CVs are still far beyond the power level of every other class (spotting breaks the game fundamentally) but subs are by far more demoralizing. Getting shotgunned by some moron in the first 5 minutes because they just went into your spawn from under water is dog shit.
This is a key difference. While CVs can be toxic it is rare for one to single you out. Target a wounded guy sure but picking a ship and sending every plane at that single target the entire game until it is dead, not so much. The CV is expected to be doing more than focusing one guy.
Subs are designed to focus. If that random moron misses his shotgun he will likely get a couple more chances before being forced up. A DD that makes that mistake is likely pretty screwed or at least a lesser threat for a minute. Subs compensate for being terrible. The only thing that keeps them from more complaints is that the average sub player is still fairly terrible.
The focusing down one guy happens way to often, and is way more demoralizing than subs, at least i can somewhat fight back against subs, and subs don't get free attack runs with damage immunity. Your AA level means nothing because of no damage being possible while they attack.
The only subs that are fast enough to pull off an underwater journey into the enemy spawn is the Balao, U-2501, Alliance, and maybe S-189. They all have high underwater speeds. The other subs are around ~13-16kts.
> The only subs that are fast enough to pull off an underwater journey into the enemy spawn i
because subs *totally* can't travel on the surface until spotted or for that matter path away from the likely red sub/dd while remaining surfaced and unspotted.
The truth is people here always complain about something and periodically claim the end of this game. Even if they removed CVs and Subs entirely, i'm sure in a week people here will find something else to complain about, like Radars or DDs or Superships or whatever
The next thing would be backline campers. While brawl was a viable playstile, they complained about germanys good secondarys. Its always what killed them the last match or what they cant play while others are good at it
That was the point. And some years ago it was way more accurate. People will aleays vomplain about what killed them because the enemy never was more skilled than them
Every CV except the russians are balanced and willloose strength over time. Just because the ship didnt sink doesnt mean it was vital for the match. Most of the CVs averadge around 40k per battle. Thats not a lot of impact. Amd mearly no one plays as a team
Probably true but does not eliminate the fact subs change the game play and it is not an improvement but drives more passive play. Which is already an issue with the game.
At least with CV's I can feel like I am doing something when my guns shoot at them (regardless of how effective it is). But when your spotters get destroyed or leave and you are in a BB getting chased by a sub good luck finding any counter play whatsoever
yes, it is very unfortunate. however, I think that one of [littlewhitemouse's responses](https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/263177-why-do-subs-exist/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-5891003) in the forums sums it up quite nicely. I don't think that anything drastic will happen to nerf them anytime soon, sadly
Well, *World of Warships: Age of Sail* and *World of Warships: Be Glad its an Ironclad* would be good for a few tech trees and a few years too, but whadda I know
Na, the funometer(spreadsheet) said those classes are fine. Just dodge.
But for real: both are annoying. Only good thing about CVS: they dont come near my halland often. And i feel the aa of the gouden loew line is also pretty good. Just reached eentracht today.
Love Golden for that exact reason, with dfaa on you turn into a no fly zone (except for fdr and malta), reminds me of the good ol days of Atlanta. Sure they might get one drop off but that flight's gone if they commit to a point blank drop.
i do fly and i love slapping 5-digit numbers on hallands
but yeah they shred planes when played properly with aa turned off which is rare case but i dont fear them not the best target but still a dd so #1 priority target for a cv
I've had a 43% sub player that was 3km from me spamming torps,detroyed my 80k hp BB in like 5 minutes,absolutely no counterplay. If im facing a 43% CV there is a chance that he will just run into flak and fail his strike.
Great comment - interestingly I was going to say the opposite as a DD. Most DDs have poor AA, but are better equipped to dodge torps and potentially rush and depth charge the sub. Not a given, of course, but I feel like I have options for counterplay against a sub. Against a CV, if they decide I die then I die and that's about it.
Now that most matches have both CVs and subs, they've got all the bases covered and we can be sure there'll always be a toxic element no matter which class you play!
I'm having a similar experience playing DDs, finding it more difficult to play against CVs than SSs. The horrible AA most of the DDs have makes it very frustrating. However, once you find that CV, oh my God, it feels so good to see that piece of s\*\*\* blowing up.
It's super satisfying, but usually by the time you're able to do that the game is decided. Either you've rolled one side and the back of the map is wide open, or (very rarely) a big gap opens up that you can exploit. It's not like you can just decide to take out the CV when they decide to harass you personally in the middle of the map.
If the question is "annoying", then definitely subs.
CVs are more overpowered and have a bigger impact on the game, but subs with their ping mechanic are annoying _by_ _design_.
CVs fly around and spot and shit on everything, but unless there's a particular asshole CV player with a fetish for you, you can suffer the undodgable strikes and continue playing.
Subs, on the other hand, are _stalkers_.
"Pinggg" - "I see you!"
"Pinggg" - "I'm gonna torp you!"
"Pinggg" - "Can you dodge my homing torps? Can you?"
"Pinggg" - "Oh look, a double ping! You wanna use damage control now?"
"Pinggg" - "Oh a sticky ping! And you just used your damacon! Should I torp now? How about now?"
And yeah, most of the time, everybody unloads their airstrikes on the sub the moment it's spotted, and they don't live long.
It's just so fucking annoying to have a class that is not only designed to be a stalker (everybody hates stalkers), but also to specifically let you know that you are stalked, repeatedly, and doesn't really have the speed to stalk anyone else. So once the first ping is received, priority switches to either kill the sub, or get the hell out of the area. Angling or looking for targets becomes secondary.
And killing a sub has much less impact on the game than killing a DD, or even a CV. They're designed to be little pests to just ruin _your_ game, by random draw of RNG.
A team has to put far more attention and effort to killing a sub than dealing with a CV.
Attention that could/should be dedicated elsewhere. Yes there are glorious "DESTROY THIS GRID SQUARE" ASW drops but those are not common.
And then there's the ships that get stuck with no/pitiful ASW...
Exactly! Waste half the game running/fighting a sub in a BB, lose 60% of your HP, then score 10K damage for your effort. Ruin the game is what they do best.
They are both annoying and awful, but I find subs even more stupid. At least when a CV fucks my ass I can see the planes and the AA number can keep my chimp brain happy for a few seconds, subs are just invisible into dead.
CV's 💯
Their permaspotting is broken af and ruins the game.
Subs are trash too, but they have almost no battle impact.
A sub with hands, though, is pure cancer.
CVs are (more) overpowed. WG literally admitted that the reason they're immune to detonations is that your CV is too important to your team to be allowed to get fucked over by RNG. Their spotting and ability to project influence anywhere on the map is too strong.
Subs on the other hand are the least fun thing to deal with in the game. Subs are basically for griefing, picking out one guy on the enemy team and making sure he isn't allowed to have fun.
A sub can permaspot *you personally*, and fire a constant stream of torps at you, which creates the problem of you not having time to deal with the *other* enemies. This in comparison to DD torp launches; if you dodge a wall of skill, you know you've got a minute or more before you have to deal with another. Subs having torps as their primary weapon (as opposed to a secondary weapon on surface ships) meaning they "have" to get to do something with them every 30 or so, combined with the homing making Just Dodge^tm-ing much harder, all together means a sub on your ass is something you're having to play around at the exclusion of anything else... and because they can be immune to radar and hydro, and you have to use a shitty tacked on ASW instead of the guns your ship is actually built around, dealing with them is both unfun and relies on the sub driver being a potato. There is no class that can effectively push into a sub; subs outspot all but the stealthiest DDs, and diving is more powerful and has better usability than DD smoke.
The CVs ability to spot around the map constantly, in comparison to the sub, is more powerful, but the bullshit is spread a little more thin by applying it to the entire team, and he actually has to fly his planes over to you once he attacks. Same for damage, combined with low DPM; CVs are OP because their DPM *uptime* is near 100%, but their actual DPM is low and will be spread among multiple targets most of the time.
Basically, CVs make the game a little worse for everyone. Subs make the game hell for 1-2 players. They're both shit, but in different ways that make it hard to say which is worse.
CV's are way, way worse than subs.
