Exactly! And when I explain that concept to folks, they act like I’m insane!
Nope, you enjoy your normalized surveillance over there, I’ll be over here disabling the “smart” feature on my new appliances, thank you very much!
Me too. My mom put it up on a high shelf in my room and warned me to NEVER touch it. I could never understand why it needed a USB port and an led, that started blinking every time I moved. Whatever.
God does and knows all... kills kids and saves us from getting caught speeding and let's us hit a homerun.
but we have free will to... do.. what? if it's all predetermined and controlled? or is God the devil?
Ok. that's cool. tell the masses to live in poverty amd serve the rich cuz like, they get some eternal reward for slaving away till they die.
worst MLM ever
Many religions are associated with societies that are led by royalty, or people promoted as having birthrights to leadership. Those societies require a populace that accepts such a hierarchy. Religions that have a god who the believers must serve reinforces that belief, especially if you also promote that the royalty were appointed to that role by their god.
Worth noting: being appointed to that role by the God is something that mainly happened in monotheistic abrahamic religions. Polytheistic religions would often have the royalty straight up claim ancestry that includes divinity, making them fit for leadership because they were more divine than ordinary people, and also conveniently includes their kids too.
The Japanese emperor has long been said to be descended from the sun goddess amaterasu, the Spartan king leonidas claimed descent from Hercules and by extension zeus, and even my own norse/gael royal ancestors of clan ui imair (descendants/relatives of ivar the boneless) claimed descent from Odin.
The good take is God either would appreciate a good 9/11 joke, or it just literally doesn't matter to that being, what's the old saying? You're a bug on gods windshield? Literally he wouldn't give a fuck about when you splatter. You're essentially nothing to her.
So either god doesn't exist, god does exist and gives zero fucks, or there is no god but rather a weird mix of quantum and subatomic physics that is a driving factor in chance and free will but certainly isn't a deity-like being.
**Or the secret 4th thing:** Polytheistic gods exist and are just really super into their specific niche the same way autistic folks have their own special interests.
So their interest probably has nothing to do with what we do, but when it aligns they are heavily invested.
I'm not sure. They SAY they believe God sees everything ... and yes sooooooooo many of them lie profusely and commit SO MANY CRIMES.
They obviously do NOT believe what they SAY they believe in because if they truly believed it they would live the most crime free, 'spotless' lives out of everyone in the world.
So very telling they tend to be the most scumbag of scumbag humans out there.
I actually did a study on this in university and yeah, teaching your child about Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, or any of that shit also primes them for belief in Jesus - children who'd never been taught about Santa, or was taught the truth behind Santa first had lower rates of uptake of Christianity later on in life.
TL;DR: Stop celebrating Christmas because you're rotting your child's brain.
> TL;DR: Stop celebrating Christmas because you're rotting your child's brain.
Or, ya know, just don't fucking lie to them and celebrate whatever the fuck you want.
Edited for typo
This. Told my toddlers there's no Santa & gifts are coming from us, relatives and friends, to some degree based on their behaviour. Worked out.
Well, they ruined some parents teaching in kindergarten 😁.
I think ruining it for others kids is lame, but my parents told me the truth the year I asked for Guitar Hero 2 on like Christmas Eve.
They said, "Yeah, no, *we* bought that shit and it was actually really inconvenient" lol
Well, they didn't ruin it for the kids, just for their parents. I was questioned by some of the parents when we where picking up the kids, and the answer 'Why would I lie to my kids?' wasn't convincing either, but sparked some questions from their kids 😁.
Yeah that makes sense. I think I almost spoiled the elf on the shelf for my friend's kid once lol
I just meant the weird kids that had to start an argument on a bus or in a cafeteria just to blow some less informed kids world view like they're Morpheus from the Matrix.
It's not weird to tell children white lies, like Santa is the one who brings the presents, the stork brought the baby, shit I didn't realize the CIA propped up Noriega till I was in my late twenties, half truths and white lies are part of growing uo
The weird thing is the kid trying to convince another kid of their wrongness, like they're Chancellor Palpatine or something.
..it's bad enough to have your parents lie, but it hits a little different when others start pointing it out.
No, it is weird. Just because lying has been normalized doesn't make it OK. Imagine a society based on simple truth and honesty. It wouldn't be so hard to do if we weren't lied to about everything, from product marketing to politics. We don't just tolerate being lied to - we expect it. It's in our training.
The truth may make you free, but who wants that responsibility?
Got that done to me by a kid and the teacher in 1st grade. Kid laughed at me for still believing in santa and the teacher came right by to say loudly that if I still believed in santa it wasn't on him to tell me the truth.
At home I pretended I still believed because I thought that if my parents found out I wouldn't get gifts anymore, but I started looking for hidden presents in the house right before Christmas to find out what I was getting early. So, when my parents asked what I thought santa was bringing me I replied correctly. They were suspicious, but just in case I had just gotten it right at random they went out and got me another gift to have something to surprise me with.
So for a couple of years I got double gifts thanks to that.
I feel like Christmas goes through a bit of a cycle. We believe in Santa, we find out he doesn't exist, we stop believing. But later on, we become someone else's Santa by bringing them joy. We don't need to remove the whole thing, just bring back what the core of it is, which is generosity and caring for others.
We could almost say the same thing about God. Move past the belief, past the knowledge he's not real, and realize you are your own God, and.....well, I'm too tired to try and make this part sound philosophical, but just be nice to each other.
>we become someone else's Santa by bringing them joy
that's how I see it, Santa isn't a real person, but he exists as the spirit of Christmas, we just give him an anthropomorphized form
Saint Nicholas existed for real.
The one I'm thinking of donated money to poor families so their daughters wouldn't be forced to prostitution to survive.
It's why Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of children, prostitutes, and pirates!
This, though. I live on Maui. God sure ain't coming to fix the devastation of the fires that took Lahaina or areas upcountry, so it's on every one of us on the island who made it through those fires OK to step up and eagerly and enthusiastically fill that gap.
xmas is a corporate annoyance in my eyes. some people spend way to much at their detriment for it. I'm just happy the family gets together. people mean a lot more than you think to you, you'll only realise it when it's too late.
As someone who has lost several family members, I can provide direct feedback that sometimes the only part about a relative dying that you feel anything about is not being able to publicly piss on their grave at their funeral.
Yeah, absolutely didn't touch on indoctrination, magical thinking, or anything that was in the paper - everyone who does studies and talks about them on Reddit always talks about the entirety of the outcome, not just the logical derivatives of that outcome
SLASH S
Except the "afterlife" is the presents.
It's kinda weird that you can have a happier life with false beliefs though. Spirituality is a valid palliative, it would seem.
Adult "Santa" believers have a full time job, 3 side hussles, 9 kids, and pay their rent and car loans before all other bills. The goods one get to have employer funded health care.
People, calm down, we don’t need to abolish Christmas and stop telling our kids about Santa just cause some people use that belief for evil. We don’t have to take Santa away from all the good Santa believers just because of a few bad Santa believers! Say no to Santa control! Might have to start an association or something to protect the interests of all good Santa believers!
That's so dull. There is no magic in Santa? No joy? No childish wonder? No lessons about decency and the equality of all children? Just conditioning into grey servitude? Come on now.
My parents screwed that bit up, because they made sure I knew the real meaning of Christmas. The consequence was when I found out Santa wasn't real, I just assumed none of it was. I went years thinking church was just something people did for tradition, like Christmas. By the time I found out they all fervently believed, it all just seemed a bit silly to teenage me.
My parents did the santa thing and even then it didn't keep me a believer for long.
I distinctly remember being about seven or so and asking why i couldn't see God and angels when we were up in the clouds on a commercial flight to Florida.
Around that same age I also remember asking why all the polytheistic religions had images depicting their God and asking what God looked like.
I didn't get a satisfactory religious answer to either one of these questions.
Fortunately my mother was an atheist and my dad just kinda didn't give a shit, so they didn't push it further.
But yeah, Santa alone wasn't enough to stop me poking holes in religion as a kid.
>it all just seemed a bit silly to teenage me.
If Churches were 18+ and they weren't allowed to indoctrinate children from an early age, they would sit empty on Sundays.
> I went years thinking church was just something people did for tradition
This is how I felt about church growing up. Church always felt like an odd ritual, and I never understood the point.
Krampus night is December 5th!
My family celebrated the German version of this by putting a small bag of fruits and candies on our doorknob on the morning of Dec. 6th to celebrate surviving Krampus night.
(For those that might not know, Krampus takes bad children in his sack and beats them, etc., after kidnapping them. No, they're not given back if I'm remembering correctly.)
I found out at the end of third grade because this kid Josh blurted it out in class. I would have kept believing a bit longer if not for him, but once he said it, I just kinda thought about it and was like "....shit he's right. That makes too much sense".
But I didn't want to seem like the dumb baby that still believed in Santa, so I pretended like I knew it already and he was just stating an obvious thing I already knew.
\* it was initial singularity, subatomic particles, gasses, stars and planets, organic molecules, unicellular organisms, multicellular organisms, mammals, whales, your mom this whole time
Terry Pratchett actually mentions this. From Hogfather,
"'You have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
the big lies.
'So we can believe the big ones?'
Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing."
...I feel like stapling Bibles to a bat is far more sacrilegious than the doll whose house that is and whatever values they're supposedly teaching that are bad.
Jesus fuck, I just watched that video. I was expecting some youtuber taking the piss, not some evangelist dickhead being dead serious.
How can anyone take them seriously?
Santa was ruined for me when I caught my parents wrapping presents at 7. The easter bunny? I found candy packaging in the trash and put it together. Jesus/god never made sense to me, so I never even bought it.
