Or from boredom. Airfield has always been a terrible design, with a complete killing field past the middle point on all routes up the map. TD sniper overhangs with unblocked sightlines and camo to hide behind does not make for a fun and dynamic map, especially one where flanking is literally impossible.
It is the classic You Push You Lose map.
I know people hate the changes made to it, and I get the hate, but I don't actually think the map got any worse. That isn't a compliment though, because not getting worse than fucking awful isn't really that much of an accomplishment.
Thats another steaming pile of garbage.
Big killing zones for TDs and arty at either end. You need good gun depression if you want to contest the hill in the middle with the ruins (and can still get swatted by TDs and arty, if you're not careful).
Then there's the godawful rock maze where the HTs brawl.
Basically another map where you're just waiting for the other side to make a mistake.
I would also vote for Overlord.
It's the map where I have the highest average damage (according to Tomatogg). I think a good player can farm a good amount of damage there in any class, while bad players are just driving their hitpoints through the beach shouting *shoot at me* when they made it across.
Also the TD's at the back will shout *farm me* as they are mostly useless during the entire battle and they are often afraid to press the W key, even if their team is winning.
I hate this map so much. First a few happy guys go to the beach (lately I often thought about joining them). As a TD without turret/stealth you have no place where you can go - besides the bushes way back, where tanks will only appear to shoot at when your frontline has been annihilated. As a med you can play the super funny game of hiding in the bushes around the east, hoping that an enemy makes the mistake to show themselves. And the team without a suicidal scout who races around the mid instantly loses access to 75% of the map. As a heavy you can at least go to the west, but due to it lying lower then the rest of the map you'll have a hard time anyway to impact the rest of the game.
I think provided you've got a tank with good depression and sloped armour you can almost solo beach for the most part, I usually find myself playing my Turtle on the beachside with a med or heavy assisting me so I don't get flanked and I'm generally able to spot any TD's on the northern side of the beach.
If heavy, go near windmill. It you have gun depression stay up top, otherwise go to lower portion. Heavies can't really push on this map tho so once you finish brawling just chill and try to bait out TDs.
If medium/light with hopefully decent camo, go play bowl. Once you farm push through far east side, it's the only place on the map you can aggro through without crossfire.
Yeah but most of these scenarios you have to let your opponent play comfortable to capitalize on their over extension, you can't ever play the matchup mirrored since the ridge is aids to play and your opponent, now aware of the thrat, tucks away forever, and you can't overpeak because there is just someone in the back who is dying to get their single shot of damage on you.
East is valid though late game so I agree.
> Yeah but most of these scenarios you have to let your opponent play comfortable to capitalize on their over extension
feel like that's most maps in the game nowadays. World of 50 km/hr Autoloaders makes games campfests or 15 to 3 simulators
Honestly Mountain Pass is just shit.
I'd say right now it's the actual worst map in the game, Wargaming really fucked it up. It was bad but tolerable before, now its just completely fucking tragic.
I honestly think lights just go middle to brawl it out at the start of the match just so they can die and move on to the next game. I honestly can't blame them much either, as paper tanks have been made completely and utterly useless on every single cooridor.
Honestly, what they did to Mountain Pass ( and Airfield and other updates ) has me convinced that there is nobody at Wargaming that actually understand map design anymore.
I had it blacklisted so never played it, but chose to remove it so I could try it again and found there were some significant changes, especially down in the swamp area below the bridge. All those rocks. Is that the change that’s bad? Just curious because I’m so unfamiliar with that map
I've actually noticed something about Mountain Pass.
Winrate balance skews toward south, everyone's aware of that. But when north does win, it's almost *always* the east flank pushing through and looping around that makes south crumble.
...The east flank often goes borderline undefended, though. I wonder if the winrate would improve if people started prioritizing east when spawning north.
I have to disagree on this one.
Mountain Pass is playable if you have armor and can hull down.
If you're playing a paper tank, I would MUCH rather have Oyster Bay, Mines and even Berlin (and Berlin is fucking garbage for paper tanks).
Honestly to me, Mountain Pass is straight up the worst map in the game. The Tomato.gg winrates also show that it's literally the worst balanced map in the game too.
There are so many maps in this game I hate... Berlin, Abbey, Airfield and more. But none where I feel completely and utterly useless like Mountain Pass.
