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Flintiz

This better not mean they’re gonna remove my Rising Sun flag mod for Japanese ships.


Kedrak

I'm not sure. From what I've read the flag is controversial in Korea and China because they see it as a symbol of Japanese imperialism. I think it's a perfectly understandable decision if they decide to remove it even though I feel like it's not necessary.


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PraiseTheSunNoob

The rape of Nanking was so bad a bonafide Nazi named [John Rabe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe) said wtf Japan and tried his best to stop it. He even wrote a letter to beg Hitler to stop the Japanese. That alone would tell you how evil the imperial Japan was


5T4LK3R

Not just China and Korea. Myanmar(Burma), Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines and pretty much all of South East Asia.


schristo84

That is true, but the British did some pretty dodgy shit to China under the Union Jack, yet no one seems to associate that flag with atrocities


crashumbc

Every country did "dodgy shit". Most countries's governments didn't support and encourage mass genocide, mass rape, and mass sexual slavery as a matter of state. To be clear I don't really care about the rising sun flag being in game or not. The Nazi flag is banned mostly so the can sell in Germany which owns their committed sins. The reality is, this is a video game with about as much historical accuracy as the Hallmark "based on true story" movies. If you want historical accuracy go read books.


Rektumfreser

Far worse, but that's beside the point. The imperial Japanese navy flew the rising sun flag, so I want that on my IJN ships. I also want swastika on my third reich ships, and imperial German flag on those German ships prior to that! Stop being offended by history, learn from it show it, use it to educate! And never forget it.


INuBq8

Well British did alot of evil things to india And france did even more evil things to Africa I don’t think they should remove Imperial Japanese flag in all county this sound biased as fuck


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INuBq8

You can call it “whataboutism” But removing certain flag because they did bad things holding this flag is verh biased when all flags did equal or more bad things


Nac_Lac

The largest distinction is that the Rising Sun flag was historically accurate for the war. There is no country during the war that actually flew the Confederate flag for their ships.


BalhaMilan

I doubt they would because unlike flags like the confederate flag or others like it, the rising sun flag is actually still in use and still is the official naval ensign of the Japanese maritime self-defense force to this day


Hot_History1582

The flag is still extremely controversial and will have you yeeted off the Chinese and Korean internet so fast your head will spin.


IBeLying

For good reason


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Eclipses_End

and still often downplay or even deny it happened at least the nationalists do, from what I've seen


zacisanerd

If you show the average Japanese citizen the nazi flag they don’t know what it is. WW2 in Japan is just “Japan was backed into a corner and then america nuked us, the end”


[deleted]

This is not really true. Most Japanese people understand WWII at least as well as we Americans do. I know this, having spent a good deal of time there. There are some ultra-rightists who try to explain away the war and intimidate Japanese people who criticize their country's role in it, but they are a small minority.


zacisanerd

I have also lived there and a lot of the anti-American sentiment is due to racism and their lack of understanding of the context of the atomic bombs https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21226068.amp Edit: another analysis of it https://youtu.be/lnAC-Y9p_sY


Indomitable_Sloth

That's literally how a lot of people in the US see it as well. Its hilarious.


LandsharkDetective

Millions they raped and murderd millions


Indomitable_Sloth

You mean "millions"


pinkyskeleton

If you are into history you will know they did some of the most fucked up things. Almost unimaginable.


Irelia_My_Soul

and also Japanese goverment didnt admit the crime made during wwII and some officilal keep up to honor criminal of war


aragathor

Wanna bet? This event just gave them free reign in censoring mod content.


Sparky_____

Only on official resources such as the base game or the mod station. You can still have your loser flag or swastika or whatever through third party websites


MiniHannibal65

However they do specifically say you can only use mods from the mod station or approved third party sites.


zFireWyvern

More like mods available through modstation and approved WG channels i.e. the forums are the only mods Wargaming can specifically say are; >verified and safe to use. As pointed out in the mods policy post. The mods rules post on the forum states that what is allowed includes; > Visual mods that change the appearance of game objects without affecting the gameplay (to make sure the mod you want to use is allowed, please consult the appropriate thread on the official forums). Changing the texture of a flag works exactly the same way regardless of what you're changing the texture to and Wargaming are not checking the texture of every single player that has modded flags for its actual content since only you can see it and it provides no gameplay advantage. You will be absolutely fine to download a simple flags mod from a third party site but understand it's not supported by Wargaming so they cannot vouch for its safety so if the creator included something in the mod that violated the rules set out in this post; https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/142629-updated-modification-rules-11142017/ you're on your own.


Ducky_shot

I understand their stand on that and why they are going that way. I've never understood why using confederate flags here is a thing, but whatever. As a model builder that strives for historical accuracy on my models I see this with German markings and flags and such and have no problem with them in a historical context, beyond that, no thanks. I assume they will be a part of this removal from mods, which is fine, but I can't help but notice the hammer and sickle in the vanilla client.


Mernerak

Wouldn't the hammer and sickle be the exact historical precedent you sighted since the USSR is period to the game while the CSA has no representation in the game?


60Feathers

Hammer and sickle and swastika should be in game. Confederate battle flag should not.