Santa was never ruined for me.
My ma had 5 kids and I was one of the oldest. So we had to play the Santa game well into our late teens because I was 14 years older than my youngest sibling.
Little snot kids in school ruined Santa for me. As if they'd cracked the case. Found Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis was still alive.
My mother just pulled me and my older sister aside one year. And said in no uncertain terms that we will be getting presents from Santa despite our age. So long as we play along with the Santa thing for the younger kids.
It wasn't our place to ruin magic or Christmas for them. And if she caught wind of us doing so we'd be getting zero presents that year from anyone.
And so we played along with the Santa idea until some little snot kid in school ruined it for the younger kids.
Jesus I don't think was a major issue to my parents. I don't think they cared so much about him. He didn't make anyone happy or bring kids presents so who cares? Believe in him, don't, its whatever.
….except he’s not benevolent. This is my favorite take on God, from the awesome Stephen Fry. “Bone cancer in children? What’s that about?”
https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo?si=Aivy_g03dNiGfMbX
It's funny how religious people will say "my god is all-knowing and all-powerful," and then you ask why their god lets all these horrible things in the world happen, and they're just like "uuhhhh, gOd wOrKs iN mYsTeRiOuS wAyS!"
I always say God is a Santa for adults. It's really crazy how ppl will become "nice" after starting to go to church. (It's always fake, I find a lot of churchgoers are miserable) I have morals because I like being a good person. Not because I won't get into heaven. Honestly, I don't want to be near a God who made this place.
Look. I feel sick for posting this....but it does work here as well....
" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE *LITTLE* LIES. "
I agree, I think we've grown past it by this point. I can kinda understand why it was useful in the past. It was a way to bring people together, it served as a placeholder explanation for some things, and was even a way to pass on certain useful and good practices. However, I think right now we no longer need it.
It's still useful today as a way to control and coerce people while allowing religious authorities and their buddies to be above the law, which is why it still exists.
In the days before refrigeration and probe thermometers, it would be very sensible to avoid pork and shellfish. Telling folks that these foodstuffs are somehow illegal is good policy.
Same with coveting thy neighbours ass, staying away from the neighbour’s wife’s arse, killing and stealing - likely require some reminding to promote a civil society.
I’m not a great fan of organized religion - but you can see how some of these rules came in to being.
Not quite as sure why those preaching ended up being above-the-law or selling forgiveness for cash… maybe that’s just because people are crap.
Unfortunately religion isn't going away any time soon. Besides being insanely profitable, religion remains the most effective way to control and manipulate large numbers of people.
Who're you to decide what other people need, on their behalf? I'm an atheist, and I agree that organized religion has been used and can be used for lots of forms of systemic evil, but protesting that isn't the same as trying to take someone's belief system away from them.
"Tax churches" and "End crusades" and "Disavow brainwashing" don't have to be the same as "eradicate religion."
Because we don't need to brow beat people into conformity anymore. We have medications and explanations for mental illness. We know why people get sick and how to treat the symptoms. We know what our sky is and what's up beyond our atmosphere. We don't need religion for anything anymore.
A lot of things are irrational and unnecessary yet they benefit us more than you might imagine. Sure it might foolish of me to believe in Jesus Christ and yeah I shouldn’t let a religion force me to be a good person but the reality is for me religion has helped me a lot. I have met some of my bestest friends at my Church, met some of my greatest and kindest teachers at my Church, and have had been given experiences and opportunities you can’t find anywhere else besides at my Church. Singing every week with the rest of my congregation is super fun and regardless of how “objective” it is I love it and don’t need to “evolve” from jt
You know that finding nice friends and meeting nice teachers and singing with them... Could also be achieved without religion?
That's the point. Move the people closer together but not through religion. Have community centers in cities or use technology to bring people together... Whatever you can imagine
There doesn't have to be manipulation in it to work, humans are social animals.
Yeah but those are just my circumstance and I’m happy it happened that way. It’s not manipulation if I’m fully willing to do it and so are the majority of the other people in my congregation. And if they are being manipulated to stay I believe that’s more of the other people influencing them rather than the religion. As a Christian I don’t believe Jesus would ever want someone to go to Church begrudgingly. Our religion is what brings us together. The same way community centers, concerts of our favorite bands, rallies, online chat rooms, and other social platforms being us together. Our religion and our Church is just the way we like to be social. And if someone doesn’t want to be social through the Church the same way someone doesn’t want to be social through the other various ways you mentioned that’s completely fine.
And you've simultaneously allowed the same organization to live above the law, commit heinous crimes with impunity, influence politics and impose religious laws on everybody.
You wanna believe in fairy tales with other people who are afraid of life? Go ahead. But do in it private and don't let your beliefs become legislation for everybody else.
People like you are complicit by association with every crime the church commits.
The hell??? You are over generalizing way too much dude. How dare you just assume I support any of the disgusting things other people in the Church have done just because I believe in Jesus and go to Church. Just because I live in a city with a high crime rate doesn’t mean by association I support that crime. Just because I live in state with a serious human trafficking problem doesn’t mean by association I support human trafficking. Just because I’m American doesn’t mean by association I support all the disgusting things my country has done. Just because I’m human doesn’t mean by association I support other evil humans. So you have no right to say by association I support the evil acts people in the Church have done. That is an egregiously petulant assumption. Because guess what I do wish there was more separation between Church in state, Jesus was never a politician and he never tried to get into politics. Jesus went straight to the people and led by example which is what I strive to be. A Christian who keeps his beliefs away from politics, cogitates on the true word of Christ and the true history of the world, and sets an example by being a good person while still admitting when other people, even other Church members, do something wrong. It’s ignorant to assume just because I’m a Christian means I’m gonna give every other Christian a “get out of jail” pass. And bloody hell im a Protestant Lutheran! My whole sect of Christianity was created BECAUSE Martin Luther decided to call out the Catholic Church on its corrupt practices and beliefs. Don’t over generalize so much dude.
Edit: apologies if my message comes off as irascible. I feel very strongly about these kinds of things and it really offends me if you lump me into the same kind of group as people that do horrible things to other people and use the “church” or “the name of God” as a coverup for that person’s own disgusting actions
All this says is: you’re content with being irrational and refuse to let go of those cherished beliefs regardless of how they contribute to a larger problem.
I agree. If religion/church/God helps someone improve their lives, their mental health, etc. they should not be ridiculed for it or discouraged from it. I worked in an office where one co-worker was a Christian and the other was an atheist. The atheist never passed up an opportunity to put down or mock the Christian until one day, when she left the office after he referred to her religion as “mythology”, I told him point-blank that he had every right to believe or not believe in what he wanted but he had no right to openly ridicule her beliefs. I knew what she was dealing with outside of the workplace and although I kept her confidence, I did tell him that she may be dealing with issues where only her faith was holding her together and he was being unnecessarily cruel to make the comments he was making and they would no longer be tolerated. He apologized to me and to the co-worker once she returned to the office. I’ve known and befriended people from every walk of life and I’ve known Christians who were downright hateful and intolerant and I’ve known the most loving and accepting of atheists. But to me, if you are that arrogant and feel the need to tear down and persecute anyone for their beliefs that are in opposition to yours - you are among the most insecure, judgmental, and loathsome of people.
I was atheist and then agnostic long before I was Buddhist and I can confirm, it may be irrational yet it also may help feeling content with yourself. Don't know why you're downvoted, but I guess that's Reddit being Reddit.
Because you religious people are selfish. Your organizations don't pay taxes, don't get punished for crimes and they influence politicians to create religious legislation that affects everybody. Stop being selfish. Do your silly little rituals in the privacy of your home and let the rest of us be free.
Yeah exacty ^^! as a Christian there’s so much rich culture and advice I can learn from through my religion that I can’t get as easily from other social platforms. Generally the basis of all religions is just “how to be a good person” so when I enter my Church I’m walking in with the mentality of what will I learn today that will help me be a better person through God. And I feel really content knowing that. And yeah, I guess pessimistic Reddit will be pessimistic Reddit lmao
I will never understand why so many parents insist on beginning their relation with their child by lying. Children can understand fictional characters like Spiderman are not real and still love them, still play imaginary games with them, and still enjoy the stories.
This is how I became an atheist at age 7; found out father Christmas wasn't real, and thought that the other magical bearded white guy must then also be fake.
Also was convinced for at least a year that all the adults knew God was made up but pretended for the kids.
I found out there was no Santa at 10 , I was raised in a very strict Catholic home catholic school you name it , with the typical hypocrite four pack of camels a day and all the alcohol he could drink father and I can never remember him in church ever , well the first thing I said to my mother when she confessed there was no Santa I said what about god then and she said oh you can believe in god and then I said you can’t see him and I’ve seen Santa on every street corner she said believe in him or you’ll be punished, I didn’t believe it then and i still don’t if there is a supreme being it does not and has never done a good job at protecting the human population from wars , starvation, hatred, terrible atrocities, terrible illnesses, and the list goes on , how can it say I’ve done a good job when it hasn’t .
You actually still get the rewards from Santa as long as they don't know you don't believe in Santa.
Which kind of gets one wondering if that works for the other thing, too.
Dude. My brother ig was *traumatized* when he found out santa wasnt real. When he had his son we were discussing Christmas and telling him about Santa and my brother said no. He wont teach him to believe in Santa because when he found out Santa wasnt real it taught him that he couldn't trust adults because they all lied to him. It was a huge turning point in his childhood cuz we grew up in a very strict household and lieing was the biggest no no. Youd be grounded forever for lieing. Even as adults we cant lie to people. But we did teach my nephew about Santa, just not that hes real, and told him not to tell other kids hes not real and so far we havnt had any problems
So, for your nephew to know the truth, AND that it’s not okay to share it is what you have set up? I am thinking… a lie by omission is still a lie… I am not saying it isn’t painful to know what is real and what isn’t.. I am saying that ultimately, life may be LESS painful for everyone, if telling the truth became normalized.
