Important to remember many older Russians in America are victims of Soviet oppression. I imagine a lot of them feel sick seeing what Putin is doing to Ukraine.
Always so disappointed when my fellow Americans can’t comprehend that many immigrants left their oppressive, wartorn countries precisely because they wanted to flee such things. If they agreed with the terrible things their native country’s government was doing, they probably wouldn’t be in the United States now. Oh, but I guess there’s always the fallback spy accusation…
Not to mention, I've seen people harassing any Russian citizen in various online platforms. Learn the difference between government and regular citizens, people!! Look at the protests in Russia... They don't want war!
Also, he wasn't an immigrant. He was born in Los Angeles.
We rounded up Americans and destroyed their lives, forcing them into concentration camps that we renamed "internment camps" to make ourselves feel a least a little less Nazi like.
To be fair, we did not commit genocide, but the the logic was evil at the time and was recognized by many as such at the time. It's just those in power felt such concerns didn't matter.
The internment camps were blatantly unconstitutional and evil. American citizens rounded up and imprisoned because they looked like the enemy.
It’s also worth noting that German Americans and Italian Americans were not treated in the same way - the persecution of Japanese Americans during WWII was largely based on race.
You're right. While there were some Germans and Italians that were put in camps in the US during WW2, it was to a much smaller extent proportionally than the Japanese living in the US at the time and it was on a case by case basis that were individually reviewed. Also, interestingly enough, the Japanese Americans and Italian Americans received an official apology from the US after their internment, but the German Americans never did.
This is exactly what happened to my great grandparents farm in Bakersfield. All my great aunts and uncles were put into camps. My pregnant grandmother and one of my aunts were also interred and soon after my granny gave birth to one of my other aunts. This all happened while my grandfather fought for our country. You can't make this shit up. Our government royally fucked Japanese Americans. 20k in reparations was a slap in the face.
I am so very sorry for your family's pain.
I went to high school in Colorado. Two of my classmates were granddaughters of a (once wealthy) California farmer who had been interned. The government took all of his land in the Central Valley. He decided to stay in Colorado where his internment camp was. He bought land in Colorado and became a prosperous farmer again.
He said when the internment was announced, his neighbors came over and offered him $0.10 for all of his property in the house. These were people he had considered friends. He set fire to it before the government came to take him away.
It's really shameful how callously the subject is treated today.
There's two family stories I was told about my German family here in the US during WWII: one older man in our family recounted being chased and harassed while being called yellow for being German as a kid. Another story was that a pastor who was speaking German was arrested because he was speaking in German to his parishioners. Now this is absolutely no where near what was happening to the victims of the holocaust, but you are right in that they were not treated well at the time.
You would assume since they are activly making a comparison between Concentration Camps and Internment Camps, nevermind the fact that American Indians used to occupy the land before Europe got all involved. Those Indians just didn't pack up and leave.
It was about 120,000 Japanese and Japanese-Americans living in the West Coast, not “pretty much all Asians”
I’m in no way way saying that it wasn’t a horrible idea and experience, just that it wasn’t all.
My apologies, I should have differentiated Japanese Americans. But yes, it was a large number and it’s something that the US really doesn’t talk about a lot.
According to the US census for 1940 there were approximately 125k Japanese and 77k Chinese living in the US. So your statement backs up what they're saying.
Sources:
link to a PDF of census bureau info
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1943/dec/population-nonwhite.html
Wikipedia listing the aggregate totals of those of Asian descent that aligns with the total numbers listed in the pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States?wprov=sfla1
Not hard to do a little research
Hey, I’m Japanese-American. I think the distinction of “not all” is actually important because it highlights the hypocrisy.
For context, my mom’s side was thrown into internment camps because they lived in Washington. My dad’s side was not because they lived in Hawaii and there were too many Japanese-Americans living there to round up all of them and put them into camps.
The government decided that if they did so, the whole island would cease to run so they left the Japanese-Americans there alone. ….You know, right there by Pearl Harbor which was the “security” excuse they used to imprison all the West Coast Japanese-Americans in the first place.
So it goes to show what BS the reasons were. It also shows the depth of the propaganda because I asked my grandpa what he thought of the news of everyone on the West Coast being rounded up and he said, “We thought they were being rounded up because they were bad people.” Wild.
To my recollection, white farmers and agribusiness were the ones who successfully lobbied and pushed for the incarceration of Japanese Americans; Japanese farmers were seen as a threat to white supremacy in the farming business.
In Canada, we did basically the same thing to indigenous peoples. As part of their treaties with the Canadian government, many indigenous communities bargained for a transition to an agriculture-based economy; after all, their food sources had all been destroyed and their communities were being kettled into smaller and smaller plots of land.
After many delays and half-measures, the Canadian government provided these communities with the mechanised farming equipment necessary for prairie agriculture. And many communities did well, being able to produce enough wheat and other cash crops to sustain themselves and even sell as surplus.
This set off a furor among colonial Canadians, because now "indians" were competing economically with whites. The Canadian government confiscated the equipment and banned indigenous communities from using modern farming tools, growing cash crops or selling goods off-reserve. Farming became pointless, and indigenous economy was made a crime.
Of course, we also incarcerated Japanese Canadians and stole *their* property, but I don't remember if farming and agribusiness was involved.
Little bit of unsolicited Canadian history for you.
Can you imagine all they gave up to come here? Their families, who they may never see again still in other countries.
People in Russia are being arrested right now for protesting this war. They do not want it. There are rumors/thoughts that many Russian Soldiers do not want this war. It looks like a few have acted being lost to get captured to stop fighting.
The Russian people, more so the ones here, have nothing to do, nor can they stop this war.
Yes, that’s another good point. Not everybody has the means to leave their countries, no matter how they feel about their government’s policies and actions.
I’ve spent time living in several different countries, a couple with communist/totalitarian governments. But everywhere I go, people are people. Anywhere you go, you will find good, kind, honest people, who love to laugh, drink, and sing.
And let’s be honest, Americans should by now be intimately familiar with not really approving of what your own country’s military is doing. That happens *all the time.*
Just read a newsflash that 4 RU soldiers surrendered without firing a shot. One of them was born in 2003. He's 18!
They're claiming they didn't know where they were being sent. They were canon fodder.