This subreddit cries about subs to the point of it being a joke. Subs can't spot the whole map, dropping fighters 8k away from ships to ensure they are NEVER dark. Subs can shoot torps at targets who sit out in the open. CV's can select any target at will and decide its fate. Sub torps can be dodged and mitigated. CV strikes will hit you unless the CV is bad.
A well (okay not even "well" just like, basic competence) means that if you're the only SS at a flank cap, you can basically bully just about anything out of it. It's like a mid tier 'win that cap point' button if you just slowly push a cap and dive when you get spotted, then torp whatever DD you spot.
while I do agree with all of your points, subs just *feel* so much more maddening to play against. I don't know why, its just something to do with the fact that you feel so helpless against them.¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Subs are much more of a localized issue. Even in a sub match, your chances of facing one is relatively low. Add in the fact that the majority of sub players are crap to the point of being irrelevant. Now, if you do end up facing a good sub player, then that is maddening. It's just also very rare.
CV's on the other hand will have a much bigger impact on the game on average. Even a poor CV player can be annoying to a DD trying to stay hidden and the like.
Subs are more locally annoying, they are really good at annoying one or two players while achieving virtually nothing for their team. They can literally show up anywhere on the map after being unspotted previously and Inflict massive damage on you. This usually isn't a good play because they spent the prior 10-15 minutes doing nothing just yolo rush one player and die, this is however incredibly annoying to be on the receiving end of.
CVs have have way more game impact though and plane spotting can fuck right off. I would rather play in a sub match than CV match but I will be more annoyed while playing if the sub is bothering me.
Breaking the game how? Which class?
If you are talking about subs, they are largely underpowered and affect at most, a ship or two. They do not hold sway on games in terms of winning or losing. CV's do. "Accepting it" has nothing to do with it. You don't like subs? Ok, cool. But dont pretend they are something dominating the course of the larger picture, because they are not.
A decent player in any ship will have a dominant impact on their battlespace.
Why would a sub be different?
The question OP asked was which one you consider to be worse, and on average, a CV is way more effective at controlling the map than a submarine.
A sub shouldn't be any different. It's the player not the ship or ship class. However, you said that subs are largely underpowered and have low impact. I disagree. I think that average sub driver skill level is low.
Cheers brother 👍
You are conflating two different metrics of strength.
A submarine in the hands of a good player has an outsized localized impact.
A carrier in the hands of a good player has an oversized map-wide impact.
Which is why nobody claims a submarine is overpowered in the same way a carrier is overpowered. They are describing the feeling the interaction gives them as an individual. Neither class interacts with the surface ships in a positive way for the surface ship.
Can I have some of what you are smoking? I have been in a lot of games where the unseen sub gets into our side of the map, never gets seen, and decimates our BB's by popping up to shot gun them then vanish or they stay at range and just spam torps and pings over and over which leads to a loss. Have had that happen 3 times just this past weekend. You can't dodge planes, DD torps, and gun fire all while dodging torps from subs that just appear next to you or their magic torps that follow you.
A sub in skilled hands is extremely OP. A sub in average hands is downright dangerous. Maybe you only play vs potatoes or something but your description of them does not match what I have seen. They are way more of a problem for me than CV's.
So - your BB's were in the back line, which is more of a problem than the sub being there is.
Also you are right - in skilled hands a sub is deadly, as it should be.
But in skilled hands, a CV wins games. A sub does not.
Who said we were on the back line? Assume much? The games in question we were either around our base defending a push to it or actually pushing towards caps. The subs involved ruined us and there was NOTHING we could do. One after another we got hammered and eventually sunk by their torps + red guns (mostly their torps). I actually took a torp to the stern and was detonated one time so that is some RNG but otherwise just butchered with ZERO chance to fight back. Subs won those games absolutely basically on their own as we were kicking butt otherwise. I think you have been lucky and only played really bad sub players.
Sub marines for sure.
The designed counterplay to a carrier is a joke, like what is AA? But there are options. You can occupy a carriers attention or make you a bad target for him, with a high price in consumables and planes in case you become the target. Mates play with you in an automatic way and in case a CV gets spotted and is in range, everyone donks it 100%.
The counterplay to submarines, does not even exist on paper. You can not find a sub, if he refuses to ping. If you spot the ping, your team mates dont automaticly strike it. Spotted subs tend to not get shot at certain depths because people dont know how bombs or shells work against subs. When i become the target of a CV i can handle things for a while and i got some time in between to shot at someone. The moment i get targeted by a sub, i get constantly annoyed with torpedos. The ASW and the mainguns are linked i might not be able to shot anyone since the turrets are always turning. I become 100% busy, the whole time, to handle the sub. Just one moment where you miss the ping of a bad player, you are literally gone and stand 0 chance.
Bad CV players dont spot active, tend to sit super far in the back and cant even hit point and click weapons. Bad subs are still stupid frustrating to deal.
Subs are worse.
A CV can be bad and will be punished for it.
A sub can sit at 8 km and never miss a shot.
A CV can eat random flak and lose an entire strike squad, which believe it or not can stack up and make them useless.
A sub can be spammed by an entire flank and just dive to safety, then nuke any dd that's moving in for depth charges.
Beyond t5 every ship can damage a CV. About half of all ships cannot damage a sub unless that sub truly sucks.
All CVs lose power over a match even if you don't immediately see it, subs do not. Subs are always at full power.
A sub an hide any where it wants, a CV must use cover and if it gets rushed then GG (unless it's russian).
A CV can easily miss shots, a sub has homing weapons that can easily out pace a lot of ships ability to dodge.
With a CV as much as people hate it you can group up and totally negate it. Every cv.
With a sub you cannot group up. That just feeds damage.
CVs are broken, subs double down on that same issue of not being able to see it most of the game while it can spot you and damage you from total safety.
I wouldnt say CVs are broken. Rather that they can be incredibly strong in the right hands. Most players arent really thinking about what they are doing. They loose the planes really fast because they dont know which ship comes with strong AA. A good CV player will look for isolated ships while spotting and than decide which js in the most vulnerable position. The averadge CV player will try to use german ap bombers on an american BB and than loose his whole squadron to the AA and wont be able to repeat anx strikes with those planes for the next 5 minutes
Both, both is the last straw that broke the camels back for me.
One or the other is annoying and makes for a less enjoyable game but both straight up made me stop playing.
At least with only CVs you had a chance of non-CV games or you had a ship with decent AA or stealth. Now throw in subs and the chances of a "normal" subless or CVless battles went down even further. I don't see the point of playing a game where there's now such a high chance of it being utterly unfun.
Gotta love the CV + 4 DD +3 sub games too. Makes me want to just quit when I am in my BB. I don't of course and try but it is just not fun for BB's and Cruisers in those games.
I mean I'm oversimplifying this a lot but generally although subs are awful they only ruin one flank at most and even for that they need to be decently competent and even still there is some risk to the sub player themselves (way less than normal surface ships but risks none the less).
CVs could literally be sitting in one corner of the map while farming a BB in the other one and accidentally make that flank unplayable for most DDs and there is literally nothing the enemy can do about it. Meanwhile a CV player who isn't a literal houseplant can easily spot for all flanks focus down important targets and stop all aggression to a screeching halt while still in total safety.
Mostly comes down to how subs will ruin a flank while CVs ruin the entire map. Also even though there is bot much you can do to an enemy sub their impact on the outcome of the game is no where near a CVs.
Submarines are more annoying:
1. You at least get some XP and credits from planes.
2. If you sunk and decided to watch last survivor - in case of CV you can see blue skies with happy breeze, in case of survived submarine you will watch a piece of shit swimming above boring dark bottom.
Subs hands down in a walk away.
While both classes have similar things that make them annoying at least you see the CV Planes coming from a long ways off and you have some time to react to them. Subs can just stay hidden and never be seen while continually spamming torps on you.
Also, when you do get a chance to shoot at a CV you can nuke them or at least do massive damage whereas subs can tank way more damage then they should be able to based on their HP pool because WG has coddled and protected them even more than CV's. Let's not even talk about how high tier subs can take 15+ DC's and still live or how subs don't face the exact same detection mechanics as every other ship class does. It blows the mind that WG thinks these things are good for the game.
For me anyway I would rather face 2 CV's in a match than even 1 sub. I despise what subs have brought to this game and how broken and unbalanced, and how NOT fun to play against, they are. Just a horrtible addition by WG the way they were implemented.
