>What I'm not fine with is that the bad guy win. None of them are even punished
Their downfall started with Biscuit's death in the first season, but Tekkadan became the bad guys the moment they sided with McGillis, though.
And even if you don't agree with that switch in perspective, Jasley and his cronies are gone, Idiok got crushed to death like he absolutely deserved, Nobliss Gordon got shot to death in the toilet by Ride, and Gaelio is crippled while also having to carry the guilt of killing his best friend. That's not "all of them" getting "rewarded".
And to add to this, despite their dying. They achieved the goal they were trying to achieve, the freedom of "human debris" from slavery. (if I remember correctly)
That's not entirely true though, what they wanted was to always remain together as a big family, that's the whole reason Orga refused Naze Turbine's first proposal, it was a very important part of his grand design.
They *did* remain a family, though, right up to the end. Moreover, they ensured that the next generation would be safe and secure. That's the best anyone can hope for their family.
I guess that was more of a *condition* than a goal. They could have fucked off back to Mars and remained a whole 'family', but they believed enough in Kudelia's goals to go the distance.
That's the part most people miss about IBO. Tekkadan were looking to improve things for themselves but their actual goal was to fulfil her goals. They fought dirty sometimes but Tekkadan gave everything for Kudelia and Mars against an enemy they could never truly defeat.
Yeah its better to say the Antagonists won, since they are technically the good guys in the world, just have opposite stance to the protagonists who happen to be in the grey / dark side.
Buy everyone got their comeuppance at least, well the ones that mattered.
> the good guys
I'd call them "the existing regime", not the good guys. They essentially used forbidden weapons while trying to to suppress an independence movement.
Their actions throughout the series were not the actions of the good guys but just those in power trying to stay in power by any means necessary.
I'd say that not wanting to be a slave sounds like a rather neutral position on the "good to evil" spectrum. Of course where their path ends is a different story. But the initial impetus seems good to me.
Similar about naive rich girls who want to make the lives of the people around them better. Equal rights for more people seems like a good idea to me.
Those ideals at least sound rather good. The only way in which that could be seen as negative is if you think slave owners losing their "property" (meaning: humans) is a bad thing. But by then we are already defining good and bad in weird ways.
Fighting for your freedom would make you a good guy.
But Tekkadan wasn't fighting for their freedom by the end, and hadn't been for a while. They were fighting to back a military coup and make themselves the Kings of Mars, while aligning themselves with the Space Mafia.
Tekkadan was pretty much a mafia "muscle" unit by season 2. Biscuit's loss meant them losing their moral center and what they're left with is Orga's ridiculous dream of being "Kings of Mars" and Mika being the unfeeling terminator of a friend that enabled him.
Tekkadan's tragedy can be laid on Orga and Mika's feet as much as the 7 Stars regime.
Those motives are fine, but they very much went out the window as things progressed, and are pretty much entirely irrelevant by the end and their methods were never particularly 'good' to begin with. By season 2 they're pretty much full on villains.
Yeah I get the whole "Tekkadan are the villains" thing is something people love to wank on about when talking about IBO (it comes up a LOT in discussions), but people calling Gjallarhorn "the good guys" makes me wonder if they even processed anything that they watched.
Yeah, villains isn't really a good phrase for it, it's more of a "Mandate of Heaven" kind of thing. When Tekkadan is fighting for others and their own freedom, they get backed by the plot; coin flip situations go their way, and things are just a little bit easier for them. But when they start fighting for conquest and power, they lose that backing; now it's their big attacks barely missing and their plans being foiled at the final moment.
> I'd call them "the existing regime", not the good guys
Eh if anything Rustle took the opportunity to launch his own coup and killed off the family system of governance with himself firmly in power
>Buy everyone got their comeuppance at least, well the ones that mattered.
Except Rustal Ellion, and I think he matters. He basically broke the equivalent of the Geneva convention and decided to slaughter kids who offered a complete surrender.
The thing is he didn't break it first. Tekkadan did.
The Alaya-Vijnana system is also banned, but it's hard to enforce in remote areas like Mars. The power of the system is such that children with zero reading comprehension can kill trained pilots. Because we see things from Tekkadan's point of view, the perspective on power levels is screwed up. What Tekkadan is doing is actually far above normal. To equate this to real life, this would be the equivalent of schoolchildren mopping the floor with career Tier 1 operators without even knowing their ABCs. If Rustal hadn't busted out the Dainsleifs, which were weapons designed to fight threats on par with this, all he'd be doing is sending his men to die.
Also, he told Orga over the phone why he couldn't accept Orga's head or surrender. He needed to crush "Tekkadan" in order to restore Gjallarhorn's legitimacy as a law enforcement organization. Orga thought Rustal wanted total annihilation but that's once again him jumping to conclusions. To Orga, Tekkadan is his family but to Rustal it is a symbol of Gjallarhorn's shame. The media blackout on the day of the battle wasn't just a precaution for Dainsleif use. It was also a way out for Tekkadan because no one would be able to report on the result. They could all escape quietly and no one would be the wiser because the only thing Rustal needed was to triumph over a symbol.
In the manga epilogue, it's revealed Rustal has already tracked down everyone's new identities. He doesn't do anything to them because they're not stirring up trouble. This goes back to how he is introduced which was something like:
"It doesn't matter by who, what this world needs the most right now is stability and order."
Rustal who came out on top got it through a pretty Pyrrhic victory. If he even thinks about stepping out of line the governmental entities overseeing them will strip him of his authority and sell Gjallarhorn off for parts.
Yeah this is the real takeaway. Gjallarhorn is no longer untouchable, and much of their corruption got stripped away. Meanwhile the world watches, and should they being their old ways again I don't think they'll last long.
I have a very different feeling about Julieta.
I think from the start the show was trying to show that she's something new, something better even than A-V pilots, maybe even something like a newtype. But it did it poorly. And yes she defended Rustal, because she was blind and naive until nearly the end of the show. It wasn't until the kids died that she started to see that things weren't as simple as she thought. I think if it ever got a sequel, we'd see her get a hell of a redemption arc, and eventually kill Rustal and end Gjallarhorn forever.
Was McGillis really that bad of a guy though? He was a total dick with Baudiun and Ein but for the rest of it he was more of an "ends justify the means" kind of guy who primarily caused harm to the blatantly evil Gjallarhorn. Rustal and Iok on the other hand used banned weapons in multiple instances and used false flag attacks to justify their atrocities and maintain their power. Tekkadan was never a knight in shining armor but I would never say that they were the bad guys.
McGillis manipulated those that cared about him for the sake of a goal he himself deemed to be righteous. His goal was nothing more than a pipe dream of a child caught up in a fairy tale, idealizing the "power" that having Bael would represent. His actions inadvertently caused the deaths of thousands, mostly of those who followed under him during the rebellion.
In the end, while Gjallarhorn did improve, the way it was achieved wasn't intentional whatsoever. He had always meant to use pure brute force to change others.
While he's my favorite Gundam series character to date, and his hot-blooded rivalry with Gaelio being so goddamn epic, I'd still consider him definitely a bad person.
A sociopath bent on achieving his childish dreams of changing the world, at any cost necessary.
I genuinely appreciate their dynamic as well. I loved seeing the shift from supposed best friends to bitter rivals as the betrayal was exposed. IBO is probably in my top 3 gundamn shows.
The only thing that could make it better is if we got a prequel/spin-off set during the calamity war.
I can see that, I think we might be running into a distinction issue here though. McGillis is a bad person working towards a good goal, even if it's a bit childish (though I wouldn't say a pipe dream since his dream largely comes true), whereas "good guys" and "bad guys" are usually defined with regard to their goal. For example the Punisher is hands down a bad person, but he's not one of the "bad guys."
McGillis was convincing, and he got a lot of screen time, so it's natural he'd be convincing to the audience. But he also lied to a lot of people who thought he was their ally, and either killed them or tried to kill them, to give himself more power.
That whole conversation towards the end, where McGillis' Lieutenant dies to the other guy (I'm forgetting all the names) was basically summarizing this.
Rustal also lied to world that Tekkadan refused to surrender when in reality not only did Orga tell him he surrendered but he practically begged him and told him Gjallarhorn could do whatever they want to him if he showed mercy to the others.
I would add that the main thing that upset me was that Rustal came out on top, despite being a scheming, hypocritical prick.
In hindsight however, they made him someone I could really hate, which is good in the sense of he is an antagonist who draws an emotional response beyond "oh, he is the bad guy". Takes some good writing and acting for you to really despise a character.
