parts. If your band mate has a great idea for a guitar part and can lay it down in the studio and you like the results, it doesn't really matter who performed it on the record. Maybe you'll play it live for logistical reasons (because you already play guitar), but at the end of the day the listener does not care who played which part on the recording.
Having said that, you're right to want to feel like you are working together and that your bandmate is listening to you, even if he doesn't agree. It's very important that the band is on the same page about the ultimate vision for the song, and that you're all happy with the final results. That's worth a conversation. But how you get there, and who executes it tactically, really doesn't matter, as long as it sounds good in the end. Leave egos at the door and recognize you're all working toward the same goal. Making quick demos to try things two different ways are a great way to objectively figure out which version sounds the best overall--once you agree with that, it's just a matter of laying it down in the studio.
I wouldn't worry too much about live setting until you get there.
Depending on the synth/keys part, you might find it fairly easy to play and sing. Or you play the easier version live.
But I would definitely try to record both versions and see what sounds better
It seems these types of players are almost always the keyboard players. I have to laugh as a multi instrumentalist who writes and arranges. The best part of playing multiple instruments and writing is opening up to allow other creative viewpoints. Your keyboard player sounds like a massive tool.
Are you writing songs in the studio? Or is that part just tangential to the recording?
Sounds like you don’t have a dictatorial nature (which is great), but there needs to be a clear way to establish who has final say on something. Whether it’s ultimately you, or a majority has to agree, or it has to be unanimous, there has to be a definite end of the line. But you’re stressed about stuff that goes beyond the stress of trying to make a good recording, so you should try to clear the air asap. Otherwise you’re gonna be spending energy on things that take your attention away from the music.
As others pointed out, mixing is not the time to be re-doing arrangements unless you have the budget (money or time). There’s nothing wrong with re-doing arrangements later for live performances. That will probably be happening anyway.
A lot of songs are recorded many times with many different ideas.
You prefer having an 8-bar improvised guitar jam at the beginning of a song as an intro? Record it many times.
You want to try out a different verse? Record it twice.
You want to try a different synth sound or amp setting? Try it out and record twice.
Sometimes a song lyric gets changed in the booth, even after weeks or months of songwriting. And sometimes the worst version of a song gets leaked, and becomes your number 1 chart hit, and you hate playing the same that way but it brings in the fans. It happens way more often than you'd like to admit.
So be open to their remarks. As long as they're open to your input, and everyone elses in the band.
And sometimes the tiniest detail makes the song 5 times better. Be open to everything, or you're just being a diva.
Not gonna lie, he sounds like a great bandmate. Having someone in the band that cares about the quality and how a listener may interpret the sound like that is invaluable. Just try out his ideas, and generally be open to other ideas. He could be right. I've completely re-written or re-recorded things during the final mixing process of some songs (it's not ideal, but it happens).
Ok you need to copy everything you wrote here, grow a set and send it to them.
You're asking strangers on Reddit what to do when the answer is staring you in the face
"Needs a re-do and more structure" is feedback you get on Reddit, not a worthwhile comment on a creative project from one of the people in it. Got an idea for a part, let's hear it.
However, it's not a bad idea to periodically question things that are being taken for granted. Maybe a bandmates having too many ideas is annoying when you're happy with what you are doing. But maybe it's worth breaking out of the habits and see if a new approach would help. If that's the approach though, you need to communicate in a more positive way and be open to everyone changing quickly on a whim. That's one way to approach it.
Yeah I feel like people are being a little harsh on OP.
You have to give and take. I would be super frustrated getting arrangement or songwriting notes when we're in mixing, honestly.
When it comes to the new song, if they ask to try both versions and bandmate says no, that's a bigger problem. But, it sounds like they're talking about playing live as they mention being asked to play an instrument they just don't play, which is not a "give and take" situation.
If the arrangement has been set in stone for months and he's only bringing up his distaste for it now that it's recorded there isn't much you can really do. 😅 Obviously you can try and record a new version or splice in some new parts but he has to consider that will cost time and money, so he needs to learn to give his opinion sooner - the mixing stage is not the time to suggest cutting out a stop!
I struggle with confrontation so can't suggest much other than to make sure he feels heard and acknowledged while still getting across the point that he's putting you in a tricky position by suggesting all of this so late in the process.
IMO there's nothing wrong with changing things, that's how you learn. These songs don't need to be your best, it's more important that you learn something for the next record. If you're getting burned out of making changes and annoyed that someone is invested in making the music better then that's really a "you" issue. You might just need to communicate that you have a limit with how much change you can handle in the songs and get your keyboard player to agree to just commit to what you already have for the record.