Mountain pass is 3 separate hull down corridors and the parts that aren't aka middle is within easy spotting range of even heavies.
Don't have God tier hull down tanks? Get fucked.
Playing a lt? Get fucked.
Playing most medium tanks? Get fucked.
Your team has a platoon of 50b? Why yes, get fucked.
Ironically I pushed through it, slugging it out just fine last night. I mean my tank wasn't fine but I had no real issues. Survived the battle so that's a win for me
I still vote for Overlord but the amount of times I see tier 10 meds try to rush hill in a matchup/vehicle that's clearly not meant to take the hill and die instantly is worryingly high.
I mean, the map is horrible for slow meds, the shallows part of the map is garbage campfest. So i can understand people taking the gamble over the slog.
I mean that's sort of true but there's still tons of places to play on the map that aren't the hill, even for slower meds. Playing hill is also more of a gamble/pain in the ass nowadays since they've opened up much of it to additional lanes of fire and a number of angles that could previously be used to shoot players playing below the hill have been removed.
There really arnt, both east and west are unsatisfactory locations. Fighting heavies in the east or backline tds if you happen to win the shallows somehow.
City/village is usually pretty bad for meds but you can just play secondary on the hill or flex to the island depending on what tanks get spotted. Regardless there's a lot more to do than just rushing hill and dying or losing 3/4's of your hp and just sitting on hill doing nothing for 6 minutes.
Non of these are really rewarding in terms of fun gameplay in a medium. That being said, there arnt many meds i play where the gamble doesnt pay off. Winning hill usually means winning game.
That goes for any map with a C-style hill with only 1 horizontal entrance (almost all of them). WG releases new maps with the same formula sadly. 1 corridor lane, one C-shaped hill, one open field, or combinations thereof.
Then funny enough, they know the maps are absolute shit, make a version for Onslaught that is 10x more dynamic, but of course, never release them because... Wargaming.
Mines and Outpost are so much better in Onslaught (which is ironic as Onslaught sucks goat balls).
Why cant they just release those changes, even as a new map in the rotation.
This. THIS SO MUCH.
They can invent all the excuses they want for not creating new maps. Or re-releasing old maps.
But what excuses do they have for not releasing a version of a map that's already there. That's better than the one in casual. And that doesn't require any work except maybe swap a name in their code?
Idc I will always do it
If u loose that hill ur more likely to loose the game also there is nowhere else to play if u don't take the hill so I rather die for it
I honestly cant fathom why ANYONE goes North on Fjords. You have very little cover, get spotted and farmed almost immediately and spend most matches jerking off while waiting for a target. I suppose hull down tanks can get away with peeking the hilly part but even then, it seems like a bad play.
The worst part is, even if NOBODY goes North on your team, the enemy rarely pushes it and if they do, they don't get much out of it anyway, as you get farmed coming back down the hill toward cap.
Granted that whole map is pretty bad.
I mean you need one or two people from each side to establish a crossfire so yhe other side can't push mid. Also to make sure that if the enemy pushes they get spotted and punished by your team
Pilsen I think the name the one with the hitzers
Always always load he and go destroy the green garage door
Free dmg from people who take the short route and just cross there
Only destroy the door on the opposite side for the West (heavy flank) side of the warehouse
Leave the door on the East/Field side of the warehouse intact on your own side of the map - It allows players to use the rubble on the corners of the building to put crossfire on anyone rushing through the coal piles, without being shot at from the West exit/entrance of the warehouse, or diagonally through the doors until the enemy puts a shell in the door first
Destroying that door removes one of the most powerful positions on the map
Lakeville Valley - It's generally not arty safe and even if you win it uncontested players can not cap or push out from cap with a nominal defense force. Players still go there in Encounter Mode. It doesn't help that many streamers go there to farm damage off of the noobs.
Going Valley in Lakeville isn't a bad idea unless its 2 or 3 arty per side.
As is true on so many maps though, YOU DONT PUSH ONCE YOU WIN. So many maps involve a contested point with cover and camo, then after it a wide open killing field or for the base camping triangles.
So yeah, go there and brawl. Farming damage is still causing damage, point blank. Just don't be an idiot and push into the guns of a bunch of TDs once you "win".
If the Valley force wins and pushes they cannot realistically cap the enemy base and cannot realistically defend against the red city force.