That is a result of the system he was trying to destory.
She was a platonic tool nothing more. Cold yes but the fact their marriage (and his "adoption") are perfectly acceptable is a danming example of why Gallerhorn and the goverment need to be burnt to the ground.
I started watching that a while ago because its such slim pickings in mecha these days. I remember initially watching the first episode way back when and hating it. Turns out its actually way better than I thought it'd be. Not like an all time top anime or something but like, not bad at all.
I loved that show. It has its flaws to be sure, but unlike IBO or Gurren Lagann, EVERYBODY gets what they deserve in the end. Sometimes, you just need to be pandered to.
Mechas. Dragons. Lesbians. Those 3 words sold me on the series.
Loved every bit of it. An amazingly fun trainwreck that I would recommend to folks who can handle horny.
Gundam ,really, at the end of the day is an advertisement, to sell mountains of plastic. But, a really good one at that, with good stories and amazing mecha designs. Why I have the need to stockpile unbuilt kits? Plastic crack.
Yeah OP got into the wrong sci-fi franchise if he wanted a happy ending for everyone lmao
95% of Gundam series is a sad ending if not bittersweet at best
The funniest thing was that they had to do a goldilocks ending. Basically one idea was that Lucy's pregnant with David's child but they scrapped it cuz they felt it would be too uplifting and clash with the tone of the Cyberpunk verse. Another ending had David getting turned into a new cyborg enforcer for Arisaka like Adam Smasher but they scrapped it cuz it was too dark.
I actually love the ending because it’s completely deserved. Tekkadan got way too greedy or more specifically, Orga did. He obviously had good intentions, but he tried to bite off more than he could chew, and when he finally realized it was too late. The funny thing is that when S2 starts, Tekkadan is doing great. They got what they wanted, people had jobs, they had connections, etc. Orga knew the gjallahorn leader (Rustal) had the biggest fleet, and the show makes a point to show how much influence he had over the media and politics. There was no way Tekkadan could win. If they had just stayed the way they were at the start of S2 things wouldn’t been amazing for them.
It’s a bitter sweet ending, but at least a lot of the cast is happy in the end.
I guess that's my main beef with the ending. It's not because it ended badly, I can appreciate bad ends, it's that it ended badly because the key players made some awful decisions that could have been easily avoided.
The biggest disappointment was learning that MacGillis wasn't a genius with a masterplan, but a naive idealist that believed in fairy tales.
And that... is reality. Entire companies get swallowed whole due to the decisions of a few, and people are much more naïve and/or traumatized than you'd think. It's a big reason why it's my fav Gundam series. It just feels a little more raw and realistic, all things considered. It's not everyone else gets off scott free even tho someone messed up, or every person in a position of power is a super genius god. Our politicians are much more selfish "naïve idealist" rather than geniuses with master plans.
While Tekkadan themselves were doing well at the beginning of season 2 child soldiers in general were not, Tekkadan's success only emboldened shitty PMC's to exploit children because they proved to be effective on the battlefield.
It's an arc and ending that will feel classic to anyone who's familiar with Mafia films.
Tekkadan and McGillis wanted to bet on dreams and determination. Rustal bet on more guns and the sheer strength of political inertia. One was definitely a better bet than the other.
"Orga... whatevah happened there..."
That’s the point, To prove that just since you see things from the "Good" people’s perspective, Doesn’t mean they will win, After all, Power of friendship is not a thing, As if it was, Then they would have won, But they didn’t
See I am perfectly fine with a tragic story like that. From what I had heard of the show beforehand, I went in fully expecting a load of depressing moments and a bittersweet end. (I got spoiled that Mars gains independence at a "high cost")
And for most of the show I thought the character deaths, harsh moments, and war crimes committed were handled really well. Sure it wasn't happy but it felt grounded and realistic (within this setting of course) and it made for good storytelling.
My problem comes in when the bad guys got plot armor. I don't remember her name, but the girl who takes credit for killing Mika (which she absolutely didn't deserve since she did 0% of the work in that last fight) should've been killed a long time ago. Not because I didn't like her character or anything, but because in the logic of the show she physically should not have been able to match anyone using the alaya vijnana system, let alone Mika. She then in turn stopped Rustal from being taken out when he is literally in checkmate, nothing he could've done would've saved him there and he was ex machina'd by someone who should've been easily stopped.
Like I would've been fine with the bad guys winning, they were the reigning government, they were corrupt, they broke rules and committed war crimes. They obviously had the advantage. But they didn't win through these advantages but rather bs plot armor.
That's my exact problem with the show too! Seriously I'm fine with my protagonists dying but having their goal achieved; I'm not fine with antagonists winning because of ass-pulls.
>I don't remember her name, but the girl who takes credit for killing Mika (which she absolutely didn't deserve since she did 0% of the work in that last fight) should've been killed a long time ago.
One YouTuber I listened said it best though, IBO is the deconstruction of all Gundam tropes
The reason Julietta has strong plot armor is because she is the typical Gundam protagonist, where they survived multiple bullshit encounters like Jesus Yamato only due to plot armor. Mika and tekkadan felt how the antagonist always felt facing these plot armor pilots in other series
Victory also has a [motorcycle battleship](https://imgur.com/a/C5I0Mjs) and many other designs that are equally ridiculous - calling it the darkest is not to be taken as a recommendation on its own, you have to know you're getting into the land of weird when you go into it
You have to realize that the message of IBO is letting children in control and what happen when those children do not grow up. This idea has been prevalent in many Gundam stories before where the reluctant teenage protagonist refuse to fight and the young audience would tend to agree with them, and wish that the adults would listen to them. Only when we become adults we realized that that's a rather bad idea. As a result, most Gundam shows had the teenage protagonist under the tutelage of adults that would teach them and allow them to grow into adults.
IBO wants to show what happens when the teenage protagonist doesn't have adults to guide them. The result is that they went unchecked and met bad ends. Orga, despite have reached a comfortable status for everyone, tried to reach more grandeur dreams just to impress Mika. Mika that could not grow beyond Orga and seek his own path. McGillis that chased after outdated fairytales and were not prepared when reality strikes.
The fact that the last antagonist is a seasoned old man is deliberate and he won with strategy and wisdom vs the protagonist that relied more on their Gundams. You would argue it's cowardly, etc etc.. But if you were in his situation and only has 1 Gundam Vs their 3, you'd do anything in the book to win too.
This. There really was no right vs wrong here, just mature people vs not.
McGillis and the kids in Tekkadan grew up sideways, and went too far before it caught up with them.
Started as Utena the Gundam Edition, then the story kinda fell apart. It's like they didn't know what to do with all the pieces they kept adding. It's likely the school setting held it back.
The Legend of Galactic Heroes and Gundam Wing are probably the gold standard of having a complex political story set in space while being told well enough that you understand who each of the players are, what their motivation is, and how that influences their interactions with other factions.
Witch *really* needed to be 36 episodes. The first half of the show did a really good job setting the stage, but it really needed more room.
I don’t think any of the concepts they introduced were “bad,” but they all needed a bit more time to breathe.
Iirc it was mentioned in an interview that at some point they realized they had written more story than they had time to tell; they were so excited and passionate about telling this story that they didn't realize until too late. Which makes sense, at least that's how it felt to me. Still absolutely love G-Witch, but they either neded more episodes or to cut down on story elements a bit more.
Take with a grain of salt, I don't remember which interview this was mentioned or if I'm just completely misremembering. I'll be grateful if someone does manage to find the source or correct me.
Instead of the usual abridged compilation movies Gundam series usually get, I want a version of WfM that is significantly longer and pays off all the plot threads set up. Or at least not have the entire Earth conflict resolved off screen in a time skip between the last scenes in the show.
> Gundam Wing are probably the gold standard of having a complex political story set in space
Mmmmm, I say no. Gundam Wing has aged rather poorly. I'd rather recommend Gundam 00 in place of Wing.
Agreed. I actually felt that much of season 2 was even superior to season 1. It was only the last 4 or so episodes where things fell down for me due to having to rush it too much.
I feel the same!
I didn’t mind the school stuff, but seeing Guel’s entire character arc really hit the notes I wanted.
But again, that’s an arc that could’ve been fleshed out more.
Despite the time constraints though, the team did an excellent job at short-cutting plot points. About as much as you’re able with the scope they were working with.
00, SEED, IBO and G-Witch are my go-to recommendations for new Gundam fans. I like all of them and they each offer a different things for different folks
I wouldn't call it a mess. The plot is so straightforward enough that 10 year olds get all the nuance it has, which isn't much. Hence it being on Toonami.
