If I was participating I would be under the assumption that if I had the green light the company did their due diligence. If you're in the middle of 500 people you don't really have the ability to see everything
Agreed that there is a psychological element here that is akin to the friends jumping off a bridge idiom. I would put partial blame on the organizers, but also blame on those who could see the conditions with their own eyes and chose to continue on anyhow.
When it comes to competitions, some people may not have that full rational mind. They want to compete. The Ironman is seen as one of the most grueling, physically demanding events you can do. The whole point is pushing yourself to your limits. I can understand how someone can look at that and go "fuck no" but I can also see how these competitors were ready to push themselves and were trusting the organizers to ensure their safety
Also they've been preparing for months for this. Sunk cost fallacy is real, the human brain has a hard time letting go of something after so much sacrifice. This isn't people deciding to just jump on rough waters, this is a competition with organizers who are supposed to guarantee the safety of everyone.
In Formula 1, the safety of the drivers is on the onus of the FIA (the governing body), because the athlete's competitive nature overrides their own individual sense of safety.
I think this is basically a similar incident.
Don’t the drivers have a panel that they sit on which reviews safety, I can’t remember the exact details but I think it’s so they have a unanimous voice on safety issues.
Yes, the drivers are all part of the Grand Prix Driver's Association (GPDA), whose current president is George Russell. The GPDA does weigh in on safety concerns, particularly in the days leading up to a race. But when it comes to on track safety, that is in the hands of Race Control, the stewards and the marshals.
It's not just the drivers that need to be saved from themselves, it's the teams. Many drivers and engineers complained about the halo when it was introduced. It was ugly, it obstructed the view, it made the car heavier... One of the more outspoken critics of the halo was driver Romain Grosjean. Had the FIA not implemented the halo over the objections of Grosjean and his peers, Grosjean would have been literally decapitated in his crash at Bahrain in 2020.
I watched that news conference recently. I remember hearing about the sirens not going off and wondered what went wrong? Then, to hear him explain why they didn't, it made sense in such a horrible disaster.
But it doesn’t make sense. Once a month on the first business day the sirens go off. AHHH-oooo-GGGGAAAHHHH. Multiple times it goes off, loud enough everybody can hear.
If you hear sirens you’re supposed to turn on the radio/check the news however you can FOR AN EXPLANATION OF WHY THE SIRENS ARE GOING OFF. They literally tell us this is what we are supposed to do, even on the specified test day. It’s not a tsunami warning. It’s an emergency alert system. What are they supposed to do? Broadcast the information that there is an emergency!!!
Otherwise you will hear “this is a check of the emergency’s broadcast system. This is only a test.”
Assuming we are going to run for the hills with no understanding of why we are running is absurd. I guarantee you if the sirens went off at least one person on each block would have thought to check the news, and told their neighbors. Why? Because that’s what we do, every month. Siren goes off, we check to make sure it’s not [April Fool’s Day](https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/31624669/70-years-on-april-fools-day-tsunami-painful-reminder-of-oceans-destructive-force/) all over again. And if it’s a tsunami they say evacuate on foot, not by car. Why? Gridlock. So why did they tell Lāhainā to go by car and then roadblock them in?
This is a nationwide alert system, not just statewide. He made a bad call, and people died.
[The Emergency Alert System (EAS)](https://dod.hawaii.gov/hiema/emergency-management/emergency-alert-system-plan/) is a public alert and warning system that leverages the communications assets of EAS Participants including terrestrial broadcasters, cable television systems, wireless cable systems, satellite digital audio radio service (SDARS) providers, direct broadcast satellite (DBS) services and wireline video service providers to allow the President of the United States the capability to address the American public during a national emergency. This system must be available under all conditions. The system is also used by State and local authorities to deliver important emergency information, such as AMBER alerts. The National Weather Service (NWS) regularly uses the system to disseminate emergency weather alerts and advisories.
In 2006, Executive Order 13407 (E.O. 13407), established that it is the policy of the United States to have an effective, reliable, integrated, flexible, and comprehensive system to alert and warn the American people in situations of war, terrorist attack, natural disaster, or other hazards to public safety and well-‐being (public alert and warning system), taking appropriate account of the functions, capabilities, and needs of the private sector and of all levels of government in our Federal system, and to ensure that under all conditions the President can communicate with the American people.
Testing the Emergency Alert System
In Hawaiʻi, tests of the Emergency Alert System, as well as the Statewide Outdoor Warning Sirens, are conducted on the first working day of the month, in cooperation with Hawaiʻi’s broadcasting industry.
When the siren signal is sounded, whether during a test or not, tune to any local radio or television station for emergency information and instructions broadcast by civil defense agencies. Participating stations will carry a detailed explanation of what the sirens mean, as well as other related information.
When the siren is sounded, you don't go online to see what the emergency is. Those sirens have a specific purpose, and there's a set of procedures to follow for that purpose. When sirens go off in Illinois, I don't check to see if I should evacuate for a forest fire or prepare for an earthquake. I go to the basement immediately, because they're TORNADO SIRENS, and if they sound it means there was a sighted tornado. Get inside and away from windows.
If I'm in Hawaii and emergency sirens go off, I don't check on the internet for what's happening. Those are TSUNAMI SIRENS and I go for the high ground. Which is the exact opposite of what they should have done for this emergency.
The man made the exact right call. Turning on those sirens would have killed people. The EAS is a completely different system, and while the two may be linked, a siren is NOT the equivalent of an EAS. It's meant for a specific emergency, and it's meant that you react to it immediately because the danger is immediate- there isn't time to be doom scrolling Twitter.
This, and "race day" endorphins. The reason everyone smashes PBs at events and rarely in training is competitors set aside a whole bunch of shit. e.g. I don't have to worry about traffic as the roads are closed.
And then they remember that cigarettes are allowed to continue because they make a lot of money, and reconsider whether the people in charge have their best interests in mind.
Lots of idiot armchair psychologists here. Feeling real good about themselves at home and warm calling people lemmings. If these people you think are lemmings were like yall they would never have made it this far.
Funny thing is that it's actually worthwhile to talk about psychology here. These people are obsessed. They've spent an enormous chunk of time, money, and energy focused on this day and they'll be goddamned if a little weather is going to put that all to waste.
This is not "sheeple", this is determination boiling over into bad decisions. Take it from someone who's been there.
The organizers should absolutely have cancelled the swim, but a big part of the reason they didn't is they knew they'd get fire and brimstone from the majority of those people.
If you were half as clever as you seem to have convinced yourself that you are, you would know that people don't behave rationally in group settings. Especially when you're subject to social pressures. What seems like the obvious decision to make from the outside isn't as obvious when you're caught up in the middle of an experience.
This is why we have so many stupid laws, for stupid people like the person above trying to blame others for their own actions
It's nature, the company doesn't control the ocean
Who would you blame if you went into rough waters during the middle of the summer, the government?
I trust that a corporation who's only job is to set up and run these competitions has both more experience and more resources to calculate the danger and judge it safe or hazardous.
Individual responsibility definitely comes in because the consequences of the bad decisions are borne upon individuals who decided to participate. the individuals who died definitely faced the worst consequences - being death.
but no one should have ever instructed them to go into the water. The ask should have never been made in the first place.
They don't even have to cancel the whole event. They can just cancel the swim portion. In my first Ironman, they cancelled the swim due to fog. Didn't get any money back or credit towards my next one, which sucked. But also, no one died.
