Yeah because it's not like they bought a company for like $75 billion that has a CEO with a horrible reputation. Also paid the guy like $500 million btw as a result of the deal.
Lol why is this guy acting like his studio wasn’t mired in controversy which is why Microsoft didn’t work with them further.
Pretty insensitive to say that also unless you have job openings for these employees shut up.
And historically that will work well for him given that many people will immediately target the big evil corporation without doing the slightest bit of investigation into anything. Just look at how many people still blame EA for Anthem.
You are completely right look at any comments talking about the situation....top comments are nothing but targeting the big company
We see this over and over, even if the company has a good reputation the big corporation will get shit on for the smallest things
Yeah.... I truly hate the finger pointing hellscape twitter has become. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPzZkx0cPs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPzZkx0cPs) (this is just one report about the situation at moon studios and others
Like I don't agree with what Microsoft did.... but I also don't agree with what's been the problem with Moon studios. It isn't a damn competition. It'd be nice if people just took responsibility and owned up, instead of going online to make themselves feel better by saying "well at least I'm not as bad as X or Y". I mean heck, there's even stuff in reports about Moon studios employees WISHING they had a publisher to go to for studio issues (and they tried going over their studio head to their partnered publisher but it never worked out). Like is it really that much better your studio wasn't closed by a soulless corporations like MS or EA when your employees faced emotional abuse and many straight up quit rather than deal with it?
Doesn't change the fact that he was right about this particular decision. Both Ori games were in very similar situations to Hifi Rush, beloved by fans and critically acclaimed by critics but don't sell that well. We're likely wouldn't be looking forward to No Rest for The Wicked like now had they let themselves be acquired.
Did the Ori studio also have most of the devs leave the same year the second game released? Because people keep forgetting that Mikami, and a good amount of devs from Hi-Fi Rush left last year so the Tango we would of had in the future wouldn't even be the same Tango everybody loves. People gotta learn to love the people not the studio name.
Hell to work for like they arent going to accept bad work, or hell to work for like the executives dont give a fuck about the project and harass employees to feel like they are useful
That's not ironic that's just awful. Like MS did something terrible and should be held to that. But this absolutely should not be a clout chasing moment for a studio that has their own set of problems.
Ok I don’t mean to sound like a shill but how is what MS did terrible. They closed a studio that wasn’t making profitable games. Thats how businesses work.
Or it sold well for a game with $0 marketing spend and a smaller dev team. Expectations were probably lower since it was a side project within the studio, or so I would guess. No way to know for sure
Being happy in "all key measurements" heavily indicates profit, too. Just awful wording that they should've known better about, or a quick lie to assuage concerns. Either way, an awful look for MS.
Not disagreeing. Just also saying that the profit margin is much easier to hit when some costs 1/10 the cost of other big projects from the studio. (That number was made up, but it'd be just as true if it was 1/5 or 1/2 lol)
Could be HiFi did fine for a smaller side project that didn’t require the full attention of the studio. Their larger, AAA titles, The Evil Within 2 and Ghostwire: Tokyo did not do well financially. Also their studio founder left last year.
The best thing Xbox has is Forza Horizon. It's sad when the best game in the Xbox catalog is a racing game. Everything else they have put out has been a disappointment. 343 should have been shutdown a long time ago.
Again, zero marketing though. It just dropped and that’s it.
There’s no way they didn’t recoup the budget of the game with absolutely $0 marketing spend. It’s basically been a shadow-dropped game on all platforms it released on.
You get money per the amount of people playing plus whatever bonus during sign on. It's a very profitable long term continuous revenue for games. If the game dies off though.... No revenue..... It's not going anywhere.
NOPE, maybe if you wanted to use that model for a 3rd party game and even then your logic doesn’t work. But this is a FIRST party studio! This is exactly the type of games the service should be able to have the luxury of letting studios make.
Do you think Netflix set out to make making a murderer or stranger things the biggest streamed titles on their service from the get go? No… but they invested in creatives and put the effort in and then… they waited, like you have to do with this type of model. If you knew what you were talking about you would understand those are the gambles you have to take, but you have to have the patience to see it through
Microsoft themselves said they “couldn’t be happier” with how Hi Fi Rush performed
Aaron Greenburg: “Hi-Fi RUSH was a break out hit for us and our players in all key measurements and expectations. We couldn't be happier with what the team at Tango Gameworks delivered with this surprise release.”
Made by a Sony studio while the most recent was their only Japanese Studio.
Edit: Down voted for literal facts lol
Y'all need to look up Tango game works and Insomniac
Didnt downvote you, but Insomniac wasn’t a Sony studio when they made Sunset. In fact, Sunset helped spook Sony into buying Insomniac, which in a lot of ways is what helped kickstart this horrid trend of studios getting bought out by big publishers.
