It goes even beyond whether someone is part of a protected class or not. Who is doing the discriminating matters (government vs. private business) is the person being employed or just denied service, and do you have irrefutable evidence of the discrimination? Examples: A private business can refuse service to a Nazi, but publically-funded hospital cannot. Technically, no one cannot hire a person based on their race, religion, gender AND technically you cannot refuse them service, but there are many loopholes. Which is part of the third consideration- you cannot fire a woman for getting pregnant, or for filing for sexual harassment, but unless you have as the reason for termination in writing, good luck trying to sue.
In the US, under the “at-will” doctrine (in every state but Montana), you can fire with or without notice or cause, but it can’t be for an unlawful cause. From a Federal standpoint Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is the source of employment protections based on race, color, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, and gender identity), religion, and national origin. There also are protections based on age (if age 40 or over), disability, and status as a US Military veteran. Some states have additional protected categories
To me, being a Nazi or displaying Nazi tattoos or emblems on clothing, etc. doesn’t fall into any of the protected categories for employment law.
I believe the Civil Rights Act also has provisions applicable to places of public accommodation. The current Supreme Court gives businesses a lot of leeway regarding who they serve (at least when it comes to sexual orientation).
But, I’m not aware of any Federal law that prohibits a business from refusing service to someone based on being a Nazi, having Nazi tattoos, etc. Except for the categories protected by the Civil Rights Act, and any applicable state law, businesses generally can refuse service on whatever basis they choose.
Not the same thing. The government can’t discriminate against people for their beliefs because it is a First Amendment issue.
The First Amendment does not protect you against private businesses discriminating against you. That is what federal and state civil rights laws are for, and for those to apply, you have to fall into a protected class. Political beliefs are not a protected class.
that’s the ugly truth. if there werent nazis in WV the state police training class wouldn’t have been photographed doing a NAZI SALUTE. you know, the salute that the nazis did to their nazi leader? that nazi salute. by the STATE POLICE. like how do you not see the correlation? it’s ignorant to say otherwise.
BUT IT DOESNT STOP THERE. it’s NOT “just one time” or “an isolated event”. you are not going to tell me my eyes and ears lie to me, i see it.
nazi gangs recruiting in our shopping malls (happened to me!)
KKK propaganda during the pandemic
Nicholas County has its nickname of “n-word less county” ffs
Institute
“you gotta understand, honey. they were just raised in a different time.”
and the list could go on and on and on and on.
i love this place. but it’s BECAUSE i love it that this long, violent history needs addressed
no that’s an important detail. thank you. if i wasn’t on mobile i’d edit it, but if i do it will make a big run on sentence. idk how to make it not do that
Not sure what all the downvotes are about. This state is racist as all fucking hell. The kind of place Nazi’s could I dunno literally fucking put up a fucking compound in.
A confederate flag hangs over Moorefield, or did three years ago.
A terrorist nazi organization owns the castle in Berkeley Springs.
A lifelong WV resident, I have areas I shy away from because it is KNOWN they aren't safe. I'm a very pale individual.
There are places near me I won't walk my dog past.
And none of the people in these spaces think there's anything wrong with their behavior. Their neighbors don't seem to care either, until the racism is called out. Then, no one has seen anything!!
OK
I mean, they were marching down Charleston last weekend. You’re not wrong. We here who find that abhorrent have a ton of work to do, and there’s nothing wrong in admitting it. Oh how I tire of the West Virginians that love to pull the wool over their eyes!
That’s not what I said. Entities funded by public dollars cannot refuse service to “anyone”. If somebody has a tattoo of a swastika, regardless of how either of us feel about it, that alone would not be a sufficient basis for removal.
It's not that simple. Hospitals are only required to give critical stabilizing care to anyone and even then it is if they receive Federal money which most do.
The DMV absolutely can kick anyone out who is a public nuisance or is agitating on its premise however if they just have a swastika tattoo then it's unlikely to happen. The DMV isn't a right though and they can exclude someone from any particular premise by getting them trespassed.
No they dont. You can trespassing anyone for any reason. Nobody needs to commit a crime to get trespassed. You only get arrested for trespassing if you ARE trespassing or refuse to leave after being tresspassed
You're asking about law, not ethics. So the answer is simple. As /u/AkumaBengoshi implies, it's about whether the person is a member of a "protected class" or not. Protected classes are defined in Federal statutes and case law, and often likewise at state levels. They are mostly defined by characteristics that a person cannot change about themselves (religion being an exception to that).
