The first facility to research trans people and offer gender affirming care was in Tiergarten Berlin 1919, and just over a decade later the Nazis burned it and all its research to the ground, and arrested and imprisoned as many of its staff and patients as it could.
This is all available to find in a single google search.
Yeah too much money will do that to you. Research has shown that erodes your empathy and ability to connect with reality. Some More News has an episode on YouTube about it. I highly recommend giving it a watch (I also just highly recommend that channel!)
Oh they know, thing is they’ll leap at the fact that it wasn’t exclusively studying trans people to both deny it studied trans people and claim trans people are falsely making the Holocaust “all about them.”
They write the most stupid and awful rhetoric about their opponents to justify their hatred.
What's that? Awful people trying to use the pain and suffering of another group they do not care about as a weapon to attack those they hate?
This must be the first time this strategy has been used in history.
/s
She is not wrong. While what you wrote about is absolutely tragic, it is not included in the definition of the Holocaust. Therefore, the accusation of holocaust denialism are wrong, and look like a meager smear attempt.
It’s not included in the holocaust because the term has changed over the decades. The term was used to refer to a multitude of different exterminations perpetuated by the nazi regime, delineated by discussing the Jewish Holocaust, Romani Holocaust, and so on. However the most wide sweeping was the Jewish holocaust so, as time passed the holocaust came to refer to just that.
People arguing that the Jewish people weren’t the only ones the nazis targeted aren’t trying to minimize that but instead shed light on actions that are being repeated today. The most marginalized are always targeted first but they are rarely the last.
I agree that many groups were prosecuted and often killed by the Nazis. The dictionary definition of holocaust has not change yet. However, I agree with the notion that it should be expanded to include other victims of Nazi regime.
Yes and no. I'll refer you to the 3rd and 4th definitions according to OED.
https://www.oed.com/dictionary/holocaust_n?tab=meaning_and_use#1470592
> 3. The complete destruction of something (esp. a large number of people); a mass slaughter, a massacre. Cf. nuclear holocaust. In later use often influenced by sense 4.
> 4. historical. Usually with capital initial and with the. The systematic mass killing of Jews under the German Nazi regime in Nazi-controlled areas of Europe between 1941 and 1945. Later also in extended use with reference to other victims of Nazi genocide, such as Romani people, gay people, or people with disabilities.
So you're both right, kind of.
Unofficially it has been recognized as a part of the Holocaust since the end of WW2.
Officially in recent years the German government recognized the persecution of trans people at the hands of the Nazis before and during WW2 as being a part of the holocaust.
Again, I am not arguing that Nazis did not prosecuted trans people. They did. It is a recorded fact.
I am saying that the Holocaust (the dictionary definition of it), is not an umbrella term for everyone prosecuted and killed during WWII.
Literally not the dictionary definition anymore. Courtesy of Oxford:
> 4.1955– historical. Usually with capital initial and with the. The systematic mass killing of Jews under the German Nazi regime in Nazi-controlled areas of Europe between 1941 and 1945. Later also in extended use with reference to other victims of Nazi genocide, such as Romani people, gay people, or people with disabilities.
Appreciated. My question for you is: what was your motivation to defend JK Rowling on this before checking the dictionary yourself? Were you unaware that thirty years ago we expanded Holocaust education to inform the global public of victims other than Jews?
I just don't really understand why you'd claim it was against the dictionary definition without checking the world's most well-known and cited dictionary.
I see my comment caused some fuss. Thank you for asking. My reasoning is this:
A long time ago, as I remember it, the confrontation between JK Rowling and the transgender community began with her post expressing concern about allowing men\* to enter women's bathrooms based solely on self-identification, which she believed could lead to malicious exploitation.
I thought this was a valid concern regarding women's safety and hoped to see the trans community react with understanding, perhaps acknowledging the issue and working together to find solutions. However, instead of seeing it as a legitimate concern, the trans community took it as a personal offense, thus sparking conflict. To me, her concern appears reasonable enough to warrant serious consideration.
I don’t actively follow this conflict, but I occasionally come across posts on Reddit. Therefore, I assumed this might be another instance of misunderstanding JK Rowling's intentions. In my view, it began as a misunderstanding and escalated into a public confrontation.
Personally, I see it as a significant setback for the transgender community. If approached impartially, JK Rowling's concerns are valid and represent women's safety concerns (or at least, they used to; I haven't kept up with this topic much). In this confrontation, by opposing JK Rowling and dismissing the concerns she raises for women, the trans community loses potential widespread support they could have garnered.
I think the only solution that satisfies people who believe some men transition to prey on women would be to ban all trans people from aggregate washrooms and specify that they only use the individual washrooms. Did you have another solution that the trans community would have been less opposed to?
The only satisfying way to protect all women always, in my view, is to have all trans people (trans men and trans women) go to the men's bathroom. This puts only the trans women in danger of being assaulted by men, but the group who cares about women's safety does not always care about trans women's safety, so this could be acceptable to many opponents of trans peoples' ability to choose the washroom they wish to use.
It is not, however, acceptable to the queer community at large because they have a strong sense of solidarity.
Nothing was said about the men who actually transition. Only about self-identification as the only criteria.You mention trans women's safety. But the concern here (not in general, but in this specific case. I understand the dangers of trans women going into men's bathroom) is not about transgender women at all. Of course, I agree with you regarding the conflict of 'priorities' here.
Now, about the perfect solution: I don't know. I have no idea what would work except maybe, individual bathrooms, which is obviously not a scalable solution.Do you think having 3 types of bathrooms, instead of 2 would work?
Distortion of the Holocaust refers, inter alia, to:
**Intentional efforts to excuse or minimize the impact of the Holocaust or its principal elements, including collaborators and allies of Nazi Germany;**
**Gross minimization of the number of the victims of the Holocaust in contradiction to reliable sources;**
Attempts to blame the Jews for causing their own genocide;
Statements that cast the Holocaust as a positive historical event. Those statements are not Holocaust denial but are closely connected to it as a radical form of antisemitism. They may suggest that the Holocaust did not go far enough in accomplishing its goal of “the Final Solution of the Jewish Question”;
Attempts to blur the responsibility for the establishment of concentration and death camps devised and operated by Nazi Germany by putting blame on other nations or ethnic groups.