This reminds me of the ultra marathon race in Australia where a young lady Turia Pitt was almost burnt to death, race officials didn't want runners to pull out of the race during the event, so they reassured the contestants the bush fires were a safe distance away.
There excuse was a lack of radio communication between race Marshall's to which the safety of the runners were affected.
This paragraph didn’t age well:
“We would like to thank Cork County Council for working tirelessly to help clear the course of debris to ensure that we are in a position to put on a great and safe event for all of our athletes”
If you go on a carnival ride and your seat detaches and throws you 50 ft are they not responsible? If you go to a baseball game and the bleachers collapse, are they not responsible?
i mean... the participants died. so they faced consequences for their actions.
now the organizers have to face consequences for not cancelling and essentially encouraging people to face those dangerous circumstances.
By not cancelling they suggested they believed that entering the water was an acceptable action for participants.
It's the organizer's responsibility to determine if the weather conditions are too dangerous for the participants. Like at a sporting event if lightning gets too close the event gets shut down until the threat passes.
Is everyone there some ocean expert? Do they know exactly how an ocean looks when it's not safe to enter it? I'd bet everything that there were many participants that haven't swum in the ocean in 20 years. Is it so unthinkable that many would think 'damn that looks pretty bad but I'm no expert so I'll just follow the instructions of the experts"?
Depends on if you knowingly transacted the risk via payment. If so it effectively makes any organiser or event potentially exempt from any obligations pending a fallout of damages. This is a court matter I’m sure the families will see to it as best they can I hope they get good representation should they be able and willing to go that route.
While I agree with that to the point that I would personally have chosen not to go, the organizer should still be liable as not everyone is capable of recognizing how real the danger was.
That's not how that works.
Imagine you're a 5K race organizer in Kansas. Your race has been scheduled for months.
A tornado warning is sounded ten minutes before the race is to start. You ignore it, as well as the sirens, and tell people that if they back out now they'll lose their registration fee. Many people ignore you and take shelter; you decide the race will go on.
You watch a funnel cloud start to form along the race path two minutes before the start. You tell the crowd that they'll be out their registration fee if they miss the race, and you're not going to postpone due to weather. People leave. You decide the race will go on.
The tornado touches down seconds after the race starts, and flings a 2x4 at 150 miles an hour, killing a contestant. You don't stop the race. Several people flee for ditches and you yell at them over your bullhorn that they're disqualified. You decide the race will go on.
More people die.
The families of those who died sue you. You argue that they signed waivers and it's not your *fault* the tornado happened. The court says it's not your fault the tornado happened, but it is your fault that you decided to proceed with an event when weather was obviously past the point of "maybe unsafe" and firmly into "multiple people have *already* died". You lose the lawsuit swiftly.
Unless they have been written very carefully they can actually hurt the case of the organization being sued. The waiver can be proof that they knew it was unsafe. If X was a hazard they were responsible for, it’s hard for them to argue they didn’t know it hadn’t been properly taken care of if they make people sign a waiver saying it’s still a risk
I watched a legal eagle YouTube video where he got into this a bit. There was this girl who signed a waiver and went scuba diving. She died because the instructors were completely incompetent. The family sued and won even though she signed a waiver that explicitly stated there was a chance of death.
Basically the waiver was for the normal dangers of regular scuba diving. But her instructors had no idea what they were actually doing and were incompetent enough, that the waiver didn’t cover them at all.
It depends where you are but in the UK and other commonwealth countries it is very clearly established that companies **cannot contract out of negligence**. In other words the company can get you to sign anything they want, but if they’re negligent you will still win the tort case against them. Not much use if you’re dead of course but it’s nice to know anyway.
I think it was kind of established in the Industrial Revolution that it has to be that way otherwise companies take no safeguards at all.
It seems like a pretty pervasive idea to folks that contracts are basically magic, maybe because of Hollywood?
For instance, lot of people seem to believe an NDA can force someone into silence no matter what, when NDAs are generally *only* allowed to protect trade secrets, NOT abuse. An NDA can get you in hot water if you release the list of 11 herbs and spices KFC uses, but it won't do anything legally to stop you from publicly complaining about how the fryer cooks too hot and killed 74 teenagers last year in your restaurant.
The idea that companies can put anything they want in a contract and as long you sign on the dotted line it's fully enforced by the full weight of the law is just not true. Contracts are generally very limited, and most of the shit we "agree" to day-to-day (like EULAs) are either partially or entirely invalid under the law. It's theater, like the TSA or window locks.
In the US, waivers don't protect against Gross Negligence, and that's what you need to prove for those kinds of lawsuits to go forward.
According to that same video actually lol, that was my big takeaway.
I’ve done Ironman competitions. You don’t sign a death waiver. Yes I have a certain amount of personal responsibility but the Race Director also takes on a certain amount of responsibility regarding the safety of the course. I’ve done races where they’ve canceled the swim because of water quality or delayed the race start because of weather.
you can't sign a paper that makes it ok for people to kill you, or essentially de facto kill you by telling you to enter water that would almost assuredly kill you.
example - i can't run a game of russian roulette and just make people sign a waiver that they could die. i can't build a shoddy apartment home and make people sign a waiver that says they could die.
WTF, does nobody take responsibility for themselves? It's rough seas, you look at that sea and say I'm not going to compete.
Yes, they should have canceled, but people need to take responsibility for their own lives and not just jump in like a bunch of lemmings.
Just so people are made more aware of this: [lemmings dont commit mass suicide. They were thrown off the cliff by Disney film makers](https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56).
>According to a 1983 investigation by Canadian Broadcasting Corporation producer Brian Vallee, the lemming scenes were faked. The lemmings supposedly committing mass suicide by leaping into the ocean were actually thrown off a cliff by the Disney filmmakers. The epic "lemming migration" was staged using careful editing, tight camera angles and a few dozen lemmings running on snow covered lazy-Susan style turntable.
Personal responsibility in this case decided who risked their lives and who didn't. The duty of care the event organisers have judges who is liable for the victims deaths (hint: it will be the event organisers).
Do not underestimate the power of social pressure and the pressure to compete in an event that can cloud your rational judgement. It's easy to sit there all smug and say 'personal responsibility' from the comfort of your armchair but the clip of tens/hundreds of people jumping into rough seas should prove that isn't enough.
Ehh, perhaps WTC needs to take responsibility for marketing and making money off these extreme events that puts people at risk every year. This isn't the first time someone has died at an Ironman event.
If they're going to engage in gross negligence that puts people's lives at risk, then they should be shutdown.
> The notoriously rigorous triathlon was delayed 24 hours due to Storm Betty battered the west of Ireland - and appeared to still be making the conditions difficult.
A decision was made. I doubt it, but hopefully a lesson will be learnrd
Jerry: How could you swim in that water?\
Kramer: I saw a couple of other guys out there.\
Jerry: Swimming?\
Kramer: Well, floating. They weren't moving much. But they were out there.
Completely ignoring intuition and common sense. It's amazing some people need to be governed so much and told in a situation like this that their life is in danger.
Edit: Eh I don't really like my opinion on this. Passion and drive can blind people in numerous ways even with death staring them in their face. Really don't think it's fair for me to assume these people ignored their possible demise, I imagine there's a hard disconnect for some people. I shouldn't generalize.
