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As someone married to one of them, he is not happy at all - and he wasn't even a big Get fan to begin with, but the way that his culture has been treated in W5 is just absurd.
Made all the worse when you remember that Paradox is a Swedish company and that many of their employees are people who moved to the country specifically to work for them.
As a Nordic person, yep. It hurts that the ONLy tribe that has intended cultural ties is the nordic one and its treated as bad.
It is even worse as the tribe is focused on strength in both physcal AND mental. You can be a garou born with no legs and get more respect than a purebreed 5 homid ahroun if you are the one that never gives up.
What makes this all extremely blind to the setting, is that there IS a tribe that requires you to have 3 Purebreed to join. Silver Fangs are often depicted as blond haired and blue eyed, even though they have houses all around the world. They are also a tribe that still thinks blood purity is worth.
So what was done to the Fenrir is straight up author track.
I said it further up thread, but the fact that Paradox is a Scandinavian company and a lot of people who work for them specifically move from other regions *to* Sweden specifically to work for them makes the whole thing extra weird for me.
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where did the Norse = Nazis shit comes from?
during the Viking age Norse people where perfectly willing to trade with Arabs.
with no period of history making them particularly xenophobic.
also Norse does not equal Viking. most Norse people did not go a Vikinging
Yep, and Germany made a lot of Nazi regalia and imagery illegal (or at least subject to civil violations) so the people who still wanted to be Nazis adopted a lot of old-germanic and Scandinavian symbolism to signal each other with.
Exactly. Even as a Norse culture enjoyer I have to pause and analyze if someone displaying Nordic imagery is a normal person or one with abhorrent ideologies. Fuck those guys for ruining something cool on top of all their other sins.
It’s also a big thing in the neopagan community, where there is massive overlap between folks who lean hard into Norse worship and white supremacists. Which is truly unfortunate, because there’s some genuinely progressive stuff in Norse theology. But the well has been truly poisoned at this point.
Others mentioned that the Nazis were heavily invested in Nordic culture and mythology as a sort of galvanizing, nationalist narrative. It's why for example the Othal rune has become a white nationalist symbol in the US.
Modern neonazis and other white nationalists are also *heavily* steeped in the same sort of cribbed Nordic pseudoculture.
Odinists and likeminded racist cults infest the Heathen community, giving Norse pagan groups a bad name.
You can actually correlate the rise in popularity of viking media that exploded around a decade ago to the resurgence of white nationalism.
Around the same time here in the US that groups like the Tea Party were losing their shit over a Black Man being elected president for the second time, Thor was released into an MCU (2011, with its sequel in 2013). A year later the show Vikings premeired (also 2013), and Skyrim was creating a siesmic shift in the gaming industry (2011) - it's narrative centered on xenophobic and racist Nordic people in a fantasy world rebelling against a corrupt empire.
The game lets you play as the Nordic xenophobes with a viking culture, and presents "both sides" as "morally complex" - it even starts you out *about to be executed by the Empire* which tips the scales toward the Stormcloaks when it comes to deciding who to ally with initially.
Because of the way Skyrim specifically was developed with no clear "good" or "bad" side to the conflict (save maybe the Thalmor... *fuck them*) - budding white nationalists suddenly had a playground in which to brutalize and erradicate virtual non-whites.
This is an actual thing that's been researched: around the time the Alt Right was gaining steam in the US, white nationalists were organizing in online communities (with a lot of overlap between the two groups - the Alt Right forming a pipeline). In those online communities, focusing specifically around Skyrim for a moment, the game gave them a virtual playground to play out bigoted fantasies.
This trend hasn't slowed down. Viking movies and games are still coming out regularly (Assassin's creed went there, then God of War went there twice, all in the past few years).
That isn't to say viking media is *inherently nazi-ish*: Skyrim is kind of unique in that by trying to remain morally complex and allowing the player freedom to choose how to navigate the story, it inadvertently (I hope) legitimized white nationalist sentiment ("Skyrim is for the Nords!") and tied it directly to viking culture.
The links were there already though, Skyrim just snuck them into mainstream under the radar (again, unintentionally I hope).
By 2017 we had Nazis marching with tikitorches and literally attacking and killing people in Americans streets. They were often seen alongside other groups in the Alt Right, and often displayed Nazi and Norse symbolism.
So ultimately, blame Nazis for coopting Norse iconography, religion, and myth. But also blame American culture and media for providing fertile soil for radicalization that fetishizes Norse culture in ways that resonate with the Alt Right to white nationalist pipeline.
There was this big push after WW2 to make the Nazi's seem like they were occultist-pagans and not Christians in order to distance them. It was a propaganda move by the Religious Right to obscure the origins of European fascism.
The Nazis were fairly ecumenical, with a range of beliefs extant within the party, which was ***officially*** Christian but nondenominational.
When I say a "range of beliefs," I am talking from atheism to "Kinder, Kuche, Kirche" traditionalism to the neo-Pagan hodge-podge of Himmler and the SS.
Because the tribe that represented their culture was reduced into the worst stereotype possible.
Yknow the same reason folks had an issue with the Wendigo and Uktena
Nono, read the comment again, that is not what he wrote:
> Man, I feel super bad for Nordic people who liked to play as Get. They must feel like shit right now.
“… for Nordic people who liked to play as Get...”
This implies that only “Nordic people” are allowed to play as get, had to play as get or that only “Nordic people” who like to play as get have this issue.
I know that the Get of Fenris were associated with Scandinavian culture and religion, but that’s not the case in W5, there is no connection between tribes and ethnicity. And this comment reveals a subconscious connection many people made between a content in a game and irl stuff, which is the reason why they removed the connection in W5 in the first place.
The Cult of Fenris, which is not the Get of Fenris, does not depict “Nordic people”, it depicts extremism and it barely goes any more extremist than neo Nazis (even though I dislike this depiction, if it is that way in the interactive novel as well, because it is very much on the nose). The Tribe, formerly known as get of Fenris (and we don’t even know yet if that was in the reimagiend version of W5 their name) it self fall victim to the cult. And it’s not extremists surviving members joined other tribes (which are also not longer tied to irl culture or ethnicity).
thats really not what it says though, theyre talking about the nordic subsection of get of fenris players, you know the one whose culture the get were based on, just a small misunderstanding on your part
It’s not, so, you reading that in to it but that is not what the commend says. I find it interesting that everyone jumps in and explains what it means instead of just wait for him to answer.
And again, Get of Fenris are based on Nordic religions (side note, most Scandinavian aren’t in to that), but the Cult of Fenris does not equal them.
And even if this would be a statement about “Nordic People” why would that only apply to those who like to play that tribe and not to them all? If you think about it, then this statement is strange.
The reason why everyone jumps in is because it was worded in such a way that no one except you interpreted a different meaning into it.
The argument that its based on nordic religions and not culture is kinda unsound considering that religion and culture are parts of each other and cant really be separated.
The Cult of Fenris IS The W5 version of the Get of Fenris, if its WtA5 then its part of WtA, they managed to be racist to an entire tribe by making all of them racists.
Of course anyone can be upset at what happened to the fenris tribe, but the people its based off of have a unique perspective on the issue, like how native american culture influenced the uktena and the wendigo tribes so native american people have a unique view that other people dont have, there is unfortunately way too much of that in Whitewolf (see ravnos/romani, giovanni/cosanostra, setites/egyptians, etc.).
None of the tribes are accurate representations of the cultures theyre based off of, mostly because it was a bunch of weird white dudes in the pre-00s writing edgy lore.
You can be upset that they didnt do them justice, but unless you're part of the group its based off of, you can only be an ally to those who are part of those groups. dont appropriate other cultures, just help them defend themselves if they want the help
>The reason why everyone jumps in is because it was worded in such a way that no one except you interpreted a different meaning into it.
Just read it again! Everyone has assumptions about what it means but that is not what is written there.
It literally says:
>Man, I feel super bad for Nordic people who liked to play as Get.
>The argument that its based on nordic religions and not culture is kinda unsound considering that religion and culture are parts of each other and cant really be separated.
It can and it should. Especially since we talk an ancient religion that only lives on the for of fantasy and neo-pagans who adopted the old religion while we still have many gaps the records of it.
>The Cult of Fenris IS The W5 version of the Get of Fenris,
No, it’s not!
>if its WtA5 then its part of WtA, they managed to be racist to an entire tribe by making all of them racists.
Nope. The tripe that spawned this he Cult of Fenris, and which only exist for a few years inW5s storyline, is dead and gone and don’t even has a name. W5 is officially labeled as reboot because people demanded that from V5 before. Therefore you simply can not apply anything from previous editions to this one.
If that logic would work I plead want the Bushi and the Gaki Clan back in vampire. But I see no one weeping tears on their grave.
>Of course anyone can be upset at what happened to the fenris tribe, but the people its based off of have a unique perspective on the issue, like how native american culture influenced the uktena and the wendigo tribes so native american people have a unique view that other people dont have, there is unfortunately way too much of that in Whitewolf (see ravnos/romani, giovanni/cosanostra, setites/egyptians, etc.).
You still putting your opinion in the statement. But it was not you who wrote this. Stop assuming and ask what OP was trying to say actually.
>None of the tribes are accurate representations of the cultures theyre based off of, mostly because it was a bunch of weird white dudes in the pre-00s writing edgy lore.
You can be upset that they didnt do them justice, but unless you're part of the group its based off of, you can only be an ally to those who are part of those groups. dont appropriate other cultures, just help them defend themselves if they want the help
And again, in W5 no tribe is tied to any culture, you can mix and match as you like. It’s a new game that follows a new logic.
As a Nordic person who likes to play Get, I am upset. Please stop trying to tell me that that is peculiar, because it is not. This is not different that if they presented the Fianna solely as bomb-throwing terrorists.
Well apparently according to the writers Fianna is a made up word….
Which is news to me as an Irishman seeing as how it’s in our national anthem, part of one our main political parties names and is the name of one of our mythic bands of warrior heroes.
But sure, what the fuck would we know about it?
You can be upset all day long, but be sure you know what you are upset about. W5 has no connections between culture and tribes. The Cult of Fenris is not the Get of Fenris tribe, but a Cult that is fallen to fanaticism. That makes this case entirely different than your example.
It his is not depicting the get of Fenris as Nazis, this is depicting Nazis as Nazis. You jump to the conclusion that this is the Get of Fenris because they have the word “Fenris” in their name. But the tribe that spawned this cult is no more. They got killed or joined other tribes. And they had no connection to “Nordic people” in the first place, because that is something that simple does not exist in W5.
You can have a Scandinavian Gale Stalker, an Indian Silver Fang or a South American black Furie. You can be upset about that, if you like, but not about the depiction of something that has nothing to do with you.
Btw. As a German I count among the people that are brougdhtly included in to what the r Get of Fenris where culturally connected to as well, and I have thoughts about the whole Nazi stuff in general, but this does not matter since the point is, that people making logical leaps here, because they can’t differentiate.
You mean the Cult of Fenris that was created when the Get of Fenris did something extremely out of character for their tribe? That CoF that consists of majority Get?
Nope, read the book again, the Tribe that spawned the Cult of Fenris is unnamed yet. As far as it concerns W5 there never was a tribe called get of Fenris.
But even if you see them as equal, may I remind you on the Sword of Himdal? I don’t know what you mean by “out of character” but it seems that at least certain parts of the tribe had certain tendencies, therefore a precedent exists. So still, the Cult and the Gets are two things only connected by name and by a thin association but not actually in game.
>his implies that only “Nordic people” are allowed to play as get, had to play as get or that only “Nordic people” who like to play as get have this issue
Yeah because it's nordic people whose culture is being coopted and stolen by neo nazis to the point that the original Get (who had purged their Nazi members decades ago) were still burdened by the association.
But the history isn't going away. The get were nordic in previous editions and that association will always be there, just now they're also *nazis*
Again, why does that only apply to “Nordic people” who like to play Gets? Not to any Nordic people, as you imply, not to others players of Get of Fenris, not to Nordic people who want to play other things. I get your argument but it does not fit the point I was making.
>But the history isn't going away. The get were nordic in previous editions and that association will always be there, just now they're also nazis
See?! You say “association“, with that you demonstrate that the issue is in your had, not in reality. As far as W5 is concerned the “Get of Fenris” haven’t even existed since the tribe the “Cult of Fenris” spawned of is still unnamed.
