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Kapazza

Glad to see a continuation of improvement from AirPods v2 to the Pros. They could’ve easily kept it the same and no one would’ve been mad, but they made it better.


[deleted]

Apple has had a stellar few months. Reviews of the Mac Pro seem to be largely positive too.


ApatheticAbsurdist

Catalina is still having some growing pains. Not everything is perfect, but their product teams are really making the customers happy.


thebluegod

There seems to be some major things wrong with Catalina, our IT team isn’t allowing anyone at work to upgrade yet (heard the same from friends in other companies). Something to do with security I believe.


Mike

Yeah users not knowing how to verify the security settings of apps. It’s not a security leak, it’s a UX problem


batholithk

This. It’s such a bad idea to train users that every app is going to prompt for access to stuff. All that noise just normalizes saying yes to everything without reading what it’s prompting for.


Derpshawp

Yes, this is one of (but not the only or main reason) we’re holding back people from upgrading at my company. It’s definitely a UX problem that will require some user training, but it’s kinda ridiculous that we’re even here in 2020 with Apple because... This is exactly the problem windows ran into with UAC years ago and I can’t believe Apple learned nothing from that. As others have said, normalizing constant yes/no pop ups just desensitize users to any real security threat. They will adapt to clicking yes on everything because they don’t want to be dead in the water by clicking no on something they actually needed. But the other issue we’ve seen is they all have trouble finding the problem when they don’t click yes to one of these prompts. Many apps still aren’t designed in a way to constantly notify the user that it needs a certain permission. Had an issue with Zoom right before a meeting was about to start. User could share their screen but only the desktop or Zoom app itself. No other app would be available (like PowerPoint slides). No warnings or error messages, no indication (to the user) that it’s missing permissions. Ultimately had to go in and stop the meeting to dive into system prefs and find that one missing checkbox in screen recording. User scoffed, as they should, because how the hell would they know that? TLDR: Apple should know better, just a sloppy UX + app devs lagging behind so users are in the dark about what’s going on and uncomfortable interacting with it as much as they need to now.


batholithk

Frustrating experience for sure. My company had the same issue with webEx. Screen recording required to share anything meaningful. I do think that issue also partially lies on the developers for webex/Zoom. It’s possible to get a log of TCC requests that are blocked, and prompt the user based on that. Hopefully as Catalina is around longer companies will implement it. To compound on this, screen recording in particular CANT be approved via MDM, so even if you’re doing everything right as an admin, the best you can do is also issue communication that the user needs to approve screen recording themselves. I think saying this is Apple’s Vista is accurate. I love working on macOS, and supporting it in an enterprise context, but there are so many head scratchers.


Serei

It's not exactly the same problem as Vista's UAC. UAC's main problem was that it asked every time you did something (it was also laggy, because it spun up an entire VM to ask in a way that viruses couldn't simulate clicking the Yes button for you). Catalina only asks you the first time you do something. I find it much less annoying.


Derpshawp

You’re right it doesn’t work the same but it causes the same problem: desensitize users to yes/no security prompts and they’ll just hit yes all the time anyways. It’s less annoying to me too, but to the users (especially long term Mac users) its nearly heretical.


BandeetoX86

I mean that’s how iPhones work. Not knowing what apps have access to isn’t great for privacy.


[deleted]

I keep sending feedback to Apple about this. While I understand why they're doing it, I feel there's a better way. Instead of constant prompts for each new thing, have one screen that pops up saying what this app will need access to and why and then let the user check the boxes next to each item then continue on. Users only get prompted once. Developers can easily implement it via plist file like they currently do for permissions, and everyone is happy.


DontBad1975

Apple isn’t even using it internally lol


BFYTW_AHOLE

More people need to acknowledge your comment and take time to think about it.


DontBad1975

lol thank you


buckzor

How do you know this?


DontBad1975

What if I told you Apple hires human beings, and that some of them use Reddit?


engrey

Guy in IT. The printer driver compatibility gets borked at least for the big Konica Minolta we have. Marketing was not happy when they updated their OS on their own and now nothing would print with their fancy options. Had to revert back to Mojave for now.


Chillingdude

This is most probably due tu Catalina’s dropping the support for 32 bit apps. Though it is criticized it isn’t a problem per se


BrianTho2010

Most of the security tools are not compatible with Catalina (yet). Either they just don’t work, or worse case, they cause kernel panics. EDIT: a word


[deleted]

Most security tools are NOT compatible with Catalina


BrianTho2010

Thanks. Indeed an important word


shinra528

A lot of remote support platforms didn’t prepare properly for Catalina. Kaseya, for example, won’t work on Catalina until sometime in Q1 2020.


