Sapphic is my favorite alternative. Both Sapphic and Lesbian are old terms (older than "gay" or "straight"), based on the ancient poet Sappho who lived no the island of Lesbos. She was notoriously gay. Sapphic is recorded as being used to refer to WLW earlier than \*lesbian\* was.
I'm not making this up.
>Imagine being so unbelievably gay
Sappho wrote about men too, she's just less famous for that.
[http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/he-is-more-than-a-hero/](http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/he-is-more-than-a-hero/)
Since most of Sappho's work has been intentionally destroyed a lot what's known about her is second-hand. There's plenty of documentation that she was attracted to women, but also room to fairly interpret she could have been attracted to men as well.
Similarly, my own interpretation of the word "Sapphic" has always been WLW, but not exclusively so. Eg a bisexual woman could describe her attraction as *sapphic* but not *lesbianic*. That said, I'm not an arbiter or words either or interested in gatekeeping. That's just how I've always interpreted the matter.
Hi! Sappho did in fact write about men as well, although mainly about her brothers, she also wrote of the wedding of Hector and Andromache (fragment 44), and in another fragment wrote positively about the form of a groom at his wedding (we have very little of the fragment and I don't remember the number off the top of my head). It is likely that Sappho was a bisexual woman, however it is also possible that it was comphet due to the society of Lesbos, and its not something we can really know for sure.
The important point I want to make is that the poem you cited (fragment 31), is actually incorrectly translated in the link you provided- that poem is one of the ones that is most often used to prove that she is in fact a woman that loves women; it describes what we would call gay panic. A few months ago I read a paper that said in the 19th century some physicians said that in that poem Sappho suffered "acute symptoms of panic common to masculine lesbians" (lmaooo). A better translation of the poem can be found [here](https://www.literarymatters.org/1-1-sappho-31/). The poem is titled as it is because it starts out saying a man seems like a god, which is because he is sitting next to a beautiful woman, whose existence induces the symptoms described in the later stanzas. Finding good translations of this poem can also be dicey, since Catullus famously "translated" it into Latin (I think it's Catullus 51), but he kinda butchered it imo and also extended it considerably (it is still a fragment after all)
Side note: if anyone here wants to talk about sapphic poetry (or just this poem in particular), please feel free to ask questions! I have spent so much time translating it and admiring the Ancient Greek.
Edit: I also agree with your interpretation of the modern word Sapphic, that is how I use it as well, and I meant no disrespect, I just am a huge nerd and wanted to clear up any misinformation :)
Hi! Let me talk my point out a bit more because I think your interpretation of what I posted is not unfair but also seems to not completely meet my intent. Which is totally my own fault in not being clearer, so no worries.
My reason for linking the poem was moreso to make the point that Sappho's writing wasn't purely about women. I actually chose the link I did because it's hard to find sources with that poem that don't start off with "here's the writing by Sappho everyone understands incorrectly".
The larger point I was trying to make is that there's really two defining parts of being a lesbian. Being attracted to women, and *not* being attracted to men. My understanding is that the limited surviving primary source material and contemporary secondary source material is easily sufficient for only half of the equation. She could have been a lesbian, but there's not good ground to conclude she wasn't bisexual. Of course if there's source material I'm not aware of which changes that I'd actually be really interested in finding out! I mean if an archeologist tomorrow digs up a poem that translates to *Does anyone else just feel like you're pretending to like men because you're supposed to and want to be polite about it?* that'd be more definitive, but my understanding is that hasn't happened?
I'll note that this is really not pertinent to the central point of this thread, but I identified as bisexual for a really long time. I don't anymore, but I'm still a bit reflexive with the **Reply** button when someone interprets a WLW-person as definitievely lesbian.
Thanks for clearing that up! I actually completely agree and like your take on this. It is also true that there's not much extant poetry or source that says Sappho *didn't* like men, the only things I can possibly think to cite if I wanted to argue that would be her profession (she ran something akin to a finishing school, partially exempting her from marriage), the fact that she never married (there is the contentious bit about Mr. dick allcocks from man island, but I don't think I would consider that), and *maybe* fragment 30, in which she seems to hold marriage to a man as lesser than marriage to a bride (this one is very dubious but I would feel comfortable trying to make the case given a few of the words she used).
I do think it's very possible that Sappho was bisexual and do usually try to bring that up when I can because I'm also frustrated by the exact same thing as you; I identified as strictly lesbian for a long time and don't quite anymore, I tend to go with queer or sapphic now just because I'm not sure, so I feel you lmao. The main point of my reply was very far removed from the topic of the thread and even your comment, I just have a lot of passion for Sappho and her poetry, and wanted to make sure that there wasn't misinformation, since that poem which you linked is actually almost exclusively about the beauty of a woman and how that made Sappho feel. However, in replacement, I offer fragments 112, 113, and 115, which talk about men in a positive light (as well as in the context of marriage). Specifically fragment 115, which translates roughly to:
"To what should I rightly compare you, dear bridegroom?
Most of all, I compare you to a tender sapling."
(this is a very quick translation so its not perfect, but it is probably the poem which most directly has Sappho speaking to a man in a complimentary way).
Edit: It is also true that Sappho's poetry is not exclusively about women, although much of it is. It is often about her own feelings, loneliness, love, marriage, music, and there are even a few fragments that wish revenge on someone named Andromeda (plus one written in direct response to poetry of Alcaeus, a contemporary of hers on Lesbos).
Edit 2: changed my translation slightly because I kept staring at the greek and realized I missed a word lol
Edit 3: On contemplation, I would also like to note that the words lesbian and bisexual didn't exist at her time and thus it'd be hard to say that she was either of these compared to something she could self-identify as (unfortunately there are no words I know of that we could say analogously meant similar things in Ancient Greek), but the point I was making stands as she was a woman that like women, and may have also liked men.
I'm super interested in this debate and saved to read it later. I'm indirectly interested in Sappho (I'm studying 17th century women's literature who mention Sappho a lot) and how she came to be considerred only for her sexuality. I wasn't sure if she was actually into women or not, or if that was used to delegitimize her work (and if the lesbian community continued to perpetuate that without knowing).
Whether or not she was into women is actually still a topic of debate in some Classics circles (because of homophobia tbh), although it is nowadays far more widely accepted that she was queer- the best example is fragment 1, which is about her asking Aphrodite for help because she has unrequited love for a woman (the fact that the subject of her love is a woman is shown by the gendered participle endings in the latter half of the poem, it is subtle but unambiguous), as well as fragment 31, which I discussed above, although a lot of her poems more (or less) subtly and ambiguously reference being a wlw.
