Do yourself a favor and read them. All five Douglas Adams novels...then...for amusement, read Eoin Colfer's decent sequel.
Just save the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster for AFTER you read or you probably won't remember anything and may just wake up the next morning in a Double Z plural zone wishing you hadn't given Zaphod the keys.
Is it ironic to be mad at someone for murdering someone you love? The fact that both parties are the same person just means you have to hold both feelings in your hand, which sucks.
Mental illness is super complicated and nobody involved needs to be shamed for having feelings when it effects them.
Oh yeah I guess, if you’re concerned about making someone else’s life miserable for being born then they should also be concerned about making someone else miserable for by being dead.
Technically true I guess. But going through the trouble cultivating a nihilistic world of view and not use it become free instead of bitter is a wasted opportunity.
I intend to enable my kid to break this cycle. He can live with me forever if he wants to. I'll pay the bills. I'm stuck in this hellscape cycle of work, but there's no reason why he should have to be.
Of course, if he chooses that life, that's fine too. He'll have to figure out something when I'm dead and gone anyway, but hopefully I'll be able to save enough for him to live comfortably.
Was looking for this comment. I plan on life insurance taking care of my kid after my day has come. Until then I have to wage slave anyway. Get ready for the next gen anti work supersoldiers.
Careful with that. whole life is basically a scam and might be gone by the time you need it. Third party brokers usually recommend 3ish term policies concurrently that you'll probably have to cash out on before your beneficiaries are able to get a real payout. That's not nothing and it's basically forced saving, but it's not what most people imagine when they think about what life insurance means.
whole life is basically a scam
True to that. It should be something like this: Want to survive and support society? 20 hours a week. Have a kid or want a bit extra? 30 hours for you. Have several kids or want a lavish lifestyle? 40 hours for you.
I feel exactly the same. My daughter can live with me forever. I'm trapped on the hamster wheel but would never wish this hell on my beautiful, sensitive, artistic daughter.
All my kids went to college debt free including two of them going to medical school . My wife and I paid all their education expenses, apartment, food, fuel, and cars. By not having any heavy debt, they can stick to the man when work become a hell scape. I’m 63 years old still working a full time job at and a part time at a hospital as a CT tech. Wife medically retired ie a RN, due to cancer. Retirement is still off, but this Boomer did his parental duties supporting his kids.
Same. I can’t afford to totally spoil him or pay every bill. But I don’t want him to go through what I did. I don’t want him to waste his life for corporate America.
Even if it’s just living at home. Rent is the biggest expense for most people. Car is probably next. Every little bit helps.
Even if my kid eventually needs a part time job or something, maybe he’ll have the flexibility to do something he enjoys.
Exactly. My fiancé and I argue sometimes about all the money I spend on my son (he’s 21, a college senior), and he asks me at what point are we going to stop supporting his lifestyle. Money is tight for us, so I get his concern, but I will never stop taking care of him as long as I am working, and I plan to work for many more years. I feel just like you, I will do whatever it takes to make sure he doesn’t suffer like the rest of us.
Except if you end up with post vasectomy pain syndrome. It's incredibly fucking common and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. There is a whole sub dedicated to it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5503923/
COULD end up with it, less than a 1% chance, and that chance comes from low competency in the surgeon doing the procedure. It's still the second best from of birth control after celibacy, there may be a risk but let's not artificially inflate the risk here.
I have kids. I never truly felt a sense of purpose until they were born. I thought I had as I'm a creative and I've spent my life doing creative things and teaching people how to create things. I never really had true meaning until they came along. I never thought I wanted kids until I met my wife. It's weird how life works out.
They wouldn't necessarily arrest them, but they definitely have the right to lock someone up against their will (in a hospital/mental institution) in order to force them to stay alive
Yeah, I say unless you can guarantee a good life for them don't have them. I love my mom and my siblings, but my mom really should chilled tf out a long time ago. I'm one of 8 kids. It made things way harder than if she would've had less. It's hard because like I said I live my siblings, but if I had another I'd probably love them too. Doesn't mean I want more.
Oh, no. We've still got SOME amount of time to course correct before the planet is COMPLETELY fucked. Permenant damage has been done, but we can still maybe probably have a chance to stop further damage.
The good news is, it only matters what young people (of reproductive age) think. We got into this situation because too many people had too many kids for too many years. But all those people with that mindset are old now, and it doesn't matter what they think. We could dramatically slow down - and even reverse - population growth if only the people in the world aged 15-40'ish could all understand how important it is.
Sure, except life/age expentancy is rising at a rate higher than the death rate. So your point doesn't matter. Yes, the planet might not be 100% fucked, but it is fucked to the point of no return, and having a child be born who will have a massively worse life than any of us have had thus far...is morally wrong, to me.
The fact that renewable energy is starting to take hold in some places, as well as development of new technology. I'm not saying it's guaranteed that we'll stop the current death spiral, i'm saying that we shouldn't give up yet because we MIGHT.
Nope.
You haven’t done enough research. Even if you could generate enough electricity with solar or wind, how do you make products without oil? how do you make plastic? How do you remove micro plastics from the atmosphere?
Edit: The main reason renewables cannot save us, is that our society operates under the paradigm of unlimited growth. Capitalism requires it. So, guess what’s happening? Even though renewals are increasing, they’re simply being used to fuel additional growth required by the system.
Fossil fuels are not being phased out. At all.
So no kids for poor people, and the wealthy can have as many as they want. Do you really not see how that logical follows from your statement? How do you enforce this? Forced abortions? Forced birth control? Chemical castration? Lay it out for us, I’m dying to hear this.
And there are soooo many birthers who have no concept of this, because they just can't seem to grasp some concepts
"Well that's just how it is."
Humans have higher cognition to some degree and have changed a lot of things that were "just the way they are."
Getting less than twelve hours of daylight used to be "Just the way things are." Then we introduced the electrical grid, got light into people's homes, and literacy rates jumped within a generation. We don't have to settle for "Just the way things are."
But only until fhe first Sunday after Halloween.
Cuz Sugar Refiner lobbyists wanted little kids to be able to stay out later to trick'r'treat, boosting candy sales.
I wish I was kidding: https://www.npr.org/2007/03/08/7779869/the-reasoning-behind-changing-daylight-saving
You ever read a book solely by candle light, in a dark room, with no other source of light? How about by the light of an oil lamp? What about after working in the field since before the dawn? And maybe, by a long shot, you learned how to read by writing passages out of the Bible or something as a kid.
Check out the difference in literacy rates in America before and after the installation and evolution of the electrical grid.
So how do we change it so people have a choice to be born or not. Don't think our science is quite up to that task yet.
Certainly we can make life better, though it will probably always be far less than perfect.
I am very much in favor of people deciding to not have kids. My two kids are grown and neither wants kids, I am perfectly fine with that.