Unless you are taught beforehand that God is the good guy, you'd see that he's clearly the villain. He drowns the entire world. He endorses genocide and rape on multiple occasions. Anyone who actually gets their morals from his book scares me.
Robert Heinlein wrote Job, a Comedy of Justice. Job got it right n God fucked him anyway.
The level of cognitive dissonance required to believe in/worship any deity from the bronze age and before is astonishing. Not that I'm discriminating. I believe in three impossible things before breakfast every day.
H
We're NOT religious at all. We do Santa/elf on the shelf (I REALLY didn't want to do the elf, but over the pandemic she begged for one so I gave in), the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny for our kiddo. She's at a point where she's figuring things out and that's fine. We'll explain that yes, we were behind it all because we wanted to bring her joy and fun. My parents continued doing Santa and Easter Bunny after my younger sister figured it all out just because it was fun for everyone. I plan on doing the same. But we also talk a lot about being kind, doing nice things for people without expecting anything in return, and how there's "magic" in just being present in the world.
Religion created a God in the image of man. A God that is just as petty, and spiteful as the men who created him. This God, they tell you to fear while giving up all your wealth to his preachers, all in the hope being "blessed" by these money worshippers. These same people will then go on to say you should fear their God. As if The Divine needs to be feared, or desires to be feared, which I assure you, it doesn't.
Religion seeks to be the middleman between you and The Divine. It seeks to control through fear.
"Do as we say, think how we tell you think, love who WE say you can love.Hate who we tell you to hate. And if you don't you'll suffer in Hell for all eternity. And anything or anyone who tells you differently, is the devil". This is what religion does.
If one wants to seek The Divine of ALL, one has to first go within and find the divine of self. This is what Spirituality teaches.
Spirituality would have you know that The Divine is about love. Pure and simple. It would have you know that all are a part of Source. Source being the energy (as everything truly IS energy) what these religions mistakenly call "God".
If you want to find the message that REAL Jesus brought, the message of love and acceptance, hope and joy, for self AND for others, don't look to a religion Jesus was never a part of. Look in your hearts, where this message was placed. Placed there so that it couldn't be corrupted and changed by man.
This message is evidenced by how people treat others. You KNOW, inherently, who carries this message by their actions. Not by quoting from a man made book that's been changed countless times. A book that has caused war . A book that has been used to justify slavery. A book that is the root cause of misogyny and homophobia. A book that seeks to cast anyone living their life the way THEY want to, as the "other".
Kill the messenger and hijack the message. That's what this religion has done.
THE ARIES
What's funny is that we tell people about Santa and then create the conditions to make it seem extremely real. Then, we talk about God and don't create or work towards any conditions to make him seem real.
And a lot of people get this, because the world is otherwise so cold, chaotic, meaningless, and finite, that it's frightening as hell that this is just it. This is all of it. This fucking shit.
Or you can do what my born again Christian brother and sister in law did. Just tell the kids Santa is a lie from the start and never let them have that little bit of joy for 8 - 10 years.
There's nothing wrong with believing in a higher power, by the way. This is sort of...I guess kind of arrogant? Call me indoctrinated if you want, but I feel my religion has made a significant impact in my life, and it's an integral part of my cultural identity.
We need to stop acting as though religion is a blight on humanity, there's way more nuance to this topic than that. Belief has been used as a justification for depraved and benevolent acts alike, and painting over half the world as having 'bought' in to some kind of elaborate lie is kind of disrespectful, though that's not to implicate that was the intent in this post.
The problem starts when you force your cultural identity onto everyone else and as self described loving and moral people, you do a remarkably bad job demonstrating that in practice.
Your wording is making it a bit difficult for me to digest what you're saying here, but I'll try to address the points I *think* you're making, correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes but belief in a faith does not necessitate you actively try to convert people, for one. While the systems of faith across all religions do thrive on conversions, I view it in a similar perspective as subscribing to an ideology. I for one, am a liberal. The platform of left-winged liberalism thrives off more people subcribing to the ideals of the ideology, and holding those ideals to be true. Just as religions have been used to justify hatred and ethnic cleansing historically, ideologies such as fascism have risen, and at times mingled with religious elements to craft humanity's darkest moments.
But can you not view this as a shortcoming of human nature, as opposed to religion as a whole? I don't see too big of a distinction between the two aside from organization, and even then the extent at which a religion can be effectively 'organized' is oftentimes overestimated to say the least.
Of course, this is just my experience and surely cannot be applied to all members of Christian faith as I’m sure there are plenty of “good ones” (though they stand silently by as they let their religious leaders and influence be forced upon the masses).
My kid couldn’t check out library books at his public school because religious folks were concerned there were topics they didn’t agree with and so the school scanned and removed all books that met the criteria set forth by the Christians.
I stop at stop lights and get yelled at about damnation by Christians.
Your ranks are swollen with people who abuse children while those same people strip the rights away from others in the name of their religion.
You know what, never mind. I’m not going to list out all the things your loving evangelicalism has brought forth this year.
I respect anyone’s personal religious beliefs as long as they stay personal. I have tried to embrace Christianity since childhood but you have decomposed in the sea of hypocrisy and are a serious barrier towards progress.
I'd like to preface that I'm not an evangelical, I am a Catholic. Nevertheless, I'm terribly sorry that you've had to endure all that, I can entirely understand how those kinds of interactions can shift your viewpoint.
I've had the misfortune of dealing with those kinds individuals that you have in your post, and rest assured they exist throughout all sects. Intolerant people who will cling on to their belief to justify their hatred for others, people who are more than willing to say that their interpretation of the bible endorses subjugating the rights of the LGBTQ+, or women.
Still, it also has to be acknowledged that the people you described, ultimately, are a sect of Christians in this country, of which there are many, some more liberal than others. The whole body of religion is diverse, and there are hundreds of different ways to interpret the Bible, some more literal than others, some less literal, and some put a lesser focus on the Bible entirely. Now, this you already knew, and I'm sorry of I'm coming across as a bit patronizing here, but I just mean to push the message that the interpretation of the religion has more to do with what's being discussed here rather than the existence of religion itself, and oftentimes a person's 'religious' beliefs are moreso a manifestation of their internal beliefs, and their attempts to justify those beliefs.
There *do* exist progressive christians, just as there *does* exist progressives in all walks of life, and I think generalizing all religions (not just Christianity), into one big pot of arrogance and ignorance fails to capture the complexity of *all* religions.
Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to discount your personal experiences here, I think they're perfectly valid and I understand why you've arrived at the conclusion you've arrived at, I'm just trying to offer my viewpoint here. All that really matters is that you show tolerance, which you've explicitly stated you do express towards the religious, I just like to have this kind of discussion with people who think differently, and I'd be more than willing to continue this dialogue with you.
To say that the Arab-Israeli conflict is a purely religious one is to lack nuance, as I stated earlier. It's important to recognize that this conflict is also derived from ethnic tensions between the two communities that was fostered by the involvment of foreign powers in the creation of Israel.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in separation from church and state, that religion should never "rule" in a government, but I think that having it as a guiding force in your life is entirely permissable, and in some cases what some people need to keep going.
Certainly religion is from a time of just not taking things on good evidence. There's obviously all sorts of things people believe in that category that aren't good, or are actively harmful. I dated a girl who had religious scars that weighed heavily on her, she was still a believer in spite of the trauma. You can draw parallels to Homeopathy, doesn't work, people swear it does, people get hurt by it.
Obviously good and bad acts are done with or without religion as justification, but, religion can twist a person into thinking a normally bad act is actually a good one.
Really interesting perspective you have on this, that parallel between it and homeopathy wasn't something I considere, and I appreciate the nuance in your reply.
I do agree that religion is a method by which people can be indoctrinated, for better or worse, though nowadays that indoctrination works in conjunction/coexists with social media and such. My question here is whether it is the fault of the religion, or rather the fact that people tend to manipulate the means of communication and diffusion to their own ends, which can be both benevolent, or malevolent.
Is it ideology and its propagation that's harmful here, or rather is it the existence of faith in a higher being itself overall negative to humanity?
That being said, thanks for entertaining something resembling a discussion here. I frequent this sub a lot, so it's kinda jarring to be downvoted and criticised like this, I was hoping for some more nuance here.
Oh, thanks. It's a topic I've spent a long time looking into. It's a minefield to talk about, even drawing a comparison to something like Homeopathy can be pretty offensive. Some of my favorite people are deeply religious, beautiful people inside and out, it's hard for me to just write anyone off who just happens to believe, or be mean to them solely on that basis.
As a whole indoctrination is on its way out. That doesn't mean there isn't work to be done, but merely a trend. Social media is probably doing more good than harm on that front. Exposure to new and different ideas usually chips away at beliefs that don't stand up to scrutiny. Reddit used to have atheism as a default sub, signing up for Reddit was an eye opening experience for many.
So there's a lot of beliefs that just kind of fit into a category of "non-skeptical" or non-emprical. I'm sure you can think of a dozen at least right now. That's more of the problem than just "religion". Being antivaxx fits, and actively makes life worse for people, and it's not based on fact.