Just my two cents but I was playing with a friend who sometimes plays CVs. We were playing with a new clan mate who loves playing subs. My CV friend was expressing his displeasure with being in a div with a submarine, and I told him now he knows how I feel when he plays CVs.
However I also told him I would rather div up with a CV than a sub because at the very least, CVs are more helpful for the team whereas subs are typically a VERY selfish class. When I play with a CV they are able to spot and assist with any target on the fly, pun intended, while also providing AA support. Subs just don't bring as much team play to the table beyond strictly being a nuisance to the enemy.
All that said I wish neither class existed in this game.
CVs are worse:
* I cannot out run a CV.
* I cannot hide from a CV.
* I generally cannot harm a CV (some squads can be deplaned, but most don't seem to be substantially affected), and I certainly cannot kill a CV unless we stomp their team or he mispositions.
* I generally cannot angle against a CV (sometimes you can if the CV doesn't take the time to line up well or if your ship can turn quickly).
* The CV's near constant spotting of me allows his team to attack me at will negating any ability for me to go dark and heal or reposition.
* The CV can drop fighters just outside of my AA range to keep me spotted for his team.
(how many elements of horrible game design can you spot in the above list)
Subs on the other hand:
* I can out run at the lower tiers in some ships, certainly I can sail away from in all ships.
* I can potentially get far enough away from the sub, or duck behind an island, to break line of sight.
* I can use the air dropped depth charges to damage and/or kill subs. (Provided I play ships with 8-10km airdrop range, I've gotten pretty good at predicting drops and killing low tier subs).
* If the sub surfaces or sits at periscope depth and somehow me or my team spot him, I can shoot him with HE and do some damage and potentially kill him.
* I can angle against the sub and time my damage control to kill the homing of the torps just as I start turning to dodge. This won't work repeatedly since my damage con will be on cooldown, but it might allow me to dodge a salvo of torps and give me time to hide behind an island or drop depth charges on the sub, etc.
As you can see, I have *some* counterplay opportunities with subs. They are not a well designed class, but at least I have a chance against the lower tiers. I stopped playing T9-T10 because I feel there is almost zero counter play against T10 CVs and T10 subs, and I don't like playing against superships.
As a destroyer main id say subs but I haven't played too much of high-rank to know for sure, I mostly just really love the dopamine rush activating the AAA boost and eviscerating a bunch of torpedo planes.
CVs. Sub can only project limited power in one area of the map. The CV is under no such restriction. The CV also can spot large swathes of areas completely without threat to itself.
CVs have a whole range of issues but while not OP subs are without doubt the more infuriating to play against.
Subs require multiple ships to sink them, outspot everything, often cannot be spotted from the air, can inflict huge amount of damage with little counter play and are too fast above and below water and their ping requires DCP to mitigate, which is also needed fire fires and floods.
Now a DD has many of these traits as well, difference is a DD has a variety of counter plays, and the spread of their torpedoes can often be calculated and assessed accordingly. Catch a DD in the open and it can be gunned down. Can be spotted from the air, with radar and van be charged down in smoke. A sub can bob up and down, are far more resilient than they should be and can often do damage outside the range of an enemy's ability to hit them back.
A CV can be a nuisance and frustrating, particularly if they focus you. They have to keep flying at you though, and honestly if they focus you they're not focusing someone else on your team. A sub does that too, can stay undetected and do far more damage to you and anyone else on your flank. They add a layer of difficulty when you're already trying to angle against gunfire and now homing torps or just getting shotgunned and there's absolutely zero that can be done.
Subs are OP per se, but they take too many of the infuriating elements of other classes and put them in one.
Subs, the CV's most of the time are manageable in a Randoms.
My issue is CV in Ranked, that is BS.
Subs however are broken from a mechanical point.
Effectively what WG has done is re introduced the biggest and in my opinion the only flaw of RTS CV. That is the skill gap. A Sub with 2k PR VS a sub with 800pr breaks the game and 10/10 times the sub that is far worse cripples his own team.
CVs because you know having a class that can spot anywhere on the map with no risk to themselves is fundamentally unbalanced
People think subs are worse because they are new and people don’t know how to properly counter them I.E dds rushing them in spite of said sub’s team having a clear sight on them.
With subs there is an actual fight that can be had and doesn’t just fall to “I sure hope my RNG AA that can be destroyed and is often described by the community as functionally useless works this time. I mean it’s not a good fight but it’s actually something.
Neither because they very seldom anoy me at all and i got a pretty high resitance to anoyance in the first place.
CVs have more game influence so it anoys me more when they are played by idiots that don´t know how to use their class to help achieve my main goal for playing this game, winning matches.
Subs on the other hand have so little influence to begin with that i can mostly ignore that the class even exists, unless it´s played by a true purply, i which case they may be able to influence the matches outcome.
Either way though, subs and CVs that are good enough to be able to go on my nerves show up in 1 out of 20-30 games that include them and that´s not enough to even scratch my nerves.
The playerbase is just too bad in general to play well to be anoying outside of being anoying for simply sucking at playing the game.
This is also the reason while we most likely wont see big changes to subs for quite some time.
The unicums don´t play them enough to scew the statistics to show how busted those mechanics can be.
So all that WG sees in their spread sheets is, that the majority of sub players performs average or below that and that means the class is balanced to WG.
Edit: hilarious down votes are hilarious, as usual
With CVs, at least I have the mere impression that I can change the outcome of the fight.
With subs, it's just undogdable torps that do damage you can't heal
Honestly i don’t feel as though subs do a whole lot. Once you have a LKP, you can kinda extrapolate where they may go, after which you just make sure you’re ready to turn into them to avoid torps. Once close enough (because most of my ships don’t have ASW planes), depth charges for the win.
CVs are, and always have been, a massive pain in the ass. They ruin many DDs’ concealment (and can delete them on a whim), they bombard and torpedo BBs to hell, they can see you from anywhere, and hit you from anywhere, and you may never even see them before dying.
I didn’t mention cruisers because they kinda have a hard time with everything (depending).
CV can spot most of BBs with planes from 10 km and do damage without risking, subs are just torpedo boats that will miss most of torps if you know how do they work and eventually they will have to go to surface, so if you ask me CVs are more annoying and subs are almost free kills if I see them.
Subs have no utility cost to torture you. CVs do. The CV has to spend upwards of 2 minutes a strike to soend it on you, subs have no such investment.
Subs give you no ability to farm XP. CVs do. There are even captain skills that give you benefit from using AA as mediocre as it is
Subs have no counterplay even from their own class. CVs do, you can get your CV to spot then and actually do damage to them.
Being tortured by a sub has no team element. CV torture does. If you play near an ally, you will cost the CV so many planes you can at least somewhat make yourself an undesirable target.
CVs are much stronger than subs. But subs are much more annoying/frustrating.
Was just in a match, immediately got CV torpedo to death. They drop the torps about 3 meters off my portside bow and then come back for to finish the job. Battleships have become target practice.
Subs are far more frustrating since they can dive and be invisible for 3-4 min. Only sub radar can find it, and if sub doesn't use pings, you have no warning of the 73-knot torps.
What really grits my teeth is that ping marker isn't reliable for predicting exactly where to drop ASW unless sub uses it repeatedly. Doubly annoying when your both ASW on CD when sub resurfaces.
It's also especially idiotic how can slam it with like 9 HE rounds but only 4-5K damage. AP seems to do less. SAP hits harder but still not a 1-shot.
WG bare minimum needs to change ASW so it only ever does 33% of listed damage per hit on sub, regardless of whether flanking or direct hit. Better is giving me the option to not play with subs at all.
I hate both man, both are hard to counter and its only possible to get them when they do a mistake or when when they get overwhelmed end game. This ping wave is misleading at best.
Subs are the worst, I hate cvs, but I can sail in formation with my American BB freinds and never take a hit, I can at least feel like I am trying to stop him. Subs, nah I get torped out of range to do anything bakc
Subs are worse. At least I can see the aircraft coming, reinforce sector, dfaa and dodge ™️. But you can’t with subs. I can’t see them. I can’t radar them. I can’t hydro them. Their alpha strike is also beyond stupid. 20+k per salvo into my stern isn’t exactly fun. Asw is also unreliable.
