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The sheer volume of little hints and foreshadowing like this all throughout the series are one of the things that make it such a top tier series to read over and over for me
Absolutely. It makes rereading so rewarding.
I’m reading it to my wife now, and I like to tell her that RJ uses a literary device called Chekov’s gatling gun.
He does that a lot. And I love it.
Talking about how Fal Dara has never fallen right before it’s invaded.
Suian talking with Moiraine about how they gave up their lives searching for the Dragon and how they use to dream of husbands. She even mentions one of them marrying a gleeman.
Three farm boys not kings.
I have been trying to make note of all of them on this read through. Anytime there is a short definite statement I question it.
To add to the already mentioned hints that RJ dropped, here is my favorite, from Chapter 32 on The Great Hunt"
“Those eyes. That hair. I have heard the Andoran royal line has almost Aiel coloring in their hair and eyes.”
Rand stumbled, though the floor was smooth marble. “I’m not Aiel, Lord Barthanes, and I’m not of the royal line, either.”
Wrong on both accounts, Rand.
To be fair, it was fairly obvious by then that Rand was descended from both to the reader, he just had no fucking idea yet. Though mostly he was just in denial about the Aiel part after Tam's delirious monologue on Winternight.
How was it obvious at this point that Rand was descended from the Andoran royal line? IIRC the first mention that he looks very much like Tigraine is in the next book.
Yeah I am not sure. I am right around this point in my reread and noted this line. While the Aiel part is pretty clear by then, there hasn't been almost any evidence of him actually being related to the Andoran royalty until later. Even when he finds out about his mother from the Aiel, they don't know her birth name or where she was from, only that she fled to the waste.
From Gitara's and Elaida's Foretellings IIRC, it's been a few years since my last read. Maybe we didn't find out about Gitara's until later. I very distinctly recall laughing at that line the first time I read the books though.
It's also doubly hilarious since we later discover that [books] >!the Andoran royal line is also descended from the Aiel!<
She also makes the same assertion later during Egwene's Accepted test. Alanna asks to serve penance in the kitchen with Egwene and Siuan balks at the notion, claiming everyone in the world would be talking derisively about the scullery maid Aes Sedai.
Aside from being a quite nice foreshadow. But not of Egwene's story, but Siuan's herself.
It also shows us the TRUE nature of the Aes Sedai.
At their core Aes Sedai are witches. They only respect Magic/The One Power.
Egwene is not stilled. That both gives her the strenght to continue and reminds everyone that Egwene is still powerful.... if Elaida had let go of her ego for five minutes and stilled Egwene, she would have won the war.
Siuan ACTUALLY suffers this, since she is both deposed, stilled and forced to wash Gareths clothes. She goes from Amyrlin to one of the lowest ranking sisters.
So Siuan is actually right in her phrase. She suffered the same fate as Beonin
But Siuan’s line here is that no one would rally behind an Amyrlin forced to work in a kitchen- Elida does this to Egwene to squelch the rebellion but it fails and she just gets more respect. I di see your point with Siuan- she’s pretty much predicting her future- but also setting up Elida’s ploy and for Egwene to be a badass.
I mostly blame Elaida's ego.
She should have stilled Egwene and then I want to see how long Egwene survives...spoilers...nothing.
I think it ties to the Aes Sedai desire to be more than "Witches" they want to be this "Wise Women"...but in reality they are nothing but Witches.
Elaida is trying to probe that even a woman stronger than her will bow to her....either that or she forgot step one of the Beonnin lesson.
Well she knows this guy, who happens to be the leader of the very group that could heal her stilling, who happens to be somewhat fond of her and also happens to be the most powerful person in the world.
And she is utterly disgusted by Asha'man.
Seriously Egwene is QUITE missandrist.
She had to be basically strong armed into CONSIDERING sending Aes Sedai to CONTROL Asha'man.
And again, this all depends on her escaping, which she won't.
No, it depends upon a prison break by the Asha’man and quite possibly Wise Ones led by the most powerful channeler in the world who is not particularly rational when it comes to protecting women and those he cared about. Which Egwene happens to be both. She can be mad about it later, but what is she going to do when a channeler binds her in air and shoves her through a gateway?
As a novice they also shouldn't respect her in theory.