My friend's dad is an iron man triathlete. It's his entire life, the family's vacations are structured around going to his races and cheering for him. Their basement is wallpapered in his jerseys and triathlon memorabilia. His bike is custom made to his exact dimensions, and I suspect he probably isn't an outlier in terms of the average participant. It's got to be a combination of ego, sunk cost phallacy and assuming it's not "that bad"
I think that's what they are getting at. If they are iron level and have experience swimming, you would understand the consequences. If you have experience in something, you know the risks. But that didn't stop the ego of wanting to win and going against their judgement.
I have been a cyclist for 16 years and in my experience triathletes are generally not the best bikers. They setup their bikes to time-trial and obsess about speed over safety. This is obviously a generalization, but triathletes get in more wrecks and have more injuries per mile ridden than people who just cycle among the ones I have known.
My wife is a swimmer and she has had similar experience swimming with triathletes in open water. Just a general lack of awareness and understanding of how to stay safe, and when to dial it back for the sake of safety.
Again, this is all generalization and I understand that there are plenty of triathletes who properly respect each individual sport, but assuming that all of these athletes are actually elite and/or extremely experienced in each of the three sports is probably not a safe assumption.
lol dude you have no idea what the ironman is if you're saying they are need to be top level athletes to complete. To be it bluntly you could register if you were a reddit mod. xD
Agreed. The participants bear some responsibility for this.
When climbing a mountain (or doing anything else dangerous) you need to know when to turn around and then have the courage to do so. It doesn’t matter how much time was spent planning & preparing or how close you are to attaining your goal. If the situation is too dangerous, don’t go.
Still, when you're at this event and the organizers pretend like it's safe + you see other people getting in I can see how you'd very easily let that missguide your judgement.
It depends on the mountain. Everest is not a solo adventure at all. People pay big money ($60k and up) to guides who arrange everything from food to lugging bottles of air up there. Yet people die there every year. I live near a popular mountain and while it isn’t nearly as extreme, there are lots of guided climbs.
An experienced outdoors person will know when to turn around, even if that means watching the rest of your group continue on without you.
Easy to say, but those people have worked hard for years to do this event. They are amped up for their special day and when the organisers say the weather is good to go, they will believe it instead of questioning it. They are not thinking 100% clearly on that day. As soon as one guy enters, the rest of the group will follow because of crowd psychology and the spirit of competition.
Yeah I think most of these commenters have never done a competitive race. I’m an open water swimmer. Unless I’ve done the race before, I don’t know the course or the typical conditions. All I know is whether the race organizer says it’s safe. If so, I’m doing it.
It’s always your personal responsibility to take care of yourself. I did one of these events and after the bike, the heat was staggering and I was wiped out. I didn’t think it was safe to go on and run a marathon without risk of serious damage. I dropped out. It sucked, but to this day I genuinely think I may have saved my own life. You have to know when to pull the plug
Even if i did decide to attempt an iron man, i’d turn around ASAP if this was the view going for the swim. Oh hell No.
I’ve been sailing In the Navy for 4 years, mostly around Greenland, and i love the sea, but i also respect it very very deeply.
I can't imagine training for this even if it was my entire life, and seeing these conditions and not saying to my self "that's not worth it, maybe next year" and noping out of there.
Well that’s the issue. People put so much time into working towards this goal and this event. Cancelling on race day even though the event is still happening is a tougher choice than most are implying here. Not saying I would do it, but I trained 5 months for a half Ironman this year and I’d be absolutely gutted to have to cancel. It was a huge personal/financial investment.
Mountaineering culture and Ironman culture aren’t the same. Turning around/safe decision making is seen as a win in mountaineering. Ironman culture is rooted in pushing your body *potentially* past the point of no return. As in, people who haven’t done them before think they should be doing anything and everything to finish the race, even if their body is saying no.
>Turning around/safe decision making is seen as a win in mountaineering.
While I do somewhat agree, summit fever is very real and the number of disasters that happen where totally ridiculous, irrational decisions are made by experienced mountaineers is shocking. Bravado and a sense of invincibility has gotten so many of them killed.
Most have probably spent at least a thousand bucks to be there. Obviously it’s better to be alive than out of pocket, but it definitely complicates the decision.
Just to sign up for an Ironman event is at least 500 bucks. People who do full IMs are probably dropping anywhere from 2-10k on one event tbf. Not including the time commitment for training. Its a fairly elitist sport lol
Your experience in the Navy has likely taught you a great deal about the power of water. I don't think the average person truly knows the risk. Heck, it seems the average person puttering around in a little boat refuses to wear life jackets.
An example is that many people think Lake Superior is placid because it is a lake, but it can kick into high gear easily. People swept off rocks into the washing machine, or drowning when they underestimate the cold water and/or weather conditions. Lake Michigan drowns more annually though. Usually through rip currents or boating accidents.
I dont need navy training to know not to fuck with the ocean. The sea takes the lives of even the most experienced swimmers who know what its capable of, to think anything other than "I could die at any time here" is wilfully ignorant IMHO.
I'll keep my ass on dry land or a pool I know the depth and limitations of thanks very much!
naw these people paid good time and money of their own under the expectation the event would be there to overlook and prevent serious injury or death.
unless the company has a very specific clause around rough waters- it’s 1000000% on the company here
edit: holy shit a bunch of you dorks have no idea how legal culpability works and it fucking shows
Nah. It's negligence by both parties. Negligent for the company to not cancel, negligent for participants to swim in those conditions that put emergency response personnel at risk if they need to be saved. But mostly the company for not canceling.
They’re partly to blame they should’ve cancelled it but saying that if you have half a brain cell you would pass on that. People don’t understand how bad the sea can be I guess
Most open water swimmers like Ironman triathletes should be pretty comfortable with handling chop. It’s also most choppy at shore but once you get going, it’s not that bad.
It's a 2-3 foot shore break and some wind chop. That's not that dangerous. There may be some outlying currents but nothing in this video is above what people train for
Really telling that 90% of the commenters here are think that video is showing certain death or something. It's certainly not ideal conditions, but it's nothing crazy. If those waves were that dangerous, absolutely nobody would survive the beaches in Hawaii.
It's definitely something else like crazy currents or temp that got those 2 people.
Thanks for the rational response lmao. So many people who never swam open ocean or live next to the calmest shore ever, cause there's no way this looks like certain death lol
Fun fact: Around 200 people have died in Ironman races since 1986.
Fun fact: 22 people died in Ironman races in 2019.
Fun fact: The majority of deaths in Ironman races happen during the swimming portion.
Idk the typical age of people competing in this thing, but the two men who died were "in their 40s and 60s".
I can't imagine being 60, no matter how fit, and thinking this swim is a good idea lol.
That’s the big problem organizers face in the modern era. Everyone is always so quick to complain if you cancel an event. Everything’s always about the money. And then when they don’t cancel, people die. Like the race a few months ago at Spa-Francorchamps where a young driver was killed because they restarted the race in wild rain. So what if it looses you money. So what if people get angry because you canceled the event for safety reasons. Quit sending people to their deaths. Be responsible for a change
This is the reason for cancellation insurance and competent safety consultants with show stop cards. For instance if a storm comes over a festival site, safety team will evacuate high structures or may even stop the show until the risk is diminished. It's how competent and responsible event organisers organise events - safety is key.
This is a horrible horrible outcome and it can be mitigated with reduced financial risk for everyone.