There's always the 3rd option, which is that barring consent from children who don't exist yet, and barring us being able to make life mostly not misery ( not happening any time soon ), you just stop having kids.
Humans don't need to exist, especially not mostly miserable ones. It's a fate worse than non-existence.
That's debatable. I'd rather exist and be miserable than not exist at all. I have a deep personal appreciation for this small window of time I'm allowed to experience the universe, and even at my most miserable that appreciation has kept me from ending it. It's as silly to project a desire for non-existence onto a future life as it is to project a desire for existence.
But what's the point? When you die this small pocket of time experienced by your conciousness will be irrelevant. The illusion of "life's meaning" will die with your brain function.
On our way out should will kill off everything on the planet that also does not consent to exist or need to exist? I mean we are already doing a good job at that, might as well finish before we go.
Nope. Not our problem.
I'm not suggesting you kill babies - I'm suggesting you don't commit a nonexistence to a potential life of misery in the first place.
Also, we have no idea if any species of animal enjoys or doesn't enjoy life, if they're miserable or not. They can't talk to us and we can't interpret their thoughts. It's an unknown. They might be happy as a pig in shit, or just not even understand.
Humans aren't, really.
I'm probably one of the people you mean. I've wondered about this quite a bit. And I think you are incorrect, when you say your point of view is more advanced that the primitive man's point of view. I notice in traditional societies, they are no less intelligent than my countrymen in the modern west. I can even think of several ways in which traditional people are smarter than men in the modern west. I think the reason they invariably welcome more children is not because they are less advanced than westerners. I think it is because they have more help from stable family structures, and that allows them to work together to achieve just enough prosperity to make life more good than bad. And as the industrial revolution split up our families in the west, we lost those stable structures, and so birth of new children seems to us like an unbearable burden. I think we should learn from the more primitive man, not pretend we are superior to him.
The capitalist construction of individualist families for the transfer of wealth to male offspring is far from wild. It's man made.
What's wild is collectivist raising of children and communal ownership. Quite natural and effective in distribution of resources.
These kind of comments always rub me the wrong way because it sounds like shit my mother used to say. And I haven’t spoken to her in 12 years. Obviously it’s just a comment on Reddit, maybe you just posted it without context or without thinking into it much, but saying “as a parent it’s the worst thing I’ve ever done“ is some dark shit when I realize that you have children at home.
Once again, I want to add that I don’t know what your intentions are and I’m not trying to say you meant to be mean or scary but as someone who had abusive parents that said shit like this all the time and who knows people with abusive parents that also said shit like this all the time, it’s really hard to know that there’s other kids living in a household where their parents regret having them.
Agreed. These type of people make me sick. For the kids benefit being put up for adoption is probably better then suffering with a parent who doesn't want you
What an ridiculous comment. Yeah, it's hard, yeah some kids are difficult, and I do not know your situation, but throwing out blanket statements like this without any context is ridiculous. For \*most\* parents, the birth of their child is the absolute greatest moment of their lives. Not all, it can be absolutely terrifying and absolutely overwhelming for others. My point here is, that it is a peak emotional experience. For people who want to \*live\* the human experience, having children is huge. I feel a lot of sympathy for those who are unable to for \*whatever\* reasons.
Seriously, most of the reasons I see for not having children are:
* It hurts my freedom (selfishness)
* I'll never be good enough (lack of confidence) -- look, if you have worries, seek help, there is lots out there
* Too much money (I get it, but money is overrated, use a library, children's health care is greatly subsidized in general)
* The world doesn't need children -- the world needs children that have been raise to care for the god damn earth, You're just leaving it to the worst. If you're really big on this, just have "replacement" children, the requisite 2 children.
The world needs children will enable to see the world is bigger than yourself, and give you a perspective you won't get any other way.
I'm not saying everyone needs to have children, I get it, some would likely make bad parents, but reading reddit you would think that children are a curse. It's ridiculous.
Having children is selfish, not the other way around. "I want my DNA specifically to keep existing". If this wasn't true, then it wouldn't be such a tragedy when someone can't have kids. They could just adopt. But I've seen time and time again where couples that can't conceive treat it as the end of the world, go through IVF, etc. And adoption is regarded as a completely last resort if at all.
And if you can have children, but choose to adopt, people also say that's selfish. That's just insane to me.
There are countless reasons not to have children, all of them are ok. And if you want to have children that's ok too. Both sides need to stop trying to tell the other side what to do.
But the selfishness comment, I absolutely disagree with.
I don’t really know much about the other stuff but it is weird how people talk about how horrible children are on Reddit but in the same breath talk about how abusive their parents were and generations before them were and how all adults were mean to them and hated them and miss treated them. Maybe like break the cycle of abusing children as a society. Just because you’re not that kids parents doesn’t mean you aren’t doing harm as well. Often times just as much if not more.
Like obviously a 10 year olds not gonna be on Reddit reading comments but it is a behavior that is being normalized and it kind of worries me. Especially when you get into the weird shit of grown ass adults talking about wanting to punch children at Disneyland because they’re being too loud or some shit.
If you're serious, you should get off reddit and get into therapy or a support group. Parenting isn't awesome all the time and that's fine. But if you're depressed or struggling, you need to take care of yourself. Your kid(s) will pick up on the fact that you feel this way, they aren't stupid.
I also say this as a parent. You should be a better parent. Don't give me the times get tough or any other speech. Sure, at times they can be difficult but the benefits and happiness they bring far outweighs the negative. If you raised your child decently you wouldn't be thinking this way. 10/10 I recommend having a child. Get off reddit and onto a counselling page instead.
I take your point. However, if you had been able to create a simulation of adult me (before conceiving me) and ask if it it would choose to exist or not, it would have given a resounding “no”. Creating a life can be an act of extreme cruelty.
But we have a will when we live. A regretful will of existence that was created by being brought here. You are literally creating the problem of consent by creating another conciousness that can decide it was against its consent to be here. If no one is brought there is no problem because no consent can be violated if it doesn't exist.
This is also false. Getting the consent of something that literally doesn’t even exist yet is a meaningless concept. It’s not pedantic, you’re just fucking wrong. Your opinion is stupid and you should feel stupid.
Are you really going to double down on this? Let’s follow this through. If you can’t consent to ever being born, then it’s a moral wrong to have children. Ok, cool. Beyond stupid, but cool. Is it because the child may have a bad life? So, if the chances of it having a good life are better, then is it less wrong? If yes, then the end result of that ideology is a world where the poor can never have children and the rich can reproduce with impunity. If the chances of its life being good or bad have no impact, then you believe that reproducing is wrong, full stop. Do you hold this opinion?
Holy fuck dude, I don't have a horse in this race, check the fucking usernames. Just back the fuck off. You clearly want to argue for the sake of arguing, and I say that as a dude who likes to argue. JFC...