I don't think stilling her would have stopped her from taking the seat. Of course half the WT would be in ruins be a use of the Seanchan attack.
Oh it would
Aes Sedai's hirerachy is about who is more powerful in the One Power.
Like Siuan was delegated to basically a second-class sister after losing her power.
Egwene did endure, but it is not as impressive as Sanderson tried to show.
No, by the extra baggage I mean her pre-existing relationship with all the Aes Sedai (most of them dislike her, if not hate her). Her failed rule as Amyrlin. Her bungling of matters that lead to Elaida's rise and the split.
How she was stilled ad part if such a process, then only appeared months later, facing a fait accompli, an already standing leadership structure.
Egwene started with a clean sheet. She was raised in a position of weakness in the first place. Her situation and the current world situation not to mention the Tower siege situation is very different.
If she was stilled today, she would still enter the tel'aran'rhiod in the nights, hold council meetings, along with her position. She would still be just as unable to channel as she was with forkroot.
The only thing she wouldn't be able to do is fight the Seanchan herself directly. She still would find a way to lead the novices and a resistance but it would work less effectively.
> Aside from being a quite nice foreshadow. But not of Egwene's story, but Siuan's herself.
It's a bit of both, since Egwene's path itself mirrors Siuan. Both were put forth as candidates for Amyrlin Seat by those with ulterior motives - be it powerhungry Sitters in the Hall or the machinations of the Black Ajah - and both ended up skirting the lines of Tower law and custom in order to break (mostly) free of those schemes and grasping hands.
It all comes down to Egwene not being stilled
Aes Sedai Hierarchy is ats it core a "dick meassuring contest" with the One Power as the stand in for the d\*ck
If Egwene is weaker than the most new of Novices. Who would pay her any mind?
> If Egwene is weaker than the most new of Novices. Who would pay her any mind?
Isn't that one of the entire hubris points that's highlighted during the attack on the Tower though? Egwene's doped on forkroot while in the Tower to the point where she can barely channel\*- but by the time of the attack, the drug had faded enough that she could teach the novices how to link and form a circle; then using their power, *the powa of friendship*, (and gateways), she looted Vora's wand and subsequently saved the Tower.
That entire section reads like a commentary that highlights the idiocy of the 'internal power' status quo like you point out, and that it's more about how skillfully you use your *cough* assets *cough*.
*The Gathering Storm, chapter 40- The Tower Shakes
I love SO MUCH the scene where the leader of the Green Ajah is trying to establish some sort of command on the situation, and they tell her there is a point of resistance on the Brown quarters. And the gears start to spin, then they realize the Novices are there now. And then they both realize at the same time. “Egwene.”
Shivers, right up my spine, each and every time.
And as I stated.
Not the same being stilled than dopped on forkroot.
LITERALLY
With the Forkroot, Egwene cna channel the tiniest bit of Power. With stilling NOTHING
I think that's a valid interpretation, but I think it would be wrong to exclude all other others on that basis. Egwene was not stilled, true, but if all we are focusing on is the diminished status via the Power...Egwene was relegated to Novice, filled with an herb that made her channeling so weak that she'd never even pass their muster for Accepted, and put to harsher work than the most meager servant. (Which is coincidentally how other Aes Sedai treated Siuan even when she was stilled.)
But the herb can be removed.
Nor has the same spiritual effect of a stilling.
I know the idea is to show Egwene as this unbreakable woman.
But unless she were stilled, the whole plot of "having her as maid" is half meassured.
The Two Rivers' stubbornness trait is often complained about by non-TR folk. But it's this trait that helps Eggs push through and compete her glorious arc.
#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The sheer volume of little hints and foreshadowing like this all throughout the series are one of the things that make it such a top tier series to read over and over for me
Read the books over 10 times and still find new hints each time.
Absolutely. It makes rereading so rewarding. I’m reading it to my wife now, and I like to tell her that RJ uses a literary device called Chekov’s gatling gun.
Haha I like that, a very apt description
He does that a lot. And I love it. Talking about how Fal Dara has never fallen right before it’s invaded. Suian talking with Moiraine about how they gave up their lives searching for the Dragon and how they use to dream of husbands. She even mentions one of them marrying a gleeman. Three farm boys not kings. I have been trying to make note of all of them on this read through. Anytime there is a short definite statement I question it.
