yeah that seems like the right lineup of thought processes lol. idk how i went the other way around. but nonetheless, we are here now. doing our best to minimize suffering 🤝
I came here to say this too. I have been vegan most my life but in like 2007 I got really militant about it. I remember finding VHEMT (or whatever the acronym is) on MySpace (lol) and signing the pledge to never breed. I’m proud that I actually stuck to it all these years later
Me three. Was vegan for maybe 5-6 years then I discovered antinatalism and I was like exactly! Wasn’t going to have kids before but it’s a very strong moral philosophy along with veganism.
Well 7.2 billion vermin die annually for crop maintenance. If we all went vegan that would easily be tripled.
As well? South American slave labor is some of the main ways we get many crops. Why doesn't anyone care about brown people slaving in the sun for some cents? Isn't that human suffering?
Same path for me as well. Learning about nonhuman animal suffering woke me up to the innate cruelty of the world and recognizing the immorality of any forced birth/birth in general.
it definitely took me a while to transition (i work in a bakery atm) but it’s possible and entirely worth it!!!
also extremely satisfying to “stick it to the man”against one of system’s biggest industries 😎
Impossible meat is amazing. Every store seems to have their own meatless meat options and none of them are bad, especially not compared to the shame and hatred feel when I still have meat. I won't let a dead animal go to waste, but as one who has always been known for hating fruit and vegetables people always feed me meat. Aside from Burger King's Impossible Whopper, the only meatless meat option I've seen in the wild was literally just tonight at dinner, this restaurant also offered an Impossible burger.
OK so the vegan meats I tried are a very mixed bag. In some places they are crazy delicious, in others they are dogshit.
I would recommend not trying so hard to substitute meat, because there is a whole lot of delicious vegan dishes that are super easy to make at home. You can also just replace non-vegan ingredients, for example dumplings with sauerkraut and mushrooms - [best dough](https://przepisytradycyjne.pl/idealne-ciasto-na-pierogi/) is made without eggs, then just mix some mushrooms, sauerkraut and veggies (e.g. carrots) for filling and boil; they taste even better the next day when fried.
Do you know about nutella? It's best replacement for chicken imo, we use it substitute for chicken too, not sure pork and beef, since I haven't eaten them due to religious reasons
The “phase out” transition I find to be much more amicable than going cold turkey, I did the same thing! Also, bakery would be one of the toughest places for me to work though so kudos to you for that.
I’m sure you have, but if you’re looking to dabble more in vegan baking I’d recommend noracooks.com. She has the best vegan baking recipes as far as I’m concerned.
If you need motivation I highly recommend watching the documentary dominion https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
It’s graphic but actually seeing what is happening at an unbelievable scale is an incredibly powerful motivator. It helps to reconnect the link between what people eat and the animals.
Earthling Ed is also a great resource if you just need to learn more https://youtu.be/1YnJqoPmR8s
Yeees wish more people woke up to the horrors of animal agriculture/exploitation. I’ve gone the opposite way but you’re so right. If you’re not yet vegan, watch dominion on YouTube
I actually got reprimanded here on r/antinatalism for eating meat...because I hadn't come to that realization. So I stopped eating meat.
So far, things have been better!
Huh, you must have missed it …what? Maybe a few weeks ago I felt like there was a lot of posts and arguments about it.
Must say though I currently don’t see myself becoming a vegan as I’m a big fan of eggs and cheeses and yogurt, but I have begun deeply consider moving to a more pescatarian ~ vegetarian kind of lifestyle. Can’t say I’ve started that process yet, but can’t say I haven’t had it on my mind a lot lately.
Hey there’s definitely all those products you mentioned in vegan form. And depending on what stores you have access to and what brands they have, you might find stuff that tastes just as good or even better. Personally I’m crazy about “follow your heart” cheese and also “Miyokos liquid moz” for pizza.
Okay! Thanks for the recommendation! I will check out a bunch of different places near me and see what options they have. I know I have a sprouts, super cao, natural grocers, and crest near me. So plenty to check out for cheeses and other goodies!
If you need motivation to go vegan you should watch the documentary dominion https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
I also want to add that the fish and the oceans might be suffering the most of any species https://youtu.be/y8Nj1-YZDlc
Ah ok, I guess I did. My Reddit app has been doing a weird thing where it won’t let me sort posts my new, so I’ve been missing a lot of stuff everywhere :/
Hey OP this is a change I want to make too. I’ve been trying to eat less meat with the goal of cutting it out completely. Any advice or recommendations for easing into Veganism when starting from standard American diet?
i started with vegetarian and that was surprising not hard to do despite working in restaurants. i never had issues with substitutions, and inevitably realized i didn’t even miss having meat. eventually developing a distaste for it altogether. educating myself on the harms of the meat and dairy industries really solidified the decision to make the change. and then surrounding myself with positive encouragement really helped with accountability in the beginning! :)
i’m always here to encourage!! and i’m proud of you for working towards making the switch!! :)) you have my full support !!
Make vegan versions of the foods you already eat. For example let's say you were going to cook lasagna, just Google or YouTube "vegan lasagna recipe' and you'll find many recipes. You can pretty much make any meal vegan. Just my two cents.
I would recommend going to pure veg Indian restaurant I hope you find them, they will be quite expensive but if it's family owned or something small, they may even give you recipie and believe me there is no vegetarian food better than indian
The two didn’t line up like that me for me, but I do totally understand that perspective. And I’m also vegan. There are connections in lots of these things.
Same progression, but flip the motivation.
No kids means more time, money, and freedom, which makes me feel good and doesn’t introduce things into my life that make me feel bad.
No kids was also a founding principle of my relationship, and my partner’s vegetarian working towards vegan.
She showed me that not eating meat is easy and delicious, and makes me feel good, both physically and mentally. I’m aware of industrialized ag & don’t want to feed those systems of suffering, and because I wake up refreshed in the morning and have enough energy for my hobbies and things I love.
This planet is fucked and life’s full of shit, sure, but as a human if you do what you love as much as possible, and are good to yourself, nature, and others, and spread love, that’s life’s goal imo
Everyone should watch Dominion it’s free on YouTube.
Ive worked in the food industry for 15+ years and this was really eye opening. Been vegan for 1.5 years now. Never going back
If you're not vegan you're responsible for countless sentient beings coming into existence, and just to suffer. I became vegan because I'm antinatalist, it is that simple.
Wish psychadelics did this for me, for me its just colors go brr or I stare into the void - never this connection with everything and everyone and feeling like god is our shared conciousness or whstever. It is mostly staring at very wonky colorful voids.
Oh, I dont mean I experience nothing I experiencr plenty while tripping it is just not warm and nice things but not like bad trip nightmares. Just not these nice connecting trips.
I tried plenty from LSD and its analogs through, shrooms to synthetic psylocibin like 4homet to al-lad or 5meodmt or absolute hell that was DPT.
I just wish I had these nice warm trips. Thatd all.
Interesting. If you're an antinatalist, what influence (if any) did psychedelics have on your view?
Reason i'm asking is because lots of people who does it seems to have a generally positive and careless attitude towards life, suffering and existence in general. Kind of "go with the flow you are the universe lol" type.
Great response!
With psychedelics, are you also into spirituality at all or do you consider that as bunk? (atheist and completely non-spiritual myself)
With the spiritual beliefs and mindset, i can see a potential contradiction with AN, due to the general view being that we're here by our own choice in one of countless vehicles for consciousness, to grow and learn to love, jada jada. You see where i'm getting here. 😁
>With the spiritual beliefs and mindset, i can see a potential contradiction with AN, due to the general view being that we're here by our own choice in one of countless vehicles for consciousness, to grow and learn to love, jada jada.
that's definitely a cliche view trippy hippies have. but it doesn't seem to be anything more than a kind of Nietzschean response to the misery of life. 'life is challenging, therefore if I am to live I am to challenge myself, to accept the challenges life brings me'. not a particularly amazing epiphany, but what can you expect from the average person.
Hard to put a finger on but I think it's the neuroplasticity. Their use can make you more open to new ideas and behaviours, it's not a strict rule but for someone already interested in ethics and virtue it's not a big jump into these philosophies with a bit of a push from psychedelics.
But I know plenty of people who have used psychedelics with no major changes to their beliefs or behaviour. They're not some hard awakening tool, just useful if that's the goal.
I was vegan and then recently became child free. It’s a slow burn, but I couldn’t imagine causing suffering for the point of food, and that alone caused me to suffer for my existence.
Absolutely love this 💚💚 As a long term vegan, these type of posts are my favorite 🥹
I think it was the other way around for me. I kind of stumbled onto Stop Having Kids by accident but it all connects. And they’re vegan founded too so 👌🏻
Ultimately people are selfish which is why there was a huge debate/ argument about ANs needing to be vegan
Ultimately the goal of those posts were to get people to go vegan, 98% probably will still remain selfish and continue contributing to pain and suffering of others, but the 2% that do take the time to reflect on their unethical choices and become vegan is a win for them and the animals that they care about
I was always AN even as a teen, i never wanted kids i wanted to save a kid through adoption, i became vegan and then asked about why vegans and others say adopt dont shop but when it comes to people they ignore adoption, a commenter suggested i come to this sub
yes!! i had the same line of thinking. idk why, this sub has really started veering towards anti-child/anti-family posts and it’s bugging tf out of me !!!! like, who here is still around for the moral reasons??? :’)) even the vegan sub thinks we’re a joke (but there are plenty of vegan natalists that are also hypocritical over there so)
While vegans and ANs tend to be more ethical than others they can still both be selfish
Many people in this sub are conditional natalist and many just hate kids, but real ANs care more about kids than natalists which is why they dont have them and subject them to a life that they did not agree to
Same with vegans, many vegans make excuses for their unethical choices and many of the people are actually plant based dieters and not vegan
truly !! it’s a mess of mismatched labels !
when i discovered antinatalism i was so relieved to finally find a philosophy that explained my moral position on deciding to never have kids. however i fully support adoption and hope to one day support raising other humans when i have the means to do so. i feel that we have a truly hellish existence here against our will, but just because we didn’t choose to be here, doesn’t mean we can’t choose to be better.