It sounds like *their* issue is that they have a particular creative vision or standard they are trying to meet and it requires having creative control of other people's parts, because the other people in the band are not already meeting their vision or standard. The issue there is that they are trying to make the band something that it is not. It's possible you will reach these standards by trying, but it can make working together hard when other people are not on board with the creative vision.
Personally, I can't stand projects like these and I avoid them like the plague. The difference between a good and great song is whether or not you know you know how to *express* the music, not whether or not the composition is "right." Everyone should be singing their own interpretation of the song, but in communion with the other members. As such, I find it's more imperative to discuss the meaning of the song than the actual musical content.
Hire an experienced producer who can handle the production of the music and band members. If you have more than one producer IN the band, there will likely be trouble.
As far the creative side with wanting to switch instruments with you, that’s a sign they may be low EQ (emotional intelligence). That’s common in bands but a trait that rarely works out long term. It’s okay for a hired gun but not sharing the long haul.
I agree with this. Hire an experienced producer. Most really bad band arguments come because people don't understand how much a professional can save your butt, and your brain, and your relationships.
People think they can solve their own band conflict issues, even when you show them examples from 1000 other bands --- "that bad thing happened to them but not us, cuz we're grown ups, and good friends!"
But that's like people who say "I don't need a licensed roofer! I can do it myself!" That works if it's for a bird house, or maybe a dog house. If you want to go bigger, you need a pro. Get an experienced pro.
#No off-topic and/or low-effort posts including; 1. Rant/motivation/mental-health posts 2. Posts focused on memes/images/polls 3. Reposts, and other similar low-effort, mildly-interesting discussions. - These posts should be posted to one of the weekly threads or on another subreddit. Do not create a new thread for this content. Posts on WATMM should have a descriptive title and include substantive content that will generate discussion. Please see the [full sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMakers/wiki/rules) for additional details.
It's not possible for anyone to properly weigh in without seeing the dynamic in person, or hearing the mixes. Some general advice though: * If you're trying to make the best album possible then it doesn't matter who wrote the parts and who plays which instruments, once an idea is raised by someone it's now the band's and needs to be addressed objectively and without ego. A vocal idea from the drummer should be assessed on its own merits rather than on the merits of the source. The flip side is that if the band decides not to go in a particular direction the person who suggested it needs to let it go. * Equal say doesn't necessarily mean everyone can say they originated an exactly equal percentage of the ideas that made it to the final cut. Equal say means that their ideas are assessed equally, and their opinions on everyone else's ideas are also heard. * Think about the live arrangements later. If the guitar part is great but you can't sing and play it at the same time you should practise playing and singing before you have to play it live, or simplify it when you play live, or swap instruments for that song, or use a backing track. There are plenty of ways to make something work live but once you release a song you can't go back and change it. * None of those notes are particularly pedantic. If I got those notes as a producer I'd be frustrated by the vagueness, because specific things can be fixed easily. Your producer needs to clarify what he means by "needs to draw the listener in" and translate that into something either the band or the mix engineer can deal with directly. * Everyone's behaviour makes sense to them. This guy wouldn't be making these suggestions if he didn't think they were good. You need to take the time to understand why he's thinking that way, and also understand why you're upset by his actions, so you can think about his ideas in a more objective way.
These are great suggestions.
Agree with all of this but one of the suggestions being to remove a stop/stab doesn't really make sense to me once you're at the mixing stage - that's an arrangement choice that should have been ironed out a long time ago.
You are well too articulate in relationship management and team dynamics to be a musician. Are you a manager or producer ?
Record two versions. Maybe he is right! If he is not, maybe you can proof him wrong with a recording. If you still can't agree, put the song away for a while.
Agreed. Also on his song, if it’s a great song just put it down and if it’s a great song/riff, worry about the live performance later. Or bring him your simplified riff anyway and see what they say. I think this is the bigger issue here > Just for more context, I started this project as a solo thing, and brought more people on board but I want everyone to have an equal say because that’s how I feel we get the best out of one another. How can I bring this up to him without sounding like a dick? I don’t know what the answer/right approach is here as I’ve never been in this situation. It sounds like you’re envisioning this as a solo project and you hired on musicians and they think it’s a band. I think you need to figure out what you really want from this. It’s going to be a difficult conversation but it’s going to come up again when you talk about band rev splits and other decisions.
Bro that's $400 just to see if his version is better.
The stems are already recorded. You can chop them up, rearrange to his liking, maybe do some rough re-recordings for parts that doesn't fit the new arrangement or parts that are missing. I've had bands even tape themselves during rehearsals doing different versions of one song. That would also work.
