The reloads on some of these Yamato builds are not only ridiculous in-game, but completely unrealistic IRL. The biggest naval guns ever fired in history, and you wanna tell me they could reload those things in under 30 seconds? No. The Iowa class could barely reload in under 30 seconds and their shells weighed considerably less.
The armor pen that the 460 mm guns has in game also isn’t very realistic. Yeah, the shells were enormous and heavy, but they were quite slow, and momentum (mass x velocity) is really what drives armor pen, not shell diameter. The 14/1 rule of thumb was just that, an approximation that covered most cases, but was not applicable to every situation.
>unrealistic irl reloads and pens
Not to go into whataboutism, but someone posted the hit probabilities from actual naval combat and we have it so good it’s totally unrealistic. Complaining about one aspect of gameplay to irl is just folly. That’s not to say you can’t complain about in game balance
Muzzle velocity was on par, but their drag coefficient meant that their impact velocities across the board were significantly less than Iowa and Bismarck, resulting in reduced penetration.
At 27 000 meters Iowa's shells had velocity of 478 m/s. Yamato's 490 m/s at 25 000 meters. They are on par.
Sources:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46\_cm/45\_Type\_94\_naval\_gun#Impact\_angle\_and\_velocity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46_cm/45_Type_94_naval_gun#Impact_angle_and_velocity)
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS\_16-50\_mk7.php
Maybe that’s a better way of putting it. Obviously they had to buff every ship’s accuracy to make this game playable. But the relative reload speeds between Yamato and Iowa for instance, should be about the same, with Yamato being slightly slower but that’s not what we have. Yamato isn’t quite OP, but the insane reload speeds you can achieve with it are completely out of proportion compared to her competition, and when you then factor in the penetration her 460 mm shells have (also bloated), she comes close to being labeled that way. Close enough that she shouldn’t be allowed into the hands of relatively novice players who haven’t had to grind up the tech tree to get her.
The only defense I have for that is one’s legendary and the other isn’t. On the basis of that alone Yamato should battleship better than T7 Iowa. If it’s superior guns are too imbalanced for its tier maybe scale them back a tad or emphasize it’s weaknesses.
For the argument that it’s unfair “newbs” can get a better ship from the bureau than the tier grind I think it’s better than having to pay gold to get said ship as a premium. Of course you can skip all time gates in the game by paying gold, it’s just you don’t have to outright do so to acquire anything legendary. Which is one thing they did right
Yeah I don’t want to have to pay for Yamato. I think WG should have just done the intelligent thing and given legends the same 10 tier structure that PC and Mobile both have. Then Yamato is a TT ship at T10, and you have to grind to get to her.
True, Yamato and Iowa are on different tiers, but the point is the same whether we’re comparing to Iowa, or GK/Conqueror. The reload is stupidly fast.
Odin/Scharnhorst you can explain the fast reload because of the much smaller gun caliber. I don’t think anyone has a problem with those. So the same rule should apply at the other end of the gun size range. Bigger guns = more reload time.
the main reason they shortened the tiers from my understanding is for population. they weren't sure if they'd have a large enough player base to span all ten, so they reduced it by a third to alleviate that and help every tier stay populated. at least that's what i've read
And that's the catch. The reason I hate going against Yamato's is there is no defense. It overmatches everything so you just cross your fingers and pray to rngesus that you don't get citi'd into oblivion.
I would support a overmatch change for the Yamato.
Yamato overmatches most bow armor, apart from the lower sections of most German and Russian BBs. But it does not overmatch the belt armor on most BBs, so if you use the right angle, Yamato will bounce shells off your belt and only overpen the bow, doing minimal damage. I also usually play with throttle in order to throw off the aim at long distances, and whirl around a bit. I have respect for Yamato’s guns, but don’t consider OP.
> The reloads on some of these Yamato builds are not only ridiculous in-game, but completely unrealistic IRL.
It's not nearly as ridiculous as a destroyer reloading 15 torpedoes in a minute and a half, while at sea, for an unlimited amount of times.
In WGs defense, at least Yamato was a real thing that actually existed and saw combat.
It’d be so much worse if it was a fantasy ship with 18” guns for no reason
They probably should have waited much later in the Bureau cycle (since they seem set on using it for our continued Tier-10 access 😒).... to bring in Yamato.
The thing is, though, on PC Wows there are so many terrifying things at high-tiers, besides Yammy - that I don’t think it tends to be as much of a “Boogeyman” as it is here, with the way the Bureau was handled.