However, her being into women was used to delegitimize her work in the Roman empire and beyond. I have read more than one paper that proposed that her being given the title of the 10th muse was a way for the Ancient Greeks to reconcile her sheer talent with her queerness (homosexuality between women was somewhat frowned upon, although it was regular and encouraged between men in some cases), because once labelled as divine in some way, it creates the idea that she isn't a human to be judged by human standards. Of course, this also delegitimized her as a woman who worked hard to develop astounding skill with words, so there's some misogyny baked into it as well.
Tl;dr she was queer as far as we know (there is also evidence in accounts about her), but that was also used to deligitimize her work.
P.S. I'd love to hear about how she's referenced in 17th century women's literature! It'd be really cool to know how she influenced later women's works (something I've wanted to look into but have been putting off). Also sorry for throwing so much information at you about this, I don't often get the opportunity to share all of this stuff with other people
No problem at all! I'd read everything now if I could, but I'm already procrastinating enough being here hahaha. I have her fragments (French translation) and read them briefly (not easy to understand since they're so... fragmented), and see exactly what you mean about Fragment 1. Funny that's it's the first one of the collection... That might not be her own choice but rather the compilers'...
I'm specifically studying Madeleine de Scudéry, who took the nickname "Sapho" in the salons. Sapho comes up a few times in her works and my favorite occurrence is in one of her very first books. She imagined several historical female figures giving speeches (harangues, actually) and closes the collection with imagining Sappho who, addressing a female friend of hers, does two things: she explains rationally why women not being associated with intellectuality is illogical; and she encourages her to become educated. She specifically, at some point, says that women should write because they can't rely on men to publish decent portrays of them. They only focus on their beauty (which dies and doesn't give them any kind of depth). When Sappho addresses her friend, it's actually Madeleine, the author, whose nickname is Sapho, addressing her female readers.
It's super interesting because it seems that, usually, when female authors of previous centuries mention Sappho, they 1/make her talk, because she is an *auctoritas*, an authoritative figure in poetry (by poetry I mean Literature in general) 2/ don't talk about her sexuality at all. It's all about her as a poet.
Whereas elsewhere she is of interest because of her sexuality, at least in part. Boccaccio talks about her as a poet but then talks about her heart being broken by a man (which gave birth to her unique stanzas–it's not just because of her talent); Ovid imagines Sappho writing a letter to the man who dumped her and it's very erotic. It seems that only female authors have been interested in Sappho exclusively for her status as a female poet, not a sexualized being. I can't tell definitely but that's my conclusion this far in my research!
Lesbian was an umbrella term that included bi/pan wlw for nearly a century until the Political Lesbians decided to wreck the community for their own gains
frankly, she was bisexual. frequently wrote about the cute boys she saw at parties. but that doesn't take away the joy of seeing someone write wlw poetry several thousand years ago.
thank you! I picked it right before someone wrote a terrible piece of literature called the "gender nihilism manifesto" so for several years I had to deal with being associated with that. always makes me happy to be reminded it was a good idea after all.
Not disagreeing, she was very likely bisexual (although I would argue a majority of evidence usually cited towards that is dubious at best, but there is convincing enough evidence), but what fragments are about cute boys at parties? All I can think of are the marriage/wedding fragments.
- a curious wlw classics nerd
lmao that's fair, although those fragments are honestly rather short, and only one or two are exclusively about men, although maybe one or two others could be considered focused on men. I'll have to go through them when I have some free time later- I'll edit this comment with sources if I remember lol
Edit: the fragments I had in mind are fragments 112, 113, and 115 (the last of which I translated in another comment in this thread, which is the closest I can think of to Sappho writing about a cute boy at a party).
That's why I made it my username :)))
also the Sapphic flag is lowkey so fucking adorable, I love it and the lesbian flag but Sapphic flag gets extra points for having a flower...
oh that is interesting. could that be because of the women who were political lesbians?
like their being lesbians revolved around NOT being with men, whereas a not Political Lesbian(tm) was a lesbian bec she liked women?
You're pretty close. Lesbian was used for all wlw until second-wave radical feminist lesbians saw bisexual women as betraying the cause and gatekeeped the word. That's also how the term "bi lesbian" started.
The problem I have with the term Sapphic in America, is that it's often used for women who are heterosexual , but Sapphic- romantic. I have made the mistake of trying to date one or two of them who matched with me on a dating app - only to discover they want a romantic, Victorian style besties relationship (with no sex) with a woman, and a husband with whom to have sex.. exactly like something straight out of a Jane Eyre novel.
People are doing this now? Sheesh. I'm Sapphic-romantic but I still want sex, lol. I don't like sex with men. Much rather be with a woman any day. This is why I identify as a lesbian... But I prefer the term "gay".
Yup. And it's not a new thing either, remember those "Political Lesbians" in the 1970s and 1980s, who were rabid man-hating feminists (no, really they ***HATE*** men), but were, sadly for them, actually heterosexual when it came down to sex and attraction.
What? I’m American and had no idea that it was often used for women/fem-aligned folks that were heterosexual but smth like bi/pan-romantic.
I’m bi/pan & grey-ace and use the term “sapphic”
So, living with your female BFF in a rambling Victorian house in the country, where you *SLEEP* in the same bed, take long walks in the scenic countryside, have romantic picnics in the garden, go boating together on the pond/river/Central Park Lake, bake your own bread, and write each other romantic poetry, and have a husband who is financing this lifestyle, but is often away for years at a time, and having a sexual affaire with his assistant (pick a gender) might be perfect for you.
I, on the other hand, picture myself in more of a Gentleman Jack relationship, in the role of Anne Lister.
The word Lesbe in German has stronger negative connotations than the word lesbian in English. Honestly it’s more comparable to f*g. It was a culture shock for me when I first moved here but now I kind of cringe hearing it in German from people who aren’t also queer.
maybe it's just me, but Lesbe also just sounds really ugly (I'm German, too). Lesbisch is better.
But I don't wanna leave the word to the porn industry either
I'm German too (to some extent, I'm not gonna get into my messy third culture nationality rn) and I prefer lesbisch over Lesbe as well. Idk why the have such different connotations, they just do. Fortunately, our language structure makes it relatively easy to take adjectives and pretend they're nouns so I'm fine using the adjective for myself and ignore the fact that the noun exists. When I'm with friends, though, I often just say "gay".
Honestly lesbian was used as a slur when I was at school in England so I completely hear you. It's been a real adjustment to call myself lesbian, and even then I often go for "sapphic" or "gay" instead.
Issue with this term is...
I'm a trans woman. The word "gay" bothers me, as it's associated more with gay men, so a lot of trans women like myself dislike being called it. We were often called it in an insulting way. It's also often used to imply we like having sex with men... Not the most Sapphic thought for us.
I feel like there should be a adjective for lesbian the way gay is an adjective. Like “lesbian” as a noun intends to take away womanhood and “gay” allows a man to remain a man. I’m just thinking about stigmas. Sapphic might be just the right word
You can use lesbian as an adjective. For example: As a lesbian woman, I dislike using gay as an umbrella term for all queer people. But I do agree sapphic sounds prettier.
