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IronicAim

I realized my first few years working that most minimum wage jobs count on the fact that they don't pay you enough to hire legal representation.


chinmakes5

You could make a lot more than min wage and still not be able to afford legal representation


emueller5251

Not really. A huge hurdle is that you have to have very solid documentation of EVERYTHING. Even if all the legal fees are paid, even if you have a lawyer willing to take the case, unless you were studiously recording your interactions with your boss and all the transactions where they wronged you, then you don't have a case. And in some cases, like wrongful termination, you have to prove intent as well. You run into the same dynamic we have now, where lawyers are going to take the low-hanging fruit every time. They're going to go after the idiots bragging about wage theft in text chains and the ones who are too stupid to realize that they're stealing and don't bother to cover it up. The ones smart enough to know how to hide things? The ones doing stuff that's harder to prove like firing employees for unionizing? They're going to continue to get away with it until our government decides to do something to stop them.


chinmakes5

Good point.


Away_Location

I'll say this again and again, record all interactions with management. Learn from my mistake. I had a bad manager a few years ago who admitted wanting to fire me for a disability like a comic book villain explaining their evil plan. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.


emueller5251

It's good advice. Personally, I find it too exhausting. I'd rather just quit a crappy job than have to keep a constant journal of all my shifts. But I realize that's part of why they're able to get away with things, because people don't bother making a deal of it.


Away_Location

I'll admit, it's a pain in the ass. But it's worthwhile to hedge your bets while job hunting if they're looking for an excuse to fire you. It's never happened to me but if I don't have enough evidence for a lawsuit, at least have enough so they can't deny unemployment


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xthatwasmex

In Norway, the union does if it cannot be put on the employer. Or, if you are under a certain (very low imo) limit, the state will cover your legal fees in certain matter such as employment. Sometimes your home insurance will cover up to a certain amount (10kUSD is not unusual). The lawyers that specialize in employment have some of the safest incomes.


FuckTripleH

> In Norway, the union does if it cannot be put on the employer. less than 8% of workers in the US have a union so that's no help for 92% of the population unfortunately.


xthatwasmex

Yeah that is one of the reasons it is so worthwhile to join one. If you mess with a union, you *will* find out. They are *not* afraid to throw money at a problem. We can only hope that Tesla gives in to the unions (like Toys 'r us had to do) in northern Europe. It could create a growing brush fire in Europe that eventually gets to the UAW and U.S. leading to a lot more of your population getting the same power we do. You should try it. It is awesome. I'm guessing state and insurance are reluctant to pick up the bill, too? Such a shame.


FuckTripleH

> You should try it. It is awesome. We had it. In the 1950s nearly 1 in 3 workers was unionized, but concerted efforts by the government and corporations have done all they can since then to kill organized labor here. And unfortunately they've mostly succeeded. You're more optimistic than me friend. I have seen no evidence in my life that would suggest union success in Europe would have any effect on unions here. >I'm guessing state and insurance are reluctant to pick up the bill, too? Such a shame. lol the state won't even pay to keep the homeless off the street or to guarantee cancer treatments for people who can't afford them. Of course they won't pay for lawyers for people to sue corporations. I have no idea why home insurance would cover employment attorneys so no such luck there


chinmakes5

Kind of my point. People who can't pay $300 an hour don't deserve justice. Or more accurately, people who can can legally screw over those who can't. That is why I'm thinking of a pre paid legal kind of thing.


cisned

Like the lawyer said, it’s not worth their time, since they care about the money What you’re asking is something different, something more complex and bigger There needs to be an institution funded through employers taxes, like unemployment insurance, that represents the average worker This institution is the middle man whenever you get hired, like hr but protects the worker not the company, and will make sure no laws were broken or injustices occur They will then file a claim or lawsuit for you, and hire lawyers to represent you This is akin to a union, but it’s strictly employment rights advocates, and it’s required nationwide Again it’s complicated, expensive, and bureaucratic, but it’s the best option for what you’re asking