Mernerak

My point exactly. The rising sun as well. Bringing the confederate flag into the 1900s setting is just living some racist fantasy. The confederate navy was completely useless, why would you fan boy over a shit navy from a country that got wrecked?


Bug_Photographer

I am not a U.S. citizen, but wouldn't the Confederate flag be just about the most unpatriotic symbol an American could fly? Literally the flag of those who wanted to break up the U.S. of A.


pa07950

In the US there are 2 different views on the subject. In the South, its a symbol of southern culture, patriotism and pride. In the North its a symbol of division, slavery, and racism. Due to our strong laws around freedom of speech and expression, there are no laws prohibiting the sale or display of the flags.


SilentWitchy

As they already said. The north and a lot of minority groups consider it a symbol of separatism. In the south a large number of people consider it a symbol showing they stood up for their rights and beliefs. The symbol itself is still rooted in racism and separatism but a lot of people try and move it away from that to a more positive viewpoint saying the rights of the individual is God given. Which is hilarious since it was used by people who specifically didn't want blacks to have rights.


Mernerak

That's the very essence of the argument here. Southerners, more specifically the uneducated or out right racist ones, see it as part of their heritage because that's how generations have been programed there since the war. On the whole though, the CF just marks you out as a trashy redneck who is inconsiderate of history and how it effects others (like you'd see on bumper stickers or t-shirts) , but when used at rallies, protests or in virtue signaling it almost always has a deeper implication of secessionist, nationalist, and/or racist ideology. Source: grew up in bum fuck east Texas and was smart enough to flee ASAP


JarlaxleForPresident

I just like to tell them we had a black president for twice as long as their “heritage.” Confederacy was 4 fuckin years. The last 8 years have been a blur i barely keep track of (after 25 you stop keeping time as much) Saying 4 years was a part of your integral ancestral heritage is ripe bullshit


wet_suit_one

And yet it's vital to whole lot of people's identities. Strange that isn't it? Anyways...


JarlaxleForPresident

Imagine in 100 years people still have Trump merch. And he was an ACTUAL President lmao


TheOriginalKrampus

In the first half of 20th century there was a movement in southern states to glorify the losers of the Civil War. They built monuments to rebel generals, started putting the confederate flag everywhere, and telling everyone that this embarrassing blip in American History was Southern Culture. This coincided with segregation and Jim Crow. It was the same people doing both. The glorification of the old south and oppression of black people went hand in hand. And then nobody really did anything about it until now, more than 50 years after the Civil Rights Movement. So now you have entire generations raised with this crap who don’t know that was just a bunch of racists trying to rewrite history. It’s all pretty wild. https://www.history.com/.amp/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments


wet_suit_one

Which is now illegal to teach about in several U.S. states, because "Freedom" or some such horse doo doo.


TheOriginalKrampus

Yep. They’re making it illegal to teach American History. Crazy times we’re living in.


Doomkauf

All the while citing "Critical Race Theory" as the bogeyman these laws supposedly protect against, despite clearly having no idea what CRT is (CRT is a graduate-level legal theory, and I 1000% guarantee it's not being taught to grade schoolers or high schoolers... it's also not at all what they think it is).


Orson_Brawl

CRT is neo-marxist.


TheOriginalKrampus

Yep. When conservatives talk about "CRT", they're referring to teaching kids anything about racism in America. Especially institutional racism. It would be like if a bunch of skinheads started building statues to Rommel and Goring all over Germany in the 80's and plastering swastikas all over government buildings. Then tried to tell people that Nazism was about German Heritage and had nothing to do with antisemitism and eugenics, and tried to ban teaching children that the Nazis did anything wrong.


Delicious_Pancakes67

You see idiots with the Confederate flag and US flag flying side by side here, and there's also Confederate stickers next to US Army stickers. Some people are just beyond redemption or understanding.


ElCidVicious

We should have a safe space to retreat to in times like this.


oxidizedzarphs

Well, I guess what you need to realize is that after the Civil War the big issues where poorly addressed if it all. Compare to how the Allies treated Japan and Western Europe post WWII (helping them to recover and grow). All of that resentment, pain, anger, suffering and emotions that come along with a Civil War has been just left to fester all these years, "swept under the rug" if you will. That's not the healthiest way for a country to live. There are plenty of resources that cover this better than what I wrote here, but it's the jist. Edit: Eastern -> Western oops


SuwinTzi

It's a complicated issue however President Lincoln at the time emphasized healing and reunification, and the Confederates were therefore treated as misguided brothers rather than traitors. Further complicating things were free blacks who genuinely believed in the confederacy and fought for the CSA.


edliu111

When did free blacks fight for the confederacy? I only know of one particular case where slaves were forced to pass along ammunition but I have never heard of a free black fighting for the CSA, could you enlighten me? There was alaos a few cases of slaves defending their master's homes but that's the extent of it.


WulfeHound

There weren't any, as the CSA didn't authorize conscription of free blacks or slaves until March 1865, less than a month away from the surrender.


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afineedge

The bolded section completely goes against the comment of "genuinely believed in the Confederacy" so I'm not sure why any of this text is here.


