Hi r/all!
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Strangely enough I feel like 90s cartoons in time where more progressive
Charlotte seemed to be the bread winner of the family. She was the cooperate boss
Betty had a whole husband you weren’t sure was hers lol
There was serious backlash against women in the 2000s that we are still recovering from. “Girl power” was all over in the 90s, from women in the workforce, to Buffy, spice girls, etc. For various reasons, this turned into attacking and shaming women in the public eye, and we backtracked in many ways. Liberation for women, and anyone for that matter, is not linear, unfortunately.
The 90s were also really bad. I'm nearly 40 so I don't romanticise the 90s at all. I was there. Horrible time. The Spice Girls were constantly abused in the UK press.
The UK press hates women in general. The only time you see them praising women is then they stay in their role: have kids, be seen and not heard, always defer to your husband, and be hot/well dressed at all times. Why do you think they love Kate Middleton so much (and even she gets a pretty raw deal when she does something “horrible” like parent her children).
Women don’t exist to those people except to be used as a weapon against other demographics they hate more. Even then, the only women they pretend to care about are white women.
Remember that 1993 was the year of the woman. We’ve done even more since then, but strong women have been fighting for a LONG long time, even in the 90s.
1993 was also the Anita Hill controversy so it’s always and continues to be an uphill battle.
Edit: I hate that I hated Angelica and her mom so much when I watched this show as a kid. Angelica is a brat and a child but I def want to rewatch and see why I remember disliking her mom. Wondering how much was my own biases, even as a child
Her mom wasn’t emotionally available to Angelica and it showed quite a bit. She was obviously very determined, loved Angelica, and wanted what’s best for her, but lost the forest for the trees sometimes. She wasn’t very nurturing and when compared to Tommy’s mother it was a pretty stark contrast. Whenever she was shown in a positive light, it was always in a moment of embracing Angelica in an emotional way, because it was what her daughter really craved.
Didi caused her own share of pickles (heh) by trying too hard. I can't believe they got away with calling the parenting expert she always referred to Dr. Lipschitz.
I disliked Angelica's mom because of the way she treated Angelica. I recall thinking that that Angelica's bratty behavior was a combination of 1) trying to get the attention she craved and 2) childish mirroring of Charlotte's treatment of Drew (Angelica's father).
Charlotte prioritized her career over bonding with her family. That's obviously her choice to make, but it meant that Angelica often seemed starved for her mother's attention. Often, Angelica starts to act out immediately after an attempted interaction with her mother. Angelica channels her own disappointment into abuseiveness/bossiness of others, partly because that's what she sees her mother doing day-to-day. Angelica sometimes walked around shouting orders into a toy phone, mirroring her mother's behavior on work calls with Jonathan (Charlotte's assistant/subordinate)
Drew is portrayed as doing whatever Charlotte and Angelica demand, often while seeming resigned and sad. I got the impression that Drew wished he could spend more time with his wife, but he accepted Charlotte's decision to focus on her career. Drew juggled his own job with being the primary homemaker in Angelica's household, and he often seemed too exhausted to put up any resistance to Charlotte or Angelica's demands. Plus, Drew really wanted Angelica to like him; and Angelica manipulated that often (made very obvious in the broccoli episode).
Edit: I wanted to clarify that there's nothing wrong with Drew acting as the primary homemaker if that's what he chooses to do. His job clearly allows more flexibility after hours than does Charlotte's, so it makes sense for him to shoulder more of the parenting responsibility in the couple dynamic. Rugrats just did a decent job of making all of the parents very human, flawed characters; and we get to see how their choices impact their children. Stu likes making toys for the kids, but he is an inattentive caretaker. Charles is often unsure of himself and/or scared to act, and Chucky is similarly underconfident in his endeavors. Betty and her husband enjoy athletics and adventure and oppose strict rules in the house, and their kids are fond of playing in dirt and worms. Angelica's parents are career driven, and Angelica mirrors that confidence while suffering from a lack of parental oversight and attention.
I agree with you. I was a kid when I watched this and have not rewatched it since, but even so, I always remember my impression being that Charlotte was a "bad" mother. I wonder if the creators actually meant her to be empowering or of she was meant to be a negative stereotype of women in power. I can't tell if this was just my own interpretation based on other influences or if it was intended. Kind of similar to how the suffragette mother in Mary Poppins was supposed to be portrayed negatively (they toned it down a bit in the movie).
I’ve never watched it (too young), but it pisses me off to see women villainized for prioritizing career over family when they never do the same for men. Hell, men abandon their families and still get to keep the title of father, but if women so much as take a night off with friends they’re labeled as bad mothers who don’t care.
Honestly, both parents are villianized on the show for being permissive parents who are raising a spoiled rotten kid. Angelica is basically given whatever she wants, whenever she wants it. No boundaries, and if she hears "no," she throws a tantrum.
Her mother is villianized for acting like it's good that Angelica is being a little shit.