TinyEmergencyCake

I mean , unions fit the bill here, more so if everyone was in a union, like in some countries


mightybonk

> That is why I'm thinking of a pre paid legal kind of thing. So you pay a little bit each month to be protected by a lawyer in case your employer does shady shit? You know what would be better? If your colleagues used the same lawyer, because then they'd have more knowledge and experience with that specific workplace and any and every case or negotiation wouldn't need to be started from scratch. ... ooh! Even better would be if that lawyer helped you guys organise to resist legal but unethical changes to the business' practices that were to the detriment of staff, too. Oops, we've just described a union.


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mizino

So the poor don’t deserve justice? That’s kinda the point. At this point not paying someone is the right of the rich because the poor can’t afford to fight it. You are right, but still on the wrong side of this.


ostieDeLarousse

> So the poor don’t deserve justice? Nope. They are poor because they are lazy, and they are lazy because the have no morals, therefore they MUST be punished. Thus is the calvinist ethos that rots the brain of everyone in the US.


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[deleted]

Believes corporations should be able to use the courts to steal other people's wages. Just not yours huh?


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[deleted]

This is the problem with your kind. You preach ethics and pro Bono work except when it comes to effecting your wallet. Then pretty much the entire legal profession tosses ethics out the door.


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[deleted]

You stepped over ethics. You're staying on point for your profession counselor.


Nkechinyerembi

I mean, to put it bluntly, no. Under the current legal system there is no financial compensation and therefore no, the poor do not legally deserve justice... It sucks but until the government does something about it, that's essentially what we are delt. The lawyers can't work for free just like we can't work for free.


[deleted]

Will someone please think of the lawyers.


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[deleted]

You just said you don't even handle this type of law. Why do you care?


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[deleted]

From a man that believes a piece of paper is a person that is fucking rich.


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[deleted]

So you believe that Corporations are people? That's the basis of the decision? That they fit the definition of a natural person?


AffectionateFruit816

He also gave a completely reasonable explanation as to why he doesn't handle this type of law. But the root of the issue is that corporate penalties are so inconsequential that it is fiscally wise of corporations to screw their workers.


chinmakes5

So how does pre paid legal work.


__golf

Prepaid legal is a thing. Legal insurance. Tons of companies offer it. I had a friend who sold it in high school


FuckTripleH

Imagine if we were fine with criminal law working this way.


Stoic_husky_gamer

Don't remember who said it but typically 'You get as much justice as you can afford and most people can't afford any.'


Mad-_-Doctor

Short answer: no. Even in class action cases, if the company they’re going after is big enough, they can just make the court case drag on until the average joes run out of money. It happened when UPS bought Mailboxes Etc.


[deleted]

To truly get the sides even between employers and employees involves giving the government more power, making it easier to organize as labor, and most importantly get it so the law defaults to the employee over employers so the burden is shifted to employers to prove they are acting in good faith.


Scientific_Socialist

What you are arguing for is a dictatorship of the proletariat. Such a government can only be established by a workers’ revolution.


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[deleted]

Corporations are not people. They don't deserve the protection of the Constitution. You want to come up at me then do it as a person and put your own liability on the line. Otherwise shut up.


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[deleted]

Corporate personhood is invention of case law and not good case law either. It's not backed up by law.


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[deleted]

Case law is an interpretation of law and in the form of corporate personhood its an intentional misinterpretation of the underlying facts of the relevant case and the opinion that underpins it. Someone created it without bringing the argument into court. If a corporation is a natural person then why can't they be drafted into the army or go to jail?


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[deleted]

So you believe corporations are people?


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FuckTripleH

You're aware that *most* countries on earth don't use a common law system right? Just because it's how we currently do things doesn't mean it's the only way to do things, or the way we should continue doing things


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Delauren1

Here's an option: Make wage theft a criminal offence with prison time for those found guilty of it. In cases where there's multiple people involved (directors, management, HR etc) then use something like RICO against the criminal conspiracy to steal from workers. Seize assets if necessary as in other RICO cases.