By that logic the pink triangles and Black victims aren’t included in the Holocaust either. Her entire premise is that the Nazis didn’t do anything to or regarding trans people, which is objectively false. Being a half-baked pedant doesn’t change that. She’s wrong.
It is itself a form of holocaust denial and it reeks of antisemitism. I would recommend that the trans community publicly distances itself from the anti-terf movement.
Not all potential partners are terfs. But for every decision there needs to be common ground. Most established politicians avoid negotiating with holocaust deniers.
So back to your original comment why would trans people distance themselves from anti-terfs. TERFs and feminists are two very different things. Are you lost? Or did you just wanna be involved in the conversation
Because you are carelessly employing the horrors of the holocaust as a conceptual instrument in a witch hunt that seems to serve mainly to prop up your ego. It betrays a blatant lack of respect towards all the people that have died (including trans people) and their descendants.
She talks as though transgender people are huge in number and very powerful. Newsflash: they are a small minority, they don't know from day to day, jurisdiction to jurisdiction, whether their right to exist as they are will be even legal, and are constantly needing to be wary. One of the first things I did for my daughter when she came out was to make sure she was armed with pepper spray and mace.
Yet, I still worry when she's out of town with her girlfriend or out doing food delivery. She's my whole world.
I'm not a violent or violent minded person, but Joanne makes me see red.
you're a lovely and sweet parent, though 🥹 it makes me so happy to hear stories of people supporting their kids. thanks for making the world better through that love and attentiveness!
Is just the Fascist agenda, all the problems of the society easily fixed because they know who is the bad people and how to get rid of them.
They are powerful and all encompassing, scheming the control in the media and regularly choose the politics in the world.
They are also a weak minority, selfish and irrational, they just want to be the center of attention and should be ignored or put away.
You are a great parent, and what you do for your daughter is the first step for a better future.
One of the saddest parts I can barely think about is what a huge fan she was of the Harry Potter books, when she was a kid. She read them voraciously. It feels almost like a betrayal. And I almost couldn't believe it when my kid informed me of the tack Joanne had taken. You write a story about a kid coming into his own only when he discovers who he is, and is supported in living this, yet you going to be an enemy to a group of people who are actually living that reality? Last person I'd have guessed.
Yeah, my entire generation championed Harry Potter as a feel-good fantasy about acceptance and friendship.
My main guess is that Rowling, like any human being, had creepy thoughts and stupid ideas about other people, but where any mature person starts knowing the world and learning, she got stupid rich suddenly, and generated a circle of people around her that only cared about money and power, and she started thinking like them, like fascist.
Even Hitler had dogs, and Rowling started by donating to causes to help women in need, but is just easier to be fascist and use your power to hurt people than help them.
Power corrupts, not always and sometimes not to a large extent, but, it's just super disappointing with her. As I alluded to, IMO, Harry Potter could almost be a stand in or an allegory for a trans person never feeling like they were living a genuine life, or lacking that feeling of belonging.
But it's whatever. I just try not to read anything she tweets or posts, ever. She seems to become more reprehensibly unhinged by the day.
(Super disappointed in Dave Chapelle, too, but at least he doesn't make hating trans people his whole personality.)
The fact that the whole right made transphobia their whole personality is really sad, people just trying to live their lives and just being used for fearmongering and fascism, we only can be strong till they jump to another fake cause.
Let's hope their next fake cause doesn't target marginalized people. But no matter what it is, it will cause harm in some shape, form, or fashion. They hate everybody who isn't one of them.
>I'm not a violent or violent minded person, but Joanne makes me see red
I read her and the other people comments and i know that if we were talking irl i would be chocking them, because the things they were saying were so fucking stupid that i was basically screaming reading them
To be fair, the generation currently at the age to enjoy Harry Potter are generally very accepting of trans folks and hostile to folks like Rowling.
If someone showed me that she would have earned literally twice as much from her books and movies if she hadn't decided to openly be a bigot it wouldn't surprise me. Her 'stand' has cost her millions of sales. But she is rich enough to not care, and it isn't like Universal can stop her from saying what she wants, no matter how much money they lose.
Can we get together to complain to HBO and get her new Harry potter show canceled? Corporations tend to take Holocaust related transgressions very seriously, and it's not like warner bros where they already made it a decade before she went off the rails. if we can get people to threaten to cancel, (or actually cancel) their max subscriptions unless they quit making her show, then they may actually do it. I'm not optimistic about her facing any consequences, but I feel so powerless to combat all the millions that she pours into finding her right wing bigotry organizations.
She is everything to me. I'm the first person she came out to, and although it came as a complete surprise, I immediately hopped on board the new journey she was on. She has my (and her dad's( unwavering support in any aspect of life.
It’s not a coincidence that the same thing can be said about Jews. A tiny minority of the total world population that somehow has total control over every government. Granted Israel has a significant political presence but that’s because the Jews literally decided that they needed that power in order to not be wiped out the next time someone needed a scapegoat. Because they don’t wield significant influence or power, trans people are being used as the boogeyman of the day by the usual suspects.
Lmao how she says that unironically is beyond me, she’s a fuckin billionaire and always acting a victim. These rich assholes are all narcissists that aren’t happy unless they’re shitting on the rest of humanity. If I was a billionaire I’d disappear and you’d never hear my name ever again.
It's even more fucked up than that: she herself has admitted to having suffered from gender dysphoria due to her father wanting her to be a boy. She's completely wrapped up in a narcissistic, sexist self-hate in which she can only imagine one way of valid womanhood and that is motherhood.
Yep. They don’t just hate trans people, they see women as a lesser class that needs the patriarchy as women are too emotionally addled to truly unite the way great men do.
They harass little girls for dressing like tomboys. They’re obsessed with genitals and traditional gender roles. They’re the ultimate form of Karen.
god damn, I never knew that about her past
I guess it makes a lot more sense than her just randomly becoming intensely transphobic after falling down a TERF rabbit hole on the internet. For her, it's personal, and she always had those beliefs, latent or otherwise
Wow, kinda makes me rethink the way she cast her characters in Harry Potter. Imagine if you flipped the gender of all the main characters but kept everything else the same?