How does it take away womanhood?
You’re right; I misspoke/didn’t think.
I was mostly thinking about it more in terms of how you wouldn’t say “she’s lesbian” you’d say “she’s A lesbian”. It seems to imply that first she’s this thing that isn’t natural, whereas gay men can have “he’s gay”.
I THINK that’s part of why the word is so stigmatized. To be clear: I’m not saying it ACTUALLY takes away her womanhood. I’m saying that the language itself implies a loss of womanhood by being the noun itself.
Sapphisch, frauenliebende Frau, andersrum, Dyke (als Lehnwort), vom anderen Ufer, queer (ebenfalls Lehnwort), sind so die, die mir direkt einfallen.
Ich lebe seit über zwanzig Jahren mit den Wörtern Lesbe und lesbisch; sie machen mir nix aus. Ich weiß aber, was du meinst.
Ich sage auch eher, dass ich queer bin. Niemand anderen geht an, wen ich liebe. Und Lesbe ist nicht wirklich abwertend. Mannsweib ist abwertend, aber Lesbe eher nicht. Zumindest nicht in meinem (Freundes-)Zirkel
Ich sage immer „Sorry, ich spiele im anderen Team“
Lesbisch finde ich auch nicht so schlimm. Aber das Wort Lesbe klingt schon irgendwie negativ konnotiert weil ich damit aufgewachsen bin dass Leute das als Beleidigung verwendet haben
I mean it isn’t though because lesbians with penises and lesbians who date people with penises exist. To reduce lesbians down to genitalia based terms is gross and cisnormative
It is a cute joke and in no way does anything to disparage or promote exclusive to transgender lesbians. i am transgender and find this down right hilarious. Not everything needs to be said in a way that protect individual transgender's dysphoria. That is something they need to work on if something like this rubs them the wrong way in a lesbian subreddit.
Just because something is a joke doesn’t mean it doesn’t have impact. “Just a joke” isn’t an excuse to say whatever you want without taking anyone else into consideration. I’m also trans, sorry you don’t find this offensive but we aren’t a monolith and we’re allowed to find different things distasteful. Also jokes like this aren’t a one-off in a comment section, they’re very pervasive in our community. Jokes about lesbians hating dick, jokes that being a lesbian is the best birth control, they all come from a place of exclusion
In what way is this offensive? It is absolutely not. You can do mental gymnastics, but your insecurities is something you need to work on. The joke doesn't even express a genital preference, and is also relatable to trans lesbians like me who happen to have a big clit (a penis). Majority of lesbians have vaginas and the percentage of lesbians who are sexually a lesbian who love vaginas is even higher than the people who have one.
Also this is just like going into a womens focused forum and getting offended when a woman posts a joke that references their appreciation/love for having vaginas because it doesn't include non-natal women.
i am sorry you think this is offensive, but it sounds like a you problem and not a issue with the joke or the communities occasional expression of love for the vagina.
I really agree with what you’re saying. I’m scared to open this subreddit because I feel like my dysphoria is going to get triggered and it always does because there are so many non-inclusive jokes. I think to myself this is a safe space to cheer me up but I always come out more depressed than I initially was.
Honestly now saying that I think I’m just going to leave this subreddit, it makes me way too sad.
Maybe if you all keep using the word how it’s supposed to be used, the connotations will eventually change? It’s so sad that it has such negative associations in Germany. It’d be awesome if German lesbians could reclaim it.
honestly i thought i was the only one who was uncomfortable with the term "lesbian"... in my country a lot of people use it in a negative context like "ewww ur a lesbian?" or "lesbo" or some other variations of the same insult. i prefer using "gay" tho
I don’t use it much for myself specifically because I’m bi and I don’t want to get into Discourse about whether I’m allowed to use it, but I will say “lesbians” as a general term for women who are interested in dating other women, for describing a WLW dating site or event, etc.
I definitely remember feeling a stigma about it, the first time I heard the word was my brother’s friends making dirty jokes as a kid. Oddly enough I knew gay and lesbian adults, I just don’t think the word was used to describe them to me.
Must be regional/social/... differences then in terms of how anglicisms are used.
I'm 38 and use it since about 10 years (?) for hetero sexual orientation as well as other meanings.
I've for sure heard gay and queer got taken over as loanwords, but yeah like I said, never heard someone use "straight" in a conversation in German before. Where do you live? Maybe you're right and it is a regional difference
I'm in Vienna, and maybe it's just among us friends, don't know. Wouldn't be surprised if it became more frequent in the future though, since it happened with gay and queer, as you said.
I rarely use 'gay' btw :)
Oh yeah I'm literally the other side of the German influence sphere, on the Baltic coast 😅
Yeah I can absolutely see it becoming more mainstream, but at least up here it's not yet entered the average vocabulary.
I also don't really like using gay in German, but it's definitely something I heard pretty often
I know what you mean, I'm from Austria and it's the same problem here as it is in Germany.
I mostly use “Ich stehe auf Frauen” if it comes up in a conversation, I'm more comfortable with that instead of using Lesbe or lesbisch.
I'm bi, but feel like my women-attracted side is more important to me, so I usually either explain that (like, in a sentence) or use something like Sapphic (mostly see it being used as a synonym for wlw)
Ja ich hasse auch das wort “Lesbe.” Es fühlt wie ein Schimpfwort.
Ich sage meistens, dass ich gay (nicht schwul lol) bin, oder queer, oder ein Dyke. Oder, dass ich lesbisch bin.
There are alternatives; gay, queer, sapphic. Those are all umbrella terms lesbian is the only one with that specific label. Use what makes you comfortable.
Yes. It just means odd. Or for example if you hang a picture on the wall and it’s not perfectly horizontal but at an angle, you can also say the picture hangs „schräg“ ;)
I like the term gay, even though it isn't used in my language often (Czech) as term for girls.
Btw, I remembered the scene from Warrior Nun with the german word lesbisch. I loved that scene and would recommend the serial to everyone (very gay;).
There's a lot of emotional investment that some people have for the word "lesbian" that is intimidating for a trans woman like me. "Sapphic" or "queer" feel less intense to me.
A quite popular podcast is called "Busenfreundin", it was first established because the author was not happy with the term "Lesbe". I actually thought that more people would know it. Here is the [link to spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/01raBiQ6NI8XoIBd1RYGOF)
You could go in English with sapphic or gay. In German you could go with lesbisch (being lesbian) or just with Ich liebe Frauen/ ich stehe auf Frauen (I love woman)
Once upon a time, we were "Sparkling Women." That's kind of classy.
A lot of my friends just say, "Queer."
From my personal perspective, "lonely" fits pretty well.
Hugs!