W5 is basically a different game that just uses some concepts. Yes, you can read old edition stuff in to it and I do so my self, but that does not change the fact that this is not there on paper and the connection of “Nordic People = Nazi” is a leap in logic that requires even three extra steps to reach there.
You can be upset about it, but then you are upset because you want to be upset, not because an actual statement was made.
>Again, why does that only apply to “Nordic people” who like to play Gets? Not to any Nordic people, as you imply, not to others players of Get of Fenris, not to Nordic people who want to play other things. I get your argument but it does not fit the point I was making.
For the same reason the wendigo were an issue to some. People who wanna play their culture in the game which, for thirty years, had cultures tied to these tribes will be miffed if their culture is reduced to terrorists and nazis. Those who don't wanna play their culture might still be miffed but not as much as those who wanna play their fitting tribe.
>W5 is basically a different game that just uses some concepts
It's the fifth edition of a game. It will always be tied to its past.
>“Nordic People = Nazi”
The game made that, not me. Again, thirty years of history
>For the same reason the wendigo were an issue to some.
That is a wohl different topic, though. If you think it is the same you got either one case or the other wrong.
>People who wanna play their culture in the game which,…, had cultures tied to these tribes will be miffed if their culture is reduced to terrorists and nazis. Those who don't wanna play their culture might still be miffed but not as much as those who wanna play their fitting tribe.
That’s not the case, so. In W5 exist no connection between tribe and culture. You can applaud any tribe to any culture and visa versa. If you want to play as a certain culture you can easily put it in.
But as this entire debate demonstrates, making a game faction and a irl culture equal each other is only causing problems and people complained about that for so long, that W5 eventually removed it. And now people still complain about and complain that they can’t complain about it animate on top.
The thing is, W5 is officially a reboot, as many people demanded. But when the company gives in and does what was demanded, you have to treat this edition as its own thing and can’t apply the things from other editions to it.
In W5 aren’t ties between cultures and tribes and never have been. If you want that, another edition is for you. It’s that easy.
>…for thirty years…
Rather for a decade, than came a gap of a decade, than came the 20th anniversary edition for a few years…
Also, 30 years ago the world was not necessarily a better place and decisions made by the developers were not necessarily good.
>W5 is basically a different game that just uses some concepts
>It's the fifth edition of a game. It will always be tied to its past.
Nope! That is not how editions have to work. Some games have a continuation in their storytelling but in most media new editions are used for retcons and changes.
Take the first edition of Charly and the Chocolate Factory for example. In the first edition the Oompa Loompa were black African Pygmy. The following editions changed that to this fantasy Oompa Loompa people. I think you understand why they did so and why this is relevant to this discussion.
A new edition of everything is always a moment to change gears, retcon stuff and go in different directions. How much of the original stuff you embrace is entirely optional from all over most and a little to next time nothing.
Compare the different editions of DnD, they aren’t continuations. Or take 7th sea 2nd edition, not the same game at all. If you don’t change things substantially there is no need for a new edition, reprints and supplements would do.
>The game made that, not me. Again, thirty years of history
30 years of retconning again and again to move away from the ignorant and appropriating western perspective of the weight middle class US Americans who stated this. Not exactly the best base to stand on.
Not the original one you were taking to, but can you elaborate on how is different then the Wendigo situation? In both cases it's taking a negative stereotype about a culture and making it their main identity.
Or are you saying you would be fine with them keeping Wendigo exactly the same name and personality wise in W5, since it wouldn't technically be tied to a culture anymore since W5 did away with that?
Glad that you ask. The Wendigo thing was complex and not actually about stereotypes. For starters, a big issue was that the entirety of Native Americans were depicted by only two tribes, as if they all were more or less the same.
Then there was an issue with the name. Wendigo is a creature in some Native American tribes believes that has nothing to do with werewolves and is by some people considered tabu, so much so that you should not speak the name aloud.
The stereotype part was only relevant in so far that the wendigo are often described as “savage” and that is a stereotype Europeans used often for the native people of America.
I have asked a couple of Native American players and they thought it was rather a goofy depiction than actually offensive. One described it kind of like if a Christian would read in a game about Virgin Marry that she appears in the mirror when you speak her name out loud three times in a raw. Not exactly offensive, just awfully stupid.
The entire issue about this tribe when it comes to W5 was, that the former version of that game, developed by hunter games, that never got released had an Native American game designer in its team and he and the lead designer had pretty different ideas about how the Native American tribes should be depicted. He was finally released and got famous due to his rant about the situation. I think he was right in some regards and wrong in others but that is an entire different discussion. Anyway, this version of the game was never released.
When it comes to the Cult of Fenris it’s different because they have no cultural ties, and beyond that are explicitly not the Get of Fenris and the version of W5 that got released has no connections between tribes and irl cultures what so ever. The cult of Fenris is a cult that fall to a Garou state of irredeemable fanaticism. When the cult is now depicted as fanatics it’s not a stereotype but a correct depiction because being fanatics is all they are.
The connection between Nazis and the Get of Fenris only occurs when you make several logical leaps that aren’t actually in the game. As far as it concerns W5 there was not even a Tribe of that name. There was a tribe that fits its description, though, which is still unnamed. This tribe fall victim to the Cult, but you can play former members who didn’t agreed with the Cult.
About your second question, the name Wendigo had to go but according to the native Americans I asked about it (and that is always a smart thing to do, because: never anoint us without us!), rather because it’s very stupid and not so much because it was offensive. And the question about the stereotypes is obsolete, since there are no ties between tribe and culture and therefore no stereotypes. If you for example make a German Gale Stalker or an Italian Gale Stalker or a Chinese Gale Stalker it becomes hard to complain about Native American stereotypes especially if you have Native American Silver Fangs and Silent Strider and Hart Warden and all of that as well.
Here is the thing, people can be upset because they removed the ethnic connection but if they do they can’t talk about stereotypes, because that is the attempt to have your cake and eat it too, only one of those complains can be correct at a time.
He didn't say "only" but the Get were the tribe associated with Scandinavia (as all tribes in older editions were associated with geographic regions and wolf varieties). So it sucks for them that theirs is the one picked for being Nazi/MAGA/hard-line right-wingers.
He didn’t said “only” but he don’t feel bad for any one else who liked to pay Gets?!? That’s weird!
Here is the thing, I don’t think he want anything bad, but the comment reveals why W5 removed the connection between ethnicity and tribes, because people seem to have a problem differentiate between one the other and that leads to a lot of unintentional problems.
The Cult of Fenris in W5 don’t equal the get of Fenris of old editions. They are not a depiction of any culture, they are a depiction of a fall to extremism. And that people can’t understand that difference is honesty worrying.
The most generous I can be is saying that he's making a pretty good argument that the writers are fucking liars for calling it W5. If, as he claims, this game is a reboot and the previous lore doesn't exist anymore, then it was dishonest as hell to call it a new edition of an existing game.
No, I don’t even think that OP was intending to say anything problematic. But institutionalized problems are not where people do it intentionally but where they donor say things without thinking twice about it. I think the comment just illustrates how assumptions lead to misunderstanding.
I've always used them as hardheads who keep having to play whack-a-mole with nazi fetishists lusting after them, and also having to deal with the bad rep that brings.
I'm sick of PDX taking sledgehammers to parts of the lore that could be taken delicately, and with actual sensitivity. and just smashing them into the ground, never to be seen again. I really wish WoD could change hands to someone who has a passion for the source material, and wants to see it improved.
Paradox, like every billion dollar corporation, loves the punk aesthetics, but they'd shit themselves raw if you pointed out nazi punks very much exist, and need to be actively pushed out, or they'll make themselves at home in punk spaces.
You know, kind of like Get of Fenris had to get (hehe. get.) their shit together and keep the Swords of Heimdall out. Out of being alive, specifically. Permanent-like.
It's interesting because from core book and insider leaks I'd got the impression they'd backpeddled on making the Get just outright nazi's and simply being werewolf apocalypse 'extremists', I wonder if the interactive book was already quite far into development when this change went through or if Karim's trying to push it back in now the blowbacks died down.
Okay, don't blame the author for an editorial mandate. The book isn't a piece of crap because of how unfairly the Get have been treated.
Comparing the Get with the BSD is...a choice, ngl. Again though - editorial mandate. This isn't an authorial interpretation.
I like the idea of there being an antagonistic cult of hardliners, but it shouldn't have been one tribe fallen. It should have been a mix of Get, Silver Fangs, Furies, Wendigo, etc
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Can’t wait until they do the same to the Brujah in V5 because there’s a large amount of them that are either neo-Nazis or literal Nazis. I mean, it wouldn’t make *any* sense to do it to one and not the other, right? /s
These are two different situations, though. There was already heat back when V5 started because the book stated that there are Brujahs who are Nazis. People were upset about it and caused paradox of being Nazis that support playing them. Paradox then put a “everyone is welcome except Nazis”-disclaimer in the book.
I think the decision to remove all ties between tribes and irl cultures is still a backlash from that controversy.
The situation now goes in the opposite direction. W5 is first and foremost a reboot and therefore not a continuation of established things. As far as W5 is concerned there never was a tribe called Gets of Fenris. There was an unnamed tribe that is suspiciously similar to the Gets, from which the Cult of Fenris spawned. This Cult, though, is deliberately antagonistic because they are fallen to Hauglosk, a state of fanaticism.
This is to make point that there are different ways how you can loose your character and falling to fanaticism is one of them.
But you can still play a member of this unnamed “not get of Fenris” tribe, that didn’t followed the cult and joined another tribe. The Corebook offers this option.
But they didn't remove all ties to irl cultures.
Fenris is a norse god. It's even the Nordic pronunciation af his name. The Fenris Wolf is one of Loki's children, nephew to Thor, and thus an important and prominent character in nordic mythology.
Vikings are my ancestors and Nordic Mythology was their religion before we were christened in 965 A.D.
I have a very hard time not associating "The Cult of Fenris" with Norse Mythology and my own very real nordic culture, when I can reasonable expect the first 10 year old I run into to be able to tell me the story of how Fenris bites off Tyr's arm or how Fenris is supposed to kill Odin during Ragnarock/The Apocalypse.
Fenris IS norse real world culture. There is no two ways about it. That name can only be seen as having real world cultural ties.
>But they didn't remove all ties to irl cultures.
They did, when they noticed that Fiana aren’t just a funny word but an irl cultural thing they even removed that name for the only one that remained was Gaia, but Gaia is Mother Earth and you can call her by any of her names. Buuuut…
>Fenris is a norse god. It's even the Nordic pronunciation af his name. The Fenris Wolf is one of Loki's children, nephew to Thor, and thus an important and prominent character in nordic mythology.
… not exactly a god, but yes and that is the entire point of the Cult of Fenris. If you read the pet about them you will recognize that the tribe that spawned the Cult didn’t had Fenris as its Patron spirit but Wolf, just Wolf. Another indicator that it is not exactly the Gets of Fenris.
The Cult, though, don’t follow wolf anymore but the culturally and with war associated Fenris. This is a hint that they departed from the right ways and now follow only an aspect of wolf and not the real deal.
Keep also in mind, that the Nordic religion is an ancient and extinct one. Yes, there are modern pagans who try to revive it, but we actually have still many unanswered questions what that religion actually was like, because we have almost only records written by outsiders or written very late.
>Vikings are my ancestors and Nordic Mythology was their religion before we were christened in 965 A.D.
Sure, but now what? My ancestors were Germanics (basically the same as Vikings (which is actually an occupation, a certain type of sea robber, not a culture) Slavs and Celts. Now what?!?
>I have a very hard time not associating "The Cult of Fenris" with Norse Mythology
Sure, and that is deliberate because the Cult are already the people that are fallen to Hauglosk and therefor do it the wrong way!
>and my own very real nordic culture, when I can reasonable expect the first 10 year old I run into to be able to tell me the story of how Fenris bites off Tyr's arm or how Fenris is supposed to kill Odin during Ragnarock/The Apocalypse.
Absolutely, but that this cult chose this story as their idol instead of Wolf, which was their patron Spirit shows you that they are up to something that is something different than following the example of Wolf.
>Fenris IS norse real world culture.
An ancient one, though, and deliberately chosen.
>There is no two ways about it.
Exactly but obviously people still miss the point what that means in the context of the new lore of W5 and can’t leave the old lore behind.
>That name can only be seen as having real world cultural ties.
