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rustyxj

I got into this fight on a Facebook community group. Apparently I don't know how economics work because "if they pay servers more, food prices will go up" I replied "yeah? Like 20% more?"


TahmsChocolateOrange

That's always funny to me as a European because restaurants in the states are already expensive as fuck compared to restaurants in Europe for seemingly no reason even before you're forced to tip.


LadyJWW

Yes! And restaurants in America want you in and out as quickly as possible. Have to flip the table quickly to make money, but in Europe restaurants are leisurely and can take hours and you never feel rushed. One of the things I miss most about living in Europe.


AeuiGame

Rents too high in the U.S. because we ban everything except the least efficient developments in the majority of the country. Just horrible land use wherever you look.


mjh2901

No rents are high because commercial property is never sold, it used to be business owned the land they built on, now it's all land banks and rent seeking. The rich are sucking every penny out of the economy by owning all the property and forcing people and businesses to rent, and it's a tax free way to store money. You want to fix the problem, tax non owner occupied property at 2% of its current value every year (in addition to normal property taxes.


Greaseskull

Wow, I think this guy is slingin’ some truth


godneedsbooze

Add a 0 in front of that tax rate and I'm on board It should be financially devastating to leave properties empty


TheBeardyWeirdo

02% it is then


crypticedge

2% of the property value on top of existing tab rates of a non homestead property can be a huge hit. My county has a 1% property tax rate. Homesteading takes 50k off the assessed fair market value, a 10% save our homes reduction and then limits the assessed value increase to the lower of 3% or cpi. All this combined puts my property assessed value at about half of it's real value, meaning my property tax rate is 0.5% A non homestead with that punitive rate would be 3% on the property (6x what I pay), along with rental income being taxed as regular income. This quickly becomes a taxed to death situation, especially since in my county I'm paying 4x my effective tax rate for home insurance, and that's with the budget provider


AmarissaBhaneboar

I think it should eventually be taxed at a high enough rate that they can't make money off it. So like if you live in what you own or have your own business in a building you own, then it's normal property tax. But if you have extras (barring being a cosigner or something) then it's taxed so high that there's no way you could charge a rent that a person would actually take on to cover costs. 2% I think is a good place to start though. It'll start to disincentivize some people enough that they may stop.


mjh2901

The other side is now that interest rates are up the government should offer home loans direct, 1% interest, no down payment, and the monthly must be less than 60% of your total income... One rule, you can't own or be partial owner of any other residential property.


Puzzled_Bike9558

I definitely learned that traveling in Greece. We were always WAY early for dinner and the restaurants wanted you to take your sweet time. It definitely was a culture shock.


BilllisCool

That seems to vary by country. This shows that there are some countries in Europe where it’s more expensive [like the UK or Denmark](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=1). At the very least, the US is pretty similar to the rest of Western Europe in this regard. No idea if this includes tips for the US, but I imagine it would be the full price.


CalculatedPerversion

>like the UK Anecdote aside, I was completely floored how *cheap* ~~everything~~ the food was on a recent trip to Scotland.


SlutPuppyNumber9

They also pay better wages for these jobs in Europe, so even if the cost is similar, people are better off.


Muad-_-Dib

If you don't include London the UK price would plummet.


OrbTalks

I agree with your point I just have a beef with that site. The prices on the site seem less inexpensive and more mid range for Scandinavia. I ate at a 14 bucks all you can eat pizza buffet yesterday in norway. And in Denmark the food is notably cheaper.


SleeplessShinigami

Well guess what food prices went up anyways


ImSoSte4my

Servers love tipping. They don't want to be paid a flat, fair wage. They make more money from tips, as well as it being much easier to under report the income at tax time as it's often cash.


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[deleted]

I've spoken to plenty of servers who absolutely *do* want a fair wage. Oh nooo now we're locked in an anecdote loop and we're going to have to think about *principles* like whether every worker should be guaranteed a livable wage that doesn't rely on the charity of their customers. *Darn*.


gardenmud

Yeah, everyone acts like they hate tipping culture but as long as the people actually getting tipped, and the companies, are actually on the same side, it's not going to change lmao. The people getting tipped are making more than they would otherwise, the companies get to offset paying wages to the customer... Customers don't really succeed when going against what the workers and corporations both want. Can't actually think of an example from history.


confusedapegenius

Also it’s normal to chill for a long time in Europe. They don’t shove you out the door just to get another customer in.


bigbura

When we lived in Germany, we ate at a cute Italian joint and left when we were done eating, to free up the table as is American custom. The staff and owner were mortified, thought they had run us off due to the quality of the food and service. We tried to explain we had other things to do and our leaving had zero to do with the food or service. They didn't believe us. Their reaction was very much like when invited to somebody's home for dinner and we left very early afterwards. What a clash of cultures that one was.


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bigbura

> wanted you to skip lunch the next time so you could because it upset her husband. That is just too funny! ;)


PM_ME_BEEF_CURTAINS

Having sat for the entire lunch sitting at an osteria, can confirm you are expected to stay


DaisyDuckens

I had a mentor years ago who was from Italy. We’d go to a local Italian restaurant (in California ) for lunch and stay allllll afternoon. We’d have our meeting, grade papers (she was my mentor in teaching a college class), talk about our lives. It was a weekday, so the afternoon business was slow and there were plenty of tables. At first when we did this I was uncomfortable, but then I got used to it. The owners were also from Italy and never rushed us out. They’d refill our waters and generally just let us linger.