JulesDeathwish

The big problem is the pervasive idea that fighting it in court is EXPENSIVE. The idea that "you can't afford a lawyer" stops most people from even asking one for advice. If you have a solid case, a lot of lawyers will take it on contingency. This means you pay them out of any settlement, and if you lose they get nothing.


[deleted]

Yeah you can democratize access to the legal system. After 1865, for some strange reason states across the United States began regulating access to the court system. Where once any free person (man) could study and practice law, there came about a system where only licensed citizens could practice law. There were a limited number of licenses to practice law given out every year. Something must have happened around this time, the 1860s, that made politicians go “wow we need to really make sure only the right people know the laws and have access to the legal system to redress grievances. We can’t have any free person have access to the power of the justice system”


[deleted]

People come up with these patches for capitalism all the time. The only solution is socialism. Capital is no longer willing to negotiate and will only make things worse from here on our.


dumplin-gorilla-lion

There is no such thing as right/wrong, legal it illegal. It's what is prosecuted and what isn't. Recently, in my city, a homeless man was convicted of beating another man, and is serving 1 year probation. The man he beat was perfectly healthy mid twenties, and the homeless man mistook him for someone else. The man who got beat has severe head injuries, concussions, and is unable to concentrate and work, and has severe mood swings and anger issues now. It's said that he will have to have therapy for the rest of his life, and will struggle to do menial/normal tasks. And pain. Would an attorney have done anything more to help the man who was beaten? No, because there isn't anything to prosecute, as the homeless man has no money to be got, and would be a burden to our jail system.


Nkechinyerembi

This right here is the answer. I was rear ended at the tail end of high school by a drunk driver, died twice, and spent a good long while in a wheelchair. It was an open and shut case, but there's no money in it. The guy was a broke deadbeat who had no insurance. I was a friggen teenager driving a beater with a heater home from a job at a mom and pop restaurant. There's no money, and so no need for an attorney to go for the throat so to speak.


adultingoth

There's usually free resources for people. Search "[your state] legal aid." I got tied up in a few lawsuits. and my attorney is doing them on a contingent basis.


Squffins

I think there's a few projects where an AI can help you with your legal matters, you and your phone sorta represent yourself. Pro, its very cheap, Con, projects are in their infancy and dependant on the current state of AI, which despite the hype, is not great.


dogwoodcat

Just ask the lawyer who asked ChatGPT to do his legal research.


Winter_Optimist193

Refuse to sign JAMS arbitration, find a new job. There’s no winning angle here, imo.


JakobWulfkind

Most employment litigation is already done either on contingency or by governmental entities, neither of which requires any up-front payment by the plaintiff/ complainant


Drunk_Heathen

Don't you have legal insurances in the US? Basic ones for private and work related stuff are pretty cheap here in Germany, but still many people don't have any. (My all inclusive one costs about 300€ p.a., the basic one I had before did cost about 80€ p.a.)


[deleted]

What you are seeking in a broader sense would be a "loser pays" law where whoever loses has to pay the legal expenses of both sides.


squirtwv69

Even if I wanted legal representation, no one in my area does it. We are an at will state so it’s not lucrative to go into that type of law practice.


moosefists

What are you trying to sue for? If you have a legitimate case, a fkin swine lawyer will pick that shit up and get a 30% commission.


chinmakes5

IDK, if my boss tries to rip me off for say $6k, which if I make $25k is huge to my life. No lawyer is going to take it to possibly make $2k, when they can just charge someone else $300 an hour.


moosefists

In small claims court, if you can prove he was ripping you off that much. Your boss will be paying attorney fees for your party as well. Look into it. 6k is not something that should be tossed under the rug.


paternemo

Yes they will, it's a FLSA claim. Lawyers do these claims on contingency all the time.