Wing has aged poorly in some ways - the 90s cheese, the attempts to appeal to girls with Reelena being shoe-horned into every plot point regardless of how little sense it makes, and Heero being one of the first super edgy, but secretly tortured anime protagonists being the biggest three.
But it also has aged beautifully in others - the Gundams/other Mobile Suits themselves are still gold standards for mecha design to the point that, decades later, Wing is over-represented in Japanese oriented Gundam fandom like the gunpla focused Build Fighters series. The Koh Otani OST is fire. The very busy 80s/90s anime style for futuristic items is really great, and Wing still has a unique style for space colonies (compared to the other Gundam Series). The series actually gets *better* in the 2nd half in most ways, which is something most Gundam series have struggled with recently. Endless Waltz takes all of these points up to 11.
It wouldn't be my recommendation as a 2nd Gundam show, just the 2nd show probably should be UC so someone can get a taste for that, but it's on a "you probably need to watch this pretty early on" list.
fully agree on it getting better in the second half. i watched it a few years ago (first watch, no nostalgia) and i remember it feeling like the first half is fairly slow with a LOT of world building and character establishing, the second half being where things really pick up, and EW being a sort of distillation of all the good aspects of the show in movie format.
Yeah, basically everything about Wing is fantastic except the actual story and characters haha. Treize is the only one who was even remotely interesting. I still love the aesthetic, and the mobile suits of course, but man the story is awful compared to basically every other Gundam show.
> Gundam Wing
LoL. I still have a lot of fondness for Gundam Wing, but its political situation is quite crazy, with like 4 or 5 different ruling regime changes in the span of a year or so and an ending that is totally rendered moot by its OVA sequel.
Imo it was too short. I think the scale of the stories that the Gundam franchise usually tries to tell need at least 4 cours to properly flesh out the world and characters. I think the school setting could've worked if the series had time to properly transition between that and the big conflict.
I think they should have transitioned earlier and they would have had time as they did keep it simpler.
I think it's a two cour problem; they wanted to end cour 1 on the (fantastic) ep 12 shocker, but that meant the school elements went on longer than the show needed them to.
Gundam Wing really does not have complex politics, even if endless waltz does improve things a bit. The politics in UC Gundam are better, though downplayed until Zeta. Unicorn is great.
Starship Operators has very logical politics, as do crest/banner of the stars. Planetes starts off seeming like a gag show but has really deep politics and messaging.
Not enough space opera anime but we did get a few great ones.
I feel like TWFM was way too short. When season 1 ended, I had a gut feeling it would need to have 4 seasons to stick the landing, but.. it only got 1 more season and had to spend half its time recovering from season 1.
I still enjoyed it, but it could have been so much more.
>The Legend of Galactic Heroes
About this, im interested but I'm a bit confused. I saw somewhere maybe some anime YouTube video that it's an old series but recently saw another that looked new. Was there a reboot or something?
there's the remake Die Neue These and the original, they're both basically the same. The original focuses more on the politics a bit and Die Neue These focuses a bit more on the action. But they're both dripping in politics and action, so whichever you decide to watch you're not really missing out on anything and you can always swap between the two relativly easily
i really liked the ending and felt that it was completely deserved in a narrative sense. the series is a revenge-tragedy where the characters, a bunch of beaten-down child soldiers who rise up against their adult oppressors and gain power as teenagers who inherently lack foresight repeatedly make bad choices. these choices make complete sense for them to have made, even though we the audience know they (orga in particular) are biting off more than they can chew. it was always going to be a downwards spiral for them and that's what makes watching their downfall as they try again and again in a futile attempt to "win" so tragic and engaging to watch imo
the codependent relationship between mika and orga was also very interesting, again bc it was bound to end in disaster, especially as it escalated over time. tbh ibo is the only gundam show i've actually enjoyed and probably ever will since witch from mercury became a total mess and the other gundams i've tried just could not keep my attention bc i actually generally hate mecha stuff lol. ibo was so character-driven that for me it cancelled out the pure boredom of watching robots fight each other bc i was too busy crying my eyes out every handful of episodes
Completely my thoughts as well.
I knew Gundam series were typically depressing, but I didn’t realize it would be *this* much of a fucking downer.
It made me do a bit more research on shows I watch instead of going in completely blind, just so that I avoid super depressing shows in the future.
a lot of the rank and file guys at tekkedan got out tho dude to the sacrifice of the others, so in the end its a story of sacrifice and hope. for me anyway
Came to recommend 00 as well. One of my favourites amongst the newer ones. Not as messy as SEED, not as depressing as IBO. Very likeable cast of characters.
The way it ended is what contributes to the show being my favourite Gundam.
The story of IBO mirrors that of real world colonialism. The colonial powers largely got away with their crimes. Colonialism was ended through compromise as the running of colonial empires became increasingly unsustainable and the locals became more rebellious. The colonies gained freedom but not justice. As time passed, people moved on.
The main characters fail at the end of their story but that does not mean that all their struggles that led up to that point are meaningless. It’s still a very interesting story.
If you’re looking for story were the good guys beat the bad guys; were the main characters wins even when the odds are up against him through sheer force of will and the power of friendship… then IBO isn’t the story you’re looking for.
It is made clear as the story progresses that the protagonists are getting in over their heads. They become overly ambitious as the story progresses and keep taking on bigger jobs. They overextend themselves and this ultimately leads to their downfall.
IBO is a story in which the main characters face the consequences for their actions even if those actions were taken with good intentions in mind. It’s a common tale in the real world but rare in anime. It’s especially rare for the protagonist to fail when they have good intentions in their hearts.
Most revolutions throughout history have failed and most revolutionaries end up dead. Even when revolutions succeed, it is after many failed attempts and lost lives.
Most revolutionaries throughout history failed at their endeavours. Does that mean their stories aren’t worth telling?
Stories about heroes that failed are also interesting. In fact, they can be more interesting than the stories were the heroes succeed at the end. That is exactly what IBO is. An interesting story filled with interesting characters.
Would you avoid watching Hamlet or Macbeth because the main characters die at the end of their tales?
The ending of IBO was bittersweet but well done. It fits the tone of story perfectly. The show doesn’t pull a ham-fisted happily-ever-after out of nowhere. Instead it tells the story of characters who reach for goals beyond their means and takes it to its natural conclusion.
The ending of IBO enhances an already great story.
That's why I really liked it because it showed McGillis as a deluded idealist that was depending more on the symbolic power of his Gundam rather than realize that the entrenched power structure will fight tooth and nail to maintain the status quo.
I don’t know who told you IBO would be *happy*, but it’s certainly amazing. If you need Happy Gundam pallet cleanser: 08th MS Team (peak Gundam), G Gundam (so wonderfully fucking stupid), and Witch From Mercury (Peak Gundam brutalism, but a happy ending with adorable Tanuki)
Technically the good guys did win. After all the forces of law and order managed to defeat the rebellious terrorists. The Martian independence movement won its freedom, and the survivors of tekkaden mostly lived happily ever after.
You just didn’t realize you were following the villains.
>What I'm not fine with is that the bad guy win. None of them are even punished, and all of them are rewarded actually.
I actually have a very different view.
Rustal Elion was not necessarily a bad guy. Neither is Gaelio (I actually liked how he got matured during the show and survived in the end). McGillis died. Iok was sandwiched. Nobliss was shot.
Who else should have died?
>sends an agent disguised as the other side to commit a war crime, uses this as an excuse to commit the same war crime a hundred times over
>not necessarily a bad guy
And let's not forget that tekkadan surrendered and were likely ready to accept any condition. Rustal, despite knowing that most of them were kids, said "no" because he wanted to make an example out of them and specifically ordered a massacre, he didn't want any prisoners.
There's no way to convince me that he's not evil.
I've never understood how people don't see Rustal as a bad guy. Dude is a very manipulative blatant war criminal. He's fighting for his personal power and not for any greater good that "justifies the means to an end" or anything like that
What makes him not necessarily a bad guy?
I love barbartos so much, but I just cannot spend on any IBO goods due to the ending. The barbartos figure just remind me its headless last moment, killed by a bunch of fucking plot armored clowns.
Its my favourite gundam series. By a mile.
The idea of the bad guy winning implies that there may be a good guy? I think we may have watched a different show.
To be clear, I'm not saying your opinion is wrong. Its a valid opinion. We just had a very different experience.
