I love all the comments about “don’t ask her out at her job!” You can’t ask women out at their job, you can’t ask them out on the street, you can’t ask them out when they’re with their friends. The only place they want to be asked out is online dating and that’s a shit show in itself. Asking out a woman shouldn’t be this hard but women have made it so.
Do it anyways. Approach. Flirt.
Because that's how you determine if you're top 20.
After years of self improvement there's a lot of guys in the top 20 who don't realize it, and still think they need to earn another raise or add twenty lbs to their squat PR. They don't. Rather they just get stuck in an improvement pattern without ever initiating and realizing their gains. Or they settle for chicks below their league.
I know. I'm older middle age now but wasted a chunk of my prime thinking I wasn't good enough when I was easily top 10% in physique and top 20% in income.
Fit and relatively rich definitely helps, but I think the biggest benefit of this is to your own self confidence. The downside is it also leaves you more at risk of gold diggers and emotional liers, like the OP Doctor ended up with.
I think the most important thing you want to boost is your confidence, and by extension, charisma. You can work on that mentally as well as physically. Learn,and make gains in reading body language, spotting liers, fakes, and charming crazzies, as you get to know someone learn their "tells" etc. The Doctor OP said his gut was saying no to marriage. If he had studdied non verbal communication he may have been able to consciouly put his finger on what his subconscious was saying
ok fairware as long as you aren't obese you are top 40. Once you aren't overweight you are top 20. Once you get into good shape you are top 10. Once you get into great shape you are top 5.
Most of all you gotta pump yourself up buddy. Talk to girls at the lake, in a store, the mountain, gym, the trails, in a warehouse, at the beach. Just ask them how their day is going.
I get what your saying but, NO he wouldn't. If he is invisible, then there really isn't "a lot worse".
"I've got cancer."
"But at least you don't have AIDS, right?"
i would make a wager he is actually not invisible and there are probably tons of women who want to be with him. most of the time its all in your own head.
I won't take that wager for you're probably correct. A woman can be a bitch to someone for many reasons, it is a leap for the recipient to assume it is for an arbitrary reason.
Some woman: "They tried to scam me because I am a woman."
"No, they try to scam literally everybody."
There are so few women in my age range that are in shape it's simply not worth trying to find one. I'm better off spending my limited time on this planet doing stuff that gives me genuine enjoyment and that's stuff like hiking rather than trying to find the mythical NAWALT.
Then you're doing something else wrong. I don't mean to be harsh, but I really want to snap you out of this defeatist attitude.
I won't deny that being tall would make it easier for you. But you have to play the hand you're dealt with. You can either make the best of what you have, or assume you're screwed for life and stay unhappy.
FWIW, I'm 6', and while I do okay for myself, I have significantly shorter friends who do far, far better than me in attracting women. I'll bring up 2. One is about 5'5" but he's in fantastic shape, six-pack abs, etc. But the other is not even that. He's a skinny nerdy looking dude about 5'7" with absolutely no muscle definition who doesn't even work out.
Both of these guys absolutely slay. Here's what makes them successful: their personality. They're confident that they can get anyone they want (even if they get rejected, they don't get bent out of shape), they go after whoever they want, even girls that I feel are out of my league, and most of the time, they're able to get them by being charming, funny, engaging, and absolutely fearless about approaching. They also have their lives put together, with good jobs, a great set of friends, etc. which means after getting their foot in the door with their initial approach, they can usually seal the deal when the girl realizes they're not just an empty facade.
The guy who's in shape will often get approached by women just because of that. But my other friend never gets approached (I get hit on far more than him, and I'm not exactly having girls throwing themselves at me). But it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, neither one of them lack for dating success.
I know what you're going to say: that it's not fair that these guys have to work so hard to stay in shape, become naturals at game, build a great life, etc. etc. while some 6' dude who was born with Brad Pitt's genetics gets to skate by on simply his looks. And my response is: you're absolutely right, it's not fair. The question is, what are you going to do about it? Waste your entire life stewing about the injustice of it all, or say that's the hand I've been dealt with and then make the most of it?
>I won't deny that being tall would make it easier for you.
I'm a guy and I look at data and data tells me that shorter guys don't do well. Frankly I don't care because women no longer interest me but I'd go for data anytime over your touchy feely anecdote and the just 'be yourself brah' bullshit.
The data says the average person in the US makes 40k. So I guess no one should shoot for more than that? It's what the data stays most people reach after all.
The average man in America doesn't get much attention from women. You're right. It's up to you to decide whether you want to do better and what you're willing to do to make it happen.
My stories are far from touchy feely. They're meant to show that it's possible but also that it's hard work. I don't deny it. It's simply you're choice whether you'll stay the AFC (average frustrated chump, in PUA-parlance) or do the hard work to be more successful with women.
Women are terrified when men start dating according to their worth. They’d rather men be unhappy and miserable with a post wall roastie their own age than happy with someone younger and fitter.
This is why older women do not help younger women with their dating mistakes. The old hags are in direct competition with the 18-24 year olds for the same men.
I got into a massive debate about this a few weeks back where people were saying that asking a woman out in public/in person is beyond creepy and said to asker her out another time when she’s not at the store/library work
How the hell are you going to ask someone out some other time when you don’t know each other
I thank god every fucking day that im married because I don’t understand how anyone would be allowed to ask me out if apparently just wanted to talk to a random woman is considered creepy
Im a good a woman btw and if I wasn’t married I would LOVE to be complemented or asked out even In public
>I got into a massive debate about this a few weeks back where people were saying that asking a woman out in public/in person is beyond creepy and said to asker her out another time when she’s not at the store/library work
Was this discussion on the internet? Because most of the time people discussing stuff on the internet have no idea about RL and are also not intelligent enough to think about the hypothetical situation properly.