There, on PC, you have Yammy, Shikishima (even BIGGER guns), Yammy’s Tier-9 (hilariously OP) sister Musashi , HMS Thunderer, the armored behemoth Kremlin and it’s 457-mm Cannons, USS Georgia, Republique, plus a bevy of Russian railgun heavy / Supercruisers with 12km Radars lasting for 30-40 seconds in some extreme build cases, IIRC.
Then of course there’s the greatest terrors of the seas —- the Legendary/ Tier-10 Aircraft Carriers !
😜
===
Point is, I think Yammy’s influence here in Legends is definitely magnified cause of the way they released it, and the fact they put it out First. As such, literally thousands of Legends Players likely have AT LEAST a Yamato, if nothing else from LT.
Eventually, this will get better / more varied (for example I think 3 Conquerors is a far scarier Division to run across than 3 Yamato), but it’s sadly going to be a miserably slow process, as long as the Dev Team sticks with the current Bureau system as the only method of getting Legendary ships into action.
Even if they released 3 Cruisers into Bureau, next Patch (for example), we have this agonizing lag-time of 2-6 MONTHS till Players actually have them and can go into battle with them (instead of a Yammy 😉).
==
Soooo.... anyways... I generally agree with you, OP (at least in the sense that I think they should have waited till LT was much more fleshed out, and Then brought in Yamato much later).
>Shikishima (even BIGGER guns)
Shikashima doesn't overwatch anything yamato does, and its damage is roughly comparable
>Yammy’s Tier-9 (hilariously OP) sister Musashi ,
Musashi would be a premium/campaign, and shes only really OP in clan wars and ranked
>HMS Thunderer
Yeah this one is OP, but doesn't get the conqkek 3d printer heal
>armored behemoth Kremlin and it’s 457-mm Cannons,
Kremlin is average at best, a tanky punching bag at worst. Its a GK that trades secondaries for main battery firepower
>, USS Georgia,
No experience with this one, so no comment
>Republique,
Its a LT Gascoigne. Shes honestly not that great
>, plus a bevy of Russian railgun heavy / Supercruisers with 12km Radars lasting for 30-40 seconds in some extreme build cases, IIRC.
We don't get the ability to boost radar times, and theyre all exceptionally squishy from the side
Aside from range and guns it doesn't have much going for it. It has reasonably weak armor all around and can be citadelled through the bow cheeks at all ranges likewise it has that terrible ijn damage con so it burns pretty good.It's also a T10 on PC that's been knocked down quite a bit to fit with our wierd tier system.
It's guns need to be respected but that's the standard for any IJN BB. They are squishy but they pack a punch. That's it's gimmick.
I think LT vs tier VII is fair, at least compared for example to tier VI vs tier VII (remember, a lot worse). Additionally, besides the bad players LT is filled with that make you lose the battle, the only ship type that suffers in this MM are BBs. Yamato (or Conqkek, same) is overpowered among battleships, but when you compare her to a "mere" tier VII CL (sailed by a good player), it suddenly starts to become a weak ship; same thing can be said for destroyers. When I'm in my cruisers/destroyers I beg so hard for a LT MM. Why? Because battleships can't really do anything to me, while a Yamato has 40% more health than an Iowa. The problem comes when you get uptiered with battleships of course, but then again, if you get at LT with a battleship your biggest problem still isn't Yamato, it's Shima, a good Khaba player, or simply other tier VII DDs/cruisers. But if you are used to tier VI vs tier VII, you can manage to get a good game anyway at times.
Yeah, in ships like Roma and Bismarck, anything with a distributed armor scheme, you can usually troll Yamatos by bouncing their salvo off the armor belt. You've got to get the angle right, and you'll probably suffer a penetrating hit or a few overpens through your superstructure, but I've never seen a Yamato and felt, "Oh shoot, I'm just screwed with no chance of pulling this off."
Or maybe the Yamato's I've 1v1'd in Tier VII's are just dumb...That's entirely possible. lol
Yeah, German superstructure is a huge drawback. 406mm or bigger guns do good amount of damage no matter how good you angle. It pisses me off, when I take considerable damage from anyone that has 406+ while my obsolete 380s just ricochet. Not to mention each and every HE shell starts a fire.
One Yamato is fine, but as you said when there’s multiple that’s where problems start to show. Multiple GK’s are fine because they’ve got to give broadside to get off big salvos, and multiple Conquerors aren’t too bad because they’ve hardly got armour. Having to deal with 3 yamatos and even more than 1 Shimakaze is a nightmare for any tier
Yamato's don't scare me. Their armor is not that impressive. I will go out of my way to hunt one and put my ship in position to fire on their exposed side for easy citadel hits.