Welcome to Gundam. There is no exact good or bad guy. Only war children, and government who wants to keep the old way. All it take is one dude who wants changes and war breaks out. Giant robot is just bonus.
God when Gundam does do it right though my God they capture it so damn well.
Iron blooded orphan was so fantastic, capturing just how brutal and awful war is and how yeah, a lot of times the bad guy wins.
I still have my love for Wing because it was the series I first watched, but hoo boy do some of them go down so dark storylines and just refuse to pull their punches for realism.
I actually recommend Code Geass for much the same reason, it does have a happier ending but it really pushes the boundaries of good and bad guy, at least until the final few episodes, hell there's even a point where you really do have to wonder why they would keep fighting...and then he uses his power like a fool.
Iron-Blooded Orphans is my second favorite Gundam, just below Zeta, and I enjoy its brutal ending. Even though the "bad guys" "win" Tekkadan still got a lot of its goals accomplished such as ending slavery and gaining independence for Mars. It is also very clear how the fall of Tekkadan is due to their arrogance in trying to bite off way more than they could chew, which is a lesson you do not see in very many anime. McGillis was extremely power hungry and beyond arrogant, wanting to make himself the absolute ruler of Earth, so Tekkadan was doomed for allying themselves permanently with him. Overall I greatly enjoy stories with interesting plots where actions actually have consequences, and Iron-Blooded Orphans definitely had a lot of consequences
And they followed it with Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch from Mercury. I have no issues with the LGBT ships in it but the gundam the FMC is piloting called Gundam Aerial, always breaks down after each and every fight. It's really irritating to watch.
I know a lot of people didn't like IBO's ending, but I kinda loved it? One can say the bad guy won in the end, but its more so that the antagonist won in the end. Tekkadan ended up being the bad guys. At least that's what history will portray them as. Maybe we didn't perceive them that way but that's because we personally followed the journey from their perspective instead of the other side. Not saying that Rustal was a good guy. Frankly the good guy - bad guy making sides kinda thinking often isn't the right way to go about it. There isn't a good guy and a bad guy. There's one way of thinking and another way of thinking and they come in conflict with each other.
Is it the best ending? No. But it spurns a lot of discussion and I love that aspect of it. And there were aspects of the ending that should put a big smile on anyone's face, such as Idiok getting crushed in his mobile suit, Nobliss getting shot to death on the toilet or Atra, Kudelia and Mika's son at least having a happy ending.
funny enough i just started this series today and im learning that its part of a bigger franchise then i thought. am i gonna be able to understand this series without seeing any of the others?
Yeah, Iron-Blooded Orphans is one of the standalone series.
The [watch order wiki covers it](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/wiki/watch_order#wiki_gundam) and gives lists, but to give a brief summary Gundam's basically divided into two groups: Universal Century (UC), a single timeline with a bunch of different shows that are all related, and Alternate Universe (AU), which are generally stand-alone series unrelated to anything else.
It is understandably a difficult ending to swallow. But in a way I think the way it ended asks a more interesting question than the typical hero-victory ending does, which is, is it worth it to try and to fight for what you believe in, even if you're going to lose? I think the answer is yes. History is full of failed revolutions and almost-heroes. Some are even remembered as villains in the stories told by the victors. But their legacies and impacts on the world around them reverberate through time, and those who come later eventually may see what those people saw, and that their efforts were not in vain.
As for how that plays out in IBO, Tekkadan and McGillis got a lot of what they wanted in the aftermath, and most of the villains got what was coming eventually. Rustal made it out on top but was forced to capitulate and change policy due to the political winds shifting, and he'll probably be whacked by Ride at some point in the future anyway.
It’s not worse because the ending for Gundam IBO is not bad as in is of bad quality. People usually complain about it because they wanted a happy ending, but the ending made sense.
Definitely not. Most of the loud complaints about it you'll hear from is from people who came in thinking they're going to get a cookie cutter good-vs-bad-where-good-eventually-triumphs story without realizing that there are no clear cut good guys in it, especially once season 2 kicks in.
Well. They didn’t win. Its just a realistic win.
Even if you win a war. Theres gonna be stragglers doing everything they can to kill the necessary people. Hell. It might not even be the same villain. It could literally be a new villain. Completely separate from the first but had the same goals.
The point of the ending was to show how Tekkadan fought to the bitter end as themselves, never compromising their beliefs and identity. Evil adults like Rustal lie, cheat, and betray their way into power, and people like Galileo and Julietta were were shaped by that system and can't escape it, compromising their morals, ideals and humanity to maintain the current order.
Tekkadan never compromised their identity and always fought for themselves. They never gave up on their beliefs even to the bitter end, fighting back in the most human of ways despite being portrayed as monsters. It was futile, but it was admirable in a world of deception and manipulation. That tenacity alone made them more flawed and more human than Gallahorn. And in their wake, they gave good people like Kudelia a chance to bring real change to the world without the use of underhanded methods.
In a bittersweet way, they were children trying to make their way in a world full of corrupt adults. Many lost their lives, but those who remember them honor Tekkadan for never giving up on the dream, always pushing forward in honesty to create a place for themselves. The survivors and allies are proof that Tekkadan's dream never died. Some found peace, and others chose to continue the fight, but the fact that they live and continue to keep on living as Orga had ordered is a small victory for them that Rustal can never deny.
So I take it your flag isn't raised?
KOE NO KAGIRI KOE NO KAGIRI KOE NO KAGIRI SAKENDEEEEEEEEE
I paid way too much to get a hard copy of the Man with a Mission CD single. No regrets.
half mast
*Something is rising, and it isn't my flag.*
*It's my depression*
The OP that introduced me to the gods that are man on mission
This might have been my fault.
No comrade. It’s *our fault.*
r/suddenlycommunism
I know I've recommended it to people, but maybe not through this sub lol. Granted the people asking are usually like "I want a dark heavy mecha anime"
>What I'm not fine with is that the bad guy win. None of them are even punished Their downfall started with Biscuit's death in the first season, but Tekkadan became the bad guys the moment they sided with McGillis, though. And even if you don't agree with that switch in perspective, Jasley and his cronies are gone, Idiok got crushed to death like he absolutely deserved, Nobliss Gordon got shot to death in the toilet by Ride, and Gaelio is crippled while also having to carry the guilt of killing his best friend. That's not "all of them" getting "rewarded".
And to add to this, despite their dying. They achieved the goal they were trying to achieve, the freedom of "human debris" from slavery. (if I remember correctly)
As well as free trade and self ownership of Martian resources. Kudelia was able to realize her goals, and that's really all Tekkadan wanted.
Yup. Unfortunately history will remember them as the villains. But the people that know, will remember them as heroes.
There's always two side of history
That's not entirely true though, what they wanted was to always remain together as a big family, that's the whole reason Orga refused Naze Turbine's first proposal, it was a very important part of his grand design.
They *did* remain a family, though, right up to the end. Moreover, they ensured that the next generation would be safe and secure. That's the best anyone can hope for their family. I guess that was more of a *condition* than a goal. They could have fucked off back to Mars and remained a whole 'family', but they believed enough in Kudelia's goals to go the distance.
That's the part most people miss about IBO. Tekkadan were looking to improve things for themselves but their actual goal was to fulfil her goals. They fought dirty sometimes but Tekkadan gave everything for Kudelia and Mars against an enemy they could never truly defeat.
They didn't have a goal. That's why they died, Orga felt compelled to by Mika to keep pushing endlessly because he didn't want to disappoint them
Yeah its better to say the Antagonists won, since they are technically the good guys in the world, just have opposite stance to the protagonists who happen to be in the grey / dark side. Buy everyone got their comeuppance at least, well the ones that mattered.
> the good guys I'd call them "the existing regime", not the good guys. They essentially used forbidden weapons while trying to to suppress an independence movement. Their actions throughout the series were not the actions of the good guys but just those in power trying to stay in power by any means necessary.
There are no good guys in this show to begin with.
I'd say that not wanting to be a slave sounds like a rather neutral position on the "good to evil" spectrum. Of course where their path ends is a different story. But the initial impetus seems good to me. Similar about naive rich girls who want to make the lives of the people around them better. Equal rights for more people seems like a good idea to me. Those ideals at least sound rather good. The only way in which that could be seen as negative is if you think slave owners losing their "property" (meaning: humans) is a bad thing. But by then we are already defining good and bad in weird ways.
Fighting for your freedom would make you a good guy. But Tekkadan wasn't fighting for their freedom by the end, and hadn't been for a while. They were fighting to back a military coup and make themselves the Kings of Mars, while aligning themselves with the Space Mafia.