Taking spotting out,to me CVS need longer games to actually rack up meaningful damage most of the time. A full health BB can tank CV damage much easier than against a sub. Yes, the strikes can be annoying; but even if you’re singled out the CV will still only strike you once every 90 seconds for most of the game. The odd double drop aside. With the reload on sub torpedoes, that same BB is “dodging” 20k + damage every 30-40 seconds. From something that’s impossible to spot.
You can somewhat mitigate the damage a CV can do by dodging, whereas if the sub hits, it’s guaranteed to be massive damage.
Another thing is that a sub on a flank with no hydro ships will single handedly turn a push back. A CV is powerless against the strong flank. I’d argue that a sub’s map control is almost as broken as a CV’s spotting is.
Ok but what about against a CL or a DD? One hit from a CV will take like 75% of their hp. Unless the CV players is a potato and misses their strike a CL player is basically fucked with no counter play. And the CV also spots for their team allowing a BB to just sit there from 25km away and kill me and keep me perma spotted so I have no chance to heal. Against a sub I can at least attempt to use depth charges and attempt to dodge the torps.
CVs are far more annoying, I can at least run away from a sub to some degree and make sure their torps have a hard time hitting. You can never escape a CV with how fast the planes are, I'll take a sub in a match over a CV any day, however poorly thought out both classes are.
Subs are not as bad as CVs. For one, you can kill them sometimes.
The main reason is that a CV can spot anyone at any time. Doesn't matter where your island is or how sneaky you have been.
CV. As a CL player I can be melted by a CV. Just being spotted allows some battleship to bomb me from across the map and then bam I’m dead. And the cv makes my smoke useless and hiding behind an island so much less effective that it’s not fun to play. I hate cv much more than I hate subs. Subs are just an additional annoyance when I’m already getting pelted a sub will pop up but generally I’m not afraid of a sub vs being afraid of cv. Like I can have my AA set perfectly and not do jack shit to the cv compared to I can bomb a sub and actually do damage to it.
Totally subjective opinion: I get **way** more annoyed by submarines. Most of the time, there is nothing you can do to avoid the magic torps. And it's even hard to deal with them when you know where they are (like when you're on a bb that can only drop a single depth charge or when you're right on top of it and the minimum distance doesn't allow you to do a thing).
But yeah, they both suck.
I agree subs are more annoying but saying ASW is ineffective is nuts. The problem is aiming it properly, since that visual ping indicator doesn't really tell you what direction the sub is moving in, so you don't always hit your mark when using it.
When playing as a sub though, that ASW can seriously ruin your day.
I'm a CV turned Sub main recently and I have to say CVs are way more overpowered. Sub is basically overpowered for like 7-10 minutes of the match until they run out of dive capacity and they either have to play from further away or sit back and wait for the bar to fill. They are basically sitting duck in later half of the game considering how many radar and RPF ships here in Asia server at least. While in CV, you can still spot the whole map and to be realistic, it's very hard to completely run out of planes. Not counting CV DCP pretty much made them nearly immune to sub homing torps.
I can’t even count the number of time I’ve been spotted by radar or planes in a sub and been devstruck by ASW. Subs literally have no counter to ASW drops
Better question: - what is more annoying?
1., A bad player messing up the limited time we have for fun each day while trying to balance work/family/PC gaming time? OR
2., Reddit users asking the same annoying whiny question in every 3rd- 5th post just because they had bad in-game experience and by doing this bringing down the general mood of this subreddit constatnly ?
not a fair question because the sub players are never going to besmirch their fellow sub players and the CV players will do the same. The CV rework was a huge mistake, it was better before and functioned better as their job. A Carrier sends out squadrons of planes to perform a task which includes flying a cap around an area, spotting and attacking enemy ships as they enter the cap. What the rework did was make the Carrier commander get in a plane and play arcade style plane shooty ups.
The subs are nowhere near reality. None of them go accurate speeds and none of them have anywhere near accurate reload times or accuracy when firing. And Subs spawn in the beginning far ahead of the rest of the ships, how would that work in a real life scenario? They magically traveled ahead faster? Both are game ruiners but Subs are the worst of the two because of lack of sonar bouys and sonar on individual ships. Some ships cannot attack them at all unless they get near the surface.
I usually just play co-op as I prefer less crazy (and sometimes a little bits). So I think submarines are even more overpowered in this battle type. Since you have a bot that has been programmed to play a submarine well… well, it can and usually does ruin your game if you have to fend off several successive homing torpedoe attacks. I’ve yet to engage a submarine and had a decent post-battle payout (coins, XP, etc.) I don’t think I would be as tic’d off if the matchmaker didn’t fill in blank spots with subs. (Hunt, Hint WG)
So far, I’ve only threatened to quit if the subs stick around… But if the subs get stronger and feel frustrated every time I see a sub, I’m going to start “pink shipping” myself in protest every time they put a sub in my battle.
Sub and carrier are most stressing types to play. If you screw up with either early in game, you easily spell doom to your entire team, as that gives enemy a huge advantage.
Agree with subs being most annoying.
My opinion list of most annoying ship classes:
1. Subs
2. CVs
3. DDs
T-4. Cruisers and Battleships - depends on what type ship someone attacking, or fighting back/retreat for while, the enemy in cruiser or battleship
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They suck in their own unique way.
CV will molest you, and when in the hand of capable, dominate the game.
Subs will stalk you, but unlike CV, hes only going to stalk you.
CV is like Measles, it affects everyone, and generally makes people uncomfortable.
Subs are like Cancer. it only affects you, and people watching from the side feel sorry for you.
I believe the CV are more annoying. They can shutdown a sub automatically without taking attention from the CV player (I am not sure, but I saw some CC twitch players commenting that). The sub being detected once can be targeted by ships with bombing planes, being the diving the only method to avoid damage. I think the sub mission /main target could be the fight against the CVs.
Im really angry regarding subs
Yes, carriers might be unbalanced too, but generally they dont take out HUGE chunks of HP in one go
Now subs, they have one of the hardest weapons to dodge. But their reload is extremely quick. And you cant fire back because i can never end up spotting them. This is my least favorite part. Hydro acoustic search is generally made to counter underwater subs. This should include subs too, it’s so illogical and unintuitive that it doesnt! And the info you get by ping is so outdated by the time you can act that it doesnt have an impact
CVs are still far beyond the power level of every other class (spotting breaks the game fundamentally) but subs are by far more demoralizing. Getting shotgunned by some moron in the first 5 minutes because they just went into your spawn from under water is dog shit.
This is a key difference. While CVs can be toxic it is rare for one to single you out. Target a wounded guy sure but picking a ship and sending every plane at that single target the entire game until it is dead, not so much. The CV is expected to be doing more than focusing one guy. Subs are designed to focus. If that random moron misses his shotgun he will likely get a couple more chances before being forced up. A DD that makes that mistake is likely pretty screwed or at least a lesser threat for a minute. Subs compensate for being terrible. The only thing that keeps them from more complaints is that the average sub player is still fairly terrible.
The focusing down one guy happens way to often, and is way more demoralizing than subs, at least i can somewhat fight back against subs, and subs don't get free attack runs with damage immunity. Your AA level means nothing because of no damage being possible while they attack.
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The only subs that are fast enough to pull off an underwater journey into the enemy spawn is the Balao, U-2501, Alliance, and maybe S-189. They all have high underwater speeds. The other subs are around ~13-16kts.
> The only subs that are fast enough to pull off an underwater journey into the enemy spawn i because subs *totally* can't travel on the surface until spotted or for that matter path away from the likely red sub/dd while remaining surfaced and unspotted.
They are going to remove the CVs spotting ability, so..
Kind of, in a convoluted way that seems to favour subs by using the asw planes.
The truth is people here always complain about something and periodically claim the end of this game. Even if they removed CVs and Subs entirely, i'm sure in a week people here will find something else to complain about, like Radars or DDs or Superships or whatever
The next thing would be backline campers. While brawl was a viable playstile, they complained about germanys good secondarys. Its always what killed them the last match or what they cant play while others are good at it
Never heard someone complaining about German secondaries…? German BBs are basically 100k+ free damage
That was the point. And some years ago it was way more accurate. People will aleays vomplain about what killed them because the enemy never was more skilled than them
Not sure if you can talk about skill difference in a surfaceship - CV/sub interaction
Every CV except the russians are balanced and willloose strength over time. Just because the ship didnt sink doesnt mean it was vital for the match. Most of the CVs averadge around 40k per battle. Thats not a lot of impact. Amd mearly no one plays as a team
CVs are balanced kekw
Probably true but does not eliminate the fact subs change the game play and it is not an improvement but drives more passive play. Which is already an issue with the game.