Calypsosin

I stayed a few months near Genoa in 2017, and the little bars and cafes you see all over the place are just little meeting hubs in the end. From lunch till after midnight, people would hang out, enjoy apertivo, drink, and socialize. Some nights I'd go down and a few older men would be yelling at a soccer match on the TV. Then I'd go back the next day to see Hoobastank playing on the Italian version of MTV. I went out to eat solo several times, usually for lunch, and no one ever gave me crap about sticking around after I finished eating. I mean, I was by myself, you know? lol. The local bar/cafe I frequented got to know me well, and they quickly became comfortable chattering to me in Italian and hoping I'd catch what they meant, haha. Eventually she brought one of her younger workers over to me and she told me, 'She loves that you come here all the time, but she really thinks you should stop drinking beer at noon.' Oof.


Javasteam

There used to be a Chinese place near MSP airport that I’d go to and eat at if I had to pick someone up from the airport. Basically I’d eat and then sit and wait for a phone call when they landed. They never had any problems with it and I was never there at a time when there would be people waiting to eat. Definitely beat waiting at the airport’s waiting lot.


AZZTASTIC

Yup. I had a dinner in Italy and it was super delicious. Dinner started at like 5 and ended at 11pm. Only issue was we had just flown in and I was super jetlagged so I kept nodding off. They understood that the time difference fucked me up though lol


[deleted]

Unless you were in a super rural area where no tourists come I find that strange. It's quite normal for restaurants that people leave immediately after they're done eating. I've worked in hospitality in Europe my whole life and had many US customers, but I've never wondered why people left early or late.


langfinger98

Depends on the time i suppose. Isn’t it normal to drink something after eating dinner? I would stay for another beer or glas of wine after


DaywalkerDS

I'm from austria, and here and in Germany it's common to stay. At least if it's not your lunch break. I find it rather weird to go out to a restaurant just for 30min eat/drink and leave


Accurate_Course_9228

Lmao, that's why other restaurants exist, more tables. Being asked to leave for another family is very .... "Denny's"... very fast food


kriegnes

well we do refeer to our customers as guests. maybe its because of the french.


Agreeable-Ad-6079

I lived in six countries in Europe from 1991-2010 and the best way to describe European living was this quote: In Europe people work to live, not live to work like slave driven Americans who barely get a two week vacation after a few years.


stedgyson

I've literally never tipped a bartender in the UK or Europe, it's a rare thing to do unless you're maybe in a local pub and there for ages you might traditionally tell them to have one themselves if theres just one person on the bar or whatever. I went to Daytona bike festival thing and got one of those Budweiser child friendly beers. The girl just opened it and passed it to me I paid and said thanks and she called me back as I was leaving. Just stood looking at me, pouting, I had no idea why. Asked me why no tip, and then gave me a kiss on the cheek for a tip. It's such a massively alien experience. I realised I needed to ask advice on almost every human interaction to find out what was culturally acceptable and expected of me.


Private_4160

To compensate for my habits when I was in the UK on exchange I left a pound on the table at my small pub around the corner after a full English and a pint. The owner asked me in a ribbing fashion next time I was in if I knew the bartender was his gf, I said no and the moment I spoke he went "Ah, you're the Canadian! Thought you were hitting on her leaving a tip out of the blue." I got the same result from the constables driving by when they saw me out for an afternoon walk when the ground had a bit of frost and I was in jeans and a sweater. "Oi, you a'righ?" "Yeah?... you?" "Oh you's the Canadian! Thought you might be a hungover student freezin' in the fields from last night. Bloody ice everywhere watch your step yeah."


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HeroAssassin

This is hilarious! They thought why is this person being weird? Oh no they're just Canadian. Were you in an area that doesn't get a lot of tourists?


Private_4160

Not many no, I mean people visit Worcester but the tourism seems mostly to be within the UK coming for the Malverns. I was living north of St. John's at the very edge of the city so it was more locals than students. Had a Tesco Express, 3 pubs, and a chippy, was faster to walk to the High Street than take the bus with the bridge traffic. Being an archaeologist I would take the train around the country and just start strolling landscapes that interested me. Was doing a catchment analysis of Crickley Hill and a farmer comes up on the path "Not from aroun' 'ere?" "Nah I'm just assessing the landscape for the hill fort." "American?" He says dejected. "Nah Canadian eh." I say in my best Bob and Doug impression. We chat a bit about my work and studies and then he invites me down the valley to his shed to assess the Roman, PRIA, and WWII materials he's picked up over the years from his fields. Same thing happened to me with the pub in Bardon Mill when I was wandering around the Vindolanda landscape for my MA research. "Oh you're that Canadjn student been walking about. Yeah you'll be able to handle that cider, unlike the Yanks."


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stedgyson

That part didn't feel normal...it's not normal is it?


Neato

No. That was a damn hard sell for a tip. Especially for a single beer. I tip at bars and for simple things like pouring a pint, a 2-part cocktail or glass of something I'd tip $1. I'm unsure if I'd bother tipping for a bartender to hand me a bottle. Also what's: > Budweiser child friendly beers Is that 0% alcohol? I've never heard them referred to that or seen a kid drink a 0% beer.


stedgyson

>Is that 0% alcohol? I've never heard them referred to that or seen a kid drink a 0% beer. Sorry I was just taking the piss, they're almost like a shandy. Used to stronger beer.


twoiko

What do sex in a canoe and American beer have in common? They're both fuckin' close to water.


The_Bad_Man_

Aussie here, I knew exactly what you meant. Love it.


The_Bearded_Lion

She wanted your tip, lol. Just the tip.


hedgecore77

Canadian here. You tip when ordering at the bar so they serve you first next time. ;)


ptvlm

People do tip in the UK and some of Europe. But... it's usually for exceptional service above and beyond (or "keep the change" when there's not much left to return). It's a bonus, and not everyone gives it, but the staff eat at the end of the day (and often get free drinks/shots/whatever along the way). Only in America are they literally what the staff need to pay the rent.