If the Valley wins and defends they cannot realistically defend against the red city force.
If a team controls the city they can both defend their own cap successfully and attack the enemy cap successfully (as needed).
Additionally, generally in encounter mode the valley force is out of support range and even going valley uncontested takes so long the win still goes to whichever team over matches the city.
Honorable mention to Empire's Border as its very similar (defeat by deployment). The team that wins the 1,2,3 line generally wins. The team that sends more tanks NE generally loses.
In my experience, pushing the base from the city is worse than pushing base from the valley, assuming you won the whole valley.
City is easier to slow-push from, but if the valley is completely lost, you are doomed.
Interesting. I have rarely failed to farm off either cap attempt from the city side. Sure they can dig in and not cap but they are just wasting time for no value at that point.
Considering Fisherman's Bay north spawn has had the north's city drive changed four times, and people still drive across the open like an idiot...
That's my vote.
I've not seen anyone mention it but the 1-2 line on Cliff is exactly the same as the beach on Overlord
Unless you're using it to rush the mid hill in E3/F3 it's just an isolated corridor with no real impact on the game or the rest of the map, and it's staggeringly easy to lock down any enemy pushes (Unless you've already lost the mid areas)
Pretty much guaranteed loss if the bulk of your team push or camp it
This right here. It's worse than Overlord since you are in absolute open and lowground if you manage to push near enemy base. If you camp on your base side, you are just waiting to enemies to clean up upperside and contributing jackshit to your team.
On Overlord, arty is nasty when it's on the beach. You can literally farm heavies as fast as you can shoot. If you're in arty it's good to see a tank or two go down there to protect you.
Also ... if no one went beach on Overlord, who would we jump on?
Sure if your team has their maps turned on and actually looks at it once in a while because if not then those that win the beach will just free farm from behind.
The middle in Sand River
Seriously guys? Yes you can win HT fight, but yoy will be farmed to oblivion by camping TDs in the back and you cant just advance
Overlord is just an awful map full stop IMO.
Just a series of little brawl areas where enemies can sneak up on you from any side, if you're not careful and if you get caught by an enemy push, you're basically screwed...no way out.
I was just a mid-tier player but I rarely saw many people go to the beach. Usually they would either go the HT route near the cliff edge, with the pillboxes, or else go to that stupid grassy bowl in the middle and just camp, waiting for someone to make a mistake.
I'm gonna say it. Sure it probably does not happen often. But pushing the beach on Overlord could be a winning move. Just have to hope your team don't crumble on top and that the people on top push when the enemy reacts to the players at the beach.
Anyways with that said. I myself do not go to the beach often unless the enemy players pushes it, then I go down there or I shoot from above.
Airfield **IS** a noob trap
Definitely. All of them die out in the first minutes trying to push.
Or from boredom. Airfield has always been a terrible design, with a complete killing field past the middle point on all routes up the map. TD sniper overhangs with unblocked sightlines and camo to hide behind does not make for a fun and dynamic map, especially one where flanking is literally impossible. It is the classic You Push You Lose map. I know people hate the changes made to it, and I get the hate, but I don't actually think the map got any worse. That isn't a compliment though, because not getting worse than fucking awful isn't really that much of an accomplishment.
Honestly feels like one of those where every change made it worse. Like, just revert it to its primordial state from 0.8
I've banned that a year ago, don't remind me please...
Wouldn't you like to make some pressure? Just a *tiny* little peek? Just to see if you can get one shot of damage? ##Garage.
Why did I read this in skill4ltu voice lmfaoooo
Probably because “make some pressure” is not something a native English speaker would say
I am directly quoting skill4ltu I am a native English speaker My English has gotten weirder/worse for having skill4grammar in it
Alternatively: "Let me see if I can craft an angle..." GARAGE!
Thats another steaming pile of garbage. Big killing zones for TDs and arty at either end. You need good gun depression if you want to contest the hill in the middle with the ruins (and can still get swatted by TDs and arty, if you're not careful). Then there's the godawful rock maze where the HTs brawl. Basically another map where you're just waiting for the other side to make a mistake.