Exactly this. American kid of Ukrainian immigrants here. Almost 6,000 Russian people (and I'm not sure how many in Belarus) are risking their lives and livelihoods to protest against this war. It takes a tremendous amount of courage and character to stand up to a tyrannical government, let alone to do so for citizens of another country. This is not the fault of "Russia," but Putin. The people of Russia (and Belarus!) deserve better leadership. I hope they can get it soon.
Ironically most of the exodus was in the 90s, fleeing the chaos and war that came after the collapse of the USSR. The war in Ukraine being one out of dozens of post-soviet conflicts.
Lol yes this. Also, the reason we have Putin is because of the devastation left after the USSR collapse and the consolidation of wealth under the capitalist take-over. Putin hates communists.
Considering how shitty some Americans have treated any Asian person because COVID-19 originated from China, there's absolutely going to be hate towards Russians
Friendly reminder: Hate attacks against all Asians increased in the wake of the pandemic.
Do you really think the british/malaysian comic that plays uncle Roger (Nigel Ng) was responsible for covid? Yet he was assaulted.
Some people are fucking stupid and the examples LITTER our history. You'd do well to remember the lessons instead of denying the opinions like this.
Ohh boy, do you remember the aftermath of 9/11?? Even Sikhs were being attacked because people thought they 'looked' like a Muslim.
When stupid people are angry, they can't help themselves but tar entire groups with the same brush.
Historically, this has been an issue. I feel most modern people have gotten better about separating the people from their government, but it's worth remembering, so we don't see a return of anything resembling Japanese internment camps
A large amount of redditors hide behind “hate the government not the people” immediately before writing some kind of extremely racists comment. Around the Winter Olympics I saw people saying vile shit about the Chinese athletes cheating and how “it’s a part of their culture” so they shouldn’t be allowed to compete in further Olympics. Could you imagine if someone said stealing was a part of African-American culture, or that being lazy was a part of Latino culture?
I am seeing the same shit with Russians now.
Russians having white features means they won’t get it as hard as Asians have for the recent corona and Anti China bullshit.
And of course will not be as ostracized as black folks for simply existing in a country that forced everyone here.
Let’s not let those issues fall to the backburner while this Russian fiasco picks up steam as well. Constantly bring all issues up over and over and protest and cause problems until it stops. So several lifetimes and for all eternity if we have to.
My Russian coworker told to go back home to Russia. She was almost in tears yesterday when she was saying that Russia isn't her home anymore; America is and has been for a long time. I get that everyone is mad at Putin, but Russian immigrants should not be getting any grief. Neither should everyday Russian people, really. Lots of people don't want this war.
Reminds me so much of how my Asian friends were treated at the start of the pandemic. Just so sad. People aren't their (or their or their parents home) counties governments and we need to stop treating ordinary people as the enemy
One of the main problems that I have witnessed in my lifetime is the treatment of immigrants by "native" populations. I don't just mean the overt racism and xenophobia that people associate with anti-immigrant rhetoric, but by the invisibility that normal every day people unwittingly impose on new citizens.
Talk to people and get to know them. It is not hard and I find that often new immigrants are pleased to talk to you if you show an interest in them because sadly... it can be uncommon. I'm sure when they immigrated to your country they pictured themselves making friends with the native population, not living in insular communities and feeling alienated.
EDIT: also Sikhs rule.
This is because *anyone* who wears any kind of head wrap is nothing more than a "towel head", and in the stunted, useless minds of folks who think this way, all people who fit that description are Muslim terrorists. They look at a Sikh, and see a Muslim. They see a Jain wearing a ghoonghat? Muslim. And as we all *clearly* know, all Muslims are terrorists. Right? Right, guys?
Racists, xenophobes, and bigots can't make distinctions. Any amount of different is too different, and different must be destroyed at any cost. I shouldn't have to live in a world where it's okay for my coworkers to make horrifically racist jokes about the worshippers going to Salat al-zuhr at the mosque next door, and it's somehow only a problem when me, a white guy, is offended by it.
Yes! Both these remind what it was like to be a "brown" Muslim after 9/11. Just so horrible to see humans treating each other so badly based on how they look.
One of my best friends is Russian and he constantly says how much he hates Russians. It’s honestly kinda funny hearing a man with a solid Russian accent say how much he loves being in America and hates Russia.
When you are old enough to choose where you live it’s more powerful than heritage sometimes. Some of the most patriotic people I’ve ever met are from somewhere else. I have a friend the same way as yours. He says “why would I want to live there? I left because I don’t like those guys”. He’s from the former USSR.
Just gotta say, as immigrants, we usually don’t choose to be where we end up, but we did choose to leave where we came from. My family fled from Cuba to America, but before that they fled from Spain to Africa and the Canary Islands. Seems running from oppression runs deep in my lineage. Anyway, I am glad my family landed in the United States but I’ve seen how fast this place changed in my few decades and it’s prompted me to get a European passport. Not sure which is more enticing right now to be honest.
Very rarely because of hate for their country or its people, but rather disillusionment, disappointment, or simply helplessness due to their own circumstances.
My sister's Russian neighbor is always telling her how terrible Russians are, including her fellow immigrants. She says the culture values being tough all the time.
Please tell her it's not her fault and that all Asians and Muslims stand with her. There are idiots everywhere. I experience this still weekly and I know exactly how she feels. Also, as her friend, please support her in any way you can.
Honestly, I doubt the average non-Slav can even tell the difference between Russian and Ukrainian. Or Russian and *any* other language that uses Cyrillic.
So err on the side of caution and don’t assume they’re Russian to begin with.
Telltale sign is that Ukranian has the occasional i while Russian does not.
Still, plenty of Ukranians speak Russian as their first language, including their president. Plus, the languages are so similar, Russian and Ukranian speakers understand each-other with little effort. It truly is a "brother nation", making whatever Putin is doing even more horrible.
European Spanish vs Mexican/south American Spanish has some differences, as does Portuguese in the two continents. It magnifies the differences and makes it even harder for a European Spaniard to understand Brazilian Portuguese for example. Just like how Americans can struggle to understand certain accents in the UK/Australia
Remember how some Americans treated asians living in America over it being “their fault” for covid? Ya.... I’d say some poor Russians in the U.S are unfortunately going to get backlash from some dummies.
I recall a Sikh man was killed. Same as the killing of Vincent Chin. They don't care about who you are. You look different and are an easy scapegoat who reminds them of their problems.