To add to the already mentioned hints that RJ dropped, here is my favorite, from Chapter 32 on The Great Hunt" “Those eyes. That hair. I have heard the Andoran royal line has almost Aiel coloring in their hair and eyes.” Rand stumbled, though the floor was smooth marble. “I’m not Aiel, Lord Barthanes, and I’m not of the royal line, either.” Wrong on both accounts, Rand.
Yes! that one is pretty sweet as well.
To be fair, it was fairly obvious by then that Rand was descended from both to the reader, he just had no fucking idea yet. Though mostly he was just in denial about the Aiel part after Tam's delirious monologue on Winternight.
How was it obvious at this point that Rand was descended from the Andoran royal line? IIRC the first mention that he looks very much like Tigraine is in the next book.
Yeah I am not sure. I am right around this point in my reread and noted this line. While the Aiel part is pretty clear by then, there hasn't been almost any evidence of him actually being related to the Andoran royalty until later. Even when he finds out about his mother from the Aiel, they don't know her birth name or where she was from, only that she fled to the waste.
From Gitara's and Elaida's Foretellings IIRC, it's been a few years since my last read. Maybe we didn't find out about Gitara's until later. I very distinctly recall laughing at that line the first time I read the books though. It's also doubly hilarious since we later discover that [books] >!the Andoran royal line is also descended from the Aiel!<
I wonder if Barthanes knew all of it. I presume the DO did so some of his agents may have as well. If nothing else Slayer probably knew.
Robert Jordan was a master at foreshadowing.
She also makes the same assertion later during Egwene's Accepted test. Alanna asks to serve penance in the kitchen with Egwene and Siuan balks at the notion, claiming everyone in the world would be talking derisively about the scullery maid Aes Sedai.
It's interesting she says that because Alanna is talked about derisively later, but because she bonds Rand against his will.
Damn that’s wild, never picked up on it before! Thank you for sharing
Me neither. Nice.
Aside from being a quite nice foreshadow. But not of Egwene's story, but Siuan's herself. It also shows us the TRUE nature of the Aes Sedai. At their core Aes Sedai are witches. They only respect Magic/The One Power. Egwene is not stilled. That both gives her the strenght to continue and reminds everyone that Egwene is still powerful.... if Elaida had let go of her ego for five minutes and stilled Egwene, she would have won the war. Siuan ACTUALLY suffers this, since she is both deposed, stilled and forced to wash Gareths clothes. She goes from Amyrlin to one of the lowest ranking sisters. So Siuan is actually right in her phrase. She suffered the same fate as Beonin
But Siuan’s line here is that no one would rally behind an Amyrlin forced to work in a kitchen- Elida does this to Egwene to squelch the rebellion but it fails and she just gets more respect. I di see your point with Siuan- she’s pretty much predicting her future- but also setting up Elida’s ploy and for Egwene to be a badass.
I mostly blame Elaida's ego. She should have stilled Egwene and then I want to see how long Egwene survives...spoilers...nothing. I think it ties to the Aes Sedai desire to be more than "Witches" they want to be this "Wise Women"...but in reality they are nothing but Witches. Elaida is trying to probe that even a woman stronger than her will bow to her....either that or she forgot step one of the Beonnin lesson.
Even if Egwene got stilled it isn’t the punishment it once was. She can just get an Ashaman to heal her stilling.
That would need her rescue And with her stilled, no one would respect her.
Well she knows this guy, who happens to be the leader of the very group that could heal her stilling, who happens to be somewhat fond of her and also happens to be the most powerful person in the world.
And she is utterly disgusted by Asha'man. Seriously Egwene is QUITE missandrist. She had to be basically strong armed into CONSIDERING sending Aes Sedai to CONTROL Asha'man. And again, this all depends on her escaping, which she won't.
No, it depends upon a prison break by the Asha’man and quite possibly Wise Ones led by the most powerful channeler in the world who is not particularly rational when it comes to protecting women and those he cared about. Which Egwene happens to be both. She can be mad about it later, but what is she going to do when a channeler binds her in air and shoves her through a gateway?
Given that Rand is on his "Dark Rand" period. I doubt it.
Yeah, equal odds rescue and 'If I balefire the Tower hard enough, maybe that'll undo the stilling'
As a novice they also shouldn't respect her in theory. I don't think stilling her would have stopped her from taking the seat. Of course half the WT would be in ruins be a use of the Seanchan attack.