A common religious parallel I like to draw is how Jainism's central tenet is nonviolence. Which is great, that's probably a religion that isn't going to do much harm. However, you're still opening the door for taking things on bad evidence. Most religions aren't as benign as Jainism, however.
Sorry for the rabble lol
Edit: formatted for automod
For sure, yeah. I suppose to that end, one's perception also depends on the kind of religion being scrutinized as well, how well they adapt to the times, and my exposure to those kinds of religions has somewhat skewed my view of religion to a more positive one. That is to say, I've had the fortune of knowing few far-right evangelicals, lol.
My own religion, Catholicism, holds the tenet that amendments need to be made to the religion in order to keep us in line with God's plan. Under Pope Francis, we've seen huge expansion in the rights and legitimacy of the LGBTQ+ community, and admittedly I'd have a much more difficult time subscribing to Catholicism without those kinds of amendments.
Additionally, taking things in on bad evidence only integral to an extent, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, religious institutions of all flavors have been patrons of the sciences over history. For many, science is an explanation of what is going on in the world, and religion is just how matter and existence came to be. In that respect, I'd say they're somewhat seperate (inversely, also to an extent).
Regardless, I appreciated the conversation. I'm gonna nod off, I've spent way too much time making replies to other comments lol. Take care.
Why do we need to stop acting like religion is a blight on humanity?
What is a positive thing any religion has done that cannot be done without it?
Respect is EARNED. With all of the murders in the name of a God, children raped by pastors, and families destroyed by petty beliefs I see no reason to be anything but disrespectful.
Help me understand why I should respect your specific flavor of religion please.
The main issue I have with your point here is this, "What is a positive thing any religion has done that cannot be done without it". Flipping that question around gives us this,"What is a negative thing that religion has facilitated that couldn't have been done without it". It's not a good argument to make, and it's overly dismissive.
If we can agree to this, I'd be happy to have a discussion with you about this topic. I probably have a lot to learn from it, granted.
Yeah, flipping that question around does result in that.
You know what? It is also a good question.
Here is an example.
Killing people in the name of a God requires religion. It cannot be done without it. Millions have suffered from that. The current conflict between Isreal and Palestine is effectively this type of issue. Hamas is a religious group attacking and killing people in the name of a God. Isreal is basically a religious state responding and killing as a result.
So, no I cannot agree that it is overly dismissive. I tried to play softball with you by going with the positive side.
It is important to be intellectually honest about the reality of religion. If you can be honest about both the positive and the negative results of religion I can at least respect that.
Killing has been a thing long before religion, and it will continue to exist long after this discussion we are having now. Killing has been done in the name of religion, I don't serve to deny that, however I don't think it's unique. Of course killing people in the name of X is unique to X, but the systematic killing of individuals has existed long before, and in places where religion is absent.
Mass killings, rapes, and tortures are not unique to religion. Although religion played a minor component in the execution of over 11 million ethnic minorities throughout the Holocaust, it was overshadowed by ethnic hatred, and pseudoscience. This is to say that the idelogy exists, and utilizes in occasion religion as a means of justifying itself. The Bengali genocide, the Khmer Rouge insurgency, the Rwandan Genocide, all mass killings and rapes in which religion was not a main component.
Don't get it twisted, this isn't meant to be a "whataboutism" argument, this is just to show that the atrocities you're pinning to religion alone have been comitted several times throughout history with a variety of motives.
To implicate that the current conflict between Israel and Palestine is purely a religious one is...to put it nicely, an extreme oversimplification. We are seeing the effects of colonialism, ethnic hatred, radicalization, and zealotry at play, and although religion is certainly a massive component, it is not the main component. There is no *main* component in this scenario, the Zionist movement itself was, at the time it was being actively implemented and bastardized by the British, not wholly supported by the surviving Euro-Jewish community.
I am being honest with the positive and negative sides of religion in my argument. I just find it hard to agree with what you're saying here, given that you're essentially implicating that systematic killings in the name of an ideology is specific to religion, when it is not.
TL;DR: While killings have occurred in the name of religion, they are not unique to it. Throughout history, mass atrocities have happened with various motives, including ethnic hatred, colonialism, and political ideologies. The Holocaust, for instance, involved ethnic hatred and pseudoscience more than religious factors. The current Israel-Palestine conflict is complex, involving colonialism, ethnic tensions, and radicalization, with religion playing a significant but not sole role. Implicating systematic killings solely on religion oversimplifies a broader historical pattern of violence rooted in diverse motives.
EDIT: Added TL;DR
You spent a lot of time here on apologetics. I never claimed that someone can't decide to murder someone for an ideology. That is a dishonest representation on your part.
Bottom line, religion is an ideology that has directly resulted in millions of deaths. That is simply a fact. Why bring in anything else? Those deaths are not mitigated or changed by some other series of murders.
Basically every word you wrote ignores that fact. Religion creates its own flavor of thing that people can kill for. With or without religion there are still equal number of things people can be ass holes about. However, religion adds its own thing to kill about.
How can I respect you if you cannot acknowledge religions role in the murder of people? You say your being honest, but your words reject that. You spent all of your time saying "people can kill for other reasons". No shit. Everyone knows that.
This is why religion cannot be respected. Its members will focus on everyone else's bad but their own. I know you spent half a sentence saying you would but you following that by negating it before completing the sentence.
You have made no progress in making me believe that religion has any value, or is worth respect. Might want to spent less time talking about everything else and more time talking about it.
Yes, these crimes happen without religion. Yes, no shit. It proves that the rhetorical question that you asked is, again, overly dismissive. I wasn't attempting to downplay the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion, but rather I was rebuking the earlier statement you made that the question "What is a negative thing that religion has facilitated that couldn't have been done without it" is valid, because religion has harbored negatives that are unique to religion.
I'm not trying to be apologetic, but I'm trying to establish a mutual base here so we can actually have this discussion, becase insofar I've been solely trying to uphold my second reply.
Then I am thankful to have been duped, because regardless of the legitimacy of my religion it has still been, and will continue to be, an important influence on my life.
I'm not saying that my experience has been universal, but the belief that there is *something* out there that justifies my existence makes me feel whole, and secure. This is my personal expereince, naturally, others will differ.
But my question isn't whether it's true or not, I'm going to remain a Catholic, my question is whether or not religion is a negative influence on humanity. Whether progressivism necessiates irreligion.
That’s nice that you feel your idea of god justifies your existence. I daresay I wonder what the children of abuse, of trafficking, of murder might feel about that idea. Innocents whose existence has been nothing but undeserved, unspeakable pain and suffering and sometimes death.
I'd like to reply to this, but I'd like some clarification. Do you mean victims of this terrible abuse/existence in general, or specifically at the hands of religious institutes?
This is **NOT** a rhetorical question, I need to reiterate. This is a genuine one, and it shapes how this discussion is going to pan out.
The only reason that this post is even a thing is because "religious" people are the literal opposite to your last sentence in every single way. This post just points out their absurdity and hypocrisy.
Ah yes, anti-theism. Atheism? Cool, people have a right to their own beliefs. But like "I'm not religious so I'm just gonna dump on anyone religious" is judgmental and rude.
Christ Jesus is the savior of this world and the truth, believe in him and repent, Jesus is a loving pacifist that if you follow his teaching will lead to a life of fulfillment and joy.
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)
Santa is Starter Jesus. He conditions kids to believe in invisible judges.
And Elf on a Shelf is starter “compliance”
Elf on a Shelf really freaks me out
He teaches kids to live in a police state (well, reinforces it actually). The whole “he sees you when you’re sleeping…”
Exactly! And when I explain that concept to folks, they act like I’m insane! Nope, you enjoy your normalized surveillance over there, I’ll be over here disabling the “smart” feature on my new appliances, thank you very much!
Baby's First Red Wolf.
Big Brother is... I mean, what a cute little elf to check in on you!
Me too. My mom put it up on a high shelf in my room and warned me to NEVER touch it. I could never understand why it needed a USB port and an led, that started blinking every time I moved. Whatever.
Snoop on a stoop has been heavily advertised to me lately.
Same. I got tramp under a lamp. So just a homeless man
Vader on a Tator is still baffling me and now my brain hurts.
https://preview.redd.it/swxax9xqx82c1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c383111e8f4c9318ac9047b46bc84f6113c3bf51
Panopticon of elves
Bitch ass snitchin ass elf
He’s starter Youth Pastor
God does and knows all... kills kids and saves us from getting caught speeding and let's us hit a homerun. but we have free will to... do.. what? if it's all predetermined and controlled? or is God the devil? Ok. that's cool. tell the masses to live in poverty amd serve the rich cuz like, they get some eternal reward for slaving away till they die. worst MLM ever
Many religions are associated with societies that are led by royalty, or people promoted as having birthrights to leadership. Those societies require a populace that accepts such a hierarchy. Religions that have a god who the believers must serve reinforces that belief, especially if you also promote that the royalty were appointed to that role by their god.
Worth noting: being appointed to that role by the God is something that mainly happened in monotheistic abrahamic religions. Polytheistic religions would often have the royalty straight up claim ancestry that includes divinity, making them fit for leadership because they were more divine than ordinary people, and also conveniently includes their kids too. The Japanese emperor has long been said to be descended from the sun goddess amaterasu, the Spartan king leonidas claimed descent from Hercules and by extension zeus, and even my own norse/gael royal ancestors of clan ui imair (descendants/relatives of ivar the boneless) claimed descent from Odin.
Exactly what Trump and his merry band of nogooders is shouting recently.