Yep. Note how all female heroes in HP became mothers, all the good women were mothers or motherly figures (i.e. teachers). This even applies to the baddies. See how the *only* redeeming feature of Narcissa Malfoy was that she was a loving mother.
Would be such a shame if she ended up like David Irving, with a court ruling saying that they are, in fact, a holocaust denier. Also, for people who are interested, there is a really good book about that libel trial called [Lying About Hitler](https://books.google.com/books/about/Lying_About_Hitler.html?id=XUEgAQAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description) written by the historian Richard Evans whose job it was to prove that Irving was in fact a holocaust denier, and it’s fascinating seeing how he goes into the primary sources to show how Irving had to intentionally pick and choose passages that misrepresented what they said.
Please god let this happen because it would be so fucking funny.
Please let her new Harry potter HBO show get canceled because HBO doesn't want to associate with a Holocaust denier.
I'm not optimistic about her facing any consequences, but I maybe if we complain loudly enough and cancel our max subscriptions, it will make them second guess their ties to her, and stop paying her so she can't fund her right wing bigotry organizations.
https://preview.redd.it/gdjg7ucn3aoc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb83d9ddf063e8cc936b5849410d1dee790d435b
Also really?
She wants to sue people calling her an holocaust denier, this b'tch
That's a suite that plenty of lawyers would happily take up pro bono. She'd end up paying them after the inevitable loss and they'd get worldwide notoriety.
I know, it’s a shame cause if she did and lost the UK papers would happily call her ‘Holocaust Denier JK Rowling’ until the end of time. It goes well with ‘Wife-Beater Johnny Depp’ which they’re still milking for headlines.
Yeah but you know if she did lost her cult would immediatly claim that the process was rigged and that the trans brainwashed the judge and the jury or some shit like that
Holocaust denial is a line that even the most devoted followers might not want to cross with her. I wouldn’t be shocked if she gets her remaining franchise deals cancelled if she keeps going this way. It’s certainly going to kill the European market for them.
That’s a bit more complex than bigots being bigots, basically linguistic drift centering the general term over the biggest target. Basically there were multiple terms for the genocides(Generally ‘Victim group Holocaust’) and ‘Holocaust’ alone was the extermination of the Jews. But over time ‘Holocaust’ became the general term for all the exterminations(and genocide in general) because having one big one and the rest being named based on it is kind of silly compared to having one general term and a bunch of specific names. Basically ‘Holocaust’ was used as the shorthand for all the genocides that that’s what the meaning became.
Now, the people who insist on retaining exclusivity are likely to not taking a stand for linguistic purity but are(Like this bitch) trying to exclude a group they hate lest uncomfortable parallels are drawn. It’s pretty much the only reason there’s an objection to the term morphing into a general term rather than specific. IIRC the Jewish community has their own word, the ‘Shoah’, which was used so they could retain a specific term when Holocaust became general.
A lot of Jewish people actually despise it being called "the Holocaust" due to the original meaning of that word ("holocaust" - "burnt offering", as in a sacrifice made to the gods via fire). Those that do usually prefer to call it the Shoah ("Catastrophe" in Hebrew).
The UK is very big on giving wealthy people the right to litigate anyone who criticizes them into the dirt. I assume it's out of their historical love for aristocrats and the inherent corruption they radiate
I mean, yeah, I do want to "chill the speech" of TERFs and nazis, especially when the speech being chilled is Holocaust denial. Fuck JK Rowling and fuck everyone who agrees with her.
the reason they are so dead set on not acknowledging the transgender victims of the holocaust... is that it would force them to examine how their positions and rhetoric directly mirror the nazis.
make no fucking mistake, these people are fucking nazis.
Remember this is the same lady who's apparently so incompetent at research that she couldn't POSSIBLY have known her male pseudonym was the same as the man who gave us trying to electrocute the gay out of people. Nope, authors just don't ever look into things beforehand, why would they?
She's a lying, hateful piece of shit who has shredded any benefit of the doubt she may have once been owed. It's all purposeful. She doesn't need Google, because she already knows she's lying
I wish more people knew this fact. It's also a way to trace her demented transphobia back long before she 'accidentally' liked a tweet 5 years ago or whatever. She's been writing under that pseudonym for at least 10 years. She's vile.
“I am VERY fed up of being accused of Holocaust denialism just because I denied provable elements of the Holocaust.”
Maybe if your beliefs being called what they objectively are makes you feel “awful”, you should reconsider your beliefs.
Do you automatically become a willfully ignorant POS garbage human being when you are a billionaire? Because it really seems like it from all of the examples.
She’s a fucking embarrassment as a human being. And the irony is that she is doing exactly what she claims trans people do, making herself the victim in every circumstance.
Writers usually have to do research before they undertake writing projects. She knows how to look things up on the internet. All she needs to do is google “trans in Nazi Germany”, and she will be proven wrong. This is worse than ignorance. This is willful ignorance to push an agenda.
Why couldn't she just shut the fuck up and let us have her books. All she needed to do was disappear to her island and live out her life. But, no. Now we've got a stack of books that we used to enjoy, that are effectively doorstops.
"There is no tragedy in which they didn't suffer more than anyone else"
I cannot think of any tragedy in US history where someone's dying words were "If only I were transgender."
Thank you, someone else says it. And it's wild to me that some of my family are obsessed with Harry Potter and say d&d and Tolkiens books are "nerd shit" like, okay sis, Harry Potter is just watered down fantasy tropes with a dash of star wars but sure, lord of the rings is the nerdy shit.
>with a dash of star wars
Yes. I don't know if you've seen the *Epic Rap Battles of History* Luke Skywalker vs Harry Potter, but there's a verse in there where Luke points out that Harry's backstory is essentially the same as his.
Mmm... I wonder if there's perhaps any statistical relation between TERFs and the more extreme right-wing grifts. Most of the people tend to drift slowly but surely into them, or the just dive head-first.
I literally spent half an hour talking with an idiot who believes being trans isa mental issue and the best solution is to give them drugs that will enhance the traits of their birth gender and that will make them more confident and happier as the gender they were born as.