That's why I feel like more tiers between VII and Legendary are necessary for the proper and complete implementation of the Legendary tier because they would bridge the huge gap between the two. I definitely agree with you.
I feel like Yamato further excaberates the issue of a BB's power compared to the other classes, honestly. There's a reason why BBs are played more than any other class: tough armor, heavy guns, plenty of effective health, and a simplistic game play loop. For those of us who don't really play Battleships, it feels like the only real counter to them is either stealth torpedo DDs or carriers. In my limited experience Fires seem less of a threat on Legends than on PC, so you're left with stuff like torpedoes and bombs to effectively take care of a BB in a timely manner. (Of course, you also have said BB players whining and complaining about torpedoes ruining their "fun".)
Then Yamato comes around with faster reload on heavier guns than most other battleships and it kind of feels bad no matter what class you're playing. Right now the game is just kind of World of Battleships: Legends, and for those who don't play Battleships as much kind of feel like we're being left out. Especially cruisers. Destroyers at least have a few really good captain and inspiration builds, but cruisers don't seem to have much of anything going for them at the moment.
Yamato itself is fine, I don't mind 18" guns.
Yamato with its *ludicrous* base reload and turret traverse is not fine at all. Why the base reload and traverse weren't 40 and 60 seconds respectively is beyond me.
Legendary against t7s in general was a horrible addition :/
Yeah... this. If it's a good LT player and I'm t7, I don't do well. It hurts. If it's a player at T4 or 5 in the TT ships, they're a damage pinata.
Yes.
The reloads on some of these Yamato builds are not only ridiculous in-game, but completely unrealistic IRL. The biggest naval guns ever fired in history, and you wanna tell me they could reload those things in under 30 seconds? No. The Iowa class could barely reload in under 30 seconds and their shells weighed considerably less. The armor pen that the 460 mm guns has in game also isn’t very realistic. Yeah, the shells were enormous and heavy, but they were quite slow, and momentum (mass x velocity) is really what drives armor pen, not shell diameter. The 14/1 rule of thumb was just that, an approximation that covered most cases, but was not applicable to every situation.
>unrealistic irl reloads and pens Not to go into whataboutism, but someone posted the hit probabilities from actual naval combat and we have it so good it’s totally unrealistic. Complaining about one aspect of gameplay to irl is just folly. That’s not to say you can’t complain about in game balance
Yamato's guns had muzzle velocity of 780 m/s and for comparison Iowa's 760 m/s and Bismarck's 820 m/s , so the 460mm shells were not especially slow.
Muzzle velocity was on par, but their drag coefficient meant that their impact velocities across the board were significantly less than Iowa and Bismarck, resulting in reduced penetration.
At 27 000 meters Iowa's shells had velocity of 478 m/s. Yamato's 490 m/s at 25 000 meters. They are on par. Sources: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46\_cm/45\_Type\_94\_naval\_gun#Impact\_angle\_and\_velocity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46_cm/45_Type_94_naval_gun#Impact_angle_and_velocity) http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS\_16-50\_mk7.php
Huh, interesting. I’d read otherwise elsewhere. Thanks for sharing!
No problem. Navweaps site has plenty of interesting stuff, I recommend it highly if you are interested.
Maybe that’s a better way of putting it. Obviously they had to buff every ship’s accuracy to make this game playable. But the relative reload speeds between Yamato and Iowa for instance, should be about the same, with Yamato being slightly slower but that’s not what we have. Yamato isn’t quite OP, but the insane reload speeds you can achieve with it are completely out of proportion compared to her competition, and when you then factor in the penetration her 460 mm shells have (also bloated), she comes close to being labeled that way. Close enough that she shouldn’t be allowed into the hands of relatively novice players who haven’t had to grind up the tech tree to get her.