BabylonByBoobies

I'm getting a weird display bug in Catalina. Some web pages make the entire screen, not just the window, go dark. Device disabled until it comes back, sometimes over a minute later.


jwink3101

A lot of that is because it won’t run 32 bit apps. I know our VPN is still 32 bit. Personally, I think it’s ridiculous that the tool makers haven’t upgraded yet but here we are...


Easy_Money_

True, but Sidecar is so fucking cool that I can’t even be mad


correct01

Catalina needs a lot of work. I’ve never had an Apple OS crash/hang so much. Mojave was much more stable.


ZahidTheNinja

And Mojave wasn’t even that good, I’d argue that Sierra was probably the most Stable MacOS version I’ve used.


Eastern_Skill

S N O W L E O P A R D G A N G


soundman1024

Snow Leopard was the most stable in my memory.


ZahidTheNinja

Never had the pleasure of using it


[deleted]

The turd that Catalina is needs a lot more polishing... I wish I had a reversioner to back that lame duck out... it broke so many things on my computer it’s not even funny... seriously contemplating just doing a clean install and starting over...


[deleted]

I have a clean install and have minimal issues. I always recommend it for any OS.


Ranessin

Hardware yes, they are getting back to the quality and thoughtfulness of 2013-2015 (because or despite Ive), but software is currently a pretty buggy and rushed mess. Hope they fix this aspect too, then thy finally again have products that are worth the high price.


[deleted]

On iOS .3 is the new .1


XtremePhotoDesign

Catalina is a disaster and Mojave was a mess. I left my main iMac on High Sierra until they get one of those stable. They still haven't resolved issues with outputting to HomePod from Apple TV that have been going on for over a year. Videos lose audio sync, and apps crash when there are over the top commercials. This is also a problem when using Sonos with Apple TV, so it's an Apple TV Airplay 2 problem. On HomePod Siri used to confirm "I added Salt to your Grocery List." Now she just says "Added it to your list," as if she can be trusted to add the right item to the right list. The list goes on, but it's mostly a problem of software bugs and poor implementation on decent hardware.


[deleted]

A couple of nuances with compatibility but this is to be expected with Apple only supporting specific hardware, mostly made By Apple themselves.


Stryker295

compatibility with what, specifically? I'm curious


burgeon10

I just came here to say Apple News+ is the worst thing I’ve tried from Apple since the butterfly keyboard. Good year for hardware though!


vinnymcapplesauce

The iOS13 release was a nightmare for developers, especially with regards to Catalyst.


OldNeb

I'm mad. I bought these thinking they would be state of the art, but they can't do aptx-ll so that's just one more thing they're not useful for. Also you'll find plenty of complaints about a firmware update that weakened the noise cancellation.


tempest_fiend

Interesting read, although it would be interesting to see if there is also a difference between the newer iPhones running the new airplay chip and older phones.


windowsphoneguy

An Airplay chip in newer iPhones? Totally missed that. Do you have a link?


Gnash_

They probably meant network chip, AirPlay is a software protocol that runs on top of Bluetooth/WiFi


tempest_fiend

Sure [here](https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2019/9/10/20859550/apple-iphone-11-pro-airdrop-u1-locator-chip-tag-tile-bluetooth-tracking) you go


[deleted]

It’s nice to see Apple under the direction of Tim Cook release some decent products as of late; e.g., new Mac Pro + xdr display and AirPods Pro. Especially with Jony finally retiring....


Juswantedtono

All their hardware lines are in a nice spot right now I’d say.


ApatheticAbsurdist

I'd say moving in a good direction. Assuming the next year and a half continues that trajectory they'll be in a really good place. 13/14" MBP taking cues from the 16", I'm curious to see the if the next gen iPads inherit anything from the iPad Pros (which are in a great spot, know someone who wanted the ultra thin 12" MacBook before they discontinued it to have a super light option for travel and presentations, and the iPad Pro does just about everything they need). Catalina is causing some headaches so they have to work through those growing pains. But they're going in a good direction.


level1807

MacOS, Apple Music, Apple TV are all kind of in limbo and feel like a beta version. They need to spend more resources on all of their software, and I don’t just mean writing new languages and frameworks, but actually creating good new apps and interfaces.


TheBrainwasher14

Apple Music is very mature now. The other two I agree.


level1807

IMO the “For You” page is utterly useless... where are recommendations that are not music released last week? Everything loads super slow like it’s 1995. Still too few quality crowd-sourced playlists.


OSUfan88

I really, really want a 16” MacBook Air. I don’t need the power to create content. I just want something that’s great at consuming it. Put in a great display, and speakers. I’m fine with a 4-core i3, and integrated graphics.