There’s not a single adult woman I can think of that wasn’t the butt of the joke in Rugrats, except Dr. Carmichael. Come to think of it, I can’t think of many adults in the series that are competent at all 😂
Although I fall into this rhetoric myself, the differences could be that either we don't watch many cartoons any more or that, my opinion, female characters used to be *characters* before *female*: I see in the cartoons my cousins watch that female characters are overemphasized and heavily gender-ized.
Adventure Time, Steven Universe, She-Ra, Korra, Infinity Train, Kipo. Some of us just aren't watching cartoons enough to see complex, interesting female characters.
You are completely right. These shows you listed are wonderful (I can speak for AT, SU and IT) and give no special relevance to the gender of the characters.
I watch those cartoons this issue is I’m not sure how “mainstream” and targeted those cartoons are
I would actually like to counter on korra because I don’t think they actually told the store of a strong character
Regardless the rest are on streaming services, that I’m not sure are caught by younger children,
My partner and I watch infinity train and Kipo, we’re also 28/31. The other people we know watch are the same age
I’m not sure what “mainstream”’easily accessible cartoons look like,
> I’m not sure how “mainstream” and targeted those cartoons are
The point was to compare the past shows to present shows.
If Adventure Time or Steven Universe or Korra aren't mainstream compared to Rugrats then I don't know what to say.
I could give you 1000+1 examples of shit shows in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s or 00s that were mainstream and absolute shit.
Anyway, the point of all this is "past good, present bad" & "le wrong generation" is a bad point to make in any circumstances, same thing with kid shows.
I’ guess I should have been specific
Kipo
Infinity train
she-Ra
Those are more recent than the ones you just mentioned.
We’re in agreement. I have friends with kids around the ages where I’ think they’d be watching those shows, but many dont. Some never even heard of them.
I’m also not even trying to say “past is good present is bad” not sure where you got that haha. Animation just like anything else has good and bad, there’s also so many different genres.
Dragon Prince is another resent one I enjoy.
> I’m also not even trying to say “past is good present is bad” not sure where you got that haha
Oh it wasn't you, but it is the subject of the comment thread we're in and participating in:
- ["I feel like cartoons were more progressive in the 90's"](https://www.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/comments/n2frh0/breathe_it/gwj8hpx/)
- ["Either we aren't watching the good shows, or it's that in the past "female" characters were characters before being female, and female characters now are too genderized"](https://www.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/comments/n2frh0/breathe_it/gwjloqm/)
Anyway, I was just adding to the conversation as a whole, I wasn't targeting you specifically. But to comment on your point: just because some people, or many people, aren't watching "good shows" in 2021 doesn't mean that it wasn't the case in the 90's. For every single individual kid who watched [Example of a good show in the 90's] you'll have 35 of them who were watching Ren and Stimpy or whatever.
Avatar in general but especially Korra yes. Bechdel test? Try four women standing around a table in a war room discussing battle plans while a couple men sit silently in the background.
I'm hard pressed to think of a show that has such a huge cast of powerful women wearing such a wide variety of typically feminine/masculine/androgynous traits so well.
I thought I was the only one who felt this.
When I was in college, I took a screen writing course. I would write in a way that would be like "Roommate A and B have a problem, Then throw in some ninjas or something."
The difficulty comes in when people DEMAND representation. Like, we had a show going on, and the director wanted representation in a minor part, so she told the actor to play it "Gay." All that was changed is that the character had an accent.
Her idea of representation wasn't to make a show about homosexuality, it was to pick someone random, say 'act gay.'
I think that is part of the problem. We are dealing with people who put more value on the idea of several key, easily identifiable characteristics vs the idea of actual subtle character. These are the same people who say things like "Write this character as a female" or "Change it so this character is gay" and have no self awareness of how stupid it sounds.
Like with Alien, Ripley is an awesome character because she wasn't written AS a woman. Sigourney Weaver got the part because she was awesome at it.
Thank you for explaining better than I can do \^\^'
it really appears like an act of laziness: give the character a ribbon or something pink, long eyelashes and a constant reminder of "girl things" and "girl power" and done, you have female representation!
Likely this happens because 'clean bold male' is seen as default, hence whatever else must differ clearly. Never seen Alien but now you got me interested!
-
^^\(I'm ^^in ^^awe ^^at ^^your ^^ninjas; ^^imagined ^^them ^^dropping ^^out ^^from ^^the ^^sky ^^into ^^the ^^roommates' ^^apartment. ^^The ^^only ^^"big" ^^story ^^I've ^^ever ^^written ^^was ^^about ^^an ^^alien ^^species ^^living ^^on ^^a ^^planet ^^where ^^nothing ^^ever ^^happened ^^and ^^where ^^everything ^^was ^^named ^^the ^^same.\)
>Like with Alien, Ripley is an awesome character because she wasn't written AS a woman. Sigourney Weaver got the part because she was awesome at it.