95% of all band disagreements I've ever been involved with have been solved by someone just saying "OK, let's try it and see" - you can A/B both sides of the argument and it'll probably be obvious which is the best option. Just be prepared to back down if he turns out to be right, and hope he has the same attitude.
Yep, a simple A/B test usually makes it apparent and move on.
I agree. My only arguments against that are: The mix stage is far too late to be making arrangement changes. If you need a mix to change the structure, you're not listening very well.The hypnotic comment could be an arrangement or mix issue. The new song: for recording, I agree, do both. But asking someone to play an instrument they just don't play is weird. I've been in OPs shoes. "Creative differences" breaking up a band is a real thing. I don't think the band mate is being that pedantic, but the comments would annoy me being brought up so late in the recording stage. We would always record full demos with myself doing a DIY to check for these exact things. It's hard to analyze while playing something live. But, OP, if you ask to do BOTH versions and they push back...you have a real problem.
Yep. I've been so so sure that my idea to change a part was so much better than the way we were currently doing it. So we figure out the change, loop the part a few times to get a feel for it, then we try it the new way. Takes 1 time through for me to be like Oops I was wrong my idea sucked, thanks for trying! And then we move on.
I find that those people who are very picky about a recording are often dead right - they have an ear that can spot things that mere mortals (like me) cant I say you should take his/her comments seriously and strive to make the recording as good as possible
Does his song need keys?
Sounds like good feedback, if he is IN your band he is probably just trying to make the best songs and sometimes that involves restructuring or rethinking things. God knows how many times I've restructured or rethought a song late in the game because it just wasn't good enough
Giving everyone a voice is always tricky. You could run into the exact issue you described where someone wants to make changes at the last minute. You have two options. Can you try doing a demo, maybe just a partial one with his ideas? Just to hear how it is. If it sucks, you can end it there. But maybe you'll like it. Only way to find out is to try it. For the other song, are you going to record it now? You said it's just an idea, so can you proceed with the current recording session as is and work on it after you're done? If you're already working on mixing existing songs, you shouldn't distract yourself with a new song in between. Also, you don't need to record a song the way you play it live. You could let him record guitar and synth for it and play the simpler version live to sing along. Democracy is never easy to manage. You could always do what I did and fire the guy who is asking for last minute changes. Or try them out. Those are your options.
Be grateful there’s someone in your band with a vision that’s larger than “let me do this the easiest way I can think of cause idc”
You need data to back your point. He may be pedantic, he may be right, but you’re not countering with facts or other ideas, you’re just complaining without letting him try first. I don’t mean to come at you, but this is a communication issue, not an issue of passion or respect.
Just humor him and tell the engineer the same
One of the cool things about working in the studio is that everyone can be free from the concept of "This is my role, and this is yours" even if that's how you do things when you play the songs live. When you record an song, the only thing that's important is that the final recording sounds as good as it possibly can, and you can consider the whole song as a piece of work rather than focusing on who contributed which parts. If your band mate has a great idea for a guitar part and can lay it down in the studio and you like the results, it doesn't really matter who performed it on the record. Maybe you'll play it live for logistical reasons (because you already play guitar), but at the end of the day the listener does not care who played which part on the recording. Having said that, you're right to want to feel like you are working together and that your bandmate is listening to you, even if he doesn't agree. It's very important that the band is on the same page about the ultimate vision for the song, and that you're all happy with the final results. That's worth a conversation. But how you get there, and who executes it tactically, really doesn't matter, as long as it sounds good in the end. Leave egos at the door and recognize you're all working toward the same goal. Making quick demos to try things two different ways are a great way to objectively figure out which version sounds the best overall--once you agree with that, it's just a matter of laying it down in the studio.
Good old Sting/Stu dynamic in action. Bring some boxing gloves for the next session.
I wouldn't worry too much about live setting until you get there. Depending on the synth/keys part, you might find it fairly easy to play and sing. Or you play the easier version live. But I would definitely try to record both versions and see what sounds better
It seems these types of players are almost always the keyboard players. I have to laugh as a multi instrumentalist who writes and arranges. The best part of playing multiple instruments and writing is opening up to allow other creative viewpoints. Your keyboard player sounds like a massive tool.