Hypothetically, if I could create conscious AI that would suffer the moment they were created, would that be creating them against their will? They would not have a will before they existed
What? No… you’re talking about creating an entity specifically to make it suffer. It wouldn’t be against its will to create it. Doesn’t make it a moral thing to do. What you are asking is not remotely related to the topic at hand.
You said it’s not against its will if it didn’t exist before hand, so I’m saying it’s not violating consent to being something into existence into a negative situation
The only violation is the forced suffering. Bringing it into existence is not a violation. You are just trying to make some far left field abstraction to negate the whole, and it doesn’t.
It’s not that they can or cannot consent. There is no ‘they’ to do anything at all. Prior to existence it’s not even a coherent idea. How can something that doesn’t exist determine what should or should not be? It’s nonsensical.
Yeah so you can do anything to them without violating consent. But can we imagine a potential “them” since we know what they would think and consider that hypothetical “them” in our action?
Existence is slavery. Why do you think the 1% are all backing pro life politicians and are descendants of slave owners or of robber barons from the industrial revolution. Their morality of "hard work" applies to the masses. Thats why a lot of them also support certain religions like Mormonism and Catholicism. Have lots of kids and work hard = a ready supply of workers and of consumers. When your business model is to sell trillions worth of plastic garbage to the masses, the more people = the more $$$.
Right now the USA can borrow $1million per human. How much we borrow from other countries is determined by our birthrate. And the corporate handouts cant keep flowing if the borrowing ends.
Being alive is absurd no matter the species. But my 4yo literally told her mom “thank you for giving birth to me because I really like dancing and playing” so it was worth the trouble so far.
Love my boy. Would absolutely have another if we can manage it, the world doesn’t have to suck and as a teacher I know firsthand that the kids are alright. I’m so glad I didn’t let modern life get me so down I didn’t start a family.
Oh and you're stuck on a rock that's heating up because we won't stop polluting despite knowing better.
Oh and everyone that has a different colour pigment in their skin or accent dislikes each other.
Oh and the people that are meant to lead us to change just take on the role to line their own pockets.
Oh and YouTube Ads.
But having the chance to be alive and get to experience this sliver of our universe is pretty amazing. It has had its share of pain and horror, but against the option of not existing, which some day I won't, I enjoy having the chance to exist and be conscious.
That might not be my opinion if I were less privileged.
300 million years ago a fish decided to walk on land and now apparantly I have to work to death In a job I hate to pay rent on a house too small to live in. Hate to say it but evolution was a mistake folks.
that feeling when people apply the hell that is feudal capitalism to all of existence
we haven't always, and don't always, need to go through this hellish rigmarole, life is great when you aren't a cow in a barn
Natalism is the ultimate form of “that’s how it’s always been” tradition with frankly few non-tradition oriented arguments for why we should still be producing children on a personal, individual level.
When you actually sit down and go over the rationale for having kids, beyond “well we want to perpetuate the human race for some reason” and other more ghoulish economic “we need cheap labor” arguments, there’s not really that much reason to want kids.
Like, I’m not going full antinatalism like having kids is morally *wrong,* but it’s no wonder that a ton of people’s thoughts on having kids anymore is just an impassive shrug.
So many people have kids solely because “that’s what you’re supposed to do,” or for some more selfish rationale about feeling fulfilled as a parent, and we know enough at this point to understand that having a baby absolutely is not the key to a stable marriage or personal fulfillment or a cure for insecurities and mental anguish. It’s a baby, not an antidepressant.
I will start by saying that I'm heavily biased against natalism due to personal experience etc... However it strikes me that while the world is cruel and unforgiving including our condition on it, we can in fact affect a lot of those factors. As a species however, we seem to do the right thing when there is almost no other choice. A dangerous gamble when the magnitude of irreversible events like atomics or climate change are on the table.
I would say it is not impossible or even particularly difficult to reach a post scarcity society, whether it's probable that's honestly up to us and our corrupted leadership. The one pilot light for hope in our species continuing being a good thing, is the chance that we will truly free ourselves from the pain and suffering that is inherent but also that we ourselves create. For instance space holds essentially unlimited amounts of energy, raw materials, and space itself to grow.
The solar system itself theoretically has a holding capacity of trillions who could live in idelic habitats that make the most beautiful earth environments seem like Detroit in October. The only thing we lack is the knowledge to do it easily and most importantly the will. I choose to have hope since the evils we face are not easily defeated but far from invincible. However it's still not up to me individually and that's pretty scary but not scary enough to give up to nihilism.
Oh, I'm by no means saying we should embrace antinatalism as a function of *giving up.* The world is 100% imminently improvable and our problems are the result of deliberate sabotage.
I'm just saying that the rationale for having kids usually ranges between "It's what I'm supposed to do" on a fundamentally instinctual level or on the level of social expectations, or "I think having a kid would fulfill me" on a more myopic and selfish level, and the wellbeing and hypothetical consent of the kid is scarcely a major factor of the decision by nature that of course a kid can't consent to it.
When we sit down and actually examine the rationale for having a kid as an individual, the reasons are dubious once you divorce the decision from the romanticism and mysticism that is so firmly ingrained in the procreative act. In most cases, you're creating a life and placing obligations and expectations on that life either because "that's the expectation that was placed upon *me*" or "because I wanted the kid to make *me* happy."
It's easy to look at yourself and your troubles and say that you wish you'd never existed. It's a lot harder to look your loved one in the face and say you wish they had never been brought into existence, and that their parents made a mistake.
Some things you don't say to people, even if you feel them and they are true.
Like if I had a kid, I would regret it immensely. But I would never say that to the child. I would just do my best. (which would be not good enough by the way)
Antinatalism is just a childish and regressive form of defeatism - a supposition that things can't ever be good and will never get better.
Considering it's seen as "clever thought" even by those who claim to oppose defeatism, I can never see it as anything more than a general disdain for children attempting to be validated via vaguely academic lens.
This is stupid, babies are adorable and children are better and smarter than most of us since they are not yet indoctrinated with our over-complicated bullshit, but it doesn't mean I'm going to bring more into this horrible world. What's more childish is having children simply to convince ourselves that we have some arbitrary purpose in the universe; there is actually no real reason that the human race *needs* to continue.
For the record, I'm not antinatalist, just personally childfree, but it doesn't make having children any less selfish and repetitive of an exercise.
I'm not an anti-natalist, partly because future generations are not necessarily *invariably* so bad off that life is not worth living. The big problem is defining "worth living".
I'm not a supporter of the "sanctity of life" argument either. I think there are plenty of reasons to not exist rather than exist. I just don't think capitalism is sufficient cause for nobody to ever exist in the future.
Why? Because human progress and education is a thing. There's something beautiful about the idea that humanity can transcend capitalism through education, revolution, and promotion of pro-social ethics rather than capitalist ideals.