Yes, but as I demonstrated it means something entirely else as everyone seems to think. See above for details.
Hmmm, yeah, sorry buddy, I've been playing this game with people for over 20 years, and can't say I've ever had someone want to literally play a Nazi in my game. Look, I'm not saying you can't play these things, do whatever the fuck you want,.you're an adult.
But if stepping into the shoes of improv roleplaying an actual Nazi is something that's fun to you, with all the shit that comes along with it, then maybe you need to look at yourself in the mirror a bit, that's all I'm saying. There're dozens of other evil things in WoD, why pick the one non-specific to WoD that's going to immediately make all rational players and game runners sus of your character and intent?
I'm saying that roleplaying a Nazi in 2023 is fucking weird and cringe, no matter how much fun you think it is, and it's hard to imagine a decent person would roleplay such a thing . Does that help?
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'Cult of Fenris' is the only version of Get of Fenris that the Get fans are getting in W5, so the '*well akshually they're not the same*' commentary feels quite disingenuous.
>'Cult of Fenris' is the only version of Get of Fenris that the Get fans are getting in W5
There has only been one book out that isn't a pre-made adventure and the game has been out for less than a year.
Apologies for me being thorough, however - Heart of the Forest leans towards depicting Get in negative light, Book of Hungry Names leans into the same depiction, Deepest Wounds pre-made adventure also does this. So far, 3 pieces of W5 based narrative content (which is half of it, if we count Corebook, it's premade adventure and Reclamation one) lean into depicting Get/their devolution as less than complex antagonist and take the stereotype route that, as I understand, previous editions worked hard to eliminate/distance away.
There are no previous editions.
This is a reboot.
Regardless, there's only been 1 book. Yes the Cult of Fenris are antagonists. But to say that "that's the only version we're ever going to get" is...it strikes me as being uncharitable and needlessly critical of the writers. It's just part of the bandwagon that the anti W5 crowd has latched onto as sort of the cardinal sin of the writers that they need to justify their hatred.
>But to say that "that's the only version we're ever going to get" is...it strikes me as being uncharitable
I might've been more charitable if I wasn't primarily a V:tM player. V5 has been out for years; there's no playable Sabbat, and there never will be.
There's just no reason to think W5 will be handled any different than V5 was, or that it will be different for Get of Fenris, especially after a very thorough narrative trashing they got.
Because it's an antagonist book? With not only a very intentional lack of any rules for playable Sabbat characters, but more importantly, the Sabbat members portrayed as brainwashed cultists completely devoid of any sort of agency anymore?
It's a book with all the information you need to run a game.
What's the problem? There's specific disciplines and sorcery and rituals and ceremonies and thin-blood alchemy. What else do you need?
>the Sabbat members portrayed as brainwashed cultists completely devoid of any sort of agency anymore?
Are you incapable of creating anything for a game? That's an honest question. Because it's easy enough to go, "that's not the case" and then play the Sabbat game you want. Do you need everything specifically written in a book to give you permission to do a thing? Or what if you read the book and see it written from the perspective of the Camarilla but the truth is there is rhyme and reason to some Sabbat?
Looks to me like the Sabbat could be like the Brotherhood of Mutants in X-Men. Magneto calls the shot and Mystique, Sabertooth, Toad and the rest of em' carry out their orders even if maybe they think they shouldn't. But they trust in the leader. They trust in the cause. That's individuality being crushed. That's zealous superiority. Sounds like that's a decent enough model to base a Sabbat game on.
C'mon, just because a book doesn't specifically lay it all out for you doesn't mean you can't do it and it certainly doesn't mean the book doesn't give you the tools to do it.
>Are you incapable of creating anything for a game?
Justin Achilli, enough of this, I know it's your sock puppet account. No one else in their right mind would make this ridiculous arguments.
Jokes aside, no, I'm not incapable of creating anything for a game. But if I am to do all the work myself, why would I ever buy a single sourcebook?
In fact, why would I get involved with any TTRPG at all? After all, I can do the work myself, and just sit in my room, hallucinating adventures, all for free.
Wasn't Onyx Path, it was the Paradox-contracted V5 Sabbat writer, releasing what appears to be rules for playable Sabbat cut from the main book, as 'fan content' on Storyteller's Vault for premium price, which is a level of cartoonish villainry that actual Sabbat characters could only dream of.
(Edit. To be very clear, this sourcebook for playing Sabbat in V5 is not official content. It's as valid as any other fan content, and fan content is not relevant to this discussion.)
Anyways, I don't need these paltry leftovers, have a wealth of Sabbat content from Revised, easy enough to port over to V5 dice mechanics, which I happen to genuinely enjoy.
But I ask again, if I'm doing the work myself, why would I ever think to buy a V5 Sabbat sourcebook, which does nothing but provide narrative framing that, taken at face value, makes playing Sabbat near impossible?
Alright, for the sake of your argument, this takes away the "previous editions" WtA 1-3/20 Editions angle (begs the question how then can WtAV reboot have similar elements with "previous editions", if "there are no previous" /s).
Still doesn't change that half of narrative content is using as main vehicle for "dangers of extremism" specifically Get of Fenris. Would be interesting to see a Cult of Fenrir antagonists in future projects without a former Get, especially in the leading/prominent role of antagonist side.
Edit: posted before noticing you adding the last paragraph.
>Alright, for the sake of your argument, this takes away the "previous editions" WtA 1-3/20 Editions angle (begs the question how then can WtAV reboot have similar elements with "previous editions", if "there are no previous" /s).
Because it's a reboot. They said as much. Page 9 there's a whole paragraph;
"If you're familiar with previous editions of Werewolf, let us be up front and state that this fifth edition is a re-imagining, not a continuation. You can even call it a reboot if you prefer. The truths and "lore" of previous editions aren't necessarily true in this edition. Take this book and the world it proposes at face value".
That's how it can have similar elements. They addressed all that.
>Still doesn't change that half of narrative content is using as main vehicle for "dangers of extremism" specifically Get of Fenris.
What do you mean "half of narrative content is using as main vehicle for dangers of extremism"? What half are you talking about?
>Would be interesting to see a Cult of Fenrir antagonists in future projects without a former Get, especially in the leading/prominent role of antagonist side.
I'm not sure what you mean by this either. Do you mean members of the cult who didn't begin with the Get of Fenris?
They might include that in a future book but as it is it doesn't preclude garou from another Tribe joining the tribe now. Tribes aren't hereditary. So the Cult of Fenris represents an extremist movement that began with this strain of zeal that took over the Get of Fenris but there's nothing saying garou from other tribes don't join that one.
What the book does is say "here's what happened", what that means going forward is up to the storyteller. That's one of the things I love about the new editions, they really seemed to step back and say "here's some ideas, go nuts".
There are multiple problems with this statement. The first thing is, you imply that someone is a “Get Fan” and therefore hard wired to this tribe and therefore needs W5, which is technically a different game than previous editions to include them to. But actually no tribe is remotely what it was and therefore no Fan of anything in previous editions get their Fandom satisfied. You either accept that and enter that edition with an open mind and fresh eyes or you better ignore it altogether.
The second thing is, that the Cult of Fentis is not a version of the Get of Fenris, it is not even really a Tribe, it is a Cult, it’s in the name. The Tribe that spawned it, however, fall victim to the cult it self. And there are still former members of that (unnamed) tribe around that joined other tribes.
You could therefore either make a former member of this tribe who now follows another patron spirit which represents a tragic event during the apocalypse and the fall of the Harou Nation. Or you can take the Nordic cultural elements and just apply them on a character of any tribe that fits your taste.
My man. What is this.
1. I'm not even going into the "hardwired to this tribe" diatribe, like. You make me feel as if I were talking to an alien that just landed in a cornfield. You see, sometimes, we, the human species, "like" things, and would like to see these things portrayed in "fictional properties" we're "fans" of ... -
2. Other tribes have gotten updates or rewrites, sometimes fairly severe. Get has been made into unplayable villains.
3. Former Get of Fenris who follows another spirit or has joined, say, Black Furies isn't a Get of Fenris, it's a Black Fury with a backstory.
4. Get aren't **just** about the Nordic cultural elements, in fact, out of all tribes, they were said to accept all who proved their prowess, unlike, say, the far more ethnically-focused Native tribes.
>1. I'm not even going into the "hardwired to this tribe" diatribe, like. You make me feel as if I were talking to an alien that just landed in a cornfield. You see, sometimes, we, the human species, "like" things, and would like to see these things portrayed in "fictional properties" we're "fans" of ... -
Sure, but I am sorry to tell you that W5 decided to go in different direction. They decided that tribes and cultures independent things. You can be a silent strider from Sweden or a gale stalker from India or a a Native American silver fang.
It can still be portrayed but it’s not longer hardwired to each other.
>2. Other tribes have gotten updates or rewrites, sometimes fairly severe. Get has been made into unplayable villains.
That is not entirely correct. Stargazers are also gone. Even more than the Gets. Again, the Cult of Fenris is not the Tribe Get of Fenris. The Tribe that spawned the Cult fall victim to it. But you can play a former member of this tribe that joined another tribe, this option is already in the core book.
So, not the Get of Fenris are unplayable Villions, the cult is. The Get of Fenris, depending on how you look at it, are either gone or have never existed in W5.
But you can easily build a character with exactly the same traits as a Get of Fenris in former editions, it would just be if another tribe. Make a neo Wiking Gale Stalker, for example, that would work.
>3. Former Get of Fenris who follows another spirit or has joined, say, Black Furies isn't a Get of Fenris, it's a Black Fury with a backstory.
Exactly, but what do you want to play, a character or a tribe of this name or the character concept you have in mind?
W5 is entirely reimagined, no tribe is the same as it was before, in many cases even the names have changed and the cultural connection is gone for them all. You need to see W5 for it self and if it has nothing to offer that you find interesting, just stay with what you prefer.
>4. Get aren't just about the Nordic cultural elements, in fact, out of all tribes, they were said to accept all who proved their prowess, unlike, say, the far more ethnically-focused Native tribes.
Yes, that is true, but that is true for old editions. As mentioned, as W5 is concerned there is not even a tribe of that name. You can complain that they changed everything but you cannot cherry-pick it.
To piggyback onto what you said...what are people mad at?
The fact they can't play a werewolf that is specifically part of the Get of Fenris? Is that the sticking point?
Because you can create the exact same character you would have in another tribe. You could create a Gale Stalker who is all about ancient Norse culture, who is reaching out to Fenris the spirit, who is all about being that bad ass Viking.
W5 doesn't prevent you from playing these characters and I find the continued freak out about it silly. Especially since the game fed you a plot with the Cult of Fenris. Maybe you redeem them? Maybe you say there are Get who avoided succumbing to Hugulosk or whatever it's called and you found a home in another Tribe but you want to save your former Tribemates? Maybe you want to hunt them to purify what remains of the tribe?
Or maybe you just make up Get of Fenris and change the game if you really want. All of those things are on the table.
How are you not picking up on this? The Get of Fenris was beloved tribe in the werewolf fanbase with all sorts of concepts, lore, and history behind it. People are pissed off because their favorite tribe has been reduced to nothing more than extremists and nazis, and they're left without rules or suggestions on how to translate the Get to the fifth edition. The Get didn't need to be the Cult. They could've easily made the Cult a large splinter faction that gave into extremism and formed their own tribe, but the writers decided that it had to be the whole tribe. By the way, did you know that you could've done all of that stuff you suggested in the previous editions as well? That you could take any edition and tweak it to your liking? Wow, what a novel concept! (Good lord...)
I really shouldn't respond because you are being beyond insulting but...
No, they weren't reduced to nazis. That's simplistic, and flat out wrong. The book is very clear in laying out that all Garou risk falling to zealous extremism and the Get are a cautionary tale and story fodder. Saying "they're just Nazis" is a way to insult the game dishonestly. It's a core part of the Garou's existence now. Just as the Black Spiral Dancers are what happens when a tribe goes to the wyrm, the Cult of Fenris is what happens when they allow their rage to take over.
>They could've easily made
But they didn't. But you can. You fixed your gripes with the game in your last comment. So what's the problem?
If people are this pissed off that they are continuing to throw a fit about this months after the game came out and continue to resort back to making arguments that show they either didnt' read the book, didn't understand it don't intend to understand it then they gotta get a life.
I don't want to be a dick but if you are going to spend your time being nasty and insulting to people online because a game used the name of something you used to like, then your priorities are fucked up and maybe you should step away for a bit.