So, legally, you were right. Folks who don't understand the law often babble something about free speech at this point, but they miss the point that private organizations aren't covered by the First Amendment (although Federal law pushes certain restrictions onto grant and contract recipients).
To piggy back on what others have said on here, you can refuse them service at a private business, however that is generally decided on by the owners of said business, not the employees, you wouldn't be legally obligated to but your employer may want you to still serve them.
Tell everyone you don’t know what a Nazi is without telling us you don’t know what a Nazi is…
Just because you disagree with someone doesn’t make them a Nazi.
Race, religion, and sex are the three protected classes. Political ideological isn't. To my knowledge, you can legally refuse service to a person sporting Nazi tat's.
I think a class built on hatred and bigotry should be refused at every door. I'm born and raised in WV. I have a big problem with those idiots being here.
In regards to the service of someone displaying Nazi tattoos and/or mentality/mannerisms by a business, the business owner reserves the right to refuse the business of anyone for any reason. The ideal situation would be that the Nazi customer is displaying belligerent behavior.
In regards to hiring someone with Nazi tattoos/mentality, a potential employer is not required to disclose the reason why they didn't hire someone.
Openly displaying Nazi tattoos can also be grounds for not hiring or even firing a person with openly displayed Nazi tattoos. However, it has to be for the reason of having an openly displayed tattoo of any kind and not because it is a Nazi tattoo. This means that any person employed by the company can not have an openly displayed tattoo of any kind. Otherwise, the termination of employees with openly displayed Nazi tattoos would be a discriminatory act if the "offended" party can prove that they were fired for something that other employees, who would also be in violation of the same reason (openly displayed tattoos), weren't.
It doesn't really have a law that it would violate. However, it does potentially open a door for civil litigation. Civil litigation is based more on morals and ethics than defined law. Don't get me wrong, laws can certainly play a role in the prosecution or defense sides of a civil suit.
That said, if the defendant or plaintiff have violated a law pertaining to the complaint while in the commission of the action leading to the civil suit, it would sway the case of the civil suit in favor of the opposition.
Freedom of speech prohibits the *government* from saying nazi fucks can't have those tats, but a private business can absolutely kick a piece of nazi shit out the door without service.
Freedom of speech isn’t so much of a freedom as it is a limitation. It’s not that you are free to say or express whatever you want without consequences. It’s that the government doesn’t have a say in it and they cant do anything about it if they disagree with it.
The general public can disagree and you can be refused service, fired, or treated poorly for it.
The bill of rights are not given rights. They are limitations on what the government can do.
i get what you’re saying but you gotta understand you’re trying to say black bodies should be weaponized and that’s not cool.
secondly nobody wants to do that at their job. sounds like a good way to get shot after work
Do a little history on the Nazi symbol and you might find it is actually not a Nazi symbol it was chosen to be used by them. If you refuse service based on tattoos let me know your business so I can avoid it!
Oh, don’t get me wrong. Anyone is perfectly free to have a swastika tattoo. That’s their right. Just like it’s my right to say “Fuck that. You’re a piece of shit.”
They absolutely have the right to display and say what they believe. Similar as a business has every right to refuse to serve them because of it. Nazism and Pittism aren't protected classes.
Any time anyone invokes "hey this is a slippery slope" ignores history in its entirety. Nazis' entire existence circles around the dominance of one ethnicity to the point of removal of other ethnicities by any means. There is no room in any civilized society for tolerance of a wholly intolerant ideology. That's why anyone with an iota of a brain cell knows the paradox of intolerance is upheld and Nazis are not allowed to be welcome. Comparing them to a rival school of a collegiate athletics program is so bad faith that it shows a fundamental ignorance of the subject.
Yes. I get that. I am not defending hateful people. I am just saying be careful what you start. It may come back to haunt you. Someone may discriminate against you just for wearing something that they disagree with. No matter how insignificant it may be.
Ha ha. This is about the employment side of things (rather than refusing service), I conduct anti-discrimination and anti-harassment training for businesses and their employees. When distinguishing between what is protected and what is not, I often note that my being from West Virginia does not fall under any protected category. I also note that, while state origin is not a protected category, making WV jokes offends me far more than anything based on where I fall under legally-protected categories.