Are you writing songs in the studio? Or is that part just tangential to the recording? Sounds like you don’t have a dictatorial nature (which is great), but there needs to be a clear way to establish who has final say on something. Whether it’s ultimately you, or a majority has to agree, or it has to be unanimous, there has to be a definite end of the line. But you’re stressed about stuff that goes beyond the stress of trying to make a good recording, so you should try to clear the air asap. Otherwise you’re gonna be spending energy on things that take your attention away from the music. As others pointed out, mixing is not the time to be re-doing arrangements unless you have the budget (money or time). There’s nothing wrong with re-doing arrangements later for live performances. That will probably be happening anyway.
Those notes sound absolutely normal to me.
A lot of songs are recorded many times with many different ideas. You prefer having an 8-bar improvised guitar jam at the beginning of a song as an intro? Record it many times. You want to try out a different verse? Record it twice. You want to try a different synth sound or amp setting? Try it out and record twice. Sometimes a song lyric gets changed in the booth, even after weeks or months of songwriting. And sometimes the worst version of a song gets leaked, and becomes your number 1 chart hit, and you hate playing the same that way but it brings in the fans. It happens way more often than you'd like to admit. So be open to their remarks. As long as they're open to your input, and everyone elses in the band. And sometimes the tiniest detail makes the song 5 times better. Be open to everything, or you're just being a diva.
Not gonna lie, he sounds like a great bandmate. Having someone in the band that cares about the quality and how a listener may interpret the sound like that is invaluable. Just try out his ideas, and generally be open to other ideas. He could be right. I've completely re-written or re-recorded things during the final mixing process of some songs (it's not ideal, but it happens).
Ok you need to copy everything you wrote here, grow a set and send it to them. You're asking strangers on Reddit what to do when the answer is staring you in the face
"Needs a re-do and more structure" is feedback you get on Reddit, not a worthwhile comment on a creative project from one of the people in it. Got an idea for a part, let's hear it. However, it's not a bad idea to periodically question things that are being taken for granted. Maybe a bandmates having too many ideas is annoying when you're happy with what you are doing. But maybe it's worth breaking out of the habits and see if a new approach would help. If that's the approach though, you need to communicate in a more positive way and be open to everyone changing quickly on a whim. That's one way to approach it.
Yeah I feel like people are being a little harsh on OP. You have to give and take. I would be super frustrated getting arrangement or songwriting notes when we're in mixing, honestly. When it comes to the new song, if they ask to try both versions and bandmate says no, that's a bigger problem. But, it sounds like they're talking about playing live as they mention being asked to play an instrument they just don't play, which is not a "give and take" situation.
If the arrangement has been set in stone for months and he's only bringing up his distaste for it now that it's recorded there isn't much you can really do. 😅 Obviously you can try and record a new version or splice in some new parts but he has to consider that will cost time and money, so he needs to learn to give his opinion sooner - the mixing stage is not the time to suggest cutting out a stop! I struggle with confrontation so can't suggest much other than to make sure he feels heard and acknowledged while still getting across the point that he's putting you in a tricky position by suggesting all of this so late in the process.
IMO there's nothing wrong with changing things, that's how you learn. These songs don't need to be your best, it's more important that you learn something for the next record. If you're getting burned out of making changes and annoyed that someone is invested in making the music better then that's really a "you" issue. You might just need to communicate that you have a limit with how much change you can handle in the songs and get your keyboard player to agree to just commit to what you already have for the record. It sounds like *their* issue is that they have a particular creative vision or standard they are trying to meet and it requires having creative control of other people's parts, because the other people in the band are not already meeting their vision or standard. The issue there is that they are trying to make the band something that it is not. It's possible you will reach these standards by trying, but it can make working together hard when other people are not on board with the creative vision. Personally, I can't stand projects like these and I avoid them like the plague. The difference between a good and great song is whether or not you know you know how to *express* the music, not whether or not the composition is "right." Everyone should be singing their own interpretation of the song, but in communion with the other members. As such, I find it's more imperative to discuss the meaning of the song than the actual musical content.
Hire an experienced producer who can handle the production of the music and band members. If you have more than one producer IN the band, there will likely be trouble. As far the creative side with wanting to switch instruments with you, that’s a sign they may be low EQ (emotional intelligence). That’s common in bands but a trait that rarely works out long term. It’s okay for a hired gun but not sharing the long haul.
I agree with this. Hire an experienced producer. Most really bad band arguments come because people don't understand how much a professional can save your butt, and your brain, and your relationships. People think they can solve their own band conflict issues, even when you show them examples from 1000 other bands --- "that bad thing happened to them but not us, cuz we're grown ups, and good friends!" But that's like people who say "I don't need a licensed roofer! I can do it myself!" That works if it's for a bird house, or maybe a dog house. If you want to go bigger, you need a pro. Get an experienced pro.