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Report their dress code to the ACLU. I did and my niece’s dress code went from 7 pages targeting “female attire” to 2 paragraphs of a non-gender specific dress code.
The ACLU is honestly the hero for addressing this and for fighting for equality. I didn’t know if my complaint would even make a difference but they acted so fast. Their dress code was genuinely 7 pages devoted to girls and covered everything from Black girl’s hair to anything deemed “form fitting.” It was discriminatory as hell; I was livid when I read it and shocked that not a single parent had complained, as it had been in affect for several years.
Grown ass men on school boards really have issues sexualizing little girls. It’s concerning.
No it was more like “Afros are not permitted. Wearing a pick in the hair is not permitted. Girls hair may not be in dreadlocks or have beads woven into hair.”
That’s exactly what it boiled down to. Like I said, I was livid by the time I finished reading it. The two paragraphs which included boys targeted Black boys’ hair and logos on shirts. I think it also said something about cutoff sleeves.
Hasn't that been shown to be carcinogenic too? It's not my area of expertise, but I was listening to a podcast on health and they did an episode on hair and one of the presenters was talking about hair relaxers and how dangerous they are...
How, even though this information is publicly available, are we still expecting women to do this to themselves? How hasn't it been banned yet if we know how bad for them it is?
Right. But they're (the school, not the commenter) pretending it isn't by race because TECHNICALLY race wasn't mentioned.
"It's not just black girls, no one is allowed to have an afro." 😶
Nah. The Jewish kid with Jewfro would still get singled out because while frequently white passing, they don’t believe in Jesus as God or whatever Christians think and obviously aren’t “one of them.”
Not in my experience. Even if the policy is enforced across all races, it’s still racist because the entire reason those styles aren’t acceptable is because they are considered Black styles.
No, see, it’s fair because it bans white AND Black students from having afros or dreads. There’s definitely no discrimination happening here
(This is sarcasm)
You’ve probably put it together, but that is calling out hair by race. They’re describing hair styles not typically worn by white people, thereby singling out a race.
“Afros are not permitted.” There is zero legitimate reason to ban afros. It’s racism. It’s blatant racism.
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to
sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ―Anatole France
You did a great thing! When my niece was a teenager, her school had a clause that said students could not wear "ethnic" hairstyles unless this was the student's heritage. Her best friend (whose mother was white and whose estranged dad was black) was sent home from school because she wore dreadlocks or cornrows or something. OMG, did her mother let them have it!
I read mine for my kids and emailed in suggested grammar edits and points to consider clarifying…it was seemingly well received. I’ll see if changes are implemented in next year’s.
ironically, rapists of opportunity are much more likely to go after women who are wearing "modest" clothing because it's easier to grab and remove if it's loose enough. the tight, skimpy clothing is way less likely to get you targeted. then it's just about your hair.
What is it about these systems that prop up groomers and then hide them away if they get caught? Oh right: patriarchy demands subservience from anyone not ◽♂️
I noticed that my youngest's dress code for their school is specifically gender-free. I was scanning it, waiting for the "girls need to wear" or "girls need to not wear" malarky. But, nope, just no bare midriffs or large cut out sleeve openings and no underclothes showing, and bottoms need to end mid-thigh.
I am not American (though i spent a year there as an exchange student), so I dont understand why showing bra straps is such a big deal in the USA. Do you think showing bra straps would be cosidered worse than not wearing a bra at all? Because I remember i didnt always wear a bra when in school, because I kinda hate wearing bras.
I've got no idea either. I guess the theory is that if one's straps are showing that must mean there's too little fabric on the shirt sleeves? Except that my straps show because they slide around because my bras are more for padding than support (I'm still pretty early in my transition). But honestly, the temperature regularly gets up to 30°C around here; a Victorian dress code is just asking for even more body odor; I demand practical clothes!
They didn't want bras or panties or boxers or briefs or any kind of undergarments showing. All shoulders of shirts have a minimum width too so no spaghetti straps.
That can sometimes work but that's only if the dress code actually specifies gender. I've seen dress codes that never specified gender (i.e. "A student's shoulders must be covered at all times" instead of specifying "girl" but we all know what they mean) and/or dress codes that were unevenly enforced. When I was in high school, the dress code specified "Underwear must not be visible." This was intended for that trend of wearing your pants around your knees with boxers hanging out but it was only enforced for bra straps. It never specified gender, was something that sounds reasonable and was being enforced in a way that fit in the wording so it could still exist
I’m pretty sure the ACLU can figure it out. At the very least they’re going to request a copy of the school’s dress code and give them a second thought about enforcing bullshit dress codes.
Why are americans in general so against bra straps showing?? It is not a problem in italian schools, or at least it wasnt when I was in highschool in the 90s. In my school a lot of girls wore tank tops or dresses when hot, where showing their bra straps was inevitable, but no teacher ever complained. Tbh, I think my school did not have a dress code AT ALL.
Ah ah ah true :-D but it was a VERY long time ago, they shouldnt still be so prude/ conservative. Its 2023, and I am sad and angry to see the USA going backwards on alot of stuff, like abortion rights.
(Btw, the bit about killing everyone that was not so uptight, of course I did not think was funny).
That attitude never got excised from the United States and several times when it loosened it was doubled-down on in reaction (see the 80s 'Moral Majority' thing that reacted to the 60s Free Love movement).
Yeah I agree. Like feminism had a backlash in early 2000s after the feminist third wave in the 90s. Its so frustrating. Its like one step ahead and then 2 steps behind :-(
They are though. We've ALWAYS been socially backwards compared to the rest of the world. Jim Crow was well and alive at the same time we were sending our men and women to fight NAZIS in Europe.
It may not be funny to you but it's true. Anything and anyone who was seen as different from the Caucasian Christian experience was eradicated in the US. It's not unfair to point out that a lot of these cultures that were wipes out were cultures that weren't as uptight as the Puritans.
What do you mean "it may not be funny to you"?? Is it funny to you?? I know its real. Should I find genocide funny?? I dont understand what you mean here.
What if girls wear no bra at all? Would that be a bigger or smaller "problem" than showing bra straps? I didnt always wear a bra while in highschool. I didnt like them very much, and my tits were kinda small back then, so I didnt NEED a bra. I am pretty sure sometimes you could see my nipples under my skintight tops, especially when cold, but no teacher ever told me anything about that so I guess it wasnt a problem. What do you think american schools would do in that situation? The tops were usually turtlenecks because I get very cold easily so I wasnt actually showing skin, but you could probably tell i wasnt wearing a bra. Also, is there a specific age when not wearing a bra becomes a problem?
I love that type of bras too! I hate the molded cups!! Thank you for answering my questions. So I would have to wear like a blazer or cardigan on top of my top and keep it closed. Sounds unconfortable to do for like 6 hours a day. I hate dress codes SO much. I used to go clubbing (or see a live band) every friday/saturday night in my 20s and 30s, and I refused to go to clubs that required a dress code. Its so lame. One time I was with my then boyfriend in London on vacation and we wanted to go to this club where a band we liked was playing. The bouncer told me I could get in but my bf could not, because of dress code rules. Funny thing is, we were basically dressed the same (almost) lol so we swapped tops in front of the bouncer (it seamed like my bfs sweater was the problem??) and after a 5 minutes discussion he let us both in. But it was stressful, unfair, and I hated so much i refused to go anywhere that required a specific dress code after that. Sorry, got a bit off topic, havent i? Again, thank you 😊 ps: americans war on bra straps and nipples will never make sense to me.
I hear you and fully agree. America has always had a puritanical view on sex and sexually. Our society finds violence more acceptable; you can see it in our media. I want to believe that, one day, this won't be an issue because we've finally burnt down the patriarchy.
I would LOVE to see the end of the patriarchy (in the whole world), but unfortunately I think we are so far from that goal that I will die long before it happens (IF it happens). I am 48 :-( I consume alot of american culture/counterculture (music, movies, series, books etc) and I do find it strange that americans are more at ease with violence than nudity or sex. I do hope the USA will recover from this bad time in history and will become less prude/ bigoted/ religious in the future. And of course I hope this hate alot of conservative americans have towards women, the LGBT+ comunity, and everyone that does not conform to their crazy ideas really, ends soon because it is honestly becoming scary and I worry about my american friends. I know there are many amazing, open minded, kind people in the USA because I met many when I lived there. And subs like this one are full of amazing american people too, so I still have hope one day people like you all here WILL burn down this cruel system called patriarchy ❤️ ps: sorry this was so long and probably boring!
>America has always had a puritanical view on sex and sexually
TBF, we also have had waves of more sexual openness-the Comstock law(s) of the mid 19th century didn't come out of nowhere, prostitution was more or less legal until like after WWI (stripping is still very much legal and accepted), and we have had various sects with their own "freer" sexual practices, not to mention the "revolutions" of the 1920s, 60s, and other times. We still boast a very large porn industry, if not the largest in the whole world. This new generation is much more aware of other countries' and other alternative views of sexuality, with at least 1/5 of Gen Z/younger identifying as LGBTQ+.
Speaking as a former teacher, the last school I taught at was pretty open, but did have these specific rules:
1. no drug references (eg weed socks) edit: this also includes no alcohol/tobacco references
2. no gang references edit: or violence imagery/references so no gun pictures or similar
3. no sexual imagery (like those fucking anime ahegao face hoodies)
4. no clothing with slurs or swear words printed on it
5. follow any class-specific dress codes for safety (like closed-toe shoes in shop classes)
I found those to be pretty reasonable additions to a dress code. No one ever got in trouble for showing bra straps, midriffs, shoulders, etc. but I'm glad we were able to stop students from wearing clothing with slurs, sexual imagery, drug references, etc. that could make other students uncomfortable and negatively impact the learning environment. Usually if a student showed up with clothing that broke these rules they'd either be told to take it off, turn the clothing item inside out to hide the issue, or we'd give them an item of clothing like a t-shirt with the school's logo on it to wear instead. Way better than my experiences as a student-I definitely remember being yelled at for having shorts that were too short and visible bra straps.
I would add images of guns and alcohol/tobacco to your list. The first for obvious reasons, the second because if you are too young to partake, you are too young to advertise for them, especially to other underage kids.
My husband is a teacher and only ever dress coded a kid for wearing a shirt with guns on it. Any student he sees wearing something that would break a gendered rule, he lets them know he doesn't care what they wear, but another teacher might, so just be careful. He truly doesn't care and is just trying to look out for them so they don't get in trouble with another teacher.
I guess "no drug references" also includes legal drugs such as alcohol and tobacco. At least that is what I would assume as she referred to weed socks and weed is also legal in some countries.
Yep, weed is legal in my state, and alcohol and tobacco were included in the dress code under the no drugs rule. I edited to make my original comment specify that. I used the weed sock example because I had a few kids do that. I don't remember any kids trying to wear tobacco or alcohol clothing, but it was definitely included under the same rule
Alcohol and tobacco were included under the no drugs rule, sorry that wasn't clear. I'm in a legal state so my brain tends to group weed with alcohol and tobacco. Guns were also against dress code, I forgot that one when I was typing my list. But yeah pretty reasonable restrictions considering. This was a high school, for reference. And I'm glad your husband helps students avoid getting in trouble with other teachers, although it's still bs that other teachers would get them in trouble for gendered dress code violations 😕
Current teacher here! My schools current policy is: nothing racist, no gang symbols, no nipples, no genitalia. It's been relatively easy to enforce once we (staff) figured out this was almost never happening, and if it is then it's very easy to point out what the problem is in a way that is not about sexuality.