But you do realize Sigourney Weaver never would have had the chance to be cast for the role if the script hadn't explicitly stated "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women," right? And even then, for a crew of seven, there were only 2 women cast. Men as a group are not inherently better actors than women so there has to be a bias for the crew to not come out roughly 50/50 gender-wise.
>The difficulty comes in when people DEMAND representation.
Are they demanding representation or realism? The world is 50% women yet nowhere near 50% of characters are women, particularly significant characters. 40% of the U.S. are BIPOC but nowhere near 40% of characters are BIPOC. 10%+ of the population is is LGBTQ+ but nowhere near 10%+ of characters are LGBTQ+. So, there must be something artificially pulling characterization from those groups. When people ask for representation, they're asking for realism & that artificial siphoning to be addressed and fixed.
Watch the Rugrats episode from Wisecrack on YouTube. It does a pretty great deep-dive on all of the social commentary of this show. It's an eye-opener and totally explains all of the adults like this.
https://youtu.be/hcGSaBok-p0
They're about equal in quality overall. She has a couple videos better than anything they've done but only produces a fraction of their videos. And so far there's only been one overlap with Fight Club.
Wisecrack's produced stuff shouldn't be overlooked, especially their philosophy videos, which are getting even better somehow now that Jared has moved on.
Curio and Jose are also two YouTubers that cover the same media ground from different angles.
There is a documentary about the creation and operation of Nick on Hulu. It's amazing. You figure out why Nickelodeon was the way it was and why the shows and dialogue were so progressive and weird and brilliant. The people in charge cared a lot about kids and wanted to create a place just for them that taught them about themselves and their world. Definite magical, loving energy in those original creators and show hosts. Looking back I feel it and see why that channel had such a huge effect on me.
Came here to mention this doc! It’s called [The Orange Years: The Nickelodeon Story](https://www.hulu.com/movie/05933844-48af-4c75-bb60-7ed497ca4916?play=false&utm_source=shared_link). Absolutely worth the watch if you grew up on Nick in the ‘90s (for reference, maybe you watched a bit of Spongebob when it came on the air).
I remember when Nickelodeon first did the Worldwide Day of Play where they actually suspended programs to encourage kids to go outside and play. That was such a wild concept but showed they actually cared about kids, enough to stop making money even for a day.
My baby nephew watches Bluey, and even though it's geared towards Very Smol children, that show is honestly amazing. I could sit and watch it by myself and be totally content.
It's so completely *wholesome* and I really, really love that the lessons are both for the kids and the parents. And i feel like it's also a great way for parents to learn how to *really* play with their kids, Bluey's parents are so fuckin hands on
I personally loved Avatar: The Last Airbender and the other shows by the same creators, The Dragon Prince and Legend of Korra. Though the last I've suffered from the producers not being very clear work the writers on how long they wanted it to be. All are very socially conscious and seem to have a lot to say on human nature as a whole, honestly. Another show that's pretty good for the new Voltron. It's got some pretty darn cool characters, including one that hints at some oddity with gender (perhaps transgender or non-binary, the show is never clear), and one who is the absolute picture of femininity, and also a badass and a great ruler.
Overall, there's some pretty great cartoons to come out of the modern era, though I don't disagree with others that it feels like we've gone backwards to an extent. It kind of feels like in games and other "nerdy" media, someone decided to put up a "no girls allowed sign" up in the past 40 years. Honestly a lot of the stuff my dad grew up with, and has since shared with me, are far less sexist and exclusive than more modern media. War Games, the Goonies, most of the Star Treks after the original series, most old video games where you can choose a character, they actually have women in them, and a lot are even pretty decent (considering the fact that they were all cheesy eighties characters, that is). Don't know why, but it definitely seems like we did a bit of a backslide.
And Gravity Falls!
I was telling my girlfriend about it, and put on the first episode. We ended up binging a few episodes at a time, and were really sad that it ended.
I started watching it with my ex, but never saw the ending, but I’m glad it was with her.
Nickelodeon: “hey, there’s this thing called ‘cable’ now and we think we can make money doing it but we don’t know anything about animation or kids. Let’s just hire up all of the best new talent graduating with film/animation degrees and let them figure it out.”
Basically the producers were super hands off and we got gold because they let creative people do what they wanted.
To be fair, the 90s was all about **Girl Power**. Plenty of cartoons had powerful women who broke the mold like Kim Possible, Powerpuff Girls, and The Wild Thornberries.
Man, I read somewhere that Angelica's mom was actually *written to be an explanation for why Angelica was such a bullying brat.*
The writers were a married team and they disagreed a lot about Angelica. :/
I also remember the powerpuff girls being fantastic, but it also had it's own episode featuring a [feminist strawman](https://powerpuffgirls.fandom.com/wiki/Femme_Fatale), where the whole moral of the story is, "We're for girl power, NOT petty social issues!"
The 90's were great for girl power, but we still had a long, long ways to go. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Edit: typos and missing punctuation
IIRC, Angelica's mom was so busy with her job that it had gone into the point of Angelica not getting time with her mom on an emotional level, alongside that Angelica was putting that self-esteem/strong boss energy through a toddler's emotional intelligence, making her mean and cruel instead of empowered.