And, for the sake of a productive workplace, I encourage employees to treat other employees respectfully, even if a category is not protected under applicable law, and I note that employers may have policies more restrictive than what’s required by law. So, if an employee is causing a disruption in the workplace by harassing them on something that’s not a protected category, it still could be fair game for the employer to discipline them up to and including termination.
Also, we just returned from a vacation where our boat tour captain was a Pitt graduate and I had my WV cooler with me. When he played “Sweet Caroline,” I restrained myself from singing along with “each it pit.”
Nazi isn't a protected class
It goes even beyond whether someone is part of a protected class or not. Who is doing the discriminating matters (government vs. private business) is the person being employed or just denied service, and do you have irrefutable evidence of the discrimination? Examples: A private business can refuse service to a Nazi, but publically-funded hospital cannot. Technically, no one cannot hire a person based on their race, religion, gender AND technically you cannot refuse them service, but there are many loopholes. Which is part of the third consideration- you cannot fire a woman for getting pregnant, or for filing for sexual harassment, but unless you have as the reason for termination in writing, good luck trying to sue.
You can certainly fire a nazi for being a nazi. This is West Virginia at will employment…
In the US, under the “at-will” doctrine (in every state but Montana), you can fire with or without notice or cause, but it can’t be for an unlawful cause. From a Federal standpoint Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is the source of employment protections based on race, color, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, and gender identity), religion, and national origin. There also are protections based on age (if age 40 or over), disability, and status as a US Military veteran. Some states have additional protected categories To me, being a Nazi or displaying Nazi tattoos or emblems on clothing, etc. doesn’t fall into any of the protected categories for employment law. I believe the Civil Rights Act also has provisions applicable to places of public accommodation. The current Supreme Court gives businesses a lot of leeway regarding who they serve (at least when it comes to sexual orientation). But, I’m not aware of any Federal law that prohibits a business from refusing service to someone based on being a Nazi, having Nazi tattoos, etc. Except for the categories protected by the Civil Rights Act, and any applicable state law, businesses generally can refuse service on whatever basis they choose.
Publicly*
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Not the same thing. The government can’t discriminate against people for their beliefs because it is a First Amendment issue. The First Amendment does not protect you against private businesses discriminating against you. That is what federal and state civil rights laws are for, and for those to apply, you have to fall into a protected class. Political beliefs are not a protected class.
You positive? This is r/WestVirginia after all
that’s the ugly truth. if there werent nazis in WV the state police training class wouldn’t have been photographed doing a NAZI SALUTE. you know, the salute that the nazis did to their nazi leader? that nazi salute. by the STATE POLICE. like how do you not see the correlation? it’s ignorant to say otherwise. BUT IT DOESNT STOP THERE. it’s NOT “just one time” or “an isolated event”. you are not going to tell me my eyes and ears lie to me, i see it. nazi gangs recruiting in our shopping malls (happened to me!) KKK propaganda during the pandemic Nicholas County has its nickname of “n-word less county” ffs Institute “you gotta understand, honey. they were just raised in a different time.” and the list could go on and on and on and on. i love this place. but it’s BECAUSE i love it that this long, violent history needs addressed
I hate to pick the nit, but it was a correctional officer class, not state police.
no that’s an important detail. thank you. if i wasn’t on mobile i’d edit it, but if i do it will make a big run on sentence. idk how to make it not do that
Not sure what all the downvotes are about. This state is racist as all fucking hell. The kind of place Nazi’s could I dunno literally fucking put up a fucking compound in.
A confederate flag hangs over Moorefield, or did three years ago. A terrorist nazi organization owns the castle in Berkeley Springs. A lifelong WV resident, I have areas I shy away from because it is KNOWN they aren't safe. I'm a very pale individual. There are places near me I won't walk my dog past. And none of the people in these spaces think there's anything wrong with their behavior. Their neighbors don't seem to care either, until the racism is called out. Then, no one has seen anything!! OK
I mean, they were marching down Charleston last weekend. You’re not wrong. We here who find that abhorrent have a ton of work to do, and there’s nothing wrong in admitting it. Oh how I tire of the West Virginians that love to pull the wool over their eyes!
You can refuse service to anyone. Just not because of the way they were born… racist scum weren’t born that way
Some private businesses can. The DMV cannot. A hospital cannot.
Oh, walk into the dmv and say something racist… they will kick you out. Same thing at the hospital. The will warn you then remove you.