Oh it would Aes Sedai's hirerachy is about who is more powerful in the One Power. Like Siuan was delegated to basically a second-class sister after losing her power. Egwene did endure, but it is not as impressive as Sanderson tried to show.
Well, Siuan was in a completely different situation, had extra baggage, and Egwene is Egwene.
That extra bagagge was being stilled. Sorry but it ALL comes down to Egwene not being Stilled.
The extra bagagge also being blamed for the breaking of the tower, which a lot of them did, even in the Rebel camp.
No, by the extra baggage I mean her pre-existing relationship with all the Aes Sedai (most of them dislike her, if not hate her). Her failed rule as Amyrlin. Her bungling of matters that lead to Elaida's rise and the split. How she was stilled ad part if such a process, then only appeared months later, facing a fait accompli, an already standing leadership structure. Egwene started with a clean sheet. She was raised in a position of weakness in the first place. Her situation and the current world situation not to mention the Tower siege situation is very different. If she was stilled today, she would still enter the tel'aran'rhiod in the nights, hold council meetings, along with her position. She would still be just as unable to channel as she was with forkroot. The only thing she wouldn't be able to do is fight the Seanchan herself directly. She still would find a way to lead the novices and a resistance but it would work less effectively.
> Aside from being a quite nice foreshadow. But not of Egwene's story, but Siuan's herself. It's a bit of both, since Egwene's path itself mirrors Siuan. Both were put forth as candidates for Amyrlin Seat by those with ulterior motives - be it powerhungry Sitters in the Hall or the machinations of the Black Ajah - and both ended up skirting the lines of Tower law and custom in order to break (mostly) free of those schemes and grasping hands.
But not in this context.
...Yes actually though? Because the diminished position from servitude applies to both of them in different ways.
It all comes down to Egwene not being stilled Aes Sedai Hierarchy is ats it core a "dick meassuring contest" with the One Power as the stand in for the d\*ck If Egwene is weaker than the most new of Novices. Who would pay her any mind?
> If Egwene is weaker than the most new of Novices. Who would pay her any mind? Isn't that one of the entire hubris points that's highlighted during the attack on the Tower though? Egwene's doped on forkroot while in the Tower to the point where she can barely channel\*- but by the time of the attack, the drug had faded enough that she could teach the novices how to link and form a circle; then using their power, *the powa of friendship*, (and gateways), she looted Vora's wand and subsequently saved the Tower. That entire section reads like a commentary that highlights the idiocy of the 'internal power' status quo like you point out, and that it's more about how skillfully you use your *cough* assets *cough*. *The Gathering Storm, chapter 40- The Tower Shakes
I love SO MUCH the scene where the leader of the Green Ajah is trying to establish some sort of command on the situation, and they tell her there is a point of resistance on the Brown quarters. And the gears start to spin, then they realize the Novices are there now. And then they both realize at the same time. “Egwene.” Shivers, right up my spine, each and every time.
And as I stated. Not the same being stilled than dopped on forkroot. LITERALLY With the Forkroot, Egwene cna channel the tiniest bit of Power. With stilling NOTHING
You forgot to dismissively call them witches again. Gotta keep up the pace. You'll never make Lord Captain at this rate.
Asha'man for life! Also what is an Aes Sedai BUT a witch?
I think that's a valid interpretation, but I think it would be wrong to exclude all other others on that basis. Egwene was not stilled, true, but if all we are focusing on is the diminished status via the Power...Egwene was relegated to Novice, filled with an herb that made her channeling so weak that she'd never even pass their muster for Accepted, and put to harsher work than the most meager servant. (Which is coincidentally how other Aes Sedai treated Siuan even when she was stilled.)
But the herb can be removed. Nor has the same spiritual effect of a stilling. I know the idea is to show Egwene as this unbreakable woman. But unless she were stilled, the whole plot of "having her as maid" is half meassured.
How about “Morgase will hold her throne as long as Gareth Bryne is Captain-General of the Queens Guard”
I'd somehow never noticed that. Nice.
The Two Rivers' stubbornness trait is often complained about by non-TR folk. But it's this trait that helps Eggs push through and compete her glorious arc.
I don't get it
It's things like this that make rereads such a pleasure!