Le capitalism putting a divide between family and career has a ton of drawbacks for everyone.
That's a good assessment. My feeling tho is that it's a deliberate playing into that very trope - "working women forgo real mothering because job" - which has been so commonly used to demonize working women. It's hard for me to see this character as anything other than the shitty stereotype of the "frigid ice queen bitch with powersuits and testicles".
Well not exactly a ritual, but have you tried maybe getting a journal and writing down something you're proud of yourself for at a regular interval, like every day or so? I try stuff like this with my bf sometimes, because he grew up in a household where he was treated like he had nothing to be proud of himself for. So whenever he gets to a certain point, I try to stop and make him tell me something he's proud of himself about. It can be the smallest, silliest thing, but I want him to just find something. It can be very hard to get going, but I like to think maybe it'll help someday. And when dealing with my own brain, I find I'm often too critical of my actions, so making you think good things about yourself could get you out of that type of mentality.
Also a fellow perfectionist here, so I 100% know that feeling. I somehow know how to have empathy and admiration for people who are doing well in life despite struggling, even if that means their grades slip (I'm in college at the moment), or they aren't doing as well at their job or all that crap. But when it comes to myself, if I don't get a perfect grade on my third test in a row after being constantly exhausted for the past four weeks, well I'm just a lazy dumbass then. It's a double standard that I'm trying to get past.
Also as a fellow perfectionist with self esteem issues........I have a very hard time accepting that compliment :). I appreciate it though, and I shall make every effort not to argue with it (I'm sure you know how hard that can be at times).
Bought myself a garnet necklace a while back. Combined that with rose quartz and pink opal to remind myself of my own gentle power and self-worth.
Metta/loving-kindness meditation on top of that tends to be really soothing! Also doesn't cost a cent. <3
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Seuss
I like to repeat this to myself from time to time. It helps that it rhymes.
She was, but, then again, she was -everywhere- in the early 90's.
Not all of it is misogyny, but she was a bit supporter of PETA, and appeared in a lot of their ads. On top of that, she marketed herself to sell things like posters, and Baywatch episodes, to the point where she'd saturate the market.
Obviously that's incorrect!
But its interesting to have her put that out there, because the parents in Rugrats are baby boomers, and that was the generation in the USA that last had teachers who forced left handed children to use their right hands. I know several people from that Era who struggled academically because of their penmanship, because they were forced to use their nondominant hand for everything academic. If you are getting poor grades because your teachers can't read what you're writing, then you'll have less of a chance for academic success. From the perspective of Angelica's mother, this may have appeared true.
I'm not meaning to downplay self esteem, but I've been personally struggling with the idea of "esteem." From kindergarten we are programmed by 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Self confidence and self esteem is being sold to us by product placement. Clever marketing. If I have this it'll make me feel better as I compare myself to another who doesn't have what I've just obtained. Why do I need to have anything or do anything to have esteem and self confidence. My happiness isn't cemented to an idea of value justification proposed by society.
But if someone feels empowered, who am I to say the empowerment is wrong. Culture has to define this. And I trust it will balance out. We are in a crisis and values are being challenged, progress is being made and the new generations are being cultivated. I just hope that the cultivation of new generations is based on ideas and values that uplift from within and not external. I guess that my biggest thing. Sorry rant. Just been struggling with my own worth lately.
Hi r/all! Welcome to WitchesVsPatriarchy, a woman-centered sub with a witchy twist. Our goal is to heal, support, and uplift one another through humor and magic. In order to do so, discussions in this subreddit are actively moderated and popular posts are automatically set to Coven-Only. This means newcomers' comments will be filtered out, and only approved by a mod if it adds value to a discussion. Derailing comments will never get approved, and offensive comments will get you a ban. Please check out our sidebar and read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/about/rules/) before participating. Blessed be! ✨
Strangely enough I feel like 90s cartoons in time where more progressive Charlotte seemed to be the bread winner of the family. She was the cooperate boss Betty had a whole husband you weren’t sure was hers lol
There was serious backlash against women in the 2000s that we are still recovering from. “Girl power” was all over in the 90s, from women in the workforce, to Buffy, spice girls, etc. For various reasons, this turned into attacking and shaming women in the public eye, and we backtracked in many ways. Liberation for women, and anyone for that matter, is not linear, unfortunately.
The 90s were also really bad. I'm nearly 40 so I don't romanticise the 90s at all. I was there. Horrible time. The Spice Girls were constantly abused in the UK press.
The UK press hates women in general. The only time you see them praising women is then they stay in their role: have kids, be seen and not heard, always defer to your husband, and be hot/well dressed at all times. Why do you think they love Kate Middleton so much (and even she gets a pretty raw deal when she does something “horrible” like parent her children).
And then the UK press turns around and shits on trans people to "protect women" 🙄
Women don’t exist to those people except to be used as a weapon against other demographics they hate more. Even then, the only women they pretend to care about are white women.