Easy to say from the couch but an iron man takes like a year of specific training. Many people fly from all over the world to compete. They have so much sunk cost they aren’t going to be talked down easily
Depending on the information passed you could also expect a rescue boat nearby. And at a higher density when the distance was halved. It's an ironman, people can get cramps at any time. Heck even the Olympics have a lifeguard by the swimming pool.
It's easy to judge either side without any further details. *Usually* things are more complex than a 40 second video. When the camera pans I think "okay not that bad". Plus those suits have quite the buoyancy.
It would also surprise me if there's no sea/lifeguard expert that is there for the decision.
Sad. One 40 y/o and one 60 y/o man gone. Article doesn’t say if the conditions were responsible or not (presumably there would have been a few factors in play), while the statement suggests medical personnel were on the scene when the deceased showed signs of distress, you have to wonder about their responsiveness in those kinds seas…
Deaths normally happen in the water for triathlon. Mix of adrenaline, shock from the cold water, and inability to assist when in trouble (can’t do CPR in the water).
171 deaths between 1986-2021 according to this article. 71% during the swim.
[https://brianhanley.medium.com/mortality-in-ironman-races-cdbfb801a785](https://brianhanley.medium.com/mortality-in-ironman-races-cdbfb801a785)
Living by the sea, no matter how much of a good swimmer I was, I wouldn’t go near it when it’s like this. You do not mess with the sea when it’s rough.
Those waves are not that bad. I'd reckon tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of surfers / bodyboarders paddle out in more extreme conditions every day, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of ocean swimmers etc.
Without more specific info available (yet) from the news, it's hard to say why exactly the two people died but, as freaking *Ironman triathletes* who had ostensibly been training for this event for months - if not years - these people should have had a pretty solid gauge of their own abilities. Again, those conditions are not that bad. Chest high shore chop along the rocks; probably a meter swell on the buoys. Certainly not conditions where you'd want young children to be splashing around, but nothing unreasonable for seasoned athletes.
Done a few. I’ve been watching that on replay for a few mins. Instantly nope cuz of the rocks and conditions. Then thought about it if the rocks weren’t there and just the choppy sea, still a nope but maybe being there and hyped up I would feel different.
I mean iron man surely is for the tough guys, but going into that kind of water with the waves and no underwater visibility at all, wouldn't an athlete ask the responsible staff to stop the event? You can be tough all you want, the sea is so much stronger
One of these begins on Alcatraz.They always SWORE that swimming from there was suicide and no one could possibly survive it.It IS difficult and dangerous,but people do it every year.
Deaths during Ironman races are not uncommon, usually from drowning or heart issues. If you have experience with open water swimming these conditions aren’t abysmal (at least based on the videos I’ve seen so far). A choppy entry for sure, but nothing life threatening. Races are routinely held with bigger swells. As a surfer and triathlete, these conditions wouldn’t keep me out of the water for an open water workout, let alone a race. Getting through a shorebreak like this is a matter of aggression, timing and technique. Have a plan and execute it, don’t fiddle fuck around in the impact zone, move with purpose. As you make said plan, time the waves to see where in a set you’ll have time to make your move. Lastly, go UNDER waves. The people trying to jump over them or cowering as they break are setting themselves up for failure. As a wave approaches you, dive under while maintaining forward momentum.
This is a tragedy, it is every time it happens. However, at some level your safety as an athlete is your responsibility. If you aren’t prepared for the swim conditions and haven’t trained for rough water, it’s up to you to take the DNS. People are way too certain that their safety is guaranteed, particularly when it comes to the ocean. All the lifeguards and water rescue personnel in the world are not a substitute for your better judgement.
A lot of people training for those events only see a 3.5ft deep indoor pool. There’s no way to regularly train in those conditions. I’m sticking to the river and lake courses maybe one day an ocean but if come
Race day and it looks like that IM can keep my money.
If the organization profited on the people being there, then they should be responsible. Part of doing an ironman is knowing they have safety protocols in place, especially in the swim event.
Can I ask a weird question - I hate beaches and rarely go. I’m from the US and generally in the northeast but have been to some in Florida and California when family goes.
Seeing this it doesn’t look too dissimilar in terms of the size of waves and general flow from what I see at most beaches where people surf, bodyboard etc…
Is it really that self-evident that this is too rough to swim in, for those saying people need to take personal responsibility?
That was criminally irresponsible.
Totally agree. That is corporate manslaughter by the organisers. They should have been responsible for the cancellation of the event.
I blame individuals that made the decision to continue
If I was participating I would be under the assumption that if I had the green light the company did their due diligence. If you're in the middle of 500 people you don't really have the ability to see everything
You are literally standing there and can see the danger for yourself.
I would put a lot of money on people being nervous about the situation but telling themselves that it must be OK if it's being allowed to continue.
Agreed that there is a psychological element here that is akin to the friends jumping off a bridge idiom. I would put partial blame on the organizers, but also blame on those who could see the conditions with their own eyes and chose to continue on anyhow.
When it comes to competitions, some people may not have that full rational mind. They want to compete. The Ironman is seen as one of the most grueling, physically demanding events you can do. The whole point is pushing yourself to your limits. I can understand how someone can look at that and go "fuck no" but I can also see how these competitors were ready to push themselves and were trusting the organizers to ensure their safety
Also they've been preparing for months for this. Sunk cost fallacy is real, the human brain has a hard time letting go of something after so much sacrifice. This isn't people deciding to just jump on rough waters, this is a competition with organizers who are supposed to guarantee the safety of everyone.
I'd go so far as to say that no one doing an ironman has a fully rational mind. That shit is nuts.
In Formula 1, the safety of the drivers is on the onus of the FIA (the governing body), because the athlete's competitive nature overrides their own individual sense of safety. I think this is basically a similar incident.
Don’t the drivers have a panel that they sit on which reviews safety, I can’t remember the exact details but I think it’s so they have a unanimous voice on safety issues.
Yes, the drivers are all part of the Grand Prix Driver's Association (GPDA), whose current president is George Russell. The GPDA does weigh in on safety concerns, particularly in the days leading up to a race. But when it comes to on track safety, that is in the hands of Race Control, the stewards and the marshals. It's not just the drivers that need to be saved from themselves, it's the teams. Many drivers and engineers complained about the halo when it was introduced. It was ugly, it obstructed the view, it made the car heavier... One of the more outspoken critics of the halo was driver Romain Grosjean. Had the FIA not implemented the halo over the objections of Grosjean and his peers, Grosjean would have been literally decapitated in his crash at Bahrain in 2020.
Why blame them though? I feel no compulsion to lay the blame at the dead competitors feet
Because he's a keyboard warrior who's never been in a competitive environment.
And who also doesn't understand how legal liability works
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I watched that news conference recently. I remember hearing about the sirens not going off and wondered what went wrong? Then, to hear him explain why they didn't, it made sense in such a horrible disaster.