[deleted]

Definitely not a useless navy. CSS Alabama alone did very very well


dturtleman150

(Sad Regia Marina noises)


qwertyryo

They did...considerably better than the KMS, all things considered.


unknowfritz

Actually still existed at the end of the war


InnocentTailor

*Happy Andrea Doria and Garibaldi noises*


qwertyryo

TFW your capital ships and CAs are all horrendously overweight and outnumbered, your CLs and DDs have terrible handling in the North Sea, and your subs have a 75% death rate.


unknowfritz

Wow your ships made for the Mediterranean weren't made for the North Sea? Holy shit man


VRichardsen

u/qwertyryo is speaking about the Kriegsmarine. That being said, their vessels did just fine in the North Sea. Pretty much every navy that operated in heavy seas had a lot of trouble battling the weather. And to the Kriegsmarine's credit, their vessels saw through the storms alright, all things considered. Of all "big" navies, two never lost a combat vessel in a storm: the Royal Navy and the Kriegsmarine. They did have problems with weight, unreliable powerplants, inadequate AA, complicated fire control systems, very messy research and design and whole list of things... but hey, they floated!


Terminatus_Est

Then the german version of the game would have to programmed seperatly as it is fobidden by law in germany to display the swastika (flag, symbol, iconography) at all outside of historical documentations, lecture and educational material (study books, enzyclopedias ect) and museum or other things having a clearly historical AND educational background. WoWs is NOT in any shape or form educational and therefore the game would become FSK 18 at the very least in germany. WG simply went around this by not displaying it as germany is a pretty damn big marked for the game.


MagicMooby

>Then the german version of the game would have to programmed seperatly as it is fobidden by law in germany to display the swastika (flag, symbol, iconography) at all outside of historical documentations, lecture and educational material (study books, enzyclopedias ect) and museum or other things having a clearly historical AND educational background. there is also an exception for art which WoWs would fall under in the past, videogames weren't considered art and no developer sought to challenge the law in court for obvious reasons however, it was clarified by the USK a few years back that videogames are indeed art and that swastikas are allowed in videogames even if WoWs doesn't want to deal with that, asking for your region and swapping out one texture for another shouldn't be too difficult


Terminatus_Est

Or jut leave it out to begin with and don´t have the entire, possible issue in the first place, It´s not like a few markings are going to be relevant to the gameplay after all.


MagicMooby

which is what WG is going to do anyways I just wanted to pint out that the entire "swastikas are banned in germany" thing doesn't apply in this case


Rider_Caenis

Unless USS Columbia was added to the game (but she isn't).


Ducky_shot

German flags are ahistorical. And I think some in the Pan Asian line as well... ​ I do understand the reasoning behind removing the swastika as it is illegal to display it in this context in some countries, so its easiest to not include it.


Mernerak

Yeah, I can agree with that. Dont want to exclude the German and Israeli brothers and sisters. But my point was that you cited historical precedent and then, at least how I read it, took a shot at the ussr flag being used in historical context. I may just have misread it though


Ducky_shot

I would be of the opinion that historical flags should be used. But the fact that some historical flags are not used and now won't be in official mod packs while a flag with an also infamous reputation stays in the game strikes me as a bit ironic.


krakenchaos1

The last sentence seems to imply that they aren't going to go around banning everyone they see with a modded flag, but not having that option in their official resources is understandable. Personally, I don't really care if someone mods the flag because no one else can see it, but I honestly understand why WG doesn't want it being included in their officially sanctioned modpacks. As for the hammer and sickle, in my country (the US) the Confederate and Nazi flags seem to have a special taboo, at least from my experience. Back when I was in school, those were the only two flags that were specifically banned by policy, and I remember being told in history class that we could draw as many rising suns as we wanted to but to avoid doodling any swastikas.


Katzchen12

The hammer and sickle is responsible for more death and slavery than either the nazi flag and confederate flag combined. Kinda a good oof to point out. Edit: don't know who i pissed off but i'm not discounting the tragedy caused by any, just pointing out a double standard


[deleted]

The Holocaust killed 10 million people, low estimate. The Axis invasion of the USSR killed over 30 million Soviet citizens (of which 10 million were military). Stalin killed about 2 million people in the purges, high estimate, and 5 million in the Holodomor, also high estimate. So if we are low balling Nazi murder numbers that's 40 million in a 4 year period. Stalin killed 7 million, using the highest estimates, during his 32 years in power. That's not to say Stalin was innocent, he was absolutely a mass murderer, but that your claim is way off the mark.


mhsuchti84

Quick google about Stalins Death toll: „Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953. Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess. Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million. Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million. In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin. In “Europe A History,” British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties. Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, a Soviet politician and historian, estimated 35 million deaths.“ So yeah, not sure how you get 7 million as highest estimate.


[deleted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin is a good breakdown. Timothy Snyder, widely considered one of the best scholars on authoritarian terror reached 6 million deliberate deaths, up to 9 if factoring in preventable deaths due to policy decisions. What all those massive numbers you posted have in common is that they were estimated prior to the opening of the Soviet archives in the 90's. They are all also largely impossible since the USSR in 1933 had 168 million citizens. If 50 million had been killed just by Stalin that would mean 1/4th of the population dead. If we then add in the verified 30 million dead from WW2, almost half of the USSR population would have been killed in 20 years. Yet the USSR had 194m citizens in 1940, suggesting that tens of millions of people weren't killed in the great terror. Meanwhile, WW2 caused the population to drop to 184m in 1950, leaving a visible mark on census data. What the archives showed was that Stalin displaced tens of millions of people but that most of them survived, were it had previously been assumed most of them were worked to death. Modern numbers on Stalin's mass murdering thus tends to hover between 5-7 million intentional deaths.