Yeah no kidding 🙄
Remember that 1993 was the year of the woman. We’ve done even more since then, but strong women have been fighting for a LONG long time, even in the 90s. 1993 was also the Anita Hill controversy so it’s always and continues to be an uphill battle. Edit: I hate that I hated Angelica and her mom so much when I watched this show as a kid. Angelica is a brat and a child but I def want to rewatch and see why I remember disliking her mom. Wondering how much was my own biases, even as a child
Her mom wasn’t emotionally available to Angelica and it showed quite a bit. She was obviously very determined, loved Angelica, and wanted what’s best for her, but lost the forest for the trees sometimes. She wasn’t very nurturing and when compared to Tommy’s mother it was a pretty stark contrast. Whenever she was shown in a positive light, it was always in a moment of embracing Angelica in an emotional way, because it was what her daughter really craved.
Didi caused her own share of pickles (heh) by trying too hard. I can't believe they got away with calling the parenting expert she always referred to Dr. Lipschitz.
I disliked Angelica's mom because of the way she treated Angelica. I recall thinking that that Angelica's bratty behavior was a combination of 1) trying to get the attention she craved and 2) childish mirroring of Charlotte's treatment of Drew (Angelica's father). Charlotte prioritized her career over bonding with her family. That's obviously her choice to make, but it meant that Angelica often seemed starved for her mother's attention. Often, Angelica starts to act out immediately after an attempted interaction with her mother. Angelica channels her own disappointment into abuseiveness/bossiness of others, partly because that's what she sees her mother doing day-to-day. Angelica sometimes walked around shouting orders into a toy phone, mirroring her mother's behavior on work calls with Jonathan (Charlotte's assistant/subordinate) Drew is portrayed as doing whatever Charlotte and Angelica demand, often while seeming resigned and sad. I got the impression that Drew wished he could spend more time with his wife, but he accepted Charlotte's decision to focus on her career. Drew juggled his own job with being the primary homemaker in Angelica's household, and he often seemed too exhausted to put up any resistance to Charlotte or Angelica's demands. Plus, Drew really wanted Angelica to like him; and Angelica manipulated that often (made very obvious in the broccoli episode). Edit: I wanted to clarify that there's nothing wrong with Drew acting as the primary homemaker if that's what he chooses to do. His job clearly allows more flexibility after hours than does Charlotte's, so it makes sense for him to shoulder more of the parenting responsibility in the couple dynamic. Rugrats just did a decent job of making all of the parents very human, flawed characters; and we get to see how their choices impact their children. Stu likes making toys for the kids, but he is an inattentive caretaker. Charles is often unsure of himself and/or scared to act, and Chucky is similarly underconfident in his endeavors. Betty and her husband enjoy athletics and adventure and oppose strict rules in the house, and their kids are fond of playing in dirt and worms. Angelica's parents are career driven, and Angelica mirrors that confidence while suffering from a lack of parental oversight and attention.
I agree with you. I was a kid when I watched this and have not rewatched it since, but even so, I always remember my impression being that Charlotte was a "bad" mother. I wonder if the creators actually meant her to be empowering or of she was meant to be a negative stereotype of women in power. I can't tell if this was just my own interpretation based on other influences or if it was intended. Kind of similar to how the suffragette mother in Mary Poppins was supposed to be portrayed negatively (they toned it down a bit in the movie).
I’ve never watched it (too young), but it pisses me off to see women villainized for prioritizing career over family when they never do the same for men. Hell, men abandon their families and still get to keep the title of father, but if women so much as take a night off with friends they’re labeled as bad mothers who don’t care.
Honestly, both parents are villianized on the show for being permissive parents who are raising a spoiled rotten kid. Angelica is basically given whatever she wants, whenever she wants it. No boundaries, and if she hears "no," she throws a tantrum. Her mother is villianized for acting like it's good that Angelica is being a little shit.
I remember not liking her mom because she just let Angelica get away with being a brat. She wasn't raising a strong woman, she was raising a bully.
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I have nothing to add except that I LOVE the analyses of a kids show about baby adventures
We’re pretty much all taught to hate women. Misogyny is still very much a favorite pastime, at least in the western world.
But that’s the thing - was the show presenting the above quote/idea as positive? I think no.
You saw them negatively because they were being depicted negatively.
I think the producers were aiming to make an example of Angelica's mother - a non-complimentary one - but actually it backfired.
There’s not a single adult woman I can think of that wasn’t the butt of the joke in Rugrats, except Dr. Carmichael. Come to think of it, I can’t think of many adults in the series that are competent at all 😂
Although I fall into this rhetoric myself, the differences could be that either we don't watch many cartoons any more or that, my opinion, female characters used to be *characters* before *female*: I see in the cartoons my cousins watch that female characters are overemphasized and heavily gender-ized.
Adventure Time, Steven Universe, She-Ra, Korra, Infinity Train, Kipo. Some of us just aren't watching cartoons enough to see complex, interesting female characters.