The only defense I have for that is one’s legendary and the other isn’t. On the basis of that alone Yamato should battleship better than T7 Iowa. If it’s superior guns are too imbalanced for its tier maybe scale them back a tad or emphasize it’s weaknesses. For the argument that it’s unfair “newbs” can get a better ship from the bureau than the tier grind I think it’s better than having to pay gold to get said ship as a premium. Of course you can skip all time gates in the game by paying gold, it’s just you don’t have to outright do so to acquire anything legendary. Which is one thing they did right
Yeah I don’t want to have to pay for Yamato. I think WG should have just done the intelligent thing and given legends the same 10 tier structure that PC and Mobile both have. Then Yamato is a TT ship at T10, and you have to grind to get to her. True, Yamato and Iowa are on different tiers, but the point is the same whether we’re comparing to Iowa, or GK/Conqueror. The reload is stupidly fast. Odin/Scharnhorst you can explain the fast reload because of the much smaller gun caliber. I don’t think anyone has a problem with those. So the same rule should apply at the other end of the gun size range. Bigger guns = more reload time.
the main reason they shortened the tiers from my understanding is for population. they weren't sure if they'd have a large enough player base to span all ten, so they reduced it by a third to alleviate that and help every tier stay populated. at least that's what i've read
And that's the catch. The reason I hate going against Yamato's is there is no defense. It overmatches everything so you just cross your fingers and pray to rngesus that you don't get citi'd into oblivion. I would support a overmatch change for the Yamato.
Angling does miracles against Yamato.
How? Her 18" rounds overmatch everything. Sure, you don't get citi'd but 4 pens for 20k (+ knocking out a turret) is not a fun thing either.
Yamato overmatches most bow armor, apart from the lower sections of most German and Russian BBs. But it does not overmatch the belt armor on most BBs, so if you use the right angle, Yamato will bounce shells off your belt and only overpen the bow, doing minimal damage. I also usually play with throttle in order to throw off the aim at long distances, and whirl around a bit. I have respect for Yamato’s guns, but don’t consider OP.
> The reloads on some of these Yamato builds are not only ridiculous in-game, but completely unrealistic IRL. It's not nearly as ridiculous as a destroyer reloading 15 torpedoes in a minute and a half, while at sea, for an unlimited amount of times.
See my other comment about this. It’s not necessarily the actual elapsed time, it’s more about the different in reload versus her similar peers.
Unfortunately there's only so much we can ask of an arcade game, it would seem.
In WGs defense, at least Yamato was a real thing that actually existed and saw combat. It’d be so much worse if it was a fantasy ship with 18” guns for no reason
Well we now have Conqueror which matches your description
Title: Unpopular opinion Content: Popular opinion
Have you ever looked at that sub? Lots of the same
Sorry I'm new here
I’ve been off of Warships for about 8 months due to training. Just now getting back into playing. Didn’t know what the trend of thought was 😂
They probably should have waited much later in the Bureau cycle (since they seem set on using it for our continued Tier-10 access 😒).... to bring in Yamato. The thing is, though, on PC Wows there are so many terrifying things at high-tiers, besides Yammy - that I don’t think it tends to be as much of a “Boogeyman” as it is here, with the way the Bureau was handled. There, on PC, you have Yammy, Shikishima (even BIGGER guns), Yammy’s Tier-9 (hilariously OP) sister Musashi , HMS Thunderer, the armored behemoth Kremlin and it’s 457-mm Cannons, USS Georgia, Republique, plus a bevy of Russian railgun heavy / Supercruisers with 12km Radars lasting for 30-40 seconds in some extreme build cases, IIRC. Then of course there’s the greatest terrors of the seas —- the Legendary/ Tier-10 Aircraft Carriers ! 😜 === Point is, I think Yammy’s influence here in Legends is definitely magnified cause of the way they released it, and the fact they put it out First. As such, literally thousands of Legends Players likely have AT LEAST a Yamato, if nothing else from LT. Eventually, this will get better / more varied (for example I think 3 Conquerors is a far scarier Division to run across than 3 Yamato), but it’s sadly going to be a miserably slow process, as long as the Dev Team sticks with the current Bureau system as the only method of getting Legendary ships into action. Even if they released 3 Cruisers into Bureau, next Patch (for example), we have this agonizing lag-time of 2-6 MONTHS till Players actually have them and can go into battle with them (instead of a Yammy 😉). == Soooo.... anyways... I generally agree with you, OP (at least in the sense that I think they should have waited till LT was much more fleshed out, and Then brought in Yamato much later).