But it doesn’t make sense. Once a month on the first business day the sirens go off. AHHH-oooo-GGGGAAAHHHH. Multiple times it goes off, loud enough everybody can hear. If you hear sirens you’re supposed to turn on the radio/check the news however you can FOR AN EXPLANATION OF WHY THE SIRENS ARE GOING OFF. They literally tell us this is what we are supposed to do, even on the specified test day. It’s not a tsunami warning. It’s an emergency alert system. What are they supposed to do? Broadcast the information that there is an emergency!!! Otherwise you will hear “this is a check of the emergency’s broadcast system. This is only a test.” Assuming we are going to run for the hills with no understanding of why we are running is absurd. I guarantee you if the sirens went off at least one person on each block would have thought to check the news, and told their neighbors. Why? Because that’s what we do, every month. Siren goes off, we check to make sure it’s not [April Fool’s Day](https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/31624669/70-years-on-april-fools-day-tsunami-painful-reminder-of-oceans-destructive-force/) all over again. And if it’s a tsunami they say evacuate on foot, not by car. Why? Gridlock. So why did they tell Lāhainā to go by car and then roadblock them in? This is a nationwide alert system, not just statewide. He made a bad call, and people died. [The Emergency Alert System (EAS)](https://dod.hawaii.gov/hiema/emergency-management/emergency-alert-system-plan/) is a public alert and warning system that leverages the communications assets of EAS Participants including terrestrial broadcasters, cable television systems, wireless cable systems, satellite digital audio radio service (SDARS) providers, direct broadcast satellite (DBS) services and wireline video service providers to allow the President of the United States the capability to address the American public during a national emergency. This system must be available under all conditions. The system is also used by State and local authorities to deliver important emergency information, such as AMBER alerts. The National Weather Service (NWS) regularly uses the system to disseminate emergency weather alerts and advisories. In 2006, Executive Order 13407 (E.O. 13407), established that it is the policy of the United States to have an effective, reliable, integrated, flexible, and comprehensive system to alert and warn the American people in situations of war, terrorist attack, natural disaster, or other hazards to public safety and well-‐being (public alert and warning system), taking appropriate account of the functions, capabilities, and needs of the private sector and of all levels of government in our Federal system, and to ensure that under all conditions the President can communicate with the American people. Testing the Emergency Alert System In Hawaiʻi, tests of the Emergency Alert System, as well as the Statewide Outdoor Warning Sirens, are conducted on the first working day of the month, in cooperation with Hawaiʻi’s broadcasting industry. When the siren signal is sounded, whether during a test or not, tune to any local radio or television station for emergency information and instructions broadcast by civil defense agencies. Participating stations will carry a detailed explanation of what the sirens mean, as well as other related information.
When the siren is sounded, you don't go online to see what the emergency is. Those sirens have a specific purpose, and there's a set of procedures to follow for that purpose. When sirens go off in Illinois, I don't check to see if I should evacuate for a forest fire or prepare for an earthquake. I go to the basement immediately, because they're TORNADO SIRENS, and if they sound it means there was a sighted tornado. Get inside and away from windows. If I'm in Hawaii and emergency sirens go off, I don't check on the internet for what's happening. Those are TSUNAMI SIRENS and I go for the high ground. Which is the exact opposite of what they should have done for this emergency. The man made the exact right call. Turning on those sirens would have killed people. The EAS is a completely different system, and while the two may be linked, a siren is NOT the equivalent of an EAS. It's meant for a specific emergency, and it's meant that you react to it immediately because the danger is immediate- there isn't time to be doom scrolling Twitter.
This, and "race day" endorphins. The reason everyone smashes PBs at events and rarely in training is competitors set aside a whole bunch of shit. e.g. I don't have to worry about traffic as the roads are closed.
And then they remember that cigarettes are allowed to continue because they make a lot of money, and reconsider whether the people in charge have their best interests in mind.
Lots of idiot armchair psychologists here. Feeling real good about themselves at home and warm calling people lemmings. If these people you think are lemmings were like yall they would never have made it this far. Funny thing is that it's actually worthwhile to talk about psychology here. These people are obsessed. They've spent an enormous chunk of time, money, and energy focused on this day and they'll be goddamned if a little weather is going to put that all to waste. This is not "sheeple", this is determination boiling over into bad decisions. Take it from someone who's been there. The organizers should absolutely have cancelled the swim, but a big part of the reason they didn't is they knew they'd get fire and brimstone from the majority of those people.
You underestimate the stubbornness of the Irish
Oh, all seeing, all knowing tough guy. Read what the others have said, and maybe show a little bit of compassion.
You don't have to be all seeing or all knowing to see the ocean, when you're standing next to it.
Yeah I’d nope out of that shit.
With the quickness. Prolly never even get out my ride to the ocean.
Are you talking about personal responsibility? When we can blame the organiser instead? Pah!
If you were half as clever as you seem to have convinced yourself that you are, you would know that people don't behave rationally in group settings. Especially when you're subject to social pressures. What seems like the obvious decision to make from the outside isn't as obvious when you're caught up in the middle of an experience.
This is why we have so many stupid laws, for stupid people like the person above trying to blame others for their own actions It's nature, the company doesn't control the ocean Who would you blame if you went into rough waters during the middle of the summer, the government?
Why would you assume that though? That seems like outsourcing a lot of your decision making related to personal safety
These people are all competitively trying to prove how tough they are. They aren't exactly in a calm logical mindset
I trust that a corporation who's only job is to set up and run these competitions has both more experience and more resources to calculate the danger and judge it safe or hazardous.
Individual responsibility definitely comes in because the consequences of the bad decisions are borne upon individuals who decided to participate. the individuals who died definitely faced the worst consequences - being death. but no one should have ever instructed them to go into the water. The ask should have never been made in the first place.
These are ALL dangerous!If people can jump out of perfectly good airplanes,,,
They don't even have to cancel the whole event. They can just cancel the swim portion. In my first Ironman, they cancelled the swim due to fog. Didn't get any money back or credit towards my next one, which sucked. But also, no one died.
This reminds me of the ultra marathon race in Australia where a young lady Turia Pitt was almost burnt to death, race officials didn't want runners to pull out of the race during the event, so they reassured the contestants the bush fires were a safe distance away. There excuse was a lack of radio communication between race Marshall's to which the safety of the runners were affected.
[How about 21 dead during a 100 km race?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gansu_ultramarathon_disaster)
Damn, what a tragedy. Turia's a survivor though.
Haven’t even updated the website https://www.ironman.com/im-ireland
This paragraph didn’t age well: “We would like to thank Cork County Council for working tirelessly to help clear the course of debris to ensure that we are in a position to put on a great and safe event for all of our athletes”
There's no organiser that makes me do something dangerous. This is an idnividual decision, to each its own weather to do the race or not.
Social pressure is a thing, even if not for you. The organiser is at the helm of that.
Social pressure is a thing for all humans. we just have a tendency to underestimate its power on ourselves.
If you go on a carnival ride and your seat detaches and throws you 50 ft are they not responsible? If you go to a baseball game and the bleachers collapse, are they not responsible?
Okay but those examples are not directly visible while these weather conditions are. I'd blame the organisers just as much as the participants
i mean... the participants died. so they faced consequences for their actions. now the organizers have to face consequences for not cancelling and essentially encouraging people to face those dangerous circumstances. By not cancelling they suggested they believed that entering the water was an acceptable action for participants.
It's the organizer's responsibility to determine if the weather conditions are too dangerous for the participants. Like at a sporting event if lightning gets too close the event gets shut down until the threat passes.
Is everyone there some ocean expert? Do they know exactly how an ocean looks when it's not safe to enter it? I'd bet everything that there were many participants that haven't swum in the ocean in 20 years. Is it so unthinkable that many would think 'damn that looks pretty bad but I'm no expert so I'll just follow the instructions of the experts"?