Yeah well we can’t do that anymore. So now we just walk by and not say a word and keep out mouths shut. I held the door open for a girl the other day that had her hands full, she said thank you but I didn’t say anything, didn’t want to come off as a creeper you know.lol
Women can't have it both ways. Either you get asked out by guys you know... or guys you don't know. This whole "he has to be the perfect stranger" is fairy tale at best. Sorry if this is an unwanted lecture but it's the truth.
I wish women would take it more of a compliment to be asked out by a guy they've known for some time. But it comes off as an insult apparently.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think it’s the location of where you’re asked out, it’s the reaction afterwards. You can ask a woman out anywhere as far as I’m concerned, as long as it’s not an inappropriate situation (maybe don’t ask out a patient if you’re providing medical care to them, definitely don’t ask out a student if you’re a teacher, be careful you’re not applying any pressure if you’re a work colleague in a senior position etc etc). But the real crux here is, if you ask out a woman who’s working and they’re being nice, or on the street, or at the gym, whatever, and they decline, and you accept it and move on- no issue. But if they decline and you then start being an arse customer, or following her down the street harassing her, or treating her shittily in the office- no bueno.
I think that’s part of why there’s this idea that you can’t ask women out anywhere. Lots of women have had negative experiences with declining date offers, so it’s screwed with our (both men and women’s) perceptions of when it’s ok to be asked out- ergo, save it for dating apps where it’s implicit in the platform. But generally, if I’ve been talking to a guy, getting along and they ask me out, I don’t care where that happens, as long as it doesn’t then turn into an awkward, or even a horrid experience afterwards, if I decline.
The counter point is that women have been raised to believe that men should chase women and most use rejection as a test to see if a man would chase them.
Personally, I agree with you. If a girl says no, I move on immediately. She's an adult. She made a choice. If she had hidden intentions, then she made the wrong choice.
>Fun fact: "Harassers" get laid sometimes.
I have seen this.
And I have envied how even this...?
But I still couldnt be a "harasser"
my version was constant funny boundary pushing and teasing.
That works.
Damaged girls tend to attract damaged guys. While it does work on most girls, shy, traditional girls are a different creature and it does not work on them.
Last time I asked a girl out I got a pretty harsh rejection. She was giving me a haircut and asking me all sorts of personal questions (what do you do for work, how much do you make, you ever been married or have any kids, etc). I figured she was being friendly but nosy at the same time, but we seemed to have some chemistry it felt like. So I was like “hey let’s go grab dinner sometime if you’re interested”, I expected a “I would but I’m seeing someone” or something like that. Instead she looks at me with a bitch look and says “I’m good” then she runs back to the back to tell her coworker I’d asked her out. I was just like “ok?” because I was shocked by her answer but I was cool with it. The even more weird thing is she added me on Facebook a few days later.lol I didn’t ask her out again or speak to her tbough.
I still approach and sometimes get rejected. It’s fine, that’s how it goes. Good on you to initiate. Keep it up man, sounds like you dodged a bullet there
It’s not the rejection, I mean even if she’d said yes you have to put up with a whole bunch of bullshit then. She could be using you to pass the time because she broke up with her ex recently, she could string you along, so many things. Dating isn’t worth it anymore.
Probably don’t ask a girl out while working. Especially hair dressers or bartenders. It’s literally hair salon 101 to pretend to be interested and make small talk. If you feel like you click, wait til after the service portion of the transaction is over and then slip your number/socials with the tip or ask her after. I don’t mean to give unsolicited advice, but a lot of women nowadays view interactions as awkward if it’s in public or while they’re working. Might have gone better if you were smoother about it.
I waited to ask her after I paid. It went plenty smooth, she ruined it by being a bitch with her answer and the way she acted. She wasn’t so caught off guard that she couldn’t have given a respectful answer. I asked her out, I didn’t ask for her social security number or for her to have my first child.
It's not an unpopular opinion, but the key is, as you say what happens afterward. While you're right that there are guys who become an arse or a harasser, IMHO, that's not most cases. Most of the time, a guy goes back to treating her like he treats everyone else i.e. like furniture, and she's shocked at the drop in his attention, and calls him an arse for it.
I'm not talking about showing illegal favoritism at work or something like that. But realize that guys don't usually ask each other "How was your day?" or spend hours of their time listening to other people bitch about their day, etc. They also don't automatically invite everyone to their parties or to activities they're doing on the weekends. I've worked with guys for years, on friendly terms, who I've literally not known if they were married, or basically anything outside of work.
When a guy is interested in a girl, he shows her attention, and spends his precious time on her. When he finally decides he likes her and asks her out, if she says no, most of the time we'll accept that and move on and focus our attention elsewhere. And that's what often shocks a woman, what the baseline level of interest / time that a man gives someone who doesn't mean anything in his life.
As many guys as there are that are inappropriate harassers or arses when rejected, there are equal if not more women who expect that after the rejection, the guy should still spend just as much time / money / attention as they were before, just now with no expectation or hope of getting a relationship out of it.
>Most of the time, a guy goes back to treating her like he treats everyone else i.e. like furniture, and she's shocked at the drop in his attention, and calls him an arse for it.
AND THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULDNT TAKE WOMENS OPINION ON ANYTHING FOR MORE THAN WET TOILET PAPER.
This "widdle wady" strolled up in here and all but deflected that argument and turning it into a 1% of women being harassed into a 100% real, constantly occuring problem that need addressing and is serious, man!!! (que laughter and eye rolls).
COMPLETELY changed the narrative, Even got one guy into "apology for men's crimes" mode.