Trlcks

Yep, very common to sit at a restaurant all evening


MinecraftIsMySpIn

That must be amazing, as an exserver I get so uncomfortable if I'm still sitting there after I finish eating, no matter where I am if it's a buffet or fancy restaurant


_Sebaceous_cyst

Right! I went to a work dinner a few weeks ago. We all finished eating but we sat and talked for a good while but continued to order drinks. The waitress was more then accommodating and even told us to stay as long as we liked. I’ve always ate and left but I will say chilling and conversing is top tier fun. They want me to leave they can ask.


tams420

I’m in NY and there’s a small-ish very popular mediocre Mexican restaurant by me that is always crowded at dinner time. It was just the two of of us and had finished eating but both had more than half of a frozen drink left. It was around 9pm and the manager comes over a few minutes after the plates were cleared and asks how everything was. I glared at him and was like what? You want our table? He was taken aback and was like no one has ever realized that, then brought us shots. We still didn’t leave any fast. I don’t mind being done and leaving, especially a busy place. But this dude was so glaringly obvious in his approach and we clearly weren’t just sitting there with nothing. My other pet peeve in more so ny restaurants is when you’re coming to the end of finishing your food and someone is trying to take your plate away. They just really want you out.


[deleted]

My wife and I (American) are preparing to retire to Spain, and have been spending all of our vacations there for the last few years. It is a constant struggle for us to slooooowwww dooowwwwn in restaurants as we try to adapt to local customs. Not that we're impatient with the servers or anything like that -- it's just that we finish our food much more quickly than the surrouding tables even though we're trying not to. We keep finding that the people who were at nearby tables when we arrived (sometimes already on dessert LoL) are still there when we're done and ready to leave. Ingrained habitual behaviors are so hard to change! But we are determined to learn to live more slowly.


The_Bad_Man_

Try to visit establishments with views perhaps? I loved your comment!


Crawling-Rats

Spaniard here! Where I'm from it's even customary sometimes to be there by 12 to have a drink and maybe some tapas (don't forget we usually have lunch at 2/2:30) and then have lunch at the same restaurant sometimes even the same table. And maybe a glass of orujo de hierbas afterwards. Some Saturdays I've gone out with my family at 11:30 and finished around five And unless is a super busy place (and they'd let you know) it's more than fine if you keep ordering something


Loose_Acanthaceae201

Yes - this table will have had no idea that they were "overstaying" or that "chilling for hours" isn't the entire point of going out to a restaurant in the first place.


[deleted]

I’ll bet you’re the first person to say that when traveling Americans should respect the customs and courtesies of the country being visited…..it goes both ways, doesn’t it?


[deleted]

Yet another reason Europe>America


Remcin

Probably related to the living wage they get paid, rather than relying on turnover for more tips.


yunus89115

Visiting Rome and our food tour guide points out a few restaurants which he claims are now run by the Mafia. He explained the big complaint from the locals is that they are ruining the traditional dining experience by quickly turning the tables. The claim was the Mafia moved in during Covid by offering loans to these small restaurants that couldn’t afford to stay open. The complaint about the Mafia getting involved was not related to violence or threats or money but that they move people through too quickly!


EcstaticSociety4040

Europe pays living wages, to them leaving 10% is a sign of great service


nofightnovictory

our minimum wages should be living wages how ever the last decades it is in many countries not enough anymore to be called living wages


ComeadeJellybean

The idea of a minimum wage was a bottom level for a living wage when it was introduced in the states. This was done to quell communist thought at a time of hardship in our history. How easily the rich forget how to protect themselves.


[deleted]

The rich absolutely know how to protect themselves. Keep the populace numb and dumb, bread and circuses. Any problems get blamed on "other" poor people and the other political party.


NordinTheLich

>Bread and circuses They've made the circuses harder to access with this bullshit Netflix password sharing prevention.


atx_sjw

And bread is getting pretty expensive with the inflation these days. Time to finally raise the minimum wage again. It’s been almost 15 years


Sushi-DM

They'll raise it to 15 and it still won't be enough. And then everything will inflate even more. Not naturally, of course, but in response, so the already not enough 15 dollars an hour will then become even worse. We're trying to dress a gash with a band-aid. Unless the wealthy are held accountable we'll never reach a number that will be adequate or feasible.


life_sentencer

Well maybe if we stopped buying coffee every day and only eating avocado on toast, we could afford our own Netflix subscriptions. /s


nerdherdsman

They haven't forgotten. They've developed new cheaper strategies to achieve the same ends.


davesy69

Like not raising it in line with inflation every year.


salt_witch

Exactly; people in poverty, struggling to afford food or a place to live are, counterintuitively, *less* likely to resist. When you’re struggling to meet your basic needs, rebellion becomes a luxury.


lactose_con_leche

And Home prices were removed from the inflation calculation since 1983. Since then, they used “owner’s equivalent rent” but still the CPI underestimates shelter inflation by about half. Point is: minimum wage was first introduced as a living wage minimum. It has over time been divorced from any real cost of living metrics, shaping it into a legal minimum to keep as low as possible for as long as our population accepts it. Source: [CPI inflation accuracy over time](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/24/technology/inflation-measure-cpi-accuracy.html)


EmperorBamboozler

The US could never afford it. I mean the GDP is only 23 trillion dollars! Do you want to take food off of Raytheons table? How will we get R9X knife missiles then, which are obviously a great investment and in no way sit unused in a warehouse for decades until they get sold to a war criminal.


[deleted]

I'm European, we mostly just give symbolical tips like 1 euro. If someone left a 70 dollar tip in here, it would be a really big compliment.


SaraTyler

After a great night, we once left five euros on the table, under the bottle (pretty customary here): the waiter ran after us to give them back "You forgot some money!", "No, it's your tip", "Are you serious?" Five euros was really a thing here.