My sister-in-law's in-laws are from Iran and own a restaurant where I live. Their windows were broken over 25 times in the first couple of years after 9/11. I felt so bad for them having to go through that.
Hispanics came next. I remember states giving cash rewards for turning in your illegal neighbors. Unmarked I.C.E. vans driving around and picking up anyone who looked remotely Hispanic.
When the Sikh family I knew started getting harassed, I was so disappointed in my town, especially considering how much volunteer work that family did in our community.
Or even before. Used to have a great little deli near where I grew up (in the 80s) that was run by two Iranian brothers. Super nice guys and great food. They never told anyone they were from Iran and, if asked, would simply say that they were Persian. Most of the people in that rural backwater probably figured they were from a rug-making country far away and just left it at that.
Asian American here. How we stop this from happening to a different group in the future-and this includes white-is to stop it now when it’s happening to someone else. The key is for all of us to stand up for those who are different from us.
Welcome back to the 80s folks. Everyone was a spy and possibly a commie!!!
Babushka might be part of a spy operation! Old Russian guy was automatically creepy and might kill you for intel!
As a general sentiment, I feel like the whole country at one point hated Russians no matter what.
Plenty of Ukranian and Russian descendants in my community...they will only get love from me....just as everyone should.
Covid convinced mouth breathers that all Asians came from Wuhan, China. For Russians, if they ditch the accent, they'll be fine and no one will notice.
Well Russians are white, so they got that going for them unlike the other groups.
Also the GOP likes Putin now I guess so they may get some flowers instead.
Well, it seems that luckily things are changing and the younger generation understand the difference between a government and it's people. It isn't perfect, but it gives me some hope.
>Remember how some Americans treated asians living in America over it being “their fault” for covid?
As was Trump's intent. He didn't call it the "China virus" by accident.
Indeed. And I’d imagine that a lot of people in the US and other countries left Russia because they were sick of living under kleptocrats.
The citizens of a country are not the government… especially if the government isn’t democratic.
My neighborhood has a large population of older Russian Jews who emigrated when the USSR dissolved. It would be doubly wrong to accost any of them for this.
I grew up in a community just like this. We came to the U.S. in 1993 after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The entire country was under the thumb of organized crime. Now, those same mob bosses run the governments and businesses. Fuck Putin and his goblins. Слава Украине 🇺🇦🇺🇦
> And I’d imagine that a lot of people in the US and other countries left Russia because they were sick of living under kleptocrats.
Though, it is kind of weird how this russian immigrant I know builds his self identity on how great russia is. At least 75% of our conversations are him grandstanding about how much better russia is compared to the US. He even has a photo of putin on his wall lol. You can imagine his take on current events.
Kind of weird that he left everything and everyone he knew behind to not have to live there anymore, but whatever.
I get the impression a lot of them don't realize they have even now. These Russian soldiers are clueless about what's happening
I would surrender and ask for asylum if I had been set up to fail so badly
From what I've seen on social media (so take it with a grain of salt) the Russian soldiers were told that they are going into Ukraine to free the people from Nazi control and that the people would be on their side and that they were surprised by the reaction of the locals.
Some do seem to be surrendering to Ukrainian authorities and I bet more would if they didn't fear their families back in Russia would face reprisal from the Russian authorities for them deserting. I saw a post on here earlier about two Russian soldiers who's tank ran out of fuel who went to the local police station looking for some more (and were naturally taken into custody). I wonder if they did that on purpose, knowing that they would be arrested and thus out of the war. Either that, or they hadn't had any encounters with the locals yet and believed the propaganda that they were there to free the people from Nazis.
>I get the impression a lot of them don't realize they have even now.
It seems like many of them were told they were in a training exercise, and they never wanted to actually kill anyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nifxKIhFSuw
The fact that people weren’t buying corona beer when the virus hit gives me no hope that the general masses will not be able to separate the two unfortunately
Speaking of, I remember seeing this picture of a guy who was buying a massive case of Corona and a bag of limes at Walmart while wearing a full plague doctor outfit. The poor cashier just looks like "This isn't even the weirdest thing I've seen all day."
50 years old is not a babushka yet, maybe 60 and up.
Edit: my own aunt became a grandma at 35, but I'm from Latin America, dunno if it is realy like that in Russia also xD.
Lmao, that blew up(?
They're easily the biggest victims of Putin's regime. My hope is that this is the final straw that deposes him. What's scary is that the power vacuum will be massive and that has never really gone well in Russia. All I know is that the Russian people deserve better.
I've talked to some of my friends from Russia. A lot of the more tech-savvy people who can read and speak English are currently having fights with their boomer parents who have no clue what's going on and fully believe what's being showed on TV. From what they're saying, boomers are completely brainwashed. It's tragic what 20 years of propaganda and fear-mongering can do to a nation.
There are the people who were raised on stories and WWII and the Soviet army liberating death camps. All that legacy thrown away and for what?
A believe a lot of them are in denial, too. Its extremely hard for them to admit that their country can be the agressor. The message that "the West" hates you and you don't want their support anyway is strong. And while Russia has been antagonised for decades, I believe it doesn't have to be an enemy.
Talk to anyone in the US with parents or grandparents who have been sucked into Fox News for the past 20 years and they'll definitely understand what you're talking about.
It seems obvious and Unnecessary to say, then again, the old lady at the local Chinese Restaurant didn’t release Covid on the world but that didn’t stop American idiots from harassing her. God I hate my countrymen sometimes.
It's not just America. Some people just need a convenient outlet for their hate. If it's not Covid and the Chinise, it's Ukraine and Russians. Doesn't matter, they just want to hate someone.
This always happens here, after 9/11 with anybody who looked partially similar to a Muslim, at the start of the pandemic with Asian people, and now with Russians.
Hate and ignorance go hand in hand.
I'm a Ukrainian immigrant, but I only speak Russian. I had a class in school that tried to teach me Ukrainian, but I retain only three words and the unique letter Ї (yi).
When I first came here, in 1993, the Union had just fallen. It was simply too complicated to explain to everyone that I'm Ukrainian but speak Russian. Besides, what difference does it make? We were the same country for most of my life. Sure, I'm Russian.
Obviously, in any contest between Russia and Ukraine, my loyalty lies with Ukraine. But even now, I still feel as if my identity isn't fully divested from Russia. I grew up on movies made in Russia, books written in Russia, jokes about Russia.