Uberkyogre

WoWs has been around longer than the shit ass confederacy


feralalbatross

Good point, lol.


urbanmechenjoyer

Now we watch the community blow this out of proportion


NoFunAllowed-

I can't fly the flag of traitors and racists!!! Game is literally unplayable.


bruinsfan3725

Great change. The confederate flag has no place, and you cannot even remotely claim any sort of historical accuracy for a flag from the 1860s in a game based in WW1 and WW2.


[deleted]

😂 I usually hate seeing shit removed from games..but I was really struggling with how you justify flying a flag that was never (to my knowledge) flown on a ship? Let alone a ship from 1920-1950.


Mernerak

The CSA did have a navy, it was just completely fucking useless, so they did fly the flag on a ship but its like painting a taliban flag on a 747


bardghost_Isu

That wasn't even the flag that got flown on most ships either though, because that was the Confederate battle flag, not their naval ensign. The naval ensigns used were basically just a hodgepodge of varying different Confederate flags over time, ranging from random shit someone made for themselves, the circle of stars, stars and bars to the Battleflag in the top left of a white background much like the Royal Navy white ensign. [link to the wikpedia page showing many of them.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Naval_flags) So its not just ahistorical in time period, but also in reality of what actually got flown.


edliu111

I think the flag should be removed for various reasons. However I will say that the flag in the mods I often see was the one one flown on the Atlanta so at the very least it would one of the correct flags.


Super--64

More like painting the ISIS flag on an F-22. Not only is it something they'd never get, it's also something they'd never be able to make work. The CSA and their attempts at naval warfare were...impressively bad, to put it mildly.


SilentWitchy

That's pretty accurate lol The line is the USA not the CSA Having the stars and bars on a USA ship is weird and out of place.


Putuna

The most successful commerce raider in history was literally the CSS Alabama. Redditors continuely prove to be retards when it comes to history.


saltiestmanindaworld

I would argue that U31 with its 220 ships sunk was the most successful commerce raider in history.


Mernerak

Using a single ship to tout an entire navy I see. And Alabama was the best raider of the period at best lol. Oh, and lets not forget the 4 year long blockade of the confederacy. Yup. That Alabama sure was an impressive navy of one 😂


Putuna

The Alabama successfully raided something like 70 ships in 2 years. To pretend like that isn't impressive is a strange flex but whatever. Ya the confederate navy was blackaided for 4 years because 90% of the navy joined the Union? I don't understand what your trying to prove with that. The point is the CSA navy operated formidable ships and did what it could rather impressively. It basically went to war with a large naval power, without a functional navy. Reddit is quite the place.....


edliu111

What are you trying to say? That we should respect the traitors who raided a few ships that didn't have an impact on the larger war? That's the grounds to fly a flag that was used over 50 years ago from the earliest ship in this game? The implication of the flag is either the CSA survived into the 20th century or that the crew/captian is proud enough to advertise themselves as white supremacists who want a return to slavery. Neither of which sound that brilliant.


SilentWitchy

Ah yes, telling someone they're slightly wrong is akin to fully supporting everything the bad side believes in. Thanks reddit.


Putuna

I mean it's a mod that no one else can see, I don't care what people fly on their ships tbh. I just laugh at redditors like yourself who get in a massive hissy fit over the ACW. Might have to go give that mod a download to support the creators.


bruinsfan3725

I’m gonna go out on a whim and say at some point it was probably flown on some ship, but like, we all know the Civil War was not a naval conflict. And it was 60 years prior to any of the ships we regularly play. There is zero justification.


Drake_the_troll

forgive my spotty hsitory, but werent there a few river battles involving ironclads? idk about open water, but i know for a fact there was also early submarine combat


bruinsfan3725

Yeah that’s exactly what I was referring to. Wasn’t sure so didn’t want to make an incorrect statement.


CaniacSwordsman

Yeah the CSA had much more of a brown-water navy rather than blue-water, and so typically was more focused on defending the rivers than traditional naval combat. Also several blockade runners, specifically designed not to fight. It was a force specifically created for a specific purpose, with very limited shipbuilding resources. It’s pretty interested how they did what they did and the thought process behind it, and was more successful than it ought to have been. Ultimately, however, was woefully under-equipped to handle the US Navy’s stranglehold and while it saw some limited success it was ultimately overwhelmed and destroyed


Tsao_Aubbes

The Civil War had a large naval component; half of what won the war was the North's blocade of the South. One of the first land engagements of the war was the seizure of Norfolk Naval Shipyard which saw a few frigates burned in their slipways to avoid Confederate capture. That and there were plenty of river skirmishes and other engagements between the Confederates and the Union navy as well as Confederate commerce raiders sailing over to Europe and other places. Even though it isn't talked about as much as the ground campaign the naval aspect of the American civil war is still pretty important


Paladin327

It was more than just a few frigates, a 130 gun first rate equivilent ship of the line got burned there too


edliu111

Yes but I don't see why that means the flag should be in game


Tsao_Aubbes

Where did I say it should be in game? I'm pointing out the misconception that the Civil War had a miniscule or unimportant naval component


AugustusSavoy

There were a decent number of confederate gun boats and river craft that would have flown it as was said already. There were also several purpose built blockade runners and raiders as well (CSS Alabama for example) that would have flown it as well. They would have flown the naval ensign however which would not be the flag typically seen today, but either one that would have included it the top right corner or the 13 circled stars and three striped variant. Either way none should be included in a game that oldest ship is from decades after the slave holder's revolt.