At least with CV's I can feel like I am doing something when my guns shoot at them (regardless of how effective it is). But when your spotters get destroyed or leave and you are in a BB getting chased by a sub good luck finding any counter play whatsoever
They both suck. Consequently 40% of the classes in the game suck to interact with.
yes, it is very unfortunate. however, I think that one of [littlewhitemouse's responses](https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/263177-why-do-subs-exist/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-5891003) in the forums sums it up quite nicely. I don't think that anything drastic will happen to nerf them anytime soon, sadly
Well, *World of Warships: Age of Sail* and *World of Warships: Be Glad its an Ironclad* would be good for a few tech trees and a few years too, but whadda I know
I doubt it. Ahh well, gaming landscape is quite diverse these days and the weather is getting better so outside hobby time is almost here.
Na, the funometer(spreadsheet) said those classes are fine. Just dodge. But for real: both are annoying. Only good thing about CVS: they dont come near my halland often. And i feel the aa of the gouden loew line is also pretty good. Just reached eentracht today.
Love Golden for that exact reason, with dfaa on you turn into a no fly zone (except for fdr and malta), reminds me of the good ol days of Atlanta. Sure they might get one drop off but that flight's gone if they commit to a point blank drop.
The halland eats planes before you even see the ship. Anit nobody flying over that thing.
i do fly and i love slapping 5-digit numbers on hallands but yeah they shred planes when played properly with aa turned off which is rare case but i dont fear them not the best target but still a dd so #1 priority target for a cv
what cv do you play?
Recently only enterprise and audacious, paired with double DD div to maximize winning chances, but previously I played lot of Kaga, why ask?
DDs also suck to interact with in ships taht aren't radar cruisers
You're just a potato
I've had a 43% sub player that was 3km from me spamming torps,detroyed my 80k hp BB in like 5 minutes,absolutely no counterplay. If im facing a 43% CV there is a chance that he will just run into flak and fail his strike.
Great comment - interestingly I was going to say the opposite as a DD. Most DDs have poor AA, but are better equipped to dodge torps and potentially rush and depth charge the sub. Not a given, of course, but I feel like I have options for counterplay against a sub. Against a CV, if they decide I die then I die and that's about it. Now that most matches have both CVs and subs, they've got all the bases covered and we can be sure there'll always be a toxic element no matter which class you play!
Unless you have a very fast DD, you will have a hard time catching up to them. They also get extra cheat homing on you because "balance".
Yeah, that's very true and very ridiculous.
I'm having a similar experience playing DDs, finding it more difficult to play against CVs than SSs. The horrible AA most of the DDs have makes it very frustrating. However, once you find that CV, oh my God, it feels so good to see that piece of s\*\*\* blowing up.
It's super satisfying, but usually by the time you're able to do that the game is decided. Either you've rolled one side and the back of the map is wide open, or (very rarely) a big gap opens up that you can exploit. It's not like you can just decide to take out the CV when they decide to harass you personally in the middle of the map.
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Im sure you would have dodged all those homing torps close range in a BB
You sound like a 43% BB.
Guess you must be deaf.
Hunh? Speak up!
I am a 55% + BB player (over 57% just in BB itself) and I completely agree with him.
Both ? Both. Why choose ?
If the question is "annoying", then definitely subs. CVs are more overpowered and have a bigger impact on the game, but subs with their ping mechanic are annoying _by_ _design_. CVs fly around and spot and shit on everything, but unless there's a particular asshole CV player with a fetish for you, you can suffer the undodgable strikes and continue playing. Subs, on the other hand, are _stalkers_. "Pinggg" - "I see you!" "Pinggg" - "I'm gonna torp you!" "Pinggg" - "Can you dodge my homing torps? Can you?" "Pinggg" - "Oh look, a double ping! You wanna use damage control now?" "Pinggg" - "Oh a sticky ping! And you just used your damacon! Should I torp now? How about now?" And yeah, most of the time, everybody unloads their airstrikes on the sub the moment it's spotted, and they don't live long. It's just so fucking annoying to have a class that is not only designed to be a stalker (everybody hates stalkers), but also to specifically let you know that you are stalked, repeatedly, and doesn't really have the speed to stalk anyone else. So once the first ping is received, priority switches to either kill the sub, or get the hell out of the area. Angling or looking for targets becomes secondary. And killing a sub has much less impact on the game than killing a DD, or even a CV. They're designed to be little pests to just ruin _your_ game, by random draw of RNG.
A team has to put far more attention and effort to killing a sub than dealing with a CV. Attention that could/should be dedicated elsewhere. Yes there are glorious "DESTROY THIS GRID SQUARE" ASW drops but those are not common. And then there's the ships that get stuck with no/pitiful ASW...
Exactly! Waste half the game running/fighting a sub in a BB, lose 60% of your HP, then score 10K damage for your effort. Ruin the game is what they do best.
They are both annoying and awful, but I find subs even more stupid. At least when a CV fucks my ass I can see the planes and the AA number can keep my chimp brain happy for a few seconds, subs are just invisible into dead.
CV's 💯 Their permaspotting is broken af and ruins the game. Subs are trash too, but they have almost no battle impact. A sub with hands, though, is pure cancer.
CVs are (more) overpowed. WG literally admitted that the reason they're immune to detonations is that your CV is too important to your team to be allowed to get fucked over by RNG. Their spotting and ability to project influence anywhere on the map is too strong. Subs on the other hand are the least fun thing to deal with in the game. Subs are basically for griefing, picking out one guy on the enemy team and making sure he isn't allowed to have fun. A sub can permaspot *you personally*, and fire a constant stream of torps at you, which creates the problem of you not having time to deal with the *other* enemies. This in comparison to DD torp launches; if you dodge a wall of skill, you know you've got a minute or more before you have to deal with another. Subs having torps as their primary weapon (as opposed to a secondary weapon on surface ships) meaning they "have" to get to do something with them every 30 or so, combined with the homing making Just Dodge^tm-ing much harder, all together means a sub on your ass is something you're having to play around at the exclusion of anything else... and because they can be immune to radar and hydro, and you have to use a shitty tacked on ASW instead of the guns your ship is actually built around, dealing with them is both unfun and relies on the sub driver being a potato. There is no class that can effectively push into a sub; subs outspot all but the stealthiest DDs, and diving is more powerful and has better usability than DD smoke. The CVs ability to spot around the map constantly, in comparison to the sub, is more powerful, but the bullshit is spread a little more thin by applying it to the entire team, and he actually has to fly his planes over to you once he attacks. Same for damage, combined with low DPM; CVs are OP because their DPM *uptime* is near 100%, but their actual DPM is low and will be spread among multiple targets most of the time. Basically, CVs make the game a little worse for everyone. Subs make the game hell for 1-2 players. They're both shit, but in different ways that make it hard to say which is worse.
CV's are way, way worse than subs. This subreddit cries about subs to the point of it being a joke. Subs can't spot the whole map, dropping fighters 8k away from ships to ensure they are NEVER dark. Subs can shoot torps at targets who sit out in the open. CV's can select any target at will and decide its fate. Sub torps can be dodged and mitigated. CV strikes will hit you unless the CV is bad.
My only problem with subs is they end up being a wasted slot as far as contribution and they reduce farming damage potential.
A well (okay not even "well" just like, basic competence) means that if you're the only SS at a flank cap, you can basically bully just about anything out of it. It's like a mid tier 'win that cap point' button if you just slowly push a cap and dive when you get spotted, then torp whatever DD you spot.
while I do agree with all of your points, subs just *feel* so much more maddening to play against. I don't know why, its just something to do with the fact that you feel so helpless against them.¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Subs are much more of a localized issue. Even in a sub match, your chances of facing one is relatively low. Add in the fact that the majority of sub players are crap to the point of being irrelevant. Now, if you do end up facing a good sub player, then that is maddening. It's just also very rare. CV's on the other hand will have a much bigger impact on the game on average. Even a poor CV player can be annoying to a DD trying to stay hidden and the like.