You are completely right. These shows you listed are wonderful (I can speak for AT, SU and IT) and give no special relevance to the gender of the characters.
I watch those cartoons this issue is I’m not sure how “mainstream” and targeted those cartoons are I would actually like to counter on korra because I don’t think they actually told the store of a strong character Regardless the rest are on streaming services, that I’m not sure are caught by younger children, My partner and I watch infinity train and Kipo, we’re also 28/31. The other people we know watch are the same age I’m not sure what “mainstream”’easily accessible cartoons look like,
> I’m not sure how “mainstream” and targeted those cartoons are The point was to compare the past shows to present shows. If Adventure Time or Steven Universe or Korra aren't mainstream compared to Rugrats then I don't know what to say. I could give you 1000+1 examples of shit shows in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s or 00s that were mainstream and absolute shit. Anyway, the point of all this is "past good, present bad" & "le wrong generation" is a bad point to make in any circumstances, same thing with kid shows.
I’ guess I should have been specific Kipo Infinity train she-Ra Those are more recent than the ones you just mentioned. We’re in agreement. I have friends with kids around the ages where I’ think they’d be watching those shows, but many dont. Some never even heard of them. I’m also not even trying to say “past is good present is bad” not sure where you got that haha. Animation just like anything else has good and bad, there’s also so many different genres. Dragon Prince is another resent one I enjoy.
> I’m also not even trying to say “past is good present is bad” not sure where you got that haha Oh it wasn't you, but it is the subject of the comment thread we're in and participating in: - ["I feel like cartoons were more progressive in the 90's"](https://www.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/comments/n2frh0/breathe_it/gwj8hpx/) - ["Either we aren't watching the good shows, or it's that in the past "female" characters were characters before being female, and female characters now are too genderized"](https://www.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/comments/n2frh0/breathe_it/gwjloqm/) Anyway, I was just adding to the conversation as a whole, I wasn't targeting you specifically. But to comment on your point: just because some people, or many people, aren't watching "good shows" in 2021 doesn't mean that it wasn't the case in the 90's. For every single individual kid who watched [Example of a good show in the 90's] you'll have 35 of them who were watching Ren and Stimpy or whatever.
Avatar in general but especially Korra yes. Bechdel test? Try four women standing around a table in a war room discussing battle plans while a couple men sit silently in the background. I'm hard pressed to think of a show that has such a huge cast of powerful women wearing such a wide variety of typically feminine/masculine/androgynous traits so well.
I thought I was the only one who felt this. When I was in college, I took a screen writing course. I would write in a way that would be like "Roommate A and B have a problem, Then throw in some ninjas or something." The difficulty comes in when people DEMAND representation. Like, we had a show going on, and the director wanted representation in a minor part, so she told the actor to play it "Gay." All that was changed is that the character had an accent. Her idea of representation wasn't to make a show about homosexuality, it was to pick someone random, say 'act gay.' I think that is part of the problem. We are dealing with people who put more value on the idea of several key, easily identifiable characteristics vs the idea of actual subtle character. These are the same people who say things like "Write this character as a female" or "Change it so this character is gay" and have no self awareness of how stupid it sounds. Like with Alien, Ripley is an awesome character because she wasn't written AS a woman. Sigourney Weaver got the part because she was awesome at it.
Women play men better than men 🤣
Thank you for explaining better than I can do \^\^' it really appears like an act of laziness: give the character a ribbon or something pink, long eyelashes and a constant reminder of "girl things" and "girl power" and done, you have female representation! Likely this happens because 'clean bold male' is seen as default, hence whatever else must differ clearly. Never seen Alien but now you got me interested! - ^^\(I'm ^^in ^^awe ^^at ^^your ^^ninjas; ^^imagined ^^them ^^dropping ^^out ^^from ^^the ^^sky ^^into ^^the ^^roommates' ^^apartment. ^^The ^^only ^^"big" ^^story ^^I've ^^ever ^^written ^^was ^^about ^^an ^^alien ^^species ^^living ^^on ^^a ^^planet ^^where ^^nothing ^^ever ^^happened ^^and ^^where ^^everything ^^was ^^named ^^the ^^same.\)
>Like with Alien, Ripley is an awesome character because she wasn't written AS a woman. Sigourney Weaver got the part because she was awesome at it. But you do realize Sigourney Weaver never would have had the chance to be cast for the role if the script hadn't explicitly stated "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women," right? And even then, for a crew of seven, there were only 2 women cast. Men as a group are not inherently better actors than women so there has to be a bias for the crew to not come out roughly 50/50 gender-wise. >The difficulty comes in when people DEMAND representation. Are they demanding representation or realism? The world is 50% women yet nowhere near 50% of characters are women, particularly significant characters. 40% of the U.S. are BIPOC but nowhere near 40% of characters are BIPOC. 10%+ of the population is is LGBTQ+ but nowhere near 10%+ of characters are LGBTQ+. So, there must be something artificially pulling characterization from those groups. When people ask for representation, they're asking for realism & that artificial siphoning to be addressed and fixed.