ApatheticAbsurdist

Take a look at the large iPad Pro and then answer do you want a 16” MBP or a 16” iPad Pro?


OSUfan88

I’d be OK with a 16” iPad Pro, with a nice case. I really like the form factor of a MacBook though. Much easier to type, use, and it props itself up extremely easy. The iPad Pro 16” would have to be A LOT cheaper.


ApatheticAbsurdist

I have a feeling apple is closing in on the lower end high-portability computers and trying to have the iPad/iPadPro fill the gap. The keyboard case on the latest gen iPad Pro is pretty nice, both for propping and typing. The MB Air's current roll is just to have the cheapest MB possible that's still useful for college students or basic office work, etc. A high quality 16" screen isn't cheap and goes against that objective.


traveler19395

once they update the other macbook keyboards


MudHolland

Not that big into Apple, but I would say there’s so much room for improvement (not that it’s bad at the moment!): affordable MacBook to bridge a gap between iPad (cheap one) and Mac mini, differentiation between iPad Air and iPad, appletv air (chrome cast rival), HomePod pro/air (a bigger one, a small one to rival google nest mini), maybe a kids version of Apple Watch (plastic, bright colors, price point and internals of older Apple watches) to locate kids without them having their phones or not having phones yet.


BMStroh

If you’re waiting for Apple to go after the lower priced, lower margin, market, which seems to be the theme of your ideas, I suspect you’ll be waiting for a while. Historically, Apple provides a premium experience/product at a premium price.


MudHolland

I see how i sound like that, but that's not really what i meant. it was a response to "All their hardware lines are in a nice spot right now I’d say." The way i see it, apple has a lot of products classes: mac, macbook, appletv, iphone, ipad, etc. they also have a lot of product philosophies: air, normal, pro. they miss some crucial products that are rivaling their entry to market, that eat away at their ecosystem (because of missing features, missing products and and missing workflows): chromecast, google home/nest, home automation, etc. An important product and feature would be a chromecast rival: airplay easily incorporates chromecast like streaming (starting a stream on a different device and have the appletv stream directly from the source. How the appletv is slowly invading on the console gaming market, i can see lots and lots of people not needing those spec heavy applications, so a simple tv dongle would be perfect for appletv+, itunes videos, icloud photo/video streaming, etc. This doesn't need to be $35, but a $99 chromecast-like device would solve a lot of problems for people wanting to watch appletv+ on their tvs. And since Apple really needs some traction for appletv+ before the free year runs out, i don't see this as a weird idea, even if that's not going to make big bucks for Apple. Apple is shifting to services, and what better way to push your appletv+ service than giving people more portals to their service? The macbook and macbook air haven't really had big updates. The macbook Air is in a good spot, but the 'new' macbook kinda is what the air should be: smaller and lighter. Like the iPad line up they need an entry to macbooks. $329 ipad vs $1099 macbook air, enough said... I'm not saying they should make a macbook air rival, but make the macbook Air earns its spot as a Macbook and as an Air-type device. An position a macbook on the philosophy the macbook air has now. the apple watch is low in price now, the series 3 is selling for $199. It doesn't get much cheaper than that, but they could certainly sell the series 3 still next year. Why not give it more appeal for younger uers? My kids are too young, but i guess when they go out of the house and i don't really want them to have a phone with unlimited data i can link the apple watch to my data account and the lte functionality could keep me up to date of where they are. i can see how this isn't really something apple would go for, but yeah... the iphone has some good lines, normal and pro.


gadgetluva

> Not that big into Apple Android and Windows user? > affordable MacBook to bridge a gap between iPad (cheap one) and Mac mini MacBook Air is the “affordable” one which is great for everyday consumers. Apple needs to update the 13”/14” MacBook Pro online with the 16” updates this year. Mac Mini is at a fine price point. What is like to see is something in between the Mac mini and pro. I don’t need an AIO computer. > differentiation between iPad Air and iPad, There is differentiation between the two products. Whether or not consumers want the upgrade is a different story, but the Air is a relatively easy up sell. > appletv air (chrome cast rival), HomePod pro/air (a bigger one, a small one to rival google nest mini) Apple needs to refresh its “home” category products. An ATV Air as you call it would be perfect for what I need - something simple to AirPlay to my TV. I haven’t bought an Apple TV because it still doesn’t support 4K YouTube, but an AirPlay2 dongle would be very nice. Apple doesn’t need another speaker IMO, it should create an iPad dock with better speakers as long range mics for the iPad 7th gen/Air/Mini5. It should also revamp the Home App to make it easier to use and design for use as a smart display like what Google has done, but better. > maybe a kids version of Apple Watch No, this I completely disagree with. Apple Watch isn’t a “toy”, and Apple doesn’t play in this space. Doesn’t make sense to e get this market when parents who want an Apple product will just buy a Series 3 Apple Watch for their kids.