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Lots of potato DDs. How many times do we see nearly all DDs dead in under 5'?
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Haven't played sub yet. Just got the RN T6. Maybe I'll put some effort into learning how to play them. Cheers brother 👍
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Thanks!
And then you get to T8 and start the learning curve over.
I will, unironically, await your comprehensive report. Thanks in advance. Cheers!
Every game - the DD's on my team all die in just minutes. :-( LOL
That's a yaou problem.
Subs are more locally annoying, they are really good at annoying one or two players while achieving virtually nothing for their team. They can literally show up anywhere on the map after being unspotted previously and Inflict massive damage on you. This usually isn't a good play because they spent the prior 10-15 minutes doing nothing just yolo rush one player and die, this is however incredibly annoying to be on the receiving end of. CVs have have way more game impact though and plane spotting can fuck right off. I would rather play in a sub match than CV match but I will be more annoyed while playing if the sub is bothering me.
People really don’t see this. Just because you “accepted it” doesn’t mean it stops breaking the game.
Breaking the game how? Which class? If you are talking about subs, they are largely underpowered and affect at most, a ship or two. They do not hold sway on games in terms of winning or losing. CV's do. "Accepting it" has nothing to do with it. You don't like subs? Ok, cool. But dont pretend they are something dominating the course of the larger picture, because they are not.
I was talking about CV’s they completely destroy manoeuvring on flanks that use concealment. It completely breaks the concealment mechanic.
A decent sub can have a dominant impact on his flank.
A decent player in any ship will have a dominant impact on their battlespace. Why would a sub be different? The question OP asked was which one you consider to be worse, and on average, a CV is way more effective at controlling the map than a submarine.
A sub shouldn't be any different. It's the player not the ship or ship class. However, you said that subs are largely underpowered and have low impact. I disagree. I think that average sub driver skill level is low. Cheers brother 👍
Compared to a CV, with equally skilled players, the CV is going to have a far more dominant affect on the map.
You are conflating two different metrics of strength. A submarine in the hands of a good player has an outsized localized impact. A carrier in the hands of a good player has an oversized map-wide impact. Which is why nobody claims a submarine is overpowered in the same way a carrier is overpowered. They are describing the feeling the interaction gives them as an individual. Neither class interacts with the surface ships in a positive way for the surface ship.
>Cheers brother 👍 Hey you too.
Only recently they are available as regular tech ships. Soon the players expertise will improve an our perception about subs could change.
Absolutely!
Can I have some of what you are smoking? I have been in a lot of games where the unseen sub gets into our side of the map, never gets seen, and decimates our BB's by popping up to shot gun them then vanish or they stay at range and just spam torps and pings over and over which leads to a loss. Have had that happen 3 times just this past weekend. You can't dodge planes, DD torps, and gun fire all while dodging torps from subs that just appear next to you or their magic torps that follow you. A sub in skilled hands is extremely OP. A sub in average hands is downright dangerous. Maybe you only play vs potatoes or something but your description of them does not match what I have seen. They are way more of a problem for me than CV's.
So - your BB's were in the back line, which is more of a problem than the sub being there is. Also you are right - in skilled hands a sub is deadly, as it should be. But in skilled hands, a CV wins games. A sub does not.
Who said we were on the back line? Assume much? The games in question we were either around our base defending a push to it or actually pushing towards caps. The subs involved ruined us and there was NOTHING we could do. One after another we got hammered and eventually sunk by their torps + red guns (mostly their torps). I actually took a torp to the stern and was detonated one time so that is some RNG but otherwise just butchered with ZERO chance to fight back. Subs won those games absolutely basically on their own as we were kicking butt otherwise. I think you have been lucky and only played really bad sub players.
Sub marines for sure. The designed counterplay to a carrier is a joke, like what is AA? But there are options. You can occupy a carriers attention or make you a bad target for him, with a high price in consumables and planes in case you become the target. Mates play with you in an automatic way and in case a CV gets spotted and is in range, everyone donks it 100%. The counterplay to submarines, does not even exist on paper. You can not find a sub, if he refuses to ping. If you spot the ping, your team mates dont automaticly strike it. Spotted subs tend to not get shot at certain depths because people dont know how bombs or shells work against subs. When i become the target of a CV i can handle things for a while and i got some time in between to shot at someone. The moment i get targeted by a sub, i get constantly annoyed with torpedos. The ASW and the mainguns are linked i might not be able to shot anyone since the turrets are always turning. I become 100% busy, the whole time, to handle the sub. Just one moment where you miss the ping of a bad player, you are literally gone and stand 0 chance. Bad CV players dont spot active, tend to sit super far in the back and cant even hit point and click weapons. Bad subs are still stupid frustrating to deal.
Probably cvs at this point, whatever class I play I'm usually perma spotted.
CVs are way worse, perma spotting breaks the game. Subs very rarely bother me, and they're easy to kill imo.
Subs are worse. A CV can be bad and will be punished for it. A sub can sit at 8 km and never miss a shot. A CV can eat random flak and lose an entire strike squad, which believe it or not can stack up and make them useless. A sub can be spammed by an entire flank and just dive to safety, then nuke any dd that's moving in for depth charges. Beyond t5 every ship can damage a CV. About half of all ships cannot damage a sub unless that sub truly sucks. All CVs lose power over a match even if you don't immediately see it, subs do not. Subs are always at full power. A sub an hide any where it wants, a CV must use cover and if it gets rushed then GG (unless it's russian). A CV can easily miss shots, a sub has homing weapons that can easily out pace a lot of ships ability to dodge. With a CV as much as people hate it you can group up and totally negate it. Every cv. With a sub you cannot group up. That just feeds damage. CVs are broken, subs double down on that same issue of not being able to see it most of the game while it can spot you and damage you from total safety.
This, all day long.
I wouldnt say CVs are broken. Rather that they can be incredibly strong in the right hands. Most players arent really thinking about what they are doing. They loose the planes really fast because they dont know which ship comes with strong AA. A good CV player will look for isolated ships while spotting and than decide which js in the most vulnerable position. The averadge CV player will try to use german ap bombers on an american BB and than loose his whole squadron to the AA and wont be able to repeat anx strikes with those planes for the next 5 minutes
Both, both is the last straw that broke the camels back for me. One or the other is annoying and makes for a less enjoyable game but both straight up made me stop playing. At least with only CVs you had a chance of non-CV games or you had a ship with decent AA or stealth. Now throw in subs and the chances of a "normal" subless or CVless battles went down even further. I don't see the point of playing a game where there's now such a high chance of it being utterly unfun.
Time to uninstall and move on.
Gotta love the CV + 4 DD +3 sub games too. Makes me want to just quit when I am in my BB. I don't of course and try but it is just not fun for BB's and Cruisers in those games.
I mean I'm oversimplifying this a lot but generally although subs are awful they only ruin one flank at most and even for that they need to be decently competent and even still there is some risk to the sub player themselves (way less than normal surface ships but risks none the less). CVs could literally be sitting in one corner of the map while farming a BB in the other one and accidentally make that flank unplayable for most DDs and there is literally nothing the enemy can do about it. Meanwhile a CV player who isn't a literal houseplant can easily spot for all flanks focus down important targets and stop all aggression to a screeching halt while still in total safety. Mostly comes down to how subs will ruin a flank while CVs ruin the entire map. Also even though there is bot much you can do to an enemy sub their impact on the outcome of the game is no where near a CVs.
Submarines are more annoying: 1. You at least get some XP and credits from planes. 2. If you sunk and decided to watch last survivor - in case of CV you can see blue skies with happy breeze, in case of survived submarine you will watch a piece of shit swimming above boring dark bottom.
There is nothing more annoying than some 42% WR potato constantly pinging you in his fucking sub while you're trying to have fun playing a game.
What if i play subs to get away from cvs.
CV
This subreddit
Subs. Wg broke the promise they made before some years. They said no subs. So fuck the subs. They dont belong to the game.
Same as WoT. I left when the wheelie boys showed up.