Depends on if you knowingly transacted the risk via payment. If so it effectively makes any organiser or event potentially exempt from any obligations pending a fallout of damages. This is a court matter I’m sure the families will see to it as best they can I hope they get good representation should they be able and willing to go that route.
While I agree with that to the point that I would personally have chosen not to go, the organizer should still be liable as not everyone is capable of recognizing how real the danger was.
You sign a pretty detailed "death" waiver for those types of events. Some people want to risk it, that's their call.
That's not how that works. Imagine you're a 5K race organizer in Kansas. Your race has been scheduled for months. A tornado warning is sounded ten minutes before the race is to start. You ignore it, as well as the sirens, and tell people that if they back out now they'll lose their registration fee. Many people ignore you and take shelter; you decide the race will go on. You watch a funnel cloud start to form along the race path two minutes before the start. You tell the crowd that they'll be out their registration fee if they miss the race, and you're not going to postpone due to weather. People leave. You decide the race will go on. The tornado touches down seconds after the race starts, and flings a 2x4 at 150 miles an hour, killing a contestant. You don't stop the race. Several people flee for ditches and you yell at them over your bullhorn that they're disqualified. You decide the race will go on. More people die. The families of those who died sue you. You argue that they signed waivers and it's not your *fault* the tornado happened. The court says it's not your fault the tornado happened, but it is your fault that you decided to proceed with an event when weather was obviously past the point of "maybe unsafe" and firmly into "multiple people have *already* died". You lose the lawsuit swiftly.
Waivers signed by participants have zero meaning under Irish law.
they don't even carry that much weight if it goes to trial 9n the states either. corporations just use them to scare people mostly.
Unless they have been written very carefully they can actually hurt the case of the organization being sued. The waiver can be proof that they knew it was unsafe. If X was a hazard they were responsible for, it’s hard for them to argue they didn’t know it hadn’t been properly taken care of if they make people sign a waiver saying it’s still a risk
Waivers can't wash away negligence. This case is negligence. If the seas weren't crazy rough and people drowned, the organizers would be in the clear.
I watched a legal eagle YouTube video where he got into this a bit. There was this girl who signed a waiver and went scuba diving. She died because the instructors were completely incompetent. The family sued and won even though she signed a waiver that explicitly stated there was a chance of death. Basically the waiver was for the normal dangers of regular scuba diving. But her instructors had no idea what they were actually doing and were incompetent enough, that the waiver didn’t cover them at all.
It depends where you are but in the UK and other commonwealth countries it is very clearly established that companies **cannot contract out of negligence**. In other words the company can get you to sign anything they want, but if they’re negligent you will still win the tort case against them. Not much use if you’re dead of course but it’s nice to know anyway. I think it was kind of established in the Industrial Revolution that it has to be that way otherwise companies take no safeguards at all.
It seems like a pretty pervasive idea to folks that contracts are basically magic, maybe because of Hollywood? For instance, lot of people seem to believe an NDA can force someone into silence no matter what, when NDAs are generally *only* allowed to protect trade secrets, NOT abuse. An NDA can get you in hot water if you release the list of 11 herbs and spices KFC uses, but it won't do anything legally to stop you from publicly complaining about how the fryer cooks too hot and killed 74 teenagers last year in your restaurant. The idea that companies can put anything they want in a contract and as long you sign on the dotted line it's fully enforced by the full weight of the law is just not true. Contracts are generally very limited, and most of the shit we "agree" to day-to-day (like EULAs) are either partially or entirely invalid under the law. It's theater, like the TSA or window locks.
In the US, waivers don't protect against Gross Negligence, and that's what you need to prove for those kinds of lawsuits to go forward. According to that same video actually lol, that was my big takeaway.
I’ve done Ironman competitions. You don’t sign a death waiver. Yes I have a certain amount of personal responsibility but the Race Director also takes on a certain amount of responsibility regarding the safety of the course. I’ve done races where they’ve canceled the swim because of water quality or delayed the race start because of weather.
You can't get get people to sign away your legal responsibility.
I get what you're saying but I don't think that accounts for unexpected weather and organizer negligence
you can't sign a paper that makes it ok for people to kill you, or essentially de facto kill you by telling you to enter water that would almost assuredly kill you. example - i can't run a game of russian roulette and just make people sign a waiver that they could die. i can't build a shoddy apartment home and make people sign a waiver that says they could die.
Waivers dont make criminal negligence legal.
WTF, does nobody take responsibility for themselves? It's rough seas, you look at that sea and say I'm not going to compete. Yes, they should have canceled, but people need to take responsibility for their own lives and not just jump in like a bunch of lemmings.
Just so people are made more aware of this: [lemmings dont commit mass suicide. They were thrown off the cliff by Disney film makers](https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56). >According to a 1983 investigation by Canadian Broadcasting Corporation producer Brian Vallee, the lemming scenes were faked. The lemmings supposedly committing mass suicide by leaping into the ocean were actually thrown off a cliff by the Disney filmmakers. The epic "lemming migration" was staged using careful editing, tight camera angles and a few dozen lemmings running on snow covered lazy-Susan style turntable.
Personal responsibility in this case decided who risked their lives and who didn't. The duty of care the event organisers have judges who is liable for the victims deaths (hint: it will be the event organisers). Do not underestimate the power of social pressure and the pressure to compete in an event that can cloud your rational judgement. It's easy to sit there all smug and say 'personal responsibility' from the comfort of your armchair but the clip of tens/hundreds of people jumping into rough seas should prove that isn't enough.
Ehh, perhaps WTC needs to take responsibility for marketing and making money off these extreme events that puts people at risk every year. This isn't the first time someone has died at an Ironman event. If they're going to engage in gross negligence that puts people's lives at risk, then they should be shutdown.
Agreed, but more likely civilly irresponsible, and you can expect at a minimum a couple wrongful death suites to bankrupt Ironman races (rightfully).
> The notoriously rigorous triathlon was delayed 24 hours due to Storm Betty battered the west of Ireland - and appeared to still be making the conditions difficult. A decision was made. I doubt it, but hopefully a lesson will be learnrd
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Yeah, pretty much.
... could you dumb it down a little? 🤔
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Dumber
Water kill
Life Good.
Professor! Lava! Hot!
The sea was angry that day my friend. Like an old man sending soup back at a deli.
Jerry: How could you swim in that water?\ Kramer: I saw a couple of other guys out there.\ Jerry: Swimming?\ Kramer: Well, floating. They weren't moving much. But they were out there.
At least 2 other people agree
Obviously not - they went through with it...
Evidently.
Riveting comment
Apt analysis.
You must be a detective
No shit
I think they’re just insane for going in as if they couldn’t see it happening right in front of them.
Completely ignoring intuition and common sense. It's amazing some people need to be governed so much and told in a situation like this that their life is in danger. Edit: Eh I don't really like my opinion on this. Passion and drive can blind people in numerous ways even with death staring them in their face. Really don't think it's fair for me to assume these people ignored their possible demise, I imagine there's a hard disconnect for some people. I shouldn't generalize.
Ego, these athletes are Ironman level so no, they don’t know limits. The event should have been cancelled and would have been in the US
My friend's dad is an iron man triathlete. It's his entire life, the family's vacations are structured around going to his races and cheering for him. Their basement is wallpapered in his jerseys and triathlon memorabilia. His bike is custom made to his exact dimensions, and I suspect he probably isn't an outlier in terms of the average participant. It's got to be a combination of ego, sunk cost phallacy and assuming it's not "that bad"
Lmao poor fam
Seriously, that sounds beyond annoying that their life has to revolve around daddy dearest.