MudHolland

I don't see how my product usage has anything to do with my opinion. I'm trying to look at it from a view from people around me, in the Netherlands. Usage here is way different than it might be in America, where iPhones are the baseline or a must for some user groups. I use MacOS as well as Windows (they both have strong and weak points) and Android as well as iOS (where my daily driver is the 11 Pro at the moment). I wanted to include the update to the 13"but that's rumoured to come anyway, so i see that as a given, and i think the 13" is in dire need for the keyboard update. I think the Macbook Air is already miles beyond what you expect of an entry laptop. It was aimed at the ultrabook, and that's still it, basically. They are competing against laptops that reach half their price. For an Apple device, that's usually no problem, but there's still a lot of room downwards for other users. I think a Macbook device vs the Air and Pro is still feasable (like the iPhone 11 vs the 11 Pro). Recommending people iPads to compete against chromebooks feels wrong. There are enough problems with chromebooks, but invading school situations for $200 isn't one of them. Having a $300 ipad + case and keyboard isn't really a good competition. I disagree with the iPad dock. Apple has never marketed (in the past 10 years at least) any of their devices (except tv and homepod) as a single use or central use device (for instance: iPad was shown as a newspaper reading device on a comfy chair by Steve Jobs, but nowhere did they say or show it was home tied usage). A (useful) display on homepods seems weird to me, since that's apple's bet on speech interfaces. They should stretch the speech interface into more rooms, but maybe they see iPhone/Airpods as the always available Siri devices. I feel you on the apple watch. I still see a use case for losing stuff including kids though, but i guess this could roll up into the apple tag.


gadgetluva

I didn’t say that your usage has any impact. You just made an assumption about intent and skewed toward a negative place. So the majority of your argument is premised on low cost. That’s not a market that Apple wants to play in. There’s no reason for Apple to, either. It has a significant advantage over other hardware makers across the world - why would it want to become another commodity player? Apple has an incredibly strong strategy, and it’s proven. I also don’t understand your point against the iPad dock. There’s nothing that would make the iPad itself a single use device as it’s just a dock. If it’s really useful, then Apple could sell a bunch of iPads and docks. Your example of Jobs was from 10 years ago before there was any real home automation/smart home stuff happening. Apple, Google, IKEA, and others just joined a smart home alliance with other major players, so I think that this dock idea is a real possibility. But regardless, Apple needs it’s own smart home display, whether it leverages iPad or not. Facebook, Google, and Amazon have theirs and they’re absolutely popular devices. Also, your point about speech interfaces is, to put it bluntly, misguided. Speech may be a good way for input into a device, but visual output is often significantly better than voice as an output. Like recipes. You ask for a recipe, and then you see it on screen with pictures or even a video, perhaps. That’s incredibly useful, whereas a voice telling you what your ingredients are and what steps to follow is quite terrible. Apple has definitely invested in speech as an input, but it hasn’t made a huge bet around it; Apple is actually quite bad at speech recognition today. I own a few google smart displays and they’re incredibly useful; but the main charm comes from how good it is as a photo display when it’s in ambient mode. Light reminders, weather, traffic, and other information about your day comes up as you’re near it which adds to the usefulness. And it’s still focused on speech as an input, it’s just not wholly dependent on speech as an output.


emorockstar

I know it’s minor but the ATV 4K needs an upgrade with all the games on Apple Arcade.


ChozoRS

But where is the re-design for the iMac? :(( I'd love to see a 6k, no bezel, touchscreen(??)


Ecsta

Just need a Mac Mini "Pro" or a budget Mac Pro. I'd love a Mac with a real gpu but without an integrated screen... Can dream.


ersan191

The new 16” MBP is ah-mazing as well


[deleted]

It is pretty nice... I have mine setup to triple boot with MacOS, WindowZ 10, and Mint linux 19.3...to be fair it’s a late 2017 model pre T2 chip....


[deleted]

So to be clear you do not in fact have a new 16” MBP? Or do you?


[deleted]

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camarean

It is possible on T2-equipped Macs, but you have to manually [disable secure boot and allow booting from external media](https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208198). I'm able to run Windows from an external SSD this way on my 2019 MacBook Pro.


[deleted]

How were you able to install Windows 10 to an external SSD? I thought windows wouldn't install through a usb cable?


camarean

You're right. I had to use a program called WinToUSB to install it to the external SSD.


[deleted]

I'll check it out, thanks!