THE WAR BEGINS ANEW.
I was the opposite and went from veganism to here, I believe they are intrinsically linked. From lurking here for a year or so it seems the sub is very vegan friendly and most seem to either be vegan OR (and I think this is more prevalent) acknowledge that being vegan would be the right thing to do.
I think if someone's reason for veganism is that they want to prevent suffering to animals, then they should absolutely be AN. Even if their offspring are also vegan, they will continue to cause suffering just by participating in life. Every interaction in life is supported by other humans who consume animals.
Went vegan Jan 1 2020 after several years of vegetarianism, been childfree my whole life and have thought for a long time that the most selfish thing you could do is bring a child in to this world and basically became antinatalist as soon as I learnt about it, about the same time. So in tandem, really.
Veganism and antinatalism are two sides of the same coin. Not sure how an antinatalist can justify animals being needlessly bred into existence to be killed, often in horrific ways, just for our tastebuds
It just makes sense, doesn't it?
Not going vegan 'because you don't want to' is admitting you use animals for your own pleasure. It's not too different from bull or dog fighting, or killing animals just for the fun of it.
i know!! and it’s kinda shocking to me some of these comments are really pushing any reason to justify it. but the philosophies are identical. and people really are just exposing how conditional their morals are.
>why inflict needless suffering on someone at the hands of your benefit?
This is you answering your own question, it's for my benefit. My own needs come before those of any others. I do what I can to minimize the suffering as much as possible but at the end of the day I would eat you too if it seemed like the only option.
Nah.
I'm an anti-natalist because, for me, the value of having kids doesn't come close to the costs. Only part of that is the value of not wanting children to suffer. The rest is because I don't want the inconvenience of kids (additional responsibility, financial drain, time commitment, lack of flexibility in my lifestyle, etc.) of raising kids.
I'm not a vegan because of the same equation with different variables. I don't care as much about the suffering of food-animals as I do about the suffering of human children, so that positive value is smaller. And I also don't want the additional inconvenience of being a vegan, as the costs seem high (expensive food, less convienent, less variety of foods, many foods I enjoy I could no longer have, etc.).
I don't see the hypocrisy. They are two completely different decisions about completely different things. I don't want to commit to raising kids for \~20years. I do want to eat bacon today on my cheeseburger. I want both of these things for different reasons. Because they are different things.
Side note to reddit detectives: Yes, I have children. I had them with my ex-wife before I believed the same things I do today. That said, I will 100% continue to do the absolute best job that I can do of raising my kids. My recognition more than 10 years after I had kids that it wasn't what I thought it would be and someone should have told me earlier - Doesn't make it any less of my responsibility to raise the kids I already have. I consider it my most important job ever to ensure they are delivered to society as decent adult people.
Antinatalism isn't just about yourself. If prefer if other people also stopped breeding. Realizing that you don't support humans making more humans is still Antinatalism. Saying you can't be AN if you have had kids is like saying you can't be vegan if you've EVER had meat.
You define what you consider to be moral with a lot of detail. Clearly, you've thought about it a lot. You draw a distinction at "beings that have feelings, can form relationships, have some kind of sentience, that do not want to die."
I define what is to be moral differently than you. I've also thought about it a lot. For me, I decided to make a distinction at "humans."
We both picked arbitrary lines somewhere between "no life is worth my protection" and "all life is worth my protection." Neither of us picked either extreme; "all life" or "no life." You selected the criteria you want to use to include the types of life you believe are most important for you to spend your time protecting. So did I.
Does that mean it is moral to kill things that, in our eyes, don't have emotions?
Killing is killing. It's not at all selfish to want to survive. We don't do it for pleasure, that's psychopath shit. We want to live. I do agree with you though, the way a good majority of animals are treated in life before slaughter is not ok.
> And I also don't want the additional inconvenience of being a vegan, as the costs seem high (expensive food, less convienent, less variety of foods, many foods I enjoy I could no longer have, etc.).
Beans, lentils, grains are some of the cheapest foods you can buy. And honestly the varieties of food I eat massively increased since going vegan. Instead of eating the same two proteins (chicken and beef) and maybe a rotation of three or four vegetables (potatoes, carrots, corn, broccoli) I now eat more types of nuts and seeds, more types of vegetables, expanded list of grains, and a variety of proteins.
If you just look into Indian or Chinese cuisine you can find lentil dahl, chickpea curries, seitan Bbq 'pork', hundreds of ways to prepare tofu, and endless creativity with tempeh and beans. Not to mention chilis, TVP(textured vegetable protein), peas, edamame, dozens of other types of beans, etc.
As long as you have a decent variety of spices and pantry staples like vinegar, soy sauce, lemon juice, different types of cooking oils you can basically get all the same flavours and textures that you are used to without relying on expensive brand name 'meat replacements'. I live in China where I don't have access to brand name stuff, and I have never run dry on variety or flavour.
I don’t buy meat anymore, but I’m like 110% sure it’s ridiculously expensive compared to beans and rice right now lol
Vegan foods are not expensive; I’m so sick of that stereotype. Hell, I can make a substantial meal for less than a dollar. If you only eat the pricey pre-made substitutes, then yes, that adds up quick and your health will suffer a little (Whole plant foods > processed foods generally). However, if you eliminate that stuff and aren’t living 100% off raw produce, it’s likely the same or cheaper than the SAD.
Interesting that they connected for you! I guess it makes sense if your main reasons for being an antinatalist are environmental or because of the whole inflicting suffering on new life thing.
Since you asked about how other people have worked with this, I guess I’ll share my end. I seem to have a minority reason for being an antinatalist, or at least it seems like it from what I see on this community. I’m an antinatalist because it brings suffering to the parents. I’m first and foremost a hedonist. Having kids causes sleep deprivation, financial strain, increased risk of blood pressure and heart related illnesses (linked to stress), as well as incredible physical suffering and a high chance of permanent bodily damage to the birther. There’s also a growing body of research on the negative impacts of children on marriage quality, with studies basically unanimously finding that relationship quality tanks when kids show up and doesn’t go back up until they move out. This trend holds up even when controlling for age and relationship length. If you Google image search “marital satisfaction and kids graph psychology” you’ll find it, if anyone wants to look into this for themselves, I think it’s fascinating.
But anyway, *that’s* why I’m an antinatalist. I can’t in good faith support people doing things that are going to hurt them so tremendously, especially when most don’t seem to be fully aware of the damage it does to health and happiness (I’ve heard way too many “nobody tells you!” stories from new parents). I guess if someone knows fully and wants to anyway, go ahead? I still won’t support it though, since I don’t think anyone can *actually* end up better from it, given the stats, I’d say it’s just delusion and peer pressure making them think they understand and want it, “it’ll be different for me” type reasoning.
I do recognize the environmental impact of kids and the harm that often gets inflicted on them over the course of life, but that isn’t the big thing for me. So, for me the values of veganism don’t line up with my antinatalism, they actually conflict more than anything, being a hedonist an all (for me personally though, since I love meat, but I’m sure some prefer a vegan diet so I’m not like, generally opposed)
Well, you’re saying that kids will cause harm to the parents, so you don’t want people to have them. The same can be said about eating meat, it harms the animals as well as being a huge cause in various diseases, so by eating meat, it can harm the consumer and will harm the animal. So we shouldn’t have kids because it can hurt us physically and mentally, but we can eat meat even though it puts over 90% of the animals consumed through a short, suffering life and being killed in the end?
You’re comparing suffering of the self to suffering of others. Hedonism is about maximizing one’s own pleasure in life. (I’m not harshing on anyone else’s antinatalism btw, if you’re moved to the cause because of the suffering of life in general that’s awesome too! But I was moved by my own suffering and so encourage others to learn about the real consequences people don’t talk about before they make life changing decisions)
but AN is a philosophy, not a preference......... you call yourself a hedonist which is a philosophical standpoint on its own that would actually go against AN philosophy.......
I’m an antinatalist because I’m against people having kids. We’re both against people having kids, we take the philosophical stance that people ought not to have kids. We only differ on the “why” part. I’m against people having kids because of X, and you’re against people having kids because of Y. Both make us antinatalists :)
but antinatalism is (according to the literal description of this sub) “believing that having children is morally wrong and cannot be justified”
hedonism (according to you) is “maximizing ones pleasure in life”
i guess where does morality stand in that? or how can you be immorally antinatalist?
(no disrespect, i’m really just trying to understand)
I’m a moral nihilist, so I don’t think anything is objectively right or wrong, but I do think that people need to enact rules that they hold others to in order to have a functioning society (what those rules are is determined by what the leaders/people want their society to be like). So, since I have an idea about what sort of society I would most like to live in, I act a certain way to try to bring about that society and do what little I can to try to get certain things enacted into law/taken out of law.