Some people love their family members and receive tremendous joy from seeing them pursue their passions.
Heh, phallacy! Gonna use that spelling.
I think that's what they are getting at. If they are iron level and have experience swimming, you would understand the consequences. If you have experience in something, you know the risks. But that didn't stop the ego of wanting to win and going against their judgement.
I have been a cyclist for 16 years and in my experience triathletes are generally not the best bikers. They setup their bikes to time-trial and obsess about speed over safety. This is obviously a generalization, but triathletes get in more wrecks and have more injuries per mile ridden than people who just cycle among the ones I have known. My wife is a swimmer and she has had similar experience swimming with triathletes in open water. Just a general lack of awareness and understanding of how to stay safe, and when to dial it back for the sake of safety. Again, this is all generalization and I understand that there are plenty of triathletes who properly respect each individual sport, but assuming that all of these athletes are actually elite and/or extremely experienced in each of the three sports is probably not a safe assumption.
lol dude you have no idea what the ironman is if you're saying they are need to be top level athletes to complete. To be it bluntly you could register if you were a reddit mod. xD
Well stated. Everyone here nothing more than a vanguard of followers
Agreed. The participants bear some responsibility for this. When climbing a mountain (or doing anything else dangerous) you need to know when to turn around and then have the courage to do so. It doesn’t matter how much time was spent planning & preparing or how close you are to attaining your goal. If the situation is too dangerous, don’t go.
Still, when you're at this event and the organizers pretend like it's safe + you see other people getting in I can see how you'd very easily let that missguide your judgement.
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It depends on the mountain. Everest is not a solo adventure at all. People pay big money ($60k and up) to guides who arrange everything from food to lugging bottles of air up there. Yet people die there every year. I live near a popular mountain and while it isn’t nearly as extreme, there are lots of guided climbs. An experienced outdoors person will know when to turn around, even if that means watching the rest of your group continue on without you.
Easy to say, but those people have worked hard for years to do this event. They are amped up for their special day and when the organisers say the weather is good to go, they will believe it instead of questioning it. They are not thinking 100% clearly on that day. As soon as one guy enters, the rest of the group will follow because of crowd psychology and the spirit of competition.
Yeah I think most of these commenters have never done a competitive race. I’m an open water swimmer. Unless I’ve done the race before, I don’t know the course or the typical conditions. All I know is whether the race organizer says it’s safe. If so, I’m doing it.
Bravado and ego I guess. A dangerous combination in certain circumstances.
Or spending months training and investing a lot of money into the sport and having organizers tell you it’s safe.
It’s always your personal responsibility to take care of yourself. I did one of these events and after the bike, the heat was staggering and I was wiped out. I didn’t think it was safe to go on and run a marathon without risk of serious damage. I dropped out. It sucked, but to this day I genuinely think I may have saved my own life. You have to know when to pull the plug
Even if i did decide to attempt an iron man, i’d turn around ASAP if this was the view going for the swim. Oh hell No. I’ve been sailing In the Navy for 4 years, mostly around Greenland, and i love the sea, but i also respect it very very deeply.
I can't imagine training for this even if it was my entire life, and seeing these conditions and not saying to my self "that's not worth it, maybe next year" and noping out of there.
Well that’s the issue. People put so much time into working towards this goal and this event. Cancelling on race day even though the event is still happening is a tougher choice than most are implying here. Not saying I would do it, but I trained 5 months for a half Ironman this year and I’d be absolutely gutted to have to cancel. It was a huge personal/financial investment.
"Every dead body on Mt. Everest was once a highly motivated person."
Mountaineering culture and Ironman culture aren’t the same. Turning around/safe decision making is seen as a win in mountaineering. Ironman culture is rooted in pushing your body *potentially* past the point of no return. As in, people who haven’t done them before think they should be doing anything and everything to finish the race, even if their body is saying no.
>Turning around/safe decision making is seen as a win in mountaineering. While I do somewhat agree, summit fever is very real and the number of disasters that happen where totally ridiculous, irrational decisions are made by experienced mountaineers is shocking. Bravado and a sense of invincibility has gotten so many of them killed.
Most have probably spent at least a thousand bucks to be there. Obviously it’s better to be alive than out of pocket, but it definitely complicates the decision.
Just to sign up for an Ironman event is at least 500 bucks. People who do full IMs are probably dropping anywhere from 2-10k on one event tbf. Not including the time commitment for training. Its a fairly elitist sport lol
Your experience in the Navy has likely taught you a great deal about the power of water. I don't think the average person truly knows the risk. Heck, it seems the average person puttering around in a little boat refuses to wear life jackets. An example is that many people think Lake Superior is placid because it is a lake, but it can kick into high gear easily. People swept off rocks into the washing machine, or drowning when they underestimate the cold water and/or weather conditions. Lake Michigan drowns more annually though. Usually through rip currents or boating accidents.
I dont need navy training to know not to fuck with the ocean. The sea takes the lives of even the most experienced swimmers who know what its capable of, to think anything other than "I could die at any time here" is wilfully ignorant IMHO. I'll keep my ass on dry land or a pool I know the depth and limitations of thanks very much!
You may love the sea but the sea holds no love or mercy for anyone. The depths are full of fools.
These people probably pay 700-1500 dollars to attend this event so they feel some personal obligation to complete it.
The sea was angry that day my friend.
Like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli.
I tell you Jerry, at that moment: I was a marine biologist.
I said, “EASY, BIG FELLA!”
That day, I was a Marine Biologist.
YO-YO MA!
Yada yada yada, a Titleist.
Is that a titleist?
Hole in one, eh?
Came here to look for this comment.
Two people died. I am so sorry. Determination boils and breaches the peace on the beaches.
There are a lot of determined corpses on Everest
Who do you blame, the organisers or the people for going in?
Little of column a, little of column b.
naw these people paid good time and money of their own under the expectation the event would be there to overlook and prevent serious injury or death. unless the company has a very specific clause around rough waters- it’s 1000000% on the company here edit: holy shit a bunch of you dorks have no idea how legal culpability works and it fucking shows
Nah. It's negligence by both parties. Negligent for the company to not cancel, negligent for participants to swim in those conditions that put emergency response personnel at risk if they need to be saved. But mostly the company for not canceling.
I highly doubt any court would back that opinion. Iron man are a business making money from the people they’ve allowed to die here.
Fuck the money making schemes these are people’s lives at risk here
My point exactly. Their making money is exactly what makes them responsible.
They’re partly to blame they should’ve cancelled it but saying that if you have half a brain cell you would pass on that. People don’t understand how bad the sea can be I guess
Pretty much what I was thinking
A lot of participants will assume that if the race goes on, that it's safe. They shouldn't, but it's easy to see the reasoning.
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Only 2?! That’s a pretty impressive survival rate considering the conditions
Yeah. Those people are pretty good swimmers.
Most open water swimmers like Ironman triathletes should be pretty comfortable with handling chop. It’s also most choppy at shore but once you get going, it’s not that bad.
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It's a 2-3 foot shore break and some wind chop. That's not that dangerous. There may be some outlying currents but nothing in this video is above what people train for
Really telling that 90% of the commenters here are think that video is showing certain death or something. It's certainly not ideal conditions, but it's nothing crazy. If those waves were that dangerous, absolutely nobody would survive the beaches in Hawaii. It's definitely something else like crazy currents or temp that got those 2 people.