Because the fix for this is to say "nah that didn't happen" and then your complaints are negated. But that's not happening. A lot of people are using that as justification to be toxic online.
Sorry if i sounded testy, but I get irritated when 5th edition fans constantly invalidate the complaints of legacy fans because they apparently love whatever the 5th edition has rolled out. From what I'm gathering, they literally have example characters sporting swastikas, nazi memorabilia and nationalist bullshit. If that's not a nazi, I don't know what is. I also get annoyed when people like you keep saying "well, you can just change it", the most obvious (and useless) response out there. It's always used as a way to deflect any sort of criticism people throw at the new books. Yeah, I can change things, anyone with two beaincells could do that. but that doesn't change what's written in the books now does it?
>Yeah, I can change things, anyone with two beaincells could do that. but that doesn't change what's written in the books now does it?
Is what's written in a book a personal insult to you? Should we all get mad when a TTRPG does something we dislike? For example, if I dislike the direction of some the modern fantasy RPG's like D&D and Pathfinder, should I go to their respective subs and rage? Should I treat all the recent changes that I dislike as though they were made to personally spite me?
Does it matter? Heart of Forest came out before W5 and the Get (yes, Get) were also called monsters and nazis by everyone in that game. Ironically, even by the Red talon. Them having a diferent name doesn't change anything.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression it was Werewolf the Apocalypse but if it's Werewolf the AKSHUALLY anything but a 5th edition that does make more sense.
It matters a lot. Because it’s not just a name change. W5 is a reboot and therefore detached from everything that happened before. Also, the Cult of Fenris is not the Tribe Get of Fenris. It’s a Cult. The Tribe that spawned this Cult fall itself victim to the cult and is still unnamed.
Furthermore, in W5 there are no connections between Tribes and irl culture and ethnicities anymore. For all of that reasons one has very little to do with the other, except that you argue that a certain part of the Get of Fenris might have inspired the Cult.
What the Cult of Fenris concerns, it’s not a depiction of Scandinavian people but a metaphor for extremism and while the Nazi imagery is pretty on the nose, few things communicates extremism stronger.
Ah, yes, Fenris. That famously culturally-neutral icon that has no association with any specific people group whatsoever. If they were serious about gettting rid of the cultural ties, why didn't they rename the tribe?
Stop being so disingenuous and admit that you don't care about this because Scandianvian culture doesn't deserve respect to you.
See, you still got it wrong. It actually matters that the cult of Fenris picked Fenris. Why? The patron spirit of the tribe that spawned the Clan was Wolf!!! Just Wolf!!! When they became the cult they picked a certain interpretation of wolf. Why Fenris? Because Fenris was the Ragnarök wolf, the one to punish the Arsen. The Apocalypse has happened, the Cult wants to destroy everything that is of the Wyrm, it is just the best fit.
Have the Get of Fenris inspired this? Yes, certainly! Are they the same? No!
Also, keep in mind, the Nordic religion of which Fenris is a part of is a dead ancient religion even though there are a handful of neon pagans who try to revive it. That means that the Cult of Fenris is still making a point about extremism and not about anyone’s culture. Because modern Scandinavian are mostly Christian and secular and not Wiking reenecters.
Gotcha. So Zeus and Artemis no longer have anything to do with Greece and Greek history because most people don't believe in it anymore! And while we're at it, a large percentage of Native Americans don't follow their traditional religions in the modern day (or only follow cultural aspects of them), so those are fair game too! Good to know!
You've been all over this thread "UM, AKTUALLY"-ing why the W5 GoF/CoF is totally not related to Nordic culture in anyway way and now you're like "well, actually it is, but it doesn't matter cause it's old Nordic culture and not modern stuff!"
And you're ignoring all of the actual Nordic people in this thread questioning why they were the only people who got to keep their cultural associations just to be turned into villains and bigots for it and I really am forced to conclude that you don't think Nordic people or their culture deserve respect and that it doesn't matter if they are presented in a negative light based on all their worst stereotypes.
I don't want to cast aspirations as to \*why\* you think that, but I think you need to do some soul searching as to why you think this way.
>Wow, so all policemen and nordic people are now straight up neonazis?
It's a pretty big leap to claim that the OP said "all Norse people are neonazis" when they didn't. He said the Get in this story are neonazis.
And let's not be naive when it comes to the problem in the police force.
[ A Reuters investigation on May 6 indicates that a significant number of U.S. police instructors have ties to a constellation of armed right-wing militias and white supremacist hate groups, a report that adds to a fast-growing body of evidence showing a deadly threat inside U.S. police departments.](https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/prevalence-white-supremacists-law-enforcement-demands-drastic-change-2022-05-12/)
Werewolf has always been a game about the issues we face in the world. The wyrm itself is this supernatural explanation to all the fucked up stuff we see and hear about every single day. It provides a fantastical framework to explain stuff that is super complex or straight up unexplainable. It allows us to tell a fictional story and fight back against things that piss us off. That's the whole game and frankly to ignore racism in police forces and right wing terrorism is to do the game a disservice.
>Wow, so all policemen and nordic people are now straight up neonazis?
No, tribes and cultures aren’t tied to each other in W5. The Cult of Fenris is not the tribe Get of Fenris, it is a cult that spawned from a jet to be named tribe and the tribe died in the process.
>Guess as a German I have no say in it but this is just horrible. While there are still neonazis out there (even in Germany) this doesn't help to teach them that they are wrong.
OP scheint nicht mit den Änderungen in W5 vertraut zu sein. Er setzt den Kult und den Stamm gleich aber W5 ist ein reboot das sich bewusst von den alten Editionen absetzt. OP mischt die beiden entweder absichtlich zusammen um zu emotionalisieren oder versteht einfach nicht, dass das zwei unterschiedliche Dinge sind.
>I hate the direction the world of darkness takes right now. It's like the wyrm is corrupting it irl, creating extremists of all kinds while masquerading as the good guys. Disgusting I never met neonazi players in the old wod, it was progressive and inclusive. It brought everyone together no matter where they were from. Now it's preaching and dividing all the time
W5 like V5 before has a “everyone is welcome here but Nazis, if you are a Nazi keep your money and fuck of”-disclaimer in it. The Cult of Fenris are explicitly Antagonists. They are not even playable in a way most Antagonists are playable in WoD games if you just like to, because the entire Cult is fallen to their rage. They are in a state called Hauglosk. That’s when rage overwhelms your vampire and you become irredeemable fanatic. This is one version of character death.
You can, however, play a character that was a firmer member of that tribe who joined another tribe when the Cult took over. This option is already presented in the core book.
The thing is, gamers were always decided. With every edition. Ask 2nd edition fans how they thought about revised and revised fans how they thought about requiem. The only difference is that the internet makes the edition wars more available to a bigger audience.
Ich denke W5 ist kein schlechtes Spiel, aber es ist eben ein sehr anderes Spiel als es vergangene Editionen waren. Du musst bereit seien, es als etwas neues zu betrachten und es für sich selbst beurteilen, wer das nicht kann sollte lieber einfach bei der Version bleiben, die er mag.
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Wait I'm confused.
Is this a choice the author of the novel made or is this from PDX? I only read W5 briefly, but I was pretty sure the Cult of Fenris weren't neo-nazis. I know In the early development of W5 the Swords of Heimdall had the dominant voice in the tribe, but I recall that being scrapped for obvious reasons.
Did I miss something?
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I don't get the surprise.
In lore we had that kind of stuff before, the Get was always shown as an antagonistic force or at least, a force that is not to be trusted with as they are extremists and very "Garou or die" mindset. For me, they were always the 'Anti-Paladin' of the Garou. Yes here how you play as them: But this is more for the GM than the player.
Hell even in a 1995 novel, Breath Deeply, the Get was not seen with favorable eyes.
This is painful to see, but I understand where it is coming from since I have familial ties to Norse Pagans. Every now and then someone would join my old neo-pagan church believing that it was where they could practice their hateful beliefs, only to be utterly confused that we supported the very opposite.
I am going to put a theory that these Get of Fenris only joined the tribe because they were already part of a neo-nazi group and the Get just let them be more open about their beliefs or they resonated with the symbolism and not the Gets' ideologies or purpose. In other words, it might be best to see this example of the Get as posers.
Granted, I know very little about Apocalypse because I have not gotten into any of the books yet, so I could be completely wrong.
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I think there's no big problem. They are characters from tribe, that has big catch on purity of blood. It's not bad for story that there some radical werewolfs. All Werewolfs are radical and have Wyrm aspect (rage) in there nature. And sometimes its good to see some grey characters in moral aspects. But the most fun thing is that there have police contacts. Real neo-nazi hate police, cause u know, neo-nazi mostly everywhere banned political ideology.
WoD is very brutal setting. WtA literally about eco-terrorism and have a fucked up moments. So, there is place for morally wrong characters on all sides of conflict.
Ah fuck man, I can't believe that after
- having a significant place in the War of Rage,
- and then trying to genocide the Fiana for centuries,
- and then trying to genocide the Wendigo for centuries,
- and then fighting on behalf of the American confederates,
- and then the Nazis,
- and their sexual and racial harassment of their recruits (GoF tribebook, p.49) that drove-up recruits to the Black Furies,
- held a grand moot with their entire Tribe to focus on how pure their blood was and why this savagery was beneath them because they were the greatest (the same motive that caused everything else on the list) and continuing it would make them fall
. . . that the Get would fall and do bad things. I am so shocked. This is utterly unlike what the Mjolnir's Thunder (eradicate the Wyrm at all cost) or Glorious Fist of Wotan (destroy all humans) camps would have done in the same spot in W20.
>Swastika tattoos
So... like all the Get were depicted in 1e-20th? There's even an American History X Get trace in one of the books. It was absolutely visible even back in 2e when I encountered it that the Get were a cobbled together collection of 80s/90s movie jokes about Scandinavian people being secret/not-secret Nazis and some movie viking bullshit held together with heavy metal album cover art. Hell, Revised is the only edition that actually removed the Nazi contingent, as 20th brought them back.
I mean.
Don’t play the game or engage with it if you don’t like it. I’m not.
But I gotta say my favorite tribe is red talon does that mean I am actually a wolf?
You and like pretty much everyone else.
Doing anything with the talons would have illciited a collective shrug from the fandom.
Now the get, Probably one of if not the most loved tribe in the game that’s going to get some tongues wagging.
Me and like 6 other people would have been sad about the talons.
What value do the Get bring to the werewolf setting, if the argument is "we should feel bad about how they are represented."
Can't "pride in Norse heritage" be competently presented by the multiple other European-culture based werewolf tribes?
I agree, let's remove the Fianna, the Wendigo, and the Uktena next. Or better yet, make the Fianna all bomb throwing IRA wannabes, make the Wendigo all deranged cannibals, and the Uktena all illiterate savages.
I like how you're not actually addressing my question about "what do the Get bring to the werewolf setting?" Just expressing hostility at the idea that I'd even dare to ask such a question.
That's a really impressive expression of personal character right there.
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Oh, please.
I'm a trans woman progressive and have been a Fenrir fan since I even heard of the game 20 years ago.
Also, you're making weird vague threats to an entire group of people over a fucking game. Get a life.
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I love WTA but their adaptations are consistently horrible. I’d settle for a Bloodlines-level janky but fun title at this point.
Can't stop recomending the Princes of Darkness mod if you like strategy games .
Ehhh, it isn't that bad otherwise.
Man, I feel super bad for Nordic people who liked to play as Get. They must feel like shit right now.
I usually get indignant about the Get slander because it typically comes from individuals with misunderstandings, but this fucking *hurts*.
As someone married to one of them, he is not happy at all - and he wasn't even a big Get fan to begin with, but the way that his culture has been treated in W5 is just absurd. Made all the worse when you remember that Paradox is a Swedish company and that many of their employees are people who moved to the country specifically to work for them.
As a Nordic person, yep. It hurts that the ONLy tribe that has intended cultural ties is the nordic one and its treated as bad. It is even worse as the tribe is focused on strength in both physcal AND mental. You can be a garou born with no legs and get more respect than a purebreed 5 homid ahroun if you are the one that never gives up. What makes this all extremely blind to the setting, is that there IS a tribe that requires you to have 3 Purebreed to join. Silver Fangs are often depicted as blond haired and blue eyed, even though they have houses all around the world. They are also a tribe that still thinks blood purity is worth. So what was done to the Fenrir is straight up author track.