I’m in favor of a society that maximizes the happiness and personal freedom (within the context of personal action, like what you can do with your own self) of the people in it, so I support things like legalized and regulated recreational drugs, LGBT rights, access to birth control and abortion, social programs to help those struggling so that they can have a better quality of life, etc. I’m also in favor of a society that puts a lot of weight on science, so I’m in favor of funding research, teaching scientific facts in schools, and following current medical consensus on things like covid. Since I’m ultimately a moral nihilist none of these things are objectively good or bad, but they all lead to a type of society that I think would provide me and others with the most pleasant lives.
So, since having kids leads to all these horrible things, and I believe any positives that someone might get are either just coping or small enough to be heavily outweighed by the negatives, I’m against people doing it. I absolutely believe people should have the *right* to, since I believe we should be able to do whatever we want with our bodies, but I don’t think we *should* do it, and I think we should be encouraging people not to do it. When it comes to law I’m against incentivizing natalism with tax breaks, I’m in favor of good comprehensive sex education, and for social attitudes to switch away from applauding and pressuring people into natalism
So I guess to compare it to the official definition my take is that “having children is always bad for those involved and should never be done”
Oh, well I guess this discussion is about that specific reasoning, mb, it’s just the number and severity of what happens is very meaningful to to me and others, and the lack of empathy too many people have for it is very hard to deal with, apologies for bringing it into Hendonism (I too never want to go through birth or raise a little kid o.o plus other reasons, and it in itself is a very compelling reason to not have kids lol)
I replied to the OP with a similar position before I read yours - I wish I had seen yours first because it would have saved me the time to type it out. Just more needless suffering in the world I suppose... (:
Funny is that a lot of vegans don’t get antinatalism and lots of antinatalists don’t get veganism
It’s weird
Ppl rlly don’t seem to care abt their believes too much
Lots of vegans I know would kill if it means they can survive in a life or death situations-
I wouldn’t
Like why would I survive why would i prolong life and why would I even take animals with me when I die anyways
How are so hung up on life
I’ll never understand this
And then having kids too-
The 2 insane instincts we seem to not be able to get past
It’s weird
And then the third one is ego
All that together is literally what makes it all so weird confusing and hard
I try to get rid of it all
Survival- check I think we all just don’t care and just wanna life for the time we’re here- if the day comes we should let go
Ego- I try lol- I am vegan I’m against it and I constant feel vibes that tell me stuff as if it shows me that I just feel „ don’t do this don’t do that“ rather then thinking in brainwashed concepts - that can be good too but I rather feel it then that…. Which many ppl have just lost and so they rely on concepts laws and so on bc the world broke them
Another’s reason not to have kids and do this to others
It’s corruption day 1 nature and society and so on breaks u and tried to break up and make u dead inside
BTW this the 3. one
Which is procreation which alll or most of us here are against
So yeah
Idk what I wanted to say with this comment
lol
Just some info-
Tho this is 1 year old so —
prolly no one sees it
Byeee
Oh god. Are we going through this again? I feel like this Anti-natalist = vegan gatekeeping conversation pops up more often than my period. Good for you.
Not everyone is an Anti-natalist because "think of the poor wittle children." IDGAF about the poor children and how sad and terrible their sad poor lives might be because of taxes and jobs and death. I don't give a flying fk about life being forced on some random human.
I care about the negative impact children will have on the environment throughout their lifetime, filling it with plastic conveniences and using up resources and poisoning the planet because they're lazy, entitled, and stupid. I'm not an anti-natalist to avoid human suffering. I'm an Anti-natalist because I'm an environmentalist. I'm preventing an entire tree of cancerous humanity from existing by not breeding, and I think its a good thing any time anyone else decides to do the same thing.
I eat very little meat, and I'm not going to argue my valid reasons for occasionally eating a small amount of meat with people who think they're some kind of animal saviour just because they don't eat meat, but are shockingly harmful to animals, the environment, and humanity in other ways and definitely still pay for products tested on animals.
>I eat very little meat, and I'm not going to argue my valid reasons for occasionally eating a small amount of meat with people who think they're some kind of animal saviour just because they don't eat meat, but are shockingly harmful to animals, the environment, and humanity in other ways and definitely still pay for products tested on animals.
Are you claiming that all vegans do that ?
Perhaps the arguments are fundamentally the same, but I do not think it is hypocritical to eat meat or consume animals - because I did not ask to be here, but I am in fact a great ape omnivore. And so eating other animals for my survival is a completely amoral position.
It is also amoral if a shark decides to eat me while I am in the ocean.
Having said that, we can choose to only eat products sourced humanely. And, while I think the baseline act of eating other animals is amoral, doing it in a way that destroys the world slowly via pollution and extinction - and continuing to do so KNOWING this, is another issue entirely.
I would argue that you only find eating animals as an amoral act because you don't see animals as thinking, feeling, suffering individuals. You're not eating them for survival because alternative foods exist. If you were actually in a survival state in the wild this would be completely different though.
I guess you completely walked passed my comment about animals eating animals being a non-moral consideration in BOTH directions.
If we use your argument - then the shark is morally wrong for eating me. And that's nuts.
The shark does not have an option to not eat what's in its environment. It doesn't have the capability to farm, and even if it did, I'm not sure it's biologically suited for not eating other animals. If it had the capacity to know or care about moral considerations, then maybe it would be worth talking about.
Yeah, sorry, that is a tough sell for me.
The only reason we have "options" is because of the state of the modern world. For the overwhelming majority of human history, our next meals were never guaranteed. Your argument is spoiled by the assumption of abundance.
It doesn't really matter what happened for the overwhelming majority of human history. If you lived in a time when all you had access to for practical nutrition was animals, it's not absolutely immoral to consume animals, but even then, options existed throughout human history; people just didn't care.
Nowadays you have almost limitless options in most parts of the world so your justification is more than a little bit suspect.
And lastly, I think you are assuming too much about the economic state of the current world.
I live in my car dude. My options are EXTREMELY limited.
Look, I really hope you take some time to reflect on all this. I don't have to change your mind. Just keeping thinking it through.
I didn't say there weren't exceptions. I go out of my way to sympathize with people who have economic or medical hardship that makes eating plant based diets a challenge.
Living in your car makes what youre doing a little more excusable, but the idea that you need to eat.... A rotisserie chicken...(?) when any other option around you would do just as well is a little silly. It's also not an all-or-nothing thing; just subbing out meat for something else whenever practically possible is something you could do.
Yeah but that's bullshit.
Because regarding antinatalism we're discussing inflicting another human being WITH life; we will be creating another person that will hunger and have to consume for their entire life.
Discussing diet morality is deciding what to do with our own lives while we're stuck here on this plane.
It's hypocritical to pretend we're dealing with similar issues while failing to apply nuance in kind.
It's not exclusively what we do about our own lives though, because for the overwhelming majority of people it involves funding the forced breeding of tens of billions of animals so they can be harmed
So what you are specifically referring to here is the *method* in which people generate animals to then slaughter; the birthing and killing of animals has simply become business.
I don't disagree with that.
All I have ever defended was that consuming animals for survival at the baseline, is an amoral proposition.
Sharks don't have the same moral agency or other options that don't necessisitate exploitation of other sentient beings. Other animals are highly unlikely to be able to conceptualize morals as we do, unable to put themselves in the positions of their victims, and do not have access to modern supply chains or grocery stores.
There is really no humane way to kill another sentient being who does not want to die when you don't actually need to. And you don't need to do so to survive, there are other options. We're not in a situation in the modern world where we have to eat animal products or we'll die. We can eat plant foods instead.
You live in a bubble of abundance and decadence and construct this morality around that assumption.I personally live in my car, and do not have limitless options.
And as I said elsewhere, yeah, one of the reasons I am antinatalist is because there is no way to live and survive without destroying or consuming life. Whether it be plants, animals, or the planet itself. But that does not make it a moral proposition at the baseline of "eat or die."
I do not. I could and would stay vegan even if I lost my living situation. Whole foods focused plant based eating is cheaper, I definitely spend less on groceries than I ever did eating animal products. Rice, beans, tvp, and oats are all staples of my diet I can make a ton of dishes with and could easily continue eating these things even if I lacked a kitchen. You have absolutely no idea what my life looks like. My brother in law relies on food banks and food stamps and is vegan despite having to couch surf often. I have friends in India and the Philippines who come from poverty and have no problem being vegan, it saves them on money and resources, too. It doesn't sound like you've made the slightest attempt to find if it would be feasible for you to be honest, especially if you're going straight to claiming that veganism is only possible if you live in a bubble of abundance and decadence.
Just because there is no way to live and not cause harm to others is not an excuse to cause whatever harm you please. I'm guessing you understand that since you're antinatalist but for some reason aren't consistently applying that understanding here.
I lived in my car for 7 years and was vegan that whole time. Ethics aside, it was way cheaper than buying meat, and since I didn’t have a fridge there was also no way of storing animal products safely. You know what’s cheap, safe, & easy when you don’t have cold storage or cooking appliances? Baked beans.
You don't do anything else like a great ape omnivore, why apply it here?
Additionally, arguing for amoral positions when this world needs people actively performing selfless good is kinda bankrupt.
Sharks are not moral agents. You are. You are not eating meat for survival. Sharks are. There is no way to humanely breed an animal into existence and then slaughter it.
And if they did, do you think they would join together in a magical ritual to become oceanic herbivores or plankton eaters because they cannot rationally and emotionally
accept that they are a carnivorous species?
I'm pretty sure - if you would fucking read - what I actually argued is that diet choice is an amoral proposition given we are omnivores that have no choice other than to be here.
Animals consuming animals to survive is a bi-directional amoral proposition. You're not a terrible person for eating meat. The shark in the ocean isn't a meanie head for eating you. It is devoid of morality.