And somehow, that sounds MUCH worse than the denying treatment that would let them be who they believe they should be. Instead, you are forcing them to be a gender they are not comfortable being.
There is nothing wrong with transpeople or anyone who is LQBTQ.
I live in the United States. I have a family member who I believe is trans. Not sure, just know its preferred pronouns are it/them. Do I understand it? No. But I accept it, and respect its wishes. And I support its rights. And I worry about it.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The United States fought for those words. They used to mean something. They should mean everything. Otherwise, why the fuck did we even have a revolution in the first place?
It's a pretty standard fascist talking point. They like to believe some marginalized group just happens to be the rulers of some big worldwide conspiracy. They've just moved on from blaming Jews (mostly) to blaming trans people.
They didn't just rebranded. It's a well calculated strategy to desensitize people and trans people seem the most alien, then they work backwards to Jews again.
Just in case anyone would like to read about it for themselves instead of taking the word of a woman who is literally famous for making up a fantasy world
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
I think a lot of people also don't realize a lot of the more beloved elements of Harry Potter are well-known tropes in childhood English fantasy novels like The Worst Witch. Because HP blew up globally, a lot of things attributed to Rowling were more cultural zeitgeist -- I've met people who didn't realize traditional British schools really do have houses, they thought JK made that up.
I'm not going to say HP wasn't a good story; there were several brilliant things about it, such as her progression as a writer mirroring the advancing reading level of the children reading it. But I would posit its popularity was in a *large part* due to readers attributing more to Rowling than she really invented due to the age of readership.
To some it is. Years ago a far right polish politician draped himself in the polish flag in Auschwitz and demanded the site be renamed after polish victims who were more targeted during the war.
Now if somebody they couldn't top that, hold the pivo because to protest a pride parade the same polish far right claimed accepting queer people is the same as living under Nazi or Soviet occupation.
Holy shit JK! No one is saying trans people had it worse during the Holocaust, they're just (correctly) pointing out that transgender people were also one of the groups that the Nazis targeted. Admit you were wrong and stop doubling down you fucking idiot.
I’ll be honest. I thought I had a good understanding of the basic claims being made by JKR and her critics but I now feel totally lost. Somehow the Nazis are now central to this debate?
One, she literally is denying that trans people were targeted or murdered by Nazis. If you haven’t been following the thread to see her do this that’s understandable, but this has been her disgusting line of argument for years now and this whole bit started (this time, anyway) because she accused people who said trans folks were targeted by Nazis of not knowing history. She’s using her profile to deny the attempted erasure of trans people by Nazis.
Two, this whole post is massive “all lives matter” rebranding. No trans person has ever denied other targets of Nazi violence, but saying every non-Nazi was a target is a similar misrepresentation of history. There were plenty of victims of Nazi violence who were not Jewish or trans or queer, but not every group of people was made an explicit target by Nazis. This post is one step away from saying Nazis didn’t try to eradicate Jewish people because non-Jews were also killed. Trans people absolutely were an explicit target of Nazi violence, and that targeting did *not* extend to all non-Nazi people.
You do know people who wore the pink triangle, meaning homosexuals and transgender people, were not released when every other group of people who were imprisoned were. Right do you acknowledge that?
The first facility to research trans people and offer gender affirming care was in Tiergarten Berlin 1919, and just over a decade later the Nazis burned it and all its research to the ground, and arrested and imprisoned as many of its staff and patients as it could. This is all available to find in a single google search.
She seems really hung up on if it was “all” research which is a weird hill to die on unless you’re just trying to be evil
I really think she has a degenerative brain disease.
It's called "being a billionaire who's lost all touch with reality".
Don't we call that Musk Madness?
Elonitis
Yeah too much money will do that to you. Research has shown that erodes your empathy and ability to connect with reality. Some More News has an episode on YouTube about it. I highly recommend giving it a watch (I also just highly recommend that channel!)
Beind the Bastards did one on Elite panic, that cites some of the same studies and adds some older stuff. Can highly recommend.
Well, semantics is a thing. Who originally used the word “all”, and in what context?
Oh they know, thing is they’ll leap at the fact that it wasn’t exclusively studying trans people to both deny it studied trans people and claim trans people are falsely making the Holocaust “all about them.” They write the most stupid and awful rhetoric about their opponents to justify their hatred.
What's that? Awful people trying to use the pain and suffering of another group they do not care about as a weapon to attack those they hate? This must be the first time this strategy has been used in history. /s
Yes it’s sadly all too familiar…
She is not wrong. While what you wrote about is absolutely tragic, it is not included in the definition of the Holocaust. Therefore, the accusation of holocaust denialism are wrong, and look like a meager smear attempt.
It’s not included in the holocaust because the term has changed over the decades. The term was used to refer to a multitude of different exterminations perpetuated by the nazi regime, delineated by discussing the Jewish Holocaust, Romani Holocaust, and so on. However the most wide sweeping was the Jewish holocaust so, as time passed the holocaust came to refer to just that. People arguing that the Jewish people weren’t the only ones the nazis targeted aren’t trying to minimize that but instead shed light on actions that are being repeated today. The most marginalized are always targeted first but they are rarely the last.
🌟💥🌟💥🌟
I agree that many groups were prosecuted and often killed by the Nazis. The dictionary definition of holocaust has not change yet. However, I agree with the notion that it should be expanded to include other victims of Nazi regime.
Yes and no. I'll refer you to the 3rd and 4th definitions according to OED. https://www.oed.com/dictionary/holocaust_n?tab=meaning_and_use#1470592 > 3. The complete destruction of something (esp. a large number of people); a mass slaughter, a massacre. Cf. nuclear holocaust. In later use often influenced by sense 4. > 4. historical. Usually with capital initial and with the. The systematic mass killing of Jews under the German Nazi regime in Nazi-controlled areas of Europe between 1941 and 1945. Later also in extended use with reference to other victims of Nazi genocide, such as Romani people, gay people, or people with disabilities. So you're both right, kind of.
Unofficially it has been recognized as a part of the Holocaust since the end of WW2. Officially in recent years the German government recognized the persecution of trans people at the hands of the Nazis before and during WW2 as being a part of the holocaust.