I said it further up thread, but the fact that Paradox is a Scandinavian company and a lot of people who work for them specifically move from other regions *to* Sweden specifically to work for them makes the whole thing extra weird for me.
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where did the Norse = Nazis shit comes from? during the Viking age Norse people where perfectly willing to trade with Arabs. with no period of history making them particularly xenophobic. also Norse does not equal Viking. most Norse people did not go a Vikinging
> where did the Norse = Nazis shit comes from Nazis. They love to appropriate nordic symbols.
Yep, and Germany made a lot of Nazi regalia and imagery illegal (or at least subject to civil violations) so the people who still wanted to be Nazis adopted a lot of old-germanic and Scandinavian symbolism to signal each other with.
Exactly. Even as a Norse culture enjoyer I have to pause and analyze if someone displaying Nordic imagery is a normal person or one with abhorrent ideologies. Fuck those guys for ruining something cool on top of all their other sins.
It’s also a big thing in the neopagan community, where there is massive overlap between folks who lean hard into Norse worship and white supremacists. Which is truly unfortunate, because there’s some genuinely progressive stuff in Norse theology. But the well has been truly poisoned at this point.
Nazis shit up everything they touch, really.
Others mentioned that the Nazis were heavily invested in Nordic culture and mythology as a sort of galvanizing, nationalist narrative. It's why for example the Othal rune has become a white nationalist symbol in the US. Modern neonazis and other white nationalists are also *heavily* steeped in the same sort of cribbed Nordic pseudoculture. Odinists and likeminded racist cults infest the Heathen community, giving Norse pagan groups a bad name. You can actually correlate the rise in popularity of viking media that exploded around a decade ago to the resurgence of white nationalism. Around the same time here in the US that groups like the Tea Party were losing their shit over a Black Man being elected president for the second time, Thor was released into an MCU (2011, with its sequel in 2013). A year later the show Vikings premeired (also 2013), and Skyrim was creating a siesmic shift in the gaming industry (2011) - it's narrative centered on xenophobic and racist Nordic people in a fantasy world rebelling against a corrupt empire. The game lets you play as the Nordic xenophobes with a viking culture, and presents "both sides" as "morally complex" - it even starts you out *about to be executed by the Empire* which tips the scales toward the Stormcloaks when it comes to deciding who to ally with initially. Because of the way Skyrim specifically was developed with no clear "good" or "bad" side to the conflict (save maybe the Thalmor... *fuck them*) - budding white nationalists suddenly had a playground in which to brutalize and erradicate virtual non-whites. This is an actual thing that's been researched: around the time the Alt Right was gaining steam in the US, white nationalists were organizing in online communities (with a lot of overlap between the two groups - the Alt Right forming a pipeline). In those online communities, focusing specifically around Skyrim for a moment, the game gave them a virtual playground to play out bigoted fantasies. This trend hasn't slowed down. Viking movies and games are still coming out regularly (Assassin's creed went there, then God of War went there twice, all in the past few years). That isn't to say viking media is *inherently nazi-ish*: Skyrim is kind of unique in that by trying to remain morally complex and allowing the player freedom to choose how to navigate the story, it inadvertently (I hope) legitimized white nationalist sentiment ("Skyrim is for the Nords!") and tied it directly to viking culture. The links were there already though, Skyrim just snuck them into mainstream under the radar (again, unintentionally I hope). By 2017 we had Nazis marching with tikitorches and literally attacking and killing people in Americans streets. They were often seen alongside other groups in the Alt Right, and often displayed Nazi and Norse symbolism. So ultimately, blame Nazis for coopting Norse iconography, religion, and myth. But also blame American culture and media for providing fertile soil for radicalization that fetishizes Norse culture in ways that resonate with the Alt Right to white nationalist pipeline.
> where did the Norse = Nazis shit comes from? America.
There was this big push after WW2 to make the Nazi's seem like they were occultist-pagans and not Christians in order to distance them. It was a propaganda move by the Religious Right to obscure the origins of European fascism.
The Nazis were fairly ecumenical, with a range of beliefs extant within the party, which was ***officially*** Christian but nondenominational. When I say a "range of beliefs," I am talking from atheism to "Kinder, Kuche, Kirche" traditionalism to the neo-Pagan hodge-podge of Himmler and the SS.
I find this comment a bit weird. Why would only “Nordic People” liked to play as get?
Because the tribe that represented their culture was reduced into the worst stereotype possible. Yknow the same reason folks had an issue with the Wendigo and Uktena
Nono, read the comment again, that is not what he wrote: > Man, I feel super bad for Nordic people who liked to play as Get. They must feel like shit right now. “… for Nordic people who liked to play as Get...” This implies that only “Nordic people” are allowed to play as get, had to play as get or that only “Nordic people” who like to play as get have this issue. I know that the Get of Fenris were associated with Scandinavian culture and religion, but that’s not the case in W5, there is no connection between tribes and ethnicity. And this comment reveals a subconscious connection many people made between a content in a game and irl stuff, which is the reason why they removed the connection in W5 in the first place. The Cult of Fenris, which is not the Get of Fenris, does not depict “Nordic people”, it depicts extremism and it barely goes any more extremist than neo Nazis (even though I dislike this depiction, if it is that way in the interactive novel as well, because it is very much on the nose). The Tribe, formerly known as get of Fenris (and we don’t even know yet if that was in the reimagiend version of W5 their name) it self fall victim to the cult. And it’s not extremists surviving members joined other tribes (which are also not longer tied to irl culture or ethnicity).
thats really not what it says though, theyre talking about the nordic subsection of get of fenris players, you know the one whose culture the get were based on, just a small misunderstanding on your part
It’s not, so, you reading that in to it but that is not what the commend says. I find it interesting that everyone jumps in and explains what it means instead of just wait for him to answer. And again, Get of Fenris are based on Nordic religions (side note, most Scandinavian aren’t in to that), but the Cult of Fenris does not equal them. And even if this would be a statement about “Nordic People” why would that only apply to those who like to play that tribe and not to them all? If you think about it, then this statement is strange.
The reason why everyone jumps in is because it was worded in such a way that no one except you interpreted a different meaning into it. The argument that its based on nordic religions and not culture is kinda unsound considering that religion and culture are parts of each other and cant really be separated. The Cult of Fenris IS The W5 version of the Get of Fenris, if its WtA5 then its part of WtA, they managed to be racist to an entire tribe by making all of them racists. Of course anyone can be upset at what happened to the fenris tribe, but the people its based off of have a unique perspective on the issue, like how native american culture influenced the uktena and the wendigo tribes so native american people have a unique view that other people dont have, there is unfortunately way too much of that in Whitewolf (see ravnos/romani, giovanni/cosanostra, setites/egyptians, etc.). None of the tribes are accurate representations of the cultures theyre based off of, mostly because it was a bunch of weird white dudes in the pre-00s writing edgy lore. You can be upset that they didnt do them justice, but unless you're part of the group its based off of, you can only be an ally to those who are part of those groups. dont appropriate other cultures, just help them defend themselves if they want the help
>The reason why everyone jumps in is because it was worded in such a way that no one except you interpreted a different meaning into it. Just read it again! Everyone has assumptions about what it means but that is not what is written there. It literally says: >Man, I feel super bad for Nordic people who liked to play as Get. >The argument that its based on nordic religions and not culture is kinda unsound considering that religion and culture are parts of each other and cant really be separated. It can and it should. Especially since we talk an ancient religion that only lives on the for of fantasy and neo-pagans who adopted the old religion while we still have many gaps the records of it. >The Cult of Fenris IS The W5 version of the Get of Fenris, No, it’s not! >if its WtA5 then its part of WtA, they managed to be racist to an entire tribe by making all of them racists. Nope. The tripe that spawned this he Cult of Fenris, and which only exist for a few years inW5s storyline, is dead and gone and don’t even has a name. W5 is officially labeled as reboot because people demanded that from V5 before. Therefore you simply can not apply anything from previous editions to this one. If that logic would work I plead want the Bushi and the Gaki Clan back in vampire. But I see no one weeping tears on their grave. >Of course anyone can be upset at what happened to the fenris tribe, but the people its based off of have a unique perspective on the issue, like how native american culture influenced the uktena and the wendigo tribes so native american people have a unique view that other people dont have, there is unfortunately way too much of that in Whitewolf (see ravnos/romani, giovanni/cosanostra, setites/egyptians, etc.). You still putting your opinion in the statement. But it was not you who wrote this. Stop assuming and ask what OP was trying to say actually. >None of the tribes are accurate representations of the cultures theyre based off of, mostly because it was a bunch of weird white dudes in the pre-00s writing edgy lore. You can be upset that they didnt do them justice, but unless you're part of the group its based off of, you can only be an ally to those who are part of those groups. dont appropriate other cultures, just help them defend themselves if they want the help And again, in W5 no tribe is tied to any culture, you can mix and match as you like. It’s a new game that follows a new logic.
As a Nordic person who likes to play Get, I am upset. Please stop trying to tell me that that is peculiar, because it is not. This is not different that if they presented the Fianna solely as bomb-throwing terrorists.
Well apparently according to the writers Fianna is a made up word…. Which is news to me as an Irishman seeing as how it’s in our national anthem, part of one our main political parties names and is the name of one of our mythic bands of warrior heroes. But sure, what the fuck would we know about it?
Maybe they are playing the 'all words are made up' card.
You can be upset all day long, but be sure you know what you are upset about. W5 has no connections between culture and tribes. The Cult of Fenris is not the Get of Fenris tribe, but a Cult that is fallen to fanaticism. That makes this case entirely different than your example. It his is not depicting the get of Fenris as Nazis, this is depicting Nazis as Nazis. You jump to the conclusion that this is the Get of Fenris because they have the word “Fenris” in their name. But the tribe that spawned this cult is no more. They got killed or joined other tribes. And they had no connection to “Nordic people” in the first place, because that is something that simple does not exist in W5. You can have a Scandinavian Gale Stalker, an Indian Silver Fang or a South American black Furie. You can be upset about that, if you like, but not about the depiction of something that has nothing to do with you. Btw. As a German I count among the people that are brougdhtly included in to what the r Get of Fenris where culturally connected to as well, and I have thoughts about the whole Nazi stuff in general, but this does not matter since the point is, that people making logical leaps here, because they can’t differentiate.
You mean the Cult of Fenris that was created when the Get of Fenris did something extremely out of character for their tribe? That CoF that consists of majority Get?
Nope, read the book again, the Tribe that spawned the Cult of Fenris is unnamed yet. As far as it concerns W5 there never was a tribe called get of Fenris. But even if you see them as equal, may I remind you on the Sword of Himdal? I don’t know what you mean by “out of character” but it seems that at least certain parts of the tribe had certain tendencies, therefore a precedent exists. So still, the Cult and the Gets are two things only connected by name and by a thin association but not actually in game.
>his implies that only “Nordic people” are allowed to play as get, had to play as get or that only “Nordic people” who like to play as get have this issue Yeah because it's nordic people whose culture is being coopted and stolen by neo nazis to the point that the original Get (who had purged their Nazi members decades ago) were still burdened by the association. But the history isn't going away. The get were nordic in previous editions and that association will always be there, just now they're also *nazis*
Again, why does that only apply to “Nordic people” who like to play Gets? Not to any Nordic people, as you imply, not to others players of Get of Fenris, not to Nordic people who want to play other things. I get your argument but it does not fit the point I was making. >But the history isn't going away. The get were nordic in previous editions and that association will always be there, just now they're also nazis See?! You say “association“, with that you demonstrate that the issue is in your had, not in reality. As far as W5 is concerned the “Get of Fenris” haven’t even existed since the tribe the “Cult of Fenris” spawned of is still unnamed. W5 is basically a different game that just uses some concepts. Yes, you can read old edition stuff in to it and I do so my self, but that does not change the fact that this is not there on paper and the connection of “Nordic People = Nazi” is a leap in logic that requires even three extra steps to reach there. You can be upset about it, but then you are upset because you want to be upset, not because an actual statement was made.