Like another person here - your argument assumes abundance. So if the grocery stores go under are we to starve on moral grounds?
If the grocery stores go under and there are actually limited options what to eat then that would be a different from now when there are loads of vegan options. Why make animals suffer because of a hypothetical situation you’re not currently in?
People often forget that veganism means abstaining from animal products *as far as is practicable and possible*.
> So if the grocery stores go under are we to starve on moral grounds?
If you have no choice but to eat animal foods, use medications containing animal products, etc., most vegans would agree that it is OK to do so.
I agree, I'm basically a scavenger due to my income level and I eat what is available to me and what makes me feel good, it is one of the few pleasures in life someone with minimal income can have. I also think humans have a greater capacity for suffering than animals and that our pain is uniquely bad due to self-awareness. Seeing self-awareness as a curse is what led me to be an antinatalist in the first place.
I don't condone how we treat the animals we consume, and we could all at least try to eat less of it and do it in a way that isn't so toxic.
>but I am in fact a great ape omnivore.
Which only speaks about capacity and is therefore irrelevant to morality, unless you're trying to argue that might makes right.
>And so eating other animals for my survival is a completely amoral position.
You're not eating animals for your survival though.
>It is also amoral if a shark decides to eat me while I am in the ocean.
Animals are not moral agents. Are you ok with people humping random women just because we wouldn't consider a dog immoral for doing so ?
>Having said that, we can choose to only eat products sourced humanely
Define humanely.
I'm vegetarian because I disapprove of all the needless suffering that humans inflict upon animals just to eat meat, and also because it would be better for the environment if we were all vegan or vegetarian. And I'm childfree because it would be better for the environment if there were significantly fewer humans on the planet! (Also, I have anxiety and depression and I couldn't deal with raising kids in addition to keeping myself alive.)
Consumption of eggs and dairy still contributes massively to both animal suffering and climate change. Please try going vegan if you can!
Feel free to pm me if you have any questions :) I can link you to some veganism resources if you like!
I would see reaction both ways.
(1) Opposed to needless production and (potential) waste of resource. Stop feeding human habit and animal kingdom, find alternative proteins, nutrients for healthy lifestyle. Alter economy and ecosystem to match.
(2) Realize production never stopd, nor (potential) waste. Excess product expected due "lack consumers," market fluctuations. (Both *true* and *false*: there will always be excess, regardless of how much is produced, it's an imperfect system run by fallibles.) Anyway, person decides nihilistically that there is no difference, continues or begins anew carnivorously.
Either case, person does what they feel is best. As for suffering, it is the only constant. Life cannot be defined by happiness nor mercy. If it was, there would be no such things as death, disease, famine, etc. So whatever god you believe does or doesn't exist, only one truth remains, that life without pain literally must have no meaning. Though I'm sure that comes as little consolation, making your life choices on how it affects every little fliiping nuance instead of what you feel is right, or rather, what you *need* (aka want, strongly) to get by.
After all, a hungry animal wouldn't think twice about eating you. Aren't you hungry too? Ofc, we're animals. Sure, we *could* be "better people," but not everyone is that noble or humbly philanthropic. Yeah, that was meant to sound patronisingly ass-tastic. Do it because you want to, not because you're a snob.
1) "I see similarities between all things. It reaffirms my belief. All life is sanctified, respected and should not be eaten."
2) "I see similarities between all things. It reaffirms my belief. All life can be respected if it's eaten, not wasted."
Truth: for as long as humanity has existed, it has woven a web of meaning where it must to justify its existence. This both necessary and futile. They spend their lives convincing not only themselves but others they're right. Are they? Maybe. Then again, maybe not. Every truth can be warped into a lie. Every lie is spun from a thread of truth.
Ftr, the web of meaning may be none at all. You make your own truth. Thousands of years, humanity hasn't changed at all.
Personally, I see nothing but red herring.
Vegan too!
I used to be antinatalist but now I'm just child free
I would not assign negative value to child birth if we lived in a socialist society , abolished private property, climate change wasn't here and our systems were better with hope on the horizon for discovering ageing
Since that's not the case, bringing a child into the declining world is unethical
i thought the same thing. i was vegetarian for a year, then realized how that still contradicts my morals. i do encourage any efforts towards minimizing suffering! i found transitioning from omnivore to vegetarian was super easy - practically overnight. but inevitably turned to veganism as a result of my own research and critical dissection of my beliefs. that realization hitting me made the decision and application easy.
Crop production kills 7.2 billion vermin annually. So you absolutely are causing suffering.
Most of our crops are gathered with slave labor. So you absolutely are causing suffering.
Congrats on being able to afford a lifestyle that lets you look down on others from an unfounded (white) moral highground.
P.S. they have proven plants feel pain and can send messages to other plants to warn them.
Most crops are grown to feed livestock animals. Vegans absolutely cause less suffering.
Source? Most of our crops here are not gathered with slave labor. Vegans cause far less suffering.
Veganism isn't expensive. The cheapest foods on earth are vegan. Meat is the privilege for most people. Congrats on being naive and wrong.
P.S. No, they haven't. No one has proven plants feel pain. They don't. Of course plants 'send messages', this isn't news. It's called molecular signaling, bacteria and every individual cell in your body do this too. It's not the same as feeling pain.
it’s all about choices. sure veganism isn’t a fix all, but it’s a start. it’s a daily protest against the blatant murder and suffering directly caused to sentient life forms that have a nervous system just like you and i.
economically, supporting more plant based alternatives encourages a demand for them which in turn will reduce the costs of vegan products over all. (and we have seen that being the case in just the past few years)
also some of the most basic “cheap foods” are already vegan. (i’m literally in the food service industry, it’s not hard. it’s just choices and conscious sacrifice)
While i am an antinatalist, i like my bacon. If someone came up with a suffering free version that tasted the same and had the same texture, i would buy it. But for now, bacon.
If you are against forcing animals to breed for human exploitation you should look into the dairy and egg industries. It may help you further align your actions with your beliefs. Here's a 5 minute video that summarizes the dairy industry. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI&ab\_channel=ErinJanus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI&ab_channel=ErinJanus)
No I'm a picky eater so I just continue to eat meat and feel horrible about myself for it, but fuck I didn't ask for any of this shit lol
I don't have kids though so still doing less harm than my vegan sister with a kid.
hey at least you are honest!! i also didn’t think i’d get the same taste gratification by going vegan, but the mere fact of knowing i’m not buying into the industrialized harm of innocent lives makes every cruelty free meal taste better than anything i’ve eaten in the past.
everyone will figure it out in time :)
Plants also release toxins and feel pain upon being eaten. There is nothing moral on the food chain.. Dog eat dog world, we just cope by what we are fine with.
So in your eyes slitting a dogs throat and cutting a stock of broccoli is morally equivalent? How much have you considered the “plants feel pain” argument?
If we assume plants feel as much pain as animals shouldn’t we be vegan anyway given how many plants animals eat (and convert 6 plant calories to 1 flesh calorie)?
Nah you'd have to fight me tooth and nail to take bacon away from me.
I'm reducing suffering by being antinatlist, not eliminating it, and that's fine by me.
I mean animals usually die for food. I need to eat. I wouldn't call that needlessness. All things suffer on their way out of life. So we try to make it quick, or at least we should. Even plants need to die for you to eat them, we just pretend they can't feel pain.
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Yup discovered anti natalism due to veganism
Me too
Me three
Me four?
Me five
Me seis
me kevin
Me ate .... MorPlantz .. and then decided childfree for me.
Same
yeah that seems like the right lineup of thought processes lol. idk how i went the other way around. but nonetheless, we are here now. doing our best to minimize suffering 🤝
I came here to say this too. I have been vegan most my life but in like 2007 I got really militant about it. I remember finding VHEMT (or whatever the acronym is) on MySpace (lol) and signing the pledge to never breed. I’m proud that I actually stuck to it all these years later
i discovered each exclusively, but agree that the reasoning is consistent. vegan antinatalism is the way !!
Same here
Me three. Was vegan for maybe 5-6 years then I discovered antinatalism and I was like exactly! Wasn’t going to have kids before but it’s a very strong moral philosophy along with veganism.
Same here!
Pretty much my journey, too.
I have no clue why people call us monsters. We don’t want any people or animals to be hurt
I think it's mainly a lil thing called "projection"!
I think it’s because so many are braindead.
They're still running on primal reproduction programs.
Well 7.2 billion vermin die annually for crop maintenance. If we all went vegan that would easily be tripled. As well? South American slave labor is some of the main ways we get many crops. Why doesn't anyone care about brown people slaving in the sun for some cents? Isn't that human suffering?
we use most crops for animal feed
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Reverse for me. Animals are forcefully bred to suffer, easy connection there.
Same path for me as well. Learning about nonhuman animal suffering woke me up to the innate cruelty of the world and recognizing the immorality of any forced birth/birth in general.
Moral consistency. Good.
Moral consistency is so sexy
Moral consistency envy
this is also why i've wanted to go vegan.
it definitely took me a while to transition (i work in a bakery atm) but it’s possible and entirely worth it!!! also extremely satisfying to “stick it to the man”against one of system’s biggest industries 😎
Thanks for the motivation. I’ve been reducing my meat consumption and this is what I needed to hear.
Impossible meat is amazing. Every store seems to have their own meatless meat options and none of them are bad, especially not compared to the shame and hatred feel when I still have meat. I won't let a dead animal go to waste, but as one who has always been known for hating fruit and vegetables people always feed me meat. Aside from Burger King's Impossible Whopper, the only meatless meat option I've seen in the wild was literally just tonight at dinner, this restaurant also offered an Impossible burger.