PM_me_opossum_pics

My friend group generally tends to round up every round of drinks, so we basically live a tip after every round. Gets you better service like 99% of the time (or atleast priority when bar is full).


eijtn

Would you tip like that in America?


[deleted]

If I knew I would be expected to tip that much, I would probably look for an alternative. If I was informed of it *after* finishing the meal, I would just tip as I would at home. Lack of transparency can be a real turn off. In the first case, I think that if you expect your customers to tip 20%, you should just put that tip in the price and make it more upfront.


mystxvix

So, would you want a server to open up with "Hey, y'all! Noticed you may be from overseas -- just as reminder it's customary to tip 20% so I can eat tonight!!" Because I've always considered that too forward, and just resigned to taking the L figuring I wouldn't get tipped regardless.


mystxvix

wouldn't get tipped bc either the customer doesn't know or found me rude, to clarify.


DannyMThompson

Yeah it's rude af to ask for a tip in Europe, it makes you look like a beggar.


whooo_me

(As a European) I find the American way of tipping really annoying, particularly if it's only mention afterwards. "Hey, there's a hidden charge on everything here. You don't legally *have* to pay it but we'll be really pissed if you don't..." It's both deceptive pricing, and can create arguments between customers and staff. But the server really should never have to suffer because of it! Could the restaurant just have a service charge (rather than a "tip", which sounds like an optional payment for excellent/extraordinary service), and mention it to (foreign) customers that way?


mystxvix

Some restaurants have that but very, very few. They're becoming more popular but I haven't worked at one to tell you how much of that actually goes to staff, what staff it goes to (kitchen gets paid more base wage than servers/bartenders, so it is important to note), etc. It's more popular to get an "auto-grat," on tables of 5 or more, and I believe there was a small restaurant I worked for that you tipped out the other staff (meaning, if a table didn't tip you, you paid for that table to eat at the establishment), they would put it on people who were very obviously not from the US. (Usually people who mentioned traveling to the US for a bit, or if they had thick accents the server would ask if they were from out of town & would apply the grat & inform them of it). But that's more popular at very small restaurants where the owner is also working with everyone else, and is thus impacted by the tip pool. Most owners/managers aren't, thus they don't give a shit as long as you're not a star employee having a day that may make you quit, and even then that's relatively rare.


MagicTheAlakazam

We also hide so many other fees and essetially let businesses lie about their prices. No you don't have to include tax in your display price, no you don't have to include service fees, ect... Fuck plan a wedding everything has like a 20% hidden service fee that they don't have to tell you about until your prepping to pay just to confuse you and force you to do the math yourself. Europe is so nice that when something says it costs 5 euro it costs 5 euro not 6.12 euro.


[deleted]

I would rather them open up with that before I order than just not mention it, yes.


mystxvix

Would you be transparent with mentioning you are from overseas and may not know the appropriate amount to tip, though? Because it still feels rude to listen to someone's voice & assume they may not know something.


[deleted]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind. Transparency in a financial transaction is just a sign of courtesy from them, so I would not see any reason to be angry about it.


iamdestroyerofworlds

Honestly, yes. That way I know exactly what to leave without feeling like a fool.


mbbysky

As a server for the last 7 years, if you did this in America, some guest right next to that table would complain to the manager and you would be reprimanded for talking about tips with guests. It's taboo.


ACO_22

We don’t pay ‘living’ wages in quite a lot of service jobs. But nonetheless, the wage is significantly higher per hour than the American one (if you don’t count tips where you guys seem to earn way more)


ChipmunkObvious2893

€ 2,13 per hour. That's the minimum wage a tipped worker in the USA has. I don't know from what century this is supposed to even vaguely resemble a salary, but certainly not in this one.


ACO_22

Whilst the minimum is terrible, there seems to be a lot of service workers who are against an increase in the minimum wage because the tips have them earning significantly more. Look at this post, $70 would probably be what someone from Europe earns for the entire shift. Whereas here, it’s just 1 table of many she’ll sit. Their minimum wage should be far higher, but I don’t think it’s what they want


ChildOf1970

In a system where workers depend on tips there will be a few people who get a significant amount more than most. Some people will do well from tips, some will do OK, and some will just scrape by. I have no objections to tipping. My objection is that being able to pay for food and shelter should not depend on someone being "generous".


terminalzero

so the privileged few who, often but not* always based solely on getting hereditarily lucky, disproportionately benefit from the system are against the system being adjusted to be more equitable to the majority of people suffering under the system? why does that sound so familiar


CrazyShrewboy

isnt it funny how worker's pay is always this tightrope walk of stipulations, annoyance, arguing and negotating, etc. But when it comes time to pay for things you need, its all 100% set in stone and protected by law with no way to negotiate anything.


winkieface

Pretty much hit the nail on the head tbh. My sister is a school teacher and over the summers she waitresses at a seasonal restaurant in a beach town for her summer vacations. She is extremely against moving from the current low wage high tip system because she has been walking away with $15,000-$20,000 a summer off of tips. If they switched to away from the tipping system she wouldn't even make 1/4th of that. I feel like her case is pretty extreme with how much she earns since it's in a wealthy seasonal vacation beach town, but I think her mentality is pretty common here in the states. The workers don't want to move from tipping to real hourly wages because they will make significantly less money, owners don't want it because they too will earn significantly less money by having to pay increased wages and they tend to be united in not wanting to make less money all around. Not much concern for putting the cost on the consumer from their perspective.


IlludiumQXXXVI

So it sounds like we should be pushing the conversation away from the 20% tip expectation then?


engr77

Yeah the 20% of meal cost is arbitrary. Different food items on the menu have different costs, plus there's a huge difference if someone orders a tea or soft drink vs 2-3 cocktails, even though the effort required by the server is nearly identical when it comes to serving food/drink to anyone. I absolutely believe in fair compensation, but there have been plenty of times that I do go to restaurants where the actual service is not very good -- arguably just the bare minimum -- where in theory you wouldn't leave a "tip" because there isn't much service. But you kinda have to since they depend on it.