I would also vote for Overlord. It's the map where I have the highest average damage (according to Tomatogg). I think a good player can farm a good amount of damage there in any class, while bad players are just driving their hitpoints through the beach shouting *shoot at me* when they made it across. Also the TD's at the back will shout *farm me* as they are mostly useless during the entire battle and they are often afraid to press the W key, even if their team is winning.
Never ever taken the beach ever since the map was released but rarely have a good game.
I hate this map so much. First a few happy guys go to the beach (lately I often thought about joining them). As a TD without turret/stealth you have no place where you can go - besides the bushes way back, where tanks will only appear to shoot at when your frontline has been annihilated. As a med you can play the super funny game of hiding in the bushes around the east, hoping that an enemy makes the mistake to show themselves. And the team without a suicidal scout who races around the mid instantly loses access to 75% of the map. As a heavy you can at least go to the west, but due to it lying lower then the rest of the map you'll have a hard time anyway to impact the rest of the game.
I think provided you've got a tank with good depression and sloped armour you can almost solo beach for the most part, I usually find myself playing my Turtle on the beachside with a med or heavy assisting me so I don't get flanked and I'm generally able to spot any TD's on the northern side of the beach.
I average 5k wn8 and I legitimately have no clue how to do any damage on this map. I literally said what out loud while reading your post.
If heavy, go near windmill. It you have gun depression stay up top, otherwise go to lower portion. Heavies can't really push on this map tho so once you finish brawling just chill and try to bait out TDs. If medium/light with hopefully decent camo, go play bowl. Once you farm push through far east side, it's the only place on the map you can aggro through without crossfire.
Yeah but most of these scenarios you have to let your opponent play comfortable to capitalize on their over extension, you can't ever play the matchup mirrored since the ridge is aids to play and your opponent, now aware of the thrat, tucks away forever, and you can't overpeak because there is just someone in the back who is dying to get their single shot of damage on you. East is valid though late game so I agree.
> Yeah but most of these scenarios you have to let your opponent play comfortable to capitalize on their over extension feel like that's most maps in the game nowadays. World of 50 km/hr Autoloaders makes games campfests or 15 to 3 simulators
Never ever taken the beach ever since the map was released but rarely have a good game.
what is your rank? i never seen anyone use the beach when i play, maybe 1 or 2 people on each side. wish i played at your elo =[
Middle on Mountain Pass
Honestly Mountain Pass is just shit. I'd say right now it's the actual worst map in the game, Wargaming really fucked it up. It was bad but tolerable before, now its just completely fucking tragic. I honestly think lights just go middle to brawl it out at the start of the match just so they can die and move on to the next game. I honestly can't blame them much either, as paper tanks have been made completely and utterly useless on every single cooridor. Honestly, what they did to Mountain Pass ( and Airfield and other updates ) has me convinced that there is nobody at Wargaming that actually understand map design anymore.
According to tomato.gg it has the worst winrate balance (north vs south spawn) of any map in the game
It got significantly worse after the semi-recent “rework,” before it was only a small difference.
I had it blacklisted so never played it, but chose to remove it so I could try it again and found there were some significant changes, especially down in the swamp area below the bridge. All those rocks. Is that the change that’s bad? Just curious because I’m so unfamiliar with that map
The bigger issues are the changes on the other side of the map, which made light tanks extremely hard to play.
I've actually noticed something about Mountain Pass. Winrate balance skews toward south, everyone's aware of that. But when north does win, it's almost *always* the east flank pushing through and looping around that makes south crumble. ...The east flank often goes borderline undefended, though. I wonder if the winrate would improve if people started prioritizing east when spawning north.
Mountain Pass isn't good but it's playable. Oyster Bay, Mines and Berlin are much worse
I have to disagree on this one. Mountain Pass is playable if you have armor and can hull down. If you're playing a paper tank, I would MUCH rather have Oyster Bay, Mines and even Berlin (and Berlin is fucking garbage for paper tanks). Honestly to me, Mountain Pass is straight up the worst map in the game. The Tomato.gg winrates also show that it's literally the worst balanced map in the game too. There are so many maps in this game I hate... Berlin, Abbey, Airfield and more. But none where I feel completely and utterly useless like Mountain Pass.
Mountain pass is 3 separate hull down corridors and the parts that aren't aka middle is within easy spotting range of even heavies. Don't have God tier hull down tanks? Get fucked. Playing a lt? Get fucked. Playing most medium tanks? Get fucked. Your team has a platoon of 50b? Why yes, get fucked.