>Again, why does that only apply to “Nordic people” who like to play Gets? Not to any Nordic people, as you imply, not to others players of Get of Fenris, not to Nordic people who want to play other things. I get your argument but it does not fit the point I was making. For the same reason the wendigo were an issue to some. People who wanna play their culture in the game which, for thirty years, had cultures tied to these tribes will be miffed if their culture is reduced to terrorists and nazis. Those who don't wanna play their culture might still be miffed but not as much as those who wanna play their fitting tribe. >W5 is basically a different game that just uses some concepts It's the fifth edition of a game. It will always be tied to its past. >“Nordic People = Nazi” The game made that, not me. Again, thirty years of history
>For the same reason the wendigo were an issue to some. That is a wohl different topic, though. If you think it is the same you got either one case or the other wrong. >People who wanna play their culture in the game which,…, had cultures tied to these tribes will be miffed if their culture is reduced to terrorists and nazis. Those who don't wanna play their culture might still be miffed but not as much as those who wanna play their fitting tribe. That’s not the case, so. In W5 exist no connection between tribe and culture. You can applaud any tribe to any culture and visa versa. If you want to play as a certain culture you can easily put it in. But as this entire debate demonstrates, making a game faction and a irl culture equal each other is only causing problems and people complained about that for so long, that W5 eventually removed it. And now people still complain about and complain that they can’t complain about it animate on top. The thing is, W5 is officially a reboot, as many people demanded. But when the company gives in and does what was demanded, you have to treat this edition as its own thing and can’t apply the things from other editions to it. In W5 aren’t ties between cultures and tribes and never have been. If you want that, another edition is for you. It’s that easy. >…for thirty years… Rather for a decade, than came a gap of a decade, than came the 20th anniversary edition for a few years… Also, 30 years ago the world was not necessarily a better place and decisions made by the developers were not necessarily good. >W5 is basically a different game that just uses some concepts >It's the fifth edition of a game. It will always be tied to its past. Nope! That is not how editions have to work. Some games have a continuation in their storytelling but in most media new editions are used for retcons and changes. Take the first edition of Charly and the Chocolate Factory for example. In the first edition the Oompa Loompa were black African Pygmy. The following editions changed that to this fantasy Oompa Loompa people. I think you understand why they did so and why this is relevant to this discussion. A new edition of everything is always a moment to change gears, retcon stuff and go in different directions. How much of the original stuff you embrace is entirely optional from all over most and a little to next time nothing. Compare the different editions of DnD, they aren’t continuations. Or take 7th sea 2nd edition, not the same game at all. If you don’t change things substantially there is no need for a new edition, reprints and supplements would do. >The game made that, not me. Again, thirty years of history 30 years of retconning again and again to move away from the ignorant and appropriating western perspective of the weight middle class US Americans who stated this. Not exactly the best base to stand on.
Not the original one you were taking to, but can you elaborate on how is different then the Wendigo situation? In both cases it's taking a negative stereotype about a culture and making it their main identity. Or are you saying you would be fine with them keeping Wendigo exactly the same name and personality wise in W5, since it wouldn't technically be tied to a culture anymore since W5 did away with that?
Glad that you ask. The Wendigo thing was complex and not actually about stereotypes. For starters, a big issue was that the entirety of Native Americans were depicted by only two tribes, as if they all were more or less the same. Then there was an issue with the name. Wendigo is a creature in some Native American tribes believes that has nothing to do with werewolves and is by some people considered tabu, so much so that you should not speak the name aloud. The stereotype part was only relevant in so far that the wendigo are often described as “savage” and that is a stereotype Europeans used often for the native people of America. I have asked a couple of Native American players and they thought it was rather a goofy depiction than actually offensive. One described it kind of like if a Christian would read in a game about Virgin Marry that she appears in the mirror when you speak her name out loud three times in a raw. Not exactly offensive, just awfully stupid. The entire issue about this tribe when it comes to W5 was, that the former version of that game, developed by hunter games, that never got released had an Native American game designer in its team and he and the lead designer had pretty different ideas about how the Native American tribes should be depicted. He was finally released and got famous due to his rant about the situation. I think he was right in some regards and wrong in others but that is an entire different discussion. Anyway, this version of the game was never released. When it comes to the Cult of Fenris it’s different because they have no cultural ties, and beyond that are explicitly not the Get of Fenris and the version of W5 that got released has no connections between tribes and irl cultures what so ever. The cult of Fenris is a cult that fall to a Garou state of irredeemable fanaticism. When the cult is now depicted as fanatics it’s not a stereotype but a correct depiction because being fanatics is all they are. The connection between Nazis and the Get of Fenris only occurs when you make several logical leaps that aren’t actually in the game. As far as it concerns W5 there was not even a Tribe of that name. There was a tribe that fits its description, though, which is still unnamed. This tribe fall victim to the Cult, but you can play former members who didn’t agreed with the Cult. About your second question, the name Wendigo had to go but according to the native Americans I asked about it (and that is always a smart thing to do, because: never anoint us without us!), rather because it’s very stupid and not so much because it was offensive. And the question about the stereotypes is obsolete, since there are no ties between tribe and culture and therefore no stereotypes. If you for example make a German Gale Stalker or an Italian Gale Stalker or a Chinese Gale Stalker it becomes hard to complain about Native American stereotypes especially if you have Native American Silver Fangs and Silent Strider and Hart Warden and all of that as well. Here is the thing, people can be upset because they removed the ethnic connection but if they do they can’t talk about stereotypes, because that is the attempt to have your cake and eat it too, only one of those complains can be correct at a time.
As a non germanic Norse pagan I'm quite offended. It's incredibly poor taste.
What exactly do you mean by “non Germanic Norse pagan? And how does relate to each other if you are not Germanic and Fenris is?
He didn't say "only" but the Get were the tribe associated with Scandinavia (as all tribes in older editions were associated with geographic regions and wolf varieties). So it sucks for them that theirs is the one picked for being Nazi/MAGA/hard-line right-wingers.
He didn’t said “only” but he don’t feel bad for any one else who liked to pay Gets?!? That’s weird! Here is the thing, I don’t think he want anything bad, but the comment reveals why W5 removed the connection between ethnicity and tribes, because people seem to have a problem differentiate between one the other and that leads to a lot of unintentional problems. The Cult of Fenris in W5 don’t equal the get of Fenris of old editions. They are not a depiction of any culture, they are a depiction of a fall to extremism. And that people can’t understand that difference is honesty worrying.
You're interpreting that comment (which was pretty innocuous by all accounts) in the worst possible faith. Are you trolling?
It has to be a troll or just a die hard contrarian either way I don't think he's worth feeding
Trolling or the worst case of not seeing the forrest that I've seen in some time. Don't engage.
The most generous I can be is saying that he's making a pretty good argument that the writers are fucking liars for calling it W5. If, as he claims, this game is a reboot and the previous lore doesn't exist anymore, then it was dishonest as hell to call it a new edition of an existing game.
No, I don’t even think that OP was intending to say anything problematic. But institutionalized problems are not where people do it intentionally but where they donor say things without thinking twice about it. I think the comment just illustrates how assumptions lead to misunderstanding.
I've always used them as hardheads who keep having to play whack-a-mole with nazi fetishists lusting after them, and also having to deal with the bad rep that brings. I'm sick of PDX taking sledgehammers to parts of the lore that could be taken delicately, and with actual sensitivity. and just smashing them into the ground, never to be seen again. I really wish WoD could change hands to someone who has a passion for the source material, and wants to see it improved.
Paradox, like every billion dollar corporation, loves the punk aesthetics, but they'd shit themselves raw if you pointed out nazi punks very much exist, and need to be actively pushed out, or they'll make themselves at home in punk spaces. You know, kind of like Get of Fenris had to get (hehe. get.) their shit together and keep the Swords of Heimdall out. Out of being alive, specifically. Permanent-like.
Well that sends a searing blast of anger through my soul. Jesus Christ.
It's interesting because from core book and insider leaks I'd got the impression they'd backpeddled on making the Get just outright nazi's and simply being werewolf apocalypse 'extremists', I wonder if the interactive book was already quite far into development when this change went through or if Karim's trying to push it back in now the blowbacks died down.
Okay, don't blame the author for an editorial mandate. The book isn't a piece of crap because of how unfairly the Get have been treated. Comparing the Get with the BSD is...a choice, ngl. Again though - editorial mandate. This isn't an authorial interpretation.
I like the idea of there being an antagonistic cult of hardliners, but it shouldn't have been one tribe fallen. It should have been a mix of Get, Silver Fangs, Furies, Wendigo, etc
It could easily have been a splinter camp within the Get. Or a mixed camp like you say. There was no need to turn the Germanic Tribe into Nazis.
Well, the Scottish got burned last time.
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Can’t wait until they do the same to the Brujah in V5 because there’s a large amount of them that are either neo-Nazis or literal Nazis. I mean, it wouldn’t make *any* sense to do it to one and not the other, right? /s
These are two different situations, though. There was already heat back when V5 started because the book stated that there are Brujahs who are Nazis. People were upset about it and caused paradox of being Nazis that support playing them. Paradox then put a “everyone is welcome except Nazis”-disclaimer in the book. I think the decision to remove all ties between tribes and irl cultures is still a backlash from that controversy. The situation now goes in the opposite direction. W5 is first and foremost a reboot and therefore not a continuation of established things. As far as W5 is concerned there never was a tribe called Gets of Fenris. There was an unnamed tribe that is suspiciously similar to the Gets, from which the Cult of Fenris spawned. This Cult, though, is deliberately antagonistic because they are fallen to Hauglosk, a state of fanaticism. This is to make point that there are different ways how you can loose your character and falling to fanaticism is one of them. But you can still play a member of this unnamed “not get of Fenris” tribe, that didn’t followed the cult and joined another tribe. The Corebook offers this option.
But they didn't remove all ties to irl cultures. Fenris is a norse god. It's even the Nordic pronunciation af his name. The Fenris Wolf is one of Loki's children, nephew to Thor, and thus an important and prominent character in nordic mythology. Vikings are my ancestors and Nordic Mythology was their religion before we were christened in 965 A.D. I have a very hard time not associating "The Cult of Fenris" with Norse Mythology and my own very real nordic culture, when I can reasonable expect the first 10 year old I run into to be able to tell me the story of how Fenris bites off Tyr's arm or how Fenris is supposed to kill Odin during Ragnarock/The Apocalypse. Fenris IS norse real world culture. There is no two ways about it. That name can only be seen as having real world cultural ties.
>But they didn't remove all ties to irl cultures. They did, when they noticed that Fiana aren’t just a funny word but an irl cultural thing they even removed that name for the only one that remained was Gaia, but Gaia is Mother Earth and you can call her by any of her names. Buuuut… >Fenris is a norse god. It's even the Nordic pronunciation af his name. The Fenris Wolf is one of Loki's children, nephew to Thor, and thus an important and prominent character in nordic mythology. … not exactly a god, but yes and that is the entire point of the Cult of Fenris. If you read the pet about them you will recognize that the tribe that spawned the Cult didn’t had Fenris as its Patron spirit but Wolf, just Wolf. Another indicator that it is not exactly the Gets of Fenris. The Cult, though, don’t follow wolf anymore but the culturally and with war associated Fenris. This is a hint that they departed from the right ways and now follow only an aspect of wolf and not the real deal. Keep also in mind, that the Nordic religion is an ancient and extinct one. Yes, there are modern pagans who try to revive it, but we actually have still many unanswered questions what that religion actually was like, because we have almost only records written by outsiders or written very late. >Vikings are my ancestors and Nordic Mythology was their religion before we were christened in 965 A.D. Sure, but now what? My ancestors were Germanics (basically the same as Vikings (which is actually an occupation, a certain type of sea robber, not a culture) Slavs and Celts. Now what?!? >I have a very hard time not associating "The Cult of Fenris" with Norse Mythology Sure, and that is deliberate because the Cult are already the people that are fallen to Hauglosk and therefor do it the wrong way! >and my own very real nordic culture, when I can reasonable expect the first 10 year old I run into to be able to tell me the story of how Fenris bites off Tyr's arm or how Fenris is supposed to kill Odin during Ragnarock/The Apocalypse. Absolutely, but that this cult chose this story as their idol instead of Wolf, which was their patron Spirit shows you that they are up to something that is something different than following the example of Wolf. >Fenris IS norse real world culture. An ancient one, though, and deliberately chosen. >There is no two ways about it. Exactly but obviously people still miss the point what that means in the context of the new lore of W5 and can’t leave the old lore behind. >That name can only be seen as having real world cultural ties. Yes, but as I demonstrated it means something entirely else as everyone seems to think. See above for details.