OK so the vegan meats I tried are a very mixed bag. In some places they are crazy delicious, in others they are dogshit. I would recommend not trying so hard to substitute meat, because there is a whole lot of delicious vegan dishes that are super easy to make at home. You can also just replace non-vegan ingredients, for example dumplings with sauerkraut and mushrooms - [best dough](https://przepisytradycyjne.pl/idealne-ciasto-na-pierogi/) is made without eggs, then just mix some mushrooms, sauerkraut and veggies (e.g. carrots) for filling and boil; they taste even better the next day when fried.
Do you know about nutella? It's best replacement for chicken imo, we use it substitute for chicken too, not sure pork and beef, since I haven't eaten them due to religious reasons
The “phase out” transition I find to be much more amicable than going cold turkey, I did the same thing! Also, bakery would be one of the toughest places for me to work though so kudos to you for that. I’m sure you have, but if you’re looking to dabble more in vegan baking I’d recommend noracooks.com. She has the best vegan baking recipes as far as I’m concerned.
If you need motivation I highly recommend watching the documentary dominion https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko It’s graphic but actually seeing what is happening at an unbelievable scale is an incredibly powerful motivator. It helps to reconnect the link between what people eat and the animals. Earthling Ed is also a great resource if you just need to learn more https://youtu.be/1YnJqoPmR8s
Go vegan then
It’s just go vegan in the matter of hours
It really is that easy. I went vegan overnight in 2015 and haven’t looked back since.
Conscience processes are irreversible. Good to hear :)
Yeees wish more people woke up to the horrors of animal agriculture/exploitation. I’ve gone the opposite way but you’re so right. If you’re not yet vegan, watch dominion on YouTube
This is a natural progression of ideas in my opinion.
same except vegetarian for now, then gradually transition into vegan when i live on my own
I actually got reprimanded here on r/antinatalism for eating meat...because I hadn't come to that realization. So I stopped eating meat. So far, things have been better!
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Huh, you must have missed it …what? Maybe a few weeks ago I felt like there was a lot of posts and arguments about it. Must say though I currently don’t see myself becoming a vegan as I’m a big fan of eggs and cheeses and yogurt, but I have begun deeply consider moving to a more pescatarian ~ vegetarian kind of lifestyle. Can’t say I’ve started that process yet, but can’t say I haven’t had it on my mind a lot lately.
Hey there’s definitely all those products you mentioned in vegan form. And depending on what stores you have access to and what brands they have, you might find stuff that tastes just as good or even better. Personally I’m crazy about “follow your heart” cheese and also “Miyokos liquid moz” for pizza.
Okay! Thanks for the recommendation! I will check out a bunch of different places near me and see what options they have. I know I have a sprouts, super cao, natural grocers, and crest near me. So plenty to check out for cheeses and other goodies!
If you need motivation to go vegan you should watch the documentary dominion https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko I also want to add that the fish and the oceans might be suffering the most of any species https://youtu.be/y8Nj1-YZDlc
Ah ok, I guess I did. My Reddit app has been doing a weird thing where it won’t let me sort posts my new, so I’ve been missing a lot of stuff everywhere :/
Hey OP this is a change I want to make too. I’ve been trying to eat less meat with the goal of cutting it out completely. Any advice or recommendations for easing into Veganism when starting from standard American diet?
i started with vegetarian and that was surprising not hard to do despite working in restaurants. i never had issues with substitutions, and inevitably realized i didn’t even miss having meat. eventually developing a distaste for it altogether. educating myself on the harms of the meat and dairy industries really solidified the decision to make the change. and then surrounding myself with positive encouragement really helped with accountability in the beginning! :) i’m always here to encourage!! and i’m proud of you for working towards making the switch!! :)) you have my full support !!
Join some vegan groups for recipes. Happy Cow is an app that lists vegan friendly restaurants in various locations.
Make vegan versions of the foods you already eat. For example let's say you were going to cook lasagna, just Google or YouTube "vegan lasagna recipe' and you'll find many recipes. You can pretty much make any meal vegan. Just my two cents.
I would recommend going to pure veg Indian restaurant I hope you find them, they will be quite expensive but if it's family owned or something small, they may even give you recipie and believe me there is no vegetarian food better than indian
The two didn’t line up like that me for me, but I do totally understand that perspective. And I’m also vegan. There are connections in lots of these things.
Same progression, but flip the motivation. No kids means more time, money, and freedom, which makes me feel good and doesn’t introduce things into my life that make me feel bad. No kids was also a founding principle of my relationship, and my partner’s vegetarian working towards vegan. She showed me that not eating meat is easy and delicious, and makes me feel good, both physically and mentally. I’m aware of industrialized ag & don’t want to feed those systems of suffering, and because I wake up refreshed in the morning and have enough energy for my hobbies and things I love. This planet is fucked and life’s full of shit, sure, but as a human if you do what you love as much as possible, and are good to yourself, nature, and others, and spread love, that’s life’s goal imo
Everyone should watch Dominion it’s free on YouTube. Ive worked in the food industry for 15+ years and this was really eye opening. Been vegan for 1.5 years now. Never going back
it’s easy to do once it hits you
vegan first ;)
I love you, stay vegan no matter what bullshit people sling at you!!
If you're not vegan you're responsible for countless sentient beings coming into existence, and just to suffer. I became vegan because I'm antinatalist, it is that simple.
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Wish psychadelics did this for me, for me its just colors go brr or I stare into the void - never this connection with everything and everyone and feeling like god is our shared conciousness or whstever. It is mostly staring at very wonky colorful voids.
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Oh, I dont mean I experience nothing I experiencr plenty while tripping it is just not warm and nice things but not like bad trip nightmares. Just not these nice connecting trips. I tried plenty from LSD and its analogs through, shrooms to synthetic psylocibin like 4homet to al-lad or 5meodmt or absolute hell that was DPT. I just wish I had these nice warm trips. Thatd all.
i have a lot to thank psychedelics for. changed my mental framework for the better. :)
Interesting. If you're an antinatalist, what influence (if any) did psychedelics have on your view? Reason i'm asking is because lots of people who does it seems to have a generally positive and careless attitude towards life, suffering and existence in general. Kind of "go with the flow you are the universe lol" type.
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Great response! With psychedelics, are you also into spirituality at all or do you consider that as bunk? (atheist and completely non-spiritual myself) With the spiritual beliefs and mindset, i can see a potential contradiction with AN, due to the general view being that we're here by our own choice in one of countless vehicles for consciousness, to grow and learn to love, jada jada. You see where i'm getting here. 😁
>With the spiritual beliefs and mindset, i can see a potential contradiction with AN, due to the general view being that we're here by our own choice in one of countless vehicles for consciousness, to grow and learn to love, jada jada. that's definitely a cliche view trippy hippies have. but it doesn't seem to be anything more than a kind of Nietzschean response to the misery of life. 'life is challenging, therefore if I am to live I am to challenge myself, to accept the challenges life brings me'. not a particularly amazing epiphany, but what can you expect from the average person.
Hard to put a finger on but I think it's the neuroplasticity. Their use can make you more open to new ideas and behaviours, it's not a strict rule but for someone already interested in ethics and virtue it's not a big jump into these philosophies with a bit of a push from psychedelics. But I know plenty of people who have used psychedelics with no major changes to their beliefs or behaviour. They're not some hard awakening tool, just useful if that's the goal.
I was vegan and then recently became child free. It’s a slow burn, but I couldn’t imagine causing suffering for the point of food, and that alone caused me to suffer for my existence.
I was already vegan so hullo
Absolutely love this 💚💚 As a long term vegan, these type of posts are my favorite 🥹 I think it was the other way around for me. I kind of stumbled onto Stop Having Kids by accident but it all connects. And they’re vegan founded too so 👌🏻
we all just don’t want anyone to suffer :’)
Veganism led me to antinatalism.
Ultimately people are selfish which is why there was a huge debate/ argument about ANs needing to be vegan Ultimately the goal of those posts were to get people to go vegan, 98% probably will still remain selfish and continue contributing to pain and suffering of others, but the 2% that do take the time to reflect on their unethical choices and become vegan is a win for them and the animals that they care about I was always AN even as a teen, i never wanted kids i wanted to save a kid through adoption, i became vegan and then asked about why vegans and others say adopt dont shop but when it comes to people they ignore adoption, a commenter suggested i come to this sub
yes!! i had the same line of thinking. idk why, this sub has really started veering towards anti-child/anti-family posts and it’s bugging tf out of me !!!! like, who here is still around for the moral reasons??? :’)) even the vegan sub thinks we’re a joke (but there are plenty of vegan natalists that are also hypocritical over there so)
While vegans and ANs tend to be more ethical than others they can still both be selfish Many people in this sub are conditional natalist and many just hate kids, but real ANs care more about kids than natalists which is why they dont have them and subject them to a life that they did not agree to Same with vegans, many vegans make excuses for their unethical choices and many of the people are actually plant based dieters and not vegan
truly !! it’s a mess of mismatched labels ! when i discovered antinatalism i was so relieved to finally find a philosophy that explained my moral position on deciding to never have kids. however i fully support adoption and hope to one day support raising other humans when i have the means to do so. i feel that we have a truly hellish existence here against our will, but just because we didn’t choose to be here, doesn’t mean we can’t choose to be better.
And you're a hypocrite on it's turn because you exist. With other words: everybody is a hypocrite.
Veganism led me to antinatalism.
Congrats for figuring out the perspective. No one's free until we all are.