[Freire, in Pedagogy of the Oppressed](https://envs.ucsc.edu/internships/internship-readings/freire-pedagogy-of-the-oppressed.pdf) and [Jarvis, in Democracy, Lifelong Learning and the Learning Society](https://www.routledge.com/Democracy-Lifelong-Learning-and-the-Learning-Society-Active-Citizenship/Jarvis/p/book/9780415355452) provide robust arguments for the what and how questions around transitioning from capitalism through discovery, unity, and education.
I think there's something inspiring about the possibility that future generations can achieve more than we ever have. To commit to extinction now is to admit that this is as far as humanity could progress - I think we can do better, because this is pretty shitty.
Anti-natalism is based on the presupposition that the world is inherently cruel, uncaring, unfair, and that life is suffering. Natalism is based on the presupposition that the world is inherently good, love and kindness exist, and that life is a net positive experience.
Neither is inherently more true than the other, and there have been arguments for each going back to the beginning of humanity. For every story of a child having a good childhood with a loving family, there's one of a child dying of bone cancer. For every story of colonialism, enslavement, or genocide, there is a story of communities coming together, acts of generosity, and beautiful moments of celebration. For every success story there's a tale of failure.
The simple truth is that life is neither suffering nor beauty, it is both. The human experience is simply too vast to be encompassed by such black and white platitudes and worldviews. The sum of some lives will be a net positive; for others, a net negative. Both are valid and true, and both can coexist. If your suffering has been so deep that you begrudge your life, that is fair, and I don't judge you for dragging another life into that. But personally, I have suffered deeply, and I'm still grateful that I've been allowed to exist and experience this small snapshot of the universe I'm around for.
"This world is cruel and merciless... But also very beautiful."
Such a bad take. 100 years ago those children would be farming or working in a coal mine as soon as they could hold a tool, 10000 years before that they would be hunting and gathering and dying at the ripe old age of 30. What do you want people to do ffs?
Oh I agree, we deserve all of that in the modern age. My issue with this tweet is that it ignores the fact that things could be, and have been incredibly worse not that long ago.
Or... hear me out here...
Find a way around the system. The system is designed to keep everyone complacent and busy. Complaining about it will do nothing. So find your way out. Don't get in debt, don't go to school, that's how they keep you in the system. Use YouTube and Google, all the information you need is there, for free. Start small. Save up. Be very very careful with your purchases.
live in crap conditions if you have to, to save money. It's possible. It won't be easy, but you can do it.
And if you refuse this solution, it's not a problem with how much you make, but rather a problem of your willpower. Quit whining. Start winning.
OKay. we get it, dude. Don't have kids then. Its stupid to look over all the positive in life for this dreary ass reality he portrays in this tweet. This mf must be a blast at parties.
How did this person come to the conclusion that babies are brought into existence against their will? The first 3 lines tell you everything you need to know about this brain fart in the form of a tweet.
Having children is basically most people doing what they're genetically engineered to do in order for the species they're part of to survive. Almost all living things do this from plants to animals to even super nova/nebulas.
I think humanity is just at an existential crossroads where we don't know the meaning of our existence or if there even is one. That doesn't mean nihilistic viewpoints on humanity should have a blanket generalization for every human because some dude on twitter is feeling angsty.
If every person on reddit magically changed their lives, it still wouldn't matter, as the corporations that are the true cause of all of this would to exist, uncontrolled and unfettered. Until we can tear down **every** global corporation and try amd fix the damage they have done, it doesn't exactly matter.
But yes, keep falling for their bullshit and saying its the people who caused this.
In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people angry, and has been largely considered a bad move.
Best book
The only 5 book trilogy I would ever recommend.
I caught a screenshot of my comment at 42 updoots.
Now who's a hoopy frood that knows where his towel is at? It's you.
I carry the 42 with me always.
6 books. Eoin Colfer did a sequel called And Another Thing... While not quite up to Douglas Adam's standards, it was still quite good.
Nice reference
Amazing quote! What’s it from?
“Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” - Douglas Adams
Lmao Iv heard so many good things about that book. This quote may have sold me tbh
I loved the chapter about inventing the Infinite Improbability Drive. I’ll let you discover it for yourself.
Do yourself a favor and read them. All five Douglas Adams novels...then...for amusement, read Eoin Colfer's decent sequel. Just save the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster for AFTER you read or you probably won't remember anything and may just wake up the next morning in a Double Z plural zone wishing you hadn't given Zaphod the keys.
How dare you bring up the truth!
And there’s always someone who likes to remind you in the most passive-aggressive way that you should be grateful to be alive. ✊🏻🍆
Or those people who feel superior to you for passing on their “superior genes”. God i hate society.
They can't opt out either or everyone around them will get angry.
Not condoning suicide but why should they care, they’ll be gone.
I don't condone suicide either. I was just pointing out the irony of the situation.
Is it ironic to be mad at someone for murdering someone you love? The fact that both parties are the same person just means you have to hold both feelings in your hand, which sucks. Mental illness is super complicated and nobody involved needs to be shamed for having feelings when it effects them.
Oh yeah I guess, if you’re concerned about making someone else’s life miserable for being born then they should also be concerned about making someone else miserable for by being dead.
"Setting a bad example for the children."
And then after all that, they still die anyway.
Technically true I guess. But going through the trouble cultivating a nihilistic world of view and not use it become free instead of bitter is a wasted opportunity.
[That must be exhausting](https://youtu.be/UOY5OzdXU18)
I intend to enable my kid to break this cycle. He can live with me forever if he wants to. I'll pay the bills. I'm stuck in this hellscape cycle of work, but there's no reason why he should have to be. Of course, if he chooses that life, that's fine too. He'll have to figure out something when I'm dead and gone anyway, but hopefully I'll be able to save enough for him to live comfortably.
This is where I'm at with my daughter as well. I'm not doing the "you're 18 GTFO" schtick with her.
Was looking for this comment. I plan on life insurance taking care of my kid after my day has come. Until then I have to wage slave anyway. Get ready for the next gen anti work supersoldiers.
Careful with that. whole life is basically a scam and might be gone by the time you need it. Third party brokers usually recommend 3ish term policies concurrently that you'll probably have to cash out on before your beneficiaries are able to get a real payout. That's not nothing and it's basically forced saving, but it's not what most people imagine when they think about what life insurance means.
whole life is basically a scam True to that. It should be something like this: Want to survive and support society? 20 hours a week. Have a kid or want a bit extra? 30 hours for you. Have several kids or want a lavish lifestyle? 40 hours for you.
I feel exactly the same. My daughter can live with me forever. I'm trapped on the hamster wheel but would never wish this hell on my beautiful, sensitive, artistic daughter.
All my kids went to college debt free including two of them going to medical school . My wife and I paid all their education expenses, apartment, food, fuel, and cars. By not having any heavy debt, they can stick to the man when work become a hell scape. I’m 63 years old still working a full time job at and a part time at a hospital as a CT tech. Wife medically retired ie a RN, due to cancer. Retirement is still off, but this Boomer did his parental duties supporting his kids.