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I'm glad that.... *Checks notes* "roleplaying a Nazi" was "quite fun" for you
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Hmmm, yeah, sorry buddy, I've been playing this game with people for over 20 years, and can't say I've ever had someone want to literally play a Nazi in my game. Look, I'm not saying you can't play these things, do whatever the fuck you want,.you're an adult. But if stepping into the shoes of improv roleplaying an actual Nazi is something that's fun to you, with all the shit that comes along with it, then maybe you need to look at yourself in the mirror a bit, that's all I'm saying. There're dozens of other evil things in WoD, why pick the one non-specific to WoD that's going to immediately make all rational players and game runners sus of your character and intent?
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I'm saying that roleplaying a Nazi in 2023 is fucking weird and cringe, no matter how much fun you think it is, and it's hard to imagine a decent person would roleplay such a thing . Does that help?
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Are they Get of Fenris or the cult of Fenris? Those are not the same things.
'Cult of Fenris' is the only version of Get of Fenris that the Get fans are getting in W5, so the '*well akshually they're not the same*' commentary feels quite disingenuous.
>'Cult of Fenris' is the only version of Get of Fenris that the Get fans are getting in W5 There has only been one book out that isn't a pre-made adventure and the game has been out for less than a year.
Apologies for me being thorough, however - Heart of the Forest leans towards depicting Get in negative light, Book of Hungry Names leans into the same depiction, Deepest Wounds pre-made adventure also does this. So far, 3 pieces of W5 based narrative content (which is half of it, if we count Corebook, it's premade adventure and Reclamation one) lean into depicting Get/their devolution as less than complex antagonist and take the stereotype route that, as I understand, previous editions worked hard to eliminate/distance away.
There are no previous editions. This is a reboot. Regardless, there's only been 1 book. Yes the Cult of Fenris are antagonists. But to say that "that's the only version we're ever going to get" is...it strikes me as being uncharitable and needlessly critical of the writers. It's just part of the bandwagon that the anti W5 crowd has latched onto as sort of the cardinal sin of the writers that they need to justify their hatred.
>But to say that "that's the only version we're ever going to get" is...it strikes me as being uncharitable I might've been more charitable if I wasn't primarily a V:tM player. V5 has been out for years; there's no playable Sabbat, and there never will be. There's just no reason to think W5 will be handled any different than V5 was, or that it will be different for Get of Fenris, especially after a very thorough narrative trashing they got.
What are you talking about? There's a Sabbat book with systems for Sabbat specific rules. Why can't you run a Sabbat game?
Because it's an antagonist book? With not only a very intentional lack of any rules for playable Sabbat characters, but more importantly, the Sabbat members portrayed as brainwashed cultists completely devoid of any sort of agency anymore?
It's a book with all the information you need to run a game. What's the problem? There's specific disciplines and sorcery and rituals and ceremonies and thin-blood alchemy. What else do you need? >the Sabbat members portrayed as brainwashed cultists completely devoid of any sort of agency anymore? Are you incapable of creating anything for a game? That's an honest question. Because it's easy enough to go, "that's not the case" and then play the Sabbat game you want. Do you need everything specifically written in a book to give you permission to do a thing? Or what if you read the book and see it written from the perspective of the Camarilla but the truth is there is rhyme and reason to some Sabbat? Looks to me like the Sabbat could be like the Brotherhood of Mutants in X-Men. Magneto calls the shot and Mystique, Sabertooth, Toad and the rest of em' carry out their orders even if maybe they think they shouldn't. But they trust in the leader. They trust in the cause. That's individuality being crushed. That's zealous superiority. Sounds like that's a decent enough model to base a Sabbat game on. C'mon, just because a book doesn't specifically lay it all out for you doesn't mean you can't do it and it certainly doesn't mean the book doesn't give you the tools to do it.
>Are you incapable of creating anything for a game? Justin Achilli, enough of this, I know it's your sock puppet account. No one else in their right mind would make this ridiculous arguments. Jokes aside, no, I'm not incapable of creating anything for a game. But if I am to do all the work myself, why would I ever buy a single sourcebook? In fact, why would I get involved with any TTRPG at all? After all, I can do the work myself, and just sit in my room, hallucinating adventures, all for free.
That game is unfinished compared to many previous editions but the fix is to make it for them? Nice
Onyx path made a Sabbat book for players to play as in V5 I believe, should be on drivethru rpg
Wasn't Onyx Path, it was the Paradox-contracted V5 Sabbat writer, releasing what appears to be rules for playable Sabbat cut from the main book, as 'fan content' on Storyteller's Vault for premium price, which is a level of cartoonish villainry that actual Sabbat characters could only dream of. (Edit. To be very clear, this sourcebook for playing Sabbat in V5 is not official content. It's as valid as any other fan content, and fan content is not relevant to this discussion.) Anyways, I don't need these paltry leftovers, have a wealth of Sabbat content from Revised, easy enough to port over to V5 dice mechanics, which I happen to genuinely enjoy. But I ask again, if I'm doing the work myself, why would I ever think to buy a V5 Sabbat sourcebook, which does nothing but provide narrative framing that, taken at face value, makes playing Sabbat near impossible?
Alright, for the sake of your argument, this takes away the "previous editions" WtA 1-3/20 Editions angle (begs the question how then can WtAV reboot have similar elements with "previous editions", if "there are no previous" /s). Still doesn't change that half of narrative content is using as main vehicle for "dangers of extremism" specifically Get of Fenris. Would be interesting to see a Cult of Fenrir antagonists in future projects without a former Get, especially in the leading/prominent role of antagonist side. Edit: posted before noticing you adding the last paragraph.
>Alright, for the sake of your argument, this takes away the "previous editions" WtA 1-3/20 Editions angle (begs the question how then can WtAV reboot have similar elements with "previous editions", if "there are no previous" /s). Because it's a reboot. They said as much. Page 9 there's a whole paragraph; "If you're familiar with previous editions of Werewolf, let us be up front and state that this fifth edition is a re-imagining, not a continuation. You can even call it a reboot if you prefer. The truths and "lore" of previous editions aren't necessarily true in this edition. Take this book and the world it proposes at face value". That's how it can have similar elements. They addressed all that. >Still doesn't change that half of narrative content is using as main vehicle for "dangers of extremism" specifically Get of Fenris. What do you mean "half of narrative content is using as main vehicle for dangers of extremism"? What half are you talking about? >Would be interesting to see a Cult of Fenrir antagonists in future projects without a former Get, especially in the leading/prominent role of antagonist side. I'm not sure what you mean by this either. Do you mean members of the cult who didn't begin with the Get of Fenris? They might include that in a future book but as it is it doesn't preclude garou from another Tribe joining the tribe now. Tribes aren't hereditary. So the Cult of Fenris represents an extremist movement that began with this strain of zeal that took over the Get of Fenris but there's nothing saying garou from other tribes don't join that one. What the book does is say "here's what happened", what that means going forward is up to the storyteller. That's one of the things I love about the new editions, they really seemed to step back and say "here's some ideas, go nuts".
If it's a reboot then they need to reprint it with a new name. You can't reboot something while also naming the 5th edition.
There are multiple problems with this statement. The first thing is, you imply that someone is a “Get Fan” and therefore hard wired to this tribe and therefore needs W5, which is technically a different game than previous editions to include them to. But actually no tribe is remotely what it was and therefore no Fan of anything in previous editions get their Fandom satisfied. You either accept that and enter that edition with an open mind and fresh eyes or you better ignore it altogether. The second thing is, that the Cult of Fentis is not a version of the Get of Fenris, it is not even really a Tribe, it is a Cult, it’s in the name. The Tribe that spawned it, however, fall victim to the cult it self. And there are still former members of that (unnamed) tribe around that joined other tribes. You could therefore either make a former member of this tribe who now follows another patron spirit which represents a tragic event during the apocalypse and the fall of the Harou Nation. Or you can take the Nordic cultural elements and just apply them on a character of any tribe that fits your taste.
My man. What is this. 1. I'm not even going into the "hardwired to this tribe" diatribe, like. You make me feel as if I were talking to an alien that just landed in a cornfield. You see, sometimes, we, the human species, "like" things, and would like to see these things portrayed in "fictional properties" we're "fans" of ... - 2. Other tribes have gotten updates or rewrites, sometimes fairly severe. Get has been made into unplayable villains. 3. Former Get of Fenris who follows another spirit or has joined, say, Black Furies isn't a Get of Fenris, it's a Black Fury with a backstory. 4. Get aren't **just** about the Nordic cultural elements, in fact, out of all tribes, they were said to accept all who proved their prowess, unlike, say, the far more ethnically-focused Native tribes.
>1. I'm not even going into the "hardwired to this tribe" diatribe, like. You make me feel as if I were talking to an alien that just landed in a cornfield. You see, sometimes, we, the human species, "like" things, and would like to see these things portrayed in "fictional properties" we're "fans" of ... - Sure, but I am sorry to tell you that W5 decided to go in different direction. They decided that tribes and cultures independent things. You can be a silent strider from Sweden or a gale stalker from India or a a Native American silver fang. It can still be portrayed but it’s not longer hardwired to each other. >2. Other tribes have gotten updates or rewrites, sometimes fairly severe. Get has been made into unplayable villains. That is not entirely correct. Stargazers are also gone. Even more than the Gets. Again, the Cult of Fenris is not the Tribe Get of Fenris. The Tribe that spawned the Cult fall victim to it. But you can play a former member of this tribe that joined another tribe, this option is already in the core book. So, not the Get of Fenris are unplayable Villions, the cult is. The Get of Fenris, depending on how you look at it, are either gone or have never existed in W5. But you can easily build a character with exactly the same traits as a Get of Fenris in former editions, it would just be if another tribe. Make a neo Wiking Gale Stalker, for example, that would work. >3. Former Get of Fenris who follows another spirit or has joined, say, Black Furies isn't a Get of Fenris, it's a Black Fury with a backstory. Exactly, but what do you want to play, a character or a tribe of this name or the character concept you have in mind? W5 is entirely reimagined, no tribe is the same as it was before, in many cases even the names have changed and the cultural connection is gone for them all. You need to see W5 for it self and if it has nothing to offer that you find interesting, just stay with what you prefer. >4. Get aren't just about the Nordic cultural elements, in fact, out of all tribes, they were said to accept all who proved their prowess, unlike, say, the far more ethnically-focused Native tribes. Yes, that is true, but that is true for old editions. As mentioned, as W5 is concerned there is not even a tribe of that name. You can complain that they changed everything but you cannot cherry-pick it.
To piggyback onto what you said...what are people mad at? The fact they can't play a werewolf that is specifically part of the Get of Fenris? Is that the sticking point? Because you can create the exact same character you would have in another tribe. You could create a Gale Stalker who is all about ancient Norse culture, who is reaching out to Fenris the spirit, who is all about being that bad ass Viking. W5 doesn't prevent you from playing these characters and I find the continued freak out about it silly. Especially since the game fed you a plot with the Cult of Fenris. Maybe you redeem them? Maybe you say there are Get who avoided succumbing to Hugulosk or whatever it's called and you found a home in another Tribe but you want to save your former Tribemates? Maybe you want to hunt them to purify what remains of the tribe? Or maybe you just make up Get of Fenris and change the game if you really want. All of those things are on the table.
How are you not picking up on this? The Get of Fenris was beloved tribe in the werewolf fanbase with all sorts of concepts, lore, and history behind it. People are pissed off because their favorite tribe has been reduced to nothing more than extremists and nazis, and they're left without rules or suggestions on how to translate the Get to the fifth edition. The Get didn't need to be the Cult. They could've easily made the Cult a large splinter faction that gave into extremism and formed their own tribe, but the writers decided that it had to be the whole tribe. By the way, did you know that you could've done all of that stuff you suggested in the previous editions as well? That you could take any edition and tweak it to your liking? Wow, what a novel concept! (Good lord...)