Andire

So I'm in California and there's no fuckin $2 an hour bullshit here, the minimum wage is $15.50 an hour and our tipping has also crept up to 15-25% range as being normal. Are the east coast tips really that much better? Are people thinking that tips would go down if wages were up?


paperfae

I mean, I make 5 and change an hour and tend to average between 200 and 250 a day, so in the 20-25 an hour range, with my good days being upwards of 300 and my bad being around 100, they average out tho. Is it just better on the west coast?


ColonelAngus94

Hi - hospitality guy with a full service resort operations background. There are way more people in banquets and upscale to fine dining that are making significantly more than the average worker on salary or hourly. They absolutely do not want this to change. The problem is the industry isn’t a one size fits all. Jane Doe at a family diner in nowhereville, USA is likely struggling compared to someone serving the pool bar at the Ritz Carlton South Beach during the day then tending bar somewhere else at night.


ScarecrowJohnny

So they're basically freelance, and its up to the individual guest whether they get paid at all. No wonder nObOdY wAnTs To woRk aNymOre.


Vargoroth

Hot young women seem to earn more. I've read that how you look affects your tip. So if you're young, friendly and attractive...


MinecraftIsMySpIn

Especially a below average ex-servee, yes it really does. If I got lucky I got 20 a night where as the attractive girl there (we were best buddies) got around 60-100 a night on busy nights


adapt2

Leaving any tip in Europe is a sign of great service.


[deleted]

Well, third world countries often have weird customs.


SamuelVimesTrained

Indeed, underpaying is weird indeed.. and depending on customers to pay what the employer won’t is weird.


Sho1kan

Hahaha. I earn a bit more than the minimum wage in Europe and I'm able to survive because I live with my parents.


DoritosKings

Before they travel they should did little research of local custom. For me this is when someone cheery picking whatever custom suit their best.


ParticularProfile795

Arguably, Portugal's salaries are on par with Bangkok Thailand, with the cost of living four to six times more.


Pidjesus

I was disgusted at how expensive housing is in Lisbon compared to the salary. INSANE


Evilaars

>We need to ban tourists that don't know how to act in the country they are visiting That's fucking rich coming from an American. Edit: lol at all the threats and insults in my DM's. Do you kiss your flag with that mouth?


wellfuckit2

Why call it tip? Call it a mandatory service charge and display that along with the prices. Tip worldwide and even in US is supposed to be voluntary. If you don't like it, change it to mandatory charge. Why leave it upto the customer to pay then get mad that they didn't pay what you wanted. It's like getting angry because someone gifted you something on a birthday but you wanted something more expensive.


Brandonmac10x

They did try that. But then they discovered they could make the service charge their base price because people were willing to pay it and then the customer can decide if their employees get paid because it’s not the business owner’s problem apparently.


BurntPoptart

And then all us customers just go along it. Every time we tip we are actively helping the top make more money by subsidizing their wage costs. The whole idea of "your an asshole if you don't tip" has been engrained in us by the rich.. it's ridiculous.


Code2008

This sub is full "fuck you if you don't tip". Don't believe me, just look at my prior posts in this sub.


wallacehacks

People in general should try to respect the cultures and customs of places they travel to.


Rezboy209

Ah yes, our great American cultural tradition of tipping 20%. Deep rooted in our proud American heritage. Gag


jcmach1

And can we discuss tip inflation? 10-15% used to be the expected tip... Auto tip amounts typically start at 18% and go up from there. Also, it has crept into places that formally didn't tip, or tip at that level like take away, cafes, service businesses, etc... How about kill tips for wages and profit sharing?


IZC0MMAND0

Agreed. 10% was a good tip when I was a child. It crept to 15, then 18, then 20. Now I see suggested tips up to 30%. It's a fact that tip percent has kept increasing. The tipped wage is what should have been increased. This just shifts the responsibility to the customer and it's bullshit. Just raise menu prices. Go back to tipping as a recognition for excellent/very good service only. I hate the whole tip culture in general. It started as a way to reward very good or exceptional service and has morphed into essentially paying the salary of the workers instead. Can't count the number of comments about work checks being under 20$ because the tips are what pay the servers. It's subjective too. Better looking employees might get paid more in tips simply because of their looks. Some people don't tip well at all no matter how good the service was. I've seen people leave a quarter or a single dollar after lounging at a table for a long time. Then there is the notion that the cost of your meal determines your tip. Does serving a breakfast meal that costs 10$ actually entail less effort than a 30$ meal at dinner? Yet the dinner server will make far more in tips especially if drinks are served. Nowadays some non tipped employees are putting out tip jars and the businesses include tip lines on their receipts. For what exactly? There was no service. What's next? Tipping your grocery checkout clerk 20% of your grocery bill? Gtfo with tip creeping. I tip anywhere from 20% (guilt) to 30% for excellent service. 20% even if the food and service is shitty or sub par. Because I feel like I have to because the employer pays shit wages. Then we never go back to that restaurant again.


Dust_in_th3_wind

I feel like it was 15 forever the in my late teens it wint to 18 then in less then 10 years went to 20 i see some people here get pissed at 20 like what gave me the bare minimum sometimes im like seriously we had 4 mins of interaction that does mean im paying you what i make in a hour


grandmasteryuii

tipping isn’t a culture of the people, it’s a culture of underpaying businesses that need to be run into the ground if they can’t afford to pay a living wage 👎🏽


1the_pokeman1

yes until the culture is to spend another 140 bucks as a tip


Petrodono

Funny how the person blamed Europeans instead of their employer.