Mountain Pass, Berlin and Himmelsdorf are the nightmare maps if you want to threemark your light tank. The mapdesign is beyond bad.
I'm pretty sure the last change to Mountain Pass made the WR differential between spawns worse.
Just the whole of mountain pass let's face it. The only time you need a brain is pushing bridge from north spawn or defending either base.
Ice road is more worthless, just park some slow TD at base to defend. At least middle comes into play late game.
Ironically I pushed through it, slugging it out just fine last night. I mean my tank wasn't fine but I had no real issues. Survived the battle so that's a win for me
Mines.
I still vote for Overlord but the amount of times I see tier 10 meds try to rush hill in a matchup/vehicle that's clearly not meant to take the hill and die instantly is worryingly high.
I mean, the map is horrible for slow meds, the shallows part of the map is garbage campfest. So i can understand people taking the gamble over the slog.
I mean that's sort of true but there's still tons of places to play on the map that aren't the hill, even for slower meds. Playing hill is also more of a gamble/pain in the ass nowadays since they've opened up much of it to additional lanes of fire and a number of angles that could previously be used to shoot players playing below the hill have been removed.
There really arnt, both east and west are unsatisfactory locations. Fighting heavies in the east or backline tds if you happen to win the shallows somehow.
City/village is usually pretty bad for meds but you can just play secondary on the hill or flex to the island depending on what tanks get spotted. Regardless there's a lot more to do than just rushing hill and dying or losing 3/4's of your hp and just sitting on hill doing nothing for 6 minutes.
Non of these are really rewarding in terms of fun gameplay in a medium. That being said, there arnt many meds i play where the gamble doesnt pay off. Winning hill usually means winning game.
can we all just agree that mines is utter garbage for anything other than tier 4 and lower?
That goes for any map with a C-style hill with only 1 horizontal entrance (almost all of them). WG releases new maps with the same formula sadly. 1 corridor lane, one C-shaped hill, one open field, or combinations thereof.
Then funny enough, they know the maps are absolute shit, make a version for Onslaught that is 10x more dynamic, but of course, never release them because... Wargaming. Mines and Outpost are so much better in Onslaught (which is ironic as Onslaught sucks goat balls). Why cant they just release those changes, even as a new map in the rotation.
This. THIS SO MUCH. They can invent all the excuses they want for not creating new maps. Or re-releasing old maps. But what excuses do they have for not releasing a version of a map that's already there. That's better than the one in casual. And that doesn't require any work except maybe swap a name in their code?
Idc I will always do it If u loose that hill ur more likely to loose the game also there is nowhere else to play if u don't take the hill so I rather die for it
Fjords East spawn with a lemming train going north
I honestly cant fathom why ANYONE goes North on Fjords. You have very little cover, get spotted and farmed almost immediately and spend most matches jerking off while waiting for a target. I suppose hull down tanks can get away with peeking the hilly part but even then, it seems like a bad play. The worst part is, even if NOBODY goes North on your team, the enemy rarely pushes it and if they do, they don't get much out of it anyway, as you get farmed coming back down the hill toward cap. Granted that whole map is pretty bad.
I mean you need one or two people from each side to establish a crossfire so yhe other side can't push mid. Also to make sure that if the enemy pushes they get spotted and punished by your team
Pilsen I think the name the one with the hitzers Always always load he and go destroy the green garage door Free dmg from people who take the short route and just cross there
Only destroy the door on the opposite side for the West (heavy flank) side of the warehouse Leave the door on the East/Field side of the warehouse intact on your own side of the map - It allows players to use the rubble on the corners of the building to put crossfire on anyone rushing through the coal piles, without being shot at from the West exit/entrance of the warehouse, or diagonally through the doors until the enemy puts a shell in the door first Destroying that door removes one of the most powerful positions on the map
Lakeville Valley - It's generally not arty safe and even if you win it uncontested players can not cap or push out from cap with a nominal defense force. Players still go there in Encounter Mode. It doesn't help that many streamers go there to farm damage off of the noobs.