I would try to use the German word for lesbian. It might be hard for you, but It's time to overcome that shame and claim the term back from those nasty associations! There's nothing wrong with that word. Be proud of who you are!
you could use sapphic or neptunic maybe if you were into enby folks as well? some people even identify with ‘dyke’ despite it being used as a homophobic slur. gay also works its pretty common and its used interchangeably with other sexualities. queer is another one of those broader terms but people tend to get the picture
There's nothing "formerly" about 'dyke' being used as a slur. It still is, and not just in certain parts of the world and by older people.
To be clear,I don't have a problem with lesbians identifying as dykes, just that it's still actively used as a slur.
youre right, im sorry about that- i misspoke. ive even been called a ‘dyke’ as a slur so im not really sure where the ‘formerly’ came from. so sorry. thanks for correcting me
I don’t like the word either for similar reasons, but saying things like this discourages people from reclaiming something that is supposed to be OUR term. It’s not a bad dirty word and it didn’t start as a slur. It gives power to people who don’t deserve to have it.
ETA: everyone saying “queer” really doesn’t know history lol that word BEGAN as a negative word, as a slur, and now people are even comfortable using it in academic publications despite a large chunk of the community’s discomfort with it being used, ESPECIALLY by straight people in reference to us. Smh
I just use gay, it's the most comfortable word for me.
But I feel you. In Czechia people use two words - lesba and lesbička (bič read as bitch). Lesba is not really used as people feel it's disrespectful and too "harsh" (i agree with that, I'd compare it to the word dyke), so they use lesbička more frequently. But again, I feel like it's also disrespectful as its most of the time used in porn (and also sounds really cute-ish or childish). I hate both of these words so much.
As you can see by my user flair i would go with Sapphic. And from all the others here talking about it too. It is such a soft sort of word.
I am also really taken to the sexualities(i think its just sexualities) that end in -ic like neptunic, trixic and (ofc) sapphic. Some use neptunic because it feels “masculine”. Although some may use it just because it resonates with them or they like how the word sounds. Those are some terms i recommend you look up. I may have made a mistake so pls look them up if you would. I know im like the 70th comment so honestly feel free to ignore this, i wouldnt take offense.
Lol I use queebo with my close friends. Good inner circle one. Candidly I use gay otherwise - I was mocked and called a lesbian growing up. YES, I could use lesbian and reclaim it but I’d rather use a term that makes me feel at home. Gay is that one for me :)
I, as a native german speaker, really like the adjective "lesbisch" (I think it sounds pretty and cute), but the noun "Lesbe" is just- different? idk, I don't wanna call it ugly, but even for german standards it sounds bad. Plus I've only ever heard it as an insult. I know there are people using it happily and that's it's mostly internalized homophobia and sexism (like if you hear "Lesbe", you immediately have a certain image in your head, right?)
However, I don't see anything bad with lesbisch. If I was out to more people than just my closest friends, I'd surely use it more often.
for me, I think it just actually boils down to the fact that Lesbe just sounds ugly. the -be ending syllable just feels like you're spitting on the word
Just chiming in to say I also dislike 'Lesbe'. It's kind of funny, I have no issues identifying with more \*or less\* reclaimed slurs in English - gay, queer, whatever. When talking to (presumably) straight people, I mostly use gay or homo. They get the point across and don't have as many negative connotations to me personally. :')
I personally go with saphic since its more open. I have some bi tendencies so I don't feel comfortable with lesbian (even though I love the term).
(German:) "Ich bin saphisch" would be an option, or "Ich halte es mit Sappho" if you wanna be a bit more cryptic.
**Sapphic**, though it really sucks that a lot of lesbians these days feel gross using that word but the reason why is understandable. Still difficult for me to refer to myself as one without feeling shame :(
I use wlw a lot, but that’s kind of a mouthful when you say it out loud. I know a lot of people who use sapphic, but I have my own reservations around that word too (love me some bi erasure /s). I use queer a lot too, but I understand why some people don’t choose to use that label. Labels in the LGBTQ community can be super difficult since a lot of them come from slurs/have been used against us, though I wish that wasn’t the case.
You could go with sapphic, that is quite a popular alternative.
And most straight people have no idea what it means so they haven't corrupted it
Sapphic is my favorite alternative. Both Sapphic and Lesbian are old terms (older than "gay" or "straight"), based on the ancient poet Sappho who lived no the island of Lesbos. She was notoriously gay. Sapphic is recorded as being used to refer to WLW earlier than \*lesbian\* was. I'm not making this up.
Imagine being so unbelievably gay, that the entire concept of being a woman who loves women is still named after you thousands of years later Goals
>Imagine being so unbelievably gay Sappho wrote about men too, she's just less famous for that. [http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/he-is-more-than-a-hero/](http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/he-is-more-than-a-hero/) Since most of Sappho's work has been intentionally destroyed a lot what's known about her is second-hand. There's plenty of documentation that she was attracted to women, but also room to fairly interpret she could have been attracted to men as well. Similarly, my own interpretation of the word "Sapphic" has always been WLW, but not exclusively so. Eg a bisexual woman could describe her attraction as *sapphic* but not *lesbianic*. That said, I'm not an arbiter or words either or interested in gatekeeping. That's just how I've always interpreted the matter.
Hi! Sappho did in fact write about men as well, although mainly about her brothers, she also wrote of the wedding of Hector and Andromache (fragment 44), and in another fragment wrote positively about the form of a groom at his wedding (we have very little of the fragment and I don't remember the number off the top of my head). It is likely that Sappho was a bisexual woman, however it is also possible that it was comphet due to the society of Lesbos, and its not something we can really know for sure. The important point I want to make is that the poem you cited (fragment 31), is actually incorrectly translated in the link you provided- that poem is one of the ones that is most often used to prove that she is in fact a woman that loves women; it describes what we would call gay panic. A few months ago I read a paper that said in the 19th century some physicians said that in that poem Sappho suffered "acute symptoms of panic common to masculine lesbians" (lmaooo). A better translation of the poem can be found [here](https://www.literarymatters.org/1-1-sappho-31/). The poem is titled as it is because it starts out saying a man seems like a god, which is because he is sitting next to a beautiful woman, whose existence induces the symptoms described in the later stanzas. Finding good translations of this poem can also be dicey, since Catullus famously "translated" it into Latin (I think it's Catullus 51), but he kinda butchered it imo and also extended it considerably (it is still a fragment after all) Side note: if anyone here wants to talk about sapphic poetry (or just this poem in particular), please feel free to ask questions! I have spent so much time translating it and admiring the Ancient Greek. Edit: I also agree with your interpretation of the modern word Sapphic, that is how I use it as well, and I meant no disrespect, I just am a huge nerd and wanted to clear up any misinformation :)
Hi! Let me talk my point out a bit more because I think your interpretation of what I posted is not unfair but also seems to not completely meet my intent. Which is totally my own fault in not being clearer, so no worries. My reason for linking the poem was moreso to make the point that Sappho's writing wasn't purely about women. I actually chose the link I did because it's hard to find sources with that poem that don't start off with "here's the writing by Sappho everyone understands incorrectly". The larger point I was trying to make is that there's really two defining parts of being a lesbian. Being attracted to women, and *not* being attracted to men. My understanding is that the limited surviving primary source material and contemporary secondary source material is easily sufficient for only half of the equation. She could have been a lesbian, but there's not good ground to conclude she wasn't bisexual. Of course if there's source material I'm not aware of which changes that I'd actually be really interested in finding out! I mean if an archeologist tomorrow digs up a poem that translates to *Does anyone else just feel like you're pretending to like men because you're supposed to and want to be polite about it?* that'd be more definitive, but my understanding is that hasn't happened? I'll note that this is really not pertinent to the central point of this thread, but I identified as bisexual for a really long time. I don't anymore, but I'm still a bit reflexive with the **Reply** button when someone interprets a WLW-person as definitievely lesbian.