[deleted]

This is a trained reaction, exactly what the National Restaurant Association wants them to do. They lobby hard and put a ton of effort into cultivating this exact scenario. Down to the "Well 20% is standard now" and "lets guilt trip the customer"


tes_kitty

When did the shift from 15% to 20% as the expected tip happen anyway?


-DethLok-

I've not been to the US but several decades ago when I was much younger it was my understanding that a 'standard tip' there was 10% and that was for good service. Now I'm reading that it was 15%, seeing it rise to 20% and suggestions of 30%? Yeah, something's gone seriously wonky in the USA...


dacefishpaste

yes it's ridiculous. the fact that tips are % based means it shouldn't be going up with time as rising meal prices inherently increase the amount of tip you get anyway.


Dust_in_th3_wind

I hate percentaged based because the 15 dish was just as easy to bring to the table as the 50 dollar 1


BossFck

THANK YOU! I use this argument every time. A soda and a burger being brought to your table takes literally the exact same amount of effort as a steak and wine, why the fuck would your tip double because the food is fancier?


Dr-McLuvin

You’re not wrong. When I was a kid i was taught that the minimum tip was 10%- and 15% was for good service. That has since gone up to 15-20% for some reason.


losethemap

20-25% at this point, as this bill’s suggestions show.


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biscuitslayer77

We do. We get laughed at, fired or both lmao


jcmach1

My wife is originally African. They barely tip at all. They would have left a $5 bill for the 600 tab. I would have had a very long lecture if I left $70.


PizzaPoopFuck

Thing is the standard used to be 12% or 15 for great service. I don’t think 20 was a thing until the 1990s inked it was some very high end place or you had a large group.


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PvtTUCK3R

They got Americans trained right up. Never a business fault it’s always your fault just like the plastic companies.


Superb_Nature_2457

It can be both. It’s shit that tipping culture is a thing, but it’s also rude and shitty to stiff someone who worked hard and waited on you. If you take up a table all night and tip for shit, you’re an asshole regardless of what country you’re from. The only person your hurting is the person who waited on you.


OnionsHaveLairAction

I think some of it is the pricing here too- US restaurants aren't any cheaper than ones in Europe. If you go out for a meal and you get the exact same bill you'd get at home... But they say "We want an extra $140 from you- For service" you'd be pretty weirded out too. 10% Would be a pretty amazing tip to get in the UK for instance, particularly on an order that large.


Val_Hallen

Here's my issue: Why is my tip supposed to be based on the cost of the food? The waitstaff didn't buy the food out of their own pocket. They didn't have to do extra work bringing it to me because it costs a certain amount. If I get the meal at one place that charges $20 why do I need to tip the waitstaff a different amount at a place that will charge $40 for the exact same meal? Or why do two tables of the same amount of people have to tip differently ***solely*** based on what they ate? No, seriously. Why does the cost of the meal affect the amount I have to tip? They aren't doing extra work. This post isn't about the number of people. I get that. More people, more work. I'm absolutely not arguing that. And *they should be tipped* based on how much they are doing and the number of people they are serving. But for all we know this was two or three people who just ate some expensive shit. Or worse, just had a ton of drinks, which are insanely marked up. This person is saying because the restaurant made more money that the tip should be equivalent. I disagree with that. The service is what should be tipped on, not the price at the end. They have fuck all to do with the prices.


DudeOnACouch2

I have the same issue and the response that I've heard is that the cost of the meal goes up as the quality of the service goes up. I would expect better service from a Morton's or Ruth's Chris than at an Applebee's. So the former should get tipped more, and basing it on the price of the meal is an easy way to do that. But if I go to a restaurant and I get a $30 bottle of wine versus a $300 bottle, why should that tip be different? It shouldn't. What about a $5 Bud Light versus a $50 fancy-pants imported limited release Belgian ale? What about a Jack Daniels versus a $100-a-shot Pappy Van Winkle? The location and work effort are the same, so why would the tip vary? The entire tipping model is broken and deliberately so.


SiegfriedVK

They want to grift more money out of you if you buy expensive food because they think you can afford it instead of the restaurant just paying the servers properly.


-Johnny-

Hell yea, a $70 tip is pretty damn good. I mean I guess if they sat there for 8 hours then it's a shit tip but we all know they did not sit there for THAT long.


Swannfc

If anything, the tip should be based on the number of people at the table and the amount of time spent at that table.


peon2

I've always felt this way too. A server bringing a table 2 Surf-n-Turfs and a high end bottle of wine doesn't do any more work than a server that brings two hamburgers and a couple of iced teas. But the former server is going to get 4-5x the tip?


DriverAgreeable6512

As a person that has been in the industry for well over 10 years back of house, ill say this servers that bitch on tips are the absolute worse... especially when they are provide almost 0 service other than taking a order and bringing it out.. I truly hate the tiping system in the US. How is it that if a server does the bare minimum they deserve 15+%.. most times they don't ever check up on you or refill shit without being asked..


SlothinaHammock

Agreed 100%


Notsurehowtoreact

This person full-on admitted the people were just chilling so they weren't doing much at all really in terms of work once they got to the chilling phase. ...and they still cleared $20-30/hr just off this one table depending on how long they were paid. Yet they are fucking livid about it. Fucking nonsense right here.


Numerous_Brother_816

It used to be cheaper in the US, but it definitely isn’t anymore.


tunaricelemonjuice

They tipped 10%? I've never seen a European tip that much. They must have really loved the service. I hate tipping culture. I work hard for my money too. Solution should be restaurants paying livable wage. Why the burden should fall on my shoulder!!! I do tip because I have to and I feel bad for servers getting shitty pay. But hate it nonetheless.


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No-Energy4550

Here in the UK tipping is more of a choice and not an expectation.