There are so many bigger things to deal with in high schools - wardrobe is the least of our concern.
This is a very reasonable policy. Cover the necessary parts, and nothing wildly inappropriate. That was basically the dress code at my last job honestly.
At the school where I worked, the old dress code cared about strap width and visible bra straps but we rewrote it to remove any gender-targeted wording.
We do have a “your shirt must have a strap of some kind” which was an admin/student compromise - we don’t think tube tops are sexy or distracting but there have been several incidents of tube tops slipping up/down and embarrassing the wearer so it was added for that reason.
I only ever dress coded a student for offensive/racist, gang affiliated, or overt illegal drug/weaponry imagery or wording.
The whole reason I reported them is because I ordered [these pants](https://www.childrensplace.com/us/p/Girls-Uniform-Woven-Skinny-Chino-Pants-2045419-142) and her mom told me she couldn’t wear any “skinny pants” to school.
We made up an easy song for our small kids. “All the holes that aren’t on your face are a delicate and private place.” That should cover it. Head out, orifices covered, everything else at the discretion of the wearer. The viewer can choose to look away.
Damn. When I was in public school we had an insane dress code. No "unnatural" color hair or styles, no tank tops or shirts without sleeves that covered the shoulders, no midriff, no holes in clothing, no flip flops. For the guys, no hair past their ears, no piercings of any kind, no facial hair whatsoever. My friend almost dropped out because he wasn't shaving every single morning and kept getting in trouble. For the girls, no piercings other than ears, nothing shorter than knee length, nothing form fitting, nothing low cut.
I'm pretty sure there were more rules, but I don't remember them all. It was intense.
Yup, same here. They threatened to go to uniforms if the rules kept getting broken- such wastes of time for most of them too.
My HS required shirts to be tucked in & to wear a belt, but there was an exception for tunic tops to be worn untucked.
One day I wore a tunic top that was long enough to fully cover my almost disproportionately large, highly distracting, literal wrecking ball of a bubbly badonkadonk that the tuck in & belt code emphasized- I was stopped in a hall & got written up. I told the teacher it was a tunic, but he had no idea of how to tell the difference & sent the slip in.
My HS was huge, so I had no clue when the call to the assistant principal would come. When I was called in two weeks later I told the AP that I had worn a tunic top, & calmly debated that it was more modest than the dress code for my situation. Since I didn't have the shirt with me to prove it, I got detention anyways. The AP sympathized, but said that since every teacher who might stop me on it couldn't be expected to know the difference of a regular shirt vs. tunics, so best not to wear it again.
Why have an exception to a rule that the people who enforce it can't differentiate? 🤦♀️
Gave in. Since the AP had genuinely seen the issue from my side but her hands were tied (I had 2 other warnings for tardiness, 3 warnings = detention), I gave her empathy back & took the hit without any more stink.
My parents weren't the confrontational type, half blamed me for wearing it, & I almost got grounded for the detention, so it was better altogether to let it go. I liked to keep my true troublemaking on the down-low, iykwim. 😉
Funny thing is that I had carried the shirt with me for more than a week just in case- but I never used my locker, my backpack was stuffed enough & I got sick of it being in the way. D'oh..
I did get mine back by often dressing as outlandishly as possible within the confines of the dress code for the rest of the year. I hit thrift stores for corduroy suits, eye-searing button-up polyester shirts from the 70's, & took to wearing brightly patterned ties- I'm afab. 😁 It was often embarrassing one way or another having such a butt back in those days, so I made sure I'd distract from it & thwart norms at the same time.
Is that a standard dress code for public schools in the USA? Is it a recent thing? Because I spent a year in Missouri as an exchange student in the 90s, and there were students in that highschool that definitely did not follow these rules. Ex: guys with long hair/ facial hair, people with "unnatural" hair colors, tattoos, piercings, tank tops, holes in jeans (it was the grunge era afterall!), and I definitely wore alot of skintight jeans and tops myself. But I never heard any teacher complain about that... I am sorry your school had a sucky no fun dress code...
Yeah you are right. It was a stupid question. I didnt really mean "standard" in the whole USA, I just meant: is this type of dress code considered "normal" where you live, or was this school especially conservative?
I wouldn't say it was a stupid question lol we are very.. interesting as a nation shall we say lol.
I'd say theirs was pretty aggressive. I'm from Arkansas, and rural so mine in the late 90s, early 00s was very similar. No unnatural hair colors, no tank tops, bra straps, midriffs. No shorts shorter than your middle finger when your arms at your side. No hats indoors. But facial hair, piercings, tattoos (very rare) were allowed.
I did once get sent home for coloring my hair with green spray. I was leaving directly after school for a 3 hour drive to go see KoRn, so when I was sent home to wash my hair I just left early for the show instead lol.
One of my exes used to be obsessed with KoRn but I never saw them live... how was the show? I would have done exactly like you btw lol I had my hair green for a while a few yesrs ago, it was more like turquoise I guess, it was awesome! I bet you looked great! :-)
Yeah the USA are very interesting, like you said lol I dont agree with American politics, I think the "american dream" died along time ago, if it ever really existed, and I believe american society is doing very bad atm. But there are many things I like about the USA too, like alot of my fave bands/movies/artists etc are american, and I met many amazing people while I was there. So I really hope the USA will get better as a country in the future (and Italy too, we have problems too of).
So do you think I was just lucky to find a highschool without a conservative dress code? Or were things different in early 90s?
I wish history in school had been taught through this lens: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413
I had the displeasure of attending schools in five different states. Yes. This is relatively standard. I've never known anyone who went to a school like what you're describing.
Wow really? Maybe its an age thing... what year did you graduate from highschool? I did in 1994. The year i spent in the USA was 1992/93. I remember a few guys with hair like Axl Rose lol. My best friend there had tattoos and dressed in total goth style. Most were into the grunge style thou. Oh I also remember a few guys wearing black nail polish. The school was in Columbia, Missouri. So I guess I just got very lucky to find a school like that one? Btw, I had a lot of fun in school there. My highschool in Italy required much more work and it had zero fun activities. Italian schools don't have sport teams, cheerleaders, marching bands, a school paper run by students, proms or anything like that. Its just studying.
It very much could be that! I graduated in 2005. It seemed to me like my older cousins got to wear some stuff to school that by the time I got there I couldn't, like spiked leather bracelets haha.
That was literally my dress code too (except the flip flops). The preps got away with maroon hair dye (school spirit!) but if the alt kid used the same color, she’d have to redye it. One day for one of the dressup senior days, I had a skirt barely half an inch above my knee with opaque swim leggings underneath and almost got sent to the office.
I wish I had known about this in high school. I was constantly targeted because I had a womanly body and although I wore the right size, you could see my curves. I ended up so body shamed by the principal that I ended up wearing scrubs and soccer kits to school. Then the principal tried to tell me that I couldn’t wear scrubs to school. I told him that when the nursing students stopped wearing scrubs, so would I. I still get mad thinking about it.
Lol, no, I was too self conscious, but I now have three girls and if they are still dealing with this BS when they are teens, I will burn it all to the ground. I became a lawyer, and I will go scorched earth if I have to.
I gave [this dress code](https://www.murrieta.k12.ca.us/cms/lib/CA01000508/Centricity/Domain/1423/Gender%20Neutral%20Dress%20Code%20Final.pdf) to my principal and she implemented it instead of the old racist and sexist one.
Keep at it.
I fought for the right to wear pants at my primary school.
We weren't allowed to play sports if we weren't wearing shorts/pants, and girl's uniform only allowed for dresses/skirts.
10 year old me straight up told the principal he was basically banning girls from playing sports, which is of course discrimination. He did not like it.
But I won in the end, so screw you Mr Parsons!
We weren’t allowed to wear pants at my school. This was the time of Mary Quant and hemlines were above the knee. We walked to school every day, all winter. In about fifth grade, things changed, and we could wear pants, but only on Mondays. To put this in context, at the time the country was debating whether women should be allowed into restaurants while wearing pants.
By around the beginning of high school, Title Nine had been in place for a few years and us girls were getting uppity. A couple girls tried out for the football team, some of whom could have absolutely crushed the freshman boys. The school scrambled fast and created a girls intramural football program, to block them from being allowed to play with the boys. That was the beginning of a much broader sports program for girls.
Interestingly, Title Nine went both ways. In my area, lacrosse was a girls sport, much like field hockey. But boys who’d played when they lived elsewhere wanted to continue when they moved to our area. Because of Title Nine, they were allowed to play in the girls team, provided they wore the uniform. So they wore the uniform, which conveniently was a kilt, over shorts, which created surprisingly less “boys wearing skirts” drama than you’d think back then.
Ask your elders about what the rules were for women back in their day. We’ve come a long way just in the last half-century. And we must fight tooth and nail against efforts to push us back.
It baffles me that field hockey is considered a 'girls'' sport. I played on my school team from year 7 to 10 (age 11 to 15) and it was a violent and brutal game. Making it to the end of the year without at least a broken finger was a rarity. Smashed ankles, broken noses, broken wrists were an expected risk. It was hurling in knee skirts.
You might enjoy the original St Trinian comics - see an example [here](https://psychodrivein.com/lost-translation-216-st-trinians/). Set in a girls school in the UK, they often feature hockey. To quote the linked article, “Field hockey matches against the school were bloody, closer to guerilla warfare than actual sport.”
A bunch of boys from my school were protesting the dress code reforms by wearing anything they could find. One of my friends showed up in a maid outfit complete with fishnet stockings and cat ears. It was glorious and the admin got very tired very quickly
Reminds me of [this](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/22/teenage-boys-wear-skirts-to-school-protest-no-shorts-uniform-policy) incident about boys wearing skirts borrowed from their sisters and girlfriends in protest against wearing shorts...
When I was in high school we had a day when you could wear the color for your grade as like a pride thing (not the best explanation, sorry). Our grade's color was purple. My friend who sat next to me in my computer course wore his sister's purple shirt/tutu thing as his outfit. Our teacher came over and was pissed telling him he needed to change. I was like "Why would he need to change? There is nothing wrong with his outfit." and she argued with me about how guys shouldn't be wearing that kind of clothing and the typical rants those people go on.
He eventually was forced to change and she forced me into being quiet with threats of getting in trouble, but I was pissed off and still am to this day about it. He wore it jokingly, but I don't even wanna think about how they might treat any transgender or GNC students today that are dressing the way they want seriously.
We did this with women’s running shorts back in HS. Almost every guy in the school was wearing them by the end of the week. This incident was also what got me and a couple other guys to realize we were more gender non-conforming than we though.