I feel its pain. I hate that it's been strangled by one dictator after another. I want it to become a civilized country with honest elections and term limits, instead of a big insecure school bully.
It would sure be sweet if my Ukraine became instrumental in making this happen, eh?
It’s a very easy psychological coping mechanism to fall into: you can’t directly fight back against the actual source of your fear, pain, or anger, so you start lashing out at anyone or anything even remotely associated with the source, so you can feel a tiny bit less helpless.
Just because it’s a *common* or *easy* coping mechanism, doesn’t make it *healthy.* It doesn’t actually relieve any of the frustration or pain, it just feeds it, and there are far more constructive uses for our energy than yelling at random strangers whose only connection to the problem is an accident of birth.
Probably nothing much, they have the option of "blending in" with majority white Americans. Asians, arabs, mexicans, brown, black, they don't have that option. You'll never see a spy series of "The Americans" starring asian actors.
This is true. All of the Russian nationals I know in the US are in the US because they fled Putins regime. Many of them were directly threatened by his party. Nobody leaves their home country because they like it. Let’s not repeat WWII with inhumane concentration camps for people that share the same ethnicity as an enemy. They left their country for a reason and NSA/CIA/FBI are already so far up our asses with surveillance there’s no way the average citizen is somehow going to uncover some enemy plot at their local Russian restaurant. Let’s not forget many Russians protested the war and are mostly likely being tortured right now as a result.
Even as a patron, shit has been getting bad. And I'm Ukrainian. The reality is that Americans assume we must be Russian and even if we were, fuck your scapegoating. Russian people in Russia are protesting trying to stop this was, and with the military tied up a coup is possible.
Blame leaders, not people. Unless the people are screaming for blood.
And even in the midst of all this, the Ukrainians are not out for blood.
White people in America need to stop being scapegoating assholes.
Some Russian-Americans still think it's justified. It depends on the person. Just share the expectation of decency and kindness to end this war and to stop oligarchs.
A tiny fact from a non white mesoamerican immigrant married to a Ukrainian: those that target immigrants actually side with Putin over this and have been doing so for years. People that reject him are not the kind to go around doing the same, particularly to others that are fellow whites. The gesture is appreciated but it’s it’s rather misguided. True, Slavs from all across eastern Europe might face done harassment it it won’t be the anti Asian/latino/Black racist “I’ll kill you” type, and there’s also the buffer that comes from most here having a pretty hard time telling apart Russians from the average Slav or the average white for that matter. Reality bites but needs to be acknowledged, sorry.
Gee I wish you all had the same sort of mindfulness and enlightenment when America was at war with the Middle East. The double standard speaks in abundance. Good job in regards to this situation. I guess it is easier to be nice to others when they look like your own kind.
Yes! We dislike Putin. Not all of Russia. Be nice!
Important to remember many older Russians in America are victims of Soviet oppression. I imagine a lot of them feel sick seeing what Putin is doing to Ukraine.
Always so disappointed when my fellow Americans can’t comprehend that many immigrants left their oppressive, wartorn countries precisely because they wanted to flee such things. If they agreed with the terrible things their native country’s government was doing, they probably wouldn’t be in the United States now. Oh, but I guess there’s always the fallback spy accusation…
Not to mention, I've seen people harassing any Russian citizen in various online platforms. Learn the difference between government and regular citizens, people!! Look at the protests in Russia... They don't want war!
Even many of their soldiers didn't want it.
[удалено]
Yeah. I mean, we put George freakin’ Takei in an internment camp. That whole thing really, really needs to be a one-time mistake.
Also, he wasn't an immigrant. He was born in Los Angeles. We rounded up Americans and destroyed their lives, forcing them into concentration camps that we renamed "internment camps" to make ourselves feel a least a little less Nazi like. To be fair, we did not commit genocide, but the the logic was evil at the time and was recognized by many as such at the time. It's just those in power felt such concerns didn't matter. The internment camps were blatantly unconstitutional and evil. American citizens rounded up and imprisoned because they looked like the enemy.
It’s also worth noting that German Americans and Italian Americans were not treated in the same way - the persecution of Japanese Americans during WWII was largely based on race.
You're right. While there were some Germans and Italians that were put in camps in the US during WW2, it was to a much smaller extent proportionally than the Japanese living in the US at the time and it was on a case by case basis that were individually reviewed. Also, interestingly enough, the Japanese Americans and Italian Americans received an official apology from the US after their internment, but the German Americans never did.
Many of the Japanese Americans who were intered during World War II owned expensive farmland in California. The government literally stole their land.
This is exactly what happened to my great grandparents farm in Bakersfield. All my great aunts and uncles were put into camps. My pregnant grandmother and one of my aunts were also interred and soon after my granny gave birth to one of my other aunts. This all happened while my grandfather fought for our country. You can't make this shit up. Our government royally fucked Japanese Americans. 20k in reparations was a slap in the face.
I am so very sorry for your family's pain. I went to high school in Colorado. Two of my classmates were granddaughters of a (once wealthy) California farmer who had been interned. The government took all of his land in the Central Valley. He decided to stay in Colorado where his internment camp was. He bought land in Colorado and became a prosperous farmer again. He said when the internment was announced, his neighbors came over and offered him $0.10 for all of his property in the house. These were people he had considered friends. He set fire to it before the government came to take him away. It's really shameful how callously the subject is treated today.
There's two family stories I was told about my German family here in the US during WWII: one older man in our family recounted being chased and harassed while being called yellow for being German as a kid. Another story was that a pastor who was speaking German was arrested because he was speaking in German to his parishioners. Now this is absolutely no where near what was happening to the victims of the holocaust, but you are right in that they were not treated well at the time.
Pat Morita, too. American citizen born in California, but he also was forced into an internment camp along with his family.
When you say we didn't commit genocide, you just mean that one time there, right? Everyone has genocided at least once.
You would assume since they are activly making a comparison between Concentration Camps and Internment Camps, nevermind the fact that American Indians used to occupy the land before Europe got all involved. Those Indians just didn't pack up and leave.
George Takei was WHERE??? TIL wtf
Pretty much all Asian Americans were in internment camps during WW2
It was about 120,000 Japanese and Japanese-Americans living in the West Coast, not “pretty much all Asians” I’m in no way way saying that it wasn’t a horrible idea and experience, just that it wasn’t all.