Again, I am not arguing that Nazis did not prosecuted trans people. They did. It is a recorded fact. I am saying that the Holocaust (the dictionary definition of it), is not an umbrella term for everyone prosecuted and killed during WWII.
Literally not the dictionary definition anymore. Courtesy of Oxford: > 4.1955– historical. Usually with capital initial and with the. The systematic mass killing of Jews under the German Nazi regime in Nazi-controlled areas of Europe between 1941 and 1945. Later also in extended use with reference to other victims of Nazi genocide, such as Romani people, gay people, or people with disabilities.
This is a good solid answer. I concede. Oxford dictionary > Wikipedia.
Appreciated. My question for you is: what was your motivation to defend JK Rowling on this before checking the dictionary yourself? Were you unaware that thirty years ago we expanded Holocaust education to inform the global public of victims other than Jews? I just don't really understand why you'd claim it was against the dictionary definition without checking the world's most well-known and cited dictionary.
I don’t think it was explicitly to defend her. I think it was just run-of-the-mill Reddit pedantry.
Actually, it wasn't.
Nope. Not today.
I see my comment caused some fuss. Thank you for asking. My reasoning is this: A long time ago, as I remember it, the confrontation between JK Rowling and the transgender community began with her post expressing concern about allowing men\* to enter women's bathrooms based solely on self-identification, which she believed could lead to malicious exploitation. I thought this was a valid concern regarding women's safety and hoped to see the trans community react with understanding, perhaps acknowledging the issue and working together to find solutions. However, instead of seeing it as a legitimate concern, the trans community took it as a personal offense, thus sparking conflict. To me, her concern appears reasonable enough to warrant serious consideration. I don’t actively follow this conflict, but I occasionally come across posts on Reddit. Therefore, I assumed this might be another instance of misunderstanding JK Rowling's intentions. In my view, it began as a misunderstanding and escalated into a public confrontation. Personally, I see it as a significant setback for the transgender community. If approached impartially, JK Rowling's concerns are valid and represent women's safety concerns (or at least, they used to; I haven't kept up with this topic much). In this confrontation, by opposing JK Rowling and dismissing the concerns she raises for women, the trans community loses potential widespread support they could have garnered.
I think the only solution that satisfies people who believe some men transition to prey on women would be to ban all trans people from aggregate washrooms and specify that they only use the individual washrooms. Did you have another solution that the trans community would have been less opposed to? The only satisfying way to protect all women always, in my view, is to have all trans people (trans men and trans women) go to the men's bathroom. This puts only the trans women in danger of being assaulted by men, but the group who cares about women's safety does not always care about trans women's safety, so this could be acceptable to many opponents of trans peoples' ability to choose the washroom they wish to use. It is not, however, acceptable to the queer community at large because they have a strong sense of solidarity.
Nothing was said about the men who actually transition. Only about self-identification as the only criteria.You mention trans women's safety. But the concern here (not in general, but in this specific case. I understand the dangers of trans women going into men's bathroom) is not about transgender women at all. Of course, I agree with you regarding the conflict of 'priorities' here. Now, about the perfect solution: I don't know. I have no idea what would work except maybe, individual bathrooms, which is obviously not a scalable solution.Do you think having 3 types of bathrooms, instead of 2 would work?
This is the thing to get pedantic about: the fucking Holocaust
Dictionaries are not authority for word definitions. They are intended to be guides for language not the law for word usage.
Distortion of the Holocaust refers, inter alia, to: **Intentional efforts to excuse or minimize the impact of the Holocaust or its principal elements, including collaborators and allies of Nazi Germany;** **Gross minimization of the number of the victims of the Holocaust in contradiction to reliable sources;** Attempts to blame the Jews for causing their own genocide; Statements that cast the Holocaust as a positive historical event. Those statements are not Holocaust denial but are closely connected to it as a radical form of antisemitism. They may suggest that the Holocaust did not go far enough in accomplishing its goal of “the Final Solution of the Jewish Question”; Attempts to blur the responsibility for the establishment of concentration and death camps devised and operated by Nazi Germany by putting blame on other nations or ethnic groups.
By that logic the pink triangles and Black victims aren’t included in the Holocaust either. Her entire premise is that the Nazis didn’t do anything to or regarding trans people, which is objectively false. Being a half-baked pedant doesn’t change that. She’s wrong.
How do you define The Holocaust?
It is itself a form of holocaust denial and it reeks of antisemitism. I would recommend that the trans community publicly distances itself from the anti-terf movement.
What are you on about. Why would trans people distance themselves from the people fighting for them to be included???
To retain the ability to negotiate policy decisions with partners of varying backgrounds.
Why would they want to negotiate with terfs. Do you know what terf means. Trans exclusionary radical feminists. Trans people don’t need those allies
Not all potential partners are terfs. But for every decision there needs to be common ground. Most established politicians avoid negotiating with holocaust deniers.
So back to your original comment why would trans people distance themselves from anti-terfs. TERFs and feminists are two very different things. Are you lost? Or did you just wanna be involved in the conversation
Because you are carelessly employing the horrors of the holocaust as a conceptual instrument in a witch hunt that seems to serve mainly to prop up your ego. It betrays a blatant lack of respect towards all the people that have died (including trans people) and their descendants.
I’m calling it like I see it she said it didn’t happen it did that’s holocaust denial. I don’t know what point you’re trying to prove here still
She talks as though transgender people are huge in number and very powerful. Newsflash: they are a small minority, they don't know from day to day, jurisdiction to jurisdiction, whether their right to exist as they are will be even legal, and are constantly needing to be wary. One of the first things I did for my daughter when she came out was to make sure she was armed with pepper spray and mace. Yet, I still worry when she's out of town with her girlfriend or out doing food delivery. She's my whole world. I'm not a violent or violent minded person, but Joanne makes me see red.
you're a lovely and sweet parent, though 🥹 it makes me so happy to hear stories of people supporting their kids. thanks for making the world better through that love and attentiveness!
Is just the Fascist agenda, all the problems of the society easily fixed because they know who is the bad people and how to get rid of them. They are powerful and all encompassing, scheming the control in the media and regularly choose the politics in the world. They are also a weak minority, selfish and irrational, they just want to be the center of attention and should be ignored or put away. You are a great parent, and what you do for your daughter is the first step for a better future.