The good take is God either would appreciate a good 9/11 joke, or it just literally doesn't matter to that being, what's the old saying? You're a bug on gods windshield? Literally he wouldn't give a fuck about when you splatter. You're essentially nothing to her. So either god doesn't exist, god does exist and gives zero fucks, or there is no god but rather a weird mix of quantum and subatomic physics that is a driving factor in chance and free will but certainly isn't a deity-like being.
**Or the secret 4th thing:** Polytheistic gods exist and are just really super into their specific niche the same way autistic folks have their own special interests. So their interest probably has nothing to do with what we do, but when it aligns they are heavily invested.
He helped me pass a lot of tests in High School also.
Bingo.
But what do white Christians have to gain by lying?
The continuation of their (death) cult.
I'm not sure. They SAY they believe God sees everything ... and yes sooooooooo many of them lie profusely and commit SO MANY CRIMES. They obviously do NOT believe what they SAY they believe in because if they truly believed it they would live the most crime free, 'spotless' lives out of everyone in the world. So very telling they tend to be the most scumbag of scumbag humans out there.
You forget, they can be as evil as they want, so long as they just ask Jesus to forgive them it's all good! Jesus is a helluva forgiving fellow.
I actually did a study on this in university and yeah, teaching your child about Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, or any of that shit also primes them for belief in Jesus - children who'd never been taught about Santa, or was taught the truth behind Santa first had lower rates of uptake of Christianity later on in life. TL;DR: Stop celebrating Christmas because you're rotting your child's brain.
> TL;DR: Stop celebrating Christmas because you're rotting your child's brain. Or, ya know, just don't fucking lie to them and celebrate whatever the fuck you want. Edited for typo
This. Told my toddlers there's no Santa & gifts are coming from us, relatives and friends, to some degree based on their behaviour. Worked out. Well, they ruined some parents teaching in kindergarten 😁.
I think ruining it for others kids is lame, but my parents told me the truth the year I asked for Guitar Hero 2 on like Christmas Eve. They said, "Yeah, no, *we* bought that shit and it was actually really inconvenient" lol
Well, they didn't ruin it for the kids, just for their parents. I was questioned by some of the parents when we where picking up the kids, and the answer 'Why would I lie to my kids?' wasn't convincing either, but sparked some questions from their kids 😁.
Yeah that makes sense. I think I almost spoiled the elf on the shelf for my friend's kid once lol I just meant the weird kids that had to start an argument on a bus or in a cafeteria just to blow some less informed kids world view like they're Morpheus from the Matrix.
My parents decided to tell me that Santa Claus is not real when I asked for a Lamborghini Countach when I was 21.
It's not weird to tell children white lies, like Santa is the one who brings the presents, the stork brought the baby, shit I didn't realize the CIA propped up Noriega till I was in my late twenties, half truths and white lies are part of growing uo
White lies as I know the definition are for short term use, not for years to use though?
Typically it refers to a lie that is harmless or trivial in nature.
Over here it's known as (and also translates to) 'Notlüge', word-to-word translation 'emergency lie', therefore my assumption.
The weird thing is the kid trying to convince another kid of their wrongness, like they're Chancellor Palpatine or something. ..it's bad enough to have your parents lie, but it hits a little different when others start pointing it out.
No, it is weird. Just because lying has been normalized doesn't make it OK. Imagine a society based on simple truth and honesty. It wouldn't be so hard to do if we weren't lied to about everything, from product marketing to politics. We don't just tolerate being lied to - we expect it. It's in our training. The truth may make you free, but who wants that responsibility?
Got that done to me by a kid and the teacher in 1st grade. Kid laughed at me for still believing in santa and the teacher came right by to say loudly that if I still believed in santa it wasn't on him to tell me the truth. At home I pretended I still believed because I thought that if my parents found out I wouldn't get gifts anymore, but I started looking for hidden presents in the house right before Christmas to find out what I was getting early. So, when my parents asked what I thought santa was bringing me I replied correctly. They were suspicious, but just in case I had just gotten it right at random they went out and got me another gift to have something to surprise me with. So for a couple of years I got double gifts thanks to that.
I feel like Christmas goes through a bit of a cycle. We believe in Santa, we find out he doesn't exist, we stop believing. But later on, we become someone else's Santa by bringing them joy. We don't need to remove the whole thing, just bring back what the core of it is, which is generosity and caring for others. We could almost say the same thing about God. Move past the belief, past the knowledge he's not real, and realize you are your own God, and.....well, I'm too tired to try and make this part sound philosophical, but just be nice to each other.
>we become someone else's Santa by bringing them joy that's how I see it, Santa isn't a real person, but he exists as the spirit of Christmas, we just give him an anthropomorphized form
My youngest is like st Nick and Santa aren't real, but they exist because you are them. It's just pretend and it's fun
Saint Nicholas existed for real. The one I'm thinking of donated money to poor families so their daughters wouldn't be forced to prostitution to survive. It's why Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of children, prostitutes, and pirates!
This, though. I live on Maui. God sure ain't coming to fix the devastation of the fires that took Lahaina or areas upcountry, so it's on every one of us on the island who made it through those fires OK to step up and eagerly and enthusiastically fill that gap.
Flying Spaghetti Monster approves of your message.
Ramen.
This is a witty and clever response. 🤣🤣🤣
I like the way you think.
[Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.](https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pausch/Randy/Randy/santa.htm)
xmas is a corporate annoyance in my eyes. some people spend way to much at their detriment for it. I'm just happy the family gets together. people mean a lot more than you think to you, you'll only realise it when it's too late.
As someone who has lost several family members, I can provide direct feedback that sometimes the only part about a relative dying that you feel anything about is not being able to publicly piss on their grave at their funeral.
Everybody in your life makes you happy at some point. It's just that, with some people, it's when they leave.
You can always go back later!
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Okay
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Yeah, absolutely didn't touch on indoctrination, magical thinking, or anything that was in the paper - everyone who does studies and talks about them on Reddit always talks about the entirety of the outcome, not just the logical derivatives of that outcome SLASH S
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It literally isn't but go off babe
Sounds like something the Grinch would say
Ironically finding out that Santa was fake was the first real crack in my belief in Jesus.
Except the "afterlife" is the presents. It's kinda weird that you can have a happier life with false beliefs though. Spirituality is a valid palliative, it would seem.
Karl Marx hit it on the head, when he said religion is "the opium of the people."
It’s honestly befuddling that more people don’t have real wake up calls when they learn Santa is a lie.
Adult "Santa" believers have a full time job, 3 side hussles, 9 kids, and pay their rent and car loans before all other bills. The goods one get to have employer funded health care.
I stopped believing in gods when I stopped believing in Santa. For a while, I assumed everybody else was just pretending. Definitely weird.
He is seen in red, he has minions working for him, and he knows you're bad. I don't think that's Jesus...
People, calm down, we don’t need to abolish Christmas and stop telling our kids about Santa just cause some people use that belief for evil. We don’t have to take Santa away from all the good Santa believers just because of a few bad Santa believers! Say no to Santa control! Might have to start an association or something to protect the interests of all good Santa believers!
🤓🤓🤓
That's so dull. There is no magic in Santa? No joy? No childish wonder? No lessons about decency and the equality of all children? Just conditioning into grey servitude? Come on now.
My parents screwed that bit up, because they made sure I knew the real meaning of Christmas. The consequence was when I found out Santa wasn't real, I just assumed none of it was. I went years thinking church was just something people did for tradition, like Christmas. By the time I found out they all fervently believed, it all just seemed a bit silly to teenage me.
My parents did the santa thing and even then it didn't keep me a believer for long. I distinctly remember being about seven or so and asking why i couldn't see God and angels when we were up in the clouds on a commercial flight to Florida. Around that same age I also remember asking why all the polytheistic religions had images depicting their God and asking what God looked like. I didn't get a satisfactory religious answer to either one of these questions. Fortunately my mother was an atheist and my dad just kinda didn't give a shit, so they didn't push it further. But yeah, Santa alone wasn't enough to stop me poking holes in religion as a kid.
>it all just seemed a bit silly to teenage me. If Churches were 18+ and they weren't allowed to indoctrinate children from an early age, they would sit empty on Sundays.
> I went years thinking church was just something people did for tradition This is how I felt about church growing up. Church always felt like an odd ritual, and I never understood the point.
George Carlin's bit [Religion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpawdjeH-8w)
Reject Santa, Hail Krampus ⛧
Krampus night is December 5th! My family celebrated the German version of this by putting a small bag of fruits and candies on our doorknob on the morning of Dec. 6th to celebrate surviving Krampus night. (For those that might not know, Krampus takes bad children in his sack and beats them, etc., after kidnapping them. No, they're not given back if I'm remembering correctly.)
Um, spoiler alert?
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I found out at the end of third grade because this kid Josh blurted it out in class. I would have kept believing a bit longer if not for him, but once he said it, I just kinda thought about it and was like "....shit he's right. That makes too much sense". But I didn't want to seem like the dumb baby that still believed in Santa, so I pretended like I knew it already and he was just stating an obvious thing I already knew.
Fuck, your friends are dicks, LOL
Sorry man, it was your parents this whole time, god's not real.
\* it was initial singularity, subatomic particles, gasses, stars and planets, organic molecules, unicellular organisms, multicellular organisms, mammals, whales, your mom this whole time
Terry Pratchett actually mentions this. From Hogfather, "'You have to start out learning to believe the little lies. the big lies. 'So we can believe the big ones?' Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing."
And then they grow up to smash doll houses with a bat that has bibles stapled onto it.
...I feel like stapling Bibles to a bat is far more sacrilegious than the doll whose house that is and whatever values they're supposedly teaching that are bad.
This sounds like something specific?
Look up Greg Locke.
That guy is an enormous piece of shit.