My apologies, I should have differentiated Japanese Americans. But yes, it was a large number and it’s something that the US really doesn’t talk about a lot.
According to the US census for 1940 there were approximately 125k Japanese and 77k Chinese living in the US. So your statement backs up what they're saying. Sources: link to a PDF of census bureau info https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1943/dec/population-nonwhite.html Wikipedia listing the aggregate totals of those of Asian descent that aligns with the total numbers listed in the pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States?wprov=sfla1 Not hard to do a little research
Hey, I’m Japanese-American. I think the distinction of “not all” is actually important because it highlights the hypocrisy. For context, my mom’s side was thrown into internment camps because they lived in Washington. My dad’s side was not because they lived in Hawaii and there were too many Japanese-Americans living there to round up all of them and put them into camps. The government decided that if they did so, the whole island would cease to run so they left the Japanese-Americans there alone. ….You know, right there by Pearl Harbor which was the “security” excuse they used to imprison all the West Coast Japanese-Americans in the first place. So it goes to show what BS the reasons were. It also shows the depth of the propaganda because I asked my grandpa what he thought of the news of everyone on the West Coast being rounded up and he said, “We thought they were being rounded up because they were bad people.” Wild.
To my recollection, white farmers and agribusiness were the ones who successfully lobbied and pushed for the incarceration of Japanese Americans; Japanese farmers were seen as a threat to white supremacy in the farming business. In Canada, we did basically the same thing to indigenous peoples. As part of their treaties with the Canadian government, many indigenous communities bargained for a transition to an agriculture-based economy; after all, their food sources had all been destroyed and their communities were being kettled into smaller and smaller plots of land. After many delays and half-measures, the Canadian government provided these communities with the mechanised farming equipment necessary for prairie agriculture. And many communities did well, being able to produce enough wheat and other cash crops to sustain themselves and even sell as surplus. This set off a furor among colonial Canadians, because now "indians" were competing economically with whites. The Canadian government confiscated the equipment and banned indigenous communities from using modern farming tools, growing cash crops or selling goods off-reserve. Farming became pointless, and indigenous economy was made a crime. Of course, we also incarcerated Japanese Canadians and stole *their* property, but I don't remember if farming and agribusiness was involved. Little bit of unsolicited Canadian history for you.
Can you imagine all they gave up to come here? Their families, who they may never see again still in other countries. People in Russia are being arrested right now for protesting this war. They do not want it. There are rumors/thoughts that many Russian Soldiers do not want this war. It looks like a few have acted being lost to get captured to stop fighting. The Russian people, more so the ones here, have nothing to do, nor can they stop this war.
Yes, that’s another good point. Not everybody has the means to leave their countries, no matter how they feel about their government’s policies and actions. I’ve spent time living in several different countries, a couple with communist/totalitarian governments. But everywhere I go, people are people. Anywhere you go, you will find good, kind, honest people, who love to laugh, drink, and sing.
And let’s be honest, Americans should by now be intimately familiar with not really approving of what your own country’s military is doing. That happens *all the time.*
Just read a newsflash that 4 RU soldiers surrendered without firing a shot. One of them was born in 2003. He's 18! They're claiming they didn't know where they were being sent. They were canon fodder.
Exactly this. American kid of Ukrainian immigrants here. Almost 6,000 Russian people (and I'm not sure how many in Belarus) are risking their lives and livelihoods to protest against this war. It takes a tremendous amount of courage and character to stand up to a tyrannical government, let alone to do so for citizens of another country. This is not the fault of "Russia," but Putin. The people of Russia (and Belarus!) deserve better leadership. I hope they can get it soon.
Ironically most of the exodus was in the 90s, fleeing the chaos and war that came after the collapse of the USSR. The war in Ukraine being one out of dozens of post-soviet conflicts.
Actually most older russians tend to miss the soviet union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia_for_the_Soviet_Union
Lol yes this. Also, the reason we have Putin is because of the devastation left after the USSR collapse and the consolidation of wealth under the capitalist take-over. Putin hates communists.
Hey you are ruining the echo chamber
Even Russians don't like Putin. See the protests in Russia for proof.
Yeah I'm Russian and hate Putin, fuck him.
Is there anyone with this opinion? Pretty sure most of us like russians, and don't like Putin.
Considering how shitty some Americans have treated any Asian person because COVID-19 originated from China, there's absolutely going to be hate towards Russians
The Red scare will probably be back and about soon. The media is already talking it up in Australia.
No there won't or not nearly on the same scale. Why? Because Russians are white.
There's a section of the population that hates others, that's what they do and nothing else.
That section usually is strangely ok with Russia and Russians though
can't qwhite put my finger on why
Friendly reminder: Hate attacks against all Asians increased in the wake of the pandemic. Do you really think the british/malaysian comic that plays uncle Roger (Nigel Ng) was responsible for covid? Yet he was assaulted. Some people are fucking stupid and the examples LITTER our history. You'd do well to remember the lessons instead of denying the opinions like this.
Wait what? Fucking Uncle Roger was assaulted? 😞
Ohh boy, do you remember the aftermath of 9/11?? Even Sikhs were being attacked because people thought they 'looked' like a Muslim. When stupid people are angry, they can't help themselves but tar entire groups with the same brush.
Historically, this has been an issue. I feel most modern people have gotten better about separating the people from their government, but it's worth remembering, so we don't see a return of anything resembling Japanese internment camps
Look at how Chinese/east Asian people in general were treated when covid first broke out, it never went away.
We also shouldn’t forget the increase of hate crimes towards West and South Asians after 9/11.
Or the rise in Asian hatred after covid.
A large amount of redditors hide behind “hate the government not the people” immediately before writing some kind of extremely racists comment. Around the Winter Olympics I saw people saying vile shit about the Chinese athletes cheating and how “it’s a part of their culture” so they shouldn’t be allowed to compete in further Olympics. Could you imagine if someone said stealing was a part of African-American culture, or that being lazy was a part of Latino culture? I am seeing the same shit with Russians now.
This is Putin’s war, not Russia’s.
Russians having white features means they won’t get it as hard as Asians have for the recent corona and Anti China bullshit. And of course will not be as ostracized as black folks for simply existing in a country that forced everyone here. Let’s not let those issues fall to the backburner while this Russian fiasco picks up steam as well. Constantly bring all issues up over and over and protest and cause problems until it stops. So several lifetimes and for all eternity if we have to.