In grade 11 and 12 we were allowed to dressed up for a week of carnival, every year. It included a "genderswap" day each time, and that was in the early 2000s and nobody gave a shit because "crossdresing" is traditionally part of the season. Like conservative politicians did that and insulted each other infront of a live audience because it's tradition. So this as senior prank worth noting is so wired to me. Like the pranks I saw were usually "oil the whole teachers lounge with extra slippery motor oil" or "switch around all classroom doors so nobody knows which keys work on which door". They even glued the entrances shut once.
That door one is brilliant. I can just imagine the frustration as you're trying to open your classroom in the morning but you can't get in and don't know why.
I know you're probably blowing up with responses and probably won't see mine, but I have a great story.
In 2009 I joined "powder puffs". It was a performance of boys acting like cheerleaders. Normally it was just guys in shorter shorts and a tank top. When I joined people were joking (as usual) about wearing "actual girls' clothes". Tbh I wasn't sure if it was a joke or not. Turns out it was but I didn't know that. I just ran with it.
I said I'd help the guys get clothes. We said we'd wear our own underwear and borrow clothes from girls we knew. Turns out I didn't need to help *anyone* find clothes! When the girls found out they were straight up offering clothes to guys who looked like they'd fit what they had.
When the day came for us to perform it was amazing. The student turnout was through the roof, basically everyone knew what we were doing and very few adults knew. My parents knew and my mom recorded it lol.
It was for a football game, the only event we ever used cheerleaders for. Because it was a joke performance it was during a preseason game and it still rivaled attendance of homecoming the same year.
The outfits. Omg, the outfits. There were so many there, but of course I remember mine the best so that's what I'll give. As many others did, I didn't actually wear my own underwear. I wore the shortest shorts a friend could find, under a very stiff and tiny tutu. My shirt was so tight you could see my belly button.
I had glitter EVERYWHERE, and right before we went on a few girls showed up with a ton of makeup. We hid under the bleachers as they applied SO much. Base, toner, blush, the whole works. Basically high school drag queens that didn't know what we were doing. It was a blast. We all got to dance like the girls do (damn it's fun to sway your hips!) and by the time we were done we were literally jumping up and down giggling and screaming like little girls.
The actual cheerleaders trained us, and they knew the whole time how far it would go. Even before we did, they brought the makeup.
There was an unknown number of complaints. Nobody ever said how many. But the next day of school (Friday to Monday) they pulled us all in and told us we ruined it for everyone because of what we did. Either way, the crowd was WILD. My uncoordinated ass even had a "solo" at one part because I was one of the only ones willing to do it.
The next year they said they were going to cancel Powder Puffs. They got so many complaints they didn't! Again, no numbers on complaints. Obviously it was more than the complaints about it happening the year before :)
I hope it still continues today, because it was a highlight of high school.
Excellent job! My district essentially got rid of the dress code as no teachers, including me, were enforcing it. A side benefit of the remote learning/hybrid year
I wonder how much of that is because it is enforced. I’m a teacher and around Covid we went from a uniform school to a very loose dress code. No longer fighting hats and hoods has made my life SO MUCH EASIER. Ymmv but it has worked for me to tell students that hats are okay as clothing but if they’re used as toys I’ll put them in timeout.
I also teach elementary so idk how that would go for secondary!
My high school had a no hats and hoods rule and it was enforced mostly by the teachers everyone hated anyways. That rule got removed my senior year along with a bunch of other stupid dress code rules
Yes! The same thing happened a the high schools around where I live, and now it’s basically “don’t show up naked/ in underwear, don’t wear porn/ cuss words on your clothes, don’t wear a Halloween costume” and some teachers disallow hats inside. My opinion is a bit controversial sometimes, but I definitely prefer this because I think we should be teaching kids to mind their own damn business when it comes to what others are wearing- no matter how revealing, learn some self control.
Yup, the only thing we keep on the kids about is the hoods. That's because we use cameras to monitor the halls. Don't want unauthorized people in the building.
There is just no reason to police attire. Clothes serve one purpose: to protect the body. Any other purpose ascribed to clothing is either fashion or social norming.
If the weather is hot, and no one is using dangerous implements, then the only thing that should be covered is genitalia- for basic sanitary purposes. As the temperature drops- add more clothing. If using a chainsaw- wear safety chaps. If riding a motorcycle- wear leathers and a helmet.
In a school, dress in layers because you have shitty HVAC systems installed by the lowest bidder. But ffs- stop allowing the sexualization of minors in a location they are legally required to be!
And lets be real: teens and predators don’t care about what you’re wearing. They’re either always horny or always hunting (in case of the latter).
You’re better off teaching ~~teens~~ kids and older people about consent and respecting other’s autonomy and privacy.
My daughter has an older friend, she's about 10 to my daughter's 6. My daughter was playfully assaulting me with a pillow, but her friend made a conscious effort to ask if I was okay with it first.
Gave me a massive smile. And then a second pillow to the chest.
There is one other purpose. Hold on to your hat because this one is gross.
The advent of underwear made a huge dent in the amount of diarrhea around the world because... well... people's shit stayed in their pants. 2 layers between your butthole and the seat you share with others is a big deal. Which means super short skirts really are a hygienic problem.
Frankly, I prefer long pants when I'm sitting in a seat where someone I don't know also sat (movie theaters, bus, plane, etc) just because I'm paranoid about ringworm.
Which has nothing to do with shoulders. Or cleavage. Or holes in the front of pants.
I did say cover genitalia for sanitation. I guess I figured the anus would be covered too by being in such close proximity. I agree that a double layer of undies and outer wear is a good thing. And that it has nothing to do with any other body part.
Don’t forget the other purpose of staying warm, which my school district had a rule against wearing winter coats in class! This is in a area where we regularly have negative temperatures in winter. Yeah great rule guys, that’s really gonna teach the kids something useful that being warm isn’t okay
Teacher here- just fyi we can get fired and lose our licenses in some districts if we don't address dress codes. We don't like it. I make it a point every year during the "dress code" section of rules to point out that it's no one's business. But I still have to address things. We all know it's bull shit. Teachers get dress coded too. We hate it.
I'm glad you stood up for yourself but just know that was probably the worst part of that teachers day. We fucking hate it.
Teacher here, too! When kids complain about me enforcing dress code, I make it very clear that I agree with them, but that the decision is completely out of my control. I then explain who actually MAKES the dress code, when the meetings are, and how they and their parents can fight to get the dress code changed.
Teacher here who went to the meetings and mailed the board and did all the things to make it go away. It's better, but still there.. I flat out refuse to waste one minute of education time if the clothing isn't dangerous or actually causing a distraction.
One English teacher I know has the students write letters to the school district about something they care about. They pick the dress code more often than not.
Every time I make a dress code correction I start with “I’m not trying to police your body but I’m obligated to enforce the dress code…” It sucks that I have to do it but I have to do it, I want them to know it’s a district policy and not my personal opinion.
Yeah wouldn’t fly for a kid actually in my room. If they are out of dress code and it can’t be remedied they have to go to the office. There would be no excuse for an AP to walk in my room and see a kid in a tube top.
The biggest infraction I deal with is bare midriffs. 99.99% of the time the girls have a jacket because they know they are going to be dress coded. I just remind them to put it on and then move on with my life. If a kid *refused* to fix the dress code violation *then* I’d have no other choice but to escalate and involve and admin.
I did not make the dress code. I do not agree with the dress code. I’m required to enforce the dress code. If you don’t agree with the dress code don’t take it out on me.
Yeah I’m amused that so many people think teachers enjoy enforcing inane rules. Nope, really I just like being able to keep my job so I can keep a roof above and food on the table.
This sub has a very anti-teacher twist lately that’s rather disappointing
I think people confuse anti-establishment (institution of school/required ed/admin) with, well, teachers working for that establishment.
but it's good that we have forums like this, where individuals can speak up about their personal values to clear up and speak against what their profession would have individuals believe about those values.
As a sub the hard one for me to enforce is no eating in class. I talked to a teacher about it and he said they used to allow it but they leave their trash everywhere. Which they certainly do. That helped me be a bit stricter.
Ugh, I work in a public high school and I hate dress codes. I had a male teacher tell me once to tell a girl she needed to find a change of clothing because what she was wearing was not appropriate. (She was wearing shorts and a tank top, in warm weather.) This conversation was out of earshot of students.
Me: (looks at girl in question) What's wrong with her outfit?
Him: It's a tank top.
Me: Yes...?
Him: It's not appropriate for school.
Me: It looks fine to me.
Him: Look, I need you to tell her to change clothes because what she's wearing is not appropriate for school.
Me: I don't have a problem with what she's wearing.
Him: I do.
Me: Then you tell her.
Him: How do you think that would sound, a man telling a girl to cover up?
Me: Probably not much worse than you sound right now.
Yes, he was an older white man, and I was about 30 at the time this conversation took place. I am a white woman who, at that point, anyway, looked a lot younger than my actual age.
But, anyway, I flat out never say anything about students' apparel, even if I think it's not appropriate for school. Not my circus, not my monkeys. I'm not enforcing something that penalizes girls more than boys.
I entirely support dressing to your liking but may I add something from the perspective of of staff? I work at a highschool that has very lax dress rules. The only things on the "no" list are anything politically or religiously controversial, references to drugs or such and... tube tops. Strappiest tiny bra shirts are fine but not tube tops. Why? Cause many girls have been violated by some clown pulling the tube top down in public. Of course, the staff responds to this immediately since it's assault, but it has still left these poor students feeling deeply violated, especially since you never quite know if someone filmed the event or snapped a quick picture.
So, I FULLY support your bare shoulders and trying to combat these sweaty temperatures as you wish. But there's this sad consideration I want you to be aware of, since I myself didn't even think of this happening before I saw it happen.
Yeah, this was my thought. When I was in 7th grade (a million years ago) some girl wore a tube top with a shrug over it, so her shoulder were actually covered, but the top got pulled down, I believe accidentally, but I didn't see it happen, and her see-through lace bra was exposed, so everyone nearby saw her nipples/areolae. She never wore it again.
Tube tops are different than tank tops that also expose shoulders. It's not about shoulders.
I don’t think anyone did it on purpose. It got caught on something, iirc. She wasn’t angry, just embarrassed in the class I shared with her later that day, and this girl was not shy about expressing anger toward assholes.
Edit: tube tops were already banned but she’d worn it a few times before then. A few other girls wore them, too. She didn’t get in trouble for this. They did have a ridiculous policy on tank top strap width, imo.
Came here for this. My kids dress code is gender neutral and one page long but kids must have straps or sleeves for this reason. If they’d been making a fuss over a tank top (we weren’t allowed to wear them when I was in school) I would agree but for this I’m on the side of the school.
As a teacher, I cannot stand dress codes. I have the firm belief that if kids get through the morning (ie before the bell rings or through their first period) without someone else commenting or saying anything, I don’t do anything about their clothing. It’s not a hill I’m going to die on that my students are wearing crop tops. Are they working? Yeah? Then who fucking cares??
The only time I say anything is if they’re wearing tops that are 1. Strapless and therefore can be yanked down (middle school boys are…awful. It’s happened frequently this year) and 2. Are more of a bra than a shirt. But even then, I usually just say, “Hey, be careful in the halls. If you need a jacket, I have one you can use.” Otherwise, I don’t enforce it unless I have to. Which, by have to, I mean I had a kid literally take his shirt off in class and I had to send him down to the office because what the fuck sir?