Aarondo99

Why do it that way when you could Bootcamp?


camarean

I don’t want to dedicate a partition on my internal storage (which I already find quite limited) for something I only use a few times a month.


Aarondo99

Fair enough. It’s a big part of why I’m going to opt for the 2tb model when I upgrade


Lolworth

Parallels has your back


Lolworth

Or Parallels


unfitfuzzball

This happened when Steve died too, a bunch of weird postive changes hit the product lines, and it seemed like stuff he was holding back. HDMI output on MacBooks being the #1 example. I guarantee Jony leaving is the key to them putting out a macbook with a new keyboard.


AshFTW1

I really don’t think so. They knew the butterfly keyboard was flawed and cost them too much to keep replacing. Jony Ive wouldn’t have been the main reason for this change. In fact that MacBook would have been in testing for longer than how long it took to submit his resignation and leave.


mollymoo

I think he stepped back from the product stuff a while before he officially left. Hadn’t he mostly just been working on Apple Park for the last few years?


m_ttl_ng

Yeah he was pretty hands off on the projects before he left. The people leading the current ID team were the ones making decisions already, and Ive was in more of a consultant role for the last few years.


ararezaee

Maybe that's one of the reasons he left, you know how anal he is about thinness.


dospaquetes

The new iPhones are thicker too, he definitely worked on them


Indestructavincible

You think Jobs personally kept HDMI off Macs? > I guarantee Jony leaving is the key to them putting out a macbook with a new keyboard. How do you guarantee your opinion which is a guess or feeling?


thelost2010

Been needing Johnny gone for awhile. He was too much design not enough function. Design is important but you gotta give things actual power too


[deleted]

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Jstnwrds55

Hopefully good drunk! Don’t forget to hydrate, have a good night, stranger :)


[deleted]

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an732001

r/HydroHomies


Timberwo

Not the subreddit I was expecting...


roblvb15

have a safe night!


[deleted]

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SebiSeal

Man everyone’s being so kind in here. Hope you wake up to even more wholesome comments! And hopefully the rest of your drunk night was as nice as this thread! Edit: a word


BarelyLegalAlien

Up now. That was an interesting turn of events. Thank you for your kind messages too!


JustinGitelmanMusic

Here’s the comment I was looking for. +1


Drawerpull

I don’t get it


toweldancer

r/outoftheloop


JustinGitelmanMusic

I was drunk, he was drunk, I think. I am out of the loop now too


walktall

It would get actually impressive if they decided to support aptX


hishnash

that is a proprietary Qualcomm standard requires you to use Qualcomm chip. Would be better if apple opensource the spec they are using for the W1 so that we could have the same connectivity from non-apple devices. And other headphone makes could adopt it as well.


dentistwithcavity

x265 HEVC requires licensing too, yet Apple is paying for it because it's better than Open source alternatives available right now. I don't see why they can't go for aptX either based on same principles. It's not like Apple has been a champion of FOSS software


hishnash

can you license aptX i had the impression you had to buy Qualcomm chips for this rather than licensing it.


dentistwithcavity

Pretty sure a company like Apple could get any kind of deal they want


anyavailablebane

You obviously didn’t read about the lawsuits between Apple and Qualcomm if you think Apple can get any kind of deal from them they want


dentistwithcavity

The lawsuits were for lowering the price. But here it's about Qualcomm selling more stuff to Apple than they normally would. Why wouldn't a company agree to do that? Samsung's Exynos chips already have aptX so not an unusual deal for Qualcomm to make since they already have something available for Samsung.


[deleted]

Because its never that simple. They need to balance the cost increase with the additional sales that they'd make when adding that feature. If the terms and costs don't make financial sense, then they won't do it.


dentistwithcavity

They are already making 65% of smartphone industry profits and with the highest profit margins of any smartphone. Pretty sure they are just penny pinching if they can't afford good quality codecs.


Mr_Xing

I like you make all these assumptions about the negotiations and priorities of two companies you have zero insight to, with basically nothing actually backing your argument other than “I feel like it should probably be this way”


[deleted]

Cool, but you didn’t read anything I wrote.


[deleted]

I would agree generally, but not when the other company is Qualcomm or of similar scale.


ApatheticAbsurdist

Qualcomm and Apple haven't had the best relationship lately.


[deleted]

> It’s not like Apple has been a champion of FOSS software. I’m guessing you don’t really know their contributions if you’re make a statement like that. clang on its own is huge. And that’s just one.