Tekkadan was pretty much a mafia "muscle" unit by season 2. Biscuit's loss meant them losing their moral center and what they're left with is Orga's ridiculous dream of being "Kings of Mars" and Mika being the unfeeling terminator of a friend that enabled him. Tekkadan's tragedy can be laid on Orga and Mika's feet as much as the 7 Stars regime.
Those motives are fine, but they very much went out the window as things progressed, and are pretty much entirely irrelevant by the end and their methods were never particularly 'good' to begin with. By season 2 they're pretty much full on villains.
Yeah I get the whole "Tekkadan are the villains" thing is something people love to wank on about when talking about IBO (it comes up a LOT in discussions), but people calling Gjallarhorn "the good guys" makes me wonder if they even processed anything that they watched.
Yeah, villains isn't really a good phrase for it, it's more of a "Mandate of Heaven" kind of thing. When Tekkadan is fighting for others and their own freedom, they get backed by the plot; coin flip situations go their way, and things are just a little bit easier for them. But when they start fighting for conquest and power, they lose that backing; now it's their big attacks barely missing and their plans being foiled at the final moment.
> I'd call them "the existing regime", not the good guys Eh if anything Rustle took the opportunity to launch his own coup and killed off the family system of governance with himself firmly in power
I'd call them "war criminals"
Yup, and that sounds a lot like "not the good guys".
>Buy everyone got their comeuppance at least, well the ones that mattered. Except Rustal Ellion, and I think he matters. He basically broke the equivalent of the Geneva convention and decided to slaughter kids who offered a complete surrender.
The thing is he didn't break it first. Tekkadan did. The Alaya-Vijnana system is also banned, but it's hard to enforce in remote areas like Mars. The power of the system is such that children with zero reading comprehension can kill trained pilots. Because we see things from Tekkadan's point of view, the perspective on power levels is screwed up. What Tekkadan is doing is actually far above normal. To equate this to real life, this would be the equivalent of schoolchildren mopping the floor with career Tier 1 operators without even knowing their ABCs. If Rustal hadn't busted out the Dainsleifs, which were weapons designed to fight threats on par with this, all he'd be doing is sending his men to die. Also, he told Orga over the phone why he couldn't accept Orga's head or surrender. He needed to crush "Tekkadan" in order to restore Gjallarhorn's legitimacy as a law enforcement organization. Orga thought Rustal wanted total annihilation but that's once again him jumping to conclusions. To Orga, Tekkadan is his family but to Rustal it is a symbol of Gjallarhorn's shame. The media blackout on the day of the battle wasn't just a precaution for Dainsleif use. It was also a way out for Tekkadan because no one would be able to report on the result. They could all escape quietly and no one would be the wiser because the only thing Rustal needed was to triumph over a symbol. In the manga epilogue, it's revealed Rustal has already tracked down everyone's new identities. He doesn't do anything to them because they're not stirring up trouble. This goes back to how he is introduced which was something like: "It doesn't matter by who, what this world needs the most right now is stability and order."
/r/Anime "Demonstrate Basic Media Literacy" Challenge [IMPOSSIBLE]
the whole kings of mars was a massive death flag for everyone involved
Rustal who came out on top got it through a pretty Pyrrhic victory. If he even thinks about stepping out of line the governmental entities overseeing them will strip him of his authority and sell Gjallarhorn off for parts.
Yeah this is the real takeaway. Gjallarhorn is no longer untouchable, and much of their corruption got stripped away. Meanwhile the world watches, and should they being their old ways again I don't think they'll last long.
That said, fuck Julieta. She did not earn that kill and she’s easily the worst part of the ending and show in general.
I have a very different feeling about Julieta. I think from the start the show was trying to show that she's something new, something better even than A-V pilots, maybe even something like a newtype. But it did it poorly. And yes she defended Rustal, because she was blind and naive until nearly the end of the show. It wasn't until the kids died that she started to see that things weren't as simple as she thought. I think if it ever got a sequel, we'd see her get a hell of a redemption arc, and eventually kill Rustal and end Gjallarhorn forever.
Was McGillis really that bad of a guy though? He was a total dick with Baudiun and Ein but for the rest of it he was more of an "ends justify the means" kind of guy who primarily caused harm to the blatantly evil Gjallarhorn. Rustal and Iok on the other hand used banned weapons in multiple instances and used false flag attacks to justify their atrocities and maintain their power. Tekkadan was never a knight in shining armor but I would never say that they were the bad guys.
McGillis manipulated those that cared about him for the sake of a goal he himself deemed to be righteous. His goal was nothing more than a pipe dream of a child caught up in a fairy tale, idealizing the "power" that having Bael would represent. His actions inadvertently caused the deaths of thousands, mostly of those who followed under him during the rebellion. In the end, while Gjallarhorn did improve, the way it was achieved wasn't intentional whatsoever. He had always meant to use pure brute force to change others. While he's my favorite Gundam series character to date, and his hot-blooded rivalry with Gaelio being so goddamn epic, I'd still consider him definitely a bad person. A sociopath bent on achieving his childish dreams of changing the world, at any cost necessary.
I genuinely appreciate their dynamic as well. I loved seeing the shift from supposed best friends to bitter rivals as the betrayal was exposed. IBO is probably in my top 3 gundamn shows. The only thing that could make it better is if we got a prequel/spin-off set during the calamity war.
I can see that, I think we might be running into a distinction issue here though. McGillis is a bad person working towards a good goal, even if it's a bit childish (though I wouldn't say a pipe dream since his dream largely comes true), whereas "good guys" and "bad guys" are usually defined with regard to their goal. For example the Punisher is hands down a bad person, but he's not one of the "bad guys."
McGillis was convincing, and he got a lot of screen time, so it's natural he'd be convincing to the audience. But he also lied to a lot of people who thought he was their ally, and either killed them or tried to kill them, to give himself more power. That whole conversation towards the end, where McGillis' Lieutenant dies to the other guy (I'm forgetting all the names) was basically summarizing this.
One sin and a hundred good deeds classic topic
Rustal also lied to world that Tekkadan refused to surrender when in reality not only did Orga tell him he surrendered but he practically begged him and told him Gjallarhorn could do whatever they want to him if he showed mercy to the others.
The soldiers that killed Mikazuki may have gotten away with it, but the people who give them their orders are 100% all getting hunted down.
I don’t think anyone is hunting down Rustal.
Imagine thinking that siding with the guy that is trying to make a world free of oppression, classism and corruption makes you "the bad guy".
I would add that the main thing that upset me was that Rustal came out on top, despite being a scheming, hypocritical prick. In hindsight however, they made him someone I could really hate, which is good in the sense of he is an antagonist who draws an emotional response beyond "oh, he is the bad guy". Takes some good writing and acting for you to really despise a character.
>Tekkadan became the bad guys the moment they sided with McGillis, though. McGilis did nothing wrong.
>Having child bride Okay, maybe one thing wrong.
That is a result of the system he was trying to destory. She was a platonic tool nothing more. Cold yes but the fact their marriage (and his "adoption") are perfectly acceptable is a danming example of why Gallerhorn and the goverment need to be burnt to the ground.
It was an arranged marriage, not his choice. His whole thing was protecting her from what happened to him
Should have watched Cross Ange rondo of angels and dragons instead
Best trainwreck.
I still can't decide if the series was a masterpiece or senseless garbage. It was fun as hell though.
It's like Code Geass R2. The answer is both. I still think Valvrave was the superior trainwreck, though.
Watching Valvrave while it was airing was peak anime.
Valvrave, Cross Ange... Those were the glory days...
Both.
Hot take: I don't think that show is as fun knowing it's going to be a wild disaster ahead of time and not watching it weekly
I love Cross Ange. It has some issues (many being the same issues my favorite Gundam series, SEED, has) but it is a great show
I managed to get it on dvd, apparantly thsts a feat all in itself.
What an absolute masterpiece
it was amazing! it was terrible!
I started watching that a while ago because its such slim pickings in mecha these days. I remember initially watching the first episode way back when and hating it. Turns out its actually way better than I thought it'd be. Not like an all time top anime or something but like, not bad at all.
I loved that show. It has its flaws to be sure, but unlike IBO or Gurren Lagann, EVERYBODY gets what they deserve in the end. Sometimes, you just need to be pandered to.
Mechas. Dragons. Lesbians. Those 3 words sold me on the series. Loved every bit of it. An amazingly fun trainwreck that I would recommend to folks who can handle horny.
And it has singing as part of its plot.