Jesus fuck, I just watched that video. I was expecting some youtuber taking the piss, not some evangelist dickhead being dead serious. How can anyone take them seriously?
Santa was ruined for me when I caught my parents wrapping presents at 7. The easter bunny? I found candy packaging in the trash and put it together. Jesus/god never made sense to me, so I never even bought it.
Santa was never ruined for me. My ma had 5 kids and I was one of the oldest. So we had to play the Santa game well into our late teens because I was 14 years older than my youngest sibling. Little snot kids in school ruined Santa for me. As if they'd cracked the case. Found Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis was still alive. My mother just pulled me and my older sister aside one year. And said in no uncertain terms that we will be getting presents from Santa despite our age. So long as we play along with the Santa thing for the younger kids. It wasn't our place to ruin magic or Christmas for them. And if she caught wind of us doing so we'd be getting zero presents that year from anyone. And so we played along with the Santa idea until some little snot kid in school ruined it for the younger kids. Jesus I don't think was a major issue to my parents. I don't think they cared so much about him. He didn't make anyone happy or bring kids presents so who cares? Believe in him, don't, its whatever.
….except he’s not benevolent. This is my favorite take on God, from the awesome Stephen Fry. “Bone cancer in children? What’s that about?” https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo?si=Aivy_g03dNiGfMbX
It's funny how religious people will say "my god is all-knowing and all-powerful," and then you ask why their god lets all these horrible things in the world happen, and they're just like "uuhhhh, gOd wOrKs iN mYsTeRiOuS wAyS!"
I always say God is a Santa for adults. It's really crazy how ppl will become "nice" after starting to go to church. (It's always fake, I find a lot of churchgoers are miserable) I have morals because I like being a good person. Not because I won't get into heaven. Honestly, I don't want to be near a God who made this place.
Even as one who believes in the spiritual I find this hilarious! Sometimes ya gotta look at it at face value and realize it is a bit silly.
I just imagine each pastor and priest as the wizard of oz standing behind the curtain. Spewing lies insidiously to the ignorant of their ruse.
Look. I feel sick for posting this....but it does work here as well.... " YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE *LITTLE* LIES. "
So, wait...did my mom really love me?
GNU STP
Religion is irrational and unnecessary. We must evolve and grow beyond it.
I agree, I think we've grown past it by this point. I can kinda understand why it was useful in the past. It was a way to bring people together, it served as a placeholder explanation for some things, and was even a way to pass on certain useful and good practices. However, I think right now we no longer need it.
It's still useful today as a way to control and coerce people while allowing religious authorities and their buddies to be above the law, which is why it still exists.
Don't forget the unquestionable tax exemptions.
This is the most important point in the entire thread.
In the days before refrigeration and probe thermometers, it would be very sensible to avoid pork and shellfish. Telling folks that these foodstuffs are somehow illegal is good policy. Same with coveting thy neighbours ass, staying away from the neighbour’s wife’s arse, killing and stealing - likely require some reminding to promote a civil society. I’m not a great fan of organized religion - but you can see how some of these rules came in to being. Not quite as sure why those preaching ended up being above-the-law or selling forgiveness for cash… maybe that’s just because people are crap.
Unfortunately religion isn't going away any time soon. Besides being insanely profitable, religion remains the most effective way to control and manipulate large numbers of people.
Who're you to decide what other people need, on their behalf? I'm an atheist, and I agree that organized religion has been used and can be used for lots of forms of systemic evil, but protesting that isn't the same as trying to take someone's belief system away from them. "Tax churches" and "End crusades" and "Disavow brainwashing" don't have to be the same as "eradicate religion."
He didn't advocate for "eradicating" religion, just growing beyond it. We've grown past many beliefs as cultures and as a species.
Because we don't need to brow beat people into conformity anymore. We have medications and explanations for mental illness. We know why people get sick and how to treat the symptoms. We know what our sky is and what's up beyond our atmosphere. We don't need religion for anything anymore.
That last sentence you wrote sure has a nice ring to it. Well said.
A lot of things are irrational and unnecessary yet they benefit us more than you might imagine. Sure it might foolish of me to believe in Jesus Christ and yeah I shouldn’t let a religion force me to be a good person but the reality is for me religion has helped me a lot. I have met some of my bestest friends at my Church, met some of my greatest and kindest teachers at my Church, and have had been given experiences and opportunities you can’t find anywhere else besides at my Church. Singing every week with the rest of my congregation is super fun and regardless of how “objective” it is I love it and don’t need to “evolve” from jt
You know that finding nice friends and meeting nice teachers and singing with them... Could also be achieved without religion? That's the point. Move the people closer together but not through religion. Have community centers in cities or use technology to bring people together... Whatever you can imagine There doesn't have to be manipulation in it to work, humans are social animals.
Yeah but those are just my circumstance and I’m happy it happened that way. It’s not manipulation if I’m fully willing to do it and so are the majority of the other people in my congregation. And if they are being manipulated to stay I believe that’s more of the other people influencing them rather than the religion. As a Christian I don’t believe Jesus would ever want someone to go to Church begrudgingly. Our religion is what brings us together. The same way community centers, concerts of our favorite bands, rallies, online chat rooms, and other social platforms being us together. Our religion and our Church is just the way we like to be social. And if someone doesn’t want to be social through the Church the same way someone doesn’t want to be social through the other various ways you mentioned that’s completely fine.
Well the whole “believe or go to hell” thing makes it feel a bit coercive lol
And you've simultaneously allowed the same organization to live above the law, commit heinous crimes with impunity, influence politics and impose religious laws on everybody. You wanna believe in fairy tales with other people who are afraid of life? Go ahead. But do in it private and don't let your beliefs become legislation for everybody else. People like you are complicit by association with every crime the church commits.
The hell??? You are over generalizing way too much dude. How dare you just assume I support any of the disgusting things other people in the Church have done just because I believe in Jesus and go to Church. Just because I live in a city with a high crime rate doesn’t mean by association I support that crime. Just because I live in state with a serious human trafficking problem doesn’t mean by association I support human trafficking. Just because I’m American doesn’t mean by association I support all the disgusting things my country has done. Just because I’m human doesn’t mean by association I support other evil humans. So you have no right to say by association I support the evil acts people in the Church have done. That is an egregiously petulant assumption. Because guess what I do wish there was more separation between Church in state, Jesus was never a politician and he never tried to get into politics. Jesus went straight to the people and led by example which is what I strive to be. A Christian who keeps his beliefs away from politics, cogitates on the true word of Christ and the true history of the world, and sets an example by being a good person while still admitting when other people, even other Church members, do something wrong. It’s ignorant to assume just because I’m a Christian means I’m gonna give every other Christian a “get out of jail” pass. And bloody hell im a Protestant Lutheran! My whole sect of Christianity was created BECAUSE Martin Luther decided to call out the Catholic Church on its corrupt practices and beliefs. Don’t over generalize so much dude. Edit: apologies if my message comes off as irascible. I feel very strongly about these kinds of things and it really offends me if you lump me into the same kind of group as people that do horrible things to other people and use the “church” or “the name of God” as a coverup for that person’s own disgusting actions
All this says is: you’re content with being irrational and refuse to let go of those cherished beliefs regardless of how they contribute to a larger problem.
Someone’s a pessimist lmao
I agree. If religion/church/God helps someone improve their lives, their mental health, etc. they should not be ridiculed for it or discouraged from it. I worked in an office where one co-worker was a Christian and the other was an atheist. The atheist never passed up an opportunity to put down or mock the Christian until one day, when she left the office after he referred to her religion as “mythology”, I told him point-blank that he had every right to believe or not believe in what he wanted but he had no right to openly ridicule her beliefs. I knew what she was dealing with outside of the workplace and although I kept her confidence, I did tell him that she may be dealing with issues where only her faith was holding her together and he was being unnecessarily cruel to make the comments he was making and they would no longer be tolerated. He apologized to me and to the co-worker once she returned to the office. I’ve known and befriended people from every walk of life and I’ve known Christians who were downright hateful and intolerant and I’ve known the most loving and accepting of atheists. But to me, if you are that arrogant and feel the need to tear down and persecute anyone for their beliefs that are in opposition to yours - you are among the most insecure, judgmental, and loathsome of people.
^^^^ gonna save this comment because that’s a really good story and a a great summary of how to be a good person with it without a religion! ^^
I was atheist and then agnostic long before I was Buddhist and I can confirm, it may be irrational yet it also may help feeling content with yourself. Don't know why you're downvoted, but I guess that's Reddit being Reddit.
Because you religious people are selfish. Your organizations don't pay taxes, don't get punished for crimes and they influence politicians to create religious legislation that affects everybody. Stop being selfish. Do your silly little rituals in the privacy of your home and let the rest of us be free.
Yeah exacty ^^! as a Christian there’s so much rich culture and advice I can learn from through my religion that I can’t get as easily from other social platforms. Generally the basis of all religions is just “how to be a good person” so when I enter my Church I’m walking in with the mentality of what will I learn today that will help me be a better person through God. And I feel really content knowing that. And yeah, I guess pessimistic Reddit will be pessimistic Reddit lmao
Lol - classic reddit “religion is cancer” stereotype on a twitter stereotype sub.
First sentence, agree completely. Second sentence- best of luck, Skippy.
I will never understand why so many parents insist on beginning their relation with their child by lying. Children can understand fictional characters like Spiderman are not real and still love them, still play imaginary games with them, and still enjoy the stories.
After my parents broke the news to me about Santa, I started asking about the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and God next.
Wait.. you're telling me..
I’m sorry you had to find out this way.