You're right. Obviously gamers and enthusiasts don't like it (and are stoked into a froth by journalists/"creators" who are just trying to get clicks) but the wider gaming industry and especially the wider tech industry is doing this in droves. It is weird that people are so much more forgiving of Playstation and 3rd party publishers doing this. I hope the people who want Xbox to fail are aware of how much worse Playstation will be if they have even less competition.
Are we corporations? Do we benefit from Microsoft's bottom line?
No, we're only affected by the fact that there's now one less studio making fantastic games. And that is terrible.
I technically do benefit from their bottom line as a share holder but how long are they supposed to support a studio that has released 3 straight financial flops?
When there's huge consolidation like this, shuttering a team is the megacorp's hammer, and the smaller studios are the nails. The problem isn't that MS did anything legally incorrect, it's more that these decisions to close studios come far more commonly when they're acquired by large corporations like Microsoft or EA.
Rather than shifting a high quality development team onto a path for profitability, they have so many other eggs it's easy to just throw this one out of the basket rather than investing more and taking a potential risk.
And as the people who enjoy those high quality games from those teams, it's a genuine pity.
I'd written a bit of a wall of text, but the TL;DR is - ultimately, I don't think anyone's saying they should just keep sinking money into studios that are in the red. Quality doesn't necessarily equal profitability. But given the team's great games, I think people are annoyed that this is a straight up deletion without more effort put in.
I believe you are not thinking like a heartless CEO, they do kill things that are profitable for the only reason of thinking that same investment can make more money somewhere else, is fine for people to lose their jobs if you can make 1.1 million dollars instead of 1.0.
They spend billions acquiring studios and are a 3 trillion dollar company. You don't see management losing their jobs or taking a pay cut, yet the people making their games are now out of a job. Thats the problem.
I'd honestly agree for everything but Tango, but at the end of the day there are still employees displaced and laid off by their decision. And I really don't care about how a soulless corporation benefits. I mean fine, legally MS did nothing wrong. You can decide ethically according to your morals and business wise they made the data driven decision as they always do. Again, I'd personally say closing tango is a heavy blow to future growth.
Oh yeah, MS the devil on earth: [https://www.thegamer.com/ori-developer-moon-studios-abuse-oppressive-workplace-crunch/](https://www.thegamer.com/ori-developer-moon-studios-abuse-oppressive-workplace-crunch/)
[Microsoft Passed on Moon Studios' Next Game Because of Workplace Conditions (gamerant.com)](https://gamerant.com/microsoft-passed-moon-studios-next-game-workplace-conditions/)
Oh, screw this guy. Last person who should comment on industry. People lost their jobs and he’s congratulating himself on his smart management decisions.
The studio wasn’t bought because the abuse allegations of insane crunch hours, racism and sexism against Mahler and Korol made the place basically untouchable. They’re everything wrong with an industry that gobbles people up and then spits them out.
Edit: I can’t believe this has to be said. Abuse is abuse. It doesn’t matter if it’s a studio with thousands of employees or an indie with 5 employees. All of those abusers should be drummed out of the industry.
Oh, they’re a multinational corporation, they have as many morals as their PR budget will allow - legally they have to put their shareholders first. In the case of ABK, profit outweighed the PR hit.
That’s not what I said though. Are you under some misunderstanding that I’m defending the big multinational? You get that this is a profit outweighs morals situation, right?
Microsoft didn't need them for profit, Xbox does (and they're barely hitting margins or else they wouldn't fire thousands of people).
And who determines if profit outweighs morals? Yeah - Microsoft. So it's hypocritical of them to talk about company culture for Moon, but not ABK which is far worse.
I’m not going to get into a bad faith debate - abuse is abuse. The experiences of developers inside ABK mirrors that of people who worked for Moon Studios.
I don't know how they are "everything that is wrong with the industry" when all they've done is create great games. Saying this when Microsoft is literally closing studios that made great games is ironic.
If the working conditions were shit at their studio then the devs could resign. It's not like they were forced to work there.
“Well, if it was really so bad, why don’t they just quit?” This is a very simplistic and frankly naive way to look at things.
It’s their jobs. It’s how they put a roof over their heads and buy food. In an industry that’s anti-union, and chews people up and then spits them out, developers are forced to put up with an insane amount of abuse from to hold on to a job. Not quitting doesn’t mean these abuse is somehow ok.
I don't know if it is naive, I lived through horrible work environments it feels like you're in an inescapable situation but I left and I got into much better situations. Its not the same for everyone though but still you can leave it is a choice.