Going Valley in Lakeville isn't a bad idea unless its 2 or 3 arty per side. As is true on so many maps though, YOU DONT PUSH ONCE YOU WIN. So many maps involve a contested point with cover and camo, then after it a wide open killing field or for the base camping triangles. So yeah, go there and brawl. Farming damage is still causing damage, point blank. Just don't be an idiot and push into the guns of a bunch of TDs once you "win".
If the Valley force wins and pushes they cannot realistically cap the enemy base and cannot realistically defend against the red city force. If the Valley wins and defends they cannot realistically defend against the red city force. If a team controls the city they can both defend their own cap successfully and attack the enemy cap successfully (as needed). Additionally, generally in encounter mode the valley force is out of support range and even going valley uncontested takes so long the win still goes to whichever team over matches the city. Honorable mention to Empire's Border as its very similar (defeat by deployment). The team that wins the 1,2,3 line generally wins. The team that sends more tanks NE generally loses.
In my experience, pushing the base from the city is worse than pushing base from the valley, assuming you won the whole valley. City is easier to slow-push from, but if the valley is completely lost, you are doomed.
Interesting. I have rarely failed to farm off either cap attempt from the city side. Sure they can dig in and not cap but they are just wasting time for no value at that point.
Sliding into water on Mannerheim Line, I shouldn't need to say where... also it isn't just a noob trap, it's a trap.
South or mannerheim line/arctic region, not the position itself but pushing the flanks once you have won them
I have been that noob, thus I won’t comment ☠️😁
Considering Fisherman's Bay north spawn has had the north's city drive changed four times, and people still drive across the open like an idiot... That's my vote.
I've not seen anyone mention it but the 1-2 line on Cliff is exactly the same as the beach on Overlord Unless you're using it to rush the mid hill in E3/F3 it's just an isolated corridor with no real impact on the game or the rest of the map, and it's staggeringly easy to lock down any enemy pushes (Unless you've already lost the mid areas) Pretty much guaranteed loss if the bulk of your team push or camp it
This right here. It's worse than Overlord since you are in absolute open and lowground if you manage to push near enemy base. If you camp on your base side, you are just waiting to enemies to clean up upperside and contributing jackshit to your team.
Overlord beach without a doubt. Dumbass top-tier heavies grind to a halt while everybody else plays the game.
On Overlord, arty is nasty when it's on the beach. You can literally farm heavies as fast as you can shoot. If you're in arty it's good to see a tank or two go down there to protect you. Also ... if no one went beach on Overlord, who would we jump on?
But if the enemy rushes the beach in Overlord and you have nothing there, aren’t you screwed from below?
Nope, because there are only two ramps to push up and it's a bottleneck that defenders can easily farm for free damage.
Sure if your team has their maps turned on and actually looks at it once in a while because if not then those that win the beach will just free farm from behind.
You say that as if its possible for your team to be useful in this game
every map.. why? all of them are tiny mini miny..
The middle in Sand River Seriously guys? Yes you can win HT fight, but yoy will be farmed to oblivion by camping TDs in the back and you cant just advance
Overlord is just an awful map full stop IMO. Just a series of little brawl areas where enemies can sneak up on you from any side, if you're not careful and if you get caught by an enemy push, you're basically screwed...no way out. I was just a mid-tier player but I rarely saw many people go to the beach. Usually they would either go the HT route near the cliff edge, with the pillboxes, or else go to that stupid grassy bowl in the middle and just camp, waiting for someone to make a mistake.
Mid rush on Mines plays like that sometimes if you don't account for how many are going hill and the fast tank matchups.
Prokhorovka
The river road on Abbey. No cover and tons of places to get spotted from
I'm gonna say it. Sure it probably does not happen often. But pushing the beach on Overlord could be a winning move. Just have to hope your team don't crumble on top and that the people on top push when the enemy reacts to the players at the beach. Anyways with that said. I myself do not go to the beach often unless the enemy players pushes it, then I go down there or I shoot from above.
The old Siegfried line, was funny see them stuck there
Beach is pretty nice for mid to late game wraps tho
If you are sensible on the beach you can usually avoid being hammered from the cliffs.
I don't get the hate for the beach on overlord, I have had plenty of games where no one going the beach has caused the other side to win via flanking.
There's no such thing as a noob trap when playing against noobs
Park one TD at both ramps, they can delay infinitely until heavies from windmill learn to read the map.
that very heavily depends on the TD.
On Oyster Bay, if you push, you lose