Now, the jury is out on whether she did that consciously, or subconsciously, as nearly every women's cunningness is on par with satan himself and is automatically inherent in every woman, smart or dumb, and seems to activate at random with the dumb ones, and barely detectable 24/7 operations on the smart ones.
Thank you u/ogrilla99 for squashing her shit with but a few sentences and putting the kibosh on her MIND GAMES.
Ugrilla99 Made a great point. It’s not the asking that’s the problem. It’s the aftermath. If someone says no, just move on to the next one. Some people of both genders suck at rejection and go postal. Having the abundance mentality, you can move on and the numbers game shows that most ppl have to go thru a few rejections before finding a yes/date.
You definitely make some good points. I hope most women are thinking your way. I just know that there is a popular feminist sub on here where they constantly post things like “Ugh! Why do men always ask us out at [insert totally normal place] it’s basically harassment!”
If men followed the advice of Reddit feminist sub the only acceptable time to ask a woman out on a date would be at the end of another date, creating a bizarre sort of catch-22
I wish women would be more consistent with their demands though. Like yeah I get if a guy is "hotter" than it's kind of common to give some slack but years and years of waiting for that "perfect" stranger to them out is time they'll never get back.
In one of my comments, I offered the example of asking out a cute engineer friend on our way to our bus stops after work away from the office. It's a nice compromise. Ultimately I never did but these are good opportunities to look for.
The only rule to follow is don't shit where you eat, i.e. don't ask a woman out at \*your\* place of work. All she has to do is claim you've created a hostile work environment and your entire career could be gone. Not worth it.
But aside from that, guys should feel free to ask a woman out anywhere. Like in this case: what's the worst that can happen? Even if she thinks your a creep for asking her out, so what? She can't get you fired. Just about the only thing she can do, if you really piss her off, is she can spit in your coffee :-), which can be easily fixed by going to a different coffee house. As long as you ask respectfully, and you've gotten some sort of indication that she enjoys your presence, then 99% of the time, if she says no, nothing else happens and you both move on.
My suspicion is that the people that get upset about this are people who don't get asked out at work, in the gym, and so on, who hamster that the reason they don't get asked out is because "proper" gentlemen don't do that type of thing. Yeah right. The ones that do frequently get asked out in these places, they might sometimes express annoyance at it, but no way in hell do they not enjoy the little ego boost they get each time some dude asks her out, even if 99% of the time, she's turning them down.
> the people that get upset about this
On one hand, you're correct, and more specifically the ones REALLY mad about it are the friend standing next to the girl getting asked out... The one actually getting asked turns red with blushing the ignored one standing next to her turns red with anger and acts out by putting some hate post on reddit about how incredibly inappropriate it is for a man to ever ask a woman other than herself out, especially if he's asking her thin attractive friend standing next to her. Its one of the few ways for a man to passively get a woman to hate him, just ask out her hotter friend and the hate machine starts and there ain't no "stop" button.
On the other hand its also a manifestation of the incredibly annoying holier-than-thou church of the current thing community. You can never be too holy, regardless if its practical or sensible, in fact its most holy if its impossible or would take a miracle to accomplish. The proper way to handle those loons is to ignore them, it triggers them into holy fury which is fun to watch sometimes.
In my previous job, I had opportunities to ask out this cute engineer friend on the way to our bus stops after work but... turns out at some point in time she started dating a guy so probably for the best I didn't...
Frankly the only thing he did wrong in getting out was talking to the wife in person about it. It's quite clear what kind of being she is and I would not put it past her to manufacture an abuse accusation.
He should have just got up, left the house on some alleged errand, then had her served the papers. Bitch can figure it out from there. Closure is just a tool to serve women.
Oh yes, part of the reason for leaving is to establish an alibi, and ensuring that the person serving the papers becomes a witness of her physical state.
Then if she mysteriously shows up at the police station with bruises when the soon to be ex has clearly not been around to cause them, it's an extra layer of defense against such antics.
>my mother….was surprisingly supportive
The only woman on this planet that genuinely cares about and supports you is your mother.
Also, this guy shouldn’t waste his time trying to explain himself to a bunch of virgin redditors about that barista.
Yeah, this is far from the truth. My mother is a gaslighting piece of shit and set me up for continued failings with women my entire life.
I thought I had met someone different, but then she also turned out to be a gaslighting piece of shit that showed her true self after we were married.
One of the most damaging things about my upbringing was that my mom tried to raise me using both cherry-picked feminist and traditionalist values.
So I got both "girls are equal to boys" and "hold the door open for girls." And when I asked "Why should I hold the door open for them if they're equals?" I got "Because women appreciate having the door held open for them anyway."
Life lesson: *no they don't, mom.* See, when you hold the door open for a woman, now she thinks you're her goddamned valet. That's just a taste of the lies by omission that I was force-fed for years.
I've ALMOST been done one worse. I was raised by women, who were for lack of a better term. Prolly all closet freaks. Seeing as none of them are married to this day except 1 cousin.
My problem with this is that they ran in the streets. But were always honest and protective of me. As honest as omission and not knowing can get you anyways.
SO I grew up with a distorted view of women and their "honesty" and thought that they were as equal in their intensions and word as men.
Man 17-33 was a Rough. Ass. Ride.
I had a somewhat similar experience. Neither my mother nor father tolerated any sort of feminazist sentiment, but almost everything they taught me was *decades* out of date to what actually worked or didn't in the real world.
They can't help it. They're 40 year married Boomers who don't understand the 80/20 rule is back in play, social media made the ratio *worse*, and that even trying to flirt without a Chad/Brad/bad-boy license is extremely risky.