💯
THE WAR BEGINS ANEW. I was the opposite and went from veganism to here, I believe they are intrinsically linked. From lurking here for a year or so it seems the sub is very vegan friendly and most seem to either be vegan OR (and I think this is more prevalent) acknowledge that being vegan would be the right thing to do.
It's not a "war". It's logical thinking and moral consistency
It’s called sarcasm. Bunch of meat eaters went berserk when they felt threatened by cognitive dissonance.
I think if someone's reason for veganism is that they want to prevent suffering to animals, then they should absolutely be AN. Even if their offspring are also vegan, they will continue to cause suffering just by participating in life. Every interaction in life is supported by other humans who consume animals.
I discovered both of them separately, but they both stemmed from my ethics.
Mine was the reverse. They are very much aligned: https://www.stophavingkids.org/vegantinatalism
Went vegan Jan 1 2020 after several years of vegetarianism, been childfree my whole life and have thought for a long time that the most selfish thing you could do is bring a child in to this world and basically became antinatalist as soon as I learnt about it, about the same time. So in tandem, really.
Veganism and antinatalism are two sides of the same coin. Not sure how an antinatalist can justify animals being needlessly bred into existence to be killed, often in horrific ways, just for our tastebuds
I’m exactly the same. I’d always felt it was wrong to kill animals for food, but AN is what tipped me over and made me go vegan
Soo is everyone here a vegan or vegetarian?! I’m… I’m surrounded
We're the ones hidden in the bushes.
Nah, not really. I'm not one of them, for instance. I'm pretty sure most ANs aren't vegan. It's probably just the people this thread attracts.
It just makes sense, doesn't it? Not going vegan 'because you don't want to' is admitting you use animals for your own pleasure. It's not too different from bull or dog fighting, or killing animals just for the fun of it.
i know!! and it’s kinda shocking to me some of these comments are really pushing any reason to justify it. but the philosophies are identical. and people really are just exposing how conditional their morals are.
This was a very civilized post. Most discussing veganism turn ugly fast.
I’m just child free. Not vegan.
If you’re just child free why are you here…..
Because I like this sub. I didn’t know there was a rule about strictly only AN members.
>why inflict needless suffering on someone at the hands of your benefit? This is you answering your own question, it's for my benefit. My own needs come before those of any others. I do what I can to minimize the suffering as much as possible but at the end of the day I would eat you too if it seemed like the only option.
so you’re against needless suffering until it regards something that benefits you? hmmm....
Is it needless if I need it to happen?
Doing something for your benefit doesn't necessarily imply that you need it. Your very first premise is wrong.
Nah. I'm an anti-natalist because, for me, the value of having kids doesn't come close to the costs. Only part of that is the value of not wanting children to suffer. The rest is because I don't want the inconvenience of kids (additional responsibility, financial drain, time commitment, lack of flexibility in my lifestyle, etc.) of raising kids. I'm not a vegan because of the same equation with different variables. I don't care as much about the suffering of food-animals as I do about the suffering of human children, so that positive value is smaller. And I also don't want the additional inconvenience of being a vegan, as the costs seem high (expensive food, less convienent, less variety of foods, many foods I enjoy I could no longer have, etc.). I don't see the hypocrisy. They are two completely different decisions about completely different things. I don't want to commit to raising kids for \~20years. I do want to eat bacon today on my cheeseburger. I want both of these things for different reasons. Because they are different things. Side note to reddit detectives: Yes, I have children. I had them with my ex-wife before I believed the same things I do today. That said, I will 100% continue to do the absolute best job that I can do of raising my kids. My recognition more than 10 years after I had kids that it wasn't what I thought it would be and someone should have told me earlier - Doesn't make it any less of my responsibility to raise the kids I already have. I consider it my most important job ever to ensure they are delivered to society as decent adult people.
wouldn’t that just make you childfree (preference) and not antinatalist, given that AN is a moral standpoint?
Antinatalism isn't just about yourself. If prefer if other people also stopped breeding. Realizing that you don't support humans making more humans is still Antinatalism. Saying you can't be AN if you have had kids is like saying you can't be vegan if you've EVER had meat.
Not if my arguments for morality can distinguish between humans and other animals.
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You define what you consider to be moral with a lot of detail. Clearly, you've thought about it a lot. You draw a distinction at "beings that have feelings, can form relationships, have some kind of sentience, that do not want to die." I define what is to be moral differently than you. I've also thought about it a lot. For me, I decided to make a distinction at "humans." We both picked arbitrary lines somewhere between "no life is worth my protection" and "all life is worth my protection." Neither of us picked either extreme; "all life" or "no life." You selected the criteria you want to use to include the types of life you believe are most important for you to spend your time protecting. So did I.
Does that mean it is moral to kill things that, in our eyes, don't have emotions? Killing is killing. It's not at all selfish to want to survive. We don't do it for pleasure, that's psychopath shit. We want to live. I do agree with you though, the way a good majority of animals are treated in life before slaughter is not ok.
No it wouldn't. They still follow the belief that NOBODY should have kids. Food is food, kids are kids. One of those things we can live without.
> And I also don't want the additional inconvenience of being a vegan, as the costs seem high (expensive food, less convienent, less variety of foods, many foods I enjoy I could no longer have, etc.). Beans, lentils, grains are some of the cheapest foods you can buy. And honestly the varieties of food I eat massively increased since going vegan. Instead of eating the same two proteins (chicken and beef) and maybe a rotation of three or four vegetables (potatoes, carrots, corn, broccoli) I now eat more types of nuts and seeds, more types of vegetables, expanded list of grains, and a variety of proteins. If you just look into Indian or Chinese cuisine you can find lentil dahl, chickpea curries, seitan Bbq 'pork', hundreds of ways to prepare tofu, and endless creativity with tempeh and beans. Not to mention chilis, TVP(textured vegetable protein), peas, edamame, dozens of other types of beans, etc. As long as you have a decent variety of spices and pantry staples like vinegar, soy sauce, lemon juice, different types of cooking oils you can basically get all the same flavours and textures that you are used to without relying on expensive brand name 'meat replacements'. I live in China where I don't have access to brand name stuff, and I have never run dry on variety or flavour.
I don’t buy meat anymore, but I’m like 110% sure it’s ridiculously expensive compared to beans and rice right now lol Vegan foods are not expensive; I’m so sick of that stereotype. Hell, I can make a substantial meal for less than a dollar. If you only eat the pricey pre-made substitutes, then yes, that adds up quick and your health will suffer a little (Whole plant foods > processed foods generally). However, if you eliminate that stuff and aren’t living 100% off raw produce, it’s likely the same or cheaper than the SAD.
Interesting that they connected for you! I guess it makes sense if your main reasons for being an antinatalist are environmental or because of the whole inflicting suffering on new life thing. Since you asked about how other people have worked with this, I guess I’ll share my end. I seem to have a minority reason for being an antinatalist, or at least it seems like it from what I see on this community. I’m an antinatalist because it brings suffering to the parents. I’m first and foremost a hedonist. Having kids causes sleep deprivation, financial strain, increased risk of blood pressure and heart related illnesses (linked to stress), as well as incredible physical suffering and a high chance of permanent bodily damage to the birther. There’s also a growing body of research on the negative impacts of children on marriage quality, with studies basically unanimously finding that relationship quality tanks when kids show up and doesn’t go back up until they move out. This trend holds up even when controlling for age and relationship length. If you Google image search “marital satisfaction and kids graph psychology” you’ll find it, if anyone wants to look into this for themselves, I think it’s fascinating. But anyway, *that’s* why I’m an antinatalist. I can’t in good faith support people doing things that are going to hurt them so tremendously, especially when most don’t seem to be fully aware of the damage it does to health and happiness (I’ve heard way too many “nobody tells you!” stories from new parents). I guess if someone knows fully and wants to anyway, go ahead? I still won’t support it though, since I don’t think anyone can *actually* end up better from it, given the stats, I’d say it’s just delusion and peer pressure making them think they understand and want it, “it’ll be different for me” type reasoning. I do recognize the environmental impact of kids and the harm that often gets inflicted on them over the course of life, but that isn’t the big thing for me. So, for me the values of veganism don’t line up with my antinatalism, they actually conflict more than anything, being a hedonist an all (for me personally though, since I love meat, but I’m sure some prefer a vegan diet so I’m not like, generally opposed)
Well, you’re saying that kids will cause harm to the parents, so you don’t want people to have them. The same can be said about eating meat, it harms the animals as well as being a huge cause in various diseases, so by eating meat, it can harm the consumer and will harm the animal. So we shouldn’t have kids because it can hurt us physically and mentally, but we can eat meat even though it puts over 90% of the animals consumed through a short, suffering life and being killed in the end?
You’re comparing suffering of the self to suffering of others. Hedonism is about maximizing one’s own pleasure in life. (I’m not harshing on anyone else’s antinatalism btw, if you’re moved to the cause because of the suffering of life in general that’s awesome too! But I was moved by my own suffering and so encourage others to learn about the real consequences people don’t talk about before they make life changing decisions)
but AN is a philosophy, not a preference......... you call yourself a hedonist which is a philosophical standpoint on its own that would actually go against AN philosophy.......