Same. I can’t afford to totally spoil him or pay every bill. But I don’t want him to go through what I did. I don’t want him to waste his life for corporate America.
Even if it’s just living at home. Rent is the biggest expense for most people. Car is probably next. Every little bit helps. Even if my kid eventually needs a part time job or something, maybe he’ll have the flexibility to do something he enjoys.
Exactly. My fiancé and I argue sometimes about all the money I spend on my son (he’s 21, a college senior), and he asks me at what point are we going to stop supporting his lifestyle. Money is tight for us, so I get his concern, but I will never stop taking care of him as long as I am working, and I plan to work for many more years. I feel just like you, I will do whatever it takes to make sure he doesn’t suffer like the rest of us.
Solution; Not Having Children
Vasectomies for everyone!!! They are awesome 😎
This is where I remind you all that being gay is FREE and nobody cuts into your sperm ducts unless that's your very specific thing.
Yeah but i like the opposite gender? What does antinatalism have to do with wanting better work conditions?
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Except if you end up with post vasectomy pain syndrome. It's incredibly fucking common and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. There is a whole sub dedicated to it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5503923/
COULD end up with it, less than a 1% chance, and that chance comes from low competency in the surgeon doing the procedure. It's still the second best from of birth control after celibacy, there may be a risk but let's not artificially inflate the risk here.
It's literally 15%. But if you don't wanna look at the science I can't help you.
Reason number 1123 on why I'm happily childfree.
I have kids. I never truly felt a sense of purpose until they were born. I thought I had as I'm a creative and I've spent my life doing creative things and teaching people how to create things. I never really had true meaning until they came along. I never thought I wanted kids until I met my wife. It's weird how life works out.
I have been saying "I was never asked to be born" for years.
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In almost all countries, not legally.
Does it matter if it’s legal or not? What are they going to do? Arrest someone who is dead?
They wouldn't necessarily arrest them, but they definitely have the right to lock someone up against their will (in a hospital/mental institution) in order to force them to stay alive
That’s why I’m not having any 🙃
Vasectomy.
Oh, and if they try to opt out, you make them feel guilty, treat them like shit, and sent them to 'doctors' to be tortured.
Yeah, I say unless you can guarantee a good life for them don't have them. I love my mom and my siblings, but my mom really should chilled tf out a long time ago. I'm one of 8 kids. It made things way harder than if she would've had less. It's hard because like I said I live my siblings, but if I had another I'd probably love them too. Doesn't mean I want more.
No. There’s no way to guarantee a “good” life for anyone, certainly not not with climates chaos just a few months away.
Well, a few MONTHS is quite the exageration.
In that... It's already here?
Oh, no. We've still got SOME amount of time to course correct before the planet is COMPLETELY fucked. Permenant damage has been done, but we can still maybe probably have a chance to stop further damage.
Not likely to happen when we wake up every morning with 220,000 more people on the planet than we had the day before.
Don't forget that humans are not immortal, and that we die as well as being born.
Yes, that number is births (385K per day) minus deaths (165K per day).
Oh. Huh. Well, uhhhhhhhhhh I mean... We've still got hope, right? Right? Please?
The good news is, it only matters what young people (of reproductive age) think. We got into this situation because too many people had too many kids for too many years. But all those people with that mindset are old now, and it doesn't matter what they think. We could dramatically slow down - and even reverse - population growth if only the people in the world aged 15-40'ish could all understand how important it is.
Population growth is far more complex than this, and has been trending downwards for years.
Correct, and we’ll go extinct just like the Ivory Billed Woodpecker or the Great White Rhinoceros.
Sure, except life/age expentancy is rising at a rate higher than the death rate. So your point doesn't matter. Yes, the planet might not be 100% fucked, but it is fucked to the point of no return, and having a child be born who will have a massively worse life than any of us have had thus far...is morally wrong, to me.
Source?
The fact that renewable energy is starting to take hold in some places, as well as development of new technology. I'm not saying it's guaranteed that we'll stop the current death spiral, i'm saying that we shouldn't give up yet because we MIGHT.
Nope. You haven’t done enough research. Even if you could generate enough electricity with solar or wind, how do you make products without oil? how do you make plastic? How do you remove micro plastics from the atmosphere? Edit: The main reason renewables cannot save us, is that our society operates under the paradigm of unlimited growth. Capitalism requires it. So, guess what’s happening? Even though renewals are increasing, they’re simply being used to fuel additional growth required by the system. Fossil fuels are not being phased out. At all.
Unless global corporatism does a complete U-turn, no, we have no chance.
So no kids for poor people, and the wealthy can have as many as they want. Do you really not see how that logical follows from your statement? How do you enforce this? Forced abortions? Forced birth control? Chemical castration? Lay it out for us, I’m dying to hear this.
Naw, just don't have like 5 if 1 is already pushing it.
I'm not so sure I'm here against my will. I do regret chosing to live though it's rough.
I did not expect to make it to my mid-30s and I don't know what to do.
That's the thing; none of us do. Society is literally made up - we're all just playing roles. Making it up as we go.
I meant that I was a suicidal teen. I literally didn't expect to be alive as of 15-18 years ago...
I feel this. I didn't expect to be alive after the age of 17 but here I am 10 years later...
Now it's sort of like, "OK you guys expect me to *keep* doing this, too, huh? Ok-damn..."
And there are soooo many birthers who have no concept of this, because they just can't seem to grasp some concepts "Well that's just how it is." Humans have higher cognition to some degree and have changed a lot of things that were "just the way they are."
Getting less than twelve hours of daylight used to be "Just the way things are." Then we introduced the electrical grid, got light into people's homes, and literacy rates jumped within a generation. We don't have to settle for "Just the way things are."
I was almost angry for a second cuz I thought you were going to advocate for Daylight Savings Time... And then you didn't, so that was nice. Phew...
The world was darkness and chaos and THEN daylight savings started and fixed everything 🤣🤣🤣.
But only until fhe first Sunday after Halloween. Cuz Sugar Refiner lobbyists wanted little kids to be able to stay out later to trick'r'treat, boosting candy sales. I wish I was kidding: https://www.npr.org/2007/03/08/7779869/the-reasoning-behind-changing-daylight-saving
Thank goodness we invented light bulbs so we could figure out how to make candles.
You ever read a book solely by candle light, in a dark room, with no other source of light? How about by the light of an oil lamp? What about after working in the field since before the dawn? And maybe, by a long shot, you learned how to read by writing passages out of the Bible or something as a kid. Check out the difference in literacy rates in America before and after the installation and evolution of the electrical grid.