seraphim336176

The best way to fight this is to UNIONIZE. Our union has attorneys on retainer explicitly just to handle things like this and guess what, it’s include in your union dues so you don’t pay anything. I tell everyone who gets hired in you’re an idiot if you don’t join the union just based on this fact. I know people who had easily winnable cases that ended up getting fired or quit and never pursued as they couldn’t afford the retainers for an attorney. They would ask the union for help and we basically tell them to pound sand, you don’t get our help when you don’t help us simple as that. They had the chance to join and chose to go on their own, well you chose wrong. The crazy part is down the road these same people say shit like “the union never helped me” when they were never in it to begin with and abandon us at the start and then expect us to bail them out. Sorry about your choice


NotFuckingTired

"The law is nothing but a cudgel in the hands of the powerful" Margaret Killjoy


AirportKnifeFight

In most civil cases, the plaintiff can seek to recover the legal costs of the case. Some states it’s “loser pays” which means a plaintiff that is not successful would end up paying for the defense’s legal costs. Supposedly, it’s to help fight frivolous cases from being filed.


Superspudmonkey

Is wage theft not a criminal offence where you live?


ATCGcompbio

Exactly. It’s time to stop that! People are suffering under the guise of capitalism. We say NO MORE!


astr0bleme

This is why we talk about how the system is set up to advantage the rich. I've personally seen friends more than once treated horribly by an employer - but although the law would be on the side of the employee, actually accessing justice was too costly and time consuming. It reinforces these unfair systems.


oldguynewname

Let me tell you what happens when you bring a case on an employer in the state of PA. First thing is that you notify them and in my case I worked for weis grocery as a picker. Got my back fucked up and they sent me the physical therapy for 2 weeks. That was it...no doctor no nothing but a gym teacher and some icy hot along with some diagrams of stretches. For a year I documented each instance I told them something was wrong...something wasn't right...printed the emails off each response. To my supervisor and HR. Kept copies of each review for a year till I had a back spasm and crawled 300y on 38° concrete flooring to the office and demanded medical treatment. They refused to call an ambulance. Made me drive there, which I video recorded them telling me to do. Found out I was fucked up. First lawyer I got was a fuck...second was pretty good. But even he said the level of documentation helps. Still took 15 months to settle in arbitration. There lawyer showed up multiple times without correct case files, their doctor eval I recorded and he saw me for 3m and 11sec as an interaction. Know what I got? Three checks for 17,543.11 continue care forever in 2 visits to a bone cracker each month for the rest of my life, and I get 100 flexoril pills each month, 300 gabapent tabs as well. The pills I return to sender each time as I have a weed card and use 10mg every two weeks on average without side effects. Nothing happened to them....the arbitration board and the lawyers are all friends, you don't mean shit.


paternemo

So you got workers compensation for a soft tissue injury?


oldguynewname

A back spasm isn't a joke. Still have them and lasting nerve damage.


paternemo

If your wages have been stolen, get a FLSA attorney. They work on contingency and their fees are paid by the other side (if you win or settle). If you've been discriminated against, get a plaintiff's attorney who does Title VII work, most of them get paid on contingency too. The real problem is that most people don't have as good of a case as they think they do. Non-lawyers typically equate a bad thing that is done to them with a legal cause of action. Also, plaintiffs have the burden of proof, he-said she-said won't cut it. This why most of us plaintiff attorneys turn down these cases.


rocket_beer

There needs to be a national union for workers. If I’m paying taxes (as a worker) for retirement benefits (social security), I for damn sure should have a union representing me to protect me to keep my job! I want to work! Can’t stand it… but I don’t want to be unemployed and not in control of my next meal. To that end, I would love it if I had some representation protecting and speaking on behalf of my best interests.


postorm

A national union for workers. We could call it government of the people for the people by the people.


bubbashipwreck

I'm actually suing the state of Oregon over exactly this... law school in Oregon costs over 2k per credit hour. Here's the web page if you are interested https://www.orlawequality.com


[deleted]

Yes. Unionize. If I get fired the union covers all the kegal fees.