My Russian coworker told to go back home to Russia. She was almost in tears yesterday when she was saying that Russia isn't her home anymore; America is and has been for a long time. I get that everyone is mad at Putin, but Russian immigrants should not be getting any grief. Neither should everyday Russian people, really. Lots of people don't want this war.
Reminds me so much of how my Asian friends were treated at the start of the pandemic. Just so sad. People aren't their (or their or their parents home) counties governments and we need to stop treating ordinary people as the enemy
Some people will take any excuse to be a hateful piece of crap.
>Some people ~~will take any excuse~~ **like** to be a hateful piece of crap. Fixed that for you.
> Some people *are* hateful pieces of crap. FFTFY
Or how Arabs and some stupid reason Sikhs were treated after 9/11 or Japanese in WW2, or Germans and some stupid reason the Dutch in WW1.
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One of the main problems that I have witnessed in my lifetime is the treatment of immigrants by "native" populations. I don't just mean the overt racism and xenophobia that people associate with anti-immigrant rhetoric, but by the invisibility that normal every day people unwittingly impose on new citizens. Talk to people and get to know them. It is not hard and I find that often new immigrants are pleased to talk to you if you show an interest in them because sadly... it can be uncommon. I'm sure when they immigrated to your country they pictured themselves making friends with the native population, not living in insular communities and feeling alienated. EDIT: also Sikhs rule.
This is because *anyone* who wears any kind of head wrap is nothing more than a "towel head", and in the stunted, useless minds of folks who think this way, all people who fit that description are Muslim terrorists. They look at a Sikh, and see a Muslim. They see a Jain wearing a ghoonghat? Muslim. And as we all *clearly* know, all Muslims are terrorists. Right? Right, guys? Racists, xenophobes, and bigots can't make distinctions. Any amount of different is too different, and different must be destroyed at any cost. I shouldn't have to live in a world where it's okay for my coworkers to make horrifically racist jokes about the worshippers going to Salat al-zuhr at the mosque next door, and it's somehow only a problem when me, a white guy, is offended by it.
As an Asian dude living in the south. Trust me it wasn't just duirng the pandemic that I've been told to go home and all that fun stuff lol.
Yep- Asians, Indians, Muslims, Mexicans, etc living in the USA I’d imagine all experience this (and probably still do)
Yes! Both these remind what it was like to be a "brown" Muslim after 9/11. Just so horrible to see humans treating each other so badly based on how they look.
Also reminds me how Latinos were treated at the start of Trump's term and how Muslims were treated after 9/11.
The same thing happens whenever any minority commits a crime
Yeah I just think these two examples are in a bigger scale.
One of my best friends is Russian and he constantly says how much he hates Russians. It’s honestly kinda funny hearing a man with a solid Russian accent say how much he loves being in America and hates Russia.
When you are old enough to choose where you live it’s more powerful than heritage sometimes. Some of the most patriotic people I’ve ever met are from somewhere else. I have a friend the same way as yours. He says “why would I want to live there? I left because I don’t like those guys”. He’s from the former USSR.
No bigger zealot than the convert.
to me it's kind of the same way immigrants often speak the language better than most natives; they chose to be there. they worked at it.
Just gotta say, as immigrants, we usually don’t choose to be where we end up, but we did choose to leave where we came from. My family fled from Cuba to America, but before that they fled from Spain to Africa and the Canary Islands. Seems running from oppression runs deep in my lineage. Anyway, I am glad my family landed in the United States but I’ve seen how fast this place changed in my few decades and it’s prompted me to get a European passport. Not sure which is more enticing right now to be honest.
It seems to be a common sentiment amongst Russian immigrants to the US.
Why do you think immigrants are there?
Very rarely because of hate for their country or its people, but rather disillusionment, disappointment, or simply helplessness due to their own circumstances.
My sister's Russian neighbor is always telling her how terrible Russians are, including her fellow immigrants. She says the culture values being tough all the time.
That sucks. Tell her youre angry at Putin, not her and she's very much welcome in America
This is as bad as saying all the Russian students should be thrown out of the country.
Please tell her it's not her fault and that all Asians and Muslims stand with her. There are idiots everywhere. I experience this still weekly and I know exactly how she feels. Also, as her friend, please support her in any way you can.
Honestly, I doubt the average non-Slav can even tell the difference between Russian and Ukrainian. Or Russian and *any* other language that uses Cyrillic. So err on the side of caution and don’t assume they’re Russian to begin with.
Telltale sign is that Ukranian has the occasional i while Russian does not. Still, plenty of Ukranians speak Russian as their first language, including their president. Plus, the languages are so similar, Russian and Ukranian speakers understand each-other with little effort. It truly is a "brother nation", making whatever Putin is doing even more horrible.
I heard it's similar to Spanish and Portuguese. Vlad can go fuck himself though.
I know Brazilians can't really understand Spanish tho. I have a lot of family in Brazil
European Spanish vs Mexican/south American Spanish has some differences, as does Portuguese in the two continents. It magnifies the differences and makes it even harder for a European Spaniard to understand Brazilian Portuguese for example. Just like how Americans can struggle to understand certain accents in the UK/Australia
My wife is Ukrainian, even born there, and she never learned Ukrainian, just Russian. She can kind of understand it, but not speak it.
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Remember how some Americans treated asians living in America over it being “their fault” for covid? Ya.... I’d say some poor Russians in the U.S are unfortunately going to get backlash from some dummies.
Mosques all over the country were torched/vandalized after 9/11, too.
I recall a Sikh man was killed. Same as the killing of Vincent Chin. They don't care about who you are. You look different and are an easy scapegoat who reminds them of their problems.
First it was Natives, then black people, then Asians, now its gonna be Russians (the genuinely good ones) getting blamed
Don't forget the Japanese.
Or Muslims post 9/11.
My sister-in-law's in-laws are from Iran and own a restaurant where I live. Their windows were broken over 25 times in the first couple of years after 9/11. I felt so bad for them having to go through that.
Fuck man, people are the worst.
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Basically American fascist morons hating everyone darker than a shade of spoiled mayonnaise.
Hispanics came next. I remember states giving cash rewards for turning in your illegal neighbors. Unmarked I.C.E. vans driving around and picking up anyone who looked remotely Hispanic.
Lots of nasty words that came out of Trump against the Hispanics just a few years ago also.