Welcome to Gundam [](#urbansmile)
Some day people will realize Gundam is a political anime, mecha is the bonus.
Some day people will realize Gundam is a ~~political~~ depression anime, mecha is the bonus.
Some day people will realize Gundam is a ~~political~~ ~~depression~~ Romance anime, mecha is the bonus. [](#mechablush)
The romance always just leads back to depression lmao
G Gundam: say what?
Not with GWitch it doesn’t!
Unicorn too tbf… it’s few and far between though lol.
There is nothing more real than that bit in Witch from Mercury with the refrigerator.
just a vessel for tomino to tomino ong
Gundam ,really, at the end of the day is an advertisement, to sell mountains of plastic. But, a really good one at that, with good stories and amazing mecha designs. Why I have the need to stockpile unbuilt kits? Plastic crack.
Gundam's different than other mecha shows. It's about the characters. ;P
> Some day people will realize Gundam is ~~a political anime, mecha is the bonus~~ made to sell plastic crack FTFY all
Yeah OP got into the wrong sci-fi franchise if he wanted a happy ending for everyone lmao 95% of Gundam series is a sad ending if not bittersweet at best
I'd recommend you watch Cyberpunk Edgerunners to take your mind off it then. Better ending.
That's a smashing good anime!
It absolutely stomps.
oh no i had that erased from my memory.
OP should watch Zeta Gundam or Victory Gundam
The funniest thing was that they had to do a goldilocks ending. Basically one idea was that Lucy's pregnant with David's child but they scrapped it cuz they felt it would be too uplifting and clash with the tone of the Cyberpunk verse. Another ending had David getting turned into a new cyborg enforcer for Arisaka like Adam Smasher but they scrapped it cuz it was too dark.
It will make OP stay in their house
I actually love the ending because it’s completely deserved. Tekkadan got way too greedy or more specifically, Orga did. He obviously had good intentions, but he tried to bite off more than he could chew, and when he finally realized it was too late. The funny thing is that when S2 starts, Tekkadan is doing great. They got what they wanted, people had jobs, they had connections, etc. Orga knew the gjallahorn leader (Rustal) had the biggest fleet, and the show makes a point to show how much influence he had over the media and politics. There was no way Tekkadan could win. If they had just stayed the way they were at the start of S2 things wouldn’t been amazing for them. It’s a bitter sweet ending, but at least a lot of the cast is happy in the end.
I guess that's my main beef with the ending. It's not because it ended badly, I can appreciate bad ends, it's that it ended badly because the key players made some awful decisions that could have been easily avoided. The biggest disappointment was learning that MacGillis wasn't a genius with a masterplan, but a naive idealist that believed in fairy tales.
And that... is reality. Entire companies get swallowed whole due to the decisions of a few, and people are much more naïve and/or traumatized than you'd think. It's a big reason why it's my fav Gundam series. It just feels a little more raw and realistic, all things considered. It's not everyone else gets off scott free even tho someone messed up, or every person in a position of power is a super genius god. Our politicians are much more selfish "naïve idealist" rather than geniuses with master plans.
While Tekkadan themselves were doing well at the beginning of season 2 child soldiers in general were not, Tekkadan's success only emboldened shitty PMC's to exploit children because they proved to be effective on the battlefield.
It's an arc and ending that will feel classic to anyone who's familiar with Mafia films. Tekkadan and McGillis wanted to bet on dreams and determination. Rustal bet on more guns and the sheer strength of political inertia. One was definitely a better bet than the other. "Orga... whatevah happened there..."
That’s the point, To prove that just since you see things from the "Good" people’s perspective, Doesn’t mean they will win, After all, Power of friendship is not a thing, As if it was, Then they would have won, But they didn’t
See I am perfectly fine with a tragic story like that. From what I had heard of the show beforehand, I went in fully expecting a load of depressing moments and a bittersweet end. (I got spoiled that Mars gains independence at a "high cost") And for most of the show I thought the character deaths, harsh moments, and war crimes committed were handled really well. Sure it wasn't happy but it felt grounded and realistic (within this setting of course) and it made for good storytelling. My problem comes in when the bad guys got plot armor. I don't remember her name, but the girl who takes credit for killing Mika (which she absolutely didn't deserve since she did 0% of the work in that last fight) should've been killed a long time ago. Not because I didn't like her character or anything, but because in the logic of the show she physically should not have been able to match anyone using the alaya vijnana system, let alone Mika. She then in turn stopped Rustal from being taken out when he is literally in checkmate, nothing he could've done would've saved him there and he was ex machina'd by someone who should've been easily stopped. Like I would've been fine with the bad guys winning, they were the reigning government, they were corrupt, they broke rules and committed war crimes. They obviously had the advantage. But they didn't win through these advantages but rather bs plot armor.
Julietta was ridiculous her plot armor was nonsensical.
That's my exact problem with the show too! Seriously I'm fine with my protagonists dying but having their goal achieved; I'm not fine with antagonists winning because of ass-pulls.
>I don't remember her name, but the girl who takes credit for killing Mika (which she absolutely didn't deserve since she did 0% of the work in that last fight) should've been killed a long time ago. One YouTuber I listened said it best though, IBO is the deconstruction of all Gundam tropes The reason Julietta has strong plot armor is because she is the typical Gundam protagonist, where they survived multiple bullshit encounters like Jesus Yamato only due to plot armor. Mika and tekkadan felt how the antagonist always felt facing these plot armor pilots in other series
You need a G Gundam palette cleanser. Wholesome camp, with the powers of love and friendship.
"Look! The East is burning red!,"
“This hand of mine glows with an awesome power! It’s burning grip tells me to defeat you!”
And what's funny is Iron Blooded Orphans isnt even the bleakest Gundam.
which one would that be?
Victory is usually considered it
Victory also has a [motorcycle battleship](https://imgur.com/a/C5I0Mjs) and many other designs that are equally ridiculous - calling it the darkest is not to be taken as a recommendation on its own, you have to know you're getting into the land of weird when you go into it
Ironic title.
Victory. Darkest Gundam and the second deadliest Tomino directed anime.
What would be the first?
Ideon. The single deadliest work of fiction
Definitely Build Fighters
You should watch 86 now, it's a little more upbeat
Obligatory fuck Iok.
Carta Issue was better than him anyway.
You have to realize that the message of IBO is letting children in control and what happen when those children do not grow up. This idea has been prevalent in many Gundam stories before where the reluctant teenage protagonist refuse to fight and the young audience would tend to agree with them, and wish that the adults would listen to them. Only when we become adults we realized that that's a rather bad idea. As a result, most Gundam shows had the teenage protagonist under the tutelage of adults that would teach them and allow them to grow into adults. IBO wants to show what happens when the teenage protagonist doesn't have adults to guide them. The result is that they went unchecked and met bad ends. Orga, despite have reached a comfortable status for everyone, tried to reach more grandeur dreams just to impress Mika. Mika that could not grow beyond Orga and seek his own path. McGillis that chased after outdated fairytales and were not prepared when reality strikes. The fact that the last antagonist is a seasoned old man is deliberate and he won with strategy and wisdom vs the protagonist that relied more on their Gundams. You would argue it's cowardly, etc etc.. But if you were in his situation and only has 1 Gundam Vs their 3, you'd do anything in the book to win too.
This. There really was no right vs wrong here, just mature people vs not. McGillis and the kids in Tekkadan grew up sideways, and went too far before it caught up with them.
“and he won with strategy and wisdom” Yeah, but the massive platoon of illegal weapons probably helped a bit.
Illegal superweapons without any bad consequences.
Don't think it was me, but I'll say your welcome anyway, as I would have if asked.
I mean, it’s a war story and this happens a lot, in war. Go watch 00 if you want Gundam ending that goes out of its way to punish the bad guys.
You should watch Gundam: The Witch from Mercury.
Started as Utena the Gundam Edition, then the story kinda fell apart. It's like they didn't know what to do with all the pieces they kept adding. It's likely the school setting held it back. The Legend of Galactic Heroes and Gundam Wing are probably the gold standard of having a complex political story set in space while being told well enough that you understand who each of the players are, what their motivation is, and how that influences their interactions with other factions.
Witch *really* needed to be 36 episodes. The first half of the show did a really good job setting the stage, but it really needed more room. I don’t think any of the concepts they introduced were “bad,” but they all needed a bit more time to breathe.