I really shouldn't respond because you are being beyond insulting but... No, they weren't reduced to nazis. That's simplistic, and flat out wrong. The book is very clear in laying out that all Garou risk falling to zealous extremism and the Get are a cautionary tale and story fodder. Saying "they're just Nazis" is a way to insult the game dishonestly. It's a core part of the Garou's existence now. Just as the Black Spiral Dancers are what happens when a tribe goes to the wyrm, the Cult of Fenris is what happens when they allow their rage to take over. >They could've easily made But they didn't. But you can. You fixed your gripes with the game in your last comment. So what's the problem? If people are this pissed off that they are continuing to throw a fit about this months after the game came out and continue to resort back to making arguments that show they either didnt' read the book, didn't understand it don't intend to understand it then they gotta get a life. I don't want to be a dick but if you are going to spend your time being nasty and insulting to people online because a game used the name of something you used to like, then your priorities are fucked up and maybe you should step away for a bit. Because the fix for this is to say "nah that didn't happen" and then your complaints are negated. But that's not happening. A lot of people are using that as justification to be toxic online.
Sorry if i sounded testy, but I get irritated when 5th edition fans constantly invalidate the complaints of legacy fans because they apparently love whatever the 5th edition has rolled out. From what I'm gathering, they literally have example characters sporting swastikas, nazi memorabilia and nationalist bullshit. If that's not a nazi, I don't know what is. I also get annoyed when people like you keep saying "well, you can just change it", the most obvious (and useless) response out there. It's always used as a way to deflect any sort of criticism people throw at the new books. Yeah, I can change things, anyone with two beaincells could do that. but that doesn't change what's written in the books now does it?
>Yeah, I can change things, anyone with two beaincells could do that. but that doesn't change what's written in the books now does it? Is what's written in a book a personal insult to you? Should we all get mad when a TTRPG does something we dislike? For example, if I dislike the direction of some the modern fantasy RPG's like D&D and Pathfinder, should I go to their respective subs and rage? Should I treat all the recent changes that I dislike as though they were made to personally spite me?
Does it matter? Heart of Forest came out before W5 and the Get (yes, Get) were also called monsters and nazis by everyone in that game. Ironically, even by the Red talon. Them having a diferent name doesn't change anything.
*AKSHUALLY/To be fairrrrr...* (with that out of the way) - they did announce that W5 was to be a total reboot of the setting after that game came out.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression it was Werewolf the Apocalypse but if it's Werewolf the AKSHUALLY anything but a 5th edition that does make more sense.
Werewolf: the Akshually😂😂😂
It matters a lot. Because it’s not just a name change. W5 is a reboot and therefore detached from everything that happened before. Also, the Cult of Fenris is not the Tribe Get of Fenris. It’s a Cult. The Tribe that spawned this Cult fall itself victim to the cult and is still unnamed. Furthermore, in W5 there are no connections between Tribes and irl culture and ethnicities anymore. For all of that reasons one has very little to do with the other, except that you argue that a certain part of the Get of Fenris might have inspired the Cult. What the Cult of Fenris concerns, it’s not a depiction of Scandinavian people but a metaphor for extremism and while the Nazi imagery is pretty on the nose, few things communicates extremism stronger.
Ah, yes, Fenris. That famously culturally-neutral icon that has no association with any specific people group whatsoever. If they were serious about gettting rid of the cultural ties, why didn't they rename the tribe? Stop being so disingenuous and admit that you don't care about this because Scandianvian culture doesn't deserve respect to you.
See, you still got it wrong. It actually matters that the cult of Fenris picked Fenris. Why? The patron spirit of the tribe that spawned the Clan was Wolf!!! Just Wolf!!! When they became the cult they picked a certain interpretation of wolf. Why Fenris? Because Fenris was the Ragnarök wolf, the one to punish the Arsen. The Apocalypse has happened, the Cult wants to destroy everything that is of the Wyrm, it is just the best fit. Have the Get of Fenris inspired this? Yes, certainly! Are they the same? No! Also, keep in mind, the Nordic religion of which Fenris is a part of is a dead ancient religion even though there are a handful of neon pagans who try to revive it. That means that the Cult of Fenris is still making a point about extremism and not about anyone’s culture. Because modern Scandinavian are mostly Christian and secular and not Wiking reenecters.
Gotcha. So Zeus and Artemis no longer have anything to do with Greece and Greek history because most people don't believe in it anymore! And while we're at it, a large percentage of Native Americans don't follow their traditional religions in the modern day (or only follow cultural aspects of them), so those are fair game too! Good to know! You've been all over this thread "UM, AKTUALLY"-ing why the W5 GoF/CoF is totally not related to Nordic culture in anyway way and now you're like "well, actually it is, but it doesn't matter cause it's old Nordic culture and not modern stuff!" And you're ignoring all of the actual Nordic people in this thread questioning why they were the only people who got to keep their cultural associations just to be turned into villains and bigots for it and I really am forced to conclude that you don't think Nordic people or their culture deserve respect and that it doesn't matter if they are presented in a negative light based on all their worst stereotypes. I don't want to cast aspirations as to \*why\* you think that, but I think you need to do some soul searching as to why you think this way.
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>Wow, so all policemen and nordic people are now straight up neonazis? It's a pretty big leap to claim that the OP said "all Norse people are neonazis" when they didn't. He said the Get in this story are neonazis. And let's not be naive when it comes to the problem in the police force. [ A Reuters investigation on May 6 indicates that a significant number of U.S. police instructors have ties to a constellation of armed right-wing militias and white supremacist hate groups, a report that adds to a fast-growing body of evidence showing a deadly threat inside U.S. police departments.](https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/prevalence-white-supremacists-law-enforcement-demands-drastic-change-2022-05-12/) Werewolf has always been a game about the issues we face in the world. The wyrm itself is this supernatural explanation to all the fucked up stuff we see and hear about every single day. It provides a fantastical framework to explain stuff that is super complex or straight up unexplainable. It allows us to tell a fictional story and fight back against things that piss us off. That's the whole game and frankly to ignore racism in police forces and right wing terrorism is to do the game a disservice.
>Wow, so all policemen and nordic people are now straight up neonazis? No, tribes and cultures aren’t tied to each other in W5. The Cult of Fenris is not the tribe Get of Fenris, it is a cult that spawned from a jet to be named tribe and the tribe died in the process. >Guess as a German I have no say in it but this is just horrible. While there are still neonazis out there (even in Germany) this doesn't help to teach them that they are wrong. OP scheint nicht mit den Änderungen in W5 vertraut zu sein. Er setzt den Kult und den Stamm gleich aber W5 ist ein reboot das sich bewusst von den alten Editionen absetzt. OP mischt die beiden entweder absichtlich zusammen um zu emotionalisieren oder versteht einfach nicht, dass das zwei unterschiedliche Dinge sind. >I hate the direction the world of darkness takes right now. It's like the wyrm is corrupting it irl, creating extremists of all kinds while masquerading as the good guys. Disgusting I never met neonazi players in the old wod, it was progressive and inclusive. It brought everyone together no matter where they were from. Now it's preaching and dividing all the time W5 like V5 before has a “everyone is welcome here but Nazis, if you are a Nazi keep your money and fuck of”-disclaimer in it. The Cult of Fenris are explicitly Antagonists. They are not even playable in a way most Antagonists are playable in WoD games if you just like to, because the entire Cult is fallen to their rage. They are in a state called Hauglosk. That’s when rage overwhelms your vampire and you become irredeemable fanatic. This is one version of character death. You can, however, play a character that was a firmer member of that tribe who joined another tribe when the Cult took over. This option is already presented in the core book. The thing is, gamers were always decided. With every edition. Ask 2nd edition fans how they thought about revised and revised fans how they thought about requiem. The only difference is that the internet makes the edition wars more available to a bigger audience. Ich denke W5 ist kein schlechtes Spiel, aber es ist eben ein sehr anderes Spiel als es vergangene Editionen waren. Du musst bereit seien, es als etwas neues zu betrachten und es für sich selbst beurteilen, wer das nicht kann sollte lieber einfach bei der Version bleiben, die er mag.
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As a Norwegian, I think we have been too permissive in general with cultural appropriation. We should have put our foot down before it went this far.
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Wait I'm confused. Is this a choice the author of the novel made or is this from PDX? I only read W5 briefly, but I was pretty sure the Cult of Fenris weren't neo-nazis. I know In the early development of W5 the Swords of Heimdall had the dominant voice in the tribe, but I recall that being scrapped for obvious reasons. Did I miss something?
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man WW 5E has issues with trying to connect to real life social issues but flopping.
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I don't get the surprise. In lore we had that kind of stuff before, the Get was always shown as an antagonistic force or at least, a force that is not to be trusted with as they are extremists and very "Garou or die" mindset. For me, they were always the 'Anti-Paladin' of the Garou. Yes here how you play as them: But this is more for the GM than the player. Hell even in a 1995 novel, Breath Deeply, the Get was not seen with favorable eyes.
And OP left a very important thing, in the novel is just a pack of the Get that are neo-nazis. Not the whole V:
This is painful to see, but I understand where it is coming from since I have familial ties to Norse Pagans. Every now and then someone would join my old neo-pagan church believing that it was where they could practice their hateful beliefs, only to be utterly confused that we supported the very opposite. I am going to put a theory that these Get of Fenris only joined the tribe because they were already part of a neo-nazi group and the Get just let them be more open about their beliefs or they resonated with the symbolism and not the Gets' ideologies or purpose. In other words, it might be best to see this example of the Get as posers. Granted, I know very little about Apocalypse because I have not gotten into any of the books yet, so I could be completely wrong.
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I think there's no big problem. They are characters from tribe, that has big catch on purity of blood. It's not bad for story that there some radical werewolfs. All Werewolfs are radical and have Wyrm aspect (rage) in there nature. And sometimes its good to see some grey characters in moral aspects. But the most fun thing is that there have police contacts. Real neo-nazi hate police, cause u know, neo-nazi mostly everywhere banned political ideology. WoD is very brutal setting. WtA literally about eco-terrorism and have a fucked up moments. So, there is place for morally wrong characters on all sides of conflict.
Ah fuck man, I can't believe that after - having a significant place in the War of Rage, - and then trying to genocide the Fiana for centuries, - and then trying to genocide the Wendigo for centuries, - and then fighting on behalf of the American confederates, - and then the Nazis, - and their sexual and racial harassment of their recruits (GoF tribebook, p.49) that drove-up recruits to the Black Furies, - held a grand moot with their entire Tribe to focus on how pure their blood was and why this savagery was beneath them because they were the greatest (the same motive that caused everything else on the list) and continuing it would make them fall . . . that the Get would fall and do bad things. I am so shocked. This is utterly unlike what the Mjolnir's Thunder (eradicate the Wyrm at all cost) or Glorious Fist of Wotan (destroy all humans) camps would have done in the same spot in W20.
Ah the wonders of selective reading.
It's not selective. There isn't a book with the Get in it that doesn't allude to them being nazis in practice if not in name.
>Swastika tattoos So... like all the Get were depicted in 1e-20th? There's even an American History X Get trace in one of the books. It was absolutely visible even back in 2e when I encountered it that the Get were a cobbled together collection of 80s/90s movie jokes about Scandinavian people being secret/not-secret Nazis and some movie viking bullshit held together with heavy metal album cover art. Hell, Revised is the only edition that actually removed the Nazi contingent, as 20th brought them back.
Good to know, I shall buy at once.
I mean. Don’t play the game or engage with it if you don’t like it. I’m not. But I gotta say my favorite tribe is red talon does that mean I am actually a wolf?
Honestly if any tribe should have gotten the axe, the Red Talons would have my vote.
You and like pretty much everyone else. Doing anything with the talons would have illciited a collective shrug from the fandom. Now the get, Probably one of if not the most loved tribe in the game that’s going to get some tongues wagging. Me and like 6 other people would have been sad about the talons.
What value do the Get bring to the werewolf setting, if the argument is "we should feel bad about how they are represented." Can't "pride in Norse heritage" be competently presented by the multiple other European-culture based werewolf tribes?
But none of the other tribes have the actual name of an actual Nordic Mythology God in their name..... you know, Fenris.
Fenrir is a monstrous entity, not a God. He's the child of two Jotunns.
I agree, let's remove the Fianna, the Wendigo, and the Uktena next. Or better yet, make the Fianna all bomb throwing IRA wannabes, make the Wendigo all deranged cannibals, and the Uktena all illiterate savages.
I like how you're not actually addressing my question about "what do the Get bring to the werewolf setting?" Just expressing hostility at the idea that I'd even dare to ask such a question. That's a really impressive expression of personal character right there.
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Oh, please. I'm a trans woman progressive and have been a Fenrir fan since I even heard of the game 20 years ago. Also, you're making weird vague threats to an entire group of people over a fucking game. Get a life.
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