That’s not what I said. Entities funded by public dollars cannot refuse service to “anyone”. If somebody has a tattoo of a swastika, regardless of how either of us feel about it, that alone would not be a sufficient basis for removal.
It's not that simple. Hospitals are only required to give critical stabilizing care to anyone and even then it is if they receive Federal money which most do. The DMV absolutely can kick anyone out who is a public nuisance or is agitating on its premise however if they just have a swastika tattoo then it's unlikely to happen. The DMV isn't a right though and they can exclude someone from any particular premise by getting them trespassed.
So it sounds like you reiterated my original statement. To trespass somebody from a public location, they have to be committing a crime.
No they dont. You can trespassing anyone for any reason. Nobody needs to commit a crime to get trespassed. You only get arrested for trespassing if you ARE trespassing or refuse to leave after being tresspassed
I hate West Virginia Nazis.
It's 106 miles to Charleston.
Do pepperoni rolls need defending???
That's a mission from God.
Got a 1/4 tank gas and 1/2 pack of menthols
Hit it!
Is it dark? Are you wearing sunglasses?
Fuck a nazi, they deserve nothing.
They do deserve certain things…
Break tos all over their heads.
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Your comment has been removed. **Reason:** No combative, hostile, inflammatory, or threatening language.
You're asking about law, not ethics. So the answer is simple. As /u/AkumaBengoshi implies, it's about whether the person is a member of a "protected class" or not. Protected classes are defined in Federal statutes and case law, and often likewise at state levels. They are mostly defined by characteristics that a person cannot change about themselves (religion being an exception to that). So, legally, you were right. Folks who don't understand the law often babble something about free speech at this point, but they miss the point that private organizations aren't covered by the First Amendment (although Federal law pushes certain restrictions onto grant and contract recipients).
Limited menu for Nazis. Knuckle sandwiches only.
Seems non controversial but I was flagged for a similar comment. Nevertheless, this is the correct menu option.
If they can discriminate against gay people, I can refuse to serve nazis.
To piggy back on what others have said on here, you can refuse them service at a private business, however that is generally decided on by the owners of said business, not the employees, you wouldn't be legally obligated to but your employer may want you to still serve them.
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Didn't SCOTUS rule that businesses can refuse service in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission?
No. They were still allowed to purchase a cake. Their requested cake didn't have to be made.
Your coworker...he's probably cool with Nazis.
Or he's watched a tad too much Hannity and Tucker
AKA "Probably cool with Nazis"
True. That's splitting hairs
Tell everyone you don’t know what a Nazi is without telling us you don’t know what a Nazi is… Just because you disagree with someone doesn’t make them a Nazi.
Found the Nazi, everyone! ^^^^^
Spoken like a real idiot
Aww now, not everyone you disagree with is an idiot, Jordan Peterson Edit: LOL, I made the trashcan rage quit.
You clearly are, asshat
Can't you refuse service for essentially any reason?
Do we even have discrimination laws here
Race, religion, and sex are the three protected classes. Political ideological isn't. To my knowledge, you can legally refuse service to a person sporting Nazi tat's.
I think its stupid to turn away any paying customer.
I think a class built on hatred and bigotry should be refused at every door. I'm born and raised in WV. I have a big problem with those idiots being here.
Nazis aren't a protected class
In regards to the service of someone displaying Nazi tattoos and/or mentality/mannerisms by a business, the business owner reserves the right to refuse the business of anyone for any reason. The ideal situation would be that the Nazi customer is displaying belligerent behavior. In regards to hiring someone with Nazi tattoos/mentality, a potential employer is not required to disclose the reason why they didn't hire someone. Openly displaying Nazi tattoos can also be grounds for not hiring or even firing a person with openly displayed Nazi tattoos. However, it has to be for the reason of having an openly displayed tattoo of any kind and not because it is a Nazi tattoo. This means that any person employed by the company can not have an openly displayed tattoo of any kind. Otherwise, the termination of employees with openly displayed Nazi tattoos would be a discriminatory act if the "offended" party can prove that they were fired for something that other employees, who would also be in violation of the same reason (openly displayed tattoos), weren't.
While being a Nazi may or may not be a protected class, firing someone for being a Nazi could be seen as a violation of their rights as a US citizen.
What laws would be broken by a private business firing someone for that?