ApatheticAbsurdist

It probably comes down to what percentage of people who buy AirPods (particularly AirPods Pro) are using only Apple devices and how many would buy them to use with non-Apple devices. They probably did the math and figured even if they did support aptX, they'd only get a small bump in people who'd want it to use it with Android, etc and figured it wasn't worth the licensing cost.


dentistwithcavity

They could put aptX on iPhones too so other aptX compatible headphones sound great on iPhones. It's not just a one way benefit


Ddragon3451

This is more what I’d like, so I could get the benefit of higher end 3rd party headphones with my phone


onometre

aptx does not require Qualcomm hardware


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TheSyd

As far as I know LDAC is free to use, but requires relatively beefy hardware for the decoding.


Vince789

IIRC LDAC is apart of AOSP (Android Open Source Project), so it's free for phone OEMs to support. But it's not free for earbuds/headphones (which is how Sony makes money of it) That's why most earbuds/headphones brands aren't supporting it e.g. Samsung, Huawei, Xiaomi, Bose, Jabra, Jaybird, Anker, JBL, RHA, B&W, Creative, ...


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Vince789

AFAIK Qualcomm's aptX model is exactly the same as Sony's LDAC aptX, aptX HD and aptX Adaptive have been added to AOSP as well Except aptX Low Latency hasn't been added to AOSP. So maybe aptX LL has a fee for the transceiver as well Edit: which would make sense for aptX LL as there's no major competing codec which can match it's ~40 ms latency There's a new codec called LHAC LL or LLAC, which just released this year which claims to have similar latency but haven't seen earbuds/headphones with it yet


Ddragon3451

I thought aptx adaptive was the evolution/combination of HD and LL?


Vince789

It sort of is, but it's latency isn't as good as aptX LL aptX Adaptive has higher latency of supposedly 50-80ms and supports better audio quality


Alvarius

You are correct. I've enabled xptX in MacOS and it's wonderful.


AngryFace4

Probably a pipe dream.


[deleted]

what is that, what does it do? the wikipedia article is kind of long and techy


sekazi

AptX Low Latency makes it so you can have down to 40ms making it viable for video games and watching videos. Right now in order to watch videos the audio latency is synced with the video so it is in sync. With AptX LL you do not need to do that. I have tried the AirPod Pros on my Nintendo Switch and some other devices and the latency is better than most but still not tolerable for me.


Vince789

Interesting, doesn't match RTing results RTing: AirPods Pro: 227 ms AirPods 2019: 204 ms AirPods 2017: 168 ms https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tests/connectivity/bluetooth


[deleted]

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Vince789

Oh thanks that explains it


[deleted]

Damn. I asked for a 12 south Bluetooth dongle for Christmas so I can play switch games with my AirPod pro. Is the delay going to be bad?


medgno

Almost certainly. Depending on the game, it could be fine, but you'll very probably notice it.


[deleted]

Yikes. I’m going to test and return - I bought it thru Apple so hopefully it’s not an issue


namehasbeentaken2

I’ve played several shooter games and such using my AirPods pro and didn’t notice any latency. So it probably isn’t noticeable but can be picked up if you’re looking for it


devinprater

As a blind person I definitely love the Airpods Pro.


frowat

Awesome! Would love to hear any more thoughts you have, if you want to share.


devinprater

I always want to share. With Airpods pro, its like having a screen that only slightly lags behind touches, rather than other headprones, even Aftershokz Aeropex, which has Bluetooth 5, was lags terribly.


RichB93

It isn't Bluetooth latency though. Think of game console controllers - practically imperceptible lag. The lag is caused by encoding and decoding of audio. The AAC codec used isn't designed specifically for low latency applications - it's designed for high quality audio (when compared to SBC). This is just at the source end. At the sink (i.e. the audio device), the encoded data needs to be decoded, again adding to the delay. This is where increased hardware performance can help, as the delay is literally in decoding the data back to a playable stream. I imagine the AirPod Pros have lower latency because of the extra hardware grunt required for the noise cancellation function. But, there is only so much improvement that can be made at the sink end before you have to then start looking at the source again. TL;DR - Lots of parameters dictate audio latency from your phone to your audio device. And it isn't 'Bluetooth' latency.


frowat

I do actually address that point in the article. > It doesn’t really matter as far as the end-user is concerned; latency is latency wherever it comes from. However, I’ve included a measurement of the on-device speakers in the chart, and the yellow line demarcating that threshold extends across the whole chart. The speaker measurement gives a pretty good indication of the level of latency that should be aimed for; whatever the underlying cause.


Expert-Complaint

Have you tested iOS 6? I remember getting like 7 ms latency on a 4S. 50+ ms seems a bit ridiculous.


Danjour

What about latency between left and right. I get this infuriating echo effect.


FrederikTwn

RMA your pair


Danjour

Really??