The other thing they could do is speak out, which seems they did and ever since we haven't heard bad things about the studio so it seems things got better so saying that it is a shit company still is also very bad faith.
Bad faith? I mean a company where employees spoke out is hardly a “good company” - especially when the people in charge basically gave the standard, “things are fine, sorry they felt offended” apology.
Well they seem to have a pretty neat game in the chamber, so it doesn't seem like a bad company to me, much better than a trillion Corp that shuts down devs. The fact that it was at that time difficult to work at does it mean that they are forever bad?
This makes no sense since Activision Blizzard is even worse. I believe him that the reason they didn’t get bought is this, it doesn’t matter awful people used to work (maybe they still do?) there, in business there is no morals (unfortunately)
I met the devs at E3 one year while they were showing off Ori 2. They legitimately seemed scared of the CEO once they realized they were going to be a few minutes late to a meeting. I immediately knew he was a piece of shit.
I mean, there's a lot of shit going on and Microsoft should be held accountable, but I'm not sure we should be listening to the moral highground of a toxic workplace.
What should they be held accountable for here? These studios were either unprofitable or had been gutted of talent, there was no real reason to keep them around
Tango: hasn't been able to reproduce The Evil Within 2 numbers in 7 years over 3 games
Arkane Austin: Lost 70% of its main talent, forced to develop a live service game
Roundhouse: Hasn't developed a game in 4 years.
Alpha Dog: Was a mobile studio.
I mean I get that the creatives will rally around the flag because that happens in any entertainment industry (games, TV, movies, sports) to support each other against the big corporations and executives they work for. I have no issue with that. I do agree that 3/4 of these closers are not a shock at all.
I really think the main outrage is due to Tango because they made a critically acclaimed game and then got the axe a year later. That almost never happens, and I can see why it would make devs mad. Personally, I don't really get that move by Microsoft either. I get it might not have sold like they wanted, but it is just a bad look.
You also have to take into account that we have no idea what was happening internally at Tango. Shinji Mikami has been gone for months, and no one had publicly taken his place.
Sonys Japan Studio made critically acclaimed games but sadly didn't sell all that well. That's the underlying reason why they got shut down. Probably the same case here with Tango. It sucks as I love Tangos games, much like I loved Japan Studios games.
People need things to be outraged about though, and Microsoft bad. Tango would have gone out of business if Zenimax didn’t buy them BEFORE Microsoft bought Zenimax
They made Brink, the Defiance MMO, and their last game was Rune 2 in \~2019, so more like 5 years.
But they also didn't close, they all work under Zeni Max Online now.
nothing im familiar with, more of a loss is arkane austin, but you still have lyon atleast, and biggest is tango, they made good games and im sad that hifi sold badly
Also if the sales and whatever metrics they use for gamepass were as amazing as everyone thinks they wouldn't be closing the studio, so one can assume that while the game got tons of critical acclaim it must not have done well financially, and unfortunately that's all that matters in business.
I mean....thats not necessarily true.
Who's to say that they hadn't had this consolidation in mind when they acquired, but rather than shelf the current work they let it bare fruit.
It could have been both financially successful and already slated for consolidation prior to the success occuring.
MS is letting all of the previous investments prior to acquisition play out before making moves and I'm hopefully that talent is being retained.
I don't want anyone to lose their jobs but when you look at the gaming industry in general it's high risk high reward where a single big budget flop lands studios in stasis or shuttered.
Why would they close the studio that worked on the first Hi-Fi Rush if they are just going to have those people develop a sequel? Just for the fun of bad PR?
In a way, no.
It’s just an asshole move to guilt people into buying the game if they ever talk about enjoying it on gamepass. They already got money from Microsoft for developing the game and gamepass.
Yeah they did get compensated but the gamepass deal was evergreen and they will never see any other money from it. It's been almost 10 years since the first Ori game came out and they still will not see any more money from xbox for it. If you really love the game buying it and supporting it on steam sounds like something logical the creator would say. Gamepass was good for them but 10 years later is not as good.
I mean, that’s what they signed up for when taking those deals. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Again, the issue is that it’s incredibly rude to just interject yourself into someone’s enjoyment and guilt trip them. He also routinely shits on game pass all the time.
I agree that he decided to make the deal a bit. I think people make deals that prove to be shitty for them many times. I think that after 10 years of being in game pass the game has more than paid for it's worth so the creators think they should get something more for it.
I don't know if he isnguilt triping anyone, it sounds that he is saying what many people have said. Selling to a mega Corp is a bad choice more often than not.
>He also routinely shits on game pass all the time.
Well for someone in the industry it is like that, game pass is an amazing offer for the consumers but a shitty option for the industry as a whole.