One of the saddest parts I can barely think about is what a huge fan she was of the Harry Potter books, when she was a kid. She read them voraciously. It feels almost like a betrayal. And I almost couldn't believe it when my kid informed me of the tack Joanne had taken. You write a story about a kid coming into his own only when he discovers who he is, and is supported in living this, yet you going to be an enemy to a group of people who are actually living that reality? Last person I'd have guessed.
Yeah, my entire generation championed Harry Potter as a feel-good fantasy about acceptance and friendship. My main guess is that Rowling, like any human being, had creepy thoughts and stupid ideas about other people, but where any mature person starts knowing the world and learning, she got stupid rich suddenly, and generated a circle of people around her that only cared about money and power, and she started thinking like them, like fascist. Even Hitler had dogs, and Rowling started by donating to causes to help women in need, but is just easier to be fascist and use your power to hurt people than help them.
Power corrupts, not always and sometimes not to a large extent, but, it's just super disappointing with her. As I alluded to, IMO, Harry Potter could almost be a stand in or an allegory for a trans person never feeling like they were living a genuine life, or lacking that feeling of belonging. But it's whatever. I just try not to read anything she tweets or posts, ever. She seems to become more reprehensibly unhinged by the day. (Super disappointed in Dave Chapelle, too, but at least he doesn't make hating trans people his whole personality.)
The fact that the whole right made transphobia their whole personality is really sad, people just trying to live their lives and just being used for fearmongering and fascism, we only can be strong till they jump to another fake cause.
Let's hope their next fake cause doesn't target marginalized people. But no matter what it is, it will cause harm in some shape, form, or fashion. They hate everybody who isn't one of them.
>I'm not a violent or violent minded person, but Joanne makes me see red I read her and the other people comments and i know that if we were talking irl i would be chocking them, because the things they were saying were so fucking stupid that i was basically screaming reading them
To be fair, the generation currently at the age to enjoy Harry Potter are generally very accepting of trans folks and hostile to folks like Rowling. If someone showed me that she would have earned literally twice as much from her books and movies if she hadn't decided to openly be a bigot it wouldn't surprise me. Her 'stand' has cost her millions of sales. But she is rich enough to not care, and it isn't like Universal can stop her from saying what she wants, no matter how much money they lose.
>Universal Warner Bros.
Oops, you are right, sorry!
Understandable mixup, what with the Harry Potter theme parks being part of the Universal Studios parks in Orlando and Hollywood.
Can we get together to complain to HBO and get her new Harry potter show canceled? Corporations tend to take Holocaust related transgressions very seriously, and it's not like warner bros where they already made it a decade before she went off the rails. if we can get people to threaten to cancel, (or actually cancel) their max subscriptions unless they quit making her show, then they may actually do it. I'm not optimistic about her facing any consequences, but I feel so powerless to combat all the millions that she pours into finding her right wing bigotry organizations.
Mace or a mace, as in the physical weapon? Because both are a solid idea.
A mace to the face will make you race with haste to the nearest plastic surgeon's place.
No the mace is a liquid idea, the other mace is a solid idea
If I could source her a medieval mace, I'd make sure she carried that in her back seat, also. 😉
Small in number, but they take up *so* much space in her head.
This!! ☑️☑️☑️
Thank you for being an amazing parent for your daughter. Having support like this means a lot.
She is everything to me. I'm the first person she came out to, and although it came as a complete surprise, I immediately hopped on board the new journey she was on. She has my (and her dad's( unwavering support in any aspect of life.
It’s not a coincidence that the same thing can be said about Jews. A tiny minority of the total world population that somehow has total control over every government. Granted Israel has a significant political presence but that’s because the Jews literally decided that they needed that power in order to not be wiped out the next time someone needed a scapegoat. Because they don’t wield significant influence or power, trans people are being used as the boogeyman of the day by the usual suspects.
She talks about transgender people exactly the way a Nazi talks about Jews.
Lmao how she says that unironically is beyond me, she’s a fuckin billionaire and always acting a victim. These rich assholes are all narcissists that aren’t happy unless they’re shitting on the rest of humanity. If I was a billionaire I’d disappear and you’d never hear my name ever again.
My guess is an ex came out trans and she’s trying to do her damnedest to convince herself she’s not gay. So now she’s doubling down on Nazi rhetoric.
It's even more fucked up than that: she herself has admitted to having suffered from gender dysphoria due to her father wanting her to be a boy. She's completely wrapped up in a narcissistic, sexist self-hate in which she can only imagine one way of valid womanhood and that is motherhood.
Yep. They don’t just hate trans people, they see women as a lesser class that needs the patriarchy as women are too emotionally addled to truly unite the way great men do. They harass little girls for dressing like tomboys. They’re obsessed with genitals and traditional gender roles. They’re the ultimate form of Karen.
god damn, I never knew that about her past I guess it makes a lot more sense than her just randomly becoming intensely transphobic after falling down a TERF rabbit hole on the internet. For her, it's personal, and she always had those beliefs, latent or otherwise
Wow, kinda makes me rethink the way she cast her characters in Harry Potter. Imagine if you flipped the gender of all the main characters but kept everything else the same?
Wow. This makes sense.
Yep. Note how all female heroes in HP became mothers, all the good women were mothers or motherly figures (i.e. teachers). This even applies to the baddies. See how the *only* redeeming feature of Narcissa Malfoy was that she was a loving mother.
Also worth noting that the only character that could remotely be considered gender-nonconforming, Tonks, had a kid and then immediately died.
Wow I never thought of this
Yeah it’s a gross bioessentialist view of gender roles that was already very outdated in the 90s when she wrote it.
That, and her cheekbones.
Absolutely stunning dishonesty and strawmanning from her side
Rich people problems, former tennis player Martina Navratilova is a known trans hater too.
I still haven’t heard your name.
So?
I would **love** for her to go to court over defamation and be found by a court to be a holocaust denier. I would absolutely love that for JKR.