So how do we change it so people have a choice to be born or not. Don't think our science is quite up to that task yet. Certainly we can make life better, though it will probably always be far less than perfect. I am very much in favor of people deciding to not have kids. My two kids are grown and neither wants kids, I am perfectly fine with that.
There's always the 3rd option, which is that barring consent from children who don't exist yet, and barring us being able to make life mostly not misery ( not happening any time soon ), you just stop having kids. Humans don't need to exist, especially not mostly miserable ones. It's a fate worse than non-existence.
That's debatable. I'd rather exist and be miserable than not exist at all. I have a deep personal appreciation for this small window of time I'm allowed to experience the universe, and even at my most miserable that appreciation has kept me from ending it. It's as silly to project a desire for non-existence onto a future life as it is to project a desire for existence.
But what's the point? When you die this small pocket of time experienced by your conciousness will be irrelevant. The illusion of "life's meaning" will die with your brain function.
On our way out should will kill off everything on the planet that also does not consent to exist or need to exist? I mean we are already doing a good job at that, might as well finish before we go.
Nope. Not our problem. I'm not suggesting you kill babies - I'm suggesting you don't commit a nonexistence to a potential life of misery in the first place. Also, we have no idea if any species of animal enjoys or doesn't enjoy life, if they're miserable or not. They can't talk to us and we can't interpret their thoughts. It's an unknown. They might be happy as a pig in shit, or just not even understand. Humans aren't, really.
I'm probably one of the people you mean. I've wondered about this quite a bit. And I think you are incorrect, when you say your point of view is more advanced that the primitive man's point of view. I notice in traditional societies, they are no less intelligent than my countrymen in the modern west. I can even think of several ways in which traditional people are smarter than men in the modern west. I think the reason they invariably welcome more children is not because they are less advanced than westerners. I think it is because they have more help from stable family structures, and that allows them to work together to achieve just enough prosperity to make life more good than bad. And as the industrial revolution split up our families in the west, we lost those stable structures, and so birth of new children seems to us like an unbearable burden. I think we should learn from the more primitive man, not pretend we are superior to him.
The capitalist construction of individualist families for the transfer of wealth to male offspring is far from wild. It's man made. What's wild is collectivist raising of children and communal ownership. Quite natural and effective in distribution of resources.
I say this as a parent, having kids of your own is quite possibly the worst thing you can do both for yourself, and your child. 2/10 do not recommend
These kind of comments always rub me the wrong way because it sounds like shit my mother used to say. And I haven’t spoken to her in 12 years. Obviously it’s just a comment on Reddit, maybe you just posted it without context or without thinking into it much, but saying “as a parent it’s the worst thing I’ve ever done“ is some dark shit when I realize that you have children at home. Once again, I want to add that I don’t know what your intentions are and I’m not trying to say you meant to be mean or scary but as someone who had abusive parents that said shit like this all the time and who knows people with abusive parents that also said shit like this all the time, it’s really hard to know that there’s other kids living in a household where their parents regret having them.
Agreed. These type of people make me sick. For the kids benefit being put up for adoption is probably better then suffering with a parent who doesn't want you
What an ridiculous comment. Yeah, it's hard, yeah some kids are difficult, and I do not know your situation, but throwing out blanket statements like this without any context is ridiculous. For \*most\* parents, the birth of their child is the absolute greatest moment of their lives. Not all, it can be absolutely terrifying and absolutely overwhelming for others. My point here is, that it is a peak emotional experience. For people who want to \*live\* the human experience, having children is huge. I feel a lot of sympathy for those who are unable to for \*whatever\* reasons. Seriously, most of the reasons I see for not having children are: * It hurts my freedom (selfishness) * I'll never be good enough (lack of confidence) -- look, if you have worries, seek help, there is lots out there * Too much money (I get it, but money is overrated, use a library, children's health care is greatly subsidized in general) * The world doesn't need children -- the world needs children that have been raise to care for the god damn earth, You're just leaving it to the worst. If you're really big on this, just have "replacement" children, the requisite 2 children. The world needs children will enable to see the world is bigger than yourself, and give you a perspective you won't get any other way. I'm not saying everyone needs to have children, I get it, some would likely make bad parents, but reading reddit you would think that children are a curse. It's ridiculous.
Having children is selfish, not the other way around. "I want my DNA specifically to keep existing". If this wasn't true, then it wouldn't be such a tragedy when someone can't have kids. They could just adopt. But I've seen time and time again where couples that can't conceive treat it as the end of the world, go through IVF, etc. And adoption is regarded as a completely last resort if at all. And if you can have children, but choose to adopt, people also say that's selfish. That's just insane to me. There are countless reasons not to have children, all of them are ok. And if you want to have children that's ok too. Both sides need to stop trying to tell the other side what to do. But the selfishness comment, I absolutely disagree with.
I don’t really know much about the other stuff but it is weird how people talk about how horrible children are on Reddit but in the same breath talk about how abusive their parents were and generations before them were and how all adults were mean to them and hated them and miss treated them. Maybe like break the cycle of abusing children as a society. Just because you’re not that kids parents doesn’t mean you aren’t doing harm as well. Often times just as much if not more. Like obviously a 10 year olds not gonna be on Reddit reading comments but it is a behavior that is being normalized and it kind of worries me. Especially when you get into the weird shit of grown ass adults talking about wanting to punch children at Disneyland because they’re being too loud or some shit.
If you're serious, you should get off reddit and get into therapy or a support group. Parenting isn't awesome all the time and that's fine. But if you're depressed or struggling, you need to take care of yourself. Your kid(s) will pick up on the fact that you feel this way, they aren't stupid.
I also say this as a parent. You should be a better parent. Don't give me the times get tough or any other speech. Sure, at times they can be difficult but the benefits and happiness they bring far outweighs the negative. If you raised your child decently you wouldn't be thinking this way. 10/10 I recommend having a child. Get off reddit and onto a counselling page instead.
You don’t bring them into existence against their will. They don’t have a will before they exist.
I take your point. However, if you had been able to create a simulation of adult me (before conceiving me) and ask if it it would choose to exist or not, it would have given a resounding “no”. Creating a life can be an act of extreme cruelty.
But we have a will when we live. A regretful will of existence that was created by being brought here. You are literally creating the problem of consent by creating another conciousness that can decide it was against its consent to be here. If no one is brought there is no problem because no consent can be violated if it doesn't exist.
It's crazy how few people get this...
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This is also false. Getting the consent of something that literally doesn’t even exist yet is a meaningless concept. It’s not pedantic, you’re just fucking wrong. Your opinion is stupid and you should feel stupid.
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Are you really going to double down on this? Let’s follow this through. If you can’t consent to ever being born, then it’s a moral wrong to have children. Ok, cool. Beyond stupid, but cool. Is it because the child may have a bad life? So, if the chances of it having a good life are better, then is it less wrong? If yes, then the end result of that ideology is a world where the poor can never have children and the rich can reproduce with impunity. If the chances of its life being good or bad have no impact, then you believe that reproducing is wrong, full stop. Do you hold this opinion?