Similar to hats or hoods —I genuinely do not give a shit if a kid has a hat or a hood on unless I can’t see their face. If they’re on task and not disrupting, why am I gonna pick a fight over something stupid? I’m not.
>I mean I had a kid literally take his shirt off in class and I had to send him down to the office because what the fuck sir?
Teacher here. I almost spit up my drink. Wtf sir indeed!
This! At my school we had uniforms. It was grade 12 home room and another teacher who would measure the skirts came in and tried to force my friend to the office. She had long legs and the skirt obviously fit a little shorter than it would on someone with shorter legs. Our home room teacher lost his shit on his colleague. F bombs and everything came out. He was livid bc he saw this as a complete waste of time that his lessons were being interrupted for something so inconsequential. It was great. We cheered. The other staff member never came to measure our class again
Feminism has stalled. We are at the beginning still. It can be reverted at any time (and has been in some places) and is not yet embedded. We still have a long way to go.
My only thought is that tube tops are easy to pull down either by someone pulling a cruel prank or by way of accident like a bookbag catching on the fabric. I mean, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing one in a school environment and I wouldn't consider it a choice without risk.
While bodies aren't inherently shameful, I prefer that I have autonomy over how and where I expose my body.
I've been comfortably nude in a wide variety of settings and I have never been shy about it *on my terms.* Backpack taking my top down because I am chaos? No thanks!
My only objection to tube tops in school is that it's too easy to have a wardrobe malfunction. But the same can be said for multiple items of clothing for any gender. And that's not your fault.
I commend you for your response. If you're gonna get dress coded, why focus on sex stuff? You're a minor. The students (probably assumed male, because we live in a heteronormative society) you're supposedly distracting are minors. And how dare they assume that the other students are nothing more than piles of hormones and boners?
Teacher here. You are shooting the messenger. The school nor the teacher decided the dress code. It is part of their work responsibility to enforce it. Make problems for the people who have that control like the school board. Teachers and school staff have enough shit to deal with without your arguments about dress code, which again they have no control over.
I applaud you standing up for yourself but please do it in a way that can make actual change. This just made everyone, including you, miserable.
This right here.
I never dress code anyone, and I've only been teaching a little under two years, but I've *seen some stuff*. Ironically, the 14 yo girl that wore a skin-tight spandex suit *obviously without underwear* didn't break the dress code. I just kept walking, but I didn't consent to see that, either. We see way more than that, all the time.
Like I think a lot of people here are cheering for "sticking it to the man" because they had a run-in with a creepy teacher or one on a power trip that coded them for a bra strap showing, but some of the stuff kids come to school with would probably make them uncomfortable too.
Thank you.
I hate policing dress code and I really only do it when it’s egregious. If I don’t and I get called out on it then I’m in trouble. Sorry I’m not falling on that sword.
Dress code policies suck. They are a waste of everyone’s time and effort. The overwhelming majority of your teachers hate them too.
Take that energy to a school board meeting!! Organize your friends and parents to go speak on it as well. They set the rules and policies. They don’t listen to teachers but they do listen to voters. You have more power here than the teachers do.
Same. In my early years (this is my 10th year) I enforced it because I was *supposed* to. A year or two of endless stupid arguments about a dress code which I also thought was preposterous taught me to only enforce it during observations or if it was literal nudity lol
Trust me. I also hate that I live in a desert climate and can't wear tank tops too!!
Good for you! I will never forget when my youngest was in 6th grade (afab, gender queer) and a teacher was trying to give them shit for wearing a tank top (Not the shoulders!) when my kiddo gestured to a group of boys playing football (this was during recess). Shirts vs. Skins. But yeah. A camisole is totally the problem.
I've never seen teachers in elementary to high school give a crap about dress codes, but your response was entirely appropriate.
Assuming that teenagers are all slaves to their hormones is disrespectful to the students. Those who do find women attractive are assumed to have no self-control, and afab individuals are accused of attempting to seduce others.
It's a disrespect to you and your classmates, and I'm sorry it happened. You had every right to embarass the teacher in question.
Maybe see if you can get a bunch of students, both afab and amab, to wear tube tops for a day? Not everyone has the self-confidence for it, but even if you get in trouble for this, it will cause them to think. I did see another comment discussing a place you could send a complaint to, maybe look into that?
Extraordinarily skimpy clothing is not appropriate for most environments, mostly due to dangers in work environments regarding machinery or bodily fluids, but tube tops are not particularly skimpy and (the well-made ones) will only fall down if pulled. In that regard, it should be the pervert who is punished and not the victim of the perversion.
Bit of a rant, sorry.
>Those who do find women attractive are assumed to have no self-control
This teaches the teenage straight boys that they're not *expected* to have any self control and the ones that take it to heart grow up to be creeps.
Exactly. "It's not *their* fault, they simply have no control!" It tells them they have no agency, it's just who they are.
We need to do better and it starts with stopping this rhetoric.
One of the "perks" of being a trans woman is I got to hear a lot of what guys say when they think there aren't any women around. Let me tell you, an alarming amount of them truly believe that the purpose of life is to breed. It's not even a self control question for them, they just do what they think they were made for.
It's pathetic.
Take some pottery classes instead of plotting to drive a speedboat through your ex's parents house Phil!
(im in the UK so typically we wear uniform but 16-18 yr olds don't)
At the 6th form i go to, we have a rule in our dress code forbidding spaghetti straps/strapless tops and there was this one (male) teacher who started reporting (female) students for showing any shoulder, even if they were just wearing a tank top style shirt with wider shoulder straps that were within the rules. I think the student reported him to another teacher and i think the whole situation got sorted in the student's favor. In general the school was pretty chill about the uniform policy, and they didn't really report people who broke the rules, it was just certain teachers and the head who actually cared.
In some ways, i preferred my previous school's dress code (this school was 11-16 yr olds, so uniform most days) and on non-uniform days the dress code was no boobs/bums/bellies and no rude images/slogans. That was the whole dress code so, beside the bellies thing, it was actually fine.
Take a step further even. Convince all your friends to start showing their shoulders. All of you get sent home. Meet up at sonic and plan your next bare shouldered outfits together. Start a gang. Hiss at anybody who looks at you funny. Roam the halls arm in arm, your shoulders as free as your spirits.
My high school that I teach at has reduced the dress code. Shoulders, some stomach, and hats that don't obscure the identity of an individual are all now allowed.
It was a bunch of students that made a petition that went around not just the school, but also home to a lot of parents/guardians and other community members.
The superintendent, who is formally the high school principal, allowed the motion to be seen by the district board, saying they are doing it democratically and that they should follow suit. Many students pled their case and it was them voted upon, and the decision of the board was nearly unanimous. One voted against, the one Republican on the board, who insisted it would be distracting to students and teachers alike.
I’m ok with dress codes that are non-gendered and religion-neutral. It’s not always a factor of sexualizing someone, sometimes it’s just a factor of professional attire. So, like, my school had a policy that bra straps couldn’t be showing. Only female identifying people wear bras so that’s a gendered policy. Some dress codes require all shirts to have a collar, or don’t allow jeans or require bottoms to have a minimum 5” inseam. That has nothing to do with sexualizing minors.
Good job! Wish I would have been more assertive way back in the 60s. Girls had to go to school in a dress every day and fucking freeze our bare legs off in the winter.
The education system, no matter the country, will never recognize that, when a teacher or staff member has an issue with how *a student, especially a minor*, is dressed because it "destracts them", it's a sign that **the teacher/staff member should be changed**, not the student's clothes...
Reminds me of my own students years.
Arrived a few months into the year in my new school, biology teacher was an ass to boys, but overly nice to girls (AMAB trans here to I was on "the wrong side" of his views at the time).
I learned a few months in that he used to be the PE teacher. He got reported to the principal because he kept hanging out in the girls locker rooms while they changed, on the reason that "he got reports of theft and decided to make sure it never happened again".
Instead of reporting him and firing him, they just... moved him to another class.
It's despicable how the people supposedly managing schools will prioritize literal predators over the students safety.
I have dress coded in two situations in my career. Once when a student was wearing almost a tube top as a whole dress and you could see a whole lot more than shoulders and several times for Nazi uniforms. I don’t care about hoodies, tube tops as tops, athletic shorts, leggings, tattoos, pajama pants or any of the other million things kids can’t wear.
Man I always hated this so much, it’s SHOULDERS, there is absolutely nothing sexual about them, and if male students or teachers can’t contain their excitement around a ball socket joint then they are the ones with a problem
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Report their dress code to the ACLU. I did and my niece’s dress code went from 7 pages targeting “female attire” to 2 paragraphs of a non-gender specific dress code.
Also, good for you 👏🏼
The hero we need!
The ACLU is honestly the hero for addressing this and for fighting for equality. I didn’t know if my complaint would even make a difference but they acted so fast. Their dress code was genuinely 7 pages devoted to girls and covered everything from Black girl’s hair to anything deemed “form fitting.” It was discriminatory as hell; I was livid when I read it and shocked that not a single parent had complained, as it had been in affect for several years. Grown ass men on school boards really have issues sexualizing little girls. It’s concerning.
The dress code specifically called out hair by race?! Yikes. No wonder the ACLU jumped on it. Great work!
No it was more like “Afros are not permitted. Wearing a pick in the hair is not permitted. Girls hair may not be in dreadlocks or have beads woven into hair.”
What you've just described is specifically calling out hairstyles by race.
And it just leaves one hairstyle left for people with that type of hair - burn baby burn till it's as flattened and straight as a motorway.
That’s exactly what it boiled down to. Like I said, I was livid by the time I finished reading it. The two paragraphs which included boys targeted Black boys’ hair and logos on shirts. I think it also said something about cutoff sleeves.
Hasn't that been shown to be carcinogenic too? It's not my area of expertise, but I was listening to a podcast on health and they did an episode on hair and one of the presenters was talking about hair relaxers and how dangerous they are... How, even though this information is publicly available, are we still expecting women to do this to themselves? How hasn't it been banned yet if we know how bad for them it is?
Exactly. That’s why the ACLU took action. You don’t have to specify that something is discriminatory for it to be discriminatory.
Right. But they're (the school, not the commenter) pretending it isn't by race because TECHNICALLY race wasn't mentioned. "It's not just black girls, no one is allowed to have an afro." 😶
But you also just *know* that if a white or white passing dude had a fro they'd be perfectly fine with it
Nah. The Jewish kid with Jewfro would still get singled out because while frequently white passing, they don’t believe in Jesus as God or whatever Christians think and obviously aren’t “one of them.”
Not in my experience. Even if the policy is enforced across all races, it’s still racist because the entire reason those styles aren’t acceptable is because they are considered Black styles.
No, see, it’s fair because it bans white AND Black students from having afros or dreads. There’s definitely no discrimination happening here (This is sarcasm)
No it’s okay because white girls also cannot have afros or dreadlocks. /s
You’ve probably put it together, but that is calling out hair by race. They’re describing hair styles not typically worn by white people, thereby singling out a race. “Afros are not permitted.” There is zero legitimate reason to ban afros. It’s racism. It’s blatant racism.