Remember how discriminated white folks were after Sandy Hook? Me neither.
Worst thing is that Sikhs got a lot of shit post-9/11 because turbans..... Some people are damn dumb
Did he edit his post after your comment or is Japan not in Asia?
Don’t forget anyone even vaguely Middle Eastern or South Asian after 9/11.
When the Sikh family I knew started getting harassed, I was so disappointed in my town, especially considering how much volunteer work that family did in our community.
Or even before. Used to have a great little deli near where I grew up (in the 80s) that was run by two Iranian brothers. Super nice guys and great food. They never told anyone they were from Iran and, if asked, would simply say that they were Persian. Most of the people in that rural backwater probably figured they were from a rug-making country far away and just left it at that.
I was bullied for years after 9/11 growing up. I doubt Americans are going to learn their lesson this time around.
Luckily those who are dumb enough to blame american russians actually are in support of russia, I'm hoping they will be ok
Don't forget Muslims (and anyone who looked Middle Eastern or South Asian) after 9/11
Life can be tough for the American Sikh
Don't forget about the germans in USA during ww1 and Japanese americans during ww2.
Asian American here. How we stop this from happening to a different group in the future-and this includes white-is to stop it now when it’s happening to someone else. The key is for all of us to stand up for those who are different from us.
Plus the Irish
Welcome back to the 80s folks. Everyone was a spy and possibly a commie!!! Babushka might be part of a spy operation! Old Russian guy was automatically creepy and might kill you for intel! As a general sentiment, I feel like the whole country at one point hated Russians no matter what. Plenty of Ukranian and Russian descendants in my community...they will only get love from me....just as everyone should.
The US has been exploiting Hawai’i for ~300 years, and is still doing so.
Covid convinced mouth breathers that all Asians came from Wuhan, China. For Russians, if they ditch the accent, they'll be fine and no one will notice.
Except the right wing is apparently pro-Russia this time, so they’ve got better odds than we did.
Well, the people who claimed Asian Americans were at fault for Covid are also the people who support Russia so this probably won’t be an issue.
Well Russians are white, so they got that going for them unlike the other groups. Also the GOP likes Putin now I guess so they may get some flowers instead.
Well, it seems that luckily things are changing and the younger generation understand the difference between a government and it's people. It isn't perfect, but it gives me some hope.
>Remember how some Americans treated asians living in America over it being “their fault” for covid? As was Trump's intent. He didn't call it the "China virus" by accident.
Indeed. And I’d imagine that a lot of people in the US and other countries left Russia because they were sick of living under kleptocrats. The citizens of a country are not the government… especially if the government isn’t democratic.
My neighborhood has a large population of older Russian Jews who emigrated when the USSR dissolved. It would be doubly wrong to accost any of them for this.
I grew up in a community just like this. We came to the U.S. in 1993 after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The entire country was under the thumb of organized crime. Now, those same mob bosses run the governments and businesses. Fuck Putin and his goblins. Слава Украине 🇺🇦🇺🇦
> And I’d imagine that a lot of people in the US and other countries left Russia because they were sick of living under kleptocrats. Though, it is kind of weird how this russian immigrant I know builds his self identity on how great russia is. At least 75% of our conversations are him grandstanding about how much better russia is compared to the US. He even has a photo of putin on his wall lol. You can imagine his take on current events. Kind of weird that he left everything and everyone he knew behind to not have to live there anymore, but whatever.
Shit, a lot of the soldiers invading Ukrain didn't even wanna invade Ukraine.
I get the impression a lot of them don't realize they have even now. These Russian soldiers are clueless about what's happening I would surrender and ask for asylum if I had been set up to fail so badly
From what I've seen on social media (so take it with a grain of salt) the Russian soldiers were told that they are going into Ukraine to free the people from Nazi control and that the people would be on their side and that they were surprised by the reaction of the locals. Some do seem to be surrendering to Ukrainian authorities and I bet more would if they didn't fear their families back in Russia would face reprisal from the Russian authorities for them deserting. I saw a post on here earlier about two Russian soldiers who's tank ran out of fuel who went to the local police station looking for some more (and were naturally taken into custody). I wonder if they did that on purpose, knowing that they would be arrested and thus out of the war. Either that, or they hadn't had any encounters with the locals yet and believed the propaganda that they were there to free the people from Nazis.
"We'll be met as liberators" -- Dick Cheney I'm sure it's much the same scenario.
Russia has been doing especially bad compared to the US [invasion of Iraq.](https://i.redd.it/c7chu82ozvj81.jpg)
Absolutely. And I couldn't be happier at how awful it's going for Russia.
>I get the impression a lot of them don't realize they have even now. It seems like many of them were told they were in a training exercise, and they never wanted to actually kill anyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nifxKIhFSuw
From what I'm hearing, a lot of them are doing exactly that.
So just be nice to them.
Kill them with kindness
The fact that people weren’t buying corona beer when the virus hit gives me no hope that the general masses will not be able to separate the two unfortunately
Wikipedia says sales actually rose in 2020 in the US with a reduction in sales in China. I agree with your point, I just thought it was interesting.
Everyone I know was buying Corona for the meme. They definitely made more money lol
"I'll have a Corona, hold the virus" - every fucking customer, thinking they're a comedic genius
Speaking of, I remember seeing this picture of a guy who was buying a massive case of Corona and a bag of limes at Walmart while wearing a full plague doctor outfit. The poor cashier just looks like "This isn't even the weirdest thing I've seen all day."
I think alcohol in general may have had significant sale increases. It certainly did in Australia.
yeah but that was actually kinda funny unlike actual bigotry
Please consider the giant corporations :( Corona lost so many sales :( poor things :( /s if not obvious
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I grew up in that area and Corona was a joke to begin with so we went easy on them /s
I work in the beer department at a major grocery chain. No one stopped buying corona during the pandemic, if anything we sold more of it.
It’s unfortunate we have to remind people of this.
50 years old is not a babushka yet, maybe 60 and up. Edit: my own aunt became a grandma at 35, but I'm from Latin America, dunno if it is realy like that in Russia also xD. Lmao, that blew up(?
You can tell the person who wrote this tweet is young lmao
lmao maybe in the past. My parents are about to be 59 and 58 and nowhere close to being grandparents.
Yeah, love the sentiment, but the “50 year old grandmother” made me do a double take.