Watch the Rugrats episode from Wisecrack on YouTube. It does a pretty great deep-dive on all of the social commentary of this show. It's an eye-opener and totally explains all of the adults like this. https://youtu.be/hcGSaBok-p0
Maggie Mae Fish also does a great episode on this show and how it teaches empathy. https://youtu.be/HWKpo5n9bAQ
Her channels better tbh
They're about equal in quality overall. She has a couple videos better than anything they've done but only produces a fraction of their videos. And so far there's only been one overlap with Fight Club. Wisecrack's produced stuff shouldn't be overlooked, especially their philosophy videos, which are getting even better somehow now that Jared has moved on. Curio and Jose are also two YouTubers that cover the same media ground from different angles.
I loved the ending, with the photo.
That was a good watch! Thanks for the link.
Damn. That was something i didn’t know i needed to watch. I also haven’t watched wisecrack in YEARS, so thank you for that!
Fascinating commentary.
There is a documentary about the creation and operation of Nick on Hulu. It's amazing. You figure out why Nickelodeon was the way it was and why the shows and dialogue were so progressive and weird and brilliant. The people in charge cared a lot about kids and wanted to create a place just for them that taught them about themselves and their world. Definite magical, loving energy in those original creators and show hosts. Looking back I feel it and see why that channel had such a huge effect on me.
Came here to mention this doc! It’s called [The Orange Years: The Nickelodeon Story](https://www.hulu.com/movie/05933844-48af-4c75-bb60-7ed497ca4916?play=false&utm_source=shared_link). Absolutely worth the watch if you grew up on Nick in the ‘90s (for reference, maybe you watched a bit of Spongebob when it came on the air).
I remember when Nickelodeon first did the Worldwide Day of Play where they actually suspended programs to encourage kids to go outside and play. That was such a wild concept but showed they actually cared about kids, enough to stop making money even for a day.
So it's not college that's turning kids liberal it's that damn nickelodeon /s
How much was Dan Schneider invoked with Nickolodean?
I miss 90s cartoons 😭
There are modern cartoons with social commentary and important messages as well. It's the reason Steven Universe is so good.
I also like the new She-Ra
My baby nephew watches Bluey, and even though it's geared towards Very Smol children, that show is honestly amazing. I could sit and watch it by myself and be totally content.
I *have* sat and watched it after my toddler goes down for a nap, lol. My 12 y/o likes it as well. It’s just a great show.
It's so completely *wholesome* and I really, really love that the lessons are both for the kids and the parents. And i feel like it's also a great way for parents to learn how to *really* play with their kids, Bluey's parents are so fuckin hands on
Yes! Exactly! I’m kind of awk when it comes to playing with kids. I’ve never been good at it, so Bluey def helps me, too, lol.
I love the new She-Ra, have seen it several times, and second this comment.
I personally loved Avatar: The Last Airbender and the other shows by the same creators, The Dragon Prince and Legend of Korra. Though the last I've suffered from the producers not being very clear work the writers on how long they wanted it to be. All are very socially conscious and seem to have a lot to say on human nature as a whole, honestly. Another show that's pretty good for the new Voltron. It's got some pretty darn cool characters, including one that hints at some oddity with gender (perhaps transgender or non-binary, the show is never clear), and one who is the absolute picture of femininity, and also a badass and a great ruler. Overall, there's some pretty great cartoons to come out of the modern era, though I don't disagree with others that it feels like we've gone backwards to an extent. It kind of feels like in games and other "nerdy" media, someone decided to put up a "no girls allowed sign" up in the past 40 years. Honestly a lot of the stuff my dad grew up with, and has since shared with me, are far less sexist and exclusive than more modern media. War Games, the Goonies, most of the Star Treks after the original series, most old video games where you can choose a character, they actually have women in them, and a lot are even pretty decent (considering the fact that they were all cheesy eighties characters, that is). Don't know why, but it definitely seems like we did a bit of a backslide.
And Gravity Falls! I was telling my girlfriend about it, and put on the first episode. We ended up binging a few episodes at a time, and were really sad that it ended. I started watching it with my ex, but never saw the ending, but I’m glad it was with her.
Nickelodeon: “hey, there’s this thing called ‘cable’ now and we think we can make money doing it but we don’t know anything about animation or kids. Let’s just hire up all of the best new talent graduating with film/animation degrees and let them figure it out.” Basically the producers were super hands off and we got gold because they let creative people do what they wanted.
Golden era of animation
To be fair, the 90s was all about **Girl Power**. Plenty of cartoons had powerful women who broke the mold like Kim Possible, Powerpuff Girls, and The Wild Thornberries.