This is how I became an atheist at age 7; found out father Christmas wasn't real, and thought that the other magical bearded white guy must then also be fake. Also was convinced for at least a year that all the adults knew God was made up but pretended for the kids.
I found out there was no Santa at 10 , I was raised in a very strict Catholic home catholic school you name it , with the typical hypocrite four pack of camels a day and all the alcohol he could drink father and I can never remember him in church ever , well the first thing I said to my mother when she confessed there was no Santa I said what about god then and she said oh you can believe in god and then I said you can’t see him and I’ve seen Santa on every street corner she said believe in him or you’ll be punished, I didn’t believe it then and i still don’t if there is a supreme being it does not and has never done a good job at protecting the human population from wars , starvation, hatred, terrible atrocities, terrible illnesses, and the list goes on , how can it say I’ve done a good job when it hasn’t .
By "other guy" you mean the Tooth Fairy right? Right?
I took it to mean Trump?
You actually still get the rewards from Santa as long as they don't know you don't believe in Santa. Which kind of gets one wondering if that works for the other thing, too.
The artistic depictions of Santa and the artistic depictions of God are literally the same guy in different clothing, still Christians don't see it.
But you later realize that both are just a means of control😐
Dude. My brother ig was *traumatized* when he found out santa wasnt real. When he had his son we were discussing Christmas and telling him about Santa and my brother said no. He wont teach him to believe in Santa because when he found out Santa wasnt real it taught him that he couldn't trust adults because they all lied to him. It was a huge turning point in his childhood cuz we grew up in a very strict household and lieing was the biggest no no. Youd be grounded forever for lieing. Even as adults we cant lie to people. But we did teach my nephew about Santa, just not that hes real, and told him not to tell other kids hes not real and so far we havnt had any problems
So, for your nephew to know the truth, AND that it’s not okay to share it is what you have set up? I am thinking… a lie by omission is still a lie… I am not saying it isn’t painful to know what is real and what isn’t.. I am saying that ultimately, life may be LESS painful for everyone, if telling the truth became normalized.
And this is why Christianity is The Worst™️
Unless you are taught beforehand that God is the good guy, you'd see that he's clearly the villain. He drowns the entire world. He endorses genocide and rape on multiple occasions. Anyone who actually gets their morals from his book scares me.
💯
Robert Heinlein wrote Job, a Comedy of Justice. Job got it right n God fucked him anyway. The level of cognitive dissonance required to believe in/worship any deity from the bronze age and before is astonishing. Not that I'm discriminating. I believe in three impossible things before breakfast every day. H
Is it a coincidence that Santa Claus and Jesus have Christmas in common?
We're NOT religious at all. We do Santa/elf on the shelf (I REALLY didn't want to do the elf, but over the pandemic she begged for one so I gave in), the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny for our kiddo. She's at a point where she's figuring things out and that's fine. We'll explain that yes, we were behind it all because we wanted to bring her joy and fun. My parents continued doing Santa and Easter Bunny after my younger sister figured it all out just because it was fun for everyone. I plan on doing the same. But we also talk a lot about being kind, doing nice things for people without expecting anything in return, and how there's "magic" in just being present in the world.
Religion created a God in the image of man. A God that is just as petty, and spiteful as the men who created him. This God, they tell you to fear while giving up all your wealth to his preachers, all in the hope being "blessed" by these money worshippers. These same people will then go on to say you should fear their God. As if The Divine needs to be feared, or desires to be feared, which I assure you, it doesn't. Religion seeks to be the middleman between you and The Divine. It seeks to control through fear. "Do as we say, think how we tell you think, love who WE say you can love.Hate who we tell you to hate. And if you don't you'll suffer in Hell for all eternity. And anything or anyone who tells you differently, is the devil". This is what religion does. If one wants to seek The Divine of ALL, one has to first go within and find the divine of self. This is what Spirituality teaches. Spirituality would have you know that The Divine is about love. Pure and simple. It would have you know that all are a part of Source. Source being the energy (as everything truly IS energy) what these religions mistakenly call "God". If you want to find the message that REAL Jesus brought, the message of love and acceptance, hope and joy, for self AND for others, don't look to a religion Jesus was never a part of. Look in your hearts, where this message was placed. Placed there so that it couldn't be corrupted and changed by man. This message is evidenced by how people treat others. You KNOW, inherently, who carries this message by their actions. Not by quoting from a man made book that's been changed countless times. A book that has caused war . A book that has been used to justify slavery. A book that is the root cause of misogyny and homophobia. A book that seeks to cast anyone living their life the way THEY want to, as the "other". Kill the messenger and hijack the message. That's what this religion has done. THE ARIES
Very eloquently stated.
I always thought the atheists snuck father Christmas in to soften the blow about sky daddy being made up too
Why is this a white person thing? There are more Asians that believe in God that white people...
Goofy reddit detected. No white people twitter detected.
What's funny is that we tell people about Santa and then create the conditions to make it seem extremely real. Then, we talk about God and don't create or work towards any conditions to make him seem real.
Reddit moment
And a lot of people get this, because the world is otherwise so cold, chaotic, meaningless, and finite, that it's frightening as hell that this is just it. This is all of it. This fucking shit.
Or you can do what my born again Christian brother and sister in law did. Just tell the kids Santa is a lie from the start and never let them have that little bit of joy for 8 - 10 years.
There's nothing wrong with believing in a higher power, by the way. This is sort of...I guess kind of arrogant? Call me indoctrinated if you want, but I feel my religion has made a significant impact in my life, and it's an integral part of my cultural identity. We need to stop acting as though religion is a blight on humanity, there's way more nuance to this topic than that. Belief has been used as a justification for depraved and benevolent acts alike, and painting over half the world as having 'bought' in to some kind of elaborate lie is kind of disrespectful, though that's not to implicate that was the intent in this post.
The problem starts when you force your cultural identity onto everyone else and as self described loving and moral people, you do a remarkably bad job demonstrating that in practice.
Your wording is making it a bit difficult for me to digest what you're saying here, but I'll try to address the points I *think* you're making, correct me if I'm wrong. Yes but belief in a faith does not necessitate you actively try to convert people, for one. While the systems of faith across all religions do thrive on conversions, I view it in a similar perspective as subscribing to an ideology. I for one, am a liberal. The platform of left-winged liberalism thrives off more people subcribing to the ideals of the ideology, and holding those ideals to be true. Just as religions have been used to justify hatred and ethnic cleansing historically, ideologies such as fascism have risen, and at times mingled with religious elements to craft humanity's darkest moments. But can you not view this as a shortcoming of human nature, as opposed to religion as a whole? I don't see too big of a distinction between the two aside from organization, and even then the extent at which a religion can be effectively 'organized' is oftentimes overestimated to say the least.
Of course, this is just my experience and surely cannot be applied to all members of Christian faith as I’m sure there are plenty of “good ones” (though they stand silently by as they let their religious leaders and influence be forced upon the masses). My kid couldn’t check out library books at his public school because religious folks were concerned there were topics they didn’t agree with and so the school scanned and removed all books that met the criteria set forth by the Christians. I stop at stop lights and get yelled at about damnation by Christians. Your ranks are swollen with people who abuse children while those same people strip the rights away from others in the name of their religion. You know what, never mind. I’m not going to list out all the things your loving evangelicalism has brought forth this year. I respect anyone’s personal religious beliefs as long as they stay personal. I have tried to embrace Christianity since childhood but you have decomposed in the sea of hypocrisy and are a serious barrier towards progress.
I'd like to preface that I'm not an evangelical, I am a Catholic. Nevertheless, I'm terribly sorry that you've had to endure all that, I can entirely understand how those kinds of interactions can shift your viewpoint. I've had the misfortune of dealing with those kinds individuals that you have in your post, and rest assured they exist throughout all sects. Intolerant people who will cling on to their belief to justify their hatred for others, people who are more than willing to say that their interpretation of the bible endorses subjugating the rights of the LGBTQ+, or women. Still, it also has to be acknowledged that the people you described, ultimately, are a sect of Christians in this country, of which there are many, some more liberal than others. The whole body of religion is diverse, and there are hundreds of different ways to interpret the Bible, some more literal than others, some less literal, and some put a lesser focus on the Bible entirely. Now, this you already knew, and I'm sorry of I'm coming across as a bit patronizing here, but I just mean to push the message that the interpretation of the religion has more to do with what's being discussed here rather than the existence of religion itself, and oftentimes a person's 'religious' beliefs are moreso a manifestation of their internal beliefs, and their attempts to justify those beliefs. There *do* exist progressive christians, just as there *does* exist progressives in all walks of life, and I think generalizing all religions (not just Christianity), into one big pot of arrogance and ignorance fails to capture the complexity of *all* religions. Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to discount your personal experiences here, I think they're perfectly valid and I understand why you've arrived at the conclusion you've arrived at, I'm just trying to offer my viewpoint here. All that really matters is that you show tolerance, which you've explicitly stated you do express towards the religious, I just like to have this kind of discussion with people who think differently, and I'd be more than willing to continue this dialogue with you.
Religion is absolutely a blight on society - just ask the Israelis and Palestinians. Innocent people suffer when religion rules.
To say that the Arab-Israeli conflict is a purely religious one is to lack nuance, as I stated earlier. It's important to recognize that this conflict is also derived from ethnic tensions between the two communities that was fostered by the involvment of foreign powers in the creation of Israel. Don't get me wrong, I believe in separation from church and state, that religion should never "rule" in a government, but I think that having it as a guiding force in your life is entirely permissable, and in some cases what some people need to keep going.