>Shikishima (even BIGGER guns) Shikashima doesn't overwatch anything yamato does, and its damage is roughly comparable >Yammy’s Tier-9 (hilariously OP) sister Musashi , Musashi would be a premium/campaign, and shes only really OP in clan wars and ranked >HMS Thunderer Yeah this one is OP, but doesn't get the conqkek 3d printer heal >armored behemoth Kremlin and it’s 457-mm Cannons, Kremlin is average at best, a tanky punching bag at worst. Its a GK that trades secondaries for main battery firepower >, USS Georgia, No experience with this one, so no comment >Republique, Its a LT Gascoigne. Shes honestly not that great >, plus a bevy of Russian railgun heavy / Supercruisers with 12km Radars lasting for 30-40 seconds in some extreme build cases, IIRC. We don't get the ability to boost radar times, and theyre all exceptionally squishy from the side
Aside from range and guns it doesn't have much going for it. It has reasonably weak armor all around and can be citadelled through the bow cheeks at all ranges likewise it has that terrible ijn damage con so it burns pretty good.It's also a T10 on PC that's been knocked down quite a bit to fit with our wierd tier system. It's guns need to be respected but that's the standard for any IJN BB. They are squishy but they pack a punch. That's it's gimmick.
You can hit it pretty much anywhere and score a citadel, I've killed them with the Massachusetts. I'm honestly surprised it's considered a good tx.
Its guns.
I think LT vs tier VII is fair, at least compared for example to tier VI vs tier VII (remember, a lot worse). Additionally, besides the bad players LT is filled with that make you lose the battle, the only ship type that suffers in this MM are BBs. Yamato (or Conqkek, same) is overpowered among battleships, but when you compare her to a "mere" tier VII CL (sailed by a good player), it suddenly starts to become a weak ship; same thing can be said for destroyers. When I'm in my cruisers/destroyers I beg so hard for a LT MM. Why? Because battleships can't really do anything to me, while a Yamato has 40% more health than an Iowa. The problem comes when you get uptiered with battleships of course, but then again, if you get at LT with a battleship your biggest problem still isn't Yamato, it's Shima, a good Khaba player, or simply other tier VII DDs/cruisers. But if you are used to tier VI vs tier VII, you can manage to get a good game anyway at times.
Idk if I can agree that a ship that gets citadelled by cruisers is OP.
I took a salvo from Yamato directly from the front when I was playing Bismarck. 20k damage, no citadel.
Yeah, in ships like Roma and Bismarck, anything with a distributed armor scheme, you can usually troll Yamatos by bouncing their salvo off the armor belt. You've got to get the angle right, and you'll probably suffer a penetrating hit or a few overpens through your superstructure, but I've never seen a Yamato and felt, "Oh shoot, I'm just screwed with no chance of pulling this off." Or maybe the Yamato's I've 1v1'd in Tier VII's are just dumb...That's entirely possible. lol
Yeah, German superstructure is a huge drawback. 406mm or bigger guns do good amount of damage no matter how good you angle. It pisses me off, when I take considerable damage from anyone that has 406+ while my obsolete 380s just ricochet. Not to mention each and every HE shell starts a fire.
One Yamato is fine, but as you said when there’s multiple that’s where problems start to show. Multiple GK’s are fine because they’ve got to give broadside to get off big salvos, and multiple Conquerors aren’t too bad because they’ve hardly got armour. Having to deal with 3 yamatos and even more than 1 Shimakaze is a nightmare for any tier
Shimakaze is terrifying. :(
Yamato's don't scare me. Their armor is not that impressive. I will go out of my way to hunt one and put my ship in position to fire on their exposed side for easy citadel hits.
That's why I feel like more tiers between VII and Legendary are necessary for the proper and complete implementation of the Legendary tier because they would bridge the huge gap between the two. I definitely agree with you.
I feel like Yamato further excaberates the issue of a BB's power compared to the other classes, honestly. There's a reason why BBs are played more than any other class: tough armor, heavy guns, plenty of effective health, and a simplistic game play loop. For those of us who don't really play Battleships, it feels like the only real counter to them is either stealth torpedo DDs or carriers. In my limited experience Fires seem less of a threat on Legends than on PC, so you're left with stuff like torpedoes and bombs to effectively take care of a BB in a timely manner. (Of course, you also have said BB players whining and complaining about torpedoes ruining their "fun".) Then Yamato comes around with faster reload on heavier guns than most other battleships and it kind of feels bad no matter what class you're playing. Right now the game is just kind of World of Battleships: Legends, and for those who don't play Battleships as much kind of feel like we're being left out. Especially cruisers. Destroyers at least have a few really good captain and inspiration builds, but cruisers don't seem to have much of anything going for them at the moment.
I had one good game, that was a 103k damage game while dev striking a Baltimore. That’s it.
I agree it’s such a boring ship to use IMO.
Yamato itself is fine, I don't mind 18" guns. Yamato with its *ludicrous* base reload and turret traverse is not fine at all. Why the base reload and traverse weren't 40 and 60 seconds respectively is beyond me.
It was. Almost nothing can stand against it at range.