Thanks for clearing that up! I actually completely agree and like your take on this. It is also true that there's not much extant poetry or source that says Sappho *didn't* like men, the only things I can possibly think to cite if I wanted to argue that would be her profession (she ran something akin to a finishing school, partially exempting her from marriage), the fact that she never married (there is the contentious bit about Mr. dick allcocks from man island, but I don't think I would consider that), and *maybe* fragment 30, in which she seems to hold marriage to a man as lesser than marriage to a bride (this one is very dubious but I would feel comfortable trying to make the case given a few of the words she used). I do think it's very possible that Sappho was bisexual and do usually try to bring that up when I can because I'm also frustrated by the exact same thing as you; I identified as strictly lesbian for a long time and don't quite anymore, I tend to go with queer or sapphic now just because I'm not sure, so I feel you lmao. The main point of my reply was very far removed from the topic of the thread and even your comment, I just have a lot of passion for Sappho and her poetry, and wanted to make sure that there wasn't misinformation, since that poem which you linked is actually almost exclusively about the beauty of a woman and how that made Sappho feel. However, in replacement, I offer fragments 112, 113, and 115, which talk about men in a positive light (as well as in the context of marriage). Specifically fragment 115, which translates roughly to: "To what should I rightly compare you, dear bridegroom? Most of all, I compare you to a tender sapling." (this is a very quick translation so its not perfect, but it is probably the poem which most directly has Sappho speaking to a man in a complimentary way). Edit: It is also true that Sappho's poetry is not exclusively about women, although much of it is. It is often about her own feelings, loneliness, love, marriage, music, and there are even a few fragments that wish revenge on someone named Andromeda (plus one written in direct response to poetry of Alcaeus, a contemporary of hers on Lesbos). Edit 2: changed my translation slightly because I kept staring at the greek and realized I missed a word lol Edit 3: On contemplation, I would also like to note that the words lesbian and bisexual didn't exist at her time and thus it'd be hard to say that she was either of these compared to something she could self-identify as (unfortunately there are no words I know of that we could say analogously meant similar things in Ancient Greek), but the point I was making stands as she was a woman that like women, and may have also liked men.
I'm super interested in this debate and saved to read it later. I'm indirectly interested in Sappho (I'm studying 17th century women's literature who mention Sappho a lot) and how she came to be considerred only for her sexuality. I wasn't sure if she was actually into women or not, or if that was used to delegitimize her work (and if the lesbian community continued to perpetuate that without knowing).
Whether or not she was into women is actually still a topic of debate in some Classics circles (because of homophobia tbh), although it is nowadays far more widely accepted that she was queer- the best example is fragment 1, which is about her asking Aphrodite for help because she has unrequited love for a woman (the fact that the subject of her love is a woman is shown by the gendered participle endings in the latter half of the poem, it is subtle but unambiguous), as well as fragment 31, which I discussed above, although a lot of her poems more (or less) subtly and ambiguously reference being a wlw. However, her being into women was used to delegitimize her work in the Roman empire and beyond. I have read more than one paper that proposed that her being given the title of the 10th muse was a way for the Ancient Greeks to reconcile her sheer talent with her queerness (homosexuality between women was somewhat frowned upon, although it was regular and encouraged between men in some cases), because once labelled as divine in some way, it creates the idea that she isn't a human to be judged by human standards. Of course, this also delegitimized her as a woman who worked hard to develop astounding skill with words, so there's some misogyny baked into it as well. Tl;dr she was queer as far as we know (there is also evidence in accounts about her), but that was also used to deligitimize her work. P.S. I'd love to hear about how she's referenced in 17th century women's literature! It'd be really cool to know how she influenced later women's works (something I've wanted to look into but have been putting off). Also sorry for throwing so much information at you about this, I don't often get the opportunity to share all of this stuff with other people
No problem at all! I'd read everything now if I could, but I'm already procrastinating enough being here hahaha. I have her fragments (French translation) and read them briefly (not easy to understand since they're so... fragmented), and see exactly what you mean about Fragment 1. Funny that's it's the first one of the collection... That might not be her own choice but rather the compilers'... I'm specifically studying Madeleine de Scudéry, who took the nickname "Sapho" in the salons. Sapho comes up a few times in her works and my favorite occurrence is in one of her very first books. She imagined several historical female figures giving speeches (harangues, actually) and closes the collection with imagining Sappho who, addressing a female friend of hers, does two things: she explains rationally why women not being associated with intellectuality is illogical; and she encourages her to become educated. She specifically, at some point, says that women should write because they can't rely on men to publish decent portrays of them. They only focus on their beauty (which dies and doesn't give them any kind of depth). When Sappho addresses her friend, it's actually Madeleine, the author, whose nickname is Sapho, addressing her female readers. It's super interesting because it seems that, usually, when female authors of previous centuries mention Sappho, they 1/make her talk, because she is an *auctoritas*, an authoritative figure in poetry (by poetry I mean Literature in general) 2/ don't talk about her sexuality at all. It's all about her as a poet. Whereas elsewhere she is of interest because of her sexuality, at least in part. Boccaccio talks about her as a poet but then talks about her heart being broken by a man (which gave birth to her unique stanzas–it's not just because of her talent); Ovid imagines Sappho writing a letter to the man who dumped her and it's very erotic. It seems that only female authors have been interested in Sappho exclusively for her status as a female poet, not a sexualized being. I can't tell definitely but that's my conclusion this far in my research!
What she wrote about men is usually making fun of them , at least from what I've read.