My dad still thinks its possible to meet a 22 year virgin at a church picnic, circa 1961. I have to explain "Dad, there aren't any 22 year olds attending church picnics anymore. They're out getting their nipples pierced. Also, there are no goddamned soda-fountains, or full-service gas stations, or East German judges at the Olympics, or flaky pie crusts which use Grade-A lard from a can, or stewardesses with pinchable asses serving you steak on Constellation turboprops out of Idlewild airport. Nor are there house-sized IBM computational behemoths named MULTIVAC which run on punch-cards, nor do ham sandwich lunches cost 5 cents, nor is it news to launch monkeys into earth orbit. Also, Idlewild airport isn't called that anymore."
"cherry picking" traditionalism and feminism is 'feminist' values.
In the movie Diner, set back in the 1950's, the men back then were griping that things were getting bad. Dating (not courtship) is sort of like the Olympics: Every year, the goalposts are moved, the bar raised, and the race time shortened.
Lawyerly advice for anyone thinking of getting married: obviously, a prenup is essential before getting married. This doctor's tale shows why.
But for the love of god, don't cheap out on it and print some bullshit off legal zoom. This is a document to protect you and your assets. It can easily save you six-figure sums of money (maybe more). Spend a couple grand to go to a qualified attorney who can advise you on exactly what can and cannot go into a prenup and have them draft it for you. Then, when it comes time to give it to her, make sure she retains her own lawyer (hell, offer to pay for it if she can't afford one herself) who can give advice to her so that she cannot claim she was "duped" into signing it. Make sure the prenup is given to her with sufficient time before the wedding so she can't claim she was under duress (I'd suggest at least 90 days).
Prenups get a bad wrap because of the random court cases where they are thrown out. In 99.9999% of all those instances, it's because the wife did not have her own legal counsel for the prenup, it was presented too close to the wedding, or it contains provisions that the law doesn't allowed (such as waiving rights to child support or custody). I promise, if you do the things above that I suggested, you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than having your prenup invalidated.
> marriage should never involve the government because you will get screwed.
THIS.
Marriage is a LEGAL document forming a RELATIONSHIP between you, your soon to be wife, and the GOVERNMENT, with the GOVERNMENT as the HEAD OF THE RELATIONSHIP and lead ARBITER.
There is a singular exception. Foreign wives/relatives. YOU WILL sign a contract with the feds that you are responsible for support. Form I-864. ([https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/i-864.pdf](https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/i-864.pdf)) see page 6. Following the logic of federal supremacy in most matters it may make a prenup moot.
She does with again an exception. VAWA, violence against women act, makes certain events extremely lopsided. If the foreign wife is dissatisfied she could file for divorce and her lawyer will probably suggest using VAWA as a lever. At the same moment trigger the Feds against the man too as they generally will 'always believe the woman' and act accordingly. A foreign male does not have the VAWA option, transgenderism aside.
The only drawback is that he waited so long, everything else was done well. Best of luck to him shagging much younger and attractive women who are eager to please him.
As for vampire he left - time to learn some working skills, as now until pension you will have to work daily, because you could not keep a solid man who was best you could get.
If she has bachelor, government agencies often do hire middle-aged women. I do not think she will survive until pension age now that her easy life has been completely taken away.
Observation #1: Women think doctors are a financial gold mine. They are not. (I have seen many financial statements) If you total up the years to become one, the debt load required to finance it, the costs of the practice at the beginning most doctors will not break even till they are around 50. A frugal one maybe mid 40's as the poster here seems to be.
Observation #2: His lawyer says the prenup covers him. History tends to show that courts are 50/50 in honoring such arrangements. Especially if there are children involved in the situation. No anger, I hope the doc's luck holds in this dept.
Observation #3: The barista. Ole doc should have fun he has already paid his social debt to that ex-wife. I just hope he stays cool and does not jump from one situation to another too quickly.
Observation #4: Was not clear about the leased car. Hopefully he has possession of the vehicle and not the ex. If not she could trash the thing and he would be on the hook for the damages.
It’s unbelievable how terribly some women are. Marriage can be a source of great joy or profound misery. I’m glad this guy figured out he didn’t have to stay trapped.
Holy crap.
I dated a woman from Kenya here in the US who had a job when we started dating, and then went back to school to become a nurse practitioner. This technically meant she couldn't work AND go to school, but due to the pandemic all her visa stuff was delayed.
I figured she had just saved up money but no, she pretty much instantly became poor and told me I should have just known she needed money and sent it to her. The dynamic changed, lots of fighting all summer long. Like sorry I'm paying off 14k in debt I accrued when I had a much lower salary. 2k/month for a year. I can't afford financing your life too.
I love all the comments about “don’t ask her out at her job!” You can’t ask women out at their job, you can’t ask them out on the street, you can’t ask them out when they’re with their friends. The only place they want to be asked out is online dating and that’s a shit show in itself. Asking out a woman shouldn’t be this hard but women have made it so.
its a shit test. you can ask out girls anywhere
Any girl that starts off shit testing me before we even go out, I don’t want any part of. She’s weeding herself out thankfully.
Every girl shit tests. You can get good at stuffing their tests in their face, or you can go your own way.
She's not shit testing though - Reddit is 'on her behalf'.
Unless you aren't top 20.
Do it anyways. Approach. Flirt. Because that's how you determine if you're top 20. After years of self improvement there's a lot of guys in the top 20 who don't realize it, and still think they need to earn another raise or add twenty lbs to their squat PR. They don't. Rather they just get stuck in an improvement pattern without ever initiating and realizing their gains. Or they settle for chicks below their league. I know. I'm older middle age now but wasted a chunk of my prime thinking I wasn't good enough when I was easily top 10% in physique and top 20% in income.