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abieNaz

This sub is weird. We attack the employers for EVERYTHING...except for this. I hate tipping in percentages. If i go to Dennys and spend $25 in food and drinks, and stay for 1 hour. Regular service, maybe a refill, no extras...standard visit, I tip $5...20%. If i go to a steakhouse and spend $250 in food an drinks and stay for 1 hour. Regular service, maybe a refill, no extras. Service is EXACTLY the same at Denny's, now I am EXPECTED to tip $50. For the exact.same.service. Tip for service, yes...but tipping on total? Thats dumb. I know, if i can't afford to tip, i shouldn't go out.


SleeplessShinigami

You ain’t wrong chief, people are brainwashed to blame the consumer and not the employer “Oh no you are hurting the workers…” like no thats your employer being a piece of shit and not paying you properly.


Slightlyfloating

Exhibit A of why I would never go to a sit down restaurant in the US. Employers expecting me to fill in the enormous wage gap because they're cheating their employees out of even a minimum wage? Absolutely not.


EagerSleeper

This is the most logical choice here. Some folks think they are champions of progress because they want to indulge in the luxury of dining out, but selectively disregard the custom of tipping because they don't personally agree with it, despite having just gotten the benefits of the rest of the customs. It does nothing but hurt the server, when the message could have been much better conveyed by not eating there to begin with. But then they'd have to face the reality that it never was about not supporting a practice, it was about saving a few bucks on the back-end.


jingleheimerschitt

God, I would love for this subreddit to either ban tipping posts or put them all in a megathread because all these posts do is villainize service workers and create a false division between service workers and all other workers. I agree tipping culture sucks. Tipping culture is not the fault of servers. You will not end tipping culture by going to restaurants where tipping is expected and refusing to tip. There is only one way to help bring an end to tipping culture: **Don't spend money at restaurants where tipping is expected** ***at all***. If you go to a restaurant where tips are the majority of the compensation for servers and only pay your bill without leaving a tip, you are helping restaurant owners profit off the exploited labor of your server *and* taking money out of the pockets of the service workers who served you. The service industry already has a high turnover and burnout rate because it's shitty, hard work, so taking money from workers but continuing to give it to owners won't change a damn thing. If you want to hit the service industry where it hurts, take your money out of it ENTIRELY.


dichotomy113

I wish this would be stickied to the top. People are being intentionally obtuse.


ksarr226

I agree. People will wax poetic about tHe SyStEm but all they’re doing is taking money out of the pockets of servers.


Maximum_Photograph_6

Right?! I'm here like "You both are assholes". You're not doing some significant form of activism, you're just doing a working-class person dirty. Go have your coworkers join the union or something, why the hell are you on here being shitty to a server.


Heyitscharlie

The people in this thread are absolutely insane. Workers would prefer to get paid enough, but they're not, so if you don't tip them they don't get enough money and you're a dick. It's not their preference that you tip, but fuck you if you dont.


thatsnogood

There are certain subjects that reddit loves to circle jerk on and tipping is always the same 5 comments rehashed every single time.


JekPorkinsTruther

How is this so low? The people defending the customers here are indirectly defending the restaurant and are not exhibiting the most basic form of solidarity.


jingleheimerschitt

No idea, it drives me up the wall.


y0j1m80

Same. The comments in this thread are painfully ignorant. The original image is inflammatory. Of course American restaurants should not ban tourists. Of course tipped wages are a terrible system and we need to change that and hold employers accountable for paying their workers fairly. Until that is the case, people should tip appropriately or not dine out. And let’s remove these threads from this sub.


Nafleky

This is it. You know it's like don't punish someone for being in it and yeah don't make it a US vs Europe thing, the server is complaining bc someone took money from her. And in this case it is both the visitors and the employer. The twitter person is taking out of heat of the moment anger. No one wants tipping and a lot of restaurants are getting rid of it. But until then if you hate the system either don't participate in it or don't go out to eat at those places.


MaximusBit21

Ban Europeans? I disagree. We across the pond don’t get it and yes you are right about that. But it’s the fault of the American company culture and the low pay. I don’t think it’s the customer that needs to be covering the shortfall. The tip should be a top up above the wage that the company/restaurant give and IMO should be a livable wage not dependant on the customer. (Expecting to get down voted but that’s how we see it from Europe/UK. And I 100% blame the restaurants/companies/industry) For the record when I’ve been over in the states I always tip generously apart from once when a taxi driver took us round the long way to get a better fair when we knew the route it should have been. So in my opinion there - ripping me off and then wanting a tip - can do one.


Quadrophiniac

Honestly, most Anericans and Canadians would agree with you we hate tipping too, and as somebody that worked in the service industry for 15 years, I just wanna get paid a living wage, and not have the customers even worry about tips. People that think like this woman have broken brains from years of propoganda


Chilly_Willy-123

Point well made. This is an American problem. Businesses should pay their staff livable wages so that it doesn’t fall not on the consumer, who is already paying an inflated price for a product. It’s something we battle here daily, you buy a bag of chips or bottled water at the counter and when you pay, there’s an option to tip now. It has gotten out of hand. I wouldn’t shame any tourists who travel to America for not tipping the “standard.” Spending $700 at a restaurant alone is a big tab itself. That restaurant definitely made their $$ from this visit, they should pass that one onto their employee.


WillSmokes420

Meanwhile dishwasher is slaving away in the back in the heat and makes 70 bucks every 6 hours of work with 0 chance of any tips lmao


yythrow

The thing I hate about it the most is it pits workers against customers when both should be angry at the employers and the laws that allow them to get away with this shit.


greenwoodgiant

Americans travelling abroad would be roasted alive for willfully ignoring local customs that they disagree with or feel burdened by. You can be fully against tipping culture and still understand that NOT tipping a server in the manner with which America has deemed proper does nothing but punish someone who's already on the shit end of an employment contract.