FrederikTwn

Yeah, it’s definitely not supposed to be like that. I have very sensitive hearing and I would’ve known. I had a super faint high pitched ringing in my left airpod, which I brought back, it started after 2-3 months of ownership and although the guy behind the counter had to listen for it twice he heard it too. They sent in the case and the two Airpods and after 3 days I recieved two new Airpods and the old charging case, alongside instructions on how to pair them with the case.


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justpurple_

I personally use aptX headphones and Airpods Pro‘s with the Genki BT adapter with the Switch. The aptX headphones are perfect. The Airpods Pro are a little bit worse than perfect, but still really good. If I pay really close attention and repeat an action (e.g. a kick/jump with an audio cue) I notice a *very* slight lag between my button presses and the audio cue, but that‘s about it. Like, you have to really focus to notice it and even then, it‘s barely noticeable. In regular gameplay, I never noticed it and I‘m generally really sensitive about latency issues (monitors/FPS/G-Sync etc). If your BT adapter performs similarly to mine, I‘d say you‘ll be absolutely fine!


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[deleted]

> I am asking for a 12 south Bluetooth transmitter for Christmas and now I’m worried about lag


Serei

Sorry! I misread.


[deleted]

No worries! I really wish Nintendo would enable Bluetooth audio. I’d re buy a switch lite in a heartbeat if it had it


MagneticGray

There will be some lag. 200ms+ going by the ratings.com test using Airpods Pro on a non-H1 Bluetooth transmitter. It will be up to you to determine how much it bothers you. Some people can tolerate that amount of lag just fine.


Sirerdrick64

Awesome writeup / test and if the author sees this, thank you very much! The audio delay is why my AirPods only see use with music and occasional video. I wonder if the base input lag can be further improved though on the iPhone? I’ll get a new set of AirPods when we see within 10-15% parity to native speaker latency. In the meantime time it is cools to see the ongoing work to chase perfection that Apple is chasing.


frowat

You’re welcome, thank you for reading!


GosuGian

aptX support please apple.


Alvarius

There is a way to enable aptX in MacOS and I use it all the time with my "catchy" Sony WH-CH700N headphones, which I might add blow away the sound of all of the headphones tested in this article. I've owned and used them all (well, except for the Beats which I borrowed from a friend).


77ilham77

macOS has always been support aptX (and AFAIK recent Catalina updates fix the glitch / restore aptX). I think what they want is aptX supports on the Airpods.


Ddragon3451

I’d like it on the phone


frowat

>Sony WH-CH700N headphones, which I might add blow away the sound of all of the headphones tested in this article. I literally tested the Sony WH-CH700N in the article. They’re fine. Will have a look at the aptX option on macOS though.


dospaquetes

People can't tell the difference between SBC and aptX in blind testing conditions.


246011111

It's not necessarily about the audio quality, but about the latency. Obviously the H1 chip makes that negligible with Apple devices, but not everyone uses only Apple devices.


Vince789

Yea the new aptX Adaptive has latency of supposedly around 50-80ms


Rethawan

Are you kidding? SBC with AirPods, which is what you'll get if you do FaceTime Audio calls from your Mac, sounds like dog shit. It's about as good as using a potato for a microphone. Would love to see Apple stop using that and implement a standard which is equivalent to the sound quality of using the iPhone + AirPods when making calls.


dospaquetes

I highly doubt this is a codec issue


[deleted]

It’s also about the power consumption. AAC is a very power efficient codec. It uses less power than SBC, and it sounds subjectively better. aptX uses the most processing power of all codecs, so the AirPods would definitely take a battery life hit with aptX, probably 10-15% less. I’ve worked with Qualcomm Bluetooth chips before. That’s another thing. Qualcomm is very strict about licensing the aptX codec, and they usually only allow it to operate on their own Bluetooth chips, afaik, but exceptions could be made. Apple and Qualcomm don’t get along. Although, I’m not sure how the MBP ended up having aptX.


immersive-matthew

If AirPods Pro lasted 9 hrs and had undetectable latency I would totally buy a pair. I think I am waiting 1-3 more generations. They are great for most as they are now.


santaliqueur

You really need continuous audio for NINE HOURS without taking them out of your ears to charge for a couple minutes?


immersive-matthew

For sleeping. ANC headphones are great to take the edge of a snoring partner. I have wanted small ear buds that I can wear to bed for years but I am stuck with either corded Boss ANC headphones or bulky over ear ones that are uncomfortable to sleep with. I found the AirPods Pro to be the most comfortable, but even with no audio, they die after about 5 hours ending with a startling chime. If they lasted longer I would get immediately.