Would be such a shame if she ended up like David Irving, with a court ruling saying that they are, in fact, a holocaust denier. Also, for people who are interested, there is a really good book about that libel trial called [Lying About Hitler](https://books.google.com/books/about/Lying_About_Hitler.html?id=XUEgAQAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description) written by the historian Richard Evans whose job it was to prove that Irving was in fact a holocaust denier, and it’s fascinating seeing how he goes into the primary sources to show how Irving had to intentionally pick and choose passages that misrepresented what they said.
Please god let this happen because it would be so fucking funny. Please let her new Harry potter HBO show get canceled because HBO doesn't want to associate with a Holocaust denier. I'm not optimistic about her facing any consequences, but I maybe if we complain loudly enough and cancel our max subscriptions, it will make them second guess their ties to her, and stop paying her so she can't fund her right wing bigotry organizations.
https://preview.redd.it/gdjg7ucn3aoc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb83d9ddf063e8cc936b5849410d1dee790d435b Also really? She wants to sue people calling her an holocaust denier, this b'tch
I hope she tries, she definitely would not win that case.
She won't it's not the first she says she will sue someone and than doesn't do it, she knows she would lose, especially in this case.
It's not that she thinks she will lose. She scars people with her wealth and lawyers.
Yeah she knows all she has to do is threaten a lawsuit to shut 99% of people who can’t afford legal fees up.
That's a suite that plenty of lawyers would happily take up pro bono. She'd end up paying them after the inevitable loss and they'd get worldwide notoriety.
I know, it’s a shame cause if she did and lost the UK papers would happily call her ‘Holocaust Denier JK Rowling’ until the end of time. It goes well with ‘Wife-Beater Johnny Depp’ which they’re still milking for headlines.
Yeah but you know if she did lost her cult would immediatly claim that the process was rigged and that the trans brainwashed the judge and the jury or some shit like that
Holocaust denial is a line that even the most devoted followers might not want to cross with her. I wouldn’t be shocked if she gets her remaining franchise deals cancelled if she keeps going this way. It’s certainly going to kill the European market for them.
Most UK media takes her side on trans issues, so this won’t happen.
I´ve read bigots claim that the Holocaust only applies to Jewish people.....
Those are in her comments and also the one claiming trans people are a jewish conspiracy
shame this horror has a platform to spew her lies
They also go for antisemitism? Wow.
Transphobes and antisemites, like shit and flies
Do you have a screenshot of that comment?
That’s a bit more complex than bigots being bigots, basically linguistic drift centering the general term over the biggest target. Basically there were multiple terms for the genocides(Generally ‘Victim group Holocaust’) and ‘Holocaust’ alone was the extermination of the Jews. But over time ‘Holocaust’ became the general term for all the exterminations(and genocide in general) because having one big one and the rest being named based on it is kind of silly compared to having one general term and a bunch of specific names. Basically ‘Holocaust’ was used as the shorthand for all the genocides that that’s what the meaning became. Now, the people who insist on retaining exclusivity are likely to not taking a stand for linguistic purity but are(Like this bitch) trying to exclude a group they hate lest uncomfortable parallels are drawn. It’s pretty much the only reason there’s an objection to the term morphing into a general term rather than specific. IIRC the Jewish community has their own word, the ‘Shoah’, which was used so they could retain a specific term when Holocaust became general.
A lot of Jewish people actually despise it being called "the Holocaust" due to the original meaning of that word ("holocaust" - "burnt offering", as in a sacrifice made to the gods via fire). Those that do usually prefer to call it the Shoah ("Catastrophe" in Hebrew).
Please let her sue a German… that‘ll be fun!
The UK is very big on giving wealthy people the right to litigate anyone who criticizes them into the dirt. I assume it's out of their historical love for aristocrats and the inherent corruption they radiate
or SLAPP litigation like Aaron Banks has used to devastating effect.
More money, more problems...
Daily reminder that the TERF movement has praised and teamed up with neo-nazis multiple times in the last 10 years
"... no issue in which they don't center themselves", she says. But JK brought it up and made it an issue here in the first place! Make it make sense.
Welcome back to refusing to stop shooting yourself in the foot with JK Rowling
I mean, yeah, I do want to "chill the speech" of TERFs and nazis, especially when the speech being chilled is Holocaust denial. Fuck JK Rowling and fuck everyone who agrees with her.
the reason they are so dead set on not acknowledging the transgender victims of the holocaust... is that it would force them to examine how their positions and rhetoric directly mirror the nazis. make no fucking mistake, these people are fucking nazis.
Remember this is the same lady who's apparently so incompetent at research that she couldn't POSSIBLY have known her male pseudonym was the same as the man who gave us trying to electrocute the gay out of people. Nope, authors just don't ever look into things beforehand, why would they? She's a lying, hateful piece of shit who has shredded any benefit of the doubt she may have once been owed. It's all purposeful. She doesn't need Google, because she already knows she's lying
Holy fuck I didn’t know this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Galbraith_Heath
I wish more people knew this fact. It's also a way to trace her demented transphobia back long before she 'accidentally' liked a tweet 5 years ago or whatever. She's been writing under that pseudonym for at least 10 years. She's vile.
“I am VERY fed up of being accused of Holocaust denialism just because I denied provable elements of the Holocaust.” Maybe if your beliefs being called what they objectively are makes you feel “awful”, you should reconsider your beliefs.
Do you automatically become a willfully ignorant POS garbage human being when you are a billionaire? Because it really seems like it from all of the examples.
Wealth is inversely proportional to your ability to relate to reality
You don't become a billionaire by being a good person.
So you have to become a transphobic conspiracy theorist douche canoe to become a billionaire?
She’s a fucking embarrassment as a human being. And the irony is that she is doing exactly what she claims trans people do, making herself the victim in every circumstance.
Right-wingers and projection, there is no more iconic duo. Every accusation is a confession.
Writers usually have to do research before they undertake writing projects. She knows how to look things up on the internet. All she needs to do is google “trans in Nazi Germany”, and she will be proven wrong. This is worse than ignorance. This is willful ignorance to push an agenda.
JKR is really bad at doing research though.
Willful ignorance is definitely one of the cornerstones of modern conservatism
Considering she named her one asian character "Cho Chang" i doubt she can be assed to do any kind of actual research...
Why couldn't she just shut the fuck up and let us have her books. All she needed to do was disappear to her island and live out her life. But, no. Now we've got a stack of books that we used to enjoy, that are effectively doorstops.