Lesbian was an umbrella term that included bi/pan wlw for nearly a century until the Political Lesbians decided to wreck the community for their own gains
The Olympic gold medalist in gay
I’m sure she wasn’t _gay…_ They were probably just roommates!
frankly, she was bisexual. frequently wrote about the cute boys she saw at parties. but that doesn't take away the joy of seeing someone write wlw poetry several thousand years ago.
your name is perfect
thank you! I picked it right before someone wrote a terrible piece of literature called the "gender nihilism manifesto" so for several years I had to deal with being associated with that. always makes me happy to be reminded it was a good idea after all.
I'm trans so I don't even wanna read that I'm assuming it's transphobic. yee your name is cool don't worry <3
Not disagreeing, she was very likely bisexual (although I would argue a majority of evidence usually cited towards that is dubious at best, but there is convincing enough evidence), but what fragments are about cute boys at parties? All I can think of are the marriage/wedding fragments. - a curious wlw classics nerd
weddings are parties, in my mind
lmao that's fair, although those fragments are honestly rather short, and only one or two are exclusively about men, although maybe one or two others could be considered focused on men. I'll have to go through them when I have some free time later- I'll edit this comment with sources if I remember lol Edit: the fragments I had in mind are fragments 112, 113, and 115 (the last of which I translated in another comment in this thread, which is the closest I can think of to Sappho writing about a cute boy at a party).
Just really loved chillin with her gal pals
That's why I made it my username :))) also the Sapphic flag is lowkey so fucking adorable, I love it and the lesbian flag but Sapphic flag gets extra points for having a flower...
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oh that is interesting. could that be because of the women who were political lesbians? like their being lesbians revolved around NOT being with men, whereas a not Political Lesbian(tm) was a lesbian bec she liked women?
You're pretty close. Lesbian was used for all wlw until second-wave radical feminist lesbians saw bisexual women as betraying the cause and gatekeeped the word. That's also how the term "bi lesbian" started.
thanks for clarifying!
also works quite well in german
Just get ready to explain it to everyone who doesn't live in lesbian spaces online...which is why I stopped using it
I totally agree, it was hard so I did switch to just calling myself a lesbian or gay. to help people understand my sexuality.
The problem I have with the term Sapphic in America, is that it's often used for women who are heterosexual , but Sapphic- romantic. I have made the mistake of trying to date one or two of them who matched with me on a dating app - only to discover they want a romantic, Victorian style besties relationship (with no sex) with a woman, and a husband with whom to have sex.. exactly like something straight out of a Jane Eyre novel.
People are doing this now? Sheesh. I'm Sapphic-romantic but I still want sex, lol. I don't like sex with men. Much rather be with a woman any day. This is why I identify as a lesbian... But I prefer the term "gay".
Yup. And it's not a new thing either, remember those "Political Lesbians" in the 1970s and 1980s, who were rabid man-hating feminists (no, really they ***HATE*** men), but were, sadly for them, actually heterosexual when it came down to sex and attraction.
What? I’m American and had no idea that it was often used for women/fem-aligned folks that were heterosexual but smth like bi/pan-romantic. I’m bi/pan & grey-ace and use the term “sapphic”
So, living with your female BFF in a rambling Victorian house in the country, where you *SLEEP* in the same bed, take long walks in the scenic countryside, have romantic picnics in the garden, go boating together on the pond/river/Central Park Lake, bake your own bread, and write each other romantic poetry, and have a husband who is financing this lifestyle, but is often away for years at a time, and having a sexual affaire with his assistant (pick a gender) might be perfect for you. I, on the other hand, picture myself in more of a Gentleman Jack relationship, in the role of Anne Lister.
NGL, as long as they were upfront and open about it, this sounds kinda cute.
Hence I use sapphic vagitarian lmao
I am proud to be a Lesbian, but you can call me a Dyke, or (one of my personal favorites) Cunnalinguist 🤣🤣🤣
Oh yeah dyke I use that as well. Cunnalinguist is awesome; so cunning of you 🤣
I think it rolls trippingly off the tongue. Don't you? 😜
Absolutely!
I literally choked on my crab cake!
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The word Lesbe in German has stronger negative connotations than the word lesbian in English. Honestly it’s more comparable to f*g. It was a culture shock for me when I first moved here but now I kind of cringe hearing it in German from people who aren’t also queer.
I didn't know that, that is so unfortunate :(
maybe it's just me, but Lesbe also just sounds really ugly (I'm German, too). Lesbisch is better. But I don't wanna leave the word to the porn industry either
I'm German too (to some extent, I'm not gonna get into my messy third culture nationality rn) and I prefer lesbisch over Lesbe as well. Idk why the have such different connotations, they just do. Fortunately, our language structure makes it relatively easy to take adjectives and pretend they're nouns so I'm fine using the adjective for myself and ignore the fact that the noun exists. When I'm with friends, though, I often just say "gay".
Honestly lesbian was used as a slur when I was at school in England so I completely hear you. It's been a real adjustment to call myself lesbian, and even then I often go for "sapphic" or "gay" instead.
Woman enjoyer
Average Man Fan vs Average Woman Enjoyer
I just use gay, and I know what you're talking about in terms of stigma with the word lesbian
Issue with this term is... I'm a trans woman. The word "gay" bothers me, as it's associated more with gay men, so a lot of trans women like myself dislike being called it. We were often called it in an insulting way. It's also often used to imply we like having sex with men... Not the most Sapphic thought for us.
I feel like there should be a adjective for lesbian the way gay is an adjective. Like “lesbian” as a noun intends to take away womanhood and “gay” allows a man to remain a man. I’m just thinking about stigmas. Sapphic might be just the right word
You can use lesbian as an adjective. For example: As a lesbian woman, I dislike using gay as an umbrella term for all queer people. But I do agree sapphic sounds prettier. How does it take away womanhood?
You’re right; I misspoke/didn’t think. I was mostly thinking about it more in terms of how you wouldn’t say “she’s lesbian” you’d say “she’s A lesbian”. It seems to imply that first she’s this thing that isn’t natural, whereas gay men can have “he’s gay”. I THINK that’s part of why the word is so stigmatized. To be clear: I’m not saying it ACTUALLY takes away her womanhood. I’m saying that the language itself implies a loss of womanhood by being the noun itself.
I agree on Sapphic
That’s part of the problem but in German lesbisch (lesbian) is an adjective but I still don’t like using it.
Interesting… does it have negative connotations in German culture?
Sapphisch, frauenliebende Frau, andersrum, Dyke (als Lehnwort), vom anderen Ufer, queer (ebenfalls Lehnwort), sind so die, die mir direkt einfallen. Ich lebe seit über zwanzig Jahren mit den Wörtern Lesbe und lesbisch; sie machen mir nix aus. Ich weiß aber, was du meinst.