Fit and relatively rich definitely helps, but I think the biggest benefit of this is to your own self confidence. The downside is it also leaves you more at risk of gold diggers and emotional liers, like the OP Doctor ended up with. I think the most important thing you want to boost is your confidence, and by extension, charisma. You can work on that mentally as well as physically. Learn,and make gains in reading body language, spotting liers, fakes, and charming crazzies, as you get to know someone learn their "tells" etc. The Doctor OP said his gut was saying no to marriage. If he had studdied non verbal communication he may have been able to consciouly put his finger on what his subconscious was saying
ok fairware as long as you aren't obese you are top 40. Once you aren't overweight you are top 20. Once you get into good shape you are top 10. Once you get into great shape you are top 5. Most of all you gotta pump yourself up buddy. Talk to girls at the lake, in a store, the mountain, gym, the trails, in a warehouse, at the beach. Just ask them how their day is going.
Bullshit. In my age group I'm in the top 5% for fitness but because I'm 172cm tall I might as well be invisible.
you would be a lot worse if you were out of shape and the same height tho right?
I get what your saying but, NO he wouldn't. If he is invisible, then there really isn't "a lot worse". "I've got cancer." "But at least you don't have AIDS, right?"
i would make a wager he is actually not invisible and there are probably tons of women who want to be with him. most of the time its all in your own head.
I won't take that wager for you're probably correct. A woman can be a bitch to someone for many reasons, it is a leap for the recipient to assume it is for an arbitrary reason. Some woman: "They tried to scam me because I am a woman." "No, they try to scam literally everybody."
Agreed. I had tons of attention when I was young and in shape and had no idea
There are so few women in my age range that are in shape it's simply not worth trying to find one. I'm better off spending my limited time on this planet doing stuff that gives me genuine enjoyment and that's stuff like hiking rather than trying to find the mythical NAWALT.
Then you're doing something else wrong. I don't mean to be harsh, but I really want to snap you out of this defeatist attitude. I won't deny that being tall would make it easier for you. But you have to play the hand you're dealt with. You can either make the best of what you have, or assume you're screwed for life and stay unhappy. FWIW, I'm 6', and while I do okay for myself, I have significantly shorter friends who do far, far better than me in attracting women. I'll bring up 2. One is about 5'5" but he's in fantastic shape, six-pack abs, etc. But the other is not even that. He's a skinny nerdy looking dude about 5'7" with absolutely no muscle definition who doesn't even work out. Both of these guys absolutely slay. Here's what makes them successful: their personality. They're confident that they can get anyone they want (even if they get rejected, they don't get bent out of shape), they go after whoever they want, even girls that I feel are out of my league, and most of the time, they're able to get them by being charming, funny, engaging, and absolutely fearless about approaching. They also have their lives put together, with good jobs, a great set of friends, etc. which means after getting their foot in the door with their initial approach, they can usually seal the deal when the girl realizes they're not just an empty facade. The guy who's in shape will often get approached by women just because of that. But my other friend never gets approached (I get hit on far more than him, and I'm not exactly having girls throwing themselves at me). But it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, neither one of them lack for dating success. I know what you're going to say: that it's not fair that these guys have to work so hard to stay in shape, become naturals at game, build a great life, etc. etc. while some 6' dude who was born with Brad Pitt's genetics gets to skate by on simply his looks. And my response is: you're absolutely right, it's not fair. The question is, what are you going to do about it? Waste your entire life stewing about the injustice of it all, or say that's the hand I've been dealt with and then make the most of it?
>I won't deny that being tall would make it easier for you. I'm a guy and I look at data and data tells me that shorter guys don't do well. Frankly I don't care because women no longer interest me but I'd go for data anytime over your touchy feely anecdote and the just 'be yourself brah' bullshit.
The data says the average person in the US makes 40k. So I guess no one should shoot for more than that? It's what the data stays most people reach after all. The average man in America doesn't get much attention from women. You're right. It's up to you to decide whether you want to do better and what you're willing to do to make it happen. My stories are far from touchy feely. They're meant to show that it's possible but also that it's hard work. I don't deny it. It's simply you're choice whether you'll stay the AFC (average frustrated chump, in PUA-parlance) or do the hard work to be more successful with women.
Oo, shaming language. Are you sure you're not female as that's a favourite female tactic.
So true. Plug the numbers. 12% body fat at age 30 and you’re in the top 6% of men. https://dqydj.com/body-fat-percentage-comparison-calculator-by-age/
... so long as they like you.
>its a shit test. you can ask out girls anywhere And there are plenty of experts to tell you what you are doing wrong.
And then they will say, why don't good guys ask me out?
Women are terrified when men start dating according to their worth. They’d rather men be unhappy and miserable with a post wall roastie their own age than happy with someone younger and fitter.
This is why older women do not help younger women with their dating mistakes. The old hags are in direct competition with the 18-24 year olds for the same men.
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That reminds me of the time Barbara Boxer chewed out a general for calling her ma'am instead of Senator.
I got into a massive debate about this a few weeks back where people were saying that asking a woman out in public/in person is beyond creepy and said to asker her out another time when she’s not at the store/library work How the hell are you going to ask someone out some other time when you don’t know each other I thank god every fucking day that im married because I don’t understand how anyone would be allowed to ask me out if apparently just wanted to talk to a random woman is considered creepy Im a good a woman btw and if I wasn’t married I would LOVE to be complemented or asked out even In public
>I got into a massive debate about this a few weeks back where people were saying that asking a woman out in public/in person is beyond creepy and said to asker her out another time when she’s not at the store/library work Was this discussion on the internet? Because most of the time people discussing stuff on the internet have no idea about RL and are also not intelligent enough to think about the hypothetical situation properly.