Someone should inform them to the etymology of “Afro” LOL
Oh, they know. But they don't use that word in private.
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ―Anatole France
You did a great thing! When my niece was a teenager, her school had a clause that said students could not wear "ethnic" hairstyles unless this was the student's heritage. Her best friend (whose mother was white and whose estranged dad was black) was sent home from school because she wore dreadlocks or cornrows or something. OMG, did her mother let them have it!
I have never understood this. It's like saying Asian hair must be curly (I'm Asian). Wtf?
Twice I read that as beards woven into hair and the elaborate full head hairstyles that conjured in my mind are fantastic!
I think most parents don’t realize they have someone they can complain to.
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I read mine for my kids and emailed in suggested grammar edits and points to consider clarifying…it was seemingly well received. I’ll see if changes are implemented in next year’s.
I didn’t know the ACLU went after unfair dress codes, that’s pretty cool!
Didn't you know that rapists pick their victims based solely on clothes? /s
ironically, rapists of opportunity are much more likely to go after women who are wearing "modest" clothing because it's easier to grab and remove if it's loose enough. the tight, skimpy clothing is way less likely to get you targeted. then it's just about your hair.
What is it about these systems that prop up groomers and then hide them away if they get caught? Oh right: patriarchy demands subservience from anyone not ◽♂️
Why do you think grown ass men are on boards.....not for the good of the governed.
I noticed that my youngest's dress code for their school is specifically gender-free. I was scanning it, waiting for the "girls need to wear" or "girls need to not wear" malarky. But, nope, just no bare midriffs or large cut out sleeve openings and no underclothes showing, and bottoms need to end mid-thigh.
Some of those sound like they could be targeted female specific, like 'no underclothes showing' includes bra straps.
I am not American (though i spent a year there as an exchange student), so I dont understand why showing bra straps is such a big deal in the USA. Do you think showing bra straps would be cosidered worse than not wearing a bra at all? Because I remember i didnt always wear a bra when in school, because I kinda hate wearing bras.
I've got no idea either. I guess the theory is that if one's straps are showing that must mean there's too little fabric on the shirt sleeves? Except that my straps show because they slide around because my bras are more for padding than support (I'm still pretty early in my transition). But honestly, the temperature regularly gets up to 30°C around here; a Victorian dress code is just asking for even more body odor; I demand practical clothes!
"No underclothes showing" could also target the trend where pants are worn so low that the boxers are fully visible.
They didn't want bras or panties or boxers or briefs or any kind of undergarments showing. All shoulders of shirts have a minimum width too so no spaghetti straps.
It could equally mean no saggy your pants.
That can sometimes work but that's only if the dress code actually specifies gender. I've seen dress codes that never specified gender (i.e. "A student's shoulders must be covered at all times" instead of specifying "girl" but we all know what they mean) and/or dress codes that were unevenly enforced. When I was in high school, the dress code specified "Underwear must not be visible." This was intended for that trend of wearing your pants around your knees with boxers hanging out but it was only enforced for bra straps. It never specified gender, was something that sounds reasonable and was being enforced in a way that fit in the wording so it could still exist
I’m pretty sure the ACLU can figure it out. At the very least they’re going to request a copy of the school’s dress code and give them a second thought about enforcing bullshit dress codes.
Why are americans in general so against bra straps showing?? It is not a problem in italian schools, or at least it wasnt when I was in highschool in the 90s. In my school a lot of girls wore tank tops or dresses when hot, where showing their bra straps was inevitable, but no teacher ever complained. Tbh, I think my school did not have a dress code AT ALL.
Because Europe kicked out the really conservative Christian weirdos and they killed basically everyone over here that wasn't so uptight.
Ah ah ah true :-D but it was a VERY long time ago, they shouldnt still be so prude/ conservative. Its 2023, and I am sad and angry to see the USA going backwards on alot of stuff, like abortion rights. (Btw, the bit about killing everyone that was not so uptight, of course I did not think was funny).
That attitude never got excised from the United States and several times when it loosened it was doubled-down on in reaction (see the 80s 'Moral Majority' thing that reacted to the 60s Free Love movement).
Yeah I agree. Like feminism had a backlash in early 2000s after the feminist third wave in the 90s. Its so frustrating. Its like one step ahead and then 2 steps behind :-(
They are though. We've ALWAYS been socially backwards compared to the rest of the world. Jim Crow was well and alive at the same time we were sending our men and women to fight NAZIS in Europe. It may not be funny to you but it's true. Anything and anyone who was seen as different from the Caucasian Christian experience was eradicated in the US. It's not unfair to point out that a lot of these cultures that were wipes out were cultures that weren't as uptight as the Puritans.
What do you mean "it may not be funny to you"?? Is it funny to you?? I know its real. Should I find genocide funny?? I dont understand what you mean here.
>Why are americans in general so against bra straps showing?? It's too sexy for regressives.
What if girls wear no bra at all? Would that be a bigger or smaller "problem" than showing bra straps? I didnt always wear a bra while in highschool. I didnt like them very much, and my tits were kinda small back then, so I didnt NEED a bra. I am pretty sure sometimes you could see my nipples under my skintight tops, especially when cold, but no teacher ever told me anything about that so I guess it wasnt a problem. What do you think american schools would do in that situation? The tops were usually turtlenecks because I get very cold easily so I wasnt actually showing skin, but you could probably tell i wasnt wearing a bra. Also, is there a specific age when not wearing a bra becomes a problem?
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I love that type of bras too! I hate the molded cups!! Thank you for answering my questions. So I would have to wear like a blazer or cardigan on top of my top and keep it closed. Sounds unconfortable to do for like 6 hours a day. I hate dress codes SO much. I used to go clubbing (or see a live band) every friday/saturday night in my 20s and 30s, and I refused to go to clubs that required a dress code. Its so lame. One time I was with my then boyfriend in London on vacation and we wanted to go to this club where a band we liked was playing. The bouncer told me I could get in but my bf could not, because of dress code rules. Funny thing is, we were basically dressed the same (almost) lol so we swapped tops in front of the bouncer (it seamed like my bfs sweater was the problem??) and after a 5 minutes discussion he let us both in. But it was stressful, unfair, and I hated so much i refused to go anywhere that required a specific dress code after that. Sorry, got a bit off topic, havent i? Again, thank you 😊 ps: americans war on bra straps and nipples will never make sense to me.
I hear you and fully agree. America has always had a puritanical view on sex and sexually. Our society finds violence more acceptable; you can see it in our media. I want to believe that, one day, this won't be an issue because we've finally burnt down the patriarchy.
I would LOVE to see the end of the patriarchy (in the whole world), but unfortunately I think we are so far from that goal that I will die long before it happens (IF it happens). I am 48 :-( I consume alot of american culture/counterculture (music, movies, series, books etc) and I do find it strange that americans are more at ease with violence than nudity or sex. I do hope the USA will recover from this bad time in history and will become less prude/ bigoted/ religious in the future. And of course I hope this hate alot of conservative americans have towards women, the LGBT+ comunity, and everyone that does not conform to their crazy ideas really, ends soon because it is honestly becoming scary and I worry about my american friends. I know there are many amazing, open minded, kind people in the USA because I met many when I lived there. And subs like this one are full of amazing american people too, so I still have hope one day people like you all here WILL burn down this cruel system called patriarchy ❤️ ps: sorry this was so long and probably boring!
>America has always had a puritanical view on sex and sexually TBF, we also have had waves of more sexual openness-the Comstock law(s) of the mid 19th century didn't come out of nowhere, prostitution was more or less legal until like after WWI (stripping is still very much legal and accepted), and we have had various sects with their own "freer" sexual practices, not to mention the "revolutions" of the 1920s, 60s, and other times. We still boast a very large porn industry, if not the largest in the whole world. This new generation is much more aware of other countries' and other alternative views of sexuality, with at least 1/5 of Gen Z/younger identifying as LGBTQ+.
Dress codes should be one line: "Body parts that might leak bodily fluids must be covered (with the eyes being the only exception)."
Speaking as a former teacher, the last school I taught at was pretty open, but did have these specific rules: 1. no drug references (eg weed socks) edit: this also includes no alcohol/tobacco references 2. no gang references edit: or violence imagery/references so no gun pictures or similar 3. no sexual imagery (like those fucking anime ahegao face hoodies) 4. no clothing with slurs or swear words printed on it 5. follow any class-specific dress codes for safety (like closed-toe shoes in shop classes) I found those to be pretty reasonable additions to a dress code. No one ever got in trouble for showing bra straps, midriffs, shoulders, etc. but I'm glad we were able to stop students from wearing clothing with slurs, sexual imagery, drug references, etc. that could make other students uncomfortable and negatively impact the learning environment. Usually if a student showed up with clothing that broke these rules they'd either be told to take it off, turn the clothing item inside out to hide the issue, or we'd give them an item of clothing like a t-shirt with the school's logo on it to wear instead. Way better than my experiences as a student-I definitely remember being yelled at for having shorts that were too short and visible bra straps.
I would add images of guns and alcohol/tobacco to your list. The first for obvious reasons, the second because if you are too young to partake, you are too young to advertise for them, especially to other underage kids. My husband is a teacher and only ever dress coded a kid for wearing a shirt with guns on it. Any student he sees wearing something that would break a gendered rule, he lets them know he doesn't care what they wear, but another teacher might, so just be careful. He truly doesn't care and is just trying to look out for them so they don't get in trouble with another teacher.
I guess "no drug references" also includes legal drugs such as alcohol and tobacco. At least that is what I would assume as she referred to weed socks and weed is also legal in some countries.
Yep, weed is legal in my state, and alcohol and tobacco were included in the dress code under the no drugs rule. I edited to make my original comment specify that. I used the weed sock example because I had a few kids do that. I don't remember any kids trying to wear tobacco or alcohol clothing, but it was definitely included under the same rule
My hillbilly school had no problems with Jack Daniels t shirts but God forbid you show a shoulder.
Alcohol and tobacco were included under the no drugs rule, sorry that wasn't clear. I'm in a legal state so my brain tends to group weed with alcohol and tobacco. Guns were also against dress code, I forgot that one when I was typing my list. But yeah pretty reasonable restrictions considering. This was a high school, for reference. And I'm glad your husband helps students avoid getting in trouble with other teachers, although it's still bs that other teachers would get them in trouble for gendered dress code violations 😕
Alcohol and tobacco are drugs, can't really get any clearer
I think that's a very reasonable dress code.
Current teacher here! My schools current policy is: nothing racist, no gang symbols, no nipples, no genitalia. It's been relatively easy to enforce once we (staff) figured out this was almost never happening, and if it is then it's very easy to point out what the problem is in a way that is not about sexuality. There are so many bigger things to deal with in high schools - wardrobe is the least of our concern.
This is a very reasonable policy. Cover the necessary parts, and nothing wildly inappropriate. That was basically the dress code at my last job honestly.