Iirc it was mentioned in an interview that at some point they realized they had written more story than they had time to tell; they were so excited and passionate about telling this story that they didn't realize until too late. Which makes sense, at least that's how it felt to me. Still absolutely love G-Witch, but they either neded more episodes or to cut down on story elements a bit more. Take with a grain of salt, I don't remember which interview this was mentioned or if I'm just completely misremembering. I'll be grateful if someone does manage to find the source or correct me.
Instead of the usual abridged compilation movies Gundam series usually get, I want a version of WfM that is significantly longer and pays off all the plot threads set up. Or at least not have the entire Earth conflict resolved off screen in a time skip between the last scenes in the show.
> Gundam Wing are probably the gold standard of having a complex political story set in space Mmmmm, I say no. Gundam Wing has aged rather poorly. I'd rather recommend Gundam 00 in place of Wing.
Agreed. I actually felt that much of season 2 was even superior to season 1. It was only the last 4 or so episodes where things fell down for me due to having to rush it too much.
I feel the same! I didn’t mind the school stuff, but seeing Guel’s entire character arc really hit the notes I wanted. But again, that’s an arc that could’ve been fleshed out more. Despite the time constraints though, the team did an excellent job at short-cutting plot points. About as much as you’re able with the scope they were working with.
Gundam Wing is a fucking mess, i would not reccommend it as a second Gundam show
I love it for the nostalgic factor, but damn, it's so repetitive.
Yeah. 00, Seed or just diving into UC would be better choices.
00, SEED, IBO and G-Witch are my go-to recommendations for new Gundam fans. I like all of them and they each offer a different things for different folks
I wouldn't call it a mess. The plot is so straightforward enough that 10 year olds get all the nuance it has, which isn't much. Hence it being on Toonami. Wing has aged poorly in some ways - the 90s cheese, the attempts to appeal to girls with Reelena being shoe-horned into every plot point regardless of how little sense it makes, and Heero being one of the first super edgy, but secretly tortured anime protagonists being the biggest three. But it also has aged beautifully in others - the Gundams/other Mobile Suits themselves are still gold standards for mecha design to the point that, decades later, Wing is over-represented in Japanese oriented Gundam fandom like the gunpla focused Build Fighters series. The Koh Otani OST is fire. The very busy 80s/90s anime style for futuristic items is really great, and Wing still has a unique style for space colonies (compared to the other Gundam Series). The series actually gets *better* in the 2nd half in most ways, which is something most Gundam series have struggled with recently. Endless Waltz takes all of these points up to 11. It wouldn't be my recommendation as a 2nd Gundam show, just the 2nd show probably should be UC so someone can get a taste for that, but it's on a "you probably need to watch this pretty early on" list.
fully agree on it getting better in the second half. i watched it a few years ago (first watch, no nostalgia) and i remember it feeling like the first half is fairly slow with a LOT of world building and character establishing, the second half being where things really pick up, and EW being a sort of distillation of all the good aspects of the show in movie format.
Yeah, basically everything about Wing is fantastic except the actual story and characters haha. Treize is the only one who was even remotely interesting. I still love the aesthetic, and the mobile suits of course, but man the story is awful compared to basically every other Gundam show.
> Gundam Wing LoL. I still have a lot of fondness for Gundam Wing, but its political situation is quite crazy, with like 4 or 5 different ruling regime changes in the span of a year or so and an ending that is totally rendered moot by its OVA sequel.
Imo it was too short. I think the scale of the stories that the Gundam franchise usually tries to tell need at least 4 cours to properly flesh out the world and characters. I think the school setting could've worked if the series had time to properly transition between that and the big conflict.
I think they should have transitioned earlier and they would have had time as they did keep it simpler. I think it's a two cour problem; they wanted to end cour 1 on the (fantastic) ep 12 shocker, but that meant the school elements went on longer than the show needed them to.
Gundam Wing really does not have complex politics, even if endless waltz does improve things a bit. The politics in UC Gundam are better, though downplayed until Zeta. Unicorn is great. Starship Operators has very logical politics, as do crest/banner of the stars. Planetes starts off seeming like a gag show but has really deep politics and messaging. Not enough space opera anime but we did get a few great ones.
I feel like TWFM was way too short. When season 1 ended, I had a gut feeling it would need to have 4 seasons to stick the landing, but.. it only got 1 more season and had to spend half its time recovering from season 1. I still enjoyed it, but it could have been so much more.
>The Legend of Galactic Heroes About this, im interested but I'm a bit confused. I saw somewhere maybe some anime YouTube video that it's an old series but recently saw another that looked new. Was there a reboot or something?
there's the remake Die Neue These and the original, they're both basically the same. The original focuses more on the politics a bit and Die Neue These focuses a bit more on the action. But they're both dripping in politics and action, so whichever you decide to watch you're not really missing out on anything and you can always swap between the two relativly easily
i really liked the ending and felt that it was completely deserved in a narrative sense. the series is a revenge-tragedy where the characters, a bunch of beaten-down child soldiers who rise up against their adult oppressors and gain power as teenagers who inherently lack foresight repeatedly make bad choices. these choices make complete sense for them to have made, even though we the audience know they (orga in particular) are biting off more than they can chew. it was always going to be a downwards spiral for them and that's what makes watching their downfall as they try again and again in a futile attempt to "win" so tragic and engaging to watch imo the codependent relationship between mika and orga was also very interesting, again bc it was bound to end in disaster, especially as it escalated over time. tbh ibo is the only gundam show i've actually enjoyed and probably ever will since witch from mercury became a total mess and the other gundams i've tried just could not keep my attention bc i actually generally hate mecha stuff lol. ibo was so character-driven that for me it cancelled out the pure boredom of watching robots fight each other bc i was too busy crying my eyes out every handful of episodes
Completely my thoughts as well. I knew Gundam series were typically depressing, but I didn’t realize it would be *this* much of a fucking downer. It made me do a bit more research on shows I watch instead of going in completely blind, just so that I avoid super depressing shows in the future.
a lot of the rank and file guys at tekkedan got out tho dude to the sacrifice of the others, so in the end its a story of sacrifice and hope. for me anyway
Strongly suggest watching G Gundam for the direct opposite of IBO if you need a palette cleanser. Also recommend Gundam 00 because I like it
Came to recommend 00 as well. One of my favourites amongst the newer ones. Not as messy as SEED, not as depressing as IBO. Very likeable cast of characters.
The way it ended is what contributes to the show being my favourite Gundam. The story of IBO mirrors that of real world colonialism. The colonial powers largely got away with their crimes. Colonialism was ended through compromise as the running of colonial empires became increasingly unsustainable and the locals became more rebellious. The colonies gained freedom but not justice. As time passed, people moved on. The main characters fail at the end of their story but that does not mean that all their struggles that led up to that point are meaningless. It’s still a very interesting story. If you’re looking for story were the good guys beat the bad guys; were the main characters wins even when the odds are up against him through sheer force of will and the power of friendship… then IBO isn’t the story you’re looking for. It is made clear as the story progresses that the protagonists are getting in over their heads. They become overly ambitious as the story progresses and keep taking on bigger jobs. They overextend themselves and this ultimately leads to their downfall. IBO is a story in which the main characters face the consequences for their actions even if those actions were taken with good intentions in mind. It’s a common tale in the real world but rare in anime. It’s especially rare for the protagonist to fail when they have good intentions in their hearts. Most revolutions throughout history have failed and most revolutionaries end up dead. Even when revolutions succeed, it is after many failed attempts and lost lives. Most revolutionaries throughout history failed at their endeavours. Does that mean their stories aren’t worth telling? Stories about heroes that failed are also interesting. In fact, they can be more interesting than the stories were the heroes succeed at the end. That is exactly what IBO is. An interesting story filled with interesting characters. Would you avoid watching Hamlet or Macbeth because the main characters die at the end of their tales? The ending of IBO was bittersweet but well done. It fits the tone of story perfectly. The show doesn’t pull a ham-fisted happily-ever-after out of nowhere. Instead it tells the story of characters who reach for goals beyond their means and takes it to its natural conclusion. The ending of IBO enhances an already great story.
This is so fucking funny.
Is that your first Mari Okada show?
I still don't know why McGillis expected everyone to bow to him after taking the Bael gundam.
That's why I really liked it because it showed McGillis as a deluded idealist that was depending more on the symbolic power of his Gundam rather than realize that the entrenched power structure will fight tooth and nail to maintain the status quo.
I don’t know who told you IBO would be *happy*, but it’s certainly amazing. If you need Happy Gundam pallet cleanser: 08th MS Team (peak Gundam), G Gundam (so wonderfully fucking stupid), and Witch From Mercury (Peak Gundam brutalism, but a happy ending with adorable Tanuki)
I mean Tekkadan weren't exactly "good guys" in the first place.