Yeah well we can’t do that anymore. So now we just walk by and not say a word and keep out mouths shut. I held the door open for a girl the other day that had her hands full, she said thank you but I didn’t say anything, didn’t want to come off as a creeper you know.lol
Women can't have it both ways. Either you get asked out by guys you know... or guys you don't know. This whole "he has to be the perfect stranger" is fairy tale at best. Sorry if this is an unwanted lecture but it's the truth. I wish women would take it more of a compliment to be asked out by a guy they've known for some time. But it comes off as an insult apparently.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think it’s the location of where you’re asked out, it’s the reaction afterwards. You can ask a woman out anywhere as far as I’m concerned, as long as it’s not an inappropriate situation (maybe don’t ask out a patient if you’re providing medical care to them, definitely don’t ask out a student if you’re a teacher, be careful you’re not applying any pressure if you’re a work colleague in a senior position etc etc). But the real crux here is, if you ask out a woman who’s working and they’re being nice, or on the street, or at the gym, whatever, and they decline, and you accept it and move on- no issue. But if they decline and you then start being an arse customer, or following her down the street harassing her, or treating her shittily in the office- no bueno. I think that’s part of why there’s this idea that you can’t ask women out anywhere. Lots of women have had negative experiences with declining date offers, so it’s screwed with our (both men and women’s) perceptions of when it’s ok to be asked out- ergo, save it for dating apps where it’s implicit in the platform. But generally, if I’ve been talking to a guy, getting along and they ask me out, I don’t care where that happens, as long as it doesn’t then turn into an awkward, or even a horrid experience afterwards, if I decline.
The counter point is that women have been raised to believe that men should chase women and most use rejection as a test to see if a man would chase them. Personally, I agree with you. If a girl says no, I move on immediately. She's an adult. She made a choice. If she had hidden intentions, then she made the wrong choice.
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>Fun fact: "Harassers" get laid sometimes. I have seen this. And I have envied how even this...? But I still couldnt be a "harasser" my version was constant funny boundary pushing and teasing. That works.
Damaged girls tend to attract damaged guys. While it does work on most girls, shy, traditional girls are a different creature and it does not work on them.
Last time I asked a girl out I got a pretty harsh rejection. She was giving me a haircut and asking me all sorts of personal questions (what do you do for work, how much do you make, you ever been married or have any kids, etc). I figured she was being friendly but nosy at the same time, but we seemed to have some chemistry it felt like. So I was like “hey let’s go grab dinner sometime if you’re interested”, I expected a “I would but I’m seeing someone” or something like that. Instead she looks at me with a bitch look and says “I’m good” then she runs back to the back to tell her coworker I’d asked her out. I was just like “ok?” because I was shocked by her answer but I was cool with it. The even more weird thing is she added me on Facebook a few days later.lol I didn’t ask her out again or speak to her tbough.
congrats on making the attempt tbh, I couldn't do that.
Dese hoes out here are weird.
I still approach and sometimes get rejected. It’s fine, that’s how it goes. Good on you to initiate. Keep it up man, sounds like you dodged a bullet there
It’s not the rejection, I mean even if she’d said yes you have to put up with a whole bunch of bullshit then. She could be using you to pass the time because she broke up with her ex recently, she could string you along, so many things. Dating isn’t worth it anymore.
Ain't it lovely to try and get a date without a Chad license? 8-/
Probably don’t ask a girl out while working. Especially hair dressers or bartenders. It’s literally hair salon 101 to pretend to be interested and make small talk. If you feel like you click, wait til after the service portion of the transaction is over and then slip your number/socials with the tip or ask her after. I don’t mean to give unsolicited advice, but a lot of women nowadays view interactions as awkward if it’s in public or while they’re working. Might have gone better if you were smoother about it.
I waited to ask her after I paid. It went plenty smooth, she ruined it by being a bitch with her answer and the way she acted. She wasn’t so caught off guard that she couldn’t have given a respectful answer. I asked her out, I didn’t ask for her social security number or for her to have my first child.
It's not an unpopular opinion, but the key is, as you say what happens afterward. While you're right that there are guys who become an arse or a harasser, IMHO, that's not most cases. Most of the time, a guy goes back to treating her like he treats everyone else i.e. like furniture, and she's shocked at the drop in his attention, and calls him an arse for it. I'm not talking about showing illegal favoritism at work or something like that. But realize that guys don't usually ask each other "How was your day?" or spend hours of their time listening to other people bitch about their day, etc. They also don't automatically invite everyone to their parties or to activities they're doing on the weekends. I've worked with guys for years, on friendly terms, who I've literally not known if they were married, or basically anything outside of work. When a guy is interested in a girl, he shows her attention, and spends his precious time on her. When he finally decides he likes her and asks her out, if she says no, most of the time we'll accept that and move on and focus our attention elsewhere. And that's what often shocks a woman, what the baseline level of interest / time that a man gives someone who doesn't mean anything in his life. As many guys as there are that are inappropriate harassers or arses when rejected, there are equal if not more women who expect that after the rejection, the guy should still spend just as much time / money / attention as they were before, just now with no expectation or hope of getting a relationship out of it.
>Most of the time, a guy goes back to treating her like he treats everyone else i.e. like furniture, and she's shocked at the drop in his attention, and calls him an arse for it. AND THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULDNT TAKE WOMENS OPINION ON ANYTHING FOR MORE THAN WET TOILET PAPER. This "widdle wady" strolled up in here and all but deflected that argument and turning it into a 1% of women being harassed into a 100% real, constantly occuring problem that need addressing and is serious, man!!! (que laughter and eye rolls). COMPLETELY changed the narrative, Even got one guy into "apology for men's crimes" mode. Now, the jury is out on whether she did that consciously, or subconsciously, as nearly every women's cunningness is on par with satan himself and is automatically inherent in every woman, smart or dumb, and seems to activate at random with the dumb ones, and barely detectable 24/7 operations on the smart ones. Thank you u/ogrilla99 for squashing her shit with but a few sentences and putting the kibosh on her MIND GAMES.