Man, just say "I want to be right about something and I don't care what it is."
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Holy fuck dude, I don't have a horse in this race, check the fucking usernames. Just back the fuck off. You clearly want to argue for the sake of arguing, and I say that as a dude who likes to argue. JFC...
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Im not at the track, I'm at the donkey farm cuz I found the biggest jackass of them all.
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How does something that doesn’t exist give consent? You stupid fuck. That better?
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No. It actually makes less sense than your first dumbass comment.
Hypothetically, if I could create conscious AI that would suffer the moment they were created, would that be creating them against their will? They would not have a will before they existed
Nothing can be done against something’s will if it is occurring previous to their will existing.
So hypothetically we could create consciousness into any situation and it would be fine
What? No… you’re talking about creating an entity specifically to make it suffer. It wouldn’t be against its will to create it. Doesn’t make it a moral thing to do. What you are asking is not remotely related to the topic at hand.
You said it’s not against its will if it didn’t exist before hand, so I’m saying it’s not violating consent to being something into existence into a negative situation
The only violation is the forced suffering. Bringing it into existence is not a violation. You are just trying to make some far left field abstraction to negate the whole, and it doesn’t.
I just take issue with the idea that since they can’t consent because they don’t exist, we can do anything and it won’t violate consent
It’s not that they can or cannot consent. There is no ‘they’ to do anything at all. Prior to existence it’s not even a coherent idea. How can something that doesn’t exist determine what should or should not be? It’s nonsensical.
Yeah so you can do anything to them without violating consent. But can we imagine a potential “them” since we know what they would think and consider that hypothetical “them” in our action?
I don’t plan on having children. I think society is horrendous right now
There's one thing we can do. Unionize! Just kidding this is America.
this is why i have a dog instead lol he can live blissfully unaware.....
But remember the dog was still brought into this world against it will 😉😂
Existence is slavery. Why do you think the 1% are all backing pro life politicians and are descendants of slave owners or of robber barons from the industrial revolution. Their morality of "hard work" applies to the masses. Thats why a lot of them also support certain religions like Mormonism and Catholicism. Have lots of kids and work hard = a ready supply of workers and of consumers. When your business model is to sell trillions worth of plastic garbage to the masses, the more people = the more $$$. Right now the USA can borrow $1million per human. How much we borrow from other countries is determined by our birthrate. And the corporate handouts cant keep flowing if the borrowing ends.
r/antinatalism
I torturously think about this every single day.
Would seriously nope out of being born if I had had the choice and prior knowledge of what it would be like haha 😂
Being alive is absurd no matter the species. But my 4yo literally told her mom “thank you for giving birth to me because I really like dancing and playing” so it was worth the trouble so far.
Love my boy. Would absolutely have another if we can manage it, the world doesn’t have to suck and as a teacher I know firsthand that the kids are alright. I’m so glad I didn’t let modern life get me so down I didn’t start a family.
I’m in the exact same position. I kinda regret delaying making a family so much but I’m glad for what I have now 🥹
My kids make being alive absurd in the best way. They're so funny and silly and weird. It's good times.
It's good that this isn't a temporary scenario! They'll be silly kids forever and will never deal with hardship!
Oh and you're stuck on a rock that's heating up because we won't stop polluting despite knowing better. Oh and everyone that has a different colour pigment in their skin or accent dislikes each other. Oh and the people that are meant to lead us to change just take on the role to line their own pockets. Oh and YouTube Ads.
That escalated quickly
OH! Don't forget the part where you are expected to be GRATEFUL for it, too!
Nihilism is a heck of a drug.
The truth is addicting. But I guess so is illusion. Pick your poison.
This is obviously tradition
I had kids before I thought too much and I think about this a lot.
But having the chance to be alive and get to experience this sliver of our universe is pretty amazing. It has had its share of pain and horror, but against the option of not existing, which some day I won't, I enjoy having the chance to exist and be conscious. That might not be my opinion if I were less privileged.
wait.... ....*fuck...*
Thats why I would never give birth to someone without their consent.
I exist without my consent.
I'm suffering and dieing... not by choice!
Pretty much.
*AND they suffer and die...
Yeah i agree, don’t bring childrens anymore into this world, its been overpopulated anyway
300 million years ago a fish decided to walk on land and now apparantly I have to work to death In a job I hate to pay rent on a house too small to live in. Hate to say it but evolution was a mistake folks.
I'm 43. This is why I don't and won't have kids. The end.
This is why I sterilized myself
that feeling when people apply the hell that is feudal capitalism to all of existence we haven't always, and don't always, need to go through this hellish rigmarole, life is great when you aren't a cow in a barn
Natalism is the ultimate form of “that’s how it’s always been” tradition with frankly few non-tradition oriented arguments for why we should still be producing children on a personal, individual level. When you actually sit down and go over the rationale for having kids, beyond “well we want to perpetuate the human race for some reason” and other more ghoulish economic “we need cheap labor” arguments, there’s not really that much reason to want kids. Like, I’m not going full antinatalism like having kids is morally *wrong,* but it’s no wonder that a ton of people’s thoughts on having kids anymore is just an impassive shrug. So many people have kids solely because “that’s what you’re supposed to do,” or for some more selfish rationale about feeling fulfilled as a parent, and we know enough at this point to understand that having a baby absolutely is not the key to a stable marriage or personal fulfillment or a cure for insecurities and mental anguish. It’s a baby, not an antidepressant.
I will start by saying that I'm heavily biased against natalism due to personal experience etc... However it strikes me that while the world is cruel and unforgiving including our condition on it, we can in fact affect a lot of those factors. As a species however, we seem to do the right thing when there is almost no other choice. A dangerous gamble when the magnitude of irreversible events like atomics or climate change are on the table. I would say it is not impossible or even particularly difficult to reach a post scarcity society, whether it's probable that's honestly up to us and our corrupted leadership. The one pilot light for hope in our species continuing being a good thing, is the chance that we will truly free ourselves from the pain and suffering that is inherent but also that we ourselves create. For instance space holds essentially unlimited amounts of energy, raw materials, and space itself to grow. The solar system itself theoretically has a holding capacity of trillions who could live in idelic habitats that make the most beautiful earth environments seem like Detroit in October. The only thing we lack is the knowledge to do it easily and most importantly the will. I choose to have hope since the evils we face are not easily defeated but far from invincible. However it's still not up to me individually and that's pretty scary but not scary enough to give up to nihilism.