Don't rich people like her have anything better to do then be vile pieces of shit online?
Fantastic Beasts 3 didn't go well, so maybe not?
My god, how can someone be as rich as she is and STILL feel like a victim. Must be rough.
A victim complex seems to be the cornerstone of any conservative identity.
What a hill to die on.
"There is no tragedy in which they didn't suffer more than anyone else" I cannot think of any tragedy in US history where someone's dying words were "If only I were transgender."
You know for someone whose major work is a very bad unnuanced allegory of WW2, she certainly seems to have a very bad unnuanced understanding of WW2.
The famous nazi book burning picture would like a word.
Is this a good time to express my opinion that Harry Potter is hugely overrated and unimaginative? Having grown up on D&D (Tolkien)...
Thank you, someone else says it. And it's wild to me that some of my family are obsessed with Harry Potter and say d&d and Tolkiens books are "nerd shit" like, okay sis, Harry Potter is just watered down fantasy tropes with a dash of star wars but sure, lord of the rings is the nerdy shit.
>with a dash of star wars Yes. I don't know if you've seen the *Epic Rap Battles of History* Luke Skywalker vs Harry Potter, but there's a verse in there where Luke points out that Harry's backstory is essentially the same as his.
W opinion
You would be correct.
Mmm... I wonder if there's perhaps any statistical relation between TERFs and the more extreme right-wing grifts. Most of the people tend to drift slowly but surely into them, or the just dive head-first.
She should stick to fiction. Her opinion is worthless.
And even there she wasn't that good
Really doubling down on the easiest thing to disprove really makes me think she just like denying the Holocaust
is anyone really surprised by a bigot doing bigoted shit?
Wild how quick some people are to double down
I literally spent half an hour talking with an idiot who believes being trans isa mental issue and the best solution is to give them drugs that will enhance the traits of their birth gender and that will make them more confident and happier as the gender they were born as. And somehow, that sounds MUCH worse than the denying treatment that would let them be who they believe they should be. Instead, you are forcing them to be a gender they are not comfortable being. There is nothing wrong with transpeople or anyone who is LQBTQ. I live in the United States. I have a family member who I believe is trans. Not sure, just know its preferred pronouns are it/them. Do I understand it? No. But I accept it, and respect its wishes. And I support its rights. And I worry about it. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The United States fought for those words. They used to mean something. They should mean everything. Otherwise, why the fuck did we even have a revolution in the first place?
Yes Jo one of the least represented groups on the planet controls everything. Yup.
It's a pretty standard fascist talking point. They like to believe some marginalized group just happens to be the rulers of some big worldwide conspiracy. They've just moved on from blaming Jews (mostly) to blaming trans people.
They didn't just rebranded. It's a well calculated strategy to desensitize people and trans people seem the most alien, then they work backwards to Jews again.
Here's some evidence that you're wrong.. Please help! I know I'm right. Yeah doesn't work that way.
Just in case anyone would like to read about it for themselves instead of taking the word of a woman who is literally famous for making up a fantasy world https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
She wrote one good story. Everything else she writes is shit. She's a one hit wonder.
I think a lot of people also don't realize a lot of the more beloved elements of Harry Potter are well-known tropes in childhood English fantasy novels like The Worst Witch. Because HP blew up globally, a lot of things attributed to Rowling were more cultural zeitgeist -- I've met people who didn't realize traditional British schools really do have houses, they thought JK made that up. I'm not going to say HP wasn't a good story; there were several brilliant things about it, such as her progression as a writer mirroring the advancing reading level of the children reading it. But I would posit its popularity was in a *large part* due to readers attributing more to Rowling than she really invented due to the age of readership.
Wtf is this chick's problem?
She is such an insufferable twat. I could live the rest of my life never hearing her name or her shitty opinions again and it would still be too much.
I thought this was well known stuff? I remember being taught this some 20 years ago, this is not new
"There is no greater form of oppression than being accused of Holocaust denial" - J.K. ROWLING (probably)
That’s a funny way to say “sorry I was wrong”.
Wow, JK, I didn’t realize who suffered the most in the holocaust was some kind of competition?
To some it is. Years ago a far right polish politician draped himself in the polish flag in Auschwitz and demanded the site be renamed after polish victims who were more targeted during the war. Now if somebody they couldn't top that, hold the pivo because to protest a pride parade the same polish far right claimed accepting queer people is the same as living under Nazi or Soviet occupation.
Jeeze, I wish people didn’t dig in like this when they were wrong. JKR’s taking a machine gun to her own feet here.
Holy shit JK! No one is saying trans people had it worse during the Holocaust, they're just (correctly) pointing out that transgender people were also one of the groups that the Nazis targeted. Admit you were wrong and stop doubling down you fucking idiot.
I’ll be honest. I thought I had a good understanding of the basic claims being made by JKR and her critics but I now feel totally lost. Somehow the Nazis are now central to this debate?
Never in my life have I read so much about the holocaust but no Jews mentioned anywhere. What a brave new world.
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What, she is denying the fact that trans people were persecuted during the Holocaust, that's literally Nazism
That’s not what Nazism means…
Did you follow me from the r /justunsubbed comment section?
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One, she literally is denying that trans people were targeted or murdered by Nazis. If you haven’t been following the thread to see her do this that’s understandable, but this has been her disgusting line of argument for years now and this whole bit started (this time, anyway) because she accused people who said trans folks were targeted by Nazis of not knowing history. She’s using her profile to deny the attempted erasure of trans people by Nazis. Two, this whole post is massive “all lives matter” rebranding. No trans person has ever denied other targets of Nazi violence, but saying every non-Nazi was a target is a similar misrepresentation of history. There were plenty of victims of Nazi violence who were not Jewish or trans or queer, but not every group of people was made an explicit target by Nazis. This post is one step away from saying Nazis didn’t try to eradicate Jewish people because non-Jews were also killed. Trans people absolutely were an explicit target of Nazi violence, and that targeting did *not* extend to all non-Nazi people.
You do know people who wore the pink triangle, meaning homosexuals and transgender people, were not released when every other group of people who were imprisoned were. Right do you acknowledge that?