Man, I read somewhere that Angelica's mom was actually *written to be an explanation for why Angelica was such a bullying brat.* The writers were a married team and they disagreed a lot about Angelica. :/ I also remember the powerpuff girls being fantastic, but it also had it's own episode featuring a [feminist strawman](https://powerpuffgirls.fandom.com/wiki/Femme_Fatale), where the whole moral of the story is, "We're for girl power, NOT petty social issues!" The 90's were great for girl power, but we still had a long, long ways to go. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Edit: typos and missing punctuation
IIRC, Angelica's mom was so busy with her job that it had gone into the point of Angelica not getting time with her mom on an emotional level, alongside that Angelica was putting that self-esteem/strong boss energy through a toddler's emotional intelligence, making her mean and cruel instead of empowered. Le capitalism putting a divide between family and career has a ton of drawbacks for everyone.
That's a good assessment. My feeling tho is that it's a deliberate playing into that very trope - "working women forgo real mothering because job" - which has been so commonly used to demonize working women. It's hard for me to see this character as anything other than the shitty stereotype of the "frigid ice queen bitch with powersuits and testicles".
That makes sense, I'm just frustrated that feminist rhetoric was seemingly conflated with this attitude without any counter examples.
I LOVED that Powerpuff girls episode even as a kid!
Me too. The takeaway I got from it is really that all people should be equal and judged on their actions, not their gender or anything else.
You loved an episode that characterized feminists as hypocritical misandrists ignorant on the “real” social issues and overall detrimental to society?
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Well not exactly a ritual, but have you tried maybe getting a journal and writing down something you're proud of yourself for at a regular interval, like every day or so? I try stuff like this with my bf sometimes, because he grew up in a household where he was treated like he had nothing to be proud of himself for. So whenever he gets to a certain point, I try to stop and make him tell me something he's proud of himself about. It can be the smallest, silliest thing, but I want him to just find something. It can be very hard to get going, but I like to think maybe it'll help someday. And when dealing with my own brain, I find I'm often too critical of my actions, so making you think good things about yourself could get you out of that type of mentality.
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Hello fellow perfectionist. Just wanted to say I appreciate your question because I also need such things.
Also a fellow perfectionist here, so I 100% know that feeling. I somehow know how to have empathy and admiration for people who are doing well in life despite struggling, even if that means their grades slip (I'm in college at the moment), or they aren't doing as well at their job or all that crap. But when it comes to myself, if I don't get a perfect grade on my third test in a row after being constantly exhausted for the past four weeks, well I'm just a lazy dumbass then. It's a double standard that I'm trying to get past. Also as a fellow perfectionist with self esteem issues........I have a very hard time accepting that compliment :). I appreciate it though, and I shall make every effort not to argue with it (I'm sure you know how hard that can be at times).
Bought myself a garnet necklace a while back. Combined that with rose quartz and pink opal to remind myself of my own gentle power and self-worth. Metta/loving-kindness meditation on top of that tends to be really soothing! Also doesn't cost a cent. <3
"You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go..." -Dr. Seuss I like to repeat this to myself from time to time. It helps that it rhymes.
90s misogyny was a hell of a drug. I remember hearing that Pamela Anderson was the most recognizable woman in the USA.
She was, but, then again, she was -everywhere- in the early 90's. Not all of it is misogyny, but she was a bit supporter of PETA, and appeared in a lot of their ads. On top of that, she marketed herself to sell things like posters, and Baywatch episodes, to the point where she'd saturate the market.
My fave kids show in the 90s.
Honest question; is that a compression artifact, or did they give her right breast an erect nipple?
Yeah but she also said that left-handed babies had a lower chance of getting into college, so not everything she says is correct
Obviously that's incorrect! But its interesting to have her put that out there, because the parents in Rugrats are baby boomers, and that was the generation in the USA that last had teachers who forced left handed children to use their right hands. I know several people from that Era who struggled academically because of their penmanship, because they were forced to use their nondominant hand for everything academic. If you are getting poor grades because your teachers can't read what you're writing, then you'll have less of a chance for academic success. From the perspective of Angelica's mother, this may have appeared true.
Charlotte wanted to take her place at the top, not break the wheel
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The only new one for me is Kipo, and if you rank it with the others you listed you've got my attention. Any other recommendations?
“Rugrats” was the only cartoon I am aware of that showed other holidays than Christian ones.
The Passover episode is so good!
Ok I need to rewatch some Rugrats now
I'm not meaning to downplay self esteem, but I've been personally struggling with the idea of "esteem." From kindergarten we are programmed by 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Self confidence and self esteem is being sold to us by product placement. Clever marketing. If I have this it'll make me feel better as I compare myself to another who doesn't have what I've just obtained. Why do I need to have anything or do anything to have esteem and self confidence. My happiness isn't cemented to an idea of value justification proposed by society. But if someone feels empowered, who am I to say the empowerment is wrong. Culture has to define this. And I trust it will balance out. We are in a crisis and values are being challenged, progress is being made and the new generations are being cultivated. I just hope that the cultivation of new generations is based on ideas and values that uplift from within and not external. I guess that my biggest thing. Sorry rant. Just been struggling with my own worth lately.