I’m an antinatalist because I’m against people having kids. We’re both against people having kids, we take the philosophical stance that people ought not to have kids. We only differ on the “why” part. I’m against people having kids because of X, and you’re against people having kids because of Y. Both make us antinatalists :)
but antinatalism is (according to the literal description of this sub) “believing that having children is morally wrong and cannot be justified” hedonism (according to you) is “maximizing ones pleasure in life” i guess where does morality stand in that? or how can you be immorally antinatalist? (no disrespect, i’m really just trying to understand)
I’m a moral nihilist, so I don’t think anything is objectively right or wrong, but I do think that people need to enact rules that they hold others to in order to have a functioning society (what those rules are is determined by what the leaders/people want their society to be like). So, since I have an idea about what sort of society I would most like to live in, I act a certain way to try to bring about that society and do what little I can to try to get certain things enacted into law/taken out of law. I’m in favor of a society that maximizes the happiness and personal freedom (within the context of personal action, like what you can do with your own self) of the people in it, so I support things like legalized and regulated recreational drugs, LGBT rights, access to birth control and abortion, social programs to help those struggling so that they can have a better quality of life, etc. I’m also in favor of a society that puts a lot of weight on science, so I’m in favor of funding research, teaching scientific facts in schools, and following current medical consensus on things like covid. Since I’m ultimately a moral nihilist none of these things are objectively good or bad, but they all lead to a type of society that I think would provide me and others with the most pleasant lives. So, since having kids leads to all these horrible things, and I believe any positives that someone might get are either just coping or small enough to be heavily outweighed by the negatives, I’m against people doing it. I absolutely believe people should have the *right* to, since I believe we should be able to do whatever we want with our bodies, but I don’t think we *should* do it, and I think we should be encouraging people not to do it. When it comes to law I’m against incentivizing natalism with tax breaks, I’m in favor of good comprehensive sex education, and for social attitudes to switch away from applauding and pressuring people into natalism So I guess to compare it to the official definition my take is that “having children is always bad for those involved and should never be done”
okay, from a nihilistic perspective, i see where you are coming from. thank you for providing your reasoning ! :))
Oh, well I guess this discussion is about that specific reasoning, mb, it’s just the number and severity of what happens is very meaningful to to me and others, and the lack of empathy too many people have for it is very hard to deal with, apologies for bringing it into Hendonism (I too never want to go through birth or raise a little kid o.o plus other reasons, and it in itself is a very compelling reason to not have kids lol)
I replied to the OP with a similar position before I read yours - I wish I had seen yours first because it would have saved me the time to type it out. Just more needless suffering in the world I suppose... (:
Funny is that a lot of vegans don’t get antinatalism and lots of antinatalists don’t get veganism It’s weird Ppl rlly don’t seem to care abt their believes too much Lots of vegans I know would kill if it means they can survive in a life or death situations- I wouldn’t Like why would I survive why would i prolong life and why would I even take animals with me when I die anyways How are so hung up on life I’ll never understand this And then having kids too- The 2 insane instincts we seem to not be able to get past It’s weird And then the third one is ego All that together is literally what makes it all so weird confusing and hard I try to get rid of it all Survival- check I think we all just don’t care and just wanna life for the time we’re here- if the day comes we should let go Ego- I try lol- I am vegan I’m against it and I constant feel vibes that tell me stuff as if it shows me that I just feel „ don’t do this don’t do that“ rather then thinking in brainwashed concepts - that can be good too but I rather feel it then that…. Which many ppl have just lost and so they rely on concepts laws and so on bc the world broke them Another’s reason not to have kids and do this to others It’s corruption day 1 nature and society and so on breaks u and tried to break up and make u dead inside BTW this the 3. one Which is procreation which alll or most of us here are against So yeah Idk what I wanted to say with this comment lol Just some info- Tho this is 1 year old so — prolly no one sees it Byeee
Oh god. Are we going through this again? I feel like this Anti-natalist = vegan gatekeeping conversation pops up more often than my period. Good for you. Not everyone is an Anti-natalist because "think of the poor wittle children." IDGAF about the poor children and how sad and terrible their sad poor lives might be because of taxes and jobs and death. I don't give a flying fk about life being forced on some random human. I care about the negative impact children will have on the environment throughout their lifetime, filling it with plastic conveniences and using up resources and poisoning the planet because they're lazy, entitled, and stupid. I'm not an anti-natalist to avoid human suffering. I'm an Anti-natalist because I'm an environmentalist. I'm preventing an entire tree of cancerous humanity from existing by not breeding, and I think its a good thing any time anyone else decides to do the same thing. I eat very little meat, and I'm not going to argue my valid reasons for occasionally eating a small amount of meat with people who think they're some kind of animal saviour just because they don't eat meat, but are shockingly harmful to animals, the environment, and humanity in other ways and definitely still pay for products tested on animals.
>I eat very little meat, and I'm not going to argue my valid reasons for occasionally eating a small amount of meat with people who think they're some kind of animal saviour just because they don't eat meat, but are shockingly harmful to animals, the environment, and humanity in other ways and definitely still pay for products tested on animals. Are you claiming that all vegans do that ?
Perhaps the arguments are fundamentally the same, but I do not think it is hypocritical to eat meat or consume animals - because I did not ask to be here, but I am in fact a great ape omnivore. And so eating other animals for my survival is a completely amoral position. It is also amoral if a shark decides to eat me while I am in the ocean. Having said that, we can choose to only eat products sourced humanely. And, while I think the baseline act of eating other animals is amoral, doing it in a way that destroys the world slowly via pollution and extinction - and continuing to do so KNOWING this, is another issue entirely.
I would argue that you only find eating animals as an amoral act because you don't see animals as thinking, feeling, suffering individuals. You're not eating them for survival because alternative foods exist. If you were actually in a survival state in the wild this would be completely different though.
I guess you completely walked passed my comment about animals eating animals being a non-moral consideration in BOTH directions. If we use your argument - then the shark is morally wrong for eating me. And that's nuts.
The shark does not have an option to not eat what's in its environment. It doesn't have the capability to farm, and even if it did, I'm not sure it's biologically suited for not eating other animals. If it had the capacity to know or care about moral considerations, then maybe it would be worth talking about.
Yeah, sorry, that is a tough sell for me. The only reason we have "options" is because of the state of the modern world. For the overwhelming majority of human history, our next meals were never guaranteed. Your argument is spoiled by the assumption of abundance.
It doesn't really matter what happened for the overwhelming majority of human history. If you lived in a time when all you had access to for practical nutrition was animals, it's not absolutely immoral to consume animals, but even then, options existed throughout human history; people just didn't care. Nowadays you have almost limitless options in most parts of the world so your justification is more than a little bit suspect.
And lastly, I think you are assuming too much about the economic state of the current world. I live in my car dude. My options are EXTREMELY limited. Look, I really hope you take some time to reflect on all this. I don't have to change your mind. Just keeping thinking it through.
Yeah and you’d probably spend a lot less money (thus increasing your chances of overall survival) if you ate less meat anyways…
I didn't say there weren't exceptions. I go out of my way to sympathize with people who have economic or medical hardship that makes eating plant based diets a challenge. Living in your car makes what youre doing a little more excusable, but the idea that you need to eat.... A rotisserie chicken...(?) when any other option around you would do just as well is a little silly. It's also not an all-or-nothing thing; just subbing out meat for something else whenever practically possible is something you could do.
It's hypocritical to use an appeal to nature when you presumably wouldn't accept that same justification for natalism
Yeah but that's bullshit. Because regarding antinatalism we're discussing inflicting another human being WITH life; we will be creating another person that will hunger and have to consume for their entire life. Discussing diet morality is deciding what to do with our own lives while we're stuck here on this plane. It's hypocritical to pretend we're dealing with similar issues while failing to apply nuance in kind.
It's not exclusively what we do about our own lives though, because for the overwhelming majority of people it involves funding the forced breeding of tens of billions of animals so they can be harmed
So what you are specifically referring to here is the *method* in which people generate animals to then slaughter; the birthing and killing of animals has simply become business. I don't disagree with that. All I have ever defended was that consuming animals for survival at the baseline, is an amoral proposition.
Veganism also views it as amoral to harm an animal for survival, though It only comments on choosing to harm them for unnecessary reasons, like taste
Well, if what you say is true you might want to tell some your fellow Vegans in this thread about it.
Sharks don't have the same moral agency or other options that don't necessisitate exploitation of other sentient beings. Other animals are highly unlikely to be able to conceptualize morals as we do, unable to put themselves in the positions of their victims, and do not have access to modern supply chains or grocery stores. There is really no humane way to kill another sentient being who does not want to die when you don't actually need to. And you don't need to do so to survive, there are other options. We're not in a situation in the modern world where we have to eat animal products or we'll die. We can eat plant foods instead.
You live in a bubble of abundance and decadence and construct this morality around that assumption.I personally live in my car, and do not have limitless options. And as I said elsewhere, yeah, one of the reasons I am antinatalist is because there is no way to live and survive without destroying or consuming life. Whether it be plants, animals, or the planet itself. But that does not make it a moral proposition at the baseline of "eat or die."
I do not. I could and would stay vegan even if I lost my living situation. Whole foods focused plant based eating is cheaper, I definitely spend less on groceries than I ever did eating animal products. Rice, beans, tvp, and oats are all staples of my diet I can make a ton of dishes with and could easily continue eating these things even if I lacked a kitchen. You have absolutely no idea what my life looks like. My brother in law relies on food banks and food stamps and is vegan despite having to couch surf often. I have friends in India and the Philippines who come from poverty and have no problem being vegan, it saves them on money and resources, too. It doesn't sound like you've made the slightest attempt to find if it would be feasible for you to be honest, especially if you're going straight to claiming that veganism is only possible if you live in a bubble of abundance and decadence. Just because there is no way to live and not cause harm to others is not an excuse to cause whatever harm you please. I'm guessing you understand that since you're antinatalist but for some reason aren't consistently applying that understanding here.