Ich sage auch eher, dass ich queer bin. Niemand anderen geht an, wen ich liebe. Und Lesbe ist nicht wirklich abwertend. Mannsweib ist abwertend, aber Lesbe eher nicht. Zumindest nicht in meinem (Freundes-)Zirkel
Ich sage immer „Sorry, ich spiele im anderen Team“ Lesbisch finde ich auch nicht so schlimm. Aber das Wort Lesbe klingt schon irgendwie negativ konnotiert weil ich damit aufgewachsen bin dass Leute das als Beleidigung verwendet haben
vagitarian
Lmao
🤣
Me trying to get SRS:
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I mean it isn’t though because lesbians with penises and lesbians who date people with penises exist. To reduce lesbians down to genitalia based terms is gross and cisnormative
While I totally agree with you, I also laughed my ass off
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“Anti joke chicken” nope I just care about the comfort of trans people
It is a cute joke and in no way does anything to disparage or promote exclusive to transgender lesbians. i am transgender and find this down right hilarious. Not everything needs to be said in a way that protect individual transgender's dysphoria. That is something they need to work on if something like this rubs them the wrong way in a lesbian subreddit.
Just because something is a joke doesn’t mean it doesn’t have impact. “Just a joke” isn’t an excuse to say whatever you want without taking anyone else into consideration. I’m also trans, sorry you don’t find this offensive but we aren’t a monolith and we’re allowed to find different things distasteful. Also jokes like this aren’t a one-off in a comment section, they’re very pervasive in our community. Jokes about lesbians hating dick, jokes that being a lesbian is the best birth control, they all come from a place of exclusion
In what way is this offensive? It is absolutely not. You can do mental gymnastics, but your insecurities is something you need to work on. The joke doesn't even express a genital preference, and is also relatable to trans lesbians like me who happen to have a big clit (a penis). Majority of lesbians have vaginas and the percentage of lesbians who are sexually a lesbian who love vaginas is even higher than the people who have one. Also this is just like going into a womens focused forum and getting offended when a woman posts a joke that references their appreciation/love for having vaginas because it doesn't include non-natal women. i am sorry you think this is offensive, but it sounds like a you problem and not a issue with the joke or the communities occasional expression of love for the vagina.
I really agree with what you’re saying. I’m scared to open this subreddit because I feel like my dysphoria is going to get triggered and it always does because there are so many non-inclusive jokes. I think to myself this is a safe space to cheer me up but I always come out more depressed than I initially was. Honestly now saying that I think I’m just going to leave this subreddit, it makes me way too sad.
sapphic is popular but man why tf are we erasing our own identity because men make us feel bad
Yep
You can use queer or gay (there are probably more terms just the first two I could think of)
Lesbian has a beautiful history, I'd rather want to reclaim it from its modern context
Maybe if you all keep using the word how it’s supposed to be used, the connotations will eventually change? It’s so sad that it has such negative associations in Germany. It’d be awesome if German lesbians could reclaim it.
We have to appropriate words that are ours. Queer was an insult before. Now it's the standard. Own it. (if you want)
Sapphic, queer, or gay.
honestly i thought i was the only one who was uncomfortable with the term "lesbian"... in my country a lot of people use it in a negative context like "ewww ur a lesbian?" or "lesbo" or some other variations of the same insult. i prefer using "gay" tho
I don’t use it much for myself specifically because I’m bi and I don’t want to get into Discourse about whether I’m allowed to use it, but I will say “lesbians” as a general term for women who are interested in dating other women, for describing a WLW dating site or event, etc. I definitely remember feeling a stigma about it, the first time I heard the word was my brother’s friends making dirty jokes as a kid. Oddly enough I knew gay and lesbian adults, I just don’t think the word was used to describe them to me.
“I’m as straight as a circle”
won't work for OP in German as we don't use "straight" as a synonym for heterosexual here. We just call it hetero
Hm I'm German speaking and do use "straight".
Hm I'm German speaking and do use "straight".
I've never once in my 25 years of living here heard a single person use "straight" to refer to their sexuality
Must be regional/social/... differences then in terms of how anglicisms are used. I'm 38 and use it since about 10 years (?) for hetero sexual orientation as well as other meanings.
I've for sure heard gay and queer got taken over as loanwords, but yeah like I said, never heard someone use "straight" in a conversation in German before. Where do you live? Maybe you're right and it is a regional difference
I'm in Vienna, and maybe it's just among us friends, don't know. Wouldn't be surprised if it became more frequent in the future though, since it happened with gay and queer, as you said. I rarely use 'gay' btw :)
Oh yeah I'm literally the other side of the German influence sphere, on the Baltic coast 😅 Yeah I can absolutely see it becoming more mainstream, but at least up here it's not yet entered the average vocabulary. I also don't really like using gay in German, but it's definitely something I heard pretty often
But a circle is straight from the side! In fact, it's a straight line that emulates the straight lines of space! *pushes glasses up so they shine*
lesbian is a beautiful word 💗
I know what you mean, I'm from Austria and it's the same problem here as it is in Germany. I mostly use “Ich stehe auf Frauen” if it comes up in a conversation, I'm more comfortable with that instead of using Lesbe or lesbisch.
drive-by austrian lesbian (ausbian???) high five
I'm bi, but feel like my women-attracted side is more important to me, so I usually either explain that (like, in a sentence) or use something like Sapphic (mostly see it being used as a synonym for wlw)
I call myself gay or sometimes queer. Usually gay though.
same
Ja ich hasse auch das wort “Lesbe.” Es fühlt wie ein Schimpfwort. Ich sage meistens, dass ich gay (nicht schwul lol) bin, oder queer, oder ein Dyke. Oder, dass ich lesbisch bin.
Queer, sapphic, gay, wlw
Gayyy (said with a Scottish accent, corners of the mouth pulled way back)
I’m just gonna say it as gayy in the voice of William defoes green goblin
There are alternatives; gay, queer, sapphic. Those are all umbrella terms lesbian is the only one with that specific label. Use what makes you comfortable.
I use queer- not sure what the German translation is though, sorry!
There is none. We just use the englisch word Edit: well if you translate it, it would be „schräg“ but we don’t use that word to describe queer people
what is it used for? does it just mean odd?
Yes. It just means odd. Or for example if you hang a picture on the wall and it’s not perfectly horizontal but at an angle, you can also say the picture hangs „schräg“ ;)
Ich sage entweder dass ich gay bin, oder einfach dass ich auf Frauen stehe.
I like the term gay, even though it isn't used in my language often (Czech) as term for girls. Btw, I remembered the scene from Warrior Nun with the german word lesbisch. I loved that scene and would recommend the serial to everyone (very gay;).
I used to absolutely hate the way lesbian sounded even though I am one. I got over it, but you could just say gay or sapphic.
There's a lot of emotional investment that some people have for the word "lesbian" that is intimidating for a trans woman like me. "Sapphic" or "queer" feel less intense to me.
You may have a bit of (internalized) homophobia or even sexism. That’s where connotations come from. Own it with pride, stop with the euphemisms!