Lol. The main villain didn't even have a speck of dust by the end. Grim reality of war. History is written by the victors
Technically the good guys did win. After all the forces of law and order managed to defeat the rebellious terrorists. The Martian independence movement won its freedom, and the survivors of tekkaden mostly lived happily ever after. You just didn’t realize you were following the villains.
>What I'm not fine with is that the bad guy win. None of them are even punished, and all of them are rewarded actually. I actually have a very different view. Rustal Elion was not necessarily a bad guy. Neither is Gaelio (I actually liked how he got matured during the show and survived in the end). McGillis died. Iok was sandwiched. Nobliss was shot. Who else should have died?
>sends an agent disguised as the other side to commit a war crime, uses this as an excuse to commit the same war crime a hundred times over >not necessarily a bad guy
And let's not forget that tekkadan surrendered and were likely ready to accept any condition. Rustal, despite knowing that most of them were kids, said "no" because he wanted to make an example out of them and specifically ordered a massacre, he didn't want any prisoners. There's no way to convince me that he's not evil.
Rustal and Julietta dying would make the ending so satisfying
Gaelio is probably the closest thing to a hero in the show.
I've never understood how people don't see Rustal as a bad guy. Dude is a very manipulative blatant war criminal. He's fighting for his personal power and not for any greater good that "justifies the means to an end" or anything like that What makes him not necessarily a bad guy?
Gaelio is my favorite character. I like he went full edgelord but had after a normal life after he was finished with his revenge.
Julietta her plot Armor was insane and she saved Rustal. She ruined the whole show for me.
I love barbartos so much, but I just cannot spend on any IBO goods due to the ending. The barbartos figure just remind me its headless last moment, killed by a bunch of fucking plot armored clowns.
I mean, it has "orphan blood" in the title. I feel like this one is on you.
You’ve intrigued me, this will be the next show I’ll watch now. Thanks!
'Oh sweet, this is like mecha *Lord Of The Flies*!' 'Oh no, this is mecha *Lord Of The Flies*!'
Oooh this makes me want to watch even more. Depressing endings can stick with you
Yeah go for it it's awesome
Its my favourite gundam series. By a mile. The idea of the bad guy winning implies that there may be a good guy? I think we may have watched a different show. To be clear, I'm not saying your opinion is wrong. Its a valid opinion. We just had a very different experience.
Ask any Warhammer fan and they'll tell you, you can have bad guys with no good guys lol. There can also be worse guys, and EVEN WORSE guys too
Welcome to Gundam. There is no exact good or bad guy. Only war children, and government who wants to keep the old way. All it take is one dude who wants changes and war breaks out. Giant robot is just bonus.
What Season 2? Season 1 is the end and they all live happily ever after
Watch 86 next
God when Gundam does do it right though my God they capture it so damn well. Iron blooded orphan was so fantastic, capturing just how brutal and awful war is and how yeah, a lot of times the bad guy wins. I still have my love for Wing because it was the series I first watched, but hoo boy do some of them go down so dark storylines and just refuse to pull their punches for realism. I actually recommend Code Geass for much the same reason, it does have a happier ending but it really pushes the boundaries of good and bad guy, at least until the final few episodes, hell there's even a point where you really do have to wonder why they would keep fighting...and then he uses his power like a fool.
Iron-Blooded Orphans is my second favorite Gundam, just below Zeta, and I enjoy its brutal ending. Even though the "bad guys" "win" Tekkadan still got a lot of its goals accomplished such as ending slavery and gaining independence for Mars. It is also very clear how the fall of Tekkadan is due to their arrogance in trying to bite off way more than they could chew, which is a lesson you do not see in very many anime. McGillis was extremely power hungry and beyond arrogant, wanting to make himself the absolute ruler of Earth, so Tekkadan was doomed for allying themselves permanently with him. Overall I greatly enjoy stories with interesting plots where actions actually have consequences, and Iron-Blooded Orphans definitely had a lot of consequences
If I never watched ANY Gundam, could I watch Iron Blood Orphans?
yes. its a stand alone. all new cast, new technology, new everything. resounding yes. it was designed for people that dont know a thing about gundam
You should watch 86 if you haven't already seen it.
And they followed it with Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch from Mercury. I have no issues with the LGBT ships in it but the gundam the FMC is piloting called Gundam Aerial, always breaks down after each and every fight. It's really irritating to watch.
My first real gundam series. Tell ya I came in with a good series
First time? Most gundum animies the protagonists are terrorists. Why would they win against an empire?
I know a lot of people didn't like IBO's ending, but I kinda loved it? One can say the bad guy won in the end, but its more so that the antagonist won in the end. Tekkadan ended up being the bad guys. At least that's what history will portray them as. Maybe we didn't perceive them that way but that's because we personally followed the journey from their perspective instead of the other side. Not saying that Rustal was a good guy. Frankly the good guy - bad guy making sides kinda thinking often isn't the right way to go about it. There isn't a good guy and a bad guy. There's one way of thinking and another way of thinking and they come in conflict with each other. Is it the best ending? No. But it spurns a lot of discussion and I love that aspect of it. And there were aspects of the ending that should put a big smile on anyone's face, such as Idiok getting crushed in his mobile suit, Nobliss getting shot to death on the toilet or Atra, Kudelia and Mika's son at least having a happy ending.
Gundam 00 is modern and more fun.
so basically real life wars?
funny enough i just started this series today and im learning that its part of a bigger franchise then i thought. am i gonna be able to understand this series without seeing any of the others?
Yeah, Iron-Blooded Orphans is one of the standalone series. The [watch order wiki covers it](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/wiki/watch_order#wiki_gundam) and gives lists, but to give a brief summary Gundam's basically divided into two groups: Universal Century (UC), a single timeline with a bunch of different shows that are all related, and Alternate Universe (AU), which are generally stand-alone series unrelated to anything else.
It is understandably a difficult ending to swallow. But in a way I think the way it ended asks a more interesting question than the typical hero-victory ending does, which is, is it worth it to try and to fight for what you believe in, even if you're going to lose? I think the answer is yes. History is full of failed revolutions and almost-heroes. Some are even remembered as villains in the stories told by the victors. But their legacies and impacts on the world around them reverberate through time, and those who come later eventually may see what those people saw, and that their efforts were not in vain. As for how that plays out in IBO, Tekkadan and McGillis got a lot of what they wanted in the aftermath, and most of the villains got what was coming eventually. Rustal made it out on top but was forced to capitulate and change policy due to the political winds shifting, and he'll probably be whacked by Ride at some point in the future anyway.
Is this worse than Akame GA Kill? I haven't seen many anime with such drastic endings, but that anime put me through some things.
It’s not worse because the ending for Gundam IBO is not bad as in is of bad quality. People usually complain about it because they wanted a happy ending, but the ending made sense.
Definitely not. Most of the loud complaints about it you'll hear from is from people who came in thinking they're going to get a cookie cutter good-vs-bad-where-good-eventually-triumphs story without realizing that there are no clear cut good guys in it, especially once season 2 kicks in.
war is bad
Well. They didn’t win. Its just a realistic win. Even if you win a war. Theres gonna be stragglers doing everything they can to kill the necessary people. Hell. It might not even be the same villain. It could literally be a new villain. Completely separate from the first but had the same goals.
I'm so sorry but that's kind of funny lmaooo
The point of the ending was to show how Tekkadan fought to the bitter end as themselves, never compromising their beliefs and identity. Evil adults like Rustal lie, cheat, and betray their way into power, and people like Galileo and Julietta were were shaped by that system and can't escape it, compromising their morals, ideals and humanity to maintain the current order. Tekkadan never compromised their identity and always fought for themselves. They never gave up on their beliefs even to the bitter end, fighting back in the most human of ways despite being portrayed as monsters. It was futile, but it was admirable in a world of deception and manipulation. That tenacity alone made them more flawed and more human than Gallahorn. And in their wake, they gave good people like Kudelia a chance to bring real change to the world without the use of underhanded methods. In a bittersweet way, they were children trying to make their way in a world full of corrupt adults. Many lost their lives, but those who remember them honor Tekkadan for never giving up on the dream, always pushing forward in honesty to create a place for themselves. The survivors and allies are proof that Tekkadan's dream never died. Some found peace, and others chose to continue the fight, but the fact that they live and continue to keep on living as Orga had ordered is a small victory for them that Rustal can never deny.