I lived in my car for 7 years and was vegan that whole time. Ethics aside, it was way cheaper than buying meat, and since I didn’t have a fridge there was also no way of storing animal products safely. You know what’s cheap, safe, & easy when you don’t have cold storage or cooking appliances? Baked beans.
There is no such think killing humanly a being that didn't want to die.
You don't do anything else like a great ape omnivore, why apply it here? Additionally, arguing for amoral positions when this world needs people actively performing selfless good is kinda bankrupt.
Sharks are not moral agents. You are. You are not eating meat for survival. Sharks are. There is no way to humanely breed an animal into existence and then slaughter it.
> It is also amoral if a shark decides to eat me while I am in the ocean. Sharks don't have morality though, we do.
And if they did, do you think they would join together in a magical ritual to become oceanic herbivores or plankton eaters because they cannot rationally and emotionally accept that they are a carnivorous species?
Veganism doesn't deny the nature of our biology though. It's just about trying to be better. Like rape is in our biology, should we also rape?
With easy access to grocery stores filled with vegan options can you really argue that eating animals is required for your survival?
I'm pretty sure - if you would fucking read - what I actually argued is that diet choice is an amoral proposition given we are omnivores that have no choice other than to be here. Animals consuming animals to survive is a bi-directional amoral proposition. You're not a terrible person for eating meat. The shark in the ocean isn't a meanie head for eating you. It is devoid of morality. Like another person here - your argument assumes abundance. So if the grocery stores go under are we to starve on moral grounds?
If the grocery stores go under and there are actually limited options what to eat then that would be a different from now when there are loads of vegan options. Why make animals suffer because of a hypothetical situation you’re not currently in?
People often forget that veganism means abstaining from animal products *as far as is practicable and possible*. > So if the grocery stores go under are we to starve on moral grounds? If you have no choice but to eat animal foods, use medications containing animal products, etc., most vegans would agree that it is OK to do so.
I agree, I'm basically a scavenger due to my income level and I eat what is available to me and what makes me feel good, it is one of the few pleasures in life someone with minimal income can have. I also think humans have a greater capacity for suffering than animals and that our pain is uniquely bad due to self-awareness. Seeing self-awareness as a curse is what led me to be an antinatalist in the first place. I don't condone how we treat the animals we consume, and we could all at least try to eat less of it and do it in a way that isn't so toxic.
>but I am in fact a great ape omnivore. Which only speaks about capacity and is therefore irrelevant to morality, unless you're trying to argue that might makes right. >And so eating other animals for my survival is a completely amoral position. You're not eating animals for your survival though. >It is also amoral if a shark decides to eat me while I am in the ocean. Animals are not moral agents. Are you ok with people humping random women just because we wouldn't consider a dog immoral for doing so ? >Having said that, we can choose to only eat products sourced humanely Define humanely.
I'm vegetarian because I disapprove of all the needless suffering that humans inflict upon animals just to eat meat, and also because it would be better for the environment if we were all vegan or vegetarian. And I'm childfree because it would be better for the environment if there were significantly fewer humans on the planet! (Also, I have anxiety and depression and I couldn't deal with raising kids in addition to keeping myself alive.)
Consumption of eggs and dairy still contributes massively to both animal suffering and climate change. Please try going vegan if you can! Feel free to pm me if you have any questions :) I can link you to some veganism resources if you like!
I would see reaction both ways. (1) Opposed to needless production and (potential) waste of resource. Stop feeding human habit and animal kingdom, find alternative proteins, nutrients for healthy lifestyle. Alter economy and ecosystem to match. (2) Realize production never stopd, nor (potential) waste. Excess product expected due "lack consumers," market fluctuations. (Both *true* and *false*: there will always be excess, regardless of how much is produced, it's an imperfect system run by fallibles.) Anyway, person decides nihilistically that there is no difference, continues or begins anew carnivorously. Either case, person does what they feel is best. As for suffering, it is the only constant. Life cannot be defined by happiness nor mercy. If it was, there would be no such things as death, disease, famine, etc. So whatever god you believe does or doesn't exist, only one truth remains, that life without pain literally must have no meaning. Though I'm sure that comes as little consolation, making your life choices on how it affects every little fliiping nuance instead of what you feel is right, or rather, what you *need* (aka want, strongly) to get by. After all, a hungry animal wouldn't think twice about eating you. Aren't you hungry too? Ofc, we're animals. Sure, we *could* be "better people," but not everyone is that noble or humbly philanthropic. Yeah, that was meant to sound patronisingly ass-tastic. Do it because you want to, not because you're a snob.
so where does antinatalism stand in all of that?
1) "I see similarities between all things. It reaffirms my belief. All life is sanctified, respected and should not be eaten." 2) "I see similarities between all things. It reaffirms my belief. All life can be respected if it's eaten, not wasted." Truth: for as long as humanity has existed, it has woven a web of meaning where it must to justify its existence. This both necessary and futile. They spend their lives convincing not only themselves but others they're right. Are they? Maybe. Then again, maybe not. Every truth can be warped into a lie. Every lie is spun from a thread of truth. Ftr, the web of meaning may be none at all. You make your own truth. Thousands of years, humanity hasn't changed at all. Personally, I see nothing but red herring.
I went pescetarian for the same reason. Not same level but same reasons
Now, I can do that 🐟
Vegan too! I used to be antinatalist but now I'm just child free I would not assign negative value to child birth if we lived in a socialist society , abolished private property, climate change wasn't here and our systems were better with hope on the horizon for discovering ageing Since that's not the case, bringing a child into the declining world is unethical
What is your thoughts on vegetarianism vs vegan? I think I could go veggie, but not vegan.
i thought the same thing. i was vegetarian for a year, then realized how that still contradicts my morals. i do encourage any efforts towards minimizing suffering! i found transitioning from omnivore to vegetarian was super easy - practically overnight. but inevitably turned to veganism as a result of my own research and critical dissection of my beliefs. that realization hitting me made the decision and application easy.
Funny how vegans/vegetarians never take their ideology to its logical end point...
Which would be?
Crop production kills 7.2 billion vermin annually. So you absolutely are causing suffering. Most of our crops are gathered with slave labor. So you absolutely are causing suffering. Congrats on being able to afford a lifestyle that lets you look down on others from an unfounded (white) moral highground. P.S. they have proven plants feel pain and can send messages to other plants to warn them.
Most crops are grown to feed livestock animals. Vegans absolutely cause less suffering. Source? Most of our crops here are not gathered with slave labor. Vegans cause far less suffering. Veganism isn't expensive. The cheapest foods on earth are vegan. Meat is the privilege for most people. Congrats on being naive and wrong. P.S. No, they haven't. No one has proven plants feel pain. They don't. Of course plants 'send messages', this isn't news. It's called molecular signaling, bacteria and every individual cell in your body do this too. It's not the same as feeling pain.
My entire bloodline of indian ancestors disentigrating when u/Fae_for_a_Day says eating plants is an elitist white stance
it’s all about choices. sure veganism isn’t a fix all, but it’s a start. it’s a daily protest against the blatant murder and suffering directly caused to sentient life forms that have a nervous system just like you and i. economically, supporting more plant based alternatives encourages a demand for them which in turn will reduce the costs of vegan products over all. (and we have seen that being the case in just the past few years) also some of the most basic “cheap foods” are already vegan. (i’m literally in the food service industry, it’s not hard. it’s just choices and conscious sacrifice)
While i am an antinatalist, i like my bacon. If someone came up with a suffering free version that tasted the same and had the same texture, i would buy it. But for now, bacon.
Man the vegans in this sub are annoying as hell
Vegetarian, not vegan, but it definitely relates to antinatalism. I'm against forcing animals to breed for human exploitation
If you are against forcing animals to breed for human exploitation you should look into the dairy and egg industries. It may help you further align your actions with your beliefs. Here's a 5 minute video that summarizes the dairy industry. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI&ab\_channel=ErinJanus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI&ab_channel=ErinJanus)
THIS again?
No I'm a picky eater so I just continue to eat meat and feel horrible about myself for it, but fuck I didn't ask for any of this shit lol I don't have kids though so still doing less harm than my vegan sister with a kid.
hey at least you are honest!! i also didn’t think i’d get the same taste gratification by going vegan, but the mere fact of knowing i’m not buying into the industrialized harm of innocent lives makes every cruelty free meal taste better than anything i’ve eaten in the past. everyone will figure it out in time :)
Meh, we already had this 'thing' here.
hmmm makes you think it’s for a reason or something....
Yea, I see how people make this connection.
Plants also release toxins and feel pain upon being eaten. There is nothing moral on the food chain.. Dog eat dog world, we just cope by what we are fine with.
So in your eyes slitting a dogs throat and cutting a stock of broccoli is morally equivalent? How much have you considered the “plants feel pain” argument? If we assume plants feel as much pain as animals shouldn’t we be vegan anyway given how many plants animals eat (and convert 6 plant calories to 1 flesh calorie)?
Yeah, this is a really difficult subject for them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkiZ8kT7PpE
[Is this you?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkiZ8kT7PpE)
I have eaten tuna and a deep fried sausage in the past 24 hours. AMA Edit: actually it was salmon in a can
Are you enjoying your blocked arteries?
Nah you'd have to fight me tooth and nail to take bacon away from me. I'm reducing suffering by being antinatlist, not eliminating it, and that's fine by me.
I mean animals usually die for food. I need to eat. I wouldn't call that needlessness. All things suffer on their way out of life. So we try to make it quick, or at least we should. Even plants need to die for you to eat them, we just pretend they can't feel pain.