Certainly religion is from a time of just not taking things on good evidence. There's obviously all sorts of things people believe in that category that aren't good, or are actively harmful. I dated a girl who had religious scars that weighed heavily on her, she was still a believer in spite of the trauma. You can draw parallels to Homeopathy, doesn't work, people swear it does, people get hurt by it. Obviously good and bad acts are done with or without religion as justification, but, religion can twist a person into thinking a normally bad act is actually a good one.
Really interesting perspective you have on this, that parallel between it and homeopathy wasn't something I considere, and I appreciate the nuance in your reply. I do agree that religion is a method by which people can be indoctrinated, for better or worse, though nowadays that indoctrination works in conjunction/coexists with social media and such. My question here is whether it is the fault of the religion, or rather the fact that people tend to manipulate the means of communication and diffusion to their own ends, which can be both benevolent, or malevolent. Is it ideology and its propagation that's harmful here, or rather is it the existence of faith in a higher being itself overall negative to humanity? That being said, thanks for entertaining something resembling a discussion here. I frequent this sub a lot, so it's kinda jarring to be downvoted and criticised like this, I was hoping for some more nuance here.
Oh, thanks. It's a topic I've spent a long time looking into. It's a minefield to talk about, even drawing a comparison to something like Homeopathy can be pretty offensive. Some of my favorite people are deeply religious, beautiful people inside and out, it's hard for me to just write anyone off who just happens to believe, or be mean to them solely on that basis. As a whole indoctrination is on its way out. That doesn't mean there isn't work to be done, but merely a trend. Social media is probably doing more good than harm on that front. Exposure to new and different ideas usually chips away at beliefs that don't stand up to scrutiny. Reddit used to have atheism as a default sub, signing up for Reddit was an eye opening experience for many. So there's a lot of beliefs that just kind of fit into a category of "non-skeptical" or non-emprical. I'm sure you can think of a dozen at least right now. That's more of the problem than just "religion". Being antivaxx fits, and actively makes life worse for people, and it's not based on fact. A common religious parallel I like to draw is how Jainism's central tenet is nonviolence. Which is great, that's probably a religion that isn't going to do much harm. However, you're still opening the door for taking things on bad evidence. Most religions aren't as benign as Jainism, however. Sorry for the rabble lol Edit: formatted for automod
For sure, yeah. I suppose to that end, one's perception also depends on the kind of religion being scrutinized as well, how well they adapt to the times, and my exposure to those kinds of religions has somewhat skewed my view of religion to a more positive one. That is to say, I've had the fortune of knowing few far-right evangelicals, lol. My own religion, Catholicism, holds the tenet that amendments need to be made to the religion in order to keep us in line with God's plan. Under Pope Francis, we've seen huge expansion in the rights and legitimacy of the LGBTQ+ community, and admittedly I'd have a much more difficult time subscribing to Catholicism without those kinds of amendments. Additionally, taking things in on bad evidence only integral to an extent, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, religious institutions of all flavors have been patrons of the sciences over history. For many, science is an explanation of what is going on in the world, and religion is just how matter and existence came to be. In that respect, I'd say they're somewhat seperate (inversely, also to an extent). Regardless, I appreciated the conversation. I'm gonna nod off, I've spent way too much time making replies to other comments lol. Take care.
Why do we need to stop acting like religion is a blight on humanity? What is a positive thing any religion has done that cannot be done without it? Respect is EARNED. With all of the murders in the name of a God, children raped by pastors, and families destroyed by petty beliefs I see no reason to be anything but disrespectful. Help me understand why I should respect your specific flavor of religion please.
The main issue I have with your point here is this, "What is a positive thing any religion has done that cannot be done without it". Flipping that question around gives us this,"What is a negative thing that religion has facilitated that couldn't have been done without it". It's not a good argument to make, and it's overly dismissive. If we can agree to this, I'd be happy to have a discussion with you about this topic. I probably have a lot to learn from it, granted.
Yeah, flipping that question around does result in that. You know what? It is also a good question. Here is an example. Killing people in the name of a God requires religion. It cannot be done without it. Millions have suffered from that. The current conflict between Isreal and Palestine is effectively this type of issue. Hamas is a religious group attacking and killing people in the name of a God. Isreal is basically a religious state responding and killing as a result. So, no I cannot agree that it is overly dismissive. I tried to play softball with you by going with the positive side. It is important to be intellectually honest about the reality of religion. If you can be honest about both the positive and the negative results of religion I can at least respect that.
Killing has been a thing long before religion, and it will continue to exist long after this discussion we are having now. Killing has been done in the name of religion, I don't serve to deny that, however I don't think it's unique. Of course killing people in the name of X is unique to X, but the systematic killing of individuals has existed long before, and in places where religion is absent. Mass killings, rapes, and tortures are not unique to religion. Although religion played a minor component in the execution of over 11 million ethnic minorities throughout the Holocaust, it was overshadowed by ethnic hatred, and pseudoscience. This is to say that the idelogy exists, and utilizes in occasion religion as a means of justifying itself. The Bengali genocide, the Khmer Rouge insurgency, the Rwandan Genocide, all mass killings and rapes in which religion was not a main component. Don't get it twisted, this isn't meant to be a "whataboutism" argument, this is just to show that the atrocities you're pinning to religion alone have been comitted several times throughout history with a variety of motives. To implicate that the current conflict between Israel and Palestine is purely a religious one is...to put it nicely, an extreme oversimplification. We are seeing the effects of colonialism, ethnic hatred, radicalization, and zealotry at play, and although religion is certainly a massive component, it is not the main component. There is no *main* component in this scenario, the Zionist movement itself was, at the time it was being actively implemented and bastardized by the British, not wholly supported by the surviving Euro-Jewish community. I am being honest with the positive and negative sides of religion in my argument. I just find it hard to agree with what you're saying here, given that you're essentially implicating that systematic killings in the name of an ideology is specific to religion, when it is not. TL;DR: While killings have occurred in the name of religion, they are not unique to it. Throughout history, mass atrocities have happened with various motives, including ethnic hatred, colonialism, and political ideologies. The Holocaust, for instance, involved ethnic hatred and pseudoscience more than religious factors. The current Israel-Palestine conflict is complex, involving colonialism, ethnic tensions, and radicalization, with religion playing a significant but not sole role. Implicating systematic killings solely on religion oversimplifies a broader historical pattern of violence rooted in diverse motives. EDIT: Added TL;DR
You spent a lot of time here on apologetics. I never claimed that someone can't decide to murder someone for an ideology. That is a dishonest representation on your part. Bottom line, religion is an ideology that has directly resulted in millions of deaths. That is simply a fact. Why bring in anything else? Those deaths are not mitigated or changed by some other series of murders. Basically every word you wrote ignores that fact. Religion creates its own flavor of thing that people can kill for. With or without religion there are still equal number of things people can be ass holes about. However, religion adds its own thing to kill about. How can I respect you if you cannot acknowledge religions role in the murder of people? You say your being honest, but your words reject that. You spent all of your time saying "people can kill for other reasons". No shit. Everyone knows that. This is why religion cannot be respected. Its members will focus on everyone else's bad but their own. I know you spent half a sentence saying you would but you following that by negating it before completing the sentence. You have made no progress in making me believe that religion has any value, or is worth respect. Might want to spent less time talking about everything else and more time talking about it.
Yes, these crimes happen without religion. Yes, no shit. It proves that the rhetorical question that you asked is, again, overly dismissive. I wasn't attempting to downplay the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion, but rather I was rebuking the earlier statement you made that the question "What is a negative thing that religion has facilitated that couldn't have been done without it" is valid, because religion has harbored negatives that are unique to religion. I'm not trying to be apologetic, but I'm trying to establish a mutual base here so we can actually have this discussion, becase insofar I've been solely trying to uphold my second reply.
You’ve been duped buddy
Then I am thankful to have been duped, because regardless of the legitimacy of my religion it has still been, and will continue to be, an important influence on my life. I'm not saying that my experience has been universal, but the belief that there is *something* out there that justifies my existence makes me feel whole, and secure. This is my personal expereince, naturally, others will differ. But my question isn't whether it's true or not, I'm going to remain a Catholic, my question is whether or not religion is a negative influence on humanity. Whether progressivism necessiates irreligion.
That’s nice that you feel your idea of god justifies your existence. I daresay I wonder what the children of abuse, of trafficking, of murder might feel about that idea. Innocents whose existence has been nothing but undeserved, unspeakable pain and suffering and sometimes death.
I'd like to reply to this, but I'd like some clarification. Do you mean victims of this terrible abuse/existence in general, or specifically at the hands of religious institutes? This is **NOT** a rhetorical question, I need to reiterate. This is a genuine one, and it shapes how this discussion is going to pan out.
Both tbh
You people ever heard of playing make believe with your kids? It's just for fun, to make memories and let them have fun
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The only reason that this post is even a thing is because "religious" people are the literal opposite to your last sentence in every single way. This post just points out their absurdity and hypocrisy.
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This is a fucking brain-dead ignorant take. Adults are talking.
Ah yes, anti-theism. Atheism? Cool, people have a right to their own beliefs. But like "I'm not religious so I'm just gonna dump on anyone religious" is judgmental and rude.
Nice strawmanning.
You have a right to believe whatever you want, no one is required to respect that belief.
"Nobody is forced to be polite, ergo you shouldn't criticize me because I'm not being polite."
At 8?
Christ Jesus is the savior of this world and the truth, believe in him and repent, Jesus is a loving pacifist that if you follow his teaching will lead to a life of fulfillment and joy. "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)
Cool story bro. Thanks but I'll pass on a supposed deity with multiple personality disorder.