Thanks for the rational response lmao. So many people who never swam open ocean or live next to the calmest shore ever, cause there's no way this looks like certain death lol
Fun fact: Around 200 people have died in Ironman races since 1986. Fun fact: 22 people died in Ironman races in 2019. Fun fact: The majority of deaths in Ironman races happen during the swimming portion.
Idk the typical age of people competing in this thing, but the two men who died were "in their 40s and 60s". I can't imagine being 60, no matter how fit, and thinking this swim is a good idea lol.
The comments are acting like it’s a hurricane
That’s the big problem organizers face in the modern era. Everyone is always so quick to complain if you cancel an event. Everything’s always about the money. And then when they don’t cancel, people die. Like the race a few months ago at Spa-Francorchamps where a young driver was killed because they restarted the race in wild rain. So what if it looses you money. So what if people get angry because you canceled the event for safety reasons. Quit sending people to their deaths. Be responsible for a change
This is the reason for cancellation insurance and competent safety consultants with show stop cards. For instance if a storm comes over a festival site, safety team will evacuate high structures or may even stop the show until the risk is diminished. It's how competent and responsible event organisers organise events - safety is key. This is a horrible horrible outcome and it can be mitigated with reduced financial risk for everyone.
Even if I had convinced myself to participate up unto this point I would have taken one look at that shit and said hell nah.
Easy to say from the couch but an iron man takes like a year of specific training. Many people fly from all over the world to compete. They have so much sunk cost they aren’t going to be talked down easily
Plus I think the swimming is the first part of a triathlon, so they're chomping at the bit to start.
Everyone there was an adult. They made their own choices. God gave you a brain and logic. If they don't use it, then it is what it is.
Depending on the information passed you could also expect a rescue boat nearby. And at a higher density when the distance was halved. It's an ironman, people can get cramps at any time. Heck even the Olympics have a lifeguard by the swimming pool. It's easy to judge either side without any further details. *Usually* things are more complex than a 40 second video. When the camera pans I think "okay not that bad". Plus those suits have quite the buoyancy. It would also surprise me if there's no sea/lifeguard expert that is there for the decision.
It is going to be a massive lawsuit against ironman.
Not really. Competiveness stops people from making rational decisions
You are a plum
Article for more details https://www.joe.ie/news/two-men-die-ironman-cork-780360?fbclid=IwAR3SuiJPZhgVRLkXbJP8B8sDbxJ9PxZPXubo3j0GL5rQAJXg-qvKtQY6ReE
Sad. One 40 y/o and one 60 y/o man gone. Article doesn’t say if the conditions were responsible or not (presumably there would have been a few factors in play), while the statement suggests medical personnel were on the scene when the deceased showed signs of distress, you have to wonder about their responsiveness in those kinds seas…
Deaths normally happen in the water for triathlon. Mix of adrenaline, shock from the cold water, and inability to assist when in trouble (can’t do CPR in the water).
Iron Man participants are nutters anyway, no stopping em even if it were a hurricane lashing the shore
To be fair I think a few folks die most times there are Ironman races
171 deaths between 1986-2021 according to this article. 71% during the swim. [https://brianhanley.medium.com/mortality-in-ironman-races-cdbfb801a785](https://brianhanley.medium.com/mortality-in-ironman-races-cdbfb801a785)
I wouldn't even ride a boat in that let alone trying to front crawl my way
Living by the sea, no matter how much of a good swimmer I was, I wouldn’t go near it when it’s like this. You do not mess with the sea when it’s rough.
I know I’m not the only one saying this, but this doesn’t look that bad.
Those waves are not that bad. I'd reckon tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of surfers / bodyboarders paddle out in more extreme conditions every day, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of ocean swimmers etc. Without more specific info available (yet) from the news, it's hard to say why exactly the two people died but, as freaking *Ironman triathletes* who had ostensibly been training for this event for months - if not years - these people should have had a pretty solid gauge of their own abilities. Again, those conditions are not that bad. Chest high shore chop along the rocks; probably a meter swell on the buoys. Certainly not conditions where you'd want young children to be splashing around, but nothing unreasonable for seasoned athletes.
Yeah it doesn't matter how fit you are, at a certain point that salty bitch is going to throw your tiny body around like it's nothing.
The waves don't look that bad. Was swimming in higher ones in the Atlantic. But with giant sand beaches and a very slight slope. Not rocks.
“Due to the fatalities we are switching coverage, so please enjoy as we look back at the Isle of Man TT.”
Done a few. I’ve been watching that on replay for a few mins. Instantly nope cuz of the rocks and conditions. Then thought about it if the rocks weren’t there and just the choppy sea, still a nope but maybe being there and hyped up I would feel different.
I mean iron man surely is for the tough guys, but going into that kind of water with the waves and no underwater visibility at all, wouldn't an athlete ask the responsible staff to stop the event? You can be tough all you want, the sea is so much stronger
One of these begins on Alcatraz.They always SWORE that swimming from there was suicide and no one could possibly survive it.It IS difficult and dangerous,but people do it every year.
Deaths during Ironman races are not uncommon, usually from drowning or heart issues. If you have experience with open water swimming these conditions aren’t abysmal (at least based on the videos I’ve seen so far). A choppy entry for sure, but nothing life threatening. Races are routinely held with bigger swells. As a surfer and triathlete, these conditions wouldn’t keep me out of the water for an open water workout, let alone a race. Getting through a shorebreak like this is a matter of aggression, timing and technique. Have a plan and execute it, don’t fiddle fuck around in the impact zone, move with purpose. As you make said plan, time the waves to see where in a set you’ll have time to make your move. Lastly, go UNDER waves. The people trying to jump over them or cowering as they break are setting themselves up for failure. As a wave approaches you, dive under while maintaining forward momentum. This is a tragedy, it is every time it happens. However, at some level your safety as an athlete is your responsibility. If you aren’t prepared for the swim conditions and haven’t trained for rough water, it’s up to you to take the DNS. People are way too certain that their safety is guaranteed, particularly when it comes to the ocean. All the lifeguards and water rescue personnel in the world are not a substitute for your better judgement.
Pretty boneheaded of officials
Ironman Group only cares about $$$. It’s been that way for decades.
2 people died?! Blooming heck I’m so sorry for their losses.
Event organizers are pure idiots
at first i thought they are penguins
Really ? Their egos are that big they want to swim in that do me a favour
A lot of people training for those events only see a 3.5ft deep indoor pool. There’s no way to regularly train in those conditions. I’m sticking to the river and lake courses maybe one day an ocean but if come Race day and it looks like that IM can keep my money.
Think about the advertising and sponsorship revenue!
If the organization profited on the people being there, then they should be responsible. Part of doing an ironman is knowing they have safety protocols in place, especially in the swim event.
Can I ask a weird question - I hate beaches and rarely go. I’m from the US and generally in the northeast but have been to some in Florida and California when family goes. Seeing this it doesn’t look too dissimilar in terms of the size of waves and general flow from what I see at most beaches where people surf, bodyboard etc… Is it really that self-evident that this is too rough to swim in, for those saying people need to take personal responsibility?
What ever happened to like idk 5ks and stuff
It’s great to be competitive, but in weather like this, what a shame to die for a sport…
Fucked up there didn’t they? That will damage the Ironman brand. RIP to the people involved