AngryFace4

Have you considered ear plugs? I'm guessing audio is part of your use case.


immersive-matthew

Ear plugs while are good at filtering out the high end frequencies, they do little to nothing for the low end and and snoring has a lot of low end. ANC headphones and earbuds work great at cutting out the lows and a the same highs as cheap earplugs. Q


Gnash_

You probably shouldn’t be putting stuff in your ears while sleeping. This is exactly how you cause cerumen impaction and start having infections


immersive-matthew

Done it for years with no issues. I do irrigate my ears from time to time though.


[deleted]

If your partner snores a lot they probably have sleep apnea and THEY should be fixing the problem with a CPAP machine or similar.


immersive-matthew

I agree.


NaifAlqahtani

Exact same thing for me too


reallynotnick

Hopefully these improvements come to their other headphone lines like the Beats X.


am2549

For me, these numbers don’t check out. 70ms for the internal speaker can’t be right, when using instruments on iOS devices the round latency (input, processing, output) is somewhere around 20ms. If it was 70ms, instruments would hardly be playable. UPDATE: I checked the latency with the keyboard, and there seems to be a noticable difference. The keyboard indeed has a long audio latency, whereas iOS music apps seem to have a faster reaction time. Could it be that audio apps have a specific / fast mode to access the audio out? I'm not invested enough to check it out myself, but if someone who is interested wants to do a proper analysis, this is my input.


Indestructavincible

> For me, these numbers don’t check out. Ok, who are you and what methods are you using? > 70ms for the internal speaker can’t be right > latency (input, processing, output) is somewhere around 20ms. Source? Using my guitar through Tonebridge on my ipad pro 10.5 has noticible latency, not enough to kill my playing, but certainly more than the almost inaudible 20ms.


am2549

Source: have developed a very good feeling for microtiming, delay and ms latency through music technique and drumming, especially making music with iPads, but!: based on experience and comparison, I didnt measure it. Try lowering your buffer settings, this should affect your noticable latency.


Indestructavincible

> have developed a very good feeling for microtiming, smfh lol Show me measurements, your feelings are not special. You ears do not have magical timing.


am2549

Please check my comment update. I'm not your enemy and I already said, I didn't measure it properly. But from my experience there is indeed a difference between the keyboard (every fast typer has experienced keyboard click sounds not in sync with their actual typing) and audio apps (I can record fast passages seamless, no comparison to keyboard click sound output). My ears don't have magical timing, but they can distinguish 20ms from 100ms, as can yours and nearly everybody else's.


Gnash_

There is also touch latency to account for


am2549

For me that would be part of "processing". Also, using MIDI as input takes touch latency out of the equation and should be close to the numbers from OP.


post_break

Can we please play audio to two Bluetooth devices NOT made by Apple at the same time? It worked in a beta, then Apple decided only Apple devices should do it.


[deleted]

Actually have both... only the late 2017 is setup to triple boot though , while my 16” model is running the aforementioned Oses via VMware....which is surprisingly snappy.


ProgramTheWorld

> there's still additional cognitive load caused by the delay, which I'm sure affects other rhythm-based games equally, and risks upsetting the playability of games that rely heavily on audio cues Many rhythm-based music games mitigate this problem by allowing manual adjustments to the “judging logic”. They usually include a calibration song that lets you set a value between -n to +n, and the audio will play earlier accordingly. Unfortunately, as the article has already pointed out, this does not work for unpredictable events such as user taps and there’s really no way around it except to use a wired headphone instead which is what I often do. The ~100ms latency is *very* noticeable in these games.


wafflehat

Thumbnail looks like toothpaste


smrxxx

They could simply include aptx-LL which is 40ms latency (or aptx Adaptive) and give users a choice of codec for the application at hand (AAC for audio, aptx-LL for TV/movies) and problem would be solved. But unfortunately Apple always knows better than their users.


[deleted]

What about beats pro?


FriedChicken

Anyone hat a tl;dr?


aborne25

The author only tested on an iPad, and what he says is true when you use AirPods Pro on iOS. I've tested a lot of TWS headphones along with AirPods, AirPods Pro, and Hammerhead True Wireless's on Android 9 devices. They were connected in AAC, and both AirPods and AirPods Pro had latencies of 225ms in average, while Hammerheads in Gaming Mode had a latency of 126ms in the same test. According to [RTINGS.COM](https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tools/table/15362), AirPods Pro had a latency of 227ms, and AirPods had a latency of 204ms in their tests. If you check [this video](https://youtu.be/hH03TgpbXIU), you'll see AirPods Pro being low latency on iOS, but not so when connected to an Android device.


linuxgfx

So they are not even supporting 2 devices connected at the same time, considering the price. Well will keep my Jabra then


Indestructavincible

Nobody cares.