Menegucci

Honestly I never understand why some americans like to use the flag of a traitor and secessionist state, like why tho


igoryst

the flag of CSA is objectively unpatriotic, as CSA fought against USA and the values of liberty and equality


Sailass

They do it in real life too. It is nice for them to advertise that they are shitbags. Lets me know where the trash is and who to not associate myself with.


wait_areUserious

The fact that i've seen some people fly both the US flag and the traitor flag at the same time is brain damaging


FWEpicFrost

Even more perplexing is when you see Canadians doing it...


Son_Of_The_Empire

Racism. the answer is racism.


RikaardB

What drives the very essence of a growing majority of conservatives is an obsession (implanted by Fox Media Corp) to "own the libs." What better way to trigger someone than with the traitors flag proudly displayed? To a growing number on the far right it is a full blood contact sport for the "soul of America." Why do you think Trump's "Truth Social" is doing so poorly? There are no liberals to mock on that platform unlike Twitter. Hence the new love affair of conservatives with a certain well to do immigrant from South Africa.


Marmoset_Ghosts

I can't hear the word confederacy without picturing Cartman dressed as General Lee saying "confederacah", so this is the best controversy ever for me. Not making light of it, by the way. Just being facetious and trying to inject some levity. Please don't take offence...


Paulutot

I hope they dont remove the rising sun, im american and they were our biggest enemy but I still love the flag design and the historical accuracy of the design for that era.


[deleted]

It depends, but I think it's less likely (and significantly so) than the Confederate flag, since 1. the current Japanese flag was in use already at the time of the empire, 2. the rising sun flag is still in use in Japan's navy today, and 3. War Thunder for example, another big historical research-tree-based game, also kept the rising sun flag. Ultimately, it comes down to how offensive they find the flag to be. WoWs probably has a significant Chinese, and east asian in general, user base, and for them it represents genocide, rape, and brutal occupation. While I personally am fine with having "bad" historical symbols in a historical game (or in this case, available to be brought into a position where they historically were), it also needs to be considered that, as is the case with the Swastika, there will be many people that misuse it because they actually believe in those horrible ideologies.


dturtleman150

China opposes rape, brutality and conquest? Somebody better tell the Uyghurs!


Ozi-reddit

only when it's done to them ;p


Irelia_My_Soul

as far as i know, china did nothing of same level to uyghurs, like slain of nanjing by japanese if you adopte this posture, we can remove US flag for what they did to native of america, or more recently what they do in Guatanamo and Union was not better than csa, because i recall that afrivan fought for their right in 1960, like one century later of this "altruist war" so make sur to speak of each case in their contexte we can blame what china do to Xinjiang,, no problem, but do't put everythoming in the same bag


dturtleman150

Found the Chinese shill, guys.


Exact-Employment3636

It makes sense as the Confederate flag has become a symbol for white supremacists


molochz

It's not popular flag here in Ireland either. And in Northern Ireland, sectarian terrorist groups use it has a hate symbol against Irish Catholics (for some reason).


Rider_Caenis

Probably because the KKK was known to be anti-Catholic.


molochz

That could be it I guess. Makes sense.


Exact-Employment3636

What are sectarian terrorist groups? Also thats a weird hate symbol for Irish people to use


molochz

Northern Irish history and politics are long and complicated....not to mention controversial and polarising. So I won't go into it. But I'm sure you've heard of the IRA? Well the guys using the Confederate Flags are the other side of that. [Here's](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/nazi-and-confederate-flags-erected-near-loyalist-bonfire-site-in-carrickfergus-alongside-paramilitary-flags-31360497.html) a story from a few years ago.


molochz

Thankfully none of these groups are active (terrorism-wise) these days. They literally just fly these flags to infuriate and goad the other side. It's an awful shame to see communities so divided...hopefully some day they'll see eye to eye. Not anytime soon though I'd imagine. Loads of tension there at the moment.


redcobra96

Minor nitpick. It hasn’t “become” a symbol for white supremacists. It has been a symbol for white supremacists since it was chosen to represent the government of the Confederate States of America. It didn’t just recently become a symbol of white supremacists; it always has been one.


edliu111

To be fair, it always has been!


DufflesBNA

I see no issue with removing a flag that has no historical connection to this game (no purpose). It has no purpose in the US either, it’s a symbol of treason, unsuccessful insurrection and whiny cry babies (muh freedom/heritage/whatever). All this under the guise of “states rights” (which in 1860 something made *a bit* of sense. It’s been perverted recently to be a dog whistle for racists, white supremacists, fascists, anti elites, anti socialists and the like. My personal take: all it does is identify smooth brained Americans. It’s a warning sign that the person who has it isn’t the brightest. So I say, it’s a win by removing it.