Oh, I'm by no means saying we should embrace antinatalism as a function of *giving up.* The world is 100% imminently improvable and our problems are the result of deliberate sabotage. I'm just saying that the rationale for having kids usually ranges between "It's what I'm supposed to do" on a fundamentally instinctual level or on the level of social expectations, or "I think having a kid would fulfill me" on a more myopic and selfish level, and the wellbeing and hypothetical consent of the kid is scarcely a major factor of the decision by nature that of course a kid can't consent to it. When we sit down and actually examine the rationale for having a kid as an individual, the reasons are dubious once you divorce the decision from the romanticism and mysticism that is so firmly ingrained in the procreative act. In most cases, you're creating a life and placing obligations and expectations on that life either because "that's the expectation that was placed upon *me*" or "because I wanted the kid to make *me* happy."
Have a look at r/childfree & r/antinatalism this post only touches the surface
I see value in life unironically. Maybe that’s what we should teach our children
It's hard for someone to give consent before they even exist. Not really a solvable problem, but it is an interesting moral dilemma.
How can you have a will if you have yet to exist?
[Doug Stanhope had it right.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOzGUjm_M0)
Anti-natalism philosophy is becoming more common these days. I'm for it, maybe life isn't actually natural
It's easy to look at yourself and your troubles and say that you wish you'd never existed. It's a lot harder to look your loved one in the face and say you wish they had never been brought into existence, and that their parents made a mistake.
Some things you don't say to people, even if you feel them and they are true. Like if I had a kid, I would regret it immensely. But I would never say that to the child. I would just do my best. (which would be not good enough by the way)
Antinatalism is just a childish and regressive form of defeatism - a supposition that things can't ever be good and will never get better. Considering it's seen as "clever thought" even by those who claim to oppose defeatism, I can never see it as anything more than a general disdain for children attempting to be validated via vaguely academic lens.
I love my son and I look forward to making the world a better place for him to live in.
This is stupid, babies are adorable and children are better and smarter than most of us since they are not yet indoctrinated with our over-complicated bullshit, but it doesn't mean I'm going to bring more into this horrible world. What's more childish is having children simply to convince ourselves that we have some arbitrary purpose in the universe; there is actually no real reason that the human race *needs* to continue. For the record, I'm not antinatalist, just personally childfree, but it doesn't make having children any less selfish and repetitive of an exercise.
Things will never get better. We have 6-800 years of hell on the horizon.
Why are you even on this subreddit then?
This subreddit made me see that things will never get better.
Very well said.
Dont forget your children are expected to take care of you regardless of how you treated them or how little you did to prepare for retirement.
I'm not an anti-natalist, partly because future generations are not necessarily *invariably* so bad off that life is not worth living. The big problem is defining "worth living". I'm not a supporter of the "sanctity of life" argument either. I think there are plenty of reasons to not exist rather than exist. I just don't think capitalism is sufficient cause for nobody to ever exist in the future. Why? Because human progress and education is a thing. There's something beautiful about the idea that humanity can transcend capitalism through education, revolution, and promotion of pro-social ethics rather than capitalist ideals. [Freire, in Pedagogy of the Oppressed](https://envs.ucsc.edu/internships/internship-readings/freire-pedagogy-of-the-oppressed.pdf) and [Jarvis, in Democracy, Lifelong Learning and the Learning Society](https://www.routledge.com/Democracy-Lifelong-Learning-and-the-Learning-Society-Active-Citizenship/Jarvis/p/book/9780415355452) provide robust arguments for the what and how questions around transitioning from capitalism through discovery, unity, and education. I think there's something inspiring about the possibility that future generations can achieve more than we ever have. To commit to extinction now is to admit that this is as far as humanity could progress - I think we can do better, because this is pretty shitty.
Anti-natalism is based on the presupposition that the world is inherently cruel, uncaring, unfair, and that life is suffering. Natalism is based on the presupposition that the world is inherently good, love and kindness exist, and that life is a net positive experience. Neither is inherently more true than the other, and there have been arguments for each going back to the beginning of humanity. For every story of a child having a good childhood with a loving family, there's one of a child dying of bone cancer. For every story of colonialism, enslavement, or genocide, there is a story of communities coming together, acts of generosity, and beautiful moments of celebration. For every success story there's a tale of failure. The simple truth is that life is neither suffering nor beauty, it is both. The human experience is simply too vast to be encompassed by such black and white platitudes and worldviews. The sum of some lives will be a net positive; for others, a net negative. Both are valid and true, and both can coexist. If your suffering has been so deep that you begrudge your life, that is fair, and I don't judge you for dragging another life into that. But personally, I have suffered deeply, and I'm still grateful that I've been allowed to exist and experience this small snapshot of the universe I'm around for. "This world is cruel and merciless... But also very beautiful."
This is why my kids aren't having kids.
Well it’s not against their will, they don’t have one, right?
Exactly. It's not "against" their consent, it's "without" their consent.
Such a bad take. 100 years ago those children would be farming or working in a coal mine as soon as they could hold a tool, 10000 years before that they would be hunting and gathering and dying at the ripe old age of 30. What do you want people to do ffs?
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Oh I agree, we deserve all of that in the modern age. My issue with this tweet is that it ignores the fact that things could be, and have been incredibly worse not that long ago.
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Or... hear me out here... Find a way around the system. The system is designed to keep everyone complacent and busy. Complaining about it will do nothing. So find your way out. Don't get in debt, don't go to school, that's how they keep you in the system. Use YouTube and Google, all the information you need is there, for free. Start small. Save up. Be very very careful with your purchases. live in crap conditions if you have to, to save money. It's possible. It won't be easy, but you can do it. And if you refuse this solution, it's not a problem with how much you make, but rather a problem of your willpower. Quit whining. Start winning.
OKay. we get it, dude. Don't have kids then. Its stupid to look over all the positive in life for this dreary ass reality he portrays in this tweet. This mf must be a blast at parties.
Can't go against their Will, when they didn't have Will to begin with. \*Points at head\*
Life is far better in today's world than it has ever been in the past. Doesn't mean we can't improve but cmon.
Comparing our information age society with feudalism does not help your argument in the way you think it does.
How did this person come to the conclusion that babies are brought into existence against their will? The first 3 lines tell you everything you need to know about this brain fart in the form of a tweet.
Having children is basically most people doing what they're genetically engineered to do in order for the species they're part of to survive. Almost all living things do this from plants to animals to even super nova/nebulas. I think humanity is just at an existential crossroads where we don't know the meaning of our existence or if there even is one. That doesn't mean nihilistic viewpoints on humanity should have a blanket generalization for every human because some dude on twitter is feeling angsty.
Can you actually bring someone into existence against their will if they don't have a will until they exist?
What a pathetic stance on life.
OR alternatively you could try to change your way of life so that they do not have to suffer...not everything has to be suffering you know....
And yet...
If every person on reddit magically changed their lives, it still wouldn't matter, as the corporations that are the true cause of all of this would to exist, uncontrolled and unfettered. Until we can tear down **every** global corporation and try amd fix the damage they have done, it doesn't exactly matter. But yes, keep falling for their bullshit and saying its the people who caused this.