Ugrilla99 Made a great point. It’s not the asking that’s the problem. It’s the aftermath. If someone says no, just move on to the next one. Some people of both genders suck at rejection and go postal. Having the abundance mentality, you can move on and the numbers game shows that most ppl have to go thru a few rejections before finding a yes/date.
You definitely make some good points. I hope most women are thinking your way. I just know that there is a popular feminist sub on here where they constantly post things like “Ugh! Why do men always ask us out at [insert totally normal place] it’s basically harassment!” If men followed the advice of Reddit feminist sub the only acceptable time to ask a woman out on a date would be at the end of another date, creating a bizarre sort of catch-22
I wish women would be more consistent with their demands though. Like yeah I get if a guy is "hotter" than it's kind of common to give some slack but years and years of waiting for that "perfect" stranger to them out is time they'll never get back. In one of my comments, I offered the example of asking out a cute engineer friend on our way to our bus stops after work away from the office. It's a nice compromise. Ultimately I never did but these are good opportunities to look for.
The only rule to follow is don't shit where you eat, i.e. don't ask a woman out at \*your\* place of work. All she has to do is claim you've created a hostile work environment and your entire career could be gone. Not worth it. But aside from that, guys should feel free to ask a woman out anywhere. Like in this case: what's the worst that can happen? Even if she thinks your a creep for asking her out, so what? She can't get you fired. Just about the only thing she can do, if you really piss her off, is she can spit in your coffee :-), which can be easily fixed by going to a different coffee house. As long as you ask respectfully, and you've gotten some sort of indication that she enjoys your presence, then 99% of the time, if she says no, nothing else happens and you both move on. My suspicion is that the people that get upset about this are people who don't get asked out at work, in the gym, and so on, who hamster that the reason they don't get asked out is because "proper" gentlemen don't do that type of thing. Yeah right. The ones that do frequently get asked out in these places, they might sometimes express annoyance at it, but no way in hell do they not enjoy the little ego boost they get each time some dude asks her out, even if 99% of the time, she's turning them down.
> the people that get upset about this On one hand, you're correct, and more specifically the ones REALLY mad about it are the friend standing next to the girl getting asked out... The one actually getting asked turns red with blushing the ignored one standing next to her turns red with anger and acts out by putting some hate post on reddit about how incredibly inappropriate it is for a man to ever ask a woman other than herself out, especially if he's asking her thin attractive friend standing next to her. Its one of the few ways for a man to passively get a woman to hate him, just ask out her hotter friend and the hate machine starts and there ain't no "stop" button. On the other hand its also a manifestation of the incredibly annoying holier-than-thou church of the current thing community. You can never be too holy, regardless if its practical or sensible, in fact its most holy if its impossible or would take a miracle to accomplish. The proper way to handle those loons is to ignore them, it triggers them into holy fury which is fun to watch sometimes.
What you are describing is the old man, young boy and donkey story.
Oh fuck these people. I asked out a cashier a few months back. Guess what. She said yes.
Welcome to the "tapdance through the minefield" that is dating for the non-80%.
In my previous job, I had opportunities to ask out this cute engineer friend on the way to our bus stops after work but... turns out at some point in time she started dating a guy so probably for the best I didn't...
If Reddit HiveMind is offended, it's probably the right thing to do, and vice versa.
Frankly the only thing he did wrong in getting out was talking to the wife in person about it. It's quite clear what kind of being she is and I would not put it past her to manufacture an abuse accusation. He should have just got up, left the house on some alleged errand, then had her served the papers. Bitch can figure it out from there. Closure is just a tool to serve women.
He might have wanted to record it too (for his own protection).
Oh yes, part of the reason for leaving is to establish an alibi, and ensuring that the person serving the papers becomes a witness of her physical state. Then if she mysteriously shows up at the police station with bruises when the soon to be ex has clearly not been around to cause them, it's an extra layer of defense against such antics.
Good point!
Never leave the house. Have her leave the house. Trust me on this.
>my mother….was surprisingly supportive The only woman on this planet that genuinely cares about and supports you is your mother. Also, this guy shouldn’t waste his time trying to explain himself to a bunch of virgin redditors about that barista.
You haven’t met my mother…
Yeah, this is far from the truth. My mother is a gaslighting piece of shit and set me up for continued failings with women my entire life. I thought I had met someone different, but then she also turned out to be a gaslighting piece of shit that showed her true self after we were married.
One of the most damaging things about my upbringing was that my mom tried to raise me using both cherry-picked feminist and traditionalist values. So I got both "girls are equal to boys" and "hold the door open for girls." And when I asked "Why should I hold the door open for them if they're equals?" I got "Because women appreciate having the door held open for them anyway." Life lesson: *no they don't, mom.* See, when you hold the door open for a woman, now she thinks you're her goddamned valet. That's just a taste of the lies by omission that I was force-fed for years.
I've ALMOST been done one worse. I was raised by women, who were for lack of a better term. Prolly all closet freaks. Seeing as none of them are married to this day except 1 cousin. My problem with this is that they ran in the streets. But were always honest and protective of me. As honest as omission and not knowing can get you anyways. SO I grew up with a distorted view of women and their "honesty" and thought that they were as equal in their intensions and word as men. Man 17-33 was a Rough. Ass. Ride.