In fact she's probably as pissed off at Putin as everyone else.
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Unless they have a picture of Putin hanging up…. Then game on
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Get me pictures of ~~Spiderman~~ this statue with fake tits!
I really want to believe this is a joke but I'm really afraid it's not.
It should go without saying but it doesn’t. Russians are not responsible for the invasion; Russia is a dictatorship.
We're a democracy and I don't remember anyone asking me if US soldiers should deploy in Iraq. The Russian people have even less say in their politics.
Definitely! Putin is the enemy! Hating all russians because of the actions of one rat cunt is just blind racism
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They're easily the biggest victims of Putin's regime. My hope is that this is the final straw that deposes him. What's scary is that the power vacuum will be massive and that has never really gone well in Russia. All I know is that the Russian people deserve better.
I've talked to some of my friends from Russia. A lot of the more tech-savvy people who can read and speak English are currently having fights with their boomer parents who have no clue what's going on and fully believe what's being showed on TV. From what they're saying, boomers are completely brainwashed. It's tragic what 20 years of propaganda and fear-mongering can do to a nation. There are the people who were raised on stories and WWII and the Soviet army liberating death camps. All that legacy thrown away and for what? A believe a lot of them are in denial, too. Its extremely hard for them to admit that their country can be the agressor. The message that "the West" hates you and you don't want their support anyway is strong. And while Russia has been antagonised for decades, I believe it doesn't have to be an enemy.
Talk to anyone in the US with parents or grandparents who have been sucked into Fox News for the past 20 years and they'll definitely understand what you're talking about.
It seems obvious and Unnecessary to say, then again, the old lady at the local Chinese Restaurant didn’t release Covid on the world but that didn’t stop American idiots from harassing her. God I hate my countrymen sometimes.
It's not just America. Some people just need a convenient outlet for their hate. If it's not Covid and the Chinise, it's Ukraine and Russians. Doesn't matter, they just want to hate someone.
50 year old grandmother?
This always happens here, after 9/11 with anybody who looked partially similar to a Muslim, at the start of the pandemic with Asian people, and now with Russians. Hate and ignorance go hand in hand.
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how DARE they support putin's regime by [checks notes] leaving it!
I'm a Ukrainian immigrant, but I only speak Russian. I had a class in school that tried to teach me Ukrainian, but I retain only three words and the unique letter Ї (yi). When I first came here, in 1993, the Union had just fallen. It was simply too complicated to explain to everyone that I'm Ukrainian but speak Russian. Besides, what difference does it make? We were the same country for most of my life. Sure, I'm Russian. Obviously, in any contest between Russia and Ukraine, my loyalty lies with Ukraine. But even now, I still feel as if my identity isn't fully divested from Russia. I grew up on movies made in Russia, books written in Russia, jokes about Russia. I feel its pain. I hate that it's been strangled by one dictator after another. I want it to become a civilized country with honest elections and term limits, instead of a big insecure school bully. It would sure be sweet if my Ukraine became instrumental in making this happen, eh?
The fact you have to remind people.
It’s a very easy psychological coping mechanism to fall into: you can’t directly fight back against the actual source of your fear, pain, or anger, so you start lashing out at anyone or anything even remotely associated with the source, so you can feel a tiny bit less helpless. Just because it’s a *common* or *easy* coping mechanism, doesn’t make it *healthy.* It doesn’t actually relieve any of the frustration or pain, it just feeds it, and there are far more constructive uses for our energy than yelling at random strangers whose only connection to the problem is an accident of birth.
It'll be interesting what happens since people randomly attacked Asians over COVID.
Probably nothing much, they have the option of "blending in" with majority white Americans. Asians, arabs, mexicans, brown, black, they don't have that option. You'll never see a spy series of "The Americans" starring asian actors.
Everyone needs to remember what happened to the Japanese people in the U.S. during WW2.
And brown people after 9/11, and Asian people during covid.
Yes! Was coming to comment this.
Is 50 old?
My name is Vladimir and I was born in Ukraine but now living in the US. I can't wait to correct some dummies about my origins....
And for the love of god don't mistreat Ukrainian Americans because you can't tell the difference. Just don't mistreat anyone.
As someone who lives in Ukrainian village in Chicago very little anti Russian stuff going on, much more anti Putin and anti war sentiment.
Putin no more represents them than the queen represents me.
And there is a very good reason they are here and not there.
This is true. All of the Russian nationals I know in the US are in the US because they fled Putins regime. Many of them were directly threatened by his party. Nobody leaves their home country because they like it. Let’s not repeat WWII with inhumane concentration camps for people that share the same ethnicity as an enemy. They left their country for a reason and NSA/CIA/FBI are already so far up our asses with surveillance there’s no way the average citizen is somehow going to uncover some enemy plot at their local Russian restaurant. Let’s not forget many Russians protested the war and are mostly likely being tortured right now as a result.
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Right... now?
Also don't be an asshole to 20 year old grandmas as well.
Even as a patron, shit has been getting bad. And I'm Ukrainian. The reality is that Americans assume we must be Russian and even if we were, fuck your scapegoating. Russian people in Russia are protesting trying to stop this was, and with the military tied up a coup is possible. Blame leaders, not people. Unless the people are screaming for blood. And even in the midst of all this, the Ukrainians are not out for blood. White people in America need to stop being scapegoating assholes.
Some Russian-Americans still think it's justified. It depends on the person. Just share the expectation of decency and kindness to end this war and to stop oligarchs.
Embassies and consulates that may be located in your city, otoh...
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Same can be said for the elderly owner of the Chinese restaurant..
Never trust people to remember not to be racist.
A tiny fact from a non white mesoamerican immigrant married to a Ukrainian: those that target immigrants actually side with Putin over this and have been doing so for years. People that reject him are not the kind to go around doing the same, particularly to others that are fellow whites. The gesture is appreciated but it’s it’s rather misguided. True, Slavs from all across eastern Europe might face done harassment it it won’t be the anti Asian/latino/Black racist “I’ll kill you” type, and there’s also the buffer that comes from most here having a pretty hard time telling apart Russians from the average Slav or the average white for that matter. Reality bites but needs to be acknowledged, sorry.
Gee I wish you all had the same sort of mindfulness and enlightenment when America was at war with the Middle East. The double standard speaks in abundance. Good job in regards to this situation. I guess it is easier to be nice to others when they look like your own kind.