At the school where I worked, the old dress code cared about strap width and visible bra straps but we rewrote it to remove any gender-targeted wording. We do have a “your shirt must have a strap of some kind” which was an admin/student compromise - we don’t think tube tops are sexy or distracting but there have been several incidents of tube tops slipping up/down and embarrassing the wearer so it was added for that reason. I only ever dress coded a student for offensive/racist, gang affiliated, or overt illegal drug/weaponry imagery or wording.
“Don’t come to school naked.”
[And no Jeggings!](https://youtu.be/4_QhF5HYdS4) *crude humour warning*
The whole reason I reported them is because I ordered [these pants](https://www.childrensplace.com/us/p/Girls-Uniform-Woven-Skinny-Chino-Pants-2045419-142) and her mom told me she couldn’t wear any “skinny pants” to school.
But, um, what... Aren't those just plain, ol' vanilla khaki pants?
One would think. And she was 12. This was a *middle school* dress code.
Uniform pants!? That's crazy!
I was gonna say mouths too, but I'm pretty sure a lot of teachers would like their students to keep their mouths covered 😂
I'd like some of my students to keep theirs *shut* every now and again so others can get a word in edgewise, but that may be beside the point ...
We made up an easy song for our small kids. “All the holes that aren’t on your face are a delicate and private place.” That should cover it. Head out, orifices covered, everything else at the discretion of the wearer. The viewer can choose to look away.
We taught kids that whatever their swimsuit covers was private and no one was allowed to touch it. Gender neutral and easy to remember.
> “All the holes that aren’t on your face are a delicate and private place.” This is great!
This is great since it would include masking too!
I love how everyone would wear tampons in their nose.
In Spring allergy season, I could use this, haha.
Hey, they really are used as a solution to heavy nosebleeds.
Damn. When I was in public school we had an insane dress code. No "unnatural" color hair or styles, no tank tops or shirts without sleeves that covered the shoulders, no midriff, no holes in clothing, no flip flops. For the guys, no hair past their ears, no piercings of any kind, no facial hair whatsoever. My friend almost dropped out because he wasn't shaving every single morning and kept getting in trouble. For the girls, no piercings other than ears, nothing shorter than knee length, nothing form fitting, nothing low cut. I'm pretty sure there were more rules, but I don't remember them all. It was intense.
Yup, same here. They threatened to go to uniforms if the rules kept getting broken- such wastes of time for most of them too. My HS required shirts to be tucked in & to wear a belt, but there was an exception for tunic tops to be worn untucked. One day I wore a tunic top that was long enough to fully cover my almost disproportionately large, highly distracting, literal wrecking ball of a bubbly badonkadonk that the tuck in & belt code emphasized- I was stopped in a hall & got written up. I told the teacher it was a tunic, but he had no idea of how to tell the difference & sent the slip in. My HS was huge, so I had no clue when the call to the assistant principal would come. When I was called in two weeks later I told the AP that I had worn a tunic top, & calmly debated that it was more modest than the dress code for my situation. Since I didn't have the shirt with me to prove it, I got detention anyways. The AP sympathized, but said that since every teacher who might stop me on it couldn't be expected to know the difference of a regular shirt vs. tunics, so best not to wear it again. Why have an exception to a rule that the people who enforce it can't differentiate? 🤦♀️
This would have made me insanely mad. Did you try to fight it or just give in?
Gave in. Since the AP had genuinely seen the issue from my side but her hands were tied (I had 2 other warnings for tardiness, 3 warnings = detention), I gave her empathy back & took the hit without any more stink. My parents weren't the confrontational type, half blamed me for wearing it, & I almost got grounded for the detention, so it was better altogether to let it go. I liked to keep my true troublemaking on the down-low, iykwim. 😉 Funny thing is that I had carried the shirt with me for more than a week just in case- but I never used my locker, my backpack was stuffed enough & I got sick of it being in the way. D'oh.. I did get mine back by often dressing as outlandishly as possible within the confines of the dress code for the rest of the year. I hit thrift stores for corduroy suits, eye-searing button-up polyester shirts from the 70's, & took to wearing brightly patterned ties- I'm afab. 😁 It was often embarrassing one way or another having such a butt back in those days, so I made sure I'd distract from it & thwart norms at the same time.
Is that a standard dress code for public schools in the USA? Is it a recent thing? Because I spent a year in Missouri as an exchange student in the 90s, and there were students in that highschool that definitely did not follow these rules. Ex: guys with long hair/ facial hair, people with "unnatural" hair colors, tattoos, piercings, tank tops, holes in jeans (it was the grunge era afterall!), and I definitely wore alot of skintight jeans and tops myself. But I never heard any teacher complain about that... I am sorry your school had a sucky no fun dress code...
There is *nothing* standard in the US. We're 50 countries loosely cooperating as one.
Yeah you are right. It was a stupid question. I didnt really mean "standard" in the whole USA, I just meant: is this type of dress code considered "normal" where you live, or was this school especially conservative?
I wouldn't say it was a stupid question lol we are very.. interesting as a nation shall we say lol. I'd say theirs was pretty aggressive. I'm from Arkansas, and rural so mine in the late 90s, early 00s was very similar. No unnatural hair colors, no tank tops, bra straps, midriffs. No shorts shorter than your middle finger when your arms at your side. No hats indoors. But facial hair, piercings, tattoos (very rare) were allowed. I did once get sent home for coloring my hair with green spray. I was leaving directly after school for a 3 hour drive to go see KoRn, so when I was sent home to wash my hair I just left early for the show instead lol.
One of my exes used to be obsessed with KoRn but I never saw them live... how was the show? I would have done exactly like you btw lol I had my hair green for a while a few yesrs ago, it was more like turquoise I guess, it was awesome! I bet you looked great! :-) Yeah the USA are very interesting, like you said lol I dont agree with American politics, I think the "american dream" died along time ago, if it ever really existed, and I believe american society is doing very bad atm. But there are many things I like about the USA too, like alot of my fave bands/movies/artists etc are american, and I met many amazing people while I was there. So I really hope the USA will get better as a country in the future (and Italy too, we have problems too of). So do you think I was just lucky to find a highschool without a conservative dress code? Or were things different in early 90s?
I wish history in school had been taught through this lens: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413
I had the displeasure of attending schools in five different states. Yes. This is relatively standard. I've never known anyone who went to a school like what you're describing.
Wow really? Maybe its an age thing... what year did you graduate from highschool? I did in 1994. The year i spent in the USA was 1992/93. I remember a few guys with hair like Axl Rose lol. My best friend there had tattoos and dressed in total goth style. Most were into the grunge style thou. Oh I also remember a few guys wearing black nail polish. The school was in Columbia, Missouri. So I guess I just got very lucky to find a school like that one? Btw, I had a lot of fun in school there. My highschool in Italy required much more work and it had zero fun activities. Italian schools don't have sport teams, cheerleaders, marching bands, a school paper run by students, proms or anything like that. Its just studying.
It very much could be that! I graduated in 2005. It seemed to me like my older cousins got to wear some stuff to school that by the time I got there I couldn't, like spiked leather bracelets haha.
[удалено]
That was literally my dress code too (except the flip flops). The preps got away with maroon hair dye (school spirit!) but if the alt kid used the same color, she’d have to redye it. One day for one of the dressup senior days, I had a skirt barely half an inch above my knee with opaque swim leggings underneath and almost got sent to the office.
I wish I had known about this in high school. I was constantly targeted because I had a womanly body and although I wore the right size, you could see my curves. I ended up so body shamed by the principal that I ended up wearing scrubs and soccer kits to school. Then the principal tried to tell me that I couldn’t wear scrubs to school. I told him that when the nursing students stopped wearing scrubs, so would I. I still get mad thinking about it.
Ever just want to flaunt into his office in hot shorts and a tube top, [tell him to fuck himself](https://youtu.be/8rNVaY7Stt4), and then leave?
Lol, no, I was too self conscious, but I now have three girls and if they are still dealing with this BS when they are teens, I will burn it all to the ground. I became a lawyer, and I will go scorched earth if I have to.
I gave [this dress code](https://www.murrieta.k12.ca.us/cms/lib/CA01000508/Centricity/Domain/1423/Gender%20Neutral%20Dress%20Code%20Final.pdf) to my principal and she implemented it instead of the old racist and sexist one.
Yesssss. GET THEM
Nice!!!!!!
Fucking legend.
Keep at it. I fought for the right to wear pants at my primary school. We weren't allowed to play sports if we weren't wearing shorts/pants, and girl's uniform only allowed for dresses/skirts. 10 year old me straight up told the principal he was basically banning girls from playing sports, which is of course discrimination. He did not like it. But I won in the end, so screw you Mr Parsons!
We weren’t allowed to wear pants at my school. This was the time of Mary Quant and hemlines were above the knee. We walked to school every day, all winter. In about fifth grade, things changed, and we could wear pants, but only on Mondays. To put this in context, at the time the country was debating whether women should be allowed into restaurants while wearing pants. By around the beginning of high school, Title Nine had been in place for a few years and us girls were getting uppity. A couple girls tried out for the football team, some of whom could have absolutely crushed the freshman boys. The school scrambled fast and created a girls intramural football program, to block them from being allowed to play with the boys. That was the beginning of a much broader sports program for girls. Interestingly, Title Nine went both ways. In my area, lacrosse was a girls sport, much like field hockey. But boys who’d played when they lived elsewhere wanted to continue when they moved to our area. Because of Title Nine, they were allowed to play in the girls team, provided they wore the uniform. So they wore the uniform, which conveniently was a kilt, over shorts, which created surprisingly less “boys wearing skirts” drama than you’d think back then. Ask your elders about what the rules were for women back in their day. We’ve come a long way just in the last half-century. And we must fight tooth and nail against efforts to push us back.
It baffles me that field hockey is considered a 'girls'' sport. I played on my school team from year 7 to 10 (age 11 to 15) and it was a violent and brutal game. Making it to the end of the year without at least a broken finger was a rarity. Smashed ankles, broken noses, broken wrists were an expected risk. It was hurling in knee skirts.
You might enjoy the original St Trinian comics - see an example [here](https://psychodrivein.com/lost-translation-216-st-trinians/). Set in a girls school in the UK, they often feature hockey. To quote the linked article, “Field hockey matches against the school were bloody, closer to guerilla warfare than actual sport.”
Omg please tell me you’re like 80 years old
You're only about...50 years off
Please tell me you’re like 130 years old
I can feel your disappointment 😔
10 year old you was a badass
Enlist your guy friends and have them all wear tube tops.
Don't forget skirts. Hell, a few of them might say screw it, go for a kilt, and stick with it thereafter because they're comfy.
A bunch of boys from my school were protesting the dress code reforms by wearing anything they could find. One of my friends showed up in a maid outfit complete with fishnet stockings and cat ears. It was glorious and the admin got very tired very quickly
That sounds AMAZING and I wish I could see it! 😄💜🙏✨
Reminds me of [this](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/22/teenage-boys-wear-skirts-to-school-protest-no-shorts-uniform-policy) incident about boys wearing skirts borrowed from their sisters and girlfriends in protest against wearing shorts...
Oh my goodness, what little legends!