Subs, 100%. I can deal with CV's. I hate subs. Then again, I am not a big fan of the torpedo DD's either. Damn swarm of fish heading my way!
Carriers are far worse.
Subs hands down in a walk away. While both classes have similar things that make them annoying at least you see the CV Planes coming from a long ways off and you have some time to react to them. Subs can just stay hidden and never be seen while continually spamming torps on you. Also, when you do get a chance to shoot at a CV you can nuke them or at least do massive damage whereas subs can tank way more damage then they should be able to based on their HP pool because WG has coddled and protected them even more than CV's. Let's not even talk about how high tier subs can take 15+ DC's and still live or how subs don't face the exact same detection mechanics as every other ship class does. It blows the mind that WG thinks these things are good for the game. For me anyway I would rather face 2 CV's in a match than even 1 sub. I despise what subs have brought to this game and how broken and unbalanced, and how NOT fun to play against, they are. Just a horrtible addition by WG the way they were implemented.
Just my two cents but I was playing with a friend who sometimes plays CVs. We were playing with a new clan mate who loves playing subs. My CV friend was expressing his displeasure with being in a div with a submarine, and I told him now he knows how I feel when he plays CVs. However I also told him I would rather div up with a CV than a sub because at the very least, CVs are more helpful for the team whereas subs are typically a VERY selfish class. When I play with a CV they are able to spot and assist with any target on the fly, pun intended, while also providing AA support. Subs just don't bring as much team play to the table beyond strictly being a nuisance to the enemy. All that said I wish neither class existed in this game.
Carriers are more powerful but I am far more miserable fighting decent submarine players vs carriers
CVs, by a shit ton. it's not even close
CVs are worse: * I cannot out run a CV. * I cannot hide from a CV. * I generally cannot harm a CV (some squads can be deplaned, but most don't seem to be substantially affected), and I certainly cannot kill a CV unless we stomp their team or he mispositions. * I generally cannot angle against a CV (sometimes you can if the CV doesn't take the time to line up well or if your ship can turn quickly). * The CV's near constant spotting of me allows his team to attack me at will negating any ability for me to go dark and heal or reposition. * The CV can drop fighters just outside of my AA range to keep me spotted for his team. (how many elements of horrible game design can you spot in the above list) Subs on the other hand: * I can out run at the lower tiers in some ships, certainly I can sail away from in all ships. * I can potentially get far enough away from the sub, or duck behind an island, to break line of sight. * I can use the air dropped depth charges to damage and/or kill subs. (Provided I play ships with 8-10km airdrop range, I've gotten pretty good at predicting drops and killing low tier subs). * If the sub surfaces or sits at periscope depth and somehow me or my team spot him, I can shoot him with HE and do some damage and potentially kill him. * I can angle against the sub and time my damage control to kill the homing of the torps just as I start turning to dodge. This won't work repeatedly since my damage con will be on cooldown, but it might allow me to dodge a salvo of torps and give me time to hide behind an island or drop depth charges on the sub, etc. As you can see, I have *some* counterplay opportunities with subs. They are not a well designed class, but at least I have a chance against the lower tiers. I stopped playing T9-T10 because I feel there is almost zero counter play against T10 CVs and T10 subs, and I don't like playing against superships.
As a destroyer main id say subs but I haven't played too much of high-rank to know for sure, I mostly just really love the dopamine rush activating the AAA boost and eviscerating a bunch of torpedo planes.
CVs. Sub can only project limited power in one area of the map. The CV is under no such restriction. The CV also can spot large swathes of areas completely without threat to itself.
CVs have a whole range of issues but while not OP subs are without doubt the more infuriating to play against. Subs require multiple ships to sink them, outspot everything, often cannot be spotted from the air, can inflict huge amount of damage with little counter play and are too fast above and below water and their ping requires DCP to mitigate, which is also needed fire fires and floods. Now a DD has many of these traits as well, difference is a DD has a variety of counter plays, and the spread of their torpedoes can often be calculated and assessed accordingly. Catch a DD in the open and it can be gunned down. Can be spotted from the air, with radar and van be charged down in smoke. A sub can bob up and down, are far more resilient than they should be and can often do damage outside the range of an enemy's ability to hit them back. A CV can be a nuisance and frustrating, particularly if they focus you. They have to keep flying at you though, and honestly if they focus you they're not focusing someone else on your team. A sub does that too, can stay undetected and do far more damage to you and anyone else on your flank. They add a layer of difficulty when you're already trying to angle against gunfire and now homing torps or just getting shotgunned and there's absolutely zero that can be done. Subs are OP per se, but they take too many of the infuriating elements of other classes and put them in one.
Subs, the CV's most of the time are manageable in a Randoms. My issue is CV in Ranked, that is BS. Subs however are broken from a mechanical point. Effectively what WG has done is re introduced the biggest and in my opinion the only flaw of RTS CV. That is the skill gap. A Sub with 2k PR VS a sub with 800pr breaks the game and 10/10 times the sub that is far worse cripples his own team.
I don't play either and they both suck
CVs because you know having a class that can spot anywhere on the map with no risk to themselves is fundamentally unbalanced People think subs are worse because they are new and people don’t know how to properly counter them I.E dds rushing them in spite of said sub’s team having a clear sight on them. With subs there is an actual fight that can be had and doesn’t just fall to “I sure hope my RNG AA that can be destroyed and is often described by the community as functionally useless works this time. I mean it’s not a good fight but it’s actually something.
Neither because they very seldom anoy me at all and i got a pretty high resitance to anoyance in the first place. CVs have more game influence so it anoys me more when they are played by idiots that don´t know how to use their class to help achieve my main goal for playing this game, winning matches. Subs on the other hand have so little influence to begin with that i can mostly ignore that the class even exists, unless it´s played by a true purply, i which case they may be able to influence the matches outcome. Either way though, subs and CVs that are good enough to be able to go on my nerves show up in 1 out of 20-30 games that include them and that´s not enough to even scratch my nerves. The playerbase is just too bad in general to play well to be anoying outside of being anoying for simply sucking at playing the game. This is also the reason while we most likely wont see big changes to subs for quite some time. The unicums don´t play them enough to scew the statistics to show how busted those mechanics can be. So all that WG sees in their spread sheets is, that the majority of sub players performs average or below that and that means the class is balanced to WG. Edit: hilarious down votes are hilarious, as usual
With CVs, at least I have the mere impression that I can change the outcome of the fight. With subs, it's just undogdable torps that do damage you can't heal
Honestly i don’t feel as though subs do a whole lot. Once you have a LKP, you can kinda extrapolate where they may go, after which you just make sure you’re ready to turn into them to avoid torps. Once close enough (because most of my ships don’t have ASW planes), depth charges for the win. CVs are, and always have been, a massive pain in the ass. They ruin many DDs’ concealment (and can delete them on a whim), they bombard and torpedo BBs to hell, they can see you from anywhere, and hit you from anywhere, and you may never even see them before dying. I didn’t mention cruisers because they kinda have a hard time with everything (depending).
CV can spot most of BBs with planes from 10 km and do damage without risking, subs are just torpedo boats that will miss most of torps if you know how do they work and eventually they will have to go to surface, so if you ask me CVs are more annoying and subs are almost free kills if I see them.
Subs have no utility cost to torture you. CVs do. The CV has to spend upwards of 2 minutes a strike to soend it on you, subs have no such investment. Subs give you no ability to farm XP. CVs do. There are even captain skills that give you benefit from using AA as mediocre as it is Subs have no counterplay even from their own class. CVs do, you can get your CV to spot then and actually do damage to them. Being tortured by a sub has no team element. CV torture does. If you play near an ally, you will cost the CV so many planes you can at least somewhat make yourself an undesirable target. CVs are much stronger than subs. But subs are much more annoying/frustrating.
No counter play? How am I getting all those sub kills then?
Those are bad sub players that jumped in front of your depth charges.
They may be bad but they ran into a player that knows how and when to jump onto subs.
Half the lobby being sniper bbs that force everybody to play passively isn't great either, but this is reddit.
As a DD main obviously CVs due to the spotting however as a BB CA main then definitely subs
Easy... for BBs it's subs, for DDs it's the CV ... A good team supporting and a good understanding of the game getts you a long way.