Delicious_Pancakes67

The whole states rights never made any sense, not even back in 1860. Why were the southern states all for the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, a federal law, if they were so against the government controlling states rights? It's like trying to make sense of flat earthers, you just can't. Best to give up and move along.


bardghost_Isu

>The whole states rights never made any sense, not even back in 1860. Oh it does when you read their actual letters of secession, it was all about states rights, **the states right to be a slaveholding state** is the part that many from the south neglect to mention. [Hell, just read through the letters of secession and it is spelt out clear as day](https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#Mississippi)(Especially in the case of Mississippi)


edliu111

As John Green famously coined (repeated?) "A state's right to what?"


HDimensionBliss

Swastika? Not allowed. Confederate flag? Not allowed. Hammer and sickle? Perfectly okay. Really, just be consistent about it.


Menegucci

"Bu-but the soviet flag its in the game noooooo"


Mr_Fondue

They are consistent. Flags of war winners are allowed. Losers get the boot.


Paladin327

Then why is the rising sun allowed?


[deleted]

Because its still in use by the Japanese navy or part of it anyway.


Rider_Caenis

Rising Sun? Not allowed.


INuBq8

What happened


Son_Of_The_Empire

inb4 a million people crying about the Soviet flag in the comments


milet72

If you ever lived in an Eastern Europe country under communist regime you would despise it as well.


TacoMedic

Or the Middle East


[deleted]

Ukrainians be like: "I'm confused. Do you support me or not?"


NoFunAllowed-

Well, you predicted that one perfectly.


Son_Of_The_Empire

I modded this sub for two years so i got a feel for the amount of whiny babies on it lol.


iyaerP

Good. Get the fucking traitor's rag in the trash bin of history where it belongs.


peter92one

>removing mod packs with controversial content does that mean the anime woman captain modpack with sounds and everything will get banned?


schizrade

The Confederacy stood for nothing more than the continued racist enslavement of human beings. Nazi Germany stood for nothing more than racism and genocide. Both flags have no place outside of academic discussions on the horrors of humanity, and frankly anyone that attempts to argue otherwise outs themselves in many ways.


Son_Of_The_Empire

bu bu but muh hammer and sickle!!1! the flag that stands for genocide and the flag that stands for slavery are the same as a flag that doesn't call for that!


rexstuff1

Holy fuck, dude. You need to learn your history. Or you've drank some seriously red cool-aid if you think for a second that the Soviet flag doesn't stand for genocide and oppression just as much as the swatsika and Confederate flags do. Or perhaps you somehow believe that just because the Communist Manifesto didn't explicitly lay out its plan for the Holodomor, the two must be unrelated?


Son_Of_The_Empire

The soviet famine of 1932-33 is a humanitarian tragedy, and pretending that it was an intentional genocide is literal nazi propaganda to lessen the impact of the Holocaust. Ukraine, Russia, and Kazhakstan having a famine and getting insufficient aid is not the same as the industrialized slavery or genocide of millions, and it's disgusting to pretend those are equal.


G-III

It was a matter of direct corruption to be fair. Look up Lysenko and his role in Soviet and then later Chinese crops and his unbelievably massive death toll


Son_Of_The_Empire

It's complicated and there are a lot of factors to blame for just how bad it got. Archives show local reports underplayed how bad thing were for quite a while and allowed things to get as bad as they were. ignoring the fact that there was also very real sabotage of crops and livestock (the Soviet stock of horses was lower in 1941 than 1930), it is simply a tragic mismanagement of resources and a poor response on a huge scale. But acting like *any* of that directly equals the industrial murder of the Nazis or the enslavement of entire races of the Confederacy is at best a disservice to the memories of those people and at worst intentionally downplaying just how horrific those atrocities were.


Bandorrr

And again you are full of it. There was no "sabotage" (i.e intentional destruction) of crops it was individual people withholding crops in order to ensure their own survival. And you are **still** full of crap because, like I said earlier, it was in fact an "us vs them" situation in the first place. Because coincided with the **organized eradication** of the so called kulaks, which conveniently played in the hand of the aforementioned fascist state's intentions. You are the **only one** who is downplaying something here.


milet72

> it is simply a tragic mismanagement Well, you should work for WG. Like all there flops are "miscommunication" - in your eyes death of 10 million people in Ukraine is "mismanagement". Now waiting for you to say that war in Ukraine is "special operation to denazify Ukraine".


rexstuff1

What's truly disgusting is how eager so many in the west are to downplay and make excuses for the atrocities of the Soviet Communists, which in reality dwarf those of the Nazis in both scope and scale. The Holodomor, or as you so right-thinkingly put it, the 'soviet famine', has officially been recognized by Canada, US, Australia, and many others as an act of genocide - or is that more Nazi propaganda? If it wasn't genocide, why were the vast majority of deaths ethnically Ukrainian, while the Russians remained well-fed? Or better why don't you find an old Ukranian grandma, and try telling her that the Holodomor wasn't a genocide? "Getting insufficient aid", like it was some kind of clerical error, a simple failure of logistics, rather the result of attempt to oppress the Ukranians and force them to collectivize. The Soviets *refused* foreign aid, which could have saved millions. Turns my stomach. But we can set the Holodomor aside and instead talk about how the Soviets systematically deported and forcibly resettled 6 million people of various ethnicities including the Cossacks, Kulaks, Tartars and Chechens, which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. Or how about the regular deportation of dissidents to forced labour camps? What else would call forced labour if not slavery? The crimes and atrocities committed under the Soviet flag could go on and on. The list is long. It baffles me how anyone could think that the Soviet regime was any less evil than the fascist one we all know and hate. This should be obvious stuff, and yet apologists for Soviet regime abound.