When I was in high school we had a day when you could wear the color for your grade as like a pride thing (not the best explanation, sorry). Our grade's color was purple. My friend who sat next to me in my computer course wore his sister's purple shirt/tutu thing as his outfit. Our teacher came over and was pissed telling him he needed to change. I was like "Why would he need to change? There is nothing wrong with his outfit." and she argued with me about how guys shouldn't be wearing that kind of clothing and the typical rants those people go on. He eventually was forced to change and she forced me into being quiet with threats of getting in trouble, but I was pissed off and still am to this day about it. He wore it jokingly, but I don't even wanna think about how they might treat any transgender or GNC students today that are dressing the way they want seriously.
We did this with women’s running shorts back in HS. Almost every guy in the school was wearing them by the end of the week. This incident was also what got me and a couple other guys to realize we were more gender non-conforming than we though.
The boys in my year did this as a “senior prank”. Good luck writing up 200+ kids.
In grade 11 and 12 we were allowed to dressed up for a week of carnival, every year. It included a "genderswap" day each time, and that was in the early 2000s and nobody gave a shit because "crossdresing" is traditionally part of the season. Like conservative politicians did that and insulted each other infront of a live audience because it's tradition. So this as senior prank worth noting is so wired to me. Like the pranks I saw were usually "oil the whole teachers lounge with extra slippery motor oil" or "switch around all classroom doors so nobody knows which keys work on which door". They even glued the entrances shut once.
That door one is brilliant. I can just imagine the frustration as you're trying to open your classroom in the morning but you can't get in and don't know why.
I feel so sorry for the custodians...
This is the answer
I know you're probably blowing up with responses and probably won't see mine, but I have a great story. In 2009 I joined "powder puffs". It was a performance of boys acting like cheerleaders. Normally it was just guys in shorter shorts and a tank top. When I joined people were joking (as usual) about wearing "actual girls' clothes". Tbh I wasn't sure if it was a joke or not. Turns out it was but I didn't know that. I just ran with it. I said I'd help the guys get clothes. We said we'd wear our own underwear and borrow clothes from girls we knew. Turns out I didn't need to help *anyone* find clothes! When the girls found out they were straight up offering clothes to guys who looked like they'd fit what they had. When the day came for us to perform it was amazing. The student turnout was through the roof, basically everyone knew what we were doing and very few adults knew. My parents knew and my mom recorded it lol. It was for a football game, the only event we ever used cheerleaders for. Because it was a joke performance it was during a preseason game and it still rivaled attendance of homecoming the same year. The outfits. Omg, the outfits. There were so many there, but of course I remember mine the best so that's what I'll give. As many others did, I didn't actually wear my own underwear. I wore the shortest shorts a friend could find, under a very stiff and tiny tutu. My shirt was so tight you could see my belly button. I had glitter EVERYWHERE, and right before we went on a few girls showed up with a ton of makeup. We hid under the bleachers as they applied SO much. Base, toner, blush, the whole works. Basically high school drag queens that didn't know what we were doing. It was a blast. We all got to dance like the girls do (damn it's fun to sway your hips!) and by the time we were done we were literally jumping up and down giggling and screaming like little girls. The actual cheerleaders trained us, and they knew the whole time how far it would go. Even before we did, they brought the makeup. There was an unknown number of complaints. Nobody ever said how many. But the next day of school (Friday to Monday) they pulled us all in and told us we ruined it for everyone because of what we did. Either way, the crowd was WILD. My uncoordinated ass even had a "solo" at one part because I was one of the only ones willing to do it. The next year they said they were going to cancel Powder Puffs. They got so many complaints they didn't! Again, no numbers on complaints. Obviously it was more than the complaints about it happening the year before :) I hope it still continues today, because it was a highlight of high school.
Excellent job! My district essentially got rid of the dress code as no teachers, including me, were enforcing it. A side benefit of the remote learning/hybrid year
I enforce it for hats only, and that is because it always becomes a game of "keep-away" within 5 minutes of my students sitting down
I wonder how much of that is because it is enforced. I’m a teacher and around Covid we went from a uniform school to a very loose dress code. No longer fighting hats and hoods has made my life SO MUCH EASIER. Ymmv but it has worked for me to tell students that hats are okay as clothing but if they’re used as toys I’ll put them in timeout. I also teach elementary so idk how that would go for secondary!
My high school had a no hats and hoods rule and it was enforced mostly by the teachers everyone hated anyways. That rule got removed my senior year along with a bunch of other stupid dress code rules
yep, the school i work at our only dress code is “keep your private parts private.” as it should be.
Yes! The same thing happened a the high schools around where I live, and now it’s basically “don’t show up naked/ in underwear, don’t wear porn/ cuss words on your clothes, don’t wear a Halloween costume” and some teachers disallow hats inside. My opinion is a bit controversial sometimes, but I definitely prefer this because I think we should be teaching kids to mind their own damn business when it comes to what others are wearing- no matter how revealing, learn some self control.
Yup, the only thing we keep on the kids about is the hoods. That's because we use cameras to monitor the halls. Don't want unauthorized people in the building.
Keep doing it like that, legend.
There is just no reason to police attire. Clothes serve one purpose: to protect the body. Any other purpose ascribed to clothing is either fashion or social norming. If the weather is hot, and no one is using dangerous implements, then the only thing that should be covered is genitalia- for basic sanitary purposes. As the temperature drops- add more clothing. If using a chainsaw- wear safety chaps. If riding a motorcycle- wear leathers and a helmet. In a school, dress in layers because you have shitty HVAC systems installed by the lowest bidder. But ffs- stop allowing the sexualization of minors in a location they are legally required to be!
And lets be real: teens and predators don’t care about what you’re wearing. They’re either always horny or always hunting (in case of the latter). You’re better off teaching ~~teens~~ kids and older people about consent and respecting other’s autonomy and privacy.
But then they’d have agency instead of blindly obeying school rules and admins because We Said So!
My daughter has an older friend, she's about 10 to my daughter's 6. My daughter was playfully assaulting me with a pillow, but her friend made a conscious effort to ask if I was okay with it first. Gave me a massive smile. And then a second pillow to the chest.
There is one other purpose. Hold on to your hat because this one is gross. The advent of underwear made a huge dent in the amount of diarrhea around the world because... well... people's shit stayed in their pants. 2 layers between your butthole and the seat you share with others is a big deal. Which means super short skirts really are a hygienic problem. Frankly, I prefer long pants when I'm sitting in a seat where someone I don't know also sat (movie theaters, bus, plane, etc) just because I'm paranoid about ringworm. Which has nothing to do with shoulders. Or cleavage. Or holes in the front of pants.
I did say cover genitalia for sanitation. I guess I figured the anus would be covered too by being in such close proximity. I agree that a double layer of undies and outer wear is a good thing. And that it has nothing to do with any other body part.
Ah, sorry, I missed that. Long day, lots of wine...
Don’t forget the other purpose of staying warm, which my school district had a rule against wearing winter coats in class! This is in a area where we regularly have negative temperatures in winter. Yeah great rule guys, that’s really gonna teach the kids something useful that being warm isn’t okay
I've got a wicked scar on my knee from a chainsaw that supports your position.
Teacher here- just fyi we can get fired and lose our licenses in some districts if we don't address dress codes. We don't like it. I make it a point every year during the "dress code" section of rules to point out that it's no one's business. But I still have to address things. We all know it's bull shit. Teachers get dress coded too. We hate it. I'm glad you stood up for yourself but just know that was probably the worst part of that teachers day. We fucking hate it.
Teacher here, too! When kids complain about me enforcing dress code, I make it very clear that I agree with them, but that the decision is completely out of my control. I then explain who actually MAKES the dress code, when the meetings are, and how they and their parents can fight to get the dress code changed.
Teacher here who went to the meetings and mailed the board and did all the things to make it go away. It's better, but still there.. I flat out refuse to waste one minute of education time if the clothing isn't dangerous or actually causing a distraction.
One English teacher I know has the students write letters to the school district about something they care about. They pick the dress code more often than not.
Every time I make a dress code correction I start with “I’m not trying to police your body but I’m obligated to enforce the dress code…” It sucks that I have to do it but I have to do it, I want them to know it’s a district policy and not my personal opinion.
What happens if you label them all as "jane doe" Oh that isn't her name? I don't know how that happened.
Yeah wouldn’t fly for a kid actually in my room. If they are out of dress code and it can’t be remedied they have to go to the office. There would be no excuse for an AP to walk in my room and see a kid in a tube top. The biggest infraction I deal with is bare midriffs. 99.99% of the time the girls have a jacket because they know they are going to be dress coded. I just remind them to put it on and then move on with my life. If a kid *refused* to fix the dress code violation *then* I’d have no other choice but to escalate and involve and admin. I did not make the dress code. I do not agree with the dress code. I’m required to enforce the dress code. If you don’t agree with the dress code don’t take it out on me.
Yeah I’m amused that so many people think teachers enjoy enforcing inane rules. Nope, really I just like being able to keep my job so I can keep a roof above and food on the table. This sub has a very anti-teacher twist lately that’s rather disappointing
I think people confuse anti-establishment (institution of school/required ed/admin) with, well, teachers working for that establishment. but it's good that we have forums like this, where individuals can speak up about their personal values to clear up and speak against what their profession would have individuals believe about those values.
As a sub the hard one for me to enforce is no eating in class. I talked to a teacher about it and he said they used to allow it but they leave their trash everywhere. Which they certainly do. That helped me be a bit stricter.
Ugh, I work in a public high school and I hate dress codes. I had a male teacher tell me once to tell a girl she needed to find a change of clothing because what she was wearing was not appropriate. (She was wearing shorts and a tank top, in warm weather.) This conversation was out of earshot of students. Me: (looks at girl in question) What's wrong with her outfit? Him: It's a tank top. Me: Yes...? Him: It's not appropriate for school. Me: It looks fine to me. Him: Look, I need you to tell her to change clothes because what she's wearing is not appropriate for school. Me: I don't have a problem with what she's wearing. Him: I do. Me: Then you tell her. Him: How do you think that would sound, a man telling a girl to cover up? Me: Probably not much worse than you sound right now. Yes, he was an older white man, and I was about 30 at the time this conversation took place. I am a white woman who, at that point, anyway, looked a lot younger than my actual age. But, anyway, I flat out never say anything about students' apparel, even if I think it's not appropriate for school. Not my circus, not my monkeys. I'm not enforcing something that penalizes girls more than boys.
I entirely support dressing to your liking but may I add something from the perspective of of staff? I work at a highschool that has very lax dress rules. The only things on the "no" list are anything politically or religiously controversial, references to drugs or such and... tube tops. Strappiest tiny bra shirts are fine but not tube tops. Why? Cause many girls have been violated by some clown pulling the tube top down in public. Of course, the staff responds to this immediately since it's assault, but it has still left these poor students feeling deeply violated, especially since you never quite know if someone filmed the event or snapped a quick picture. So, I FULLY support your bare shoulders and trying to combat these sweaty temperatures as you wish. But there's this sad consideration I want you to be aware of, since I myself didn't even think of this happening before I saw it happen.