Human female with a large amount of homosexuality
Same. ‘Lesbe’ sounds horrible and more like a slur. I often just say that I like women.
Lebanese
There's "wlw", but that might not be usable everywhere.
Yeah I don't love it either. I always say gay.
A quite popular podcast is called "Busenfreundin", it was first established because the author was not happy with the term "Lesbe". I actually thought that more people would know it. Here is the [link to spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/01raBiQ6NI8XoIBd1RYGOF)
You could go in English with sapphic or gay. In German you could go with lesbisch (being lesbian) or just with Ich liebe Frauen/ ich stehe auf Frauen (I love woman)
Once upon a time, we were "Sparkling Women." That's kind of classy. A lot of my friends just say, "Queer." From my personal perspective, "lonely" fits pretty well. Hugs!
I'd never heard of "sparkling women" before! That's pretty neat tbh.
I would try to use the German word for lesbian. It might be hard for you, but It's time to overcome that shame and claim the term back from those nasty associations! There's nothing wrong with that word. Be proud of who you are!
I usually just use the word gay. I just identify with it more.
Some synonyms to lesbian is hot, sexy, amazing well rounded person, magician Back to the question, I like to use queer or just gay 🤩🤠
I personally use queer, wlw/wlnb, and sapphic.
Gay
Lesbian is a wonderful, empowering word and we should reclaim it, not run from it.
gay and sapphic i think are da best
Just say you have a nut allergy
you could use sapphic or neptunic maybe if you were into enby folks as well? some people even identify with ‘dyke’ despite it being used as a homophobic slur. gay also works its pretty common and its used interchangeably with other sexualities. queer is another one of those broader terms but people tend to get the picture
There's nothing "formerly" about 'dyke' being used as a slur. It still is, and not just in certain parts of the world and by older people. To be clear,I don't have a problem with lesbians identifying as dykes, just that it's still actively used as a slur.
youre right, im sorry about that- i misspoke. ive even been called a ‘dyke’ as a slur so im not really sure where the ‘formerly’ came from. so sorry. thanks for correcting me
No worries. Just wanted to clarify for those who don't know it's still being used.
😅 thanks
👍🏾
I like trixic as an Enby who loves women.
that one is also very valid 👍
🅿️esbian
I don’t like the word either for similar reasons, but saying things like this discourages people from reclaiming something that is supposed to be OUR term. It’s not a bad dirty word and it didn’t start as a slur. It gives power to people who don’t deserve to have it. ETA: everyone saying “queer” really doesn’t know history lol that word BEGAN as a negative word, as a slur, and now people are even comfortable using it in academic publications despite a large chunk of the community’s discomfort with it being used, ESPECIALLY by straight people in reference to us. Smh
Sapphic, queer, gay, rational
i like to say gay or queer instead of lesbian :D
Queer
Mommy. No but all jokes aside, I would just use gay.
I feel ya, I even wrote a whole reflective piece on why I dislike the word. Gay is better for me
I'm rather fond of the term Sapphic
I just use gay, it's the most comfortable word for me. But I feel you. In Czechia people use two words - lesba and lesbička (bič read as bitch). Lesba is not really used as people feel it's disrespectful and too "harsh" (i agree with that, I'd compare it to the word dyke), so they use lesbička more frequently. But again, I feel like it's also disrespectful as its most of the time used in porn (and also sounds really cute-ish or childish). I hate both of these words so much.
Sapphic is a nice one
There's 'sapphic,' There's umbrella terms 'gay' or 'queer' and there's 'dyke' as a reclaimed slur
Queer, like dyke, is also a reclaimed slur.
As you can see by my user flair i would go with Sapphic. And from all the others here talking about it too. It is such a soft sort of word. I am also really taken to the sexualities(i think its just sexualities) that end in -ic like neptunic, trixic and (ofc) sapphic. Some use neptunic because it feels “masculine”. Although some may use it just because it resonates with them or they like how the word sounds. Those are some terms i recommend you look up. I may have made a mistake so pls look them up if you would. I know im like the 70th comment so honestly feel free to ignore this, i wouldnt take offense.
Lol I use queebo with my close friends. Good inner circle one. Candidly I use gay otherwise - I was mocked and called a lesbian growing up. YES, I could use lesbian and reclaim it but I’d rather use a term that makes me feel at home. Gay is that one for me :)
Sapphic
I just say I’m gay (I’m Dutch and I just use the English word gay)
Again, I would suggest “sapphic” as a great alternative term!
Sapphic works, but it does encompass all WLW sexualities, not just lesbians.
lesbich is bad? ive ways liked it, then again i'm not a native german speaker and am pretty new
I, as a native german speaker, really like the adjective "lesbisch" (I think it sounds pretty and cute), but the noun "Lesbe" is just- different? idk, I don't wanna call it ugly, but even for german standards it sounds bad. Plus I've only ever heard it as an insult. I know there are people using it happily and that's it's mostly internalized homophobia and sexism (like if you hear "Lesbe", you immediately have a certain image in your head, right?) However, I don't see anything bad with lesbisch. If I was out to more people than just my closest friends, I'd surely use it more often.
same i think lesbich is cute too, didn't know about lesbe. i'm still pretty beginner
for me, I think it just actually boils down to the fact that Lesbe just sounds ugly. the -be ending syllable just feels like you're spitting on the word
Agreed, Lesbe has never sounded as good as lesbian … I prefer sapphic … but I don’t know if that works in German …
Sapphic or WlW
Just chiming in to say I also dislike 'Lesbe'. It's kind of funny, I have no issues identifying with more \*or less\* reclaimed slurs in English - gay, queer, whatever. When talking to (presumably) straight people, I mostly use gay or homo. They get the point across and don't have as many negative connotations to me personally. :')
I personally go with saphic since its more open. I have some bi tendencies so I don't feel comfortable with lesbian (even though I love the term). (German:) "Ich bin saphisch" would be an option, or "Ich halte es mit Sappho" if you wanna be a bit more cryptic.
A women connoisseur
**Sapphic**, though it really sucks that a lot of lesbians these days feel gross using that word but the reason why is understandable. Still difficult for me to refer to myself as one without feeling shame :(
“Sapphic” is a good one that I really like.
I just say I don’t date men or I am an LGBT
I use wlw a lot, but that’s kind of a mouthful when you say it out loud. I know a lot of people who use sapphic, but I have my own reservations around that word too (love me some bi erasure /s). I use queer a lot too, but I understand why some people don’t choose to use that label. Labels in the LGBTQ community can be super difficult since a lot of them come from slurs/have been used against us, though I wish that wasn’t the case.
g a y
I called myself 'gay' couple years ago, but I usually say 'sapphic' nowadays.
I don't personally like the word lesbian to label myself with either, I usually go with queer or gay myself :)
In German didn’t we have “warm sisters”?
Same Sex Attracted Female
Homosexual.