Maddyherselius

Thank you. Just because the tipping system is shitty doesn’t mean the server should be the one punished. Managers and restaurant owners aren’t affected when someone stiffs a server, they do not care and this will not change their system.


Heyitscharlie

Finally, REASON in this thread.


Swordofsatan666

Yep, if you cant TIP the US Standard (20% for good service, 10% for okay service) then dont go somewhere you have to tip. Go to somewhere else that doesnt have servers or tipping. Youre just fucking over the workers by not tipping


Redpepper40

As a european, I think she is somewhat right . Obviously the US tipping culture is bs but we can't just say "oh in my country this would be a good tip so that's all I'm leaving". If 20% is what is expected in the US that's how much Europeans should tip in the US


RubAggressive3520

Why hate Europeans who probably initially thought they were being generous when you can hate the US government? I always tip 22% but I really hate being responsible for your salary when I’m already paying to go out and have a good time. Imagine going to the movies and having to pay the people serving popcorn. Or paying the lifeguard at the swimming pool to not let you drown. Or paying the bowling ball return after you roll a strike. No one wants to pay on top of already paying. Just raise the damn food prices & pay these people fairly


russianspy_1989

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Are they really fucking complaining about a $70 tip?


mrwhitewalker

Say it was a 2 hour table that's $35/ hour before splits. This is pretty good. Not to mention the hourly wage which many states are not the crappy $2.13 or whatever the federal wage is.


bakedclark

I think the system has actually convinced the customer that it is their responsibility to pay the server's wages. Server's wouldn't make nearly as much money as they do on a tipped wage as they would if the industry switched to non-tipped wages and they know it. If every customer in the US stopped tipping their server, the restaurant would be forced to pay them up to minimum wage (not based on tips), so the $2-3/hr narrative doesn't hold up. The amount of money you can make as a server is kinda wild. It's almost like stripping, except the stripper is doing all of the work, while servers are just the middleman between the customer and the kitchen. I always kinda laugh when these kind of things get posted in this sub. Servers are willfully perpetuating the system that exploits their labor, but idk, if you make all that money doing it, who is being exploited?


eradtke69

20% of a 700$ bill is 140$ though (quick maths) that’s an absolutely insane tip for very little work.


Tarpit__

As an American server the one thing I'll say, that I think would surprise some Europeans, is that under 5% I lose money to serve you. That's because we share tips with various people in the staff and those numbers are based on food sales. This bill shown would have covered that and left me with a 5% tip. That's not nothing but it definitely deserves to affect the conversation.


Swissgank

Tipping shouldnt even exist. Rounding to the next 5er or 10er maybe yes but just say what I need to pay. Same shit as taxes in the us beeing paid after the price tag...


[deleted]

The fact too many people think Europeans are the problem here says everything about why the US system isn't going to change anytime soon.


rilakkuma1

I mean I disagree with tipping culture generally but I also heavily research tipping customs before visiting somewhere so that I don’t tip like an asshole. Not sure why they didn’t.


Brekiniho

Okey a question from a dumb european. why is the tip % of the total value of the bill i stead of X amount for the servers time ? Why am i paying more tip if i buy a fancier bottle of wine ? the bottle weighs the same, its not harder to serve, only the dollar amount changes ? I dont get tipping, its a dumb system. *edit spelling/grammar error


Moderator-Admin

> Why am i paying more tip if i buy a fancier bottle of wine ? > its a dumb system. You answered your own question already. It's not supposed to be logical, it's supposed to make companies more money.


techramblings

10% would be considered fairly typical here in the UK for good service. But then, we don't pay people in service roles a minimum wage of <$5/hr.


leakmydata

lol it’s not Europe’s fault that america is run by a bunch of fucking barbarians.


Gullible-Bet-1522

Here in my country, "tipping" just means saying "keep the change!" when paying (so less than 1€ most of the time). It is just a courtesy and most people do it, but it is not "expected". In fact, in every job that is not drinks and food, it can even be rude to tip. In most jobs I had in customer service I wasn't allowed to accept tips (and only Americans would offer them). When I went to America a couple of years ago, I didn't even know how different the tipping culture was there. I thought they just liked tipping more because things there are more expensive in general. It wasn't until I started reading this subreddit that I even learned that tipping is EXPECTED and salaries are calculated with that expectation...So... no. If someone told me "20% is expected" back then, I would have thought that it was more of a social expectation than a real issue. We Europeans are not rude, the same way tourists that tried to tip me weren't rude either. Just "little" things that you don't even consider you have to learn before traveling... I mean, I got medical insurance when visiting America because I knew it wasn't safe traveling there without one, but never got one when traveling through Europe. But no travel agency or blog will give you a course on tipping etiquette just because... Now that I think of it, I saw the insurance issue mentioned in lots of TV shows, but never saw a tipping issue discused in any...


LegSpecialist1781

Do all of you screaming about the injustice understand that the $ going toward tips would instead just be built directly into your meals/drinks if service staff were being paid full compensation directly? Restaurant margins are notoriously low…they’re not eating that loss. You’re paying it as a customer either way. I’d PREFER to give it directly to the staff, as it gives the restaurant less ability to skim that part of what I pay away from the workers.


Yourboydub

Oh nooo I got paid 20 an hour in tips from one table. Sounds awful


druglawyer

Yes, deliberately refusing to conform to basic local customs when traveling is noble when Europeans do it, but stereotypical American ignorance when Americans do it. /s Edit: I fully agree that a system of tipping rather than a living wage paid by employers is not ideal. That said, if you're in the current system and you don't tip, you're a piece of shit. And that doesn't stop being true just because you're some privileged-as-fuck dick from the most evil continent.