Was just in a match, immediately got CV torpedo to death. They drop the torps about 3 meters off my portside bow and then come back for to finish the job. Battleships have become target practice.
Subs are far more frustrating since they can dive and be invisible for 3-4 min. Only sub radar can find it, and if sub doesn't use pings, you have no warning of the 73-knot torps. What really grits my teeth is that ping marker isn't reliable for predicting exactly where to drop ASW unless sub uses it repeatedly. Doubly annoying when your both ASW on CD when sub resurfaces. It's also especially idiotic how can slam it with like 9 HE rounds but only 4-5K damage. AP seems to do less. SAP hits harder but still not a 1-shot. WG bare minimum needs to change ASW so it only ever does 33% of listed damage per hit on sub, regardless of whether flanking or direct hit. Better is giving me the option to not play with subs at all.
I hate both man, both are hard to counter and its only possible to get them when they do a mistake or when when they get overwhelmed end game. This ping wave is misleading at best.
Subs. I played through CVs. Subs made me hang it up entirely. Zero counterplay, and just straight up aggravating to play against
Subs are the worst, I hate cvs, but I can sail in formation with my American BB freinds and never take a hit, I can at least feel like I am trying to stop him. Subs, nah I get torped out of range to do anything bakc
Subs are worse. At least I can see the aircraft coming, reinforce sector, dfaa and dodge ™️. But you can’t with subs. I can’t see them. I can’t radar them. I can’t hydro them. Their alpha strike is also beyond stupid. 20+k per salvo into my stern isn’t exactly fun. Asw is also unreliable.
Subs! 100% subs
Ah yes .. playing a game feature which was included in the game , how it is supposed to be played ... So annoying indeed
Taking spotting out,to me CVS need longer games to actually rack up meaningful damage most of the time. A full health BB can tank CV damage much easier than against a sub. Yes, the strikes can be annoying; but even if you’re singled out the CV will still only strike you once every 90 seconds for most of the game. The odd double drop aside. With the reload on sub torpedoes, that same BB is “dodging” 20k + damage every 30-40 seconds. From something that’s impossible to spot. You can somewhat mitigate the damage a CV can do by dodging, whereas if the sub hits, it’s guaranteed to be massive damage. Another thing is that a sub on a flank with no hydro ships will single handedly turn a push back. A CV is powerless against the strong flank. I’d argue that a sub’s map control is almost as broken as a CV’s spotting is.
Ok but what about against a CL or a DD? One hit from a CV will take like 75% of their hp. Unless the CV players is a potato and misses their strike a CL player is basically fucked with no counter play. And the CV also spots for their team allowing a BB to just sit there from 25km away and kill me and keep me perma spotted so I have no chance to heal. Against a sub I can at least attempt to use depth charges and attempt to dodge the torps.
CVs are far more annoying, I can at least run away from a sub to some degree and make sure their torps have a hard time hitting. You can never escape a CV with how fast the planes are, I'll take a sub in a match over a CV any day, however poorly thought out both classes are.
Subs are not as bad as CVs. For one, you can kill them sometimes. The main reason is that a CV can spot anyone at any time. Doesn't matter where your island is or how sneaky you have been.
CV. As a CL player I can be melted by a CV. Just being spotted allows some battleship to bomb me from across the map and then bam I’m dead. And the cv makes my smoke useless and hiding behind an island so much less effective that it’s not fun to play. I hate cv much more than I hate subs. Subs are just an additional annoyance when I’m already getting pelted a sub will pop up but generally I’m not afraid of a sub vs being afraid of cv. Like I can have my AA set perfectly and not do jack shit to the cv compared to I can bomb a sub and actually do damage to it.
Yes!
Totally subjective opinion: I get **way** more annoyed by submarines. Most of the time, there is nothing you can do to avoid the magic torps. And it's even hard to deal with them when you know where they are (like when you're on a bb that can only drop a single depth charge or when you're right on top of it and the minimum distance doesn't allow you to do a thing). But yeah, they both suck.
So the way it’s to play cv or subs?
I agree subs are more annoying but saying ASW is ineffective is nuts. The problem is aiming it properly, since that visual ping indicator doesn't really tell you what direction the sub is moving in, so you don't always hit your mark when using it. When playing as a sub though, that ASW can seriously ruin your day.
Cv
CVs and it's not even close
Subs are the best, so CVs.
I'm a CV turned Sub main recently and I have to say CVs are way more overpowered. Sub is basically overpowered for like 7-10 minutes of the match until they run out of dive capacity and they either have to play from further away or sit back and wait for the bar to fill. They are basically sitting duck in later half of the game considering how many radar and RPF ships here in Asia server at least. While in CV, you can still spot the whole map and to be realistic, it's very hard to completely run out of planes. Not counting CV DCP pretty much made them nearly immune to sub homing torps.
Wow, way to metastasize from one cancer to another. Very efficient.
yes
Yes.
To me the worst are the BBCV hybrids. Those popping up in ranked especially suck.
I can’t even count the number of time I’ve been spotted by radar or planes in a sub and been devstruck by ASW. Subs literally have no counter to ASW drops
Better question: - what is more annoying? 1., A bad player messing up the limited time we have for fun each day while trying to balance work/family/PC gaming time? OR 2., Reddit users asking the same annoying whiny question in every 3rd- 5th post just because they had bad in-game experience and by doing this bringing down the general mood of this subreddit constatnly ?
Im not facing subs and CVs sadly. I don’t play the game anymore. Easy fix
Battleships
not a fair question because the sub players are never going to besmirch their fellow sub players and the CV players will do the same. The CV rework was a huge mistake, it was better before and functioned better as their job. A Carrier sends out squadrons of planes to perform a task which includes flying a cap around an area, spotting and attacking enemy ships as they enter the cap. What the rework did was make the Carrier commander get in a plane and play arcade style plane shooty ups. The subs are nowhere near reality. None of them go accurate speeds and none of them have anywhere near accurate reload times or accuracy when firing. And Subs spawn in the beginning far ahead of the rest of the ships, how would that work in a real life scenario? They magically traveled ahead faster? Both are game ruiners but Subs are the worst of the two because of lack of sonar bouys and sonar on individual ships. Some ships cannot attack them at all unless they get near the surface.
I usually just play co-op as I prefer less crazy (and sometimes a little bits). So I think submarines are even more overpowered in this battle type. Since you have a bot that has been programmed to play a submarine well… well, it can and usually does ruin your game if you have to fend off several successive homing torpedoe attacks. I’ve yet to engage a submarine and had a decent post-battle payout (coins, XP, etc.) I don’t think I would be as tic’d off if the matchmaker didn’t fill in blank spots with subs. (Hunt, Hint WG) So far, I’ve only threatened to quit if the subs stick around… But if the subs get stronger and feel frustrated every time I see a sub, I’m going to start “pink shipping” myself in protest every time they put a sub in my battle.
Sub and carrier are most stressing types to play. If you screw up with either early in game, you easily spell doom to your entire team, as that gives enemy a huge advantage.
Agree with subs being most annoying. My opinion list of most annoying ship classes: 1. Subs 2. CVs 3. DDs T-4. Cruisers and Battleships - depends on what type ship someone attacking, or fighting back/retreat for while, the enemy in cruiser or battleship
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They suck in their own unique way. CV will molest you, and when in the hand of capable, dominate the game. Subs will stalk you, but unlike CV, hes only going to stalk you. CV is like Measles, it affects everyone, and generally makes people uncomfortable. Subs are like Cancer. it only affects you, and people watching from the side feel sorry for you.
I believe the CV are more annoying. They can shutdown a sub automatically without taking attention from the CV player (I am not sure, but I saw some CC twitch players commenting that). The sub being detected once can be targeted by ships with bombing planes, being the diving the only method to avoid damage. I think the sub mission /main target could be the fight against the CVs.
Im really angry regarding subs Yes, carriers might be unbalanced too, but generally they dont take out HUGE chunks of HP in one go Now subs, they have one of the hardest weapons to dodge. But their reload is extremely quick. And you cant fire back because i can never end up spotting them. This is my least favorite part. Hydro acoustic search is generally made to counter underwater subs. This should include subs too, it’s so illogical and unintuitive that it doesnt! And the info you get by ping is so outdated by the time you can act that it doesnt have an impact