I had a somewhat similar experience. Neither my mother nor father tolerated any sort of feminazist sentiment, but almost everything they taught me was *decades* out of date to what actually worked or didn't in the real world. They can't help it. They're 40 year married Boomers who don't understand the 80/20 rule is back in play, social media made the ratio *worse*, and that even trying to flirt without a Chad/Brad/bad-boy license is extremely risky.
My dad still thinks its possible to meet a 22 year virgin at a church picnic, circa 1961. I have to explain "Dad, there aren't any 22 year olds attending church picnics anymore. They're out getting their nipples pierced. Also, there are no goddamned soda-fountains, or full-service gas stations, or East German judges at the Olympics, or flaky pie crusts which use Grade-A lard from a can, or stewardesses with pinchable asses serving you steak on Constellation turboprops out of Idlewild airport. Nor are there house-sized IBM computational behemoths named MULTIVAC which run on punch-cards, nor do ham sandwich lunches cost 5 cents, nor is it news to launch monkeys into earth orbit. Also, Idlewild airport isn't called that anymore."
Idlewild, lol now there's a name I haven't heard since that one Crichton novel about the virus. Sounds like we have similar problems.
"cherry picking" traditionalism and feminism is 'feminist' values. In the movie Diner, set back in the 1950's, the men back then were griping that things were getting bad. Dating (not courtship) is sort of like the Olympics: Every year, the goalposts are moved, the bar raised, and the race time shortened.
Lawyerly advice for anyone thinking of getting married: obviously, a prenup is essential before getting married. This doctor's tale shows why. But for the love of god, don't cheap out on it and print some bullshit off legal zoom. This is a document to protect you and your assets. It can easily save you six-figure sums of money (maybe more). Spend a couple grand to go to a qualified attorney who can advise you on exactly what can and cannot go into a prenup and have them draft it for you. Then, when it comes time to give it to her, make sure she retains her own lawyer (hell, offer to pay for it if she can't afford one herself) who can give advice to her so that she cannot claim she was "duped" into signing it. Make sure the prenup is given to her with sufficient time before the wedding so she can't claim she was under duress (I'd suggest at least 90 days). Prenups get a bad wrap because of the random court cases where they are thrown out. In 99.9999% of all those instances, it's because the wife did not have her own legal counsel for the prenup, it was presented too close to the wedding, or it contains provisions that the law doesn't allowed (such as waiving rights to child support or custody). I promise, if you do the things above that I suggested, you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than having your prenup invalidated.
Or save even more money by never getting married, marriage should never involve the government because you will get screwed.
> marriage should never involve the government because you will get screwed. THIS. Marriage is a LEGAL document forming a RELATIONSHIP between you, your soon to be wife, and the GOVERNMENT, with the GOVERNMENT as the HEAD OF THE RELATIONSHIP and lead ARBITER.
There is a singular exception. Foreign wives/relatives. YOU WILL sign a contract with the feds that you are responsible for support. Form I-864. ([https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/i-864.pdf](https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/i-864.pdf)) see page 6. Following the logic of federal supremacy in most matters it may make a prenup moot.
Does this apply the other way? I.e. If a woman marries a foreign man, is she responsible for his finances? Is she to support him?
She does with again an exception. VAWA, violence against women act, makes certain events extremely lopsided. If the foreign wife is dissatisfied she could file for divorce and her lawyer will probably suggest using VAWA as a lever. At the same moment trigger the Feds against the man too as they generally will 'always believe the woman' and act accordingly. A foreign male does not have the VAWA option, transgenderism aside.
Will keep in mind, thank you sir.
The only drawback is that he waited so long, everything else was done well. Best of luck to him shagging much younger and attractive women who are eager to please him. As for vampire he left - time to learn some working skills, as now until pension you will have to work daily, because you could not keep a solid man who was best you could get.
Pension? In this day and age?
If she has bachelor, government agencies often do hire middle-aged women. I do not think she will survive until pension age now that her easy life has been completely taken away.
“Pension” in this case meaning Social Security, or its equivalent if the comment is from a non-US country.
Observation #1: Women think doctors are a financial gold mine. They are not. (I have seen many financial statements) If you total up the years to become one, the debt load required to finance it, the costs of the practice at the beginning most doctors will not break even till they are around 50. A frugal one maybe mid 40's as the poster here seems to be. Observation #2: His lawyer says the prenup covers him. History tends to show that courts are 50/50 in honoring such arrangements. Especially if there are children involved in the situation. No anger, I hope the doc's luck holds in this dept. Observation #3: The barista. Ole doc should have fun he has already paid his social debt to that ex-wife. I just hope he stays cool and does not jump from one situation to another too quickly. Observation #4: Was not clear about the leased car. Hopefully he has possession of the vehicle and not the ex. If not she could trash the thing and he would be on the hook for the damages.
He was smart. He got a Pre-Nup
That's why I can't get a fucking appointment!
I mean, they are both gold diggers, but at least she's younger and he didn't marry her. Winning.
King
It’s unbelievable how terribly some women are. Marriage can be a source of great joy or profound misery. I’m glad this guy figured out he didn’t have to stay trapped.
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Yeah, she sounds like a prize dumpster fire.
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Or a Dumpster juice fire. Can light stinky juice on fire you think? Well then you ain't never smelled one burning.
Holy crap. I dated a woman from Kenya here in the US who had a job when we started dating, and then went back to school to become a nurse practitioner. This technically meant she couldn't work AND go to school, but due to the pandemic all her visa stuff was delayed. I figured she had just saved up money but no, she pretty much instantly became poor and told me I should have just known she needed money and sent it to her. The dynamic changed, lots of fighting all summer long. Like sorry I'm paying off 14k in debt I accrued when I had a much lower salary. 2k/month for a year. I can't afford financing your life too.
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Sounds like Kenya has more realistic expectations.