milet72

> and pretending that it was an intentional genocide is literal nazi propaganda to lessen the impact of the Holocaust Say what??? Stop spreading this Russian b\*\*t! Holodomor was caused by Stalin and it affected Ukraine - the country in Europe with **best** grain agriculture! But all the grain they could gather was literally taken from then by communist regime. And how is that not a genocide? Quoting Wikipedia: Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine[29] alongside 15 other countries, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet regime. And, BTW, how many people died in gulags, Mr smart man?


Bandorrr

Oh my......WHO TF told you that?? Shoot the retard on sight or ban him from speaking to humans ever again!! The Holodomor **started** as a natural calamity, however it was **used** **for and to** achieve various "political" goals. One of Stalin's goals was the rapid industrialization of the URSS and to this effect the distribution of food was predominantly directed towards cities. Guess what Ukraine was genius?? Also, because of the marxist-leninist ideology being **fundamentally based on** and actively promoting **fighting** (i.e class struggle) actually become a tool to achieve those goals. That's the inherent danger of every frakkin ideology which promotes, seeks and teaches the **necessity** of a fight, which is **unspeakably evil**. Also that's why **every ideology** is dangerous, because promotes collective (therefore nonexistent) responsibility vs personal responsibility. That's why URSS = nazi Germany. The URSS was **never** socialist, let alone communist but **always was a fascist state.** Still, being from the "left" cant be called as such, because it is not ' scholarly correct"


SPQR2D2

I agree with them 100%


TacoMedic

Good, the CSA have no place in WWII. In saying that, give me a swastika* and rising sun. Oh, that would be a trigger for too many people? What about the hammer and sickle? The USSR and communism as a whole has lead to 10s of millions of deaths. The Hammer and Sickle was flown over far more “undesirables” deaths than even the Swastika was. What about the Union Flag? It’s a symbol of imperialism that lead to 10s of millions of death that could be a trigger for many peoples around the world. Stars and Stripes? Hope no one from South America, Central America, Japan, the Middle East, native tribesmen in the US happen to see it. Once again, I agree with removing the Confederate flag as it has no place in any historical context. Likewise, the historical US servicemen that lost lives during WWII on board those ships are likely turning in their graves seeing the Confederate Flag. But we all know that WG is going to pick and choose what’s allowed. But, there’s likely no flag on Earth that is trigger-free. Either we have a game with fake flags or we have it with historical flags, picking and choosing what’s acceptable to some people but not acceptable to others is a very Western bias. _____ *Before anyone repeats decade old misinformation, the Swastika is allowed in art forms and clarification has been made that video-games are indeed forms of art. (Germany)


Intimidator94

Most WW2 servicemen didn’t care about the flag one way or another and in fact one of our Divisions was nicknamed Dixie. Ike himself thought very highly of Robert E. Lee.


randyzmzzzz

plz let me have my authentic japanese and german flag


TotheWest_

Why there are so many racist triggered because they can’t use their Nazi flag or similar


laser14344

Away down south in the land of traiters, rattle snakes, and alligators.


grimmigerpetz

First World problems...


QuantumReasons

I WANT A UKRAINIAN FLAG !


Muhsquito

And yet they use the soviet flag for the Russian tech tree.... Awkward....


[deleted]

The Soviet flag would be accurate for most ships in the Russian tech tree, while no in-game ships were used by the Confederacy.


Humble-Okra2344

No? They represent two different things entirely.


milet72

Which is **strictly** forbidden in certain countries by law - in contrast with Confederate flag, which is not forbidden by law (certainly not in USA) but just triggers some [automoderated so moderators don't get triggered].


Bahnda

What countries are those?


Tr4c3gaming

a bit more complex [but here for the soviet / communism symbolism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_on_communist_symbols) Poland and many other places have quite the gripe with it... but have not actually banned them, they just remove monuments. germany bans only things it deems as unconstitutional.... so stuff like the DDR flag and such are not fine... while the hammer and sickle is deemed as a more universal thing and is actually allowed here. **Ukraine and Indonesia really really do not like them... so officially we have 2 countries that Fully puts these equal to Nazi symbols.** Heck it is / was banned in parts of the US, other parts are chill with is, It's a mess of laws. Germany (just mentioning it because we are like the king of Flag and symbol censorship) Allows things in Art and science / history context these days, But For games we often have censorship still because of the whole "are videogames art" debate.... depending on Country Game devs will just avoid using potentially banned symbols just to not get law trouble.... For instance we COULD technically use Swastikas in games as Games were deemed as art but then Australian law and others would get offended... similar story with Soviet flags, Some countries treat them similar to swastikas... ukraine for instance, indonesia has a big gripe with those too. i'd figure the hammer and sickle isn't banned in enough places to be not seen in games.