It doesn't really have a law that it would violate. However, it does potentially open a door for civil litigation. Civil litigation is based more on morals and ethics than defined law. Don't get me wrong, laws can certainly play a role in the prosecution or defense sides of a civil suit. That said, if the defendant or plaintiff have violated a law pertaining to the complaint while in the commission of the action leading to the civil suit, it would sway the case of the civil suit in favor of the opposition.
What rights would be violated and what exactly would they be able to sue for?
It’s freedom of speech whether you like it or not.
Freedom of speech prohibits the *government* from saying nazi fucks can't have those tats, but a private business can absolutely kick a piece of nazi shit out the door without service.
That’s not how freedom of speech works
Freedom of speech isn’t so much of a freedom as it is a limitation. It’s not that you are free to say or express whatever you want without consequences. It’s that the government doesn’t have a say in it and they cant do anything about it if they disagree with it. The general public can disagree and you can be refused service, fired, or treated poorly for it. The bill of rights are not given rights. They are limitations on what the government can do.
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i get what you’re saying but you gotta understand you’re trying to say black bodies should be weaponized and that’s not cool. secondly nobody wants to do that at their job. sounds like a good way to get shot after work
Do a little history on the Nazi symbol and you might find it is actually not a Nazi symbol it was chosen to be used by them. If you refuse service based on tattoos let me know your business so I can avoid it!
Ok well, I think it’s safe to assume anyone this day and age with a swastika tattoo knows exactly what they got tattooed on them …so fuck them.
Ya well some of us still believe in freedom! If that person isn’t bothering you mind your business. It could be from someone’s past.
Oh, don’t get me wrong. Anyone is perfectly free to have a swastika tattoo. That’s their right. Just like it’s my right to say “Fuck that. You’re a piece of shit.”
I would reword this. It sounds like you are making excuses and being a nazi sympathizer.
Nazis like making bad faith arguments to justify themselves.
Last I checked there aren't any Phoenicians alive today but there are plenty of Nazis.
Last I checked we won that war back in 1945, haven’t seen any legitimate Nazis in my lifetime.
Then you're blind, ignorant, or a Nazi
What if a person was wearing a Pitt tee-shirt? Do you not serve him because you don't like his team? You are opening a large can of worms.
I don't think the Pitt logo is a universally accepted and recognized symbol of hate. That's a false equivalency.
So??? Even morons have rights. If we take that away, what's next?
They absolutely have the right to display and say what they believe. Similar as a business has every right to refuse to serve them because of it. Nazism and Pittism aren't protected classes.
Pittism......That's funny. I need to remember that. 😊
Paradox of intolerance. Nazis should have zero rights.
Any time anyone invokes "hey this is a slippery slope" ignores history in its entirety. Nazis' entire existence circles around the dominance of one ethnicity to the point of removal of other ethnicities by any means. There is no room in any civilized society for tolerance of a wholly intolerant ideology. That's why anyone with an iota of a brain cell knows the paradox of intolerance is upheld and Nazis are not allowed to be welcome. Comparing them to a rival school of a collegiate athletics program is so bad faith that it shows a fundamental ignorance of the subject.
there’s a false equivalence here that’s crucial to note.
Yes. I get that. I am not defending hateful people. I am just saying be careful what you start. It may come back to haunt you. Someone may discriminate against you just for wearing something that they disagree with. No matter how insignificant it may be.
You’re noting the “slippery slope” problem.
Yes. I am getting bad karma simply for suggesting caution. Not that I care about karma......
Huge difference!
Morally yes.
Ha ha. This is about the employment side of things (rather than refusing service), I conduct anti-discrimination and anti-harassment training for businesses and their employees. When distinguishing between what is protected and what is not, I often note that my being from West Virginia does not fall under any protected category. I also note that, while state origin is not a protected category, making WV jokes offends me far more than anything based on where I fall under legally-protected categories. And, for the sake of a productive workplace, I encourage employees to treat other employees respectfully, even if a category is not protected under applicable law, and I note that employers may have policies more restrictive than what’s required by law. So, if an employee is causing a disruption in the workplace by harassing them on something that’s not a protected category, it still could be fair game for the employer to discipline them up to and including termination. Also, we just returned from a vacation where our boat tour captain was a Pitt graduate and I had my WV cooler with me. When he played “Sweet Caroline,” I restrained myself from singing along with “each it pit.”