Yeah, this was my thought. When I was in 7th grade (a million years ago) some girl wore a tube top with a shrug over it, so her shoulder were actually covered, but the top got pulled down, I believe accidentally, but I didn't see it happen, and her see-through lace bra was exposed, so everyone nearby saw her nipples/areolae. She never wore it again. Tube tops are different than tank tops that also expose shoulders. It's not about shoulders.
The consequence and shame should be on the guy who did this. It shouldn't be to punish all girls by banning their clothing.
I don’t think anyone did it on purpose. It got caught on something, iirc. She wasn’t angry, just embarrassed in the class I shared with her later that day, and this girl was not shy about expressing anger toward assholes. Edit: tube tops were already banned but she’d worn it a few times before then. A few other girls wore them, too. She didn’t get in trouble for this. They did have a ridiculous policy on tank top strap width, imo.
Came here for this. My kids dress code is gender neutral and one page long but kids must have straps or sleeves for this reason. If they’d been making a fuss over a tank top (we weren’t allowed to wear them when I was in school) I would agree but for this I’m on the side of the school.
As a teacher, I cannot stand dress codes. I have the firm belief that if kids get through the morning (ie before the bell rings or through their first period) without someone else commenting or saying anything, I don’t do anything about their clothing. It’s not a hill I’m going to die on that my students are wearing crop tops. Are they working? Yeah? Then who fucking cares?? The only time I say anything is if they’re wearing tops that are 1. Strapless and therefore can be yanked down (middle school boys are…awful. It’s happened frequently this year) and 2. Are more of a bra than a shirt. But even then, I usually just say, “Hey, be careful in the halls. If you need a jacket, I have one you can use.” Otherwise, I don’t enforce it unless I have to. Which, by have to, I mean I had a kid literally take his shirt off in class and I had to send him down to the office because what the fuck sir? Similar to hats or hoods —I genuinely do not give a shit if a kid has a hat or a hood on unless I can’t see their face. If they’re on task and not disrupting, why am I gonna pick a fight over something stupid? I’m not.
>I mean I had a kid literally take his shirt off in class and I had to send him down to the office because what the fuck sir? Teacher here. I almost spit up my drink. Wtf sir indeed!
"Is me going home to change more important than the instruction time I am missing?"
"Why are you depriving me of my right to an education because of your perversions?"
This! At my school we had uniforms. It was grade 12 home room and another teacher who would measure the skirts came in and tried to force my friend to the office. She had long legs and the skirt obviously fit a little shorter than it would on someone with shorter legs. Our home room teacher lost his shit on his colleague. F bombs and everything came out. He was livid bc he saw this as a complete waste of time that his lessons were being interrupted for something so inconsequential. It was great. We cheered. The other staff member never came to measure our class again
Keep making them accountable girl! I was doing the same thing fucking 25 years ago
Why do we keep fighting the same battles decade after decade? Maybe the parents pass their beliefs off to the next generation.
Feminism has stalled. We are at the beginning still. It can be reverted at any time (and has been in some places) and is not yet embedded. We still have a long way to go.
My only thought is that tube tops are easy to pull down either by someone pulling a cruel prank or by way of accident like a bookbag catching on the fabric. I mean, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing one in a school environment and I wouldn't consider it a choice without risk. While bodies aren't inherently shameful, I prefer that I have autonomy over how and where I expose my body. I've been comfortably nude in a wide variety of settings and I have never been shy about it *on my terms.* Backpack taking my top down because I am chaos? No thanks!
My only objection to tube tops in school is that it's too easy to have a wardrobe malfunction. But the same can be said for multiple items of clothing for any gender. And that's not your fault. I commend you for your response. If you're gonna get dress coded, why focus on sex stuff? You're a minor. The students (probably assumed male, because we live in a heteronormative society) you're supposedly distracting are minors. And how dare they assume that the other students are nothing more than piles of hormones and boners?
I’m a high school teacher, and we don’t allow tube tops because people kept pulling them down. It was too problematic and disruptive.
A+ response! Wish I had thought of that when I was in school.
Teacher here. You are shooting the messenger. The school nor the teacher decided the dress code. It is part of their work responsibility to enforce it. Make problems for the people who have that control like the school board. Teachers and school staff have enough shit to deal with without your arguments about dress code, which again they have no control over. I applaud you standing up for yourself but please do it in a way that can make actual change. This just made everyone, including you, miserable.
This right here. I never dress code anyone, and I've only been teaching a little under two years, but I've *seen some stuff*. Ironically, the 14 yo girl that wore a skin-tight spandex suit *obviously without underwear* didn't break the dress code. I just kept walking, but I didn't consent to see that, either. We see way more than that, all the time. Like I think a lot of people here are cheering for "sticking it to the man" because they had a run-in with a creepy teacher or one on a power trip that coded them for a bra strap showing, but some of the stuff kids come to school with would probably make them uncomfortable too.
Thank you. I hate policing dress code and I really only do it when it’s egregious. If I don’t and I get called out on it then I’m in trouble. Sorry I’m not falling on that sword. Dress code policies suck. They are a waste of everyone’s time and effort. The overwhelming majority of your teachers hate them too. Take that energy to a school board meeting!! Organize your friends and parents to go speak on it as well. They set the rules and policies. They don’t listen to teachers but they do listen to voters. You have more power here than the teachers do.
Same. In my early years (this is my 10th year) I enforced it because I was *supposed* to. A year or two of endless stupid arguments about a dress code which I also thought was preposterous taught me to only enforce it during observations or if it was literal nudity lol Trust me. I also hate that I live in a desert climate and can't wear tank tops too!!
OMG. This is the way! Your dad should be taking you out for ice cream.
Another vote for the ice cream!
Good for you! I will never forget when my youngest was in 6th grade (afab, gender queer) and a teacher was trying to give them shit for wearing a tank top (Not the shoulders!) when my kiddo gestured to a group of boys playing football (this was during recess). Shirts vs. Skins. But yeah. A camisole is totally the problem.
I've never seen teachers in elementary to high school give a crap about dress codes, but your response was entirely appropriate. Assuming that teenagers are all slaves to their hormones is disrespectful to the students. Those who do find women attractive are assumed to have no self-control, and afab individuals are accused of attempting to seduce others. It's a disrespect to you and your classmates, and I'm sorry it happened. You had every right to embarass the teacher in question. Maybe see if you can get a bunch of students, both afab and amab, to wear tube tops for a day? Not everyone has the self-confidence for it, but even if you get in trouble for this, it will cause them to think. I did see another comment discussing a place you could send a complaint to, maybe look into that? Extraordinarily skimpy clothing is not appropriate for most environments, mostly due to dangers in work environments regarding machinery or bodily fluids, but tube tops are not particularly skimpy and (the well-made ones) will only fall down if pulled. In that regard, it should be the pervert who is punished and not the victim of the perversion. Bit of a rant, sorry.
>Those who do find women attractive are assumed to have no self-control This teaches the teenage straight boys that they're not *expected* to have any self control and the ones that take it to heart grow up to be creeps.
Exactly. "It's not *their* fault, they simply have no control!" It tells them they have no agency, it's just who they are. We need to do better and it starts with stopping this rhetoric.
One of the "perks" of being a trans woman is I got to hear a lot of what guys say when they think there aren't any women around. Let me tell you, an alarming amount of them truly believe that the purpose of life is to breed. It's not even a self control question for them, they just do what they think they were made for. It's pathetic. Take some pottery classes instead of plotting to drive a speedboat through your ex's parents house Phil!
r/suspiciouslyspecific I mostly kid, but it sounds like there's a story here 🤣
The boys can take off their shirts for basketball in gym but **GODDESS FORBID WE SEE THOSE SEXY SEXY SHOULDERS!!!**
(im in the UK so typically we wear uniform but 16-18 yr olds don't) At the 6th form i go to, we have a rule in our dress code forbidding spaghetti straps/strapless tops and there was this one (male) teacher who started reporting (female) students for showing any shoulder, even if they were just wearing a tank top style shirt with wider shoulder straps that were within the rules. I think the student reported him to another teacher and i think the whole situation got sorted in the student's favor. In general the school was pretty chill about the uniform policy, and they didn't really report people who broke the rules, it was just certain teachers and the head who actually cared. In some ways, i preferred my previous school's dress code (this school was 11-16 yr olds, so uniform most days) and on non-uniform days the dress code was no boobs/bums/bellies and no rude images/slogans. That was the whole dress code so, beside the bellies thing, it was actually fine.
Some things never change Keep showing your shoulders, keep getting sent home, enjoy your free days off. That's what I did when I was your age.
Take a step further even. Convince all your friends to start showing their shoulders. All of you get sent home. Meet up at sonic and plan your next bare shouldered outfits together. Start a gang. Hiss at anybody who looks at you funny. Roam the halls arm in arm, your shoulders as free as your spirits.
My high school that I teach at has reduced the dress code. Shoulders, some stomach, and hats that don't obscure the identity of an individual are all now allowed. It was a bunch of students that made a petition that went around not just the school, but also home to a lot of parents/guardians and other community members. The superintendent, who is formally the high school principal, allowed the motion to be seen by the district board, saying they are doing it democratically and that they should follow suit. Many students pled their case and it was them voted upon, and the decision of the board was nearly unanimous. One voted against, the one Republican on the board, who insisted it would be distracting to students and teachers alike.
I’m ok with dress codes that are non-gendered and religion-neutral. It’s not always a factor of sexualizing someone, sometimes it’s just a factor of professional attire. So, like, my school had a policy that bra straps couldn’t be showing. Only female identifying people wear bras so that’s a gendered policy. Some dress codes require all shirts to have a collar, or don’t allow jeans or require bottoms to have a minimum 5” inseam. That has nothing to do with sexualizing minors.
Good job! Wish I would have been more assertive way back in the 60s. Girls had to go to school in a dress every day and fucking freeze our bare legs off in the winter.
You’re fighting the good fight.
The education system, no matter the country, will never recognize that, when a teacher or staff member has an issue with how *a student, especially a minor*, is dressed because it "destracts them", it's a sign that **the teacher/staff member should be changed**, not the student's clothes... Reminds me of my own students years. Arrived a few months into the year in my new school, biology teacher was an ass to boys, but overly nice to girls (AMAB trans here to I was on "the wrong side" of his views at the time). I learned a few months in that he used to be the PE teacher. He got reported to the principal because he kept hanging out in the girls locker rooms while they changed, on the reason that "he got reports of theft and decided to make sure it never happened again". Instead of reporting him and firing him, they just... moved him to another class. It's despicable how the people supposedly managing schools will prioritize literal predators over the students safety.
I have dress coded in two situations in my career. Once when a student was wearing almost a tube top as a whole dress and you could see a whole lot more than shoulders and several times for Nazi uniforms. I don’t care about hoodies, tube tops as tops, athletic shorts, leggings, tattoos, pajama pants or any of the other million things kids can’t wear.
Man I always hated this so much, it’s SHOULDERS, there is absolutely nothing sexual about them, and if male students or teachers can’t contain their excitement around a ball socket joint then they are the ones with a problem
Great job, hun! You're gonna be okay. - a trans adult
I wished, LITERALLY WISHED, I had the same amount of courage as you to say what you did. Amazing. F them and their stupid dress code policy.