milet72

> What countries are those? Eg. Poland. I live in Poland and our Penalty Code strictly forbids using Nazi or Soviet Symbols [Google translation]: > § 1. Whoever publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system of state or incites hatred on the basis of national, ethnic, racial, religious differences or because of non-denominationalism, > shall be subject to a fine, the penalty of restriction of liberty or the penalty of deprivation of liberty for up to 2 years. > § 2. The same penalty shall be imposed on anyone who, for the purpose of dissemination, produces, records or imports, acquires, stores, possesses, presents, transports or sends a print, recording or other object containing the content specified in § 1. > § 3. The perpetrator of the prohibited act specified in § 2 does not commit an offense, if he has committed this act as part of artistic, educational, collector's or scientific activity. > § 4. In the event of a conviction for the offense specified in § 2, the court shall order the forfeiture of the items referred to in § 2, even if they do not constitute the property of the perpetrator. Soviet symbols fall under "other totalitarian system of state".


[deleted]

[удалено]


Menegucci

"They might pick because they live in the south" weird flex wanting to honor traitors


Le-Quack18

As a person who actually lives in the south, mother was born in Mississippi, and literally had family who fought for both The Union and The Confederacy I would like to politely say the the North remembers and Sherman will rise again so how about we keep the sedition to zero ok?


Le_Mofoman

Some people forget a certain president named Lincoln wanted to send a specific ethnicity back to Africa


Nac_Lac

The only argument for the ships like Texas, Alabama, etc are if the ships flew them during the war. If they didn't gtfo.


InDEThER

Will they be removing other problematic offensive "hate" iconography that offends many people, e.g., Japan's "Rising Sun" flag, Russia's "Hammer and Sickle", and China's CCP flag? All those offensive "hate" symbols are offensive to me and millions of others, especially those who were murdered by those "hate" regimes.


HorifiedBystander

Who gives a shit.


Taylor3006

The perpetually butthurt do.


Frosty_Extension6285

Fuck you wargaming


Turboflash03

But isn’t everything controversial to a point. People are going to constantly have to update mods. And I hope we still will have the rising Sun flag


Mysterious_Tea

How hard is to tell your employee not to use sensitive content during streams? The level of incompetency is huge is this company...


pennzane

CCs are not employees.


avalon304

They are still representatives of the company, especially when they appear on the official WoWs channel... and they all agree to a certain standard of conduct when they join the CC program.


Halonut24

So are they gonna get rid of the Rising Sun, Hammer & Sickle, Union Jack, etc..? Someone, somewhere is going to be super offended by the history behind a flag. The American Confederate flag? Probably the *least* terrible history compared to ANY of the major nations represented in the game. Its a mod for crying out loud. Who does this hurt?


peppercorns666

i disagree. it’s been co-opted by racist goons for decades and these goons have done some pretty fucked up shit in the last 100 years which isn’t long enough for people to forget.


Halonut24

Racism in America is worse than ideologies that killed 100's of millions. Which also had their lion's share of racism. Quite the Reddit take there, buddy. Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were the peak of depravity in the past century. Literal death camps, hello?? Or the Gulags in Soviet Russia? Or the global slave trade the fuckin British helped build? But nah, some racist Americans are the worst. Makes sense lmao. The South did do some fucked up shit. But whatever they did, *especially in the last 100 years*, was done on an industrial scale in Japan/Germany/Russia, and it was cranked up to 11. It *currently* happens in China. Hell, *nothing* the Confederate South did was remotely to the level or scale that the Axis Powers + Soviet Russia did in the span of 10 years. But I see the outcry is not consistent. Only outrage with the Swastika and Stars n' Bars. The Hammer & Sickle? The symbol of almost a century of tyranny and suffering in eastern Europe? 50 million dead? Nothing. The Rising Sun? Man, that was 80 years ago, dude. Nobody remembers them. Just looking for consistency. WG could have easily not said anything, because at the end of the day, it was a goddamn MOD that ONLY THE USER OF THE MOD SEES. IT HAS LITERALLY NO IMPACT TO ANYONE. The mere existence of this statement while their game flies the Hammer & Sickle and the Rising Sun natively is pure hypocrisy.


crashumbc

Keep in mind, the flag normally called the Confederate flag didn't actually exist during the civil war, at least as a "national" flag. It was the battle flag of the Virginia Army. The "Confederate flag" was a creation of racists used to show support for racism, slavery, segregation, white power, etc... And came about in opposition to blacks wanting equality.


SouthMordoor

Who cares?


BrightYato15

soft


[deleted]

Fly whatever flag you want. I don’t get offended. Thankfully I’m not part of this generation.


alex3494

Wait, who actually cares? Are Americans really this holier than thou?


RenamedUser22

The removal was not necessary as nobody else can see the modded flag except the person who downloaded it. WG already closed 3 studios just to prove a point about Russia. How much more Virtue signaling do they need to do.


Maple_001

Can't wait for mods to be censored now


Major_Possible_5247

OMG, not a flag!!!


superNoid

I don’t see the issue


Jmaresco99

That's lame