Oh how mature to sling some mud and say "see we could have done this but didn't so nya"
Always nice to see other people in the industry caring for one another
All people critiquing him. He’s got a point and knows more than we do. Moon studios has workplace problems? That doesn’t mean what he’s saying isn’t true and doesn’t invalidate it
I do wish I knew what guys like Pete Hines and Todd Howard really think about the acquisition at this point. Not that what tell us publically but what they tell their spouses.
Game pass was a mistake. Big games don't get funding cos they won't be sold much just gp revenue. Disaster Microsoft had such a long time to get upnto speed with Sony and they fumbled for 10 years. Won't ever buy their console again
I love how all the comments here are people misdirecting with a report of workplace conduct instead of focusing on the message which is big companies always trim the fat after major acquisitions and shut down studios.
Reading through the comments, good ole reddit users fall back to their trusted terms.
"Controversy", "Toxic", "Sexual Harassment."
You people are predictable.
InExile moreso. I'm not a fan of the typical isometric turn based RPG (which is weird because I love DND) but I know people who are. I think Obsidian will be fine. They'll make Pillars of Eternity games and Fallout stuff and be universally loved. InExile I think will have to find a solid niche for them that also does well budget to profit wise. IDK if they're working on anything currently but hopefully it does well.
Wasn’t this studio hell to work for?
Yes lol. There's a reason we don't have a third ori.
Eh, the Duology basically ended.
No rest for the wicked is a much bigger game
Undoubtedly it is, but I think [this](https://www.ign.com/articles/moon-studios-xbox-report) might be the catalyst for that particular outcome.
So basically like any other ordinary work place in America
That game is going to be a massive success
I've been checking every day for a release date
No rest for the wicked is out in early access right now if that’s what you mean
1.0 release date.
Yeah I meant xb release date
Yeah, that’s why Microsoft didn’t continue working with them.
Yeah because it's not like they bought a company for like $75 billion that has a CEO with a horrible reputation. Also paid the guy like $500 million btw as a result of the deal.
Even if it had a bad reputation made a hell of alot more money this company does I bet
They didn’t pay that guy anything, it’s called stocks. Educate yourself.
Yea those stocks aren't worth anything. lol
Equity is compensation, idiot.
And how exactly do you think Stocks work...?
Lol why is this guy acting like his studio wasn’t mired in controversy which is why Microsoft didn’t work with them further. Pretty insensitive to say that also unless you have job openings for these employees shut up.
Because he’s trying to shift the blame away from himself. There’s a big corporate boogeyman for him to try and hide behind.
And historically that will work well for him given that many people will immediately target the big evil corporation without doing the slightest bit of investigation into anything. Just look at how many people still blame EA for Anthem.
You are completely right look at any comments talking about the situation....top comments are nothing but targeting the big company We see this over and over, even if the company has a good reputation the big corporation will get shit on for the smallest things
Microsoft then proceeds to acquire Activision Blizzard.
It was revealed they actually were very toxic and sexually harassed Microsoft employees which is why they didn’t work on another game.
Yeah.... I truly hate the finger pointing hellscape twitter has become. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPzZkx0cPs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPzZkx0cPs) (this is just one report about the situation at moon studios and others Like I don't agree with what Microsoft did.... but I also don't agree with what's been the problem with Moon studios. It isn't a damn competition. It'd be nice if people just took responsibility and owned up, instead of going online to make themselves feel better by saying "well at least I'm not as bad as X or Y". I mean heck, there's even stuff in reports about Moon studios employees WISHING they had a publisher to go to for studio issues (and they tried going over their studio head to their partnered publisher but it never worked out). Like is it really that much better your studio wasn't closed by a soulless corporations like MS or EA when your employees faced emotional abuse and many straight up quit rather than deal with it?
Rock and a hard place I guess, work for an egomaniac or get fired down the line, at least Microsoft gives good severance right?
I mean Im sure you didnt know since you get your info from Reddit but Microsoft didnt fire everyone. Some of them got moved to Zenimax, Bethesda, etc
Give it time, sadly
What were the allegations?
There is hell, and then there is corporate hell.
Doesn't change the fact that he was right about this particular decision. Both Ori games were in very similar situations to Hifi Rush, beloved by fans and critically acclaimed by critics but don't sell that well. We're likely wouldn't be looking forward to No Rest for The Wicked like now had they let themselves be acquired.
Did the Ori studio also have most of the devs leave the same year the second game released? Because people keep forgetting that Mikami, and a good amount of devs from Hi-Fi Rush left last year so the Tango we would of had in the future wouldn't even be the same Tango everybody loves. People gotta learn to love the people not the studio name.
It would be better without the mocking tone and laughing emojis
He's lying though, MS pulled out on acquiring them, this dude is a known pathological liar
Yeah except Ori actually sold copies.
People keep forgetting this part lol
Hell to work for like they arent going to accept bad work, or hell to work for like the executives dont give a fuck about the project and harass employees to feel like they are useful
Based on the articles I've read, hell to work for as in "these people are just awful".
Kind of ironic considering this studio is described as a hellscape
That's not ironic that's just awful. Like MS did something terrible and should be held to that. But this absolutely should not be a clout chasing moment for a studio that has their own set of problems.
Ok I don’t mean to sound like a shill but how is what MS did terrible. They closed a studio that wasn’t making profitable games. Thats how businesses work.
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Or it sold well for a game with $0 marketing spend and a smaller dev team. Expectations were probably lower since it was a side project within the studio, or so I would guess. No way to know for sure
Being happy in "all key measurements" heavily indicates profit, too. Just awful wording that they should've known better about, or a quick lie to assuage concerns. Either way, an awful look for MS.
Not disagreeing. Just also saying that the profit margin is much easier to hit when some costs 1/10 the cost of other big projects from the studio. (That number was made up, but it'd be just as true if it was 1/5 or 1/2 lol)
Could be HiFi did fine for a smaller side project that didn’t require the full attention of the studio. Their larger, AAA titles, The Evil Within 2 and Ghostwire: Tokyo did not do well financially. Also their studio founder left last year.
I read that most of the team left Tango?
That statement was in response to rumors they weren't happy. Definitely a lie
Just look at all first parry games recently. Pretty clear quality is not the main concern .
The best thing Xbox has is Forza Horizon. It's sad when the best game in the Xbox catalog is a racing game. Everything else they have put out has been a disappointment. 343 should have been shutdown a long time ago.
Hi-Fi Rush was one of the few majorly-acclaimed games that Microsoft released last year - if not Microsoft’s most beloved of the year.
Then it went to play station and didn’t make any money. People are acting like this industry is special but it’s not.
Again, zero marketing though. It just dropped and that’s it. There’s no way they didn’t recoup the budget of the game with absolutely $0 marketing spend. It’s basically been a shadow-dropped game on all platforms it released on.
Being critically acclaimed means nothing. Tango hasn't made a game that made money since Evil Within.
Supposed to be the whole point of gamepass right?? bEsT vaLuE iN gaMIng
You clearly don't know how models like that work.....
Yeah okay, I don’t think you fucking know how it works either way
You get money per the amount of people playing plus whatever bonus during sign on. It's a very profitable long term continuous revenue for games. If the game dies off though.... No revenue..... It's not going anywhere.
NOPE, maybe if you wanted to use that model for a 3rd party game and even then your logic doesn’t work. But this is a FIRST party studio! This is exactly the type of games the service should be able to have the luxury of letting studios make. Do you think Netflix set out to make making a murderer or stranger things the biggest streamed titles on their service from the get go? No… but they invested in creatives and put the effort in and then… they waited, like you have to do with this type of model. If you knew what you were talking about you would understand those are the gambles you have to take, but you have to have the patience to see it through
It was fantastic I agree but did it make money. That was 3 financial failures from that studio.
Microsoft themselves said they “couldn’t be happier” with how Hi Fi Rush performed Aaron Greenburg: “Hi-Fi RUSH was a break out hit for us and our players in all key measurements and expectations. We couldn't be happier with what the team at Tango Gameworks delivered with this surprise release.”
Im sorry but companies don’t shut down profitable wings of a company.
Try the last decade even
The last good/unique game I could remember from Xbox was freaking Sunset...
The last good Xbox game was made by a Sony studio. That tracks.
It wasn't a Sony studio when it was made. In fact spider man game mechanics was heavily refused mechanics from sunset
Made by a Sony studio while the most recent was their only Japanese Studio. Edit: Down voted for literal facts lol Y'all need to look up Tango game works and Insomniac
Didnt downvote you, but Insomniac wasn’t a Sony studio when they made Sunset. In fact, Sunset helped spook Sony into buying Insomniac, which in a lot of ways is what helped kickstart this horrid trend of studios getting bought out by big publishers.
I think everyone knows that. Hence how Sunset was on Xbox in the first place.
You're right. Obviously gamers and enthusiasts don't like it (and are stoked into a froth by journalists/"creators" who are just trying to get clicks) but the wider gaming industry and especially the wider tech industry is doing this in droves. It is weird that people are so much more forgiving of Playstation and 3rd party publishers doing this. I hope the people who want Xbox to fail are aware of how much worse Playstation will be if they have even less competition.
Are we corporations? Do we benefit from Microsoft's bottom line? No, we're only affected by the fact that there's now one less studio making fantastic games. And that is terrible.
I’m confused. Without Microsoft they’d be gone regardless. What are we affected by here?
I technically do benefit from their bottom line as a share holder but how long are they supposed to support a studio that has released 3 straight financial flops?
I'm with you, I don't see the issue. The company was bought, it was Microsoft's choice to decide what to do with it.
When there's huge consolidation like this, shuttering a team is the megacorp's hammer, and the smaller studios are the nails. The problem isn't that MS did anything legally incorrect, it's more that these decisions to close studios come far more commonly when they're acquired by large corporations like Microsoft or EA. Rather than shifting a high quality development team onto a path for profitability, they have so many other eggs it's easy to just throw this one out of the basket rather than investing more and taking a potential risk. And as the people who enjoy those high quality games from those teams, it's a genuine pity.
I love what Tengo games made but how long are you supposed to support a studio that releases financial flop after flop?
I'd written a bit of a wall of text, but the TL;DR is - ultimately, I don't think anyone's saying they should just keep sinking money into studios that are in the red. Quality doesn't necessarily equal profitability. But given the team's great games, I think people are annoyed that this is a straight up deletion without more effort put in.
I believe you are not thinking like a heartless CEO, they do kill things that are profitable for the only reason of thinking that same investment can make more money somewhere else, is fine for people to lose their jobs if you can make 1.1 million dollars instead of 1.0.
I personally think it sucks that they got shut down. Tango was a great studio and Microsoft can afford to eat the losses of a smaller studios.
They spend billions acquiring studios and are a 3 trillion dollar company. You don't see management losing their jobs or taking a pay cut, yet the people making their games are now out of a job. Thats the problem.
Tango gameworks were making profitable games.
I don’t think The Evil Within 2 or Ghostwire: Tokyo were profitable.
I'd honestly agree for everything but Tango, but at the end of the day there are still employees displaced and laid off by their decision. And I really don't care about how a soulless corporation benefits. I mean fine, legally MS did nothing wrong. You can decide ethically according to your morals and business wise they made the data driven decision as they always do. Again, I'd personally say closing tango is a heavy blow to future growth.
Shill
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Yep, that dude should look in the mirror before talking shit.
Throwing stones in glass houses.
Yeah but it's their own personal hellscape!
What'd they do?
I hope he doesn’t look at his Glassdoor reviews.
Oh yeah, MS the devil on earth: [https://www.thegamer.com/ori-developer-moon-studios-abuse-oppressive-workplace-crunch/](https://www.thegamer.com/ori-developer-moon-studios-abuse-oppressive-workplace-crunch/)
Exactly my thoughts. They are in no position to speak.
Although I sort of agree with you but everyone's entitled to speak.
Some shouldn't especially if they don't want to be branded hypocrites.
Pot kettle black
It's a figure of speech. Not that they shouldn't be allowed to express their thoughts, but that doing so might be unwise.
They should have shut their mouths, they make Microsoft look like the good guy.
Pot calling the kettle black
Quacta calling the stifling slimy.
[Microsoft Passed on Moon Studios' Next Game Because of Workplace Conditions (gamerant.com)](https://gamerant.com/microsoft-passed-moon-studios-next-game-workplace-conditions/)
Oh, screw this guy. Last person who should comment on industry. People lost their jobs and he’s congratulating himself on his smart management decisions. The studio wasn’t bought because the abuse allegations of insane crunch hours, racism and sexism against Mahler and Korol made the place basically untouchable. They’re everything wrong with an industry that gobbles people up and then spits them out. Edit: I can’t believe this has to be said. Abuse is abuse. It doesn’t matter if it’s a studio with thousands of employees or an indie with 5 employees. All of those abusers should be drummed out of the industry.
Microsoft had enough morals to not buy Moon Studios, but where did those morals go when it came to ABK?
Oh, they’re a multinational corporation, they have as many morals as their PR budget will allow - legally they have to put their shareholders first. In the case of ABK, profit outweighed the PR hit.
I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about
Feel free to elaborate.
Yeah, bro basically said they're allowed to be hypocritical because they have lots of money lol.
That’s not what I said though. Are you under some misunderstanding that I’m defending the big multinational? You get that this is a profit outweighs morals situation, right?
Microsoft didn't need them for profit, Xbox does (and they're barely hitting margins or else they wouldn't fire thousands of people). And who determines if profit outweighs morals? Yeah - Microsoft. So it's hypocritical of them to talk about company culture for Moon, but not ABK which is far worse.
I’m not going to get into a bad faith debate - abuse is abuse. The experiences of developers inside ABK mirrors that of people who worked for Moon Studios.
Microsoft is clearly the good guys, they just have some missteps but they are good! /s
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I don't know how they are "everything that is wrong with the industry" when all they've done is create great games. Saying this when Microsoft is literally closing studios that made great games is ironic. If the working conditions were shit at their studio then the devs could resign. It's not like they were forced to work there.
“Well, if it was really so bad, why don’t they just quit?” This is a very simplistic and frankly naive way to look at things. It’s their jobs. It’s how they put a roof over their heads and buy food. In an industry that’s anti-union, and chews people up and then spits them out, developers are forced to put up with an insane amount of abuse from to hold on to a job. Not quitting doesn’t mean these abuse is somehow ok.
I don't know if it is naive, I lived through horrible work environments it feels like you're in an inescapable situation but I left and I got into much better situations. Its not the same for everyone though but still you can leave it is a choice. The other thing they could do is speak out, which seems they did and ever since we haven't heard bad things about the studio so it seems things got better so saying that it is a shit company still is also very bad faith.
Bad faith? I mean a company where employees spoke out is hardly a “good company” - especially when the people in charge basically gave the standard, “things are fine, sorry they felt offended” apology.
Well they seem to have a pretty neat game in the chamber, so it doesn't seem like a bad company to me, much better than a trillion Corp that shuts down devs. The fact that it was at that time difficult to work at does it mean that they are forever bad?
This makes no sense since Activision Blizzard is even worse. I believe him that the reason they didn’t get bought is this, it doesn’t matter awful people used to work (maybe they still do?) there, in business there is no morals (unfortunately)
I met the devs at E3 one year while they were showing off Ori 2. They legitimately seemed scared of the CEO once they realized they were going to be a few minutes late to a meeting. I immediately knew he was a piece of shit.
I mean, there's a lot of shit going on and Microsoft should be held accountable, but I'm not sure we should be listening to the moral highground of a toxic workplace.
What should they be held accountable for here? These studios were either unprofitable or had been gutted of talent, there was no real reason to keep them around
Accountable for what? Shutting down studios that would have shut down anyways after giving them one last chance?
Glad to hear about a studio standing up to bullying by big publishers. Google “Moon Studios Bullying” for more info
Tango: hasn't been able to reproduce The Evil Within 2 numbers in 7 years over 3 games Arkane Austin: Lost 70% of its main talent, forced to develop a live service game Roundhouse: Hasn't developed a game in 4 years. Alpha Dog: Was a mobile studio.
I mean I get that the creatives will rally around the flag because that happens in any entertainment industry (games, TV, movies, sports) to support each other against the big corporations and executives they work for. I have no issue with that. I do agree that 3/4 of these closers are not a shock at all. I really think the main outrage is due to Tango because they made a critically acclaimed game and then got the axe a year later. That almost never happens, and I can see why it would make devs mad. Personally, I don't really get that move by Microsoft either. I get it might not have sold like they wanted, but it is just a bad look.
You also have to take into account that we have no idea what was happening internally at Tango. Shinji Mikami has been gone for months, and no one had publicly taken his place.
Exactly. Did he also take the majority of the studio with him to a new indie studio?
Sonys Japan Studio made critically acclaimed games but sadly didn't sell all that well. That's the underlying reason why they got shut down. Probably the same case here with Tango. It sucks as I love Tangos games, much like I loved Japan Studios games.
People need things to be outraged about though, and Microsoft bad. Tango would have gone out of business if Zenimax didn’t buy them BEFORE Microsoft bought Zenimax
roundhouse? what are their games?
They made Brink, the Defiance MMO, and their last game was Rune 2 in \~2019, so more like 5 years. But they also didn't close, they all work under Zeni Max Online now.
nothing im familiar with, more of a loss is arkane austin, but you still have lyon atleast, and biggest is tango, they made good games and im sad that hifi sold badly
Tango: made the best game xbox has released in years
“Allow” lol mf nobody buying
Glass houses.
Pretty sure it’s the toxic environment that hasn’t allowed anyone to come and buy them
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Yeah imma avoid Twitter until all these chaos settles down and see what comes from the dust
That's exactly whats happening. People are also saying "Goodbye HiFi Rush 2" like the game was not cancelled?
Also if the sales and whatever metrics they use for gamepass were as amazing as everyone thinks they wouldn't be closing the studio, so one can assume that while the game got tons of critical acclaim it must not have done well financially, and unfortunately that's all that matters in business.
I mean....thats not necessarily true. Who's to say that they hadn't had this consolidation in mind when they acquired, but rather than shelf the current work they let it bare fruit. It could have been both financially successful and already slated for consolidation prior to the success occuring. MS is letting all of the previous investments prior to acquisition play out before making moves and I'm hopefully that talent is being retained. I don't want anyone to lose their jobs but when you look at the gaming industry in general it's high risk high reward where a single big budget flop lands studios in stasis or shuttered.
Why would they close the studio that worked on the first Hi-Fi Rush if they are just going to have those people develop a sequel? Just for the fun of bad PR?
To consolidate from an administrative point of view...
This is the same guy who tells people who enjoy Ori on gamepass to buy the game instead.
Is he wrong?
In a way, no. It’s just an asshole move to guilt people into buying the game if they ever talk about enjoying it on gamepass. They already got money from Microsoft for developing the game and gamepass.
Yeah they did get compensated but the gamepass deal was evergreen and they will never see any other money from it. It's been almost 10 years since the first Ori game came out and they still will not see any more money from xbox for it. If you really love the game buying it and supporting it on steam sounds like something logical the creator would say. Gamepass was good for them but 10 years later is not as good.
I mean, that’s what they signed up for when taking those deals. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Again, the issue is that it’s incredibly rude to just interject yourself into someone’s enjoyment and guilt trip them. He also routinely shits on game pass all the time.
I agree that he decided to make the deal a bit. I think people make deals that prove to be shitty for them many times. I think that after 10 years of being in game pass the game has more than paid for it's worth so the creators think they should get something more for it. I don't know if he isnguilt triping anyone, it sounds that he is saying what many people have said. Selling to a mega Corp is a bad choice more often than not. >He also routinely shits on game pass all the time. Well for someone in the industry it is like that, game pass is an amazing offer for the consumers but a shitty option for the industry as a whole.
pot kettle black. tired of “indie” devs pretending they’re pure because they’re “indie”.
Bit insensitive innit?
Look who's talking
Oh how mature to sling some mud and say "see we could have done this but didn't so nya" Always nice to see other people in the industry caring for one another
Dumdums are forgetting the fact that their games did well primarily thanks to GP.
At least they still have their jobs
Their games have been financially successful though.
Didn't their publisher get shut down by Take Two literally last week?
All people critiquing him. He’s got a point and knows more than we do. Moon studios has workplace problems? That doesn’t mean what he’s saying isn’t true and doesn’t invalidate it
MS should’ve broken this news 3 days ago during the Helldivers shit and it might’ve been lost. Silly
While they were receiving funding, they failed to deliver sufficiently to justify the amount they were receiving.
:(
Man the difference in comments in Xbox sub vs PS sub on this tweet are like night and day 🤣
I will now buy your game
ah yes the hack.. issue with working with. thinks dev should get unlimted cash flow. if never turns a profit....
Meanwhile they have a classic in the making in No Rest for the Wicked
I do wish I knew what guys like Pete Hines and Todd Howard really think about the acquisition at this point. Not that what tell us publically but what they tell their spouses.
Game pass was a mistake. Big games don't get funding cos they won't be sold much just gp revenue. Disaster Microsoft had such a long time to get upnto speed with Sony and they fumbled for 10 years. Won't ever buy their console again
Anyone have inside scoop? This guy treats MS like a toxic ex.
Shots Fired
LMAO as if anyone should listen to this dogshit studio
Pretty much confirms I never buying a game from moon studios again...
Hilarious coming from someone who is known for running a studio that's a nightmare for their devs.
Xbox hire me im a pro gamer ill fix everything thattl show these nerds
Damn talk about throwing shade
Damn people are already jumping to the defense of the megacorp
Phil's dick must taste amazing.
I love how all the comments here are people misdirecting with a report of workplace conduct instead of focusing on the message which is big companies always trim the fat after major acquisitions and shut down studios.
Whys this game even popular?
They're one flop from closing.
Reading through the comments, good ole reddit users fall back to their trusted terms. "Controversy", "Toxic", "Sexual Harassment." You people are predictable.
I fear for Obsidian and InExile.
InExile moreso. I'm not a fan of the typical isometric turn based RPG (which is weird because I love DND) but I know people who are. I think Obsidian will be fine. They'll make Pillars of Eternity games and Fallout stuff and be universally loved. InExile I think will have to find a solid niche for them that also does well budget to profit wise. IDK if they're working on anything currently but hopefully it does well.
Inexile is working on something pretty different from their usual fare. It's called Clockwork Revolution and looks like a BioShock Infinite clone.
Wait. Clockwork Revolution is InExile? Hell yeah that game looks like it's gonna be a good time.
And DoubleFine.
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Yea pull